I'm back, sort of!

Wow, strep throat is a horrible thing. And Prednisone is a drug I'd never though much of, but now have a very healthy respect for. I'm very energetic. And perky. And unable to sleep (three hours the first night, seven max each since even with being very vigilant). I'm stepping down from it now.

One of the side effects of the Prednisone is that I'm slightly cranky and have no filter. Which doesn't lend itself well to writing answers to any questions from parents with problems they'd like help with. So today we're going to open it up to you all, so I don't stick my foot in it and make someone feel bad.

The topic is navigating the border of being a buttinski or helping when someone you know is having a parenting issue that they can't figure out but is, to you, a straight line. The specific scenario I'm thinking about is the combo of too little sleep and discipline problems in a preschooler, but another equally applicable scenario is parents and kids who are in a chronic whining/giving in/whining cycle.

Do you say something like "I wonder if you played around with putting her to bed an hour earlier she might not melt down as much"? or do you just MYOB? What if it affects *your* kid because the other child's behavior affects the classroom of group of kids playing?

Thoughts?

Comments

[going for the anon this time]

Interesting drug side effects!

Good question. I have a friend whom I never know where to say something and where to MYOB. I see plenty of instances that would maybe just take a fresh perspective to change, but I think I give my opinion a bit too freely as it is, and she probably doesn't want to hear what I have to say about her kids.
It does sometimes affect my kid if they are playing together. I try to curb the sugar intake, and with her, it becomes *way* more than my kid should have in a week or two, really. So I try to say limit what my kid gets, but she'll pile on so much for her kids that mine feels deprived. Sigh.

[Diana]

I wouldn't say anything. I also wouldn't want someone to say something to me, unless I asked (I do ask friends' opinions on things like this from time to time.)

[MLB]

I say something. I tend to be blunt anyway and in all honesty I would hope someone would do the same for me. That being said, what I say is along the lines of "Have you tried?" or "Yeah, when A did that, we tried this and it seemed to help". I actually think though that saying something has very little effect. The people that I know that have had the most issues with their kids are also fairly unwilling to hear anything about it. I have one friend whose child at age 5 has recently been diagnosed with SPD and might also be on the autism spectrum. Many people (myself actually not included) tried to let her know that her son's behavior was not typical and she always thought that it was his setting and he was not in the right environment. He started at a Waldorf school last fall and they immediately told her that he had issues that were not typical for an active 4 year old. She still resisted and only after watching her two younger sons did she start to think that perhaps he was having more difficulty than he needed to. He started OT a month ago. That was a long way of saying, I lean towards saying something but have not yet found that it makes a difference anyway.

[the milliner]

On Prednisone: Hmmm...interesting side effects. DH has been taking Prednisone 2x daily for almost 15 years. He's been known to be rather direct at times, so kinda makes me wonder about the 'no filter' effect. Interesting.

On butting in or MYOB, I think it depends on the friend and how they would perceive my well-intentioned-but-maybe-not-wanted advice. If they are the kind of person that I've had parenting discussions with before, or they are a good friend, I will usually make a suggestion. Especially if they talk about it a lot. But, if they have not received suggestions well in the past, or are just the kind of person that's not into sharing parenting advice, I usually MYOB. If it's something that directly affects my kid, I'll address the thing that affects my kid, not necessarily what I consider to be the root problem. The fact is, I may feel (strongly) that the discipline problems are sleep related. But the fact is, I don't really know all the details. But I do know for a fact what affects my kid. So, if it' something that needs addressing between the parents (as opposed to being worked out by the kids themselves), I'll do that.

When I am going to bring something up, I usually wait until they bring the subject up or a subject that will easily segue into the advice/suggestion. And then I'll often say something like 'I read somewhere that...' or 'Sometimes X helps...It's not always the answer, but we did it and it really helped', so that I can give the other parent an out if they a)don't want to try it, b) don't have success with it or c)have already tried it and are sick of people suggesting that they do it.

[SarcastiCarrie]

It depends on whether I think it will help. And I'm always very non-direct about it. Very subtle.
I'll say, "Oh, my sister-in-law had that issue with her blah-blah-blah and he really needed to avoid TV after 6pm and go to bed at 7. He was so high energy." Or whatever.

