Discussion of NurtureShock, Chapter 4 "Why Kids Lie"

We're talking about NurtureShock by Po Bronson and Ashley Merryman all summer. One chapter every Friday. Jump in whenever you'd like. The first week we talked about Chapter 1 about praise. The second week we talked about Chapter 2 about sleep. Last week we talked about talking about race with your kids. This week we're talking about why kids lie and how we're inadvertently promoting that.

This week's chapter is "Why Kids Lie," and I found it less of an "a-ha!" than any of the previous three chapters and more of an "oh, crap." Here's my super-sketchy list of the stuff they cover:

• Most parents do no better than chance when asked to tell if their kids were lying (from videos of their kids talking about things that were either the truth or lies). These experiments have been done a bunch of times, and parents simply can't tell when their kids are lying, even though we're all convinced we can.
• People think boys lie more than girls do, but they lie at the same rate.
• Kids lie almost instinctively to make themselves look better and feel better, to get praise, and to be the center of attention. Basically, it's the same reasons adults lie without really thinking about it.
• Even if you think your kid doesn't lie, your kid lies.
• Kids hear us telling lies all the time, and think it's ok. They can't tell the difference between "white lies" and other lies. Telling someone you like her new haircut when you don't is the same to a kid as saying you didn't eat the last cookie when you did.
• Kids also can't tell the difference between a lie and a statement that turns out not to be true. If you tell your child she'll see her friend at the playground and then the friend gets sick and doesn't come, that sequence is the same to a child as if you'd deliberately lied.
• We reward kids for telling us what we want to hear. So there's no real benefit to telling the truth. Especially if the truth is going to get them in trouble, and the lie has little chance of being detected.

Essentially, we're all liars, and we're raising liars because we don't understand how they see our interactions, and because we reward them for telling us what we want to hear.

After reading this chapter I've started reexamining the way I phrase things with my kids so that when I'm not sure of an outcome I haven't promised something that won't necessarily happen. I'm also focusing more specifically on not penalizing bad behavior as much as I penalize lying about bad behavior. (A few weeks ago there was an incident in which I meted out a punishment and then a double-long punishment for lying. And then gave the opportunity to work off the punishment for the initial infraction, but the lying punishment had to stand. That was sobering, and I hope it had an effect, but I know I have to police my own behavior as much as anything else.)

Thoughts?

Comments

[Maura]

At least now I know that when my 4yr old says to me, "You're LYING Mommy" about something I was mistaken about, it's not just because he's a little snot.

[paola]

I won't be actually penalising the lying so much as pulling them up more often when I know they are lying. I like the way Bronson stated it, ' I won't be upset with you if you (peeked) and if you tell the truth, I will be really happy' . I have tried this out a couple of times since reading the chapter and have noticed my son has an easier time admitting he lied.

The way I deal with tale telling will be harder to right. I have been telling my kids they mustn't ride or park their bikes on the 'bouncy turf' at the park as it damages it and is dangerous for kids playing on it or running around. My son (5.5) finally gets it, but is now starting to tell other kids ( and their parents) when he sees kids riding their bikes on it. He looks to me to back him up. I want to, but if a parent doens't give a shit if his/her kid rides on the turf, what am I supposed to do about it? I have been explaining to him that some parents don't know the rules, or care for the rules, but when he says to parents and kids in big loud voices they shouldn't be riding on the turf, I cringe and want to tell him (nicely) to mind his business. I know I'm giving him mix messages on all levels. I am at a loss as to what I should be doing here.

[the milliner]

Hmmm...I try very hard not to tell people I like something when I don't (OK, well there are probably a few examples where I tell a white lie, but hopefully these are at a minimum). I usually try to find something else to say that is true so I don't have to lie yet remain kind to the other person.

That being said, I probably tell the same lie to my son every single day - "I'll be with you in a second". Of course 99.9 times what I mean is "I'll be with you in a few minutes." I correct myself when I catch it. But man is it hard.

I agree that this chapter was less of an 'a-ha', and somewhat anticlimactic as I had read about the McGill study previously. It was eye-opening when I first read about it though. Especially knowing that parents weren't much better than chance at detecting lies from their own kids.

DS doesn't have a lot of words yet, so we'll see how this one plays out. For me, seeing what a kid is lying about is really a window into what else is going on (which I think is mentioned in the book). Assuming I can tell at least 50% of the time when my kid is lying, (I think) I'll try to dig a bit deeper and address that issue first.

