Getting a spouse to do his share?

Confession: I am always tempted to start each post by addressing you as "Hey, loveys." Which is how I greet my friends, kids, and cats, and other mammals I like. So if it slips out some time, it's just because I like you.

Today's question is from Alicia:

"I would like to ask your readers for advice on how to get your spouse to be a more equal partner. I do almost everything in the house. Early in our relationship, my husband informed me that he didn't care if the house is clean and that if I care, I should clean it. And I should probably have known this did not bode well for the future, but I was 26. Now I am 51 and we have two kids. If I ask him for help, then I am nagging. I do all the dishes, almost all meals, grocery shopping, paperwork, laundry, errands, and more than half the childcare. Plus I work full time. He does fun things with the kids but I do all the schlepping to doctors, buying clothes, all the things that are not fun.

I would love to regain that youthful ardor/affection in our relationship, but first I really need him to take some of the load off my shoulders. I'm often so exhausted I feel sure at times I am going to get sick and die. We've talked about it in counseling but everything he has agreed to do he almost immediately stopped doing after about a week.

He is also incredibly resentful that we don't have enough sex and especially adventurous sex. He would like to have sex 2-3 times per week. We're lucky most weeks if we have it once. We have gone more than a month without.

The Mommy workload vs sex equation is completely messed up in our relationship.

Please help! I would love especially to hear from people who have been there and who figured out how to turn it around."

Since you've talked about it in counseling, and are in counseling, I'm going to assume that your husband realizes how hurtful this is to you.

What I'm going to say is based on the negotiation techniques I've learned in business school and in life, and is based on the terminology in the book Getting To Yes (a classic, and also a fast, chunkable read):

You need to know three things: What you really want (your "ask"), what's the least you'll accept (your "reserve"), and what your alternative is if you can't make an agreement (your "best alternative to negotiated agreement" aka "BATNA").

It feels to me like in this specific situation, your BATNA is the part you need to clarify. Right now you're just living with not having an agreement, so in some ways your BATNA is the status quo. But it doesn't sound like you want to live that way anymore. Which involves clarifying your boundaries and then making them a priority.

I was talking about boundaries and this kind of negotiation between spouses (which I never experienced in a healthy way) with my friend Wokie Nwabueze of Manifest Moxie. Wokie works with women on clarifying what they really want and then learning how to find their clear voices to ask for those things in all kinds of professional and personal situations. She said, "One of the most powerful things a woman can do for herself is to understand her boundaries. And it is not enough to simply have boundaries--you must clearly articulate them and provide quick and consistent feedback when lines are crossed. Speaking up takes courage but it is the way we teach others how we want to be treated."

And that was something I sometimes miss--the idea that enforcing our own boundaries TEACHES other people what we want and expect. So I'd say that you need to keep speaking up. And if your husband doesn't care that he's treating you in a way that you don't want to be treated every day, then you may need to decide what your BATNA really is. Or, as Wokie said, "When we get to a point when we feel like the cost we are paying or will pay exceeds the benefit, we should make a decision about whether or not to walk away. Knowing your BATNA helps us understand what our options are if we choose to walk away. Clarity equals courage and smart choices."

Readers? Have any of you been in this situation and come up with a solution you are happy with?

Comments

[Kate]

Wow! What an important post! I would also love to hear more about this. My husband does the cooking and cleans the kitchen when he is home (mostly) and takes our daughter when I work but otherwise I do almost everything. I am exhausted.

[Shannon]

This is a complex issue and I think Moxie gave way better advice than I ever could.

My one minor contribution to this topic, and I may be projecting here, is that you should ignore other women who say stuff like, "Oh, MY husband does so much around the house. My husband is so great! He does more than half the work! My husband would just need to grow breasts and lactate and then we could fully share the childcare load 50/50!"

Those people probably aren't giving you an accurate picture of their real lives. I would venture to say that a lot of women feel like they're doing more than their fair share, it's just not politically correct to admit it.

[Anonymous]

This exact situation is why I'm currently separated and headed to divorce. I did everything plus working full time and my husband hated that I asked him to do more & we didn't have "enough" sex. Long story short, he decided 6 months ago he didn't want to be married anymore and we separated. Everyone seems so surprised at how well I am handling everything...but I think it is because I was just so freaking tired all the time. Yes, I am sad and angry at my husband, but it's a relief to not be living a life where I wasn't valued at all. No real advice for the OP, except to say you're not alone.

[Leah]

Wow. That someone would actively and purposely not understand that exhaustion and lack of respect leads to no interest in sex makes me wonder if he really wants it or if he wants an excuse/freedom to find it elsewhere. It seems so clear and obvious that no one wants to have sex with someone who disrespects their time/feelings/caretaking work that it seems like he can't be doing it unknowingly. I really hope he's just clueless. But holy cow, it seems so blatant. :(

[VandyB]

I struggle with this, too, and have found a lot of useful advice in the book "The Lazy Husband" by Joshua Coleman - available used on amazon. It's not a husband-bashing book, but is full of strategies to change the imbalance. Highly recommend reading it to see what applies to your relationship.

[Alexicographer]

The only (not terribly clever) question I have to ask is whether outsourcing e.g. housecleaning or meal prep is an option and if so whether it could be assigned to DH -- not just paying the financial cost of having it done from whatever resources are "his" (and of course that assumes some division of finances that involves each partner having some spending money of their own), but the logistics of setting it up and managing it (at least, I would want both those things to be assigned to whomever's responsibility these were decided to be).