Or my favorite, "It's so hard when they beg like that isn't it? Melts my heart. (big sigh and knowing glance) I really wish I didn't have to be the bad cop sometimes."

[Cori]

Wow! I feel like you wrote that just for me. My three-year-old son just started preschool and out of the blue started getting in trouble for hitting. He sleeps ten hours each night with no nap during the day. I bet if I got him to sleep an hour earlier it would help a lot. But I already feel like I'm running an obstacle course each night trying to get both kids to bed. How am I going to manage to get him into bed an hour earlier? *Sigh*

[Laura]

Crazy that this is today's topic! I just spent my lunch hour talking to a good friend who has no idea how to discipline her kids. Major whining/giving in cycle, among other things. The writing has been on the wall for a while (her girls *completely* run the show at her house) and I've been wondering what to say, if anything.

Well, I decided to keep my mouth shut and only offer advice if she asks. A year went by, but she finally came to me this morning and said, "I need help. I really want your advice. My kids don't listen to anything I say and I want to change. Please tell me what I can do." It was a terrific conversation. She totally owned her part in how bad it has gotten and wasn't defensive when I offered suggestions. And I wasn't annoyed so I was able to commiserate and share stories about my own failures and successes as well. Nobody is perfect at this. And it's hard, really hard.

So, I guess I'm in the MYOB camp. I don't know if it's always the best way, but it sure worked in this case!

[Rudyinparis]

I don't give advice unless I am clearly asked. I have found what most people want is compassion, not advice. And, frankly, I've gotten the business end of the "Well, we have Darling put her toys AWAY when she's done with them!" stick once too often. Seriously. This is something I really work on, parsing out when it's advice, not compassion people want. I have found it is rarely the former. Also, my SIL is a Virgo and do you want to tell her what you think she should do? I think not. (LOL)

[hush]

@MLB said: "I lean towards saying something but have not yet found that it makes a difference anyway." I agree, but have the opposite conclusion: I am always trying to lean back towards keeping my own agenda out of it. Just active listening. I'm insecure and I like to stay friends with people, and so to do that, I have found that we are all really just going to do what we're going to do, and no one never takes advice. They are just looking for approval like we all do. Then they eff up, learn from it, and life goes on.

I'm trying to get better at reading people for when they just want to vent versus when they actually want my assvice. Nine times out of 10, they just want to vent. When I hear them say things like "What do you think I should do?" I actually have to make myself confirm with them "Are you asking for my advice? or did you just want to vent?" Even if they ask for advice, I let them vent more and say things like "It's hard." Then I might give the advice if they ask again. Can you tell I've been burned by the assvice-giving?

[lisa]

For 10 years I worked in a setting where I had contact with dozens of kids on the autism spectrum. In 1998 my husbands brother had a child who 2 years later was obviously autistic. I did not suggest autism, but I did suggest her be evaluated by a local center for autism, and that they try the CHAT with him, it was online. Meanwhile BIL's mother wanted to sue the delivering doctor for damaging the little boy. They asked their pediatrician who told them he was most certainly not autistic because he was bonded with mommy. At six he was finally diagnosed as autistic. In the intervening years he did get therapies which probably were very similar to standard autism therapies.

In another vein, years ago confronted my alcoholic brother, begged him to get help, yelled at him to stop driving around mom and dad, stirred up the whole family. He stopped talking to me, his kids pretty much hated me, and the family divided. In the end he died from it and the family remained divided.

My lesson: Its possible some people are effective at interventions, constructive criticism, suggestions, but I am not. I will try to keep what I think is wisdom to myself, unless my child is in the balance.

Or if Moxites are chatting, see I can't stop! Please tell me to shut up...

[the milliner]

@Rudyinparis & @Hush make really good points about reading what someone really wants, and deciphering when someone wants compassion, not advice. I'll usually go in with compassion first. Often that opens up the door and then a conversation about possible solutions naturally happens. Or sometimes, it's just commiserating.

@Rudyinparis, "...my SIL is a Virgo and do you want to tell her what you think she should do? I think not." Bwahahahahaha! Now THAT's funny.

