Guest post on Timeouts

Some of you may have noticed occasional comments from Sharon Silver, the Mommy Mentor. Sharon runs a parenting consultancy called ProActive Parenting that deals specifically with discipline of toddlers and preschoolers. Did your ears prick up yet? Mine did, because the toddler age is notoriously hard to discipline. Haim Ginott stuff works fabulously on 4-year-olds, 8-year-olds, 15-year-olds, 20-year-olds and your co-workers, but there isn't much in it that's concrete enough for a 16-month-old. The gap between baby and big kid is long, and I haven't found a lot of discipline techniques that aren't either punitive and focusing on control, or comforting but laissez faire.

So when I saw that Sharon concentrates specifically on that age group, I definitely wanted to look more at what she's doing. Her philosophy is that discipline is always better than punishment, and that parents need to be teaching their kids skills for living. She says, "Discipline expresses a parent's boundaries with the emotional volume turned down." She's been working on this age since her own boys (now adults) were that age, and has come up with some solid techniques.

She offered to write something for Ask Moxie, so I tossed her a reader question about timeouts. The question is from Rosemary:

"I’ve got a 20 month old boy who is telling me he’s “Big Boy Mummy, look!” as he trundles his way through life.  He is in child-care 5 days a week and he loves going there (literally runs out of the door in the morning) My husband and I having been having a long (like 6 month long) conversation on behaviour, discipline, limit setting, exploring etc and the techniques or policies that we want to use.  No brainer – smacking is out for us.  So, that leaves time out as the next most popular strategy but we have one problem.  It just feels so darn wrong to both of us.  We know enough as parents to trust our instincts, and normally that has worked for us. But, I’m starting to doubt my judgement on this as many people whose parenting styles I admire swear by time out.   I’m not sure it is the best fit for my son.  He feels things so deeply and he is attached to us like duct tape (which is just how I like it) and I know how scared he gets when he thinks he has lost us.  He is quite happy to roam around and explore as long as he knows where we (or his child carers) are.

Taking some quiet time to calm down, I understand.  But why does it have to be removed from everyone, sitting on the bottom step or in another room and staying for a certain number of minutes.  What is time-out supposed to be achieving?  No one has given me an explanation I can really understand yet.  All the explanations I’ve heard still seem to come back to one thing:  I’m more powerful than you, and I’m going to exercise that power to banish you from my presence. I understand that he needs us to be in charge and that I actually do have power  and need to exercise it in his own interests sometimes (and we actually run a tight ship around here).  And I guess, deep in my heart of hearts, I feel like taking him to another room and dumping him for some time until he’s got himself under control just feels like plain abandonment.  I can remember times as an adult when I’ve been out of control, and if my friend or husband had just walked away from me, I don’t think it would have helped me calm down much at all.

And here’s the big kicker.  What do I use if I don’t use time out?  We’ve had lots of success with him so far, just by really listening to him, actually teaching him to do things, using lots of modelling of positive behaviour, acknowledgement of his effort and when he manages to control himself, and trying to remove the big sources of frustration and power struggles.  We try and focus on the big things and let the small ones go through to the keeper.  But will that work as he gets older?

Here's Sharon's answer:

Your post raises some really important questions about timeout, and that’s great, even if other moms don’t like that you raised the issue. Your parental intuition told you that timeout wouldn’t work well for your child. Listening to your intuition is always a good thing, even if the only result is a deeper investigation into the topic. My post also includes a response to spanking as a form of discipline. You said you don’t spank, however there are others who do.

As a society we’ve learned a great deal about preschool behavior since the days when we were being raised.

We’ve learned that parents really are a child’s first teacher. We’ve learned, that just like adults, the way you speak to a child determines whether he fights with you or listens to you. We’ve learned that a child’s foundation, the core of who he is, is being built during early childhood. A child learns whether or not her emotions are accepted or punished. She learns whether self-control is managed for her, by spanking or consistent punishment or she learns, by how her parent deals with defiance, that ultimately, she needs to control herself.

Based on all that knowledge, plus the love parents have for their child, I wonder why anyone would spank in this day and age?

As your child’s first teacher what lesson do you hope to send your child when you spank, even if done lightly? Unfortunately by the time your child becomes a preschooler he will have learned that the way to get what you want from another person is to hit them. Is that what you intended to teach?

Timeout for little people has some issues as well, let me explain.

After 17 years of teaching parenting and 29 years of raising kids, in my opinion, timeout for preschoolers, no matter how long they sit, just doesn’t work well for little people and here’s why.

Timeout was designed as a time…out for both parent and child to take a short break so they can get calmer and then come back together to resolve the situation.

That’s not the way timeout is being used today. These days timeout is being used as the “acceptable” way we punish our children, and there’s a big difference between the two.

Parents usually begin using timeout around 18-20 months because normal developmental defiance has begun to appear. Every parent I’ve ever worked with started out with the best intentions for using timeout. The parent starts out being calm, gets down to eye level, says the right words, and is as loving as possible on the way to timeout. Then as the child approaches two or three the way a parent uses timeout begins to change.

The parent’s best intentions then squarely meet the child’s developmental stage and temperament and a collision happens that goes something like this.

The child refuses to listen or cooperate; he wants what he wants. Now’s the time to teach the child about his behavior, but the screaming the child does causes the parent’s brain to become confused. The confusion from the crying, screaming or constant demanding stops the parent’s ability to think clearly about what to do next. Not being able to decide what to do next makes the parent frustrated or angry, and can cause yelling to begin. The parent is unconsciously hoping that the yelling will be the magic key that when inserted into timeout will end this, sooner rather than later, so this can be done.

Unfortunately the yelling upsets the preschooler, possibly to the point of hysteria. I don’t know too many adults that enjoy being screamed at when they’re upset either! The crying causes the preschooler to revert back to a younger emotional place, just to survive the yelling.

You know that emotional place; it’s what’s going on when you say to your preschooler “why are you acting like a baby?” or “stop crying, you're acting like a baby!”

In order to survive the yelling, the preschooler shuts herself down and stops listening.

Ladies, you know this one well; we’ve been accusing men of this for years!

Because the child has difficulty processing her crying, your yelling and thinking at the same time, a preschooler is forced to gain more of the information about the situation from your body language and tone of voice than from your words. And since she’s young and still relies on immature reasoning, what has she learned? All that she has learned is when I cry or don’t do as I’m told, I’m sent away from you—to a place called timeout.

No real learning has occurred. The child has no idea what she’s supposed to do instead. The child was never allowed to try again so she could learn how to manage her emotions and resolve it in a better way next time.

Then the behavior happens again and she’s sent to timeout, again. Her behavior is stopped, for the moment, but she still hasn’t learned how to manage this so it doesn’t happen again, and this goes on day in and day out.

When you see it broken down this way you understand how young a preschooler really is, and you begin to wonder, does timeout work well for preschoolers, is there a better way?

The answer lies in this statement; sometimes the best way to get a child to do something is to speak their language.

I believe that preschoolers need corrections to be made at the preschool level. Don’t forget, your preschooler has only been on the planet for a few years. Even though he’s walking, talking, potty trained and maybe in preschool, he isn’t as old as he looks, especially when it comes to discipline and the ability to change behavior.

Why do I say this, because adults have the ability to use reason and logical thinking; preschoolers haven’t even developed the ability to use logic, and that doesn’t begin until around age 7.

Does that mean you can’t use timeout? No it doesn’t mean that at all. It just means that a better way to use timeout would be to match the concept with a preschooler’s developmental needs.

Just like our computers, I believe that it’s time for “timeout” to get an upgrade!