My mother endured the sort of behavior the OP describes for years before she finally divorced my father (and thrived). She waited until we kids were out of the house and it is without question true (in their case) that he would have put the family and us kids through absolute horror had she not (waited), but that reflects a pretty serious level of dysfunction on his part and probably isn't generalizeable. As we kids got older but before they separated, she did sometimes do thing like just take herself out to dinner (i.e. leave the house, making feeding himself my dad's responsibility) when he was being flaky/obnoxious, but by then (a) we kids were old enough that we were either out for our own activities or capable of mustering our own meals in a pinch and (b) it was obvious to everyone but my dad that unless he did an about-face the marriage was over.

I've managed to develop pretty low standards for what constitutes a clean house, etc. (to my husband's dismay), but I'm not how to achieve this if one's not already there. It does make my life a lot easier, though.

[Yet another Jen]

OK, if you tell someone how your husband isn't pulling his weight, and she responds with how great her husband is and how much he helps, then she is a fucking bitch and you should stay away from her. And as a sideline to OP's question--sorry if this is hijacking (maybe we should save it for its own post? What say you, Moxie?)--I'd be curious to know readers' data points for how often they have sex. We have been fairly consistently once-a-weekers since my oldest was born, 6 1/2 years ago, unless somebody is sick or newly delivered of a baby or something. Now that my younger is 3 1/2, we're up to about twice a week, which is where I think it will stay for a while. Like many men, my husband would probably like to do it every day, where I'm OK with 1-2x a week (been meaning to find out if my tragic libido is normal for me or the result of low hormones or something). Anyway, I think the OP's husband has unrealistic expections, PARTICULARLY given his lack of help or realization that it's a problem. Good luck, OP.

[Schwa de Vivre]

Moxie's dead right here. This is all that has worked for me. In fact, I often have a hard time getting my spouse to listen without the BATNA -- which is me leaving. It's not a great dynamic, but we're working on him taking me seriously before it gets to that point.

[Anon today]

I don't think there's anything you can do to change someone else's behavior - he has to decide to change it himself. Right now he has no incentive to do so; you do everything, and the worst he gets is some complaining. I'm not saying this to criticize- I understand how these situations come about! - but that seems to be the net effect. He is counting on the fact that you care about your house functioning, and he's pretending he doesn't. If clean laundry and food and washed dishes stopped appearing, I bet he'd realize that he cares that these things exist, he just doesn't want to accept any responsibility for making them happen.

I agree with Moxie's 'boundaries' advice and would also advocate that you decide what the maximum (and also minimum!) is that you can sustainably do and slowly work toward that. Like washing only your OWN clothes, if everyone else is old enough to do it, or just NOT doing the dishes any more.

[Anon today]

Also on sex, I have a one-year-old and it's more like once a MONTH. I don't think 1-2x/week counts as tragically low libido with small children!!!

[Jennifer]

Well, this might sound a little...retro? But it sounds like the wife "has" something the husband wants (more sex). I wonder if it would work to whisper in his ear, hey lover boy, if you do this for me, I'll rock your socks off tonight. It would have to be very specific, like clean the kitchen by 8 pm or something. If he doesn't care if the house is clean, he probably doesn't notice what needs to be done, so a general "I need help around the house" wouldn't work. Linking a specific task to a specific "reward" might change that dynamic a bit. Because if we're talking about negotiations, strictly speaking they both have something the other one wants.

[jen]

My husband and I used to have this problem. In my situation, he wanted to help but didn't know what to do, was afraid of doing it wrong, and sometimes I truly think he didn't see what was bothering me. So we did work on relaxing my standards and also I learned to really communicating what I felt needed done. We never did an actual list of what needs done (maybe that would help) but we've worked it out so that if one of us is doing the bath with the kiddo, the other is getting dinner dishes done up. Or the trash taken out.

It did take a while to get to this point and there have been many problems and set backs and we still have our fair share of other issues but overall I'm more comfortable with his contribution level.

Also, with regard to nagging, does he say you are nagging or do you feel like you are nagging? I felt like I was nagging by having to ask him to do xyz thing but my husband really didn't view it as nagging and actually needed me to remind him of what needed done (especially at first).

But overall, I think you've done your best to communicate what you need and now it's sort of on him to decide he wants to change.

[Belleblue]

I wish I had advice but I don't. Just wanted to let the OP know I am in the EXACT same situation. I have a 1 and a 3 yr old and I am constantly exhausted. Husband will (regularly) announce he's tired and then sleep all day. If I dare question it, he blows up at me. We are also in counseling but not much has changed. Needless to say, I think Moxie is right - I am actively figuring out and creating some options for myself. I don't want to hurt my kids but I can't continue like this. It's hurting my health.

[Sonia]

I don't have much in the way of advice, just commiseration. My husband works crazy long hours, and I am unemployed, so the housework/child wrangling falls to me. I do not mind right now, but once I am working again, things are going to have to change, and I'm worried that they won't. But I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

As far as practical solutions, since you are overwhelmed and your husband has no interest in changing his behavior without a "nuclear" option it seems, how much of the chore load do your children shoulder? They are likely old enough to do the dishes, sweep/vacuum the floors, change their bed sheets, and probably even do their own laundry (and I do suggest you stop doing your husband's laundry. Natural consequences, baby!). I know it's a bitch to make sure your kids do the chores at least half-assedly (HOW can my child not see the glasses on the counter while he is loading the dishwasher, and WHY does he miss enormous sections of the floor while he is sweeping? but I digress), and it seems like one more thing on your list, but the payoff will be worth it. My kids are 9 & 5, and they do enough of the housework that it actually does take some of the pressure off me. Plus they are boys, so I like to think I am training them so their future partners don't have to.