[bethp]

I only give advice if asked specifically, "I don't know what to do - do you have that problem?" And then it's always something very specific, an easily adapted tool that worked for me, or even just an insight into why the behavior may be happening, which helps too. These are prefaced with, "I just read something really interesting" or "I tried this with C and it really helped!" Which they can take or leave, without judgement.

But I do give huge doses of compassion, especially when the child is younger than mine. Lots of "That sucks so bad. That must be so hard/frustrating/draining/painful...over and over, and it's usually what people want. I find it helps a lot when someone does it to me, too. My husband is the guy who always wants to help with a solution. I don't need that from my friends, too!

[My Kids Mom]

I almost bit off my tongue yesterday. I was sitting by two women who were complaining about their private school's new "no peanut" rule. I overheard, "But my 5yo only eats two things- the chicken nuggets from Lunchables and PB&J. So now I have to send her with chicken nuggets for 180 days of school! It is so unfair!" Said 5yo was whining and fussing and was offered a gatorade to keep her quiet. I said not a word.

If I had felt forced to participate in the conversation I would have felt too preachy. If her philosophy had been closer to mine, maybe I'd have felt that it was worth giving an opinion, but she was too far to the opposite end of the spectrum for it to be worthwhile. It can be hard for me to NOT give my opinion, but I'm working on it!

[Slim]

I tend towards the "wait until you're asked" end, although I will occasionally make an opening: "Isn't it frustrating when you've tried a million things and not one of them seems to work?"

I tend to assume that most people are getting all the advice they want, and then some, and I don't want to pile on. I've certainly been on the receiving end of that, and I rarely hear anything that I'd be open to and haven't tried yet.

Well, except here, of course.

(I do occasionally snap, but not on child-rearing, I don't think. But if any of you were planning on tracking me down and ranting repeatedly about someone you're constantly battling with, I am not your dream audience. Just FYI.)

[TodayWendy]

The whining/giving in/whining thing is tough. We've got friends with older kids who have a huge problem with that, and I haven't found anything to say. Although we recently spent a weekend with them and my husband applied our "zero tolerance" whining policy liberally to all kids in the vicinity - with the explanation to anyone who cared that we were having a lot of trouble with the whining and needed to have the older kids help set an example. Which seemed to go over ok, and helped our situation for the weekend, but probably didn't have any long-term effect.

I have noticed that often I'll just tune my daughter out when I'm concentrating on something, but that the whining will really get through. I wonder how much of the problem is kids just not getting heard unless they're whining. In which case the solution isn't to punish the whining, or to refuse to give in to whining, but to do a better job of listening in the first place.

On a totally unrelated topic, middle-of-the-night, hour-long temper-tantrums totally suck. Not that I would have any way of knowing this...

[caro]

If it's a friend, and they're struggling, and I feel like I know an easy/obvious solution, I say so. "Why don't you ...?" Maybe this irritates some people, but it's what I would want (do want) when I'm the clueless one. When someone is all sugarcoated about it ("I heard that sometimes it can help to...") it just sounds fake to me, like the advice-giver is trying to appear less knowledgeable than they actually believe they are, and ick. If it's a friend, they know I respect them and am offering what I know from my perspective.

If it's not a friend (an acquaintance, fellow school mom, etc.) I butt out.

[MrsHaley]

My rule of thumb is that it's ALWAYS better to be kind & loving than to be right. ALWAYS.

That said, among my very small, tightly-knit group of friends, I would feel comfortable speaking up if I could think of a tactic that hadn't been attempted. Between the 6 of us, we war-game one another's parenting issues pretty much nonstop.

For someone less intimate, I would wait wait wait until I was asked directly, and even then, I would reflect and reiterate feelings before I would give suggestions.

Like Slim, I try to assume everyone has done the requisite research and is well-informed and responsible, making the very best decisions for her family & situation. I end up feeling like Mother to the World if I don't assume that, and that's just too damn much responsibility.

[dregina]

@SarcastiCarrie - I am a yankee transplanted to the South, and I have to admit that the Southern style of sneaky advice giving (often disguised as either compliments or empathy when it's neither ) absolutely drives me up a wall! It's very much the norm here, completely the opposite of the norm where I came from, and I haven't yet found a polite way to say, "I appreciate that you are trying to help, but I don't like being manipulated." Can you suggest a good, Southern-style-manners response to that kind of "under the radar" behavior shaping that I could use when I need it? I work with a bunch of women from the South, and I am just completely outmaneuvered.