Here are three things I think need to be included in preschool timeouts.

1. The teaching a parent does needs to be done at the preschool level. An emotional child learns best when information is scaled down to just a few words and the words are something the child can understand even through the tears, words like sit down, no hitting, or use your words, versus that’s not appropriate.

2. The amount of time a child sits in timeout really can be much shorter than 1 minute per age. Having a child sit in timeout for a shorter period of time takes advantage of what I call “child time”, the true amount of time your preschooler can pay attention and hear you when she’s emotional.

3. The ability to “try again” needs to be included with your discipline.

Saying to a child, “you need to try again and show Mommy how you wait for a cookie instead of grabbing one from sister”, needs to be included so a child can learn what you expect them to do instead of what they did.

Deciding how you’re going to correct your child can seem over whelming at times, especially if you and your husband have different points of view or if you feel forced to use something that just doesn’t feel right.

Reading this gave me a big a-ha moment about the need to give the child the chance to correct his/her behavior. That turns the whole situation into a "do over" instead of a big crying scene that just makes everyone feel like a wounded jerk.

Definitely check out Sharon's site www.ProActiveParenting.net, where she has some great free resources (including a PDF about discipline vs. punishment that contains the insightful idea that discipline gives parents choices about how to handle a situation instead of locking them into one course of action) and some awesome paid downloads on a bunch of different discipline topics. She's also doing two parenting seminars in Phoenix, AZ on April 2 and 3, if anyone in the area is interested.

Now you guys know who she is, so when you see her comments here you'll know she's one of us, just a generation ago!

Comments on timeouts, or the difficulties of dealing with the toddler and preschooler years?

Comments

[michaela]

The "try again" idea really is brilliant. I do that sometimes, but not as any specific strategy. Reading this post -- and seeing it as a technique, or as hedra says, one of the tools in my toolbox -- will help me pull it out more often.

My 22-month-old -- another one who loves daycare and is attached like duct tape -- has recently begun giving herself timeouts. Not necessarily when she's done anything 'wrong' - just as part of her imaginative play. Interestingly, she gets that shy, proud smile when she does it; I think at daycare timeouts are only used with the Big Kids. And so when she gives herself a timeout, she is asserting her status as a Big Girl.

Really wonderful post. Thanks, Moxie and Sharon!

[Kate]

This is a great post, thank you!

I am often guilty of expecting my preschooler to think/act logically and to have knowledge that she just hasn't acquired yet. There have been a few incidents lately that have really pointed that out to me--to her, there is no difference between putting a plate of hot pancakes by an open window to cool and putting a pancake on a bare windowsill for the same purpose. Big difference to *me*...but I'm not 3 1/2.

Lately our biggest problem is just listening. Either I am completely ignored (and have to stoop to threatening to take away privileges or bribing with same) or she goes off half cocked (desperate to "help," not hearing that the sheets are in the dryer, not in the closet). My 23 month old, in comparison, is a dream to deal with--when he's by himself and out of her sphere of influence. Cleaning up toys/books should not take 30 minutes of negotiation; games like "racing," "count the legos as you collect them," etc have lost their appeal.

Basically, I feel like a crabby bitch all the time. Anyone got a cure for that?

[Kate]

Oh! and I just wanted to add that I totally agree about the spanking--if I am telling my kids that if they can't touch nicely don't touch at all, how can I possibly *hit* them?!

(FWIW this is sometimes why I use timeout. If I am so worked up that I am afraid of losing it, I put them somewhere else so I can give myself time to simmer down.)

[amy]

How timely for me. I just said to another mother last night that I felt like yelling is the only way my daughter (4 in June) hears me. As I said that, and please go ahead and laugh, I remembered something I thought after watching the Dog Whisperer a couple of times. Cesar often tells dog owners that when their dog is riled up, the dog simply is not in a state of mind to hear their words. The owner must touch them, and when they do, the dog snaps out of it. I told the other mother this and resolved to experiment using touch to get my daughter's attention before I start yelling. We both laughed about it, but I think I'm serious.

Thanks for the guest post!

[paola]

@amy

I love what you said about touch in order to get attention. It seems my 3 year old is much more right on than his mum. Recently when he sees the steam coming out of my ears he switches from little a...hole to this touchy-hugs-n-kisses type, and he is so untouchy-hugs-n-kisses usually. It calms me down immediately and I just want to smother him with kisses. I'm wondering if this is a tactic that pre-schoolers in general use, or perhaps he has copied it from us ( my husband uses this tactic on me to calm me down and it works everytime with me). Anyone else noticed it??

Anyway it is much more 'child friendly' than some of the other tactics I use.

[Michelle]

Kate- I'm sorry, but the last line of your post cracked me up. If you find a cure for feeling like a crabby bitch all the time...let me know! :)

Great post. I also have a hard time getting my 3 year old to stop whatever she's doing enough to listen to me. Seriously, I threaten to take something away or find myself counting to three several times a day.

One little thing that sounds silly, but worked recently is that my daughter LOVES bedtime stories and princesses. So I made up a bedtime story about Princess Sassy Rude who decides to change her behavior and become Princess Fabulous. Part of the story-telling is that we get to the part where we describe the things that Princess Sassy Rude is doing to hurt her friends' feelings, and my daughter likes participating ("Princess Sassy Rude was sticking her tongue out! Princess sassy rude was saying you're ugly!"...) and then we get to the part where DD gets to say all the fun things that Princess Fabulous gets to do because she stopped being sassy and rude. DD will say any wild thing here, and it turns into a sort of game.

But I think the message sunk in a little, because DD told me she wants to be Princess Fabulous today. We'll see...

[Julie]

Thank you for the idea of using touch with my preschooler to get her attention when she is ignoring me - I will try to be more aware of that instead of yelling. We will also sometimes call her by the wrong name, which often seems to snap her out of the "ignore Mom zone" because she NEEDS to correct me.

But I feel like I need something else in my arsenal of good Mom behavior to get her attention when she is just flat-out ignoring me, as it is the single quickest thing that gets my blood boiling. Any other ideas?

Great post today, Moxie and Sharon!

[Katy]

What a helpful post. We're just starting to see signs of "two year old" behavior in our 21 month old. He is generally the most good natured,easy-going guy so it's rare, but every now and then he'll dig his heels in about something. He is also on the autistic spectrum so his needs are a little different. But I will say that his school does such an amazing job with him that I've learned so much about how to discipline him with nearly all positive reinforcement. I see him do stuff at school that I wouldn't even think to ask him to do at home: he will go to wash his hands when asked, puts his paper towel in the trash, goes to the snack table and finds his place mat, then puts his paper plate in the trash when finished, all with a little prompting.

They use a technique called Wait, Ask, Say, Show, Do which I've had a lot of success with at home. Basically when you've told a child he/she needs to do something, like go and wash their hands, you then WAIT (a 5 second pause while you look at them meaningfully), then if they haven't started to move, you ASK - "what do you need to do?" This gives them the power to make the decision. BJ usually looks at me like he's thinking about doing it at this point. Then I SAY what it is I want him to do "Ben you need to go wash your hands" and usually, at this point he does it. If necessary I SHOW him how do it by pointing or demonstrating how something works (you can often skip this step). If he doesn't do it, the last step is DO - this is where you "help" the child do it by putting your hands over their hands or walking them in the direction of the task. Then you praise them for doing it when they show even the least bit of independent action. So it looks something like this:
Me: Hey BJ, it's time to wash your hands
BJ: (no response - keeps playing)
Me: (Wait 5 seconds)
Me: BJ, what do you need to do?
BJ: (looks at me and thinks)
Me: BJ you need to wash your hands
BJ: (starts walking to the bathroom)
I swear BJ will do it on the "SAY" step about 90% of the time - it makes a great party trick when my parents are here! His school says that it gives children time to process the demand and to take control of it instead of feeling nagged by constant repetitions of "You need to wash your hands" which is what we tend to do. It also slows us down to a toddler's pace, giving them time to think about it. It might work better right now because BJ is so young and still eager to please, but it's worth a try!