I am sorry that you are going through this, and I hope you can work out a solution that is acceptable and fair to you.

[Cloud]

I think Moxie is spot on that you need to clarify what you are willing to do if your husband won't change. Would you leave? Is this a deal-breaker on your marriage?

I hesitate to write this given some of the comments above, but my husband and I do have a fairly equitable split. I cannot give advice on how to get there, because we started there. However, I also know that for me, an arrangement like yours would be a deal-breaker. I would divorce a man who acted like your husband. And yes, I know that shocks some people, but it is my truth, so there it is.

Anyway, I am only posting because this topic puzzled me for a long time, and I finally posted about it and I think the comments were amazingly informative. There were comments from women at all points on the spectrum and even a couple of men. There were comments from a few women whose partners don't do much work around the house, and they describe how/why they made peace with that arrangement. There are comments from a few people who managed to make things better, too. There were comments from women who were once the partner not contributing equally, talking about why they changed. So here is the post:
http://www.wandering-scientist.com/2012/04/women-men-chores-and-relationships.html

There is a link at the bottom of that post to a post I wrote later summarizing what I'd learned from the comments, but I think that if I put it here, my comment will get hung up in Moxie's spam filter, so sorry- you'll have to click through and then scroll down to find it (it is right before the comments). The short summary, though, is that I think you have three choices if you want to be happier: 1. care more (decide you'd actually leave if this doesn't improve), 2. care less (decide the house can go to hell in a handbasket), or 3. stop caring (decide to accept the status quo and stop feeling resentful about it)

Good luck. One thing I learned from writing that original post is that you are far from alone in this situation.

[Tara]

Ok, so even though my initial reaction is that this husband is kind of a jerk and she may be better off without him, I do want to encourage her to take one good honest look at what he might do that does contribute to the household. I get really frustrated because I do all the day to day stuff (groceries, laundry, cooking), but when I stop and think (hard) about it I realize there are a lot of things my husband just sort of does that keep our house running smoothly that saves us a lot of time and money. Things like fixing the leaky toilet, taking the cars for oil changes, fixing the computer. I hate that these fall under such gender-role stereotype lines, but the point is that I have to give him some credit. Then I can start conversations mentioning what I do notice and appreciate and I think it helps keep him from getting super defensive.

Also, my husband has told me that it really gets his cooperative juices flowing when I approach things from a "me and him against the world" approach. So I try to engineer conversations about household effort equality from a team perspective, and make the chores themselves the "enemy." Maybe your partner has a different button but I would try to find it and use it to your advantage (do you have a daughter? Ask him how he would feel if she married a guy like him someday and ran herself ragged doing all the chores).

I can't help with sex, because my husband has always been the oddball who only wants sex once or twice a month. I can see the resistance you would have to creating a dynamic where sex and chores become currency for eachother. If things are bad enough though, I might give that a shot - what would you have to lose? Try offering a carrot of hot sex in exchange for some serious household support. If it isn't helpful don't continue, but I tend to be a "try anything once" kind of gal.

Good luck and I definitely feel for you - you are not alone.

[Moxie]

Allowing your children to see you being treated badly is hurting your kids, too. And teaching them that you don't matter, which by extension means that they don't matter.

[C]

We've been working through a very toned down version of the same thing. We also don't have children, so there is simply less work to be done, and having the extra work of kids must make it oh so much harder. I'm sorry and I feel for you!

I think the hardest part to get past is the hurtful attitude of "I don't care as much as you do and therefore you need to do the work", and unfortunately I don't have any suggestions there. I hope that with therapy, he can come to see that even if he doesn't care about the house being clean, he does care about you and about the things that are important to you. But until he wants to find a solution, too, I am at a loss.

My husband also felt that I was nagging too much. And to tell you the truth, I was starting to feel more like his mother than his partner (a dead giveaway that yes, I probably was nagging too much). So we made a list of everything that needs to get done around the house on a regular basis, along with how much time it takes each week. We then divided it equally between us. He has a list of what he needs to do each week, and I don't need to "nag" anymore. So! Much! Better!

Just the exercise by itself was helpful, too. I don't think my husband really understood why I felt that the workload was unevenly split until it was right there, written out. He seemed surprised at how uneven things were.

Like I said, obviously that is not helpful unless he decides that he wants to come up with a solution. Until then, I agree with Moxie and others: Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.

[SarahB]

After this many years, I think your only option might be to say that either life has to change or you'll be asking for a divorce. I would definitely meet with a lawyer before you state this out loud to your husband, so you know what that threat means and you're prepared to take the first steps towards carrying it out should that be the option.

Unless you'd rather stay in the status quo than divorce...because it seems like your husband is making it pretty clear that that's all he's willing to give. The thought of losing you would hopefully crystallize his feelings one way or another.

[Neil]

I wasn't going to post this but Moxie convinced me that it might be constructive after all. To be blunt, I can't see a way of making this work.

Once you've been in a relationship with someone this long, each of your roles in the relationship are solidified. Some people are capable of recognizing this and faced with the reality (through talk, therapy, or intervention) can change, but these people are extremely rare.

Based on the fact you and your husband have been together for this long and that his responses & attitudes towards you have been dismissive or self-serving, I don't believe he's one of those rare people. I honestly believe you both have completely opposing needs and you need to sit back and figure out a) how you feel about that, b) how much you're willing to tolerate for the sake of the relationship, and c) if there's any workarounds that alleviate the problem enough to both of your satisfaction.

A good example is from my own relationship with my wife. We otherwise get along very well, but she and I have completely different ideas on the concept of "clean". I'm quite clean, and she's not.