[laura]

Honestly? This is why I include parenting advice on my blog. So I can preach without being completely direct!! Plus, it just gets the rantiness out of my system so I can be with sub-par parents and not blow a gasket. HAhahahaha.

In person, I try to just let my relationship with Dd shine through (often we're with her peers and they're all having the same kind of meltdown/issue/crisis). I will not offer advice unless asked for help.

[Charisse]

I'm firmly on the MYOB end, unless asked. Particularly if my advice would fit what most of the books say, like putting a kid to bed an hour early, I'd hold it back assuming the parent has heard that one. If we did something weird and successful for a very similar problem I might mention it as "this worked for us" with a lot of "of course your mileage may vary". So I bite my tongue about one of Mouse's best friends who drinks nothing but Vitamin Water and juice boxes and still has these total meltdowns at almost-7. I just can't see it being taken well, in which case it won't help.

[Emmie (Bettter Make It A Double)]

I can back you up on that side effect. My son, 5 with severe asthma that is becoming moderate, has no filter or impulse control on that stuff. We took a plane trip from hell with him on it last winter. Hi threw a huge hissy at check-in. He kicked the seat in front of us the whole way home, and cried for much of it, causing people behind us and in front of us to complain loudly about that "brat". After the flight, he jumped up onto the moving railing of the moving walkway, put both arms and legs out like an airplane, and yelled "wheeeeeeee!" Hope you feel better.

[Rudyinparis]

Mrs. Haley, your beautiful sentiment, "My rule of thumb is that it's ALWAYS better to be kind & loving than to be right. ALWAYS." makes me think of what I recently heard a friend saying: "Remember, at the end of the argument, if the person you're fighting with is crying, you lost." This has really been on my mind lately.

And, for the record, Virgos often possess a chutzpah and brashness that I admire very much! No disrespect intended to my Moxie Virgo sistahs! Or my SIL! Who, by the way, could stand to be told that they have pills to give your pets that get rid of fleas. God, I hope she doesn't read Ask Moxie, or I am totally busted.

[anonthistime]

Just dealing with this with my sister (younger) whose kids are actually older than mine. She posted something on my facebook wall about something her youngest son did to her older son, and his consequence...but this is not unusual behavior - her son has a lot of boundary issues and issues with competition with older brother. She asked me for suggestions (!) and when I called her she had backed down and was telling me all's good. Except it's not. Aside from book recommendations (Siblings Without Rivalry) and gentle suggestions about possibly trying to eliminate the competitive aspect of the brothers....she's not really open to suggestions. It's frustrating, because there are a number of factors I would suggest to her as possibly working (diet, amount of sleep, etc.) that she would not receive well. I try to MYOB and hope that one of her mom friends might have better luck.

[ada]

this has touched a raw nerve with me. It is straining the relationship I have with my BF of 10 years.

Its really, really hard to MYOB when your best friend's kid has repeatedly, for 3 years, hit your kid. And the best she does is "threaten" a time-out. Or "threaten" to take him home from the playdate. She NEVER follows through with any threat. And now her son is learning that if he yells loud enough, he will get what he wants.

I tend to butt in and boss people around. And it never works and always back fires.

So I have found the best thing to do now is to focus on what *I* can control and leave everything else alone.

I have concentrated on helping my son learn to use his words and say "No! Stop hitting me!" instead of whining, crying or hitting back. Although I was secretly relieved and happy when he started giving it back to our friends son. And really suprised at the parents reaction. They said "but our son is tackling and hitting out of fun. Your son is just being mean!" ???!!

And I follow through with my stated consequences. Because it works. If I say the play date will end if you don't stop fighting, you better believe me! I had to ask our friends to leave our home last weekend because my son hit her son after his toy was snatched away. They had been fighting for several hours, and I had already told him several times what the consquences were. If I just let it go, again, he knows I'm just blowing smoke out my ass.

HUGE tantrums ensued from both childern, but I held firm. It was time for our friends to go home. If we had been at their house, we would have left.