[Michelle]

I am in Phoenix and I can already tell you I am going to Sharon's workshop!!! This post is incredibly timely as I have a 24-month-old son. He is not talking yet (a whole 'nother post) so he can get very frustrated and upset very easily...we have already read Positive Discipline for Toddlers - and I found that very helpful - but Sharon's advice is incredibly detailed and insightful.

Thank you for inviting her to post Moxie!

[xxxx]

Can anyone talk about how to deal with behavior issues with a 13 month old? When you find yourself angry at a baby, it's pretty intense. But his will is quite strong and he knows what he wants to do and cries if we don't let him, i.e. climbing from the chair onto the kitchen table. Obviously, this is not safe but he doesn't understand that so it just seems like we're using control, i'm stronger than you, when we remove him. Am I supposed to just remove him and then do what with the crying baby? Does he even have the capacity to understand "no", "dangerous", "stop"? I have pretty much baby-proofed the house so that he can investigate and climb and learn on his own but there are some dangers I can't remove. It feels like the way we deal with it now is so important. Sorry if this feels like a hi-jack of the post, it seems so connected.

[hannah]

My friends with older children say their kids don't understand negative commands like "don't do that" but they do understand positive commands. So instead of "Don't grab that power cord" I say "Clap your hands!" to my 12 mo. It sort of works, as does distraction- he's not always thrilled to be removed from a dangerous situation, but if I do it in a cheerful fun way he usually moves on.

My mommy and me leader always says "Timeout is VERY IMPORTANT- for parents." I try to remember that and give myself the break when my son is pushing all my buttons.

[Mommie Mentor]

Hi Michelle,
Guest poster (is that a word?), Sharon here.
You have articulated the exact reason why I created, "No we don't do that", one of the Mini-seminars for purchase on my site.
It's a version of timeout for little ones ages 1-3. Those sweet ones can't talk yet and need words, and loving action to show them that "this is not okay".
This discipline method stops a child in their tracks, tells them what they did wrong, and has them try again, all in 10-30 seconds, yes, it really is that short.
How many times a day does a parent tell a child "no", and that's all there is to it, there's no follow through?
When there's no follow through the child simply misinterprets the "no" as a small slice of parent pie, which is what I call getting attention. This method does the correction so quickly that a parent doesn't have time to get frustrated or angry!
The follow through doesn't have to be intense, or filled with anger, it just has to be consistent. And since parents, myself included, have a hard time being consistent, I created this method using words that allow a parent to "fake it until they make it", if you will. Using the same words, and actions each time you correct behavior is like a transition warning for a child and works beautifully.
I apologize for calling attention to my seminars again, but it's the answer I think you are looking for!
Good luck and thanks for all the kind words! Sharon

[SJ]

as far as timeouts go - we don't use them as described above - when he was 1-2, we did timeouts actually while holding him - he did not like the loss of freedom, but it was the opposite of abandoning him to another room.
Now, closer to 3yrs, that tactic was not working - it became more treat than punishment, so we have switched to timeouts in a chair in the living room or his room - but in either case we are only a few feet away from him, so again, not abandoning, but making it clear that his behavior is not acceptable. Right now we pretty much only use timeouts for hitting - anything else may be frustrating but is generally age appropriate (like taking FOREVER to get dressed in the morning because he must do it all himself...)

I really like the "Wait, Ask, Say, Show, Do" idea, and the try againg - thanks for new tools!

@kate - I have decided that there are some things I just won't care about anymore - if he puts his sandwich on the table directly instead of the plate, fine. But if he wants syrup on his pancakes, or ketchup on his chicken, it needs to be on a plate. That sets up some ground rules but means a few less battles. Also for listening, we remind him to put his "listening ears" on - sometimes just touching his ears a little bit too. I really don't know why it works (and it doesn't always work) but it works at least enough of the time to be helpful. Maybe it's similar to the "Wait, Ask, Say, Show, Do" thing, in that it gives him time to start processing.

@xxxx - he does have the capacity to understand "no" or "not safe", if you teach him. we have as few rules about climbing as possible to be safe, and they include not climbing on the kitchen table. But he was allowed to climb on the coffee table on the living room, but not to stand on it. I have to say that at 13 months I didn't think it would be possible to teach him, but it really was and one thing we did use is time-outs with us holding him if he climbed up on the table, for example.

[Julie]

xxx - I think 13 months you can do some successful distracting with an activity more appropriate and equally appealing. But along with that you should say "no" and explain your reasoning behind it. At 13 months they can definitely understand "no" and their comprehension is also developing rapidly. But don't expect any kind of response that shows comprehesion.

We have found that if we "assume" Alex wants to do the right thing, he often does "of COURSE you want to wash your hands. You're such a good listener and I know you heard me and will do what I've asked." And I agree with the pp about the wait time and the praise when he does it....even if you are moving his body through the motions yourself "Thank you for listening and washing your hands" as you hold his hands under the faucet and rinse them off. It avoids the battle of the wills and gives him a sense that he is cooperative. If he sees himself that way, he usually is that way.

[Charisse]

Right on to Sharon--I have a very stubborn preschooler (about to turn 4) and find that timeout is of very limited usefulness. I do do it for extreme offenses--i.e. hitting someone with obvious intention and refusing to apologize (the apology being the second chance)--but luckily those don't happen very often so it works well as a only-occasional "you've really done it now". But it engenders a LOT of shrieking and she can only deal with about a minute and a half (lifelong tension increaser, hello)...and then I get her and hold her and we talk about it. She had her first timeout in about 6 months 2 weeks ago, and she's still talking about it.

I end up using the socratic method a lot (not so dissimilar from what Katy was talking about) for bad behavior, a la

"Mouse! Did you just grab that toy from your friend?"
Mouse: uh-huh
"Should you do that?"
Mouse: shakes head
"Well, what should you do to make it better?"
Mouse: I should give it back and say sorry (either does that or moves on to: but I DON'T WANT TO)

...and this is where I go 2 directions--the "do it or else [your playdate is over, that toy will have to go away, etc]" makes logical sense, but doesn't work as well when there's somebody else involved...whereas the "I know it's hard but you need to do it--do you need some help?" sticks in my authority-craw but works a lot better. And (confession) we sometimes even use a tangible reinforcement like a sticker or something as the "help". I'm thinking she's getting close to old enough where we can introduce the "how do you think that makes your friend feel?" as part of the dialogue. Do folks have a sense on when that starts to work?

For smaller stuff, we do use more of what I guess you'd call threats, but they're usually directly related to the matter at hand, such as "you can bring your cars to breakfast, but if they're distracting you from sitting in your chair and actually eating, they have to go back to your room".

For attention--this drives me nuts too--I've found it helps a lot to formally request it, and touch and getting down to her level helps too. If I just say "hey Mouse" when she's involved in something it doesn't often work, but if I go over, put a hand on her arm and say "Mouse, I need your attention for a minute" it works a lot better. It's starting to work at more distance too. Then I can proceed to "I need you to answer 2 questions and then you can go back to playing...ok, here's one question: ..." And then, I thank her--seriously--for paying attention when I asked.