In the past it's been a low-level but growing source of resentment and frustration for both of us: I felt like she wasn't doing her part, and she felt like I was being a bossy ass. Ultimately we both realized that we couldn't change, so we worked around it by hiring a cleaner. The house is reasonably clean, and we've both made efforts to tone down the behaviour that annoyed the other person.

If your problems are too big for a workaround like this to work then you'll need to face the decision of how much is too much and if the relationship is worth saving.

None of this is easy and I wish you the best no matter what you decide to do. Good luck!

[Amanda]

After 25 years, I have a hard time imagining this dynamic successfully changing. So decide if you can continue to live with it or not.

Personally, this would be a deal-breaker for me. Not just the lack of engagement on the work itself, but the lack of willingness to even engage on the topic.

I feel like this situation is one that women in relationships need to take *very* seriously before having kids. Having kids triples or quadruples the amount of both housework and administrative juggling. An unhelpful significant other is unlikely to change simply because a baby is born. So the burden gets even higher, and the resentment builds faster. It kills a lot of relationships, and is often entangled in the sex life of the relationship.

Instead, I see a lot of young women (early 20s) that I work with thinking it's "cute" to assume the traditional gender roles and do all the cooking and cleaning while working full-time and trying to invest in their careers.

[Peacockhead]

Quite honestly, I am sure if he helped out more, you would have more energy to engage in sex or put it at a higher premium. It's really ver simple-however, changing a man's behaviors after 25 years of complacency is not. I think unfortunately, this is the way to approach him: let him know in no uncertain terms that once he realizes that the sex suffers because of both resentment and legitimate tiredness, he holds all the power to get what he wants-if he gets off his old-fashioned, lazy butt and helps out.

[Ashley]

I read through the other comments and wanted to add a couple of other thoughts.
First, I love the idea of writing out a list of all of the tasks that have to get done to keep the house running, both yours and his. You may find that he does more than you think (for instance, my husband does all the yard work, car stuff, tech stuff, keeps our fireplace going all winter, etc.). And if not, he'll see how much you're doing compared to how much he's doing and it may be an eye-opener.

Second, I think it's important to really drive home the point that even though it's unfair for your husband to say, basically, "I don't care if the house is clean, so take care of it yourself," it really could just be a matter of different standards. You still have to find a way to compromise on those standards, but I think it's funny that we (myself included) are so quick to label a husband a jerk for not wanting to keep the house clean, but slower to label a wife a jerk for not making more of an effort to keep up with her husband's sex drive. At root, aren't both an issue of one person having higher standards and the other needing to do more to meet them? (Of course, this isn't a direct relationship since sex isn't just a simple quantity issue, there's a quality issue and a lot more emotion tied up in it as well.)
Baby is crying in the background and I need to go get him out of his crib, so sorry if this is rushed and doesn't make sense. I'm afraid I'm putting my foot in my mouth and not expressing myself well at all.

[A Facebook User]

Okay, a little annoyed at the whole "i want to have sex more" from the husband! Does he not know that a clean house is a powerful and potent aphrodisiac?

When I read this story, I was reminded of a friend's mother who one day just stopped cooking and doing the dishes. It was a shock to the system, but it got that point across. How did she do it?

When dinner time came round and there was no dinner, and when asked what was for dinner, she simply said "what do you want for dinner? and then "that sounds nice, why don't you make that happen?" He went to the store, bought supplies (roasted chicken, lemon pie, and mashed potatoes, all from the prepared foods section), and that was dinner. She made no comment, no complaint. This was his dinner and his plan, and she said nothing bad at all. Just, "thanks, that was great".

Repeat. Every night, for weeks.

Change happened, with no nagging (which doesn't work), no judging (which undermines the efforts of the husband), and I am sure it took great resolve and discipline on her part to NOT do the work. She didn't try to change everything, just one thing (the cooking and dishes). [I believe she did buy paper plates during this transition period]
Although working spouses can come up with different allocation of labor, cooking and dishes are some of the easiest tasks to share with a spouse. They can even be shared with the children!

I think she recognized that the pattern of her cooking and cleaning up after dinner was so long ingrained, that it would take a clear NEW boundary being declared (but in a nice and non-confrontational way).

I think she would have accepted dinner out, peanut butter sandwiches, soup, whatever, anything but her making dinner and being in the kitchen.

I think that Moxie is right on about deciding ideally what you want (husband makes dinner), and thinking through the path that will get her to that point.

Also, totally agree 100% about the LIST. Making lists has saved my sanity. I used to get stressed out anytime before we went on a weekend trip to grandma's with the kids. One of these times, when I was doing all the things I do, I actually wrote every single thing down. When I got back from the trip, I typed a word document, entitled LIST TO DO BEFORE LEAVING THE HOUSE, and posted it. Then, the next time we went on a trip, my husband actually referred to the list THREE days before we were supposed to go, and started working on the list! (finding lamp timers for the light, pulling out the bags from the storage closet). I since revised the list (it no longer diapers, since my kids are now all over age 4).

My husband reminds me, that when my workload increases (I'm an independent contractor, so my hours can shift), that I just need to make him a new list, and he'll do his best to help out. LISTS are brilliant.

But I think that if he doesn't respond to direct solicitations of specific help, in list form or otherwise, something is wrong here.

Stay Strong, Sister!

[gretchen]

No advice...but I validate your frustration. You are not crazy. I agree that life/relationships are about balance. Once that balance tips to the point where it is non-negotiable- there is a problem. If you are willing to negotiate but the other party is not- we have an even bigger problem. I agree that there could be alternative solutions (outsourcing). But, what are you willing or able to compromise?