When I asked my son the next day if he knew why we had to ask his friend to leave, he immediately said "because we couldn't stop fighting". From a 3 yo.

Turns out my best friend though it was too harsh of a "punishment" when she herself had been telling her son "if you don't stop fighting, we'll have to leave!" She said her son was *so* upset and thought it was his fault, and that upset her.

Its exhausting and puts a big strain on our friendship. I just focus on my family and my home. Her son is expected to follow the rules at my hosue "no throwing toys, no hitting" etc. I feel comfortable telling them "these are the rules here."

[Heather/Cobblestone]

If I thought I was being normal in any of the big arenas (sleep, food, communication) I might say something but I'm somewhere between granola mama and alien from another planet so I pretty much keep quiet.

[Shannon]

I never give advice. I hate unsolicited advice-givers. The thing is, I probably don't know the whole story of what is going on with another family, and therefore I'm not qualified to advise them as to what to do.

[tk_zk]

Such a funny topic. Totally depends on the friend and whether or not advice is asked for or the parent seems unhappy with the situation at all. Especially about sleep and breastfeeding, I try to suss out the parenting philosophy before addressing anything, even if advice is asked for. There are many ways to skin a cat with both topics.

Anecdote on this topic: I was at the park playing with this random father/daughter (both our daughters are two y.o.). Both girls were enjoying picking up dirt/woodchips and throwing them, both the random father and I were telling the girls no. I told my daughter "next time you do that, you're getting put in the stroller for two minutes"--and I followed through and she stopped. Random father kept threatening his daughter with a "time out" about 50 times (seriously) and finally, I said "Wow, it seems like someone reeeally wants a time out!"

He ignored me, and we continued to play together nicely until we both left. I don't even think my "advice" registered with him!

[Thy]

I MYOB and even when people flat out ask for advice I find they generally just want to talk about it and mull over their own different ideas of what to do. So I listen and bite my tongue and try to give feed back only of what they themselves are feeding me. This has worked well in practice so far, but of course it would be impossible to keep up if I thought they were actually damaging the child. Also, this does not apply to my two best mom-friends. With these women I can speak freely even when we don't agree.

[Cloud]

I'll make book recommendations, but not much more unless specifically asked.

@TodayWendy: you, too? I think ours was gas, but I didn't like being screamed at for an hour in the wee hours of the morning, thank you very much. (Although I couldn't help but giggle when she finally farted and then let out this little sigh of relief and snuggled in and went to sleep....)

@Cori- are you asking for advice? :)
Seriously, can you hold on until the time change? Probably not, huh? But that makes it easier to move bedtimes earlier. I take advantage of that every year to try to reset to an earlier bedtime. I never get an hour earlier, but I always get something....

[Anonymous this time]

I swear Prednisone is different now, or maybe I just wasn't as aware as a child. But I feel like whenever anyone in my house is on it, they are really not themselves. My son can't hold back. I'm up all night. My dog counter surfs. You name it.

Anyway, thanks for a moment to vent: what if the problem (like the calls in the horror movies) is coming from inside your own house???

I'll tell my husband the kids are exhausted. And they are. And they are crazy running around when he walks in and he looks at me and says, "Oh, yeah, EXHAUSTED!" like I'm lying. Despite *years* of this behavior, he simply does not see the tired energy as what it is and thinks I'm not getting them out for enough exercise.

I am. (I think. Who ever knows?) But they are pooped from the day and trying to stay awake for some daddy time. And I cannot get him to see it.

This is one of the few points of disagreement we have but it drives me crazy. And I know if he were writing, he'd be saying in all earnestness, "I know if my wife would just spend more time outside with them, they'd be docile and sleepy when I came home!"

End of rant. Thank you.

[parisienne mais presque]

I'm with @hush and @rudyinparis: on the big things (potty training and infant sleep come to mind) I'm mostly looking for commiseration, not advice. The only advice I (sort of) appreciate is the "we tried this, and although all kids are different, it's worth a try." So that's the kind I offer, when I offer any at all.

As for the random strangers/people I only sort of know at work/etc, I agree with @Shannon: I never have the whole story, so I refrain from offering advice at all. Especially since I live in a culture where I'm sure my parenting style differs significantly from that of 90% of the other parents out there. I still judge -- wrongly, I'm sure, most of the time -- but I keep my thoughts to myself, and am grateful that others do the same for me.