I actually thank her for a lot of things--I hope she doesn't grow up and expect to be thanked for just baseline doing what she should do (I worry about this), but it's just waaaay faster and more pleasant than going in a negative direction, given her personality. I rarely have the energy to win a conflict over her iron will, unless it's something that's absolutely essential, and in any case, it can take hours.

@xxxx I think with a 13-month-old you can start praising the good alternative, e.g. "yay, you're staying right there in your chair, woohoo!!" and clapping and making a fool of yourself and then very calmly getting him down if he climbs (and quickquick getting something distracting, which will still work somewhat at this age)...and in another 3 or 4 months you can introduce trying again--but your best bet at this point is probably to make things you need to off limits truly off limits so he can't do them.

[Charisse]

oh my, sorry about the novel...

[Tzipporah]

Oh thank G-d! We so needed this post right now. This makes a lot of sense, and I'm glad I've already got some of this down by instinct.

[Alma]

@xxxx - I used a lot of 'honoring the impulse' at that age. It works very well and has a lot of applicability. (The folks who wrote Becoming the Parent You Want to Be http://www.becomingtheparent.com/all/hp.html suggest this often). So, for example, if Dear Child is pounding on the window with a shoe, you might say "Looks like you want to pound! It's not safe to pound windows" as you go over and stop the shoe/window contact from happening. Then add "We can pound on your pounding bench" and take Dear Child to it. Honoring the impulse (redirecting the energy but staying with the interest)versus distraction (redirecting the energy but choosing a new interest) seemed to me to fit very well with Dear Hedra's "Safe, Respectful, Kind" mantra that has deeply shaped how I approach my relationship to my daughter and how I want her to understand the way we should be in the world.

With your example of the climbing from chair to table, there might be several options like "looks like you want to climb" and moving him to place where it's okay to climb OR "is there something on the table you like?" and turning it into a silly guessing game (is it this? this? this?) while moving him far enough away he can't climb up OR if neither case is applicable, simply "Climbing on the table isn't safe. I will help you be safe right now. I hear how angry/upset you are about this" while you gentle restrain or move him away.

In any case, at 13 months there is a lot of repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.

[Maria]

We have a lot of "do-overs" in my house for my 4 yr old, and it seems to work. If I ask him to hand me a book, and he throws it at me, he has to come pick it up, go back to the bookshelf, and walk over again to me and put it in my hand. I find he does things like that not out of maliciousness (which would earn him a quick trip to the time-out place, for both of our sakes), but because he's trying to be quick. So, I'm trying to reinforce manners, and that doing it right the first time is the fastest way to do something. Some mornings are so bad we go back to bed and start the day over! But that appeals to his silly side, and it's often enough of a break to reset us both.

But the baby....he's seven months and just started cruising, and crawling over to big brother's toys. We've all become masters of distraction to keep him out of trouble! I am dreading the day I find him on the kitchen table; this kid is a climber the way his brother never was.

[Christine]

Thank you thank you thankyouthankyou.

We have been completely stuck with one behavior that drives me up a wall and we had no idea what to do. It's absolutely a behavior that infuriates me...it needs to stop, and I appreciate any new tools we can use, because so far we've been completely ineffective.

And Michelle, my son was pretty much non-verbal at 2. You may already have plenty of help/support, but if you want to talk (our son is 3 and is jabbering in my ear now) about what we did, I'm sure Moxie can put us in touch with each other. It was a really frustrating time for us.

[pnuts mama]

what you all wrote/commented makes a lot of sense to me. i have a feeling my biggest issue (and my husbands) is breaking the cycle of what our role models in discipline were (for me, my mom, for him, his dad). it literally makes me cry to acknowledge that in many ways our worst behaviors/reactions to normal toddler behavior are the exact.same.way. that our mom/dad dealt with us (except for spanking- it's something we both agree is not an option, and save a few instances of pure spontaneous action, we've avoided) and it's terrible. we are just trying so hard to not give her the negative feedback that we both felt as kids growing up from our same-sex parent. which is why i totally relate to what charisse said about over compensating with the praise and thanks and "positive reinforcement"- anyone have any ideas as to what is good positive reinforcement vs. not good?

my worst thing is patience- i can be patient patient patient (him too), and then something stupid will set me off and i blow up and act like an ass. i can so relate to what kate said about feeling like a crabby bitch all the time- my anger issues and my need for control really don't mesh well with the life i need to accept that i have right now, and really aren't conducive to appropriate toddler discipline.

we do time out with pnut for serious offenses, like hitting, and we are very serious with being consistent and that actions should have consequences. but i am glad to read the ideas of "do-over" (which i guess we sort of do, in the sense that we still require her to do the thing that she refused to do after time out is over) and definitely like the idea of "WASSD"- thanks!

[anonforthis]

@Charisse, I think preschoolers are totally ready to understand the "how did that make him feel" idea.

We've recently moved through the following stages (almost wholly cribbed from _Becoming the Parent You Want to Be_):

- "When you took that truck away, it made A. feel sad. I'm going to give it back to him, and you can play with this one" (about 15 months)

- "You took that toy away from A. How do you think he feels? He looks sad/upset/angry....please give it back. Why don't you play with this other truck?" (around 20-22 months, I think)

- (Today - 25 months:) "You took that toy away from A. How do you think he feels? (T. answers: "He is sad!") Yes. What do you think you can do to help him feel better? (T. either gives toy back or resists. If he gives it back, praise and suggesting toy for him to play with. If he resists, we prompt:) Can you give it back, or offer him something else he might like instead? (About 80% of the time he does) Thank you. (T: "He is happy now!")

Of course, there's always the other 20%! And the times when I don't have the energy or focus to go through the whole encounter, and find myself saying things that are truly cringeworthy. But the above kind of interaction, combined with do-overs (starting to help with the whining) and goofiness/distraction (yay, playful parenting!) seem to keep them to a minimum.

And I second Alma's recc. of _Becoming the Parent You Want to Be_ and "honoring the impulse" - that, plus humor, plus gentle physical-plus-verbal redirection, have been extremely helpful.

It is easier with a verbal kid, of course - but even though T. is quite verbal, we just assumed all along that he could understand more than he could say - I think that's true for most kids.

[TheLuckyGal]

The parent educator at the co-op preschool program we did when my DD was 2 suggested the book (booklet really) "Love & Limits: Guidance Tools for Creative Parenting" by Elizabeth Crary. It is a real gem - especially for the toddler / early preschool phases. It is really more of an approach to parenting (e.g. notice and praise the good behaviors) rather than a "discipline" technique, per se. But it does offers concrete strategies for setting boundaries, etc. I often used the "offer alternatives" strategy, as in "you may not climb on the towel bars but you can climb on your climber in the basement or we can go to the park and you can climb there" ... I've recommended the book to dozens over the years. http://www.amazon.com/Love-Limits-Guidance-Creative-Parenting/dp/1884734049

[anonforthis]

Another one that it amazes me to see work:

Parent: "You are doing a lot of (insert infuriating behavior here). Do you need my attention?"

Child (surprised) "Um. Yeah."

Parent: "OK. We don't do xyz in this house. Let's do somethiong else instead. Should it be... belly zerbots?! poot noises?" (Etc.; insert ridiculous giggle-inducing behavior here.)

This of course assumes the behavior is more annoying than dangerous or messy. Messy gets a "Let's get a rag and clean this up together" or the like, while talking about how we draw on paper not the floor, how it makes Mommy sad and frustrated when she sees crayon on the floor, etc. etc. Dangerous gets a redirect and a simple explanation about why it's Not Safe (thanks, Hedra!) and what we can do instead that is safe (honoring the impulse, yadda yadda).

But the flat-out acknowledgment of the need for attention underlying the annoying behavior has, so far, been pretty disarming. (I am, however, waiting for the triumphant "No, I don't!" response, which I'm sure is coming any day now!) Ah, on to the new tools...

[anonforthis]

And thank you so much for the WASSD - it seems like a really good tool to help me control my adult-ish impulse to rush through things.

[anonforthis]

@xxxx: You've already gotten some excellent tips, but I wanted to add one more that worked well for us around 13 months: instituting the idea of Off Limits:

The heater is Off Limits because it's Not Safe - it's hot and can burn you and give you an owie. Grandma's crystal figurine is Off Limits because it's Fragile and to look at, not touch (or touch with one finger only, with a grownup's help). Etc. and with variations as needed.

It seems that the capitalized categories above helped T. a lot - it's not about him, it's about the qualities of the thing/place itself. And at 13 months, pretty much everything we didn't want him dealing with fell in those areas above. Physically redirect, add distraction and humor, and it worked more often than not - plus helped him start to develop an internal compass for safety and care.

[Julie]

@pnuts mama.....in schools we try hard to praise the behavior, not the child. As in, "Thank you so much for doing such great listening on the rug" versus "Thank you to all the good listeners". Kids from very early on are able to label themselves "good" and "bad" just like kids can label themselves "smart" or "not smart". Lauren Resnick from University of Pittsburgh has done a lot of research that shows that smart is something you *get*, not something you *are*. If you work hard and put effort in, you get smart. So instead of telling your child "Oh! You are so smart!" you might want to turn it on its side and say 'Wow. That was a really smart idea you just had. I can tell you put a lot of thinking into it before you got started." By praising the effort, not just the outcome you are showing your child that working hard and thinking hard are the measures of "smart", not just being born that way, or getting the right answer or succeeding at a task with no acknowledgement of what went into that success. For some reason we've noticed that kids, as they get older think that working hard and taking sufficient time on any given task is "not smart" and so they value finishing *first* without putting much effort into it because they think that looks "smart".

So back to your question about good praise versus bad praise....praise the effort they took to do something, not the outcome. Instead of being a "good" listener, praise how hard they worked to listen to you. And always, be specific. "Great job" is vague and not meaningful to young kids. "Great job putting your shoes on....I can tell that with this one you worked so hard to get your heel into it and it's ready for me to tie" is so much more meaningful....and again, praises the effort as well as the outcome.

It's such a subtle difference, but researchers like Resnick are finding that it really does shape how kids learn how to solve problems, how they view themselves as learners and/or problem solvers, and completely eliminates the "well she does well in school because she's smart and I'm not" issue that so many of us remember from when we were in school.

[caramama]

Sorry if this is mentioned already, but I'm so busy today that I haven't read the comments! I never don't read the comments!

While we aren't quite at this age yet, I am again going to plug Playful Parenting, by Lawrence Cohen. He talks about kids feeling isolated when they do things like throwing tantrums and are sent to their rooms, and how that can actually makes things worse for some children (of course depends on the scenerio and child).

Anyway, that book totally changed my perspective on many things, including disipline. I highly recommend it.

[Lisa]

p.s. I'm the anonforthis's above - forgot to input my name last few posts.

[hedra]

I was about to jump in and WOO! all over the 'wait ask say show do' thing, even said to DH 'dang, I need to remember that! write it on my hand!' - then I realized that we used to do that. And it didn't work with either of the first two kids. And I can see where it would be an issue with the other two, also. Dang.

It wasn't the wait, ask, say, or show part. It was the 'do'. I used to do that - gently help or guide. But it ended up just like Sharon said time outs can end up - a punishment. I will MAKE you do it. I will remove your autonomy and your self-direction and your choice. You WILL COMPLY. I gave you chances to comply, and you did not, so now I enforce compliance.

I can sometimes apply it in what is probably the 'proper' way when I need to show a difference in the 'do' - 'how to wash the backs of your hands rather than just the fronts' - but I can't do it when it is just resistance to doing what I asked. Then it's just another punishment.

(The main benefit of it, for us, was likely the slowing down the grownup reaction process - which is a HUGE big deal, IMHO. Just slowing down my reaction allows so much more automatic helping than reacting immediately does!)

Another reason it may nor have worked for us too well is that I have a huge issue with compliance, myself (that is, I want my kids to be compliant so bad it hurts - why can you not just Do. What. I. Say?!). The 'do' becomes all about the compliance side. BUT, compliance also involves submission to someone else's will, agenda, and timing, which means resistance is built in. It's bossy. Granted, as my kids recently said in conversation to each other, parents are bossy. BUT, they don't have to always be bossy, just when it's an emergency. We're trying to dodge the bossy thing, but still get results. Sometimes we flounder with that, but almost always, it is because we're still trying to get COMPLIANCE instead of cooperation, or we're mixing the methods, or alternating them, which is a total mind-warp for the kids.

We're subsituting everywhere we can - instead of compliance, cooperation. Two reasons:

1) If I try to rely on a method that they'll outgrow, I'll have to figure out when they outgrew it, and deal with the re-education of everyone including me when they do. Better to start with one they won't outgrow. I won't get compliance from a 15 year old, and I sure as heck can't walk him to the shower and force him to wash his armpits. So I start with the other end - what would work at the near-adult stage, and walk it back down the developmental scale to the age we're at. Which means I'm not going to have a discussion about the social implications of body odor with the 3 year old who doesn't want a bath. But I may talk with them about the problem I have when they don't bathe, and what concerns I have for their wellbeing if they don't bathe, whatever those may be at the moment.

2) It makes it easier to stay calm if I'm working a problem that has components from each side, and I'm putting them together to make us both happy, instead of trying to just make me happy. Compliance is about making me happy. It doesn't solve their problem, and often enough, if we solve their problem first, my problem goes away.

Oh, and 3) the cooperation engages their brains on problem-solving, and as embarrassing as it may be, my kids come up with better solutions to many problems than I ever could. Mainly because they know what will work for them, and I clearly am just guessing what will work for them - I just know what will work for me, and usually only some of the options come to mind even then. I can make educated guesses, but holy cow, given the opportunity to pick the solution that works best for them, they come up with solutions that... well, work.

So, I guess I'll have to be odd-man out on that one. It's likely veru useful at a certain age for certain kids, but if your kids resist it or it seems to cause lock-up, there may be a bad fit, or the age may have passed for it already. They do use it very briefly at my kids' school, but only in introducing a process, not in returning to it. The returning to it is set up for both challenge and success, right tools, right equipment, enough room and time to pursue the task, plus lots of reinforcement on 'ability/action' and self-direction and responsibility (a la 'I like how carefully you washed your hands, I love how you help make sure you don't get sick!'), which seems to work great. When we do those at home, they work pretty well, too.

@Charisse, I think the 'empathy' thing starts around 2 1/2. We find that 'can you look at her face, how do you think she feels right now?' works better than 'how do you think she feels?' alone - they tend to assume (IMHO) the emotion they already ascribed before the action - say, that she's still feeling gleeful because she got the cool toy even though I have now yanked it from her and pushed her over. LOOKING makes it a matter of observation, and their senses will then provide the information they need.

Granted, they quickly realize that the assumption is wrong, so you will end up with a short surge of resistance to even looking, because they know the answer isn't what they want it to be. They WANT it to be that I still get to feel justified in my actions because she's still being a weenie. They do NOT want to recognize that they caused another problem, when they were just trying to solve one.

And, almost always in those situations, we find that they each have a problem to solve with EACH OTHER, not just one with the other. The action I catch is likely to be the REaction as much as the initial action.

Anyway, at 2 1/2, we were already asking the kids to solve the problem with each other. That also goes back to the Safe, Respectful, Kind sequence, because at that age they will go for a kind solution before a respectful one, but the effective order is the other way around. Up to about 7 or 8, they seem to struggle with recognizing the timing and breathing space issue - that asking 'what can I do to make this better?' or just 'what do you need?' (Respectful) may be more useful than trying to give them a hug (Kind). Jumping to Kind without the respectful in our house will result in a shoving match because the most-recently wounded party is still processing their feelings and is NOT interested in a hug right now, they're interested in having their feelings RESPECTED, and that includes time to feel them and release them and get ready to re-engage with the other person.

Not sure if that was helpful, there. It's just what we do. And it isn't a perfect solution to all problems, but it does give the steps for dealing empathetically AND respectfully with the interpersonal process, which reduces the total volume of problems significantly. Ya gotta *observe* the other, not assume you know what they're feeling. And while sometimes you just KNOW the other person needs a hug, sometimes that's just what *you* need, not what *they* need, so then you have to ask, before filling in a solution that only came from you, not them.

@xxx, we discovered that some of the extreme climbing behavior was an indication of a still-developing sensory process. Things that were unsafe didn't FEEL unsafe, they were stimulating because they triggered that system that was a bit sluggish otherwise - we have some 'sensory seekers' (the PT report described it as 'seeks activities without regard to safety' - um, yeah!). At that age, some of it was just needing to stimulate that system.

Distraction will not overpower that degree of deep physiological drive. Stimulation of that system is what they demand, stimulation of that system is the only thing that will do. We were late figuring it out every blessed time, but that was really the key. Finding something else to stimulate the same brain/body system helped. For R, it is being swayed and dipped - pick her up and dance her around on my hip, dip and sway and spin! For M, who was (and is) our biggest climber, it is getting high and getting 'precarious' - so being picked up high, held high, doing 'stunts' (acrobatic positions) while held high (legs out, make an airplane, fly like a bird, hold on with legs while letting hands go, etc.) helped ease the need to get up on top of whatever. Ladder climbing activities also helped - she was adept at climbing the rung-ladder to the playset almost immediately - even though I still 'spotted' her and sweated through it every time she did, she didn't slip often, and she knew how to catch herself when she did. *MY* heart was in my throat, but it was sufficiently safe, and kept her off the dining room table. Climbers do make the heart go YIKES, though, don't they?

[anon too]

@XXX and the people with suggestion.

Thank you! I am struggling with our 13 month old too-most of the time he is wonderful, but when he wants to do something, he wants to do it. I am going to try some of the techniques suggested here

[hedra]

@Charisse, also on the thanking thing. If you thank other people in your life for helping solve your problems, then you're just modeling manners. We thank the kids for helping solve our problems. But we also thank each other, and I don't think we find it 'essential' as much as just mannerly - and we long ago decided that it was more important to use good manners with the people we love than it even is with strangers. So far, it has mainly meant that my kids are comfortable saying 'please, thank you, excuse me' to their peers and teachers. It has been noted by several that our kids use those words automatically, but also with meaning.

If you make the thanks meaningful, just like the praise, it 'clicks' - 'thanks, yoru solution really helps me out' or 'thanks for taking extra care with your sisters feelings, I liked watching you do that' may be good places to put that. If you feel like you are saying it too much, you may be saying it too much, but it is also fairly easy to stop saying the 'thanks' part but leave the MEANING in - instead of saying 'thanks for helping pick up this mess', end up with 'It was a lot easier picking up with your help' and a smile (we tend to culturally use a smile as an alternate form of 'thank you', yes?).

Granted, I usually end up saying thanks then, too - I'm way verbal - BUT I like to tie it to something meaningful. Just like praise, tied to the action not the person, it doesn't tend to create a self-validating desperation, but a sense of accomplishment and pride. The kids end up noting to themselves that they are good at things that we've dealt with that way - B has been problem-solving on a lot of issues lately, in part very clearly (and he even said it himself) because he has come to understand that he has good skills for coming up with creative and effective solutions. He likes them to be appreciated, but he's clearly proud of HIMSELF, not just needing praise from others to prop himself up.

I think something I've noticed is that the way I phrase it tends to end up being part of his own self-talk. Scary, that! LOL!

[Katy]

@Hedra - I totally see what you mean about the "compliance" part of WASSD and that does bother me. (And, as I said, the reason I think it works so well right now is that BJ is still so young that he's really eager to please and isn't that interested in asserting his own agenda).

So what I would ask, then, is how I can use the philosophy that you put forth in a practical every day way, such as how can I get BJ to do something like wash his hands before dinner. Would I just ask him to do it and explain why he needs to? What then if he doesn't spontaneously do it? At school I sort of see why they need to do it as they have to get 12 kids' hands washed before snack. Also, big disclaimer, BJ has autism so he isn't quite as able to understand or imitate normal social behavior - he doesn't necessarily get the causality between dirty hands and needing to wash them. I've tried safe, respectful, kind with him, but that just doesn't register with him yet (well maybe safe does a bit, but the others not so much). I'd love some practical tips on how to get him to do things that are absolutely necessary - wash hands, brush teeth, come inside, etc. in a way that is respectful of his desire to not want to do those things. (Of course, I do offer pleasant alternatives and initiatives, but those don't always work). Thanks Hedra, I always love your input!

[anonanon]

How timely for me. Just yesterday I had a total meltdown with my 18 month old and yelled louder than ever before. it was situation that i knew could deteriorate and i didn't do anything to stop it and lo and behold there we were both of us in a state of chaos. I removed him to the other room and we sat in our separate rooms staring at each other crying. I knew i needed to make a move towards him but i was well beyond my limit and finally he came to me. the rest of the day was awful as he clung to me and kept kissing me as if trying to win me back. I felt like the WORST parent in the world and still continue to feel awful.
I share this story because I realized that while I may have infinite patience at times there are definitely times where I think if I can just push him and me a few minutes further so I can get X done things will be great. After yesterday I realized that while there are times that he can be pushed there are clearly times when I know he can't and no matter how little time (30seconds) it will take to finish what I need to do I need to stop and be with him.
I know this is not a unique idea and something that has repeatedly been discussed on this forum but I felt it was worth re-mentioning because it's so easy to forget that we push our kids and then discipline them for their actions when they are pushed.

[Cecilia]

The 'wait ask say show do' technique was designed to be used with children with Autism. That final "do" step is great for children who may not have understood or processed your instructions, have motor issues or who can't yet "do" the task themselves. I don't think it was designed as a discipline technique, per se. With more "competent" children perhaps the last step should be "discuss"?

As a parent, I constantly use ideas I learned from preschool teachers in my days as a Speech-Language Pathologist. Lately I've been thinking about the importance of arranging the environment as a way of averting behavior problems. Each time we head off to change her diaper my 2-year-old wants to stop and play with her LIttle People, which are so conveniently right in our path to the changing area. I'm balancing that annoyance with the annoyance of having them underfoot elsewhere in the house.

On another note, what do you say to when people praise your child? It used to be "she's so cute", but lately my very verbal child is being told "You're so smart." I'm a big fan of praising "the action not the person" as hedra says. OK, not a huge issue -- we should all have such a "problem". But I spent most of my educational career rarely studying because I was too "smart".

[hedra]

Katy, autism is an interesting issue, because it leaves you with mainly internal motivations and external rules, many of which don't compute.