The only case of lying we are exposed to so far with DS is me asking if he has a poopy diaper, and he shakes his head no. Most of the time he's correct. But I do think some of the time he just doesn't want to stop playing to change his diaper. I usually just say 'I know you don't want to stop doing X to change your diaper, but you'll feel so much better afterwards!'. Not even addressing the lying at this point, and I'm not sure it even needs to be for this.

[caramama]

(First, I'm so upset that I didn't get a chance to comment on last week's post! I was fascinated by the topic of race discussions, but just haven't had the time to go back and read through everything and write out my thoughts. Maybe I'll still go back and comment. At least I'm here today to comment on this!)

A few more bullet points:
-Most kids in our culture start learning to lie between the ages 3 and 4, and their lying gets better and better as they get older, get away with it more and practice it more.
-Parents let most of the lies go, even though we call the kids on other things. If it's really important to us that they don't lie, we need to point it out MUCH more often and starting at a really young age.
-Teaching kids not to "tattle" often goes hand in hand with teaching them to lie.

I found it especially interesting that the story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf and got eaten in the end had no effect on getting kids not to lie, while the story of George Washington confessing to chopping down the cherry tree and getting praised for telling the truth had a positive effect. It really drives home the point that kids will lie to get out of punishments, no matter how bad the punishment, but will fess up if they see a reward/it will make parents happy.

I do wish they had talked a bit about when kids learn the difference between "pretend" and actual lying. My daughter will often say things that aren't true, but then I'll ask if she is just "pretending" and she says yes. I just had to realize she meant she spilled something in her play kitchen, not the real kitchen.

It drives my husband crazy when my 3 yo says things that aren't true and isn't playing pretend. So we are starting now to explain the difference, point out when things are actually lies versus truth, and are going to model being more accurate in what we say. I know inaccuracy (especially from my husband) drives me crazy! Let's hope our strategies work!

@Moxie - I really like the idea of your punishments being especially hard for lying. I'm so worried about finding the balance with punishing lying so we're teaching them to just tell the truth rather than become better liars. Why isn't there an easy answer?

[mo]

The take-aways I took from this chapter were to be really careful about not asking questions in such a way to set the kid up to lie - i.e., knowing the answer but asking them so they are forced to tell me something they did wrong. I'm trying to be better about just stating the fact rather than asking and moving on from there.

Also, after reading the chapter, I've tried to be really cognizant of praising them for telling me the truth (especially if I know it is about something that wouldn't benefit them from telling the truth - if that makes any sense. For example, when I tell them we'll stop the movie when the two Bionicles stop fighting and then I'm cleaning the kitchen and not paying attention and one of the boys tells me as soon as they've reached that part - I make a big deal about thanking them for being honest and sometimes I randomly throw in a reward of letting them watch an extra few minutes since they were so honest about it).

Otherwise, this was hard to read in a way in the sense that I'm sure I'm one of those moms that would say (one of my boys) would never lie to me (the other, probably would try quite frequently). I guess I shouldn't assume that.

The other - random - fact I found fascinating from this chapter was the fact that lying shows an element of inteligence. Kids get better at lying as they become more inteligent.

[sweetcoalminer]

I am still on the hold list for the library for this book, but I guess then that telling them that if they're lying, Santa Claus knows it even if I don't? Because, I'll tell you, that gets the truth out every time.

I had such tremendous stress when I lied as a kid, and my kids do it without flinching. ALL DAY. Because it's a holiday weekend, discussion will probably be light on this, but I'm particularly interested in the perspective of parents of older kids.

I ask them if they've washed their hands before every meal, and they always say, "yes" and then I demand to smell their hands and no one smells like soap. "Did you hit your brother?"

I am still a terrible liar, and I was a practicing lawyer, for goodness sake. How are these kids so smooth?

[Lisa]

Just lost my note, but here is the short form: I lie every day to my daughter to avoid her explosions and protracted tantrums (frontal lobe self-regulating issues). Can kids tell when we lie? Should I stop? Why/why not? She is otherwise fairly "age appropriate" (4.5), but was exposed to cocaine. Yes, I am playing the Crack-Baby Card.

[Sarah]

This one was interesting. My 3 yo DS is becoming very imaginative and exploratory of language and reality. The other day he was saying cows say "neigh" and horses say "moo." Obviously, that's not really a lie, and I responded as if he was making a joke, but I do wonder how to let him explore without cracking down on him for lying. I guess it's the intention behind it.