Finally, becoming a parent has destroyed many of the neat, simple ideas I used to have about Parenting (with a capital P). I mean, I used to think that parents who didn't make their kids eat the family meal were pushovers. Now? My three-year-old only regularly eats three vegetables, which we stock (along with plenty of applesauce) in the refrigerator. He'll eat parts of the family meal, especially the animal protein bits, but the rest I just let slide. So, hey.

That said, there are some parenting subjects that I'm super-excited about (breastfeeding, for example, or using non-violent communication techniques) and if anyone gets me started, I'll talk about them forever in the abstract.

@Cori - here's some unsolicited commiseration (hee hee): my son just started preschool, and I've noticed that he's been pretty off-kilter during the transition. He doesn't hit other kids, but he is much more tantrum-prone at home and he's reportedly having some trouble listening to the teacher at school. But, good news! We just started week 3 and he's finally starting to seem himself again.

I'm with you on the sleep, though -- my son doesn't nap either, and getting him into bed at a reasonable hour for the new school wake-up time is a challenge. We're making progress, but I think he does need about 30 mins to 1 hour more than we're built into the schedule on school nights. Transitions for us, too...

[Cloud]

@parisienne- I'm with you on the impact becoming a parent has had on my (admittedly vague) ideas about what constitutes good parenting. I look back at what the naive young woman that I was thought, and I laugh. Sp I try to cut my childless friends some slack when they offer parenting advice. Even when it is based on what works for their cats.

And as someone who mostly ate meat and white things growing up, who is raising a daughter who won't even eat potatoes yet (seriously- what is not to like about a potato????)... I think your son is doing great if he likes some veggies!

I recently got asked for potty training advice and had to laugh, given the fact that I have to move several pairs of rinsed out pants and underwear every morning to have a shower. The only advice I could offer was that the enzyme-based cleaners for pet smells do an awesome job of removing the smell of urine from clothes.

[CG]

I give too much advice. I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut. But I'm working on it. I just hate seeing people banging their heads against the wall when I know there's (potentially) a solution.

I think, though, that there's a difference between giving advice from a place where you've had the problem and struggled through it to a decent solution for your family, and giving advice from a place where you think you have it all figured out and you can't understand why these "sub-par" parents don't get their act together.

The latter type of advice is rarely well-received. And humility, if not embraced, is often forced upon us. I'm working on the humility part, and having a second child who isn't as good a sleeper as the first is helping with that a lot.

[nej]

@SarcastiCarrie - I do the same thing you do, but I never thought it was "giving advice" but more like commiserating and then sharing information, like this worked or this was a huge fail for us. The same way I would share that Tar-shay has a sale on everyone's favorite salad dressing or that I loved a certain book.

As far as giving assvice, with the above stated caveat, I usually MMOB unless I'm asked or unless it's someone who so frequently solicits my advice that I just assume it's ok to give without first getting permission. And it goes both ways - I have a friend that dispenses advice like Pez to me because I've asked her enough times, "What would you do?!?"

And I don't mind advice unless it's loaded with judginess or condescension. But if it's a "oh, we've been there and the only thing that worked was putting her in the carrier and vacuuming the whole house till she passed out," I'm usually like "thank the lord for you because that is one thing I hadn't thought of and even if she doesn't fall asleep, at least my floors will be clean!" BTW, it worked. And my floors have never been cleaner!

[Jac]

@Cloud - "Even if it is based on what works for their cats". HA HA HA. My brother just bragged to me that he had his new puppy trained to pee outside in just a few short weeks - waaaaaaay faster than it took us to potty train DS. I can't WAIT until he has kids.

[Jennifer]

I have two kids, and one of my close friends has one that is about six months older than my youngest. Any suggestions I started out making fell on pretty deaf ears, so I just stopped trying to share what I've learned, and decided to let them ask if they were interested.

I am always amused at the advice they are offering *me*, though, along with tidbits of parenting wisdom. Its kind of like two people standing on a beach with their backs to the water, and a huge tsunami towering over them. They have no idea what is about to hit them, but they are very adept at telling me how I ought to swim.