The closest I can get to where to go with that is where I had to go with G, who is so internally motivated that he asked me when he was 3 if I really wanted him to do something just because someone else did it (seriously) - and of course, the answer was no. So I had to figure out why exactly I wanted him to do something, and what the issues were for him doing or not doing it, and then find solutions that worked for him first, and me second.

The first thing that comes to mind is actually the same issue you have - washing before eating. Now, frankly, we don't go nuts on the hand-washing before eating. I am a big proponent of eating dirt, I'm afraid. That said, we keep 'table wipes' at the table for washing up hands that are really not safe for the table. They're right there, there is no 'before you get to the table you must make this detour' (or not necessarily - there is a second option). We also have made the hand-washing very simple and easy for them to succeed with. Foamy soap, step-stool, towel in reach, etc. For longer steps series than they can follow, we have a picture card of the steps that need to be done, so they can refer to the card (and we can ask them to check the card) rather than having us tell them to do something. We have them help make the cards, as well - 'what do we do first? Okay, I'll draw that. Now what's after that? Is that really next? Oh, right, there's this other step. I'll draw that. Now, the next step. And what else?' - so the card is also their own process, not just mine.

There is also making it fun in other ways - the kids LOVE going to dinner at the Japanese/Chinese restaurant near us. They especially love getting the heated, scented wet cloths to wash their hands with before eating. So... a warm wet cloth on a tray at everyone's seat? Or even just his. Solves your problem, without requiring the detour in the 'dinner time' steps (as I recall, the detours are part of the problem in the processing for ASDs, as each transition is itself a challenge).

I don't know how much engagement he has for commiserating on the issue as well, or on making you follow the same rules... one of my teacher friends (best friend) taught for a while at a religious school. The kids had to go to Chapel each day. They had to go with clean hands and faces, combed hair, and shirts tucked in. Her class cooperated every blessed day. It was notable. Why did they? Because she shared the secret - NOBODY wants to go to chapel every day. Not even the pastor wants to go to chapel every day. We do it because it is important, we do it because it is respectful, and we do it well because that is how we act respectfully. We don't have to want to. I don't WANT to, not every day. But we get clean, and presentable, and be quiet and listen, because this is our choice to act respectfully. Being 'in' on the secret that not everyone wants to do it helped a lot of kids. If you get in there and wash your hands, and DH washes his hands, then it is everyone having to stop and wash their hands at the same time, not just him. That might or might not resonate, but it is an effective and respectful approach, IMHO - we agree it isn't fun, we don't always want to do it, but we do it. It may be just 'this is one of the things people do here' and that's all you can say. It is because it is, if he doesn't 'get' the Safe Respectful Kind approach. But if it IS, then it is for everyone. (Granted, you might already do that.)

Anyway, those would be my first choices. Table wipes is huge for us - it also allows them to clean up their own spills. We just get a fresh container of diaper wipes, sharpie it with Table Wipes (so they don't wander back and forth to the bathroom), and leave it on the table.

[Charisse]

@hedra, I am also way (waaaay) verbal as is Mouse...and probably Mr. C too, though a smidge less than his ladies. I totally thank people (all the time and encourage Mouse to do the same when people help/compliment/do something for her. Mr. C and I regularly say stuff like "thanks for handling the UPS stuff this morning, I really had to get to work"...etc. I think I'm doing OK based on what you say--for example as we walked to school this morning I reviewed our day so far "this was such a fun morning--I think a lot of it was that you cooperated a lot with daddy and me. Remember, your pink tights were dirty, but you picked a second choice really quickly and you didn't whine about it...and when I said we had five minutes to go, you hurried up and got your shoes and jacket--so here we are, all smiling and we're going to be on time for school--thanks for doing your part." or something like that--it's just that my own parents (or Mr. C's) would NEVER have done that.

& yeah, Mouse tells me all about the feelings of herself, her friends, and characters in books, come to think of it--it's definitely time to start incorporating that. Cool.

OK, off to the Parks office to see if we can get a picnic area for her birthday.

[pnuts mama]

@katy and hedra- two quick observations:
i once read (here?) that choices for kids (and adults, duh) help empower them and feel more in control. but the flip side of that is there are times when we don't have the choice- that's when it becomes an automatic- let's say, washing hands on the low side of the scale or hitting on the other end. i catch myself saying "do you want to ___?" to a question that the poor kid really doesn't have the choice to say no to- or worse, saying "we're going to ___, ok?" (because she can say, "no"). instead, i've been working on making things more automatic- like, "oh, time to eat, let's go wash our hands!" or, "we don't hit, ever" for me, this makes it more teaching what is/is not appropriate socially/whatever and helps create their own inner monologue (i know, freud would say too soon! but whatever) of 'acceptable' behavior.

i was also thinking about the whole compliance/submission vs. self-control/self-directed behavior thing. for me, there is something important about enforcing boundaries with kids- letting them know what is and is not acceptable is valuable and helps them create their own inner dialog- which is such a fine line between control and self-direction. part of me worries that without clear boundaries the world can be a scary place for a kid (and adult), but the other part of me of course gets nervous that i'm being a bossy jackass and just trying to exert my will over hers *because i can*. sigh. we live and grow and move forward and do the best we can, don't we?

this has been so useful and interesting for me to read, thanks everyone!

[Helen]

For folks interested in time out, the history of it, and some very thought-provoking arguments against it, you might pick up Unconditional Parenting and Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn. Kohn makes interesting arguments against both time out and praise as effective parenting methods.

[Julie]

@hedra...your religious school story reminds me of what I used to say to my 4th graders. Every Friday we would have an outdoor flag salute before school - the whole school would gather and parents were welcome....one class would perform a song, the principal would make important announcements - it usually lasted about 20 minutes. That is a long time for 4th grade kids to sit still and listen. Outside. When there are cool sticks to poke their friends with and little pebbles to throw, right there *on the ground* in front of them! And so one day, being fed up with having to redirect behavior for 20 minutes every Friday we went back to the classroom and I told them "Look. We have to be there. This is how the school is run. I don't care if you don't listen. I don't care if you don't enjoy it. But you will PRETEND that you are listening. You can think about baseball, your snack, your weekend plans, whatever. You can be 100 miles away in your head, as long as you LOOK like you're listening." and that really did solve most of my problems. A gentle reminder in someone's ear "I know you're not interested, but could you please PRETEND to be interested?" brought a smile and instant cooperation.

Maybe some other time I'll talk about my Adult Management crash course I would give my incoming students every year......similar to classroom management, I would train them how to "manage" the adults in their lives.

[cat, galloping]

Interesting post. I have never liked time outs, but I could never have expressed why. I have an easy 2-year-old, though, for whom saying "Please don't jump on the table" (or, you know, lick the dirty ladder, as the case may be) is usually enough. It's nice to have alternatives for when that doesn't work.

[Lisa]

@Cecelia, also an issue with our very verbal kid. And I, too - very verbal very early - got a lot of that, and (I think as a result) coasted through way too much of my education on being "smart", until I couldn't coast any more and almost flunked out of college. Common story.

There was an interesting piece in NY Magazine a while back on this very issue:
http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/

To paraphrase a bit of the piece that stuck with me: apparently in one study, kids were given a puzzle task and then told either that they'd done well and must be "smart", or that they'd done a "good job" (no specific details on how, but avoided the s-word). The kids were then asked to choose a second puzzle. The first group were more likely to choose an easier puzzle (to maintain the self-image of smartness?), and the latter to choose a harder one (to exercise their skills?).

Um. So. We've actually asked close friends and family, when faced with such a situation, to praise T's actual effort and/or accomplishment vs. praising a quality of self (smartness or whatever). We try to do the same.

And in the larger world? We just try to rephrase the praise in T's hearing, so he can at least see what *we* value - "He's really been learning a lot of new words lately." "He's been working on learning his colors - it's a lot of fun." "We really enjoy hearing his ideas about the world." Or, to up the ante, as DH did the other day when a friend called T's verbal ability "scary": "Really? What's scary about it to you?" Much backpedaling and clarification ensued.

Not perfect, but at least it sends a concurrent message.

[Cecilia]

Katy,
I don't know your son, but I have worked with many children with autism over the years.

Consider talking to your child's teachers and therapists about how they have set up these routines in the school. It must be frustrating as a parent to hear that he's doing these things seemingly effortlessly in another environment.

Before you talk to them, and for your own planning, think about where the breakdown is occurring. Is he too busy doing something else and doesn't want to stop? Does he understand what it is you want him to do? Do you get him to the bathroom, but then he refuses to go through the process? Does he want your help or prefer to do it independently? Is he too eager to eat to stop and wash his hands first?

Also, what works well in other situations? Does he enjoy routines? Is he a visual learner?

Some quick ideas to try:
a "transitional object" -- hand him the soap or other object for him to carry to the bathroom.
a picture schedule -- if he understands pictures. It could be just two pictures with hands being washed on top, and eating food on the bottom.
routine -- prep him for handwashing by doing the same activity beforehand (blowing bubbles/reading a book, whatever), or sandwich the handwashing between two preferred activities.
"shaping" -- as you would in a more behaviorist approach, reward each step toward the desired action. This can be very time-consuming but effective in the long run.

Depending on his understanding and ability, you may need to help him "do" the handwashing at first. It depends on where the breakdown is occurring.

[Lisa]

Oh, pnuts mama - that trailing "OK?" I want so bad to excise it from my speech, and I'm not having a lot of success. Aagh.

[Katy]

Cecilia - thanks those are helpful tips. I do like the idea of a transitional object and the picture steps (he LOVES looking at pictures so that might well work). Generally he is pretty good at doing things when we ask, there's just a longer processing time. Once he's on his way to the task he's fine about doing it. And we can get his attention okay, it's the middle step of helping him understand what he needs to do and getting him motivated to do it. Probably similar to most kids age, really, just a tad slower to compute it all. Thanks for a really helpful discussion everyone!

[CJ]

So, here's my question - related to the fabulous post and helpful comments: Can we have an idea on how to get them to hold still for the intervention? If you have to have a meaningful conversation between feuding kids and they are unwilling to stay put for it, how can you avoid wrestling them to the ground and pinning them there for the kinder, gentler discipline??

The kids I deal with are not dealt with consistently, which is most of the problem, but when I'm with them I really want to treat time out and the followup 'do-over' well, but often it's still turning into a physical intervention as well as an emotional one.

[xxxx]

i can't believe how wonderful it is to read all of these posts. Hedra! When I saw that you wrote to me, i literally got all star struck, "she's addressing me?!" Thank you all so much for your thoughts about my climbing 13 month old. He's also definitely going through his 55th wonder week so things have been changing left & right -- sleep disruptions, clingy behavior, etc but also the most amazing jumps and leaps, watching him play is the most enjoyable thing i have ever done. So it is with great pleasure that I read such kind words and thoughtful ideas about the difficult parts. One thing I have realized is that i can't really do anything else except be with him right now, meaning this is not the time for multi-tasking. If I do multi-task i lose my patience so quickly, I must get this done! Can't I just have one more minute? So the post talking about pushing our kids to their limit and then punishing them really hit home. I know this time will pass and he will be able to play again by himself (thank you moxie & wonder weeks), so I am just going to sit with him even more... Read the posts from Hedra and others and arm my self with some tools to deal with the 5 percent of the time I don't know how to deal with this little person respectfully & correctly. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH.

[me]

Hi.. as usual, Moxie, great and timely post! I've read the Positive Parenting book and liked a lot of what it had to say; however, that said, I've had a really hard time implementing it. But we are trying one little thing at a time.

That said, one of the tips in that book about getting attention was to get down to the child's level, put your face really close to the his/hers and wait for the child to acknowledge you. It takes amazing patience (and I will totally admit I don't use it as often as I should) but it truly works.

We use time outs quite frequently but have had mixed results. Even the redo idea is a struggle (we've tried it) as it can turn into a power struggle.

I or my husband always seem to wind up yelling... I hate that part. It is almost like the boys need it to escalate to that point. It just turns things so negative and is wearing me out. I'm definitely going to go to Sharon's website and get more tips.

In terms of the praise, one thing that I've hard the hardest time doing from the Positive Parenting book is that they suggest that you shouldn't say Thank You to the child for doing something as it teaches them that they are doing it to please you but it should be more so that they feel their own self joy/pride. However, I can not seem to stop saying Thank You no matter what I do. Some of what they say in the book about this makes sense logically - It just doesn't feel comfortable/normal yet for me not to say Thank You.

[enu]

wrt saying "thank you" or not to the child and all these other things you should/shouldn't say - theories on these things change like the wind, and often sticking to what you should/shouldn't say makes you sound like a flippin' parrot, insincere and insecure. Speak to you child with love in your heart and their best interests in mind and I don't think you will fall far from the mark whether you praise them when you "shouldn't" or thank them when you "shouldn't" or whatever. IME the problems don't come from Mommy saying "Great job, Tyler!", they come from the hurtful, hateful things you hear parents say to their children all the time. Don't beat yourself up over an excess "thank you"!

[Sarah V.]

On the very few occasions when I've used time out, instead of sending my son away for it I've stayed with him during the time out. (That may mean that it technically isn't time out, but it's what I still call it, for convenience.) This was for purely practical reasons - I didn't see how I was going to get him to stay in one place short of locking him in a room, and I wasn't about to go that far. But, having read some Alfie Kohn on the subject, I'm now glad I did things that way.

My son's time-outs have basically just consisted of me parking him in the nearest neutral and boring place (on a few occasions it's been the stairs - once or twice he bit me when he was being dried off after his bath and I plonked him back into the bath) and saying to him repeatedly "No, you were not supposed to do X, so now we have to sit here for a minute because you did X." He has had very few time-outs - I save it as an ultimate sanction for drumming the point in. Once it was for repeatedly doing something I'd told him not to do, to the point where he *clearly* knew that he wasn't supposed to be doing this and was just testing limits - other times, it's been for biting or other forms of violence. Most times I've used the one-minute-for-every-year-of-the-child's-age rule and felt that worked well as a guideline. On another occasion I had a sudden epiphany part way through, as I checked my watch to see whether the time was up yet, that on this occasion this rule was *not* appropriate, that he had spent long enough in time out, and that if I kept him there for longer he would become so upset/fed up by the whole thing that I would lose any chance of him retaining the message I was trying to give him. I don't know why I felt that way that time and not the other times - just knew that that was my gut feeling, that I went with it, and didn't regret doing so.

My feeling about the time-outs is that, every once in a while, they're useful and necessary to reinforce the fact that what I'm telling him about how to behave is *really* important, so important that we need to stop whatever else is being done and just sit down for a minute or two for him to get the message. I feel that, used in the way I've used them, they're a useful and vital tool from the parenting toolbox. And that's not to say that I see them as some sort of universal solution to all problems. You might want to think about trying this method - staying with him during the time-out and using the time to talk to him - but I'm offering it as a suggestion, not as a parenting commandment, because I reckon you'll know whether it's right for your son or not.