[SarcastiCarrie]

Since the couple is in counseling, this is serious business. Moxie has great ideas about boundaries and whatnot.

How about quid pro quo trading? Is he directly motivated? If you unload the dishwasher and usher 3 loads through the clothes washer, I will give you one...XXX (tripe X-rated whatever) XXX. If you make dinner and clean up Tuesday night so I have free time after 9pm on Tuesday, on Tuesday, I will XXX(rhymes with snow blob)XXX, etc.

After 25 years, it's going to take bluntness, I think. There's no finesse. It's you do this, I do this, or this (where this can be status quo or separation, etc).

At a minimum, I would stop washing my husband's clothes, changing his shower towel, paying his bills, making his lunch, clearing his plate from dinner. It's not like you can't cook for him if you're already feeding the kids, though.

[Rudyinparis]

Oh, Alicia, what an unpleasant situation! Here are some of my thoughts, maybe useful, maybe not.

I also will throw in with some other posters about trying not to listen or be affected by other women friends who use your situation to crow about theirs. This has TOTALLY happened to me, and it was so hurtful (and frankly, obvious) that I backed away from the friendship (no regrets). We never know what other peoples relationships are like behind closed doors--not really.

I have, as another poster said, a "toned down" version of this. No sex issues, but just your basic, run of the mill inequity regarding housework. 2 things happened recently that I feel I have changed things. The first is that a few months ago we had a small party and during the evening I was talking to DH's best friend (a very manly dude) and it came up that DH doesn't do any laundry. Friend was pretty shocked. I changed the subject. Friend has given DH no end of sh#t about it ever since. I owe Friend big time. Now, DH still doesn't do laundry, but that's not a big deal for me--he does help more around the house since then. The other thing that happened is that DH and I were talking about marriage recently--just a general conversation about why marriage works, or why it fails, and I said something like, "Well, I enjoy doing things for you--like your laundry, and cooking meals. And then you don't have to do those things." I said it without an agenda. DH got a thoughtful look on his face and said out loud, "That makes me wonder what I do for you that makes YOUR life easier." The silence that followed said pretty clearly, "Not that much, bub." I truthfully was pretty amazed that this kind of point never occurred to him before. But also since then, he's been doing a lot more around the house. I think it was some kind of lightbulb moment for him.

Can you make these occurrences happen between you and your husband? Probably not, but my main point is that despite wrangling over this issue for years and years, sometimes there are breakthroughs. It could happen. Keep the conversation going.

For your situation, I do agree with other posters that this is a pretty entrenched pattern, though. And Alicia, my heart really goes out to you. Stick with the counseling.

[Catherine]

I wonder if your husband really does understand how important this is to you? Sometimes I think women just try to do everything and do it quietly and wait for someone to notice, but they don't because they are clueless. I think you need to flat out tell him that one of the reasons you don't have more sex is that you're exhausted from everything else. And then think about very specific things he can be in charge of (my husband is always in charge of the grass, the trash, the basement, the pets, the fireplace, etc. He needs a list or he just doesn't think of it, so having these things as habit is helpful). One of our rules is that the other person can't complain about the way something is getting done unless they want to help with it (this will only work if your husband is putting reasonable effort into things; if his job is to clean the toilet and he doesn't for a month, then he's not holding up his end of the bargain. If you complain because he cleaned the toilet "wrong" because he used a cleaner or method you didn't like, but the toilet is in fact clean then you aren't holding up yours).

I mean, I can't help but think that on some level this is a communication issue. Because if it isn't a communication issue, then this guy is a jerk. Either way, I think it's bigger than workload?

[Anne]

If you can afford it, a housekeeper/cleaning person may help the surface issue of cleanliness.

[frogmama]

I ask my husband EVERY day for more help. I just keep asking and asking and asking. "Can you do the dishes?" "Can you grab the laundry?" "Can you empty the dishwasher?" I realize I'm probably going to spend a lifetime asking, but he helps when I ask (granted sometimes on his own schedule), and so I'm just going to keep doing it. Hands down, it's the only thing that has worked.

[yasmara]

What great comments! As others have said, what particularly strikes me is that this has been going on for 25 years...that's a long time & makes it very difficult to change the patterns of behavior (his and yours).

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that many of the typical "male" tasks (someone mentioned fixing the toilet, troubleshooting the computer) are not nearly as repetitive as typical "female" tasks. How often does the toilet need to be fixed compared to how often the laundry needs to be done (and folded, and put away)? This isn't always true (see shoveling in a cold climate or lawn mowing, but still they are more or less weekly, not daily), but it's true more often than not. It's what, when responsibilities are unequal or skewed along traditional gender lines, makes it so exhausting to handle all the "female" jobs.

The other thing that struck me is that the early 50s are a prime time for self reinvention, formerly known as a midlife crisis. The kids are (presumably) older, you're nearing the end of your career (perhaps less so in today's economy)...maybe your husband is feeling some of this...and maybe you are too, or you should be! What could your life look like if you made some big changes?

I also want to ask if this is a problem you could solve by throwing money at it, for example getting a cleaning person (if the budget allows) or if this a problem that's a symptom of something larger, such as not feeling like your husband listens to you or values everything you do? I'm leaning towards the latter, given that you said you're already in counseling.

[Amanda]

Although this may not work for Alicia's issue, one tactic that works well for me and my husband is the "this or that" question.

Do you want to clean up after dinner or give the kids a bath? Do you want to run to the store for milk and fruit or vacuum the main floor? etc etc etc

We both do it to the other, when there's a number of things to get done and one of us has kind of tuned out of 'getting things done.' It gets us both back on track and solidifies what needs to get done.

I also second the LIST suggestion. A few years ago, I made a to-do list for myself and happened to leave it on the kitchen counter. My husband started working on a number of the items, completely unprompted. It made me realize how little value there is in me keeping my to-do list internal. Making it external really helped my husband understand all the things it was taking to keep the house running, and was more than willing to help once he knew what needed to get done.

[han]

This is a challenge that our household faces as well, and one that we are trying to address before we decide if we will try for child #2.

My husband is very "in-his-head" and has said that he is not the kind of person who can look around and notice that xyz chore needs to be done. It just isn't in his makeup. I should have known this from the first time I saw his apartment when we started dating. Whereas, I don't want to nag someone, I want them to just see the need and take care of it.

We discussed putting a detailed list of everything that needs to be done in the house -- daily, weekly, occassionally. And then assigning him set tasks that can become ingrained. For him, he agreed that would be best for how his mind works. I just made the list over the weekend, so we haven't implemented yet.

In my mind, it would be utterly masochistic to have another child given our current division of labor, and I am fairly certain that either our marriage or my sanity would not survive it. At the same time, I don't want to resent my husband if I get to the place where I really want a second but we can't make it work because of the household division of labor. We're not at decision time yet, so I think we can keep working on solutions.

I would echo that it is important for the OP AND her kids to work on this. In my family, my father doesn't help as much as my mom thinks he should, and she has spent A LOT of time complaining to me about it for the last two decades. As a result, I don't really know how to have a non-adversarial relationship with my husband at it comes to household chores, since my only model was my mom doing everything while rolling her eyes and complaining to me. She rarely mentioned anything about his good qualities (there are many), so I have this vision, I am sorry to say, of the stereotypical "useless husband" that pops up from the reptilian part of my brain whenever I am feeling stressed about household tasks. My mom must recognize the good qualities because they're still married and like spending time together, but she has never shared the full picture with me, just the complaining. I think this dynamic has impacted both my brother's and my sense of what is "normal" in relationships -- I doubt that my mom has any idea of this, she was just so frustrated that she needed to tell someone.

Best wishes to the OP and everyone working on this!

[Anonymous]

We made a comprehensive list of things that need to be done to make the house run and then negotiated as a family to assign responsibilities. We also let some housework go because we are in survival mode with parenting right now. My husband does more housework than I do, but I am up at night with our son and go to bed early to compensate. We have an understanding that we will re-negotiate housework when our sleep situation improves.

[Elle]

Great suggestions here. For us, we got there by doing couples therapy (worth every damn penny!) where the balance of chores was among several issues. And therapy helped us focus on fundamentally liking each other, wanting a more harmonious relationship, seeking to show more care and respect toward each other, etc. That was a key piece. It's sort of chicken & egg, in that realizing we did share those feelings helped each of us concretely DO more things that are meaningful to the other person, and then doing those things fed the feelings of friendship and commitment. Now it sort of moves along in the background, but it did take therapy shining a bright light on it for awhile to get us on track.

The other useful thing was talking about Love Languages (mediated by the couples therapist originally). "Acts of service" is a huge one for me! (My 20-something self would not have said this, but my parenting self, YES.) Somehow that helped us accept that we have different things we value, and our partner can respect and speak to those things because they love us (or want to have sex tonight). It diffused some of the control/nag aspects out of the chores issue for my husband, I think.

[MrsHaley]

Two things - First, as a newlywed, I read somewhere that your partner's apartment when he/she is single represents what his/her "standards" are. When I get a bug up my butt about how well my husband can tolerate filth, I think back to his bachelor apartment. Indeed, the evidence was there that he CAN tolerate filth, rather well!!

Here's my suggestion for the OP. IF you are aiming to maintain the relationship, IF your job is NOT a huge part of your sanity/identity and IF the financial implications are workable, you might try quitting your job, or going halftime. Financially, the loss might be equal to hiring a cleaner/cook/sending the laundry out, and you would have more time to accomplish all these things. It could be explained by simply saying you don't have the stamina for the status quo, and the tradeoff has to come from somewhere -- either you do the work or you pay someone else to do it (assuming none of the solutions for getting him to pitch in actually work). Seeing how you're willing to put a PRICE on the work might get through to him. Or it might be ok with him to contract it out. Or it might be ok with him for you to cut back on work hours. Would it be ok with YOU?

This is the situation we have set up, but without the initial "no-helping" alternative. Cooking, cleaning, laundry, and appointments are my department, mowing/shoveling and finances are his. I work professionally only 15 hours a week. The difference might be that this is the setup I wanted because I hated my fulltime job and like keeping house.

[ACJ]

We had this problem in reverse - my husband felt he had too many jobs and I wasn't pulling my weight. I truly didn't care as much about several things as he did and so let him do them to his standard because... well, why would I bother doing something so that he could tell me how not good enough it was? Oh, and sex was on his list too.

So, some things that have helped? me making a list of the things I do that are important but less visible (banking, insurance, healthcare, all meal planning, and so on...) and leaving it posted on a chalkboard in the middle of our home. It reminded ME I was useful and valuable and reminded him I was doing my "share". I also added a few things to my rhythm that I knew were going to make a big difference to how he felt, but didn't cost me much - mainly moving all the kids' toys to a place we can't see them when we're in the living room, and vacuuming the rugs while he puts the kids to bed. He *sees* a difference and he's happier and oddly enough, now I am too. Win, win. Not perfect but a major improvement. Effort counts as it turns out.