[Helen]

"I wonder how much of the problem is kids just not getting heard unless they're whining. In which case the solution isn't to punish the whining, or to refuse to give in to whining, but to do a better job of listening in the first place."

I think there is something to this. Thanks to the commenter who raised it.

Lots good thoughts on advice-giving, too. I only do so when I feel like I'm on the same page as the other person when it comes to parenting issues, and I try to caveat everything with here's what worked for us, your mileage may vary. Because, what do I know about someone else's kid? I barely know how to care for my own.

That said, I have gotten great tips from other parents and have used them. To wit: a friend's daughter starting staying dry at night by wearing underpants with a pull-up on top. The girl understood that one does not pee in one's underpants, and somehow that clicked on a subconscious, sleep level. Same with my daughter -- she was dry at night within one week wearing a pull-up over her underpants.

Your mileage may vary. :)

[parisienne mais presque]

@Cloud - I thought my kid was the only one who won't eat potatoes! For the record, I don't even consider him a picky eater. He gets plenty of nutrients, he'll eat any kind of fruit you put in front of him (mostly) but anything green is a hard sell. And there are a bunch of things that he just won't go near, I think because of the texture: potatoes in any form, ice cream (?!), pudding, yogurt, camembert.

But he eats Roquefort. And we keep cans of marinated octopus around, because he loves that for lunch. My (geeky) analysis of it all is: parenting isn't an algorithm, it's a heuristic.

Anyone else want to complain about grandparent advice? I know they mean well, but let's face it, EVERYTHING worked better 30 years ago. Especially potty training.

And even when they're not giving advice, they're laughing at you and considering this their great moment of revenge. My dad's response to my current potty training stress: "Hey, with a little luck, you'll soon be training two at the same time!" (I'm seven months pregnant.) Ha. Ha ha.

So, whatever I may or may ont say to people now, I will be quiet when I'm the grandparent. I will. I will. I will. (Maybe I should print this out and tape it into my son's baby book so he has written proof of this promise.)

[hush]

@dregina, the yankee transplanted to the South who is sick of the Southern style of sneaky advice giving (often disguised as either compliments or empathy when it's neither), and who is "looking for a good, Southern-style-manners response" ... Well, here's my assvice (because you asked, of course) depending on whether or not you want to blend in with Southern society, or stand apart from it. Meaning, do you care if these women conclude you were "raised in a barn"? I think based on your question that you do care somewhat. Because if you do care, even a little bit, you'd do well to emulate them. "When in Rome" right?

As in, "Thank you, I really do appreciate your suggestion." "I'm going to have to try that- you're so sweet for sharing." But if you find someday you don't care so much about a future career in local politics, you could claim Yankee Privilege and just act the way you would normally. "Excuse me? What are you trying to say?" Or do a Miss Manners "I'll forgive you for giving unsolicited advice, if you'll forgive me for not taking it." Honestly, I've always thought that sounded incredibly rude actually!

[Beth]

I usually read all the comments first, and I can't today, but I'll throw my input out.

No, I truly NEVER EVER EVER do this. Why? Because it I consider it unwelcome and rude when I'm on the receiving end. Unless I'm asked point blank for advice, I don't give it. Not even couched in "oh, hey maybe . . ." I know when I'm getting that from others, and fuck that.

I'm sure I'm touchy about this because I have a friend who CONSTANTLY does this to me and others, and believe me, she has some of her own shit to worry about before she should be helping the rest of us become better parents. Don't we all?

[Brooke]

I mind my own business. Although I can't pretend I don't also judge, but at least I keep it to myself. I hate parenting advice handed down from friends.

I am amazed that other people have kids who hate potatoes!

[SarcastiCarrie]

@dregina - "Can you suggest a good, Southern-style-manners response to that kind of 'under the radar' behavior shaping that I could use when I need it?"

Well, I don't think I've ever been in the South, but I know Miss Manners used to have you say, "Isn't that interesting," in a way that meant it was not.

Subtle and non-direct is code for shy, introverted, and not terribly confident about her own parenting, so it's not supposed to be passive-aggressive.

[SarcastiCarrie]

Oh, and I do not like potatoes. Just for the record. You are all free to judge me. They are tolerable when frenched and fried though.