Also, I've got to get dh to stop "joking" with him. He was joking around with DS saying that DS's cousin (whose house we were on the way to) didn't have any toys to play with. DS ended up crying, and I ended up mad at DH. DH apologized, but still... It did make me wonder at what age can a child understand joking as different from lying.

[maria]

When I first heard about this information I began telling my daughter that it makes me really happy when she tells the truth and that did seem to work, for a while anyway. Also, trying not to set her up to lie (i.e. did you eat the last cookie?). I have been losing sight of this stuff lately though, so I'm really glad we're talking about this to remind me.

She is big on accusing me of lying when I'm wrong, which I try to remember is developmentally appropriate. I am sure that I do lie to her about what I consider to be minor things and I feel awful about it. But sometimes expediency wins. And I try not to.

We also have the difficulty of distinguishing between pretending and lying. One thing I started doing is listening to her fantastical stories and then asking her whether it's a real life story or a story out of her imagination. This technique works a lot of the time, and because she has a pathological liar (literally) for a father I look for whatever opportunities I can find to help her learn to tell the difference between a lie and the truth.

I'm interested in reading this discussion as it progresses!

[pennifer]

I scored a copy of this book today at my local used bookstore, so I'm excited to join in the discussion more completely.

Our son is just over 2.5 and he has recently begun testing out a very particular kind of lying - telling me "Papa hit me." I know this isn't true (b/c I was there or very close by and b/c he's not upset) and he's doing it in such a way that indicates he's testing the waters (interesting eye contact, etc.) for my response. He does it when my hubby does something he doesn't like, and he wants me to change the outcome. It was pretty shocking the first time it happened, but now I'm kind of ready for it. Let's hope this particular little phase ends quickly, b/c it's icky.

I too am interested in hearing more from parents of older kids, b/c our son is just now getting verbal and cognitively skilled enough to practice lying.

[Lisa]

With our 4.5 y.o the only thing I'm sure she's lying about is using soap. I'm guessing there are other lies. I do the hand smell test, too, which amuses me a little and makes me squeamish, too. My husband's parents thought he would be honest and "good" and he was, right thru highschool and beyond. My parents, expected us to be "bad", always restricting and checking up, and we WERE very naughty, right thru highschool, and beyond.
I think I should ask her to wash her hands, and then not ask if she has when she comes out of the bathroom with a towel. I will explain again about germs, and how if she's sick, she can't swim, and then its up to her.

[LikesLies]

I think I took something very different out of this chapter than most people here. I saw it as more proof that lying is just part of being human. Not that big lies or constant lies are acceptable, but that it is important for my kids to lie sometimes so that they can tell when others are pulling some b.s. on them.

My husband and I both strive to be honest ALL THE TIME, and it has a good side. We get to feel good about ourselves and like we are setting a good example etc. On the other hand, it's tiring, and I suspect we tell a lot of white lies without really even thinking about it.

I am very easily duped by liars or just people who are willing to be bullies and not listen to any point of view other than their own. I think all my practicing honesty has left me a little bit inept when dealing with people who aren't so hung up. This chapter gave me permission to lower my standard a little bit for my kids. After all, they are going into a world where most of the people they interact with are going to be lying some of the time. Maybe a certain level is acceptable even for honest people?

[Elaine]

I am still on the waiting list for this book at the library. But reading the comments, I'm wondering if parents with better listening skills either see less lying or are better able to catch it. NOT that the posters here are poor listeners - but in my experience most people do not have well developed listening skills.

I wonder if anyone with older children that has read "How to Talk So your Kids Will Listen and Listen So Your Kids Will Talk" would have an opinion about this. Maybe creating a safer space for kids to communicate would make a difference about the bigger lies parents are trying to avoid.

And for anyone that is interested, there is a great book by Barbara and Allan Pease on body language that I found enlightening in learning to read people http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Book-Body-Language/dp/0553804723/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278176902&sr=8-1

[Schwa de Vivre]

I'm with @LikesLies. Of course, we really haven't had to deal with this with DS (2.5yo) yet. He lies, but it's all imaginative or joking.

[ARC]

This chapter gave me a lot of food for thought even though BabyT is only 9 months old.

From my own experience, it was great to be thought of as "the kid who never lies" because then I could get away with a lot of (minor) things, esp once I got to high school. Heh.

So I think I'll be more careful about not "labeling" my daughter. I know my parents meant well and were trying to praise me, but it sort of reminds me of chapter one and telling kids they're "smart" all the time vs. praising effort or a specific outcome.

WRT joking, it probably depends on the kid, but when I was 5 my dad told me (joking, of course) that I'd have to sleep in the basement if I brought home anything less than all A's on my first report card. (Hooray for academic pressure starting early in Asian-American families. But I digress.)

Well, my literal 5-yo mind took that as truth, not as a joke, so I told my teacher that so that she'd "know" I had to get As. Well, of course, that alarmed her, she called my parents, and of course, they had to explain my dad was just joking. So it might be a while before your kids can tell the difference :)

[Kate]

@Sarah, re: joking, I think it depends on the kid.

My 4 yo can totally read when we're joking but the 6 yo has a hard time. It's very over the top, because they're kids..."What's for dinner?" "Oh, I don't know, maybe [something nobody in the family likes, things that are never in the house, like olives and sardines]!" The 4 yo cracks up laughing, and the 6 yo starts to cry (real tears), whining "But what will I eat?"

Not sure if it's willful refusal to understand? Whatever, it's kind of a drag--it's going to be a while until sarcasm can be the lingua franca around here.

[hush]

What @mo said - seriously mo's comment hit on everything I thought of when I read the chapter, especially the point about lying as a sign of high intelligence.

I'm also with @LikesLies's take on lying behavior as just a part of being human. Like masturbation, everybody does it (or should) and it is natural.

I want my kids to be able to know how to tell a convincing lie, that is, when they are old enough for this to be advantageous. If you really think about it, lying is an essential life survival skill. You never know what world events might come to pass in our children's lifetimes where they might desperately need to be able to pull off a lie in order to save someone, i.e. "Are you hiding any X people in your home?"...

[paola]

I remember on an old past that someone said that kids don't get sarcasm until around 8 years old. I agree with @Kate that they understand joking much much earlier, even my 3.5 year old 'seems' to understand joking as she often tells me she is just joking, but to what extent. IMO we can't not joke or not use sarcasm simply because they are not at the age to understand it. They have to be exposed to it early so they can eventually understand it. Sometimes it might seems cruel (eg. Such and Such doesn't have any toys at his house for you to play with) but it will teach them something long term.

[paola]

The post on 'sarcasm or something' linked to this article:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070803141811.htm

[millay]

Yes, Likeslies, that's what i'm understanding from it too. my son is growing up in a country that isn't mine and i feel like parents are much less shocked by kids lying. at school, etc. i think we learn that sometimes lying helps us and the message to never lie is contradictory. makes me think of how i lied as a teenager, to create an independent safe space for myself. lying is a way to claim some power, in a weird way. i think the intention should always be the focus and the more we show our kids they can trust us, the more likely they are to tell the truth, or to value truth telling.

[mamma_rose]

Interesting discussion going on here - haven't read the book but i think i can contribute just based on what everyone else has said.
First off, i think its rather unfortunate that some people think that lying is a natural human condition and should be encouraged/not punished. Don't really understand where you're coming from with that, especially seeing as the legal system puts a big emphasis on "telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth...etc". I do agree that lying is something that isn't necessarily taught, per se, but does that meant that it's natural? Or say rather, learned behaviour?
I know that, for myself, i was the "golden child" of our family of three. Oldest child who could do no wrong etc etc definitely took advantage of that a few times...especially with my sister (read: pathological liar) when i didn't want to own up to something i'd done, she would almost always get in trouble just because my parents expected her to lie about it. A bit sad because even now (at 20) she is extraodinarily self-focused, moody, lies all the time and is the basic "eye of the storm" that the rest of my family still revolves around (i moved out at 20, got married and now have a child..thank goodness! lol).
I can't really remember if I ever picked up on my parent's lying habits or not - I know that they both are quite studious in their efforts not to lie (although, that being said, a memory of mum telling "white lies so that i don't hurt such-and-such's feelings" has just popped into my head.
I'm looking forward to reading more comments on this topic - gotta prepare myself for toddler-hood and beyond! :D

[LikesLies]

Mamma_Rose, it's not that I think lying should be encouraged, but that it shouldn't necessarily be punished and that I shouldn't be trying to determine whether or not my kid is lying all the time. Excessive lying is a problem, but it's important for them to know how to lie and how to spot a lie because it's part of life just like honesty generally being the best policy is part of life.