As for the sex, I also wanted a better sex life, so that helped. And so did this book: http://www.amazon.com/The-Essential-Elements-Sex-Lifetime/dp/1475955294/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358358738&sr=8-1&keywords=9+essential+elements+of+sex. A LOT. Actually, it has helped with all my Turning 40 This Year life change plans.

Good luck out there. If I can improve, I have to think just about anybody can.

[BMT]

I'm going to make a somewhat radical suggestion here: give him the sex. For a short amount of time (2-3 weeks?), give him what he wants with nothing expected or demanded in return - even though you're exhausted and a little angry. And see what happens. Is he happier? Does he eventually respond in kind?
I think sometimes relationships just get stuck (as someone else said, me vs. you instead of us vs. the world) and you need to do something radical to get them unstuck.
I took this approach at a point when I was obsessed with 50:50 split (which I think can be death to relationships) and I said, "okay, I'm going to make it 100:0 for the next few weeks and give everything I can". And it was a wonderful turnaround. And now it ebbs and flows; some weeks I give more and some weeks he gives more but if you're both always trying to give more to the relationship rather than an equal split (or less), things should work out. Now of course, you need the husband to respond, but try something radical and see what happens. Best of luck

[Slim]

I am really depressed at the number of people who are talking about husbands "helping." It is his house; the things he does are not "helping," they are just doing chores, the way grownups do. Every time you call it "help," you are validating the belief that it is a woman's job and anything a man does is a bonus for which we should be thankful.

I don't know how to get someone to change after 25 years, because for 25 years you've been sending a message that you are willing to tolerate his behavior, and he is probably thinking, "I told her where I stood, so what is she complaining about?"

And yet divorcing over household chores seems awful.

I will say that if the problem is that he doesn't know what needs doing, it can be helpful to have a list posted somewhere: Things That Always Need Doing -- Empty trash cans, laundry, recycling, going through mail, etc.

Is he hopeless at any sort of chore, or is he just bad at cleaning bathrooms and floors?

[Megn]

It is very much worth considering what your children are learning in this situation. My Dad did and does a lot of housework/child rearing and I wouldn't have tolerated anything different for a second, because that's the standard my parents' action taught me.

If you don't want to divide out chores, another approach that I've read about has both partners giving the same amount of time. Set a timer for twenty minutes, and both work on what they would for that time (dusting, sweeping, folding). If he isn't accustomed to housework, that may not be as useful, but at least he'd be working as long as you would.

Mostly, though, it sounds to me like you want new boundaries. Could you go to individual therapy? Individual therapy could change you, and a change in you will ripple through the systems you live in.

[Stephanie]

I haven't read most of the moments but...here's my 2 cents: Put the sex first. Make that a priority. A blogger I read a lot (Cecily Kellogg of the Uppercase Lowdown) talked about "f*cking it out" on Babble recently and it makes sense. Have more sex and you'll want more. Maybe skip a few chores one night a week to "make" the time.
The sex is married stuff. The chore stuff- that's roommate stuff, separate from your relationship, to quote from the blogpost. Maybe if he feels he's getting his needs met, he'll help more. Maybe there are other solutions (kids, hiring chores out). And maybe I am presuming you really want this relationship to work, when really you're ready to just leave. But there ya go- my thoughts in a nutshell :)

[Andrea]

This idea probably isn't popular, but what about going ahead and having more sex and more fun sex and see if that improves his cooperation. If he is happier with the amount and quality of sex then maybe he will be more than willing to give more to his wife in terms of housework.

Not sure more sex will solve the respect issue though.

[Yet another Jen]

Hey Cloud, didn't mean to imply that you or anyone else here shouldn't mention their more equitable arrangement--sorry, I can see how my comment might have come off that way. Here the OP is explicitly asking us for advice so I think it's a little more OK (also because I think it's useful for her to know that some people DO have a better division of labor). And also, you and your blog are awesome and I've been reading you for years, so pretty much anything you say is OK by me. :-) As for my tragic libido, just because someone above mentioned it, 1-2x/week is how often we have sex, but I'd probably be OK with once a month, or maybe even less. I enjoy it when I have it, but for me it's more about keeping my husband happy and maintaining that aspect of our relationship than my physical need. I want to be wanting it more, ya know? And now that my kids are older I would prefer to be more into it. Anyway! More than anyone wanted to know, I'm sure.

[Jessica S.]

This is an amazing discussion, really helpful.

A few things that occur to me.

1. I've had to either decide to take responsibility for or let go of my standards for things my husband does differently or not as well. I do all the laundry, because he sucks at folding and putting away and separating, and he works very long hours and just doesn't really have time for it. So I don't resent him for not helping with it. I just do it. On the other hand, whenever he washes the dishes, I remind myself to be thankful that he did it, rather than complain that some of them aren't as clean as I'd like. So if you have different standards, then you can't blame him for doing it "wrong." It's not "wrong" to him. I try to remember, "If you want it done your way, you have to do it yourself." Unfortunately, this means that you end up doing everything (unless there's something he does better than you), or that you let go of your "right" way and just be glad it's done.

2. When someone asks me over and over to do something, I feel nagged. However, my husband told me that if I need him to do something and he keeps forgetting, I need to keep asking. To him, it's not nagging, it's reminding. I hate repeating myself, and I don't want to feel like a nag, but to my husband, it's necessary or he won't remember to do it! So maybe a gentle, "Honey, could you wash the dinner dishes tonight?" every few days might help?

3. I'm not so sure you should or can bargain sex for housework. To him, it could be, "Well, if you have more sex with me, I'll do more work;" and all the while you're thinking, "If you do more housework, I'll give you more sex." That gets neither of you anywhere. What if you just decide (yourself) that you'll have sex every (Friday? Sunday?) night, regardless. Get yourself in the mood, set your mind to it. When he feels that he's getting the appreciation he needs (sex), then maybe he'll be more open to hearing what you're saying. It's a two-way street.

4. I echo the "Can you hire a housekeeper?" sentiment. We have someone come just once every four weeks to really clean well, and it takes a huge burden off of both of us knowing that neither of us is responsible for any heavy scrubbing or major dusting; we just have to do maintenance in between maid visits.

[Tetris]

Can you get a maid?

I seriously believe a maid is required for some couples to free themselves from the resentful dance of chores.

If you felt like you had someone to help, maybe the daily pain would subside. After that, maybe you could find agreement or work on other problems in your relationship.

I think outsourcing things can be good therapy.

[Celeste]

Hmmm, well I am usually the one who will say, Kick him to the curb!, but this time I think you have something to work with. If you do most meals, does that mean he does some? Or are you just accounting for times when you eat out? If he does do some cooking, I would work to get him doing more cooking. I would negotiate it to a regular thing, such as he cooks one dinner per night. If that amounts to canned tomato soup and grilled cheese sandwiches, then so be it. At least you didn't have to deal with it. Then I would negotiate to two meals a week, and possible even make one night Pizza Night. If you could get down to cooking only twice during the work week, I think you would feel much better about things.

I also think you should pick what makes you more stressed about the childcare, and see about getting him doing it. Put on his calendar when the childrens' next appointments are, and ask him to take them. Just say this is how it needs to work. On the chance that he actually can't get away from work during the week (ie no paid leave, or would have to make it up on the weekend etc.) then fine, he needs to take them on their next clothes shopping, shoe buying, gear accumulating trip ON A WEEKEND. Men can indeed handle this, and I see nothing wrong with saying those three magic words, It's Your Turn. I feel he hasn't really heard them before, and so he thinks it never HAS to be his turn.

He might balk, but you will need to stand your ground and say, that was then, and this is now...TIMES CHANGE. It does sound as if you have come to dealbreaker time. If you get to a conversation where you talk about leaving, you can remind him that when he's alone, ALL of these household tasks will fall to him and there will be no one to take his crap about how housekeeping "just doesn't matter to me so do it all yourself". Maybe you need to Netflix "Hope Springs". Spoiler: Meryl Streep does indeed lower the boom on Tommy Lee Jones that yes I lived like this, but I don't intend to do it any longer. He gets with the program.

If you are really that super angry with him over it all, I do not recommend that you just throw a bunch of sex his way, just yet. I think it would be too hurtful to you to give in when you've had 25 years of giving in and never getting what you wanted. While it's a shame that you let it go on this long, I think you need to give yourself some space here to feel like he really is changing his ways. What I recommend is to ramp up the affection in daily life as he does better. Catch him doing good and praise. Brag about him to the kids and family. Sweeten things up and see if that helps you get good feelings again. No matter how you slice it, I really can't get behind forcing yourself to have sex with somebody that is making you unhappy. I don't see how that can make you feel good at all. The point is to get to a healthier place in the relationship.

Good luck, and please let us know how things go.

[Celeste]

Hey, meant to say, cook one dinner per workweek, not one dinner per night. lol

[han]

I can't remember how I came across this blog, but it's The Happiest Mom. Here was the post I ran across, and it really struck me, particularly the part about "Only You Can Make Yourself Happy" http://thehappiestmom.com/?p=1017 Unfortunately, it already sounds as though Alicia has told her husband in no uncertain terms what she would like him to do. I'm not good at that, personally, as my mother preferred the martyr approach rather than confrontation. I did think that there were some good thoughts in the post, though, that might be helpful.

[Cloud]

@Jen, no worries! And thanks for the kind words. Believe me, I know that my set up is unusual and talking about it annoys some people. I have on occasion been accused of lying... there is a whole set of posts that came out of one of those times, starting with one about how my husband isn't a unicorn (i.e., a man who contributes equally at home is not a mythical creature, they do actually exist).

On the fact that it seems sort of ridiculous to divorce over chores: to me, it wouldn't be divorcing over chores. It would be divorcing over a lack of respect of me and my time, as evidenced by his unwillingness to work with me to find a solution to a problem that is clearly bothering me. To me, the chores issue would just be a symptom of a deeper problem that I could not tolerate.

I know that sounds harsh, and I am not necessarily advocating that the OP divorce- just that she think carefully about what the chores issue means to her, and what she is willing to do to change it.

[SusanOR]

Only got through some of the comments but don't want to lose this thought. Han said "Whereas, I don't want to nag someone, I want them to just see the need and take care of it."

I know I really had to come to grips with this myself and along the Getting to Yes formula, figure out which was more important to me: getting him to do the task (and my not having to do it) or getting him to do the task WITHOUT MY ASKING.

Once I determined that, for me, it was more important to get some of these tasks off my shoulders, I got better at making specific requests: Please empty the dishwasher. Could you get that load of laundry folded while I pay the bills? It's really important for me to get back to yoga, so would you be willing to take kiddo to XYZ every week while I attend yoga class?

Where I think many people shut down is when the request is coupled with a criticism or complaint "You never empty the dishwasher" or "I do all these things, can't you just take care of the laundry". Because then, you are putting two things out there (request and complaint) and you are more likely to have your complaint addressed than the request met. And the complaint address is more likely to be in the form of the-best-defense-is-a-good-offense: Attack!

You may be completely entitled to your complaint but will it be successful in getting the desired behavior? Probably not, so time to change strategy.