[Melba]

@rudyinparis, @hush, and others re: commisseration... I think you're bang on. I know that for me, if I want advice, I ask for it. If I tell my friend/mother/MIL/sister that I have difficult situation X and I've decided to do Y about it, the last thing I want to hear is how I should do Z instead. Even though I clearly said I'm doing Y. Butt the eff out and just tell me that situation X sucks. If I say I don't know what to do about it, THEN I'm opening the door to advice. But nothing drives me more bonkers than unsolicited advice that's given AFTER its clear I already know what I'm going to do.

Now that I've said that though, I KNOW for certain that I am a total hypocrite because I have caught myself doing the exact same thing. I'm bad for doling out unsolicited advice. Gah. Do unto others as you'd have done to you, eh? Well I try. I just suck at it.

@parisienne and @Cloud re: how becoming a parent changes your previously naive and totally unrealistic ideals of parenting. ha! hahaha! I used to be all judgey about my sister letting her kids cosleep with her. "no way any baby of mine is sleeping in my bed." Well we're not full time cosleepers around here but you better believe I do it when necessary. One example of millions.

Also love that your son won't eat potatoes that taste like practically nothing but will gobble up roquefort and marinated octopus!

[Anonthistime]

I struggle with this. For the little things, I tend to mind my own business, but I have a hard time staying quiet about things that are dangerous or life-changing. When my nephew was younger I realized my SIL & BIL weren't buckling him into his car seat properly. They never tightened the straps because they didn't know you could loosen them again, and how would they get him in and out? (College-educated people! With multiple degrees!) I just about had a heart attack seeing him flopping around in his loosely strapped car seat. So I did say something that time.

But another time, my friend's daughter was clearly struggling with some kind of learning disability, and I didn't know what to say. I asked questions and hinted around a bit, but in the end I felt like I couldn't go in and tell someone else how to parent. Her daughter ended up dropping out of school and I always felt bad about it, like I could have helped somehow, but what could I have done? It's tricky.

[Dregina]

@SarcastiCarrie - actually, "Isn't that interesting" is great! I want to -or at least am aware that I have to - learn how to operate in this culture, and so many suggestions I get just don't feel quite like something I could say. But Isn't that interesting is doable. Thanks!

[srb]

I would never tell another parent how to discipline her child. I might offer stories about what worked for me in regards to things like potty training or night weaning, but only if asked directly.

I think suggesting another person's child should go to bed earlier presumes an awful lot about the family situation. I speak as the parent of a preschooler who has behavior issues tied to his lack of sleep. Believe me, if we could get him to sleep earlier or longer or not wake up several times a night we would. If someone wanted to tell us what worked for them to make this happen, I would listen. If someone wants to preach to me that he needs more sleep then I'd like them to come live in my house for 24 hours.

[Mitch]

I was on it too! It's funny because I was put on that and singulair, my son's usual medicine. I noticed nothing, maybe because I live in a state of crabbiness! I am due for a chest x-ray, this time of year is getting a lot of us! But I finally remembered my regimen- oregano, garlic, myrrh, vitamin C, echinnacea and golden seal. My sister, the witch, says it works! Zinc sucking candies help too! Good-luck with the strep disappearing.
www.gaynycdad.com

[Julie]

I lost far too much sleep last night mentally composing an email to some acquaintances. They've been very open on their blog and Facebook about how they're "Ferberizing" their 2.5-year-old son by locking him in a pitch black bedroom for the night. I haven't read Ferber's book, but it's hard to imagine that this is a recommended part of the method. I think what they're doing is abusive and dangerous.

I am further disturbed that people on Facebook "like" the dad's status when he reports on how long his son cries each night. Frankly, I don't see what there is to "like" about a scared little boy trapped in the dark.

Like I said, these are acquaintances. They live across the country from me. I've never met their son. The only reason I started reading their blog was because my daughter is the same age and it's been interesting to see parallels and differences between the two kids and how we're raising them.

I'm not going to say anything to the parents. It's not my place, and I very much doubt they'd listen to me, anyway. I guess I just needed a place to vent.

[Julie]

I should follow up by mentioning that I was tempted to give this couple my two cents since they're putting it all out there on the Internet. Aren't they inviting advice by doing this?