Discussion of "NurtureShock" by Po Bronson and Ashley Merryman, Chapter 1

Today's the day we discuss NurtureShock by Po Bronson and Ashley Merryman. To be honest, I've fallen out of the habit of reading parenting books over the past few years because they all seem to be saying the same thing (or opposite things in an alarmist tone). So it took some significant arm-twisting from Mrs. Haley to get me to read NurtureShock (ok, she lent me her copy), but I'm very glad I did.

It's a very different kind of book about parenting. The authors decided to take received wisdom on a number of different parenting topics, and then see if there had been any research on those topics, and whether that research bore out what the received wisdom said. I guess we really shouldn't be surprised that the research shows that quite often we're doing the exact opposite of what we should be doing to get the end results we want.

I've been having lots of trouble figuring out which 2 or 3 points from the book I wanted to discuss, and then it hit me: Why not talk about a different chapter every Friday for the rest of the summer? There are 10 chapters, on such wildly different and meaty topics, that there's no way we could hit everything we really want to in one or two posts.

So today let's talk about Chapter 1: "The Inverse Power of Praise."

For those of us who have been following some of the recent research on over-praising kids, this chapter isn't a surprise. Essentially, giving your kids too much praise actually lowers their self-esteem and reduces their motivation.

Bronson and Merryman looked at research by Carol Dweck showing that kids who were praised for intelligence ended up giving up in the face of challenge, while kids who were praised for effort were more persistent when challenged. Which makes total sense.

When they were told they were smart, that made them self-conscious and afraid of proving that they weren't smart, so they wouldn't try things they weren't good at. And if something was difficult, they thought it was proof that they weren't smart so they gave up instead of trying harder.

It turns out that praising kids for effort encourages them to be persistent and keep trying. Also, making them wait for rewards, and not praising every little thing they do (effort or not) also teaches them patience. And praise about specific things also helps them focus their efforts.

This all makes so much sense, doesn't it? But then I had to back up and realize how very often I praised my kids for being smart. Not for being persistent, or looking for alternate solutions, or putting in effort.

Even when that's what I mean.

I'm still saying "You're so smart" or "You're such a clever kid." Why?

Toward the end of the chapter, Bronson talks about his own experience with his son, and how he's been working on switching from the "You're so smart" praise to the process/effort-based praise. He pinpointed that the reason it was so hard for him to be specific was that by saying "You're so smart" he was praising something innate within his child, which was his way of showing unconditional love.

Wow. Yeah. Exactly. I think my kids poop rainbows. They're amazing because of who they are, not what they do, and that's what I want them to know every minute of every day, including when they're 35 and life is even more confusing than it is now. I want them to know that the molecules in their bodies make them the precious people they are, and that they are loved more than they'll ever understand.

But it turns out that love really isn't enough, all by itself. We have to teach them how to survive and thrive in the world, and persistence and effort are necessary to be fulfilled, productive human beings. And we have to trust kids enough to let them figure out who they are, instead of our telling them they're smart all the time!

One of the big points of this chapter was the idea that the brain grows the more you use it. So kids who work harder at things get smarter. And maybe parents who work harder at praising their kids the better way get smarter, too. I'm going to start testing that theory now.

What stuck out for you most in this chapter?

Next Friday: chapter 2: The Lost Hour, about the effects of sleep deprivation on all of us, but especially kids. This chapter kicked me right straight in the teeth.

Comments

[chelsitatx]

I've been an avid reader of this blog since I had my son 15 months ago, but this is my first comment. I'm compelled to make it because this book really resonated with me. Like you, Moxie, I do not read parenting books. My child is still arguably a baby, but rather than worry if he's keeping up with the rest, I use my baby book more as a reference. I wouldn't call this book a parenting book, though. It's not telling you how to parent, per se, and does not prescribe to any sort of parenting philosophy. Rather, it takes "truths" that we as a society (not even just parents but educators, caregivers, anyone who has contact with children) have constructed, and reveals them for the much more complicated issues that they are.

Enough of the rehash. As for the issue of praise, I feel lucky to have read this while my son is still so young. I've already tried to incorporate the ideas set forth in this chapter and be specific about the praise that I give him. Why? Because as I was reading this chapter it dawned on me that perhaps this was why I feel so...incompetent, and not-smart-enough as an adult. My parents were, and still are, wonderful...loving and supportive and selfless. My sister and I always heard how much they loved us, no matter what, how smart we were, how gifted, and on and on. Today? I'm balking at starting an MA program because I'm not sure if I can do it. What if I'm not smart enough?