I think it's part of the being human because it exists in every culture and I've seen studies of monkeys showing that they lie too (to what extent they are able. Hiding possessions, sneaking around and sleeping with the dominate male's mate behind his back etc.) I think it's just part of being a higher primate because it's so pervasive.

That said, there are people (like your sister) who just lie too much and it is a problem for them and everyone around them. That's different than lying enough to learn how to recognize a lie and how to deal with it when you hear one. Also different from white lies in my mind.

[Shandra]

Yup, I'm all for lying. "I'm thrilled to take leadership on this important project." :-)

I haven't read the chapter but I do consider lying an important part of childhood. We try not to put my son in the position of having to lie right now though.

[Betsy]

@mamma_rose - I think you're essentially saying 'honesty is the best policy.' One of the strengths of this book is how it takes certain so-called 'truths' we have all heard (like the one you've espoused), and uses research to turn that truth on its head. Although I appreciate your honesty in admitting that you didn't read, we all really ought to read the chapters before we start assuming things and making comments that might be construed as judgmental towards other people's no less valid parenting choices. I'm not trying to flame you, I'm merely saying I perceived an "I know better than thou" tone in your comment, which you probably did not even intend!

By the way, not everyone thinks the "legal system" can or should be their moral compass. I personally feel the American legal system is at best a total, racist joke... but I digress as that's not the topic at hand.

Whoever mentioned lying as a survival tool reminded me of the harrowing opening scene in "Inglorious Basterds" where the farmer's inability to lie convincingly hurt the family he had been hiding from the bad guys. So yeah, I agree with LikesLies that lies definitely have their place.

[mamma_rose]

i'm a bit confused (obviously having the book is more essential than i originally thought!!) why isn't honesty the best policy?
sorry if i offended anyone - didn't mean to sound like a know-it-all snob ;) i'm just trying to work out all this parenting stuff now rather than work it out 20 years after i need it and have a "doh!" moment!
do they sell this book in australia? does anyone know?

[Irene]

I thought part of the point of this chapter was that lying is a necessary social skill, whether we're comfortable with that fact or not - and learning when it's ok or even beneficial to fudge the truth and when it's a Bad Thing is part of growing up and developing a moral sense of one's own.

[Agnes]

I don't know how to phrase this exactly, but sometimes 'lying', especially in adults, isn't so much untruth as responding to a deeper meaning. So "Your new haircut looks great!" responds to the person's underlying question "Am I ok? Am I ugly?" They aren't really asking for a point-by-point critique of their hairstyle. Teaching kids to respond to the deeper questions is a life skill, though a tricky and fairly cognitively advanced one.

[meera]

ditto on the comments about learning the difference between pretending and lying, on purpose vs accident etc. My 3.5 year old is now fasicnated by the idea of 'tricking' but he doesnt quite get it yet. Sometimes, the very same thing said will be met with a big ha-ha - its a joke - and then a few minutes later he is all scared and upset and its not pretend or joking any more.

I think what i got from this chapter is that some lying is OK and part and parcel of growing up. Over-the-top reactions to lying are not that effective, since all your kid is doing is learning how to say the right thing that would get the correct reaction out of you. And to be watchful of my reactions to what my kid says.

[SarcastiCarrie]

Broken Childhood: FTW!

I never (rarely) promise my kids anything. I'm all about the conditional "This might be something that happens later if the stars align and your friend can come and blah blah blah." I don't want to disappoint them when something goes wrong or if we get sick and can't go somewhere or if someone else is naughty and doesn't show up to the play date. I also don't want to be accused of lying to my kids (by them) because who needs that?

[new balance]

In our efforts to adjust differences of opinion we should be free from intolerance of passion, and our judgements should be unmoved by alluring phrases and unvexed by selfidh interests.

[Aaron]

The thing that rang a bell for me was not setting up your child to lie. I find we do this often even though I know I've read in another parenting book not to do this. "E, did you dump your milk on the floor?" Clearly E dumped her milk on the floor as she and I are the only two in the house capable of doing it. Yet, at 3 she says, "no". Firstly I shouldn't have phrased it that way, but because I did I know have to deal with the lie. But how do I do that? "E, you know it's not right to lie" k, and then what?

[Cheap Kids Clothes]

Nice tricks for parents for either their kids laying saying the truth or lies....