Obviously this chapter caused me to reflect more on my experience with praise as a child. I'm curious if others had similar revelations?

[Elaine]

This does makes sense. This also goes along with the theory of genius I remember reading a few years back. Was it a study? Maybe someone else will remember. It studied different people considered geniuses in their fields ( I actually think Bill Gates was among them. And the Beatles.) The theory was that genius level achievements was more a result of time spent at a task than pure talent. If I remember correctly, talent gets the ball rolling, but it takes 10,000 hours doing a task to get to the level the world would consider someone a genius in that area. The writer of the article talked about all the time the Beatles spent playing in Germany before they hit it big - and it all added up to roughly 10,000 hours.

I bet that amount of time and effort does indeed change the brain in a big way.

My MIL was a manic cheerleader for her kids. To this day I think if DH called her to say he took a successful dump she would very nearly pop with delight. The result is that DH needs lots and lots and lots of reinforcement. It is one of those annoying things I just have to put up in my life with him. But this got me thinking about setting a different pattern with our son. Not that I'll ever stop MIL from going out of control everytime her grandson does any little thing, but hopefully I we can minimize it if we're mindful about reinforcing effort.

I'm looking forward to reading the comments today.

[Julie]

I completely agreed with this chapter. I was always told that I was smart and that was fine as long as I was in a school that wasn't very challenging. We switched districts when I was a sophomore, to one that had AP everything and really focused on academic achievement and I fell apart. School was no longer easy for me so I didn't want to even try. Unfortunately, this lasted well into college and I still struggle with it at times. I have been focusing on specific praise with DS (3) for the past year but now I realize that DH needs to be on board, also.

[Moxie]

Elaine, it was in Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers, and I use that idea, that doing something for 10,000 hours gives you mastery, every day at work. (I work for an educational video game company, and by the age of 21, the average kid has spent 10,000 hours playing video games.)

Chelsitatx, yes. I am definitely a "If I can't do it well I won't do it" person. And I think back about how little the generic praise meant to me, but how addicted you get to it, even when you don't value it.

[michaela]

Ok, so I agree w/ the basic premise here but need some help w/ examples of specific praise. My daughter is 4 and looks for a lot of feedback or reaction to her artwork and her "writing" - rows of letters that don't spell anything in particular. I'm usually stumped in those cases, though I have a much easier time coming up w/ something to say about physical effort - "wow, you kept trying to hop up on the swing, and then you DID it! you worked hard!"

[Elaine]

Thanks, Moxie. It may even have been this site that put the Outliers stuff on my radar to begin with.

And I agree with how little generic praise can mean to a kid. I remember saying to my mom that she had to say that stuff because I was her daughter. But my sister (15 years older than me) would get very specific about her praise. And it always seemed to mean more to me.

[Clare]

@Michaela, I struggle with that with my Kindergartner. He's a naturally smart kid, but gets frustrated quickly if things don't come easily for him. So, when he asks me about his art, I try to pretend I'm an art critic (corny, I know). I'll say something like, I like how you used color to show how you are feeling, or, That rocket is really big. Where is it taking the people inside it? I think it shows that I'm actually looking at the picture and thinking about it rather than just saying, good job. nice picture. Of course, I don't have the patience for doing that for every. single. piece he makes, but oh well.

Penmanship is harder, but I think you can treat it similarly to a gross motor skill. As in: you are really trying hard to write your letters well. You keep working at it, and look how neat they are/how much you've improved.

[Lucy]

I love the idea of a discuss a chapter at a time.

My parents weren't big praisers, but I felt (and still feel) their love and support. My husband has realized that the generalized praise from his narcissistic mother was meaningless and, like Elaine, has left him unable to try new things easily.

Michaela, I try to describe what I see on artwork, rather than using any kind of evaluative wording. "I see that you used lots of red. And that you stuck beans on here." or "Tell me about this circle here." I read this somewhere. Having said that, my 4.5 rarely, rarely is interested in artwork at home. Thankfully he seems to be exposed to plenty at childcare 2 times a week.

The biggest praise/observation that we are using at the moment is about problem solving. "Wow. I saw that you were having a problem with reaching the toy, so you got the step stool to help you reach, and so you solved your problem." And then he 'solved the problem' of how to unlock the front door by himself!! I think this kind of desciption/observation is discussed in "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk."

[Star]

This is one of the major things that reading the book has changed about my parenting. Now I try to emphasize more that hard work is more important than innate talent. It's something I wish someone had told me as a child. I believed you were either good at something or bad at it, and there was no way to change those things. Little did I know! I've gotten better at things I was bad at as a child and worse at things that came naturally! :) And I love the idea that intelligence is not fixed. We are always growing more and less intelligent. It makes so much sense to me!

[Sharon]

I really like the idea of a chapter a week!
I've not read the book, but I have read some of the original research covered. I definitely try to praise my children for effort and specific outcomes and avoid as much as possible "you're so smart" (I even cringe when grandparents say it to them). I've also read there are huge cultural differences here -- Americans think intelligence is fixed, so we praise intelligence. Japanese think intelligence is based on effort, so they praise effort.

[Sue]

I haven't read the book, but now that this Moxie series is starting, I might. I'm a rookie parent (my son is only 4), and I'm all for honesty - I try to be honest with praise - not puff it up, not dole it out with every activity, and really mean it when I say it. And yes, I too think that my kid poops rainbows, but I don't think he's the most intelligent 4 year old around. I want him to be confident and comfortable, even if he grows up to be "average."

[michaela]

@Lucy, I have to say that I'm jealous re: little interest in artwork at home - we have SCORES of scribbled-on papers spread thru the house, all of which she claims "are very special to me" (b/c she's figured out part of my criteria for weeding things out, the little stinker...). I'm looking forward to preschool ending for the summer just so we get a break from the ceaseless stream of paper. I hear you on the problem-solving language, too...

@Clare, I've GOT to remember to use description and questions with art. There is just so damn much of it.

[chelsitatx]

@Michaela- An idea for the writing, anyway: circle one or two letters that are especially well done and tell her that you can tell she worked really hard on those. The idea is that she starts to recognize which letters she is forming correctly and aim to do that every time. Did I get this from the same book? I think so...

[Susan]

I'm hoping that since I learned about this concept while my child is small (13 months) I'll have an easier time controlling my impulse to constantly tell him how smart he is.

I've tried to put it into action, and sometimes it is a bit strange to say things like "that's excellent block stacking, son," but I do it! I imagine if he was older changing the way I praise him would be much more challenging.

I shared the insights of chapter 1 with my husband, and he told me "well, of course, that's kind of obvious, right?" So, I thought he'd be on board with the specific praise. But, I notice that he tells our son he's smart at least once a day. It's almost involunary, I think.

[Molly]

This chapter really resonated with me because it describes my experiences as a child perfectly. I was a "gifted" child, in all the advanced classes, accustomed to everything I touched turning into academic gold, but I would give up as soon as I encountered a task that required me to try harder than usual. I was (and still am) terrified of failure. It extended through college, where I got a degree in Liberal Studies because it meant taking a lot of very shallow courses in a lot of different subjects, none of which required me to gain a particularly deep understanding or expend much effort to get my A's.

Reading this chapter came immediately after I'd come to basically the same conclusions on my own-- I'm 29, watching a lot of my "non-gifted" friends from school achieve amazing things professionally (doctors, lawyers, teachers, Peace Corps volunteers, I seriously have amazing friends) while I languish here with a degree that won't even get me a job. It took me several years of bewilderment to realize that it's not how "smart" you are, but how much effort you put in that determines your success in almost every arena.

It seems that despite the objective fact of higher-than-average intelligence, I'm fighting a confidence deficit that has left me at a distinct disadvantage. It kind of makes me feel like an idiot to have taken so long to understand how things work.

I'm trying with my 19-month-old to praise her effort rather than her innate intelligence, but it's hard when "You're so smart!" is always on the tip of your tongue. I have to keep reminding myself that my actions are what will really tell her she's loved unconditionally; my words need to be more specific and direct.

[Molly]

I want to add that I really appreciate everyone's examples of the specific praise they're giving their kids. It's much harder to do than it seems, and ideas from other people help a lot!

[Julie]

I haven't read this book (yet) but this backs up all the educational research I've read and present to parents of my students every year - and also what I try to hammer into my students every year. You're not born smart, you get smart. And anyone can get "smart" if they are persistent, they don't give up, and put effort into everything they do. I have so many students who think the first one done means they are the smartest in the class. Because why wouldn't they be? First one done! Must be the smartest! Which is just so, so not true.

There was a study done a while ago that I heard about (will ask around to my teacher friends and try to find the link) about American students and students from Singapore who were presented with a math problem. They did not know that in reality, this math problem could not be solved. It was impossible. The American students gave up after 10 minutes. The Singapore students persisted for over an hour, and still refused to believe that there was no solution even when they were told there was no solution.

It's so hard not to praise my own children with "you're so smart!" because of course, I think they are. Sometimes I will catch myself and say, "What a smart idea! I can tell you really put some thought and time into it." Sort of a nice compromise for those who find the word "smart" falling out of their mouths daily.

[sueinithaca]

In general, I lurved this book. My husband is reading it right now and it's rubbing him the wrong way - mostly the "We bet you've never thought of this before!" tone. I think this is because he's done a lot of research on educational pedagogy (we both have, actually, but it's part of his job) and he feels intellectually insulted by it. I did not have this response to the tone, though.

The praise chapter was the chapter which I enjoyed least in the book. Probably because a lot of it involves techniques that I tended to use automatically (praise for work not "smartness") and because I've read the same advice in books with a very judgmental tone - I think it was the Out-of-Sync Child which picks on parental praise techniques as the "reason" some children are volatile and easily frustrated. Having read the same information in a different (worse) format during a difficult parenting time has predisposed me to react negatively/indifferently to the praise chapter. I may also be a bit of a navel gazer.

I do, however, strongly agree with the premise of the chapter, and I find it works well. My oldest is a girl, and so I've always found myself looking to find unconventional ways to praise her so that she isn't getting the standard "pretty and smart" combo. We do a lot of praising for persistance, patience, and mindfulness, and how the combination of those traits ends in positive results. We also focus a lot on the journey and on the long view (which can be difficult for a 30ish person, much less a 5 year old) and on the idea of gradual improvement. Athletics is probably our main target for that type of praise at the moment. L likes to run, and frequently gets praised for endurance rather than speed, since she has more personal control over how long she sticks it out vs how fast she can go at this point in her life. She still has occasional meltdowns at races, though, despite the fact that they're "everybody gets a medal" style. Nonetheless, she's gearing up for her 2nd 5k this month, which is a somewhat unusual level of commitment for a kindergartener.

One thing I loved about this book was the explication of research studies and results. We live in Ithaca and frequently participated in Cornell's child psychology testing when the kids were infants/toddlers. They never tell you what they're doing - it was awesome to be able to read about it and say "So THAT was the point!"

[Kate]

This chapter is the one I'm having the hardest time implementing. Generic praise flows naturally for me; specific praise for effort is harder.

OTOH, I just reminded DS how much trouble he had building Legos at first, when he came to show me his latest creation. His delighted smile is proof positive how much it meant to him to hear it.

[momgawaga]

I loved this book, and the first chapter definitely resonated with me for many of the same reasons others have mentioned, esp related to intelligence. (I really have to work through "looking stupid" so that I can learn the things I need to understand issues.) It's definitely hard not to tell my child how wonderful she is, and so I just try to balance it with acknowledging efforts as well, particularly when she isn't successful. I also tell her that not everything is a competition - there can be more than one smart/beautiful/strong/etc girl. I think that frustration tolerance is absolutely the most important thing I can foster in my child, and to me, these issues are intertwined. IMHO, if one you believes that everything is a competition, the idea that one is perpetually "losing," rather than just learning, is far more difficult to tolerate; the more reactive I am, the less power I have.

[the milliner]

Love the idea of doing a chapter every friday. I should be able to keep up ;).

Like Moxie pointed out, this chapter wasn't a surprise, but it's good to re-read about the concepts and think through how I feel about everything and how I apply it.

Since DS was born, basically, I've been working on giving specific praise instead of general praise. Mostly, I can get it right. But I do fall into the 'good job' trap frequently. Still working on that.

The area I find the hardest right now regarding praise is with artwork. I'm a creative person. And a good portion of my job is art direction. I'm sooooo hard wired to give my opinion on something. It's really hard not to comment when I like something or think it's interesting. Granted, I almost always follow up with why & specifics.

Actually, as I type this I realise that I always ask the other person (the creator or someone looking for an opinion) what they think first as I don't want to influence their own answer. And also, it brings about interesting discussions when people have different perspectives. I guess, in part, I don't do this with my son because he doesn't have many words yet.

I think that part of self confidence building is learning to value your own opinion, and regard it as legitimate, even when others disagree or have other opinions. If you work in a creative field, this is so important. It's so easy as a creative person to have a fragile ego surrounding their own art/creations. But I think hearing other opinions and being able to stick to your vision is a valuable thing.

Anyhow, all this to say, I find this area for praise is the hardest area for me. I get why it's a good idea just to ask them questions about their work and not give your own stamp or opinion on it. But I'm thinking that I may split the difference on this one and sometimes just ask questions and other times offer an opinion or even praise. Well see how it goes once I'm actually dealing with this (i.e. DS is more verbal). I may totally change my mind.

Regarding 'you're so smart' - I got that a lot as a kid and the outcome was exactly as explained in the book. I find it really hard to start something if I don't think I can do it perfectly. And not so good with failure. Getting slowly better on that. But it's an uphill battle.

I pretty much never say 'you're so smart' to anyone, my kid included. It feels like just such an empty compliment. It doesn't feel right saying it to me.

I think the best take away for me from this chapter is to focus on praising effort. I don't do this nearly enough. And I think it's so key.

[mo]

My boys are 5 yrs old and unfortunately by the time I read this book, I already did so much praising (mostly general) that they know crave/look for praise from me all the time. I'm not sure how to unwind that monster at this point. Especially one of my boys, if I praise his brother (and now I'm trying to be more specific like wow, look at that great picture with all the color on it), his twin will say something to me about how he's doing something, with it pretty obvious to me that he's looking to me to praise what he's doing too.

I think the part about generally saying you're so smart is really a hard habit to break - even after reading this book and knowing I shouldn't be doing it. I think I keep saying it because I want my kids to believe they are smart and I think deep down I want to think my kids are (or are going to be smart once they get a little older!) smart. It is almost like saying it is willing it to happen. Hopefully this discussion puts it back in the front of my brain so I can keep the focus on not doing this. You really have to consciously not say it all the time.

[tk_zk]

It's been a while since I read this article and my brain is like a sieve these days (thanks to new ds, 6 weeks) but I'm curious whether part of the way to deal with this issue is to encourage kids to push themselves no matter what their level. For example, "Those are great circles, why don't you try drawing a square?" (My dd is two, so this is where I'm at right now.)

I also think it's perfectly okay to just celebrate accomplishments without having it be about the kids themselves. E.g. when my daughter goes down a slide (or in the future, finishes a homework assignment or something), there's nothing wrong with a "Yay!" or a "Wow!" right? Does that count as praise if you just celebrate the moment?

Thanks Moxie for providing this forum. What a cool group of people to have a book group with!

[Anna]

So excited you made the format one chapter per week. I haven't read it yet because it's waiting for me to pick up off the hold shelf at my library. I just haven't made it there. I hope I'll catch up and join in next week.

[cileag]

I just finished Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn, so the de-emphasis on praising wasn't new to me, but I agree with the comments above that the research examples Nurtureshock gave really resonated with me. Looking forward for the rest of the discussions!

[MemeGRL]

Awesome. Thank you for stretching this out for the summer. I haven't gotten my copy yet (a friend is gifting it to me and I hate to be a nudge) but can't wait to read it!

[Elle]

One minor point in response to some posters' examples-- my understanding is that true description doesn't include "evaluative" words like excellent, great, or "Nice job doing X." I find myself echoing her actions out loud a lot e.g., "you're putting the dress on that doll," "you're making red circles," "you stacked the blocks so high," etc. and really trying not to verbalize my point of view per se. It's hard! But has become easier with practice.

Yet for behaviors that really matter to me/I want to encourage, I do say things like "I like how you said 'please'" or "That was nice of you to let her have a turn." And I'm definitely urging my husband to stop saying "Good girl!" and be more specific.

The other day my daughter told the mom of a younger child, "He hasn't had as much practice as me, doing this" (running fast down a steep hill). His mom is a developmental psychologist and said to me "I like the attribution she made!" i.e. attributing the younger child's slow speed to lack of practice, not lack of ability. So I guess some of what we're doing is sinking in!

[hush]

@Elle - Such a great comment! Yes! A true DESCRIPTION doesn't EVALUATE. Describing is merely saying what you see or feel, minus the value judgments.

For example, "The way you combined the blue and the pink paint colors is really cool to look at." (NOT: "You're the artist in the family!")

"You put those blocks away so thoughtfully. I see all the square ones are together. They look super organized in the bin." (NOT: "Good boy!")

"You discovered that when you square a binomial you always get a trinomial." (NOT: "You're so smart at math!")

I'm surprised the authors of Nurture Shock didn't give any credit to Haim Ginott. These concepts are straight out of the work of Dr. Haim Ginott from the 1950s, and his students Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish (authors of the "How to Talk" series and "Liberated Parents, Liberated Children") who have written extensively that when parents use "global praise" or "global criticism" they're asking for trouble. It is too confining & limiting for the child.

That being said, I truly enjoyed the book. Even if it warned in the chapter heading I would "ruin" my child if I didn't do what Dweck said. ("RUIN"?? Seriously?)... Anyway, it's like the "Freakonomics" & "Blink"/"Tipping Point" of parenting books - one that is readable and stays with you. Probably the only parenting book that DH would ever read. ;)

One more interesting thing about this chapter - in the notes there is a paragraph on "Brightest Girls Collapse After Failure Round" suggesting some gender differences in how boys respond to the phrase "you're smart." I wish someone would continue that research.

[hilahil]

thanks for doing this, moxie. the book gave me a lot of food for thought too.

everyone has good ideas about specific encouragement and validating the effort and persistence - it's been great reading some specific examples. i've been working really hard on this with our 3 year old daughter and it is getting easier, now that i'm aware of it. i've found being specific also keeps me engaged a little more deeply, because i want to avoid the easy "good girl" or "you're so smart!" response and reflect back to her a comment about what's really going on or offer a detail about what she's been doing.

one thing i've done lately when she's done a chore or accomplished a difficult task is to give her a high five. i'd love some thoughts on the high five! about half the time i won't say anything, or even give that wide-eyed big smiley face - just look her in the eye and hold up my hand.

looking forward to the race chapter!

[Shelby]

i haven't read the book yet, I have it on my kindle after this post. I'm guilty of general praise, "you are so smart", but maybe I'll change after reading the chapter and science. What I have noticed though with my 2.5 year old son is that praise is more effective than giving him a present for doing something or physical rewards. He's more likely to say, "I want more" of the present than to get the link between the activity and the reward. If I praise, then he seems to get that it makes mommy happy and I get praised if i...

I've seen research lately verifying this, that praise is more effective positive reinforcement than physical rewards.

It may have to do with his age and maturity level, I think I've seen somewhere that it takes until 3 or 4 to get the logic of if/then statements. ug, really? ;)

[maria]

I'm going to be – not the voice of dissent, maybe, but of questioning at least. I see how generic praise, particularly if it's hollow or automatic can be damaging, and like so many of the [smart, insightful, self-aware] Moxie commenters, I have a hard time sticking with anything that is hard, and dreaded being 'found out' in school for not being as smart as everyone said.

However, I think there's room for moderation within this praise continuum, and room for both things. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with my child knowing I love her *no matter what* – success, failure, effort, no effort, etc, and that she will always be beautiful and always be a genius in my eyes. There's a baseline of 'I love you because you're YOU' that transcends the cloying quality of Everybody's Special and you're so smart and pretty because you're My Kid

That said, I do try to ALSO use specific praise so that my daughter knows I'm paying attention, and to encourage effort rather than results ("your letters are so straight and strong on that page," "I could see you were really listening to the directions"). She has definite perfectionistic tendencies, so I have been trying to emphasize "you don't have to be perfect, you just have to try".

Finally, my (lack of) parenting as a child left me with a demanding but vague set of values – it has taken me a long time, and some very clear guidance from friends as an adult, to be able to evaluate choices and make decisions based on an internal morality rather than on external expectations. I know that the idea behind description instead of evaluation and specific praise is to allow the child to develop her own values but my experience was one of yearning for some damn guideposts.

Don't know if this makes any sense…

[hush]

@Maria - I hear you that the way you were parented gave you a "demanding but vague set of values." It makes total sense that both you and your daughter might sometimes display "perfectionistic" behaviors in response to your family-of-origin history of vagueness and your resultant "yearning for some damn guideposts" as you so well put it. Me, too!

Maybe that's why the art of getting specific with the descriptions and the praise is so appealing to me. It lets the person know that you really noticed what they did, who they uniquely are, and didn't just stick a generic label on them. Kind of like the difference between when kids would write in my yearbook "stay sweet & have a great summer!" (generic) vs. "I'll never forget when Ms. Bioteacher said the word orgasm instead of organism and you and I both cracked up, that's when our friendship began..." (specific) Know what I mean?

[Cloud]

I'm enjoying this thread, even though I haven't had a chance to read the book yet.

I know I'm guilty of telling my daughter she's smart, and appreciate the ideas for other phrasings.

@Julie- I hope my kids get teachers like you.

Personally, I want my kids to think that success is a mix of finding the thing(s) that you have an aptitude for and interest in, working hard, and getting lucky. Because that is what I think is true, and it drives me batshit crazy when people don't see the luck part of the equation. I think it makes it easier to feel OK with not helping out the people who haven't had such good luck- as in "well, if he just worked hard he wouldn't need welfare".

OK, end of off-topic rant.

I'm motivated to try to find the time to read this book now.

[Cloud]

@Molly- you're still so young. You have time to figure out what you're going to do. Instead of feeling bad that it took you so long to see the effort component, feel good that you saw it- a lot of people never do.

OK, now speaking of effort, I should really put in the effort to finish my work day....

[Shelley]

I am going to read this book, but I haven't yet. I think I must have gotten both specific and general "you're so smart" praise, because I don't feel that the overpraise I grew up hearing from parents and educators was damaging. And in fact, I can think of some specific praise from educators and parents that was helpful in identifying my strengths.

Something that really excites me about this concept - specific praise - is that often parents learn from books not only how to communicate successfully with children, but also how to convey their thoughts to other adults. How much better would our relations be if we learned to communicate what we appreciate about each other in a positive and constructive light? Being articulate and specific (and positive) about our observations of friends and coworkers could make life so much better.

[Elle]

With regard to part of Maria's comment above (showing unconditional love to one's child), I've been thinking about this aspect-- because it IS that deep love that lies behind wanting to praise our kids & tell them they're wonderful and doing great. I think it's hugely important to convey that "unconditional positive regard," to quote Carl Rogers. Just not with praise.

When my 3 y.o. was deep in tantrum-land 18 months ago I started to periodically tell her things like "I like you" (not connected to any behavior) or "I had a fun time doing that with you." Maybe because we were having a lot of negative interactions at that stage! And in my demeanor trying to predictably seem happy to be with her. One thing my parents did that made a big impact on my sense of self-worth was they always seemed happy to see me and were genuinely interested in my thoughts and ideas, paid attention to my comments, etc. They LIKED me. That was very good information and experience to draw on, as I grew up and experienced social situations where I didn't feel valued, notice, or appreciated--to hold out for, and believe I was worth, being with people who liked ME. I'm hoping I can do that for my daughter. I dunno, it seems so trite to write it out, yet I witness parents who seem perenially exasperated or exhausted by their young children, and I wonder how their kids will avoid being affected by that...

[Sharon @proactiveparenting]

I got half way through reading the posts and wanted to add this before I forgot.

I love this discussion. I not only agree as a parent educator, I agree because of my own life. My parents rarely praised. When my father did praise, he focused on effort. Thanks to this discussion, I now realize why I work so hard. Working hard, the effort I put forth, is where the pay off is for me. I think my willingness to risk and not give up comes from dad praising my effort, not my smarts, thanks dad and Moxie!

Here's a tip to help you move from global praise to specific praise.

If your parents used "you're smart" to express "I love you" then unconsciously you're wired to say it to your child too. It just feels normal and natural and rolls off your tongue.

To move from automatically saying "you're smart" try prefacing your specific praise by saying, "I noticed..." Saying "I noticed..." just forces you to use specific praise.
Back to reading the rest of the posts.

[Sharon @proactiveparenting]

Okay, I finished the posts, and as always have one more thing to say.

One thing that bugs me when I read parenting books is when the author eludes to the fact that it needs to be one way or the other.

Here in Moxie-land we have all learned that "you are the best parent for your child." No one can tell you what to do, you know your child best and you know what they need in the moment. There are moments when a child needs to be told, you ARE smart.
And there are moments when you are truly loving what they're doing and should share that with a huge "Way to GO! What a good job!"

I think it's about percentages, and being authentic. If you say "you're smart" or "you're the best..." all the time, kids see through that. They come to doubt the authenticity of your words and that causes them to doubt the authenticity of their skills.

When you're specific in your praise they know they have been truly seen and experienced by their parent. That sticks with them.

I think the bottom line is the need to be conscious and aware as you speak to your child, not on automatic pilot. That's my humble opinion and two cents. Maybe that rings true for you, maybe not, only you can decide!

[Amy]

Hm, I praise a lot. Something for me to think about. I read somewhere once, though, to shoot for a 5:1 ratio of positive to negative interactions with your kid, and there's only so much I can minimize the negative interactions (14 month old, it's just not possible to baby-proof to the point where I never have to say "no, stop, don't" and intervene), how do you fill out those positive interactions without praise? It just feels "nicer" to try to focus on thanking and complimenting and appreciating my kid when she does things I do want her to do than to just be constantly harping at her about not doing the things I don't want her to do.

[maria]

@Sharon, thank you for putting that into such clear and concise words (specific praise, hehe!)!

One other point I forgot to make earlier is that one of the things I want to transmit to my daughter, that my parents didn't really convey to me, is that there IS a difference between right and wrong, good and bad, and it's ok to admit it.

Maybe it was growing up in the 70s when it was all Free To Be You and Me, and everybody was into Doing their own thing, man, but I ended up with a crazy sense that it was good not to acknowledge the difference between good and bad. You couldn't call somebody bad because they were just misunderstood, or had a bad childhood or whatever. You could possibly label an action bad – but even that was dicey because there were extenuating circumstances, other ways to look at it, more than one side of the story.

My parents, who read Haim Ginott, made a point of never calling me a good girl – or a bad one. I do call my daughter a good girl, on purpose, and I never ever call her a bad girl. I want to instill the idea in her: there is such a thing as a good person, and she is one.

My fond hope is that someday when someone is peer-pressuring her into stealing a car or cheating on a test or teasing a classmate a little voice inside that will say "I am a good person, and good people don't do this." I'd like her to have a sense of explicit identification with the good guys.

Conversely, frankly, I want her to look at the dangerous guy or the exploitive boss and know that there are bad people in the world and she has choices about whether to let them into her life. If only I had known that! She wouldn't be here in that case of course, so I can only go so far down that path, but the point is still valid.

[Julie]

I have not read the book yet, but in reading the comments, I'm noticing a blur between two related, yet separate, things: General praise/specific praise, and teaching our kids that they can do anything they want if they are willing to work hard and put in the time and effort. Effort requires focus. Focus is something that is a learned behavior and can be learned through modeling. If our children see us focus on things that are difficult yet rewarding for us, they will see the value in persistence. I think this is the precursor or first step before you can (or even should) be specific in your praise. It's related for sure, but it goes so much more beyond that. How often have your kids seen you do something that is really hard for you, something that makes you grunt and get frustrated, give up for a while and then go back and try again? Probably not very often. Our children do not know how to fail - and schools (including the one in which I work) do nothing to teach children the value in taking risks and failing. So many of the posters above talk about how school was so easy for them until BAM, it wasn't and they were a red hot mess and are just now, decades later finally getting their shit together. Schools and teachers have a responsibility to teach kids how to fail, how to fail miserably, and then take the lesson associated with failure and turn that into renewed persistence and effort. And be rewarded (with praise, grades, whatever the currency is for that situation) for that PROCESS, not the outcome.

Parents and teachers are afraid to put kids into situations where they might fail because of the fear of undermining kids' self esteem....which lately has been deemed as DELICATE. Self esteem is only delicate if it is treated as such. Kids can be tough and resilient if they know the environment in which they take risks gives them a soft place to fall when they fail and the safety to get back up and try again. Kids who are rewarded for trying hard, failing, and then trying again are the ones who turn into the Bill Gates of the world. It is a very specific and targeted lesson that needs to be repeated over and over again by parents and teachers as children grow.

I think it goes so much deeper than just being specific in your praise. You can be specific in praise for just about anything - even something that took almost no effort at all. Praise needs to be targeted at REAL effort, not just a job well done. Lots of jobs that are well done are also done easily. And praising a child - specifically! with lots of detail! about a job that was easy for them is completely missing the point of what I *think* the chapter is about. It leads them to think that EVERYTHING will be easy for them, and when something comes along that is not easy, they seize up and give up so as not to miss out on that lovely, specific, targeted praise.

[Moxie]

Maria, please please please don't tell her she's a "good" girl. Almost every email/PM/Dm I get from other women going through a painful divorce echo my own experience of having been raised to be A Good Girl and always do the right thing. Even when it wasn't what we wanted. Because we wanted to have people keep telling us we were good. I was a good person, and I married someone who looked right on paper, even though I knew two days before we got married that he wasn't right for me. But I was a good girl, and good girls don't cost their parents thousands of dollars and a whole lot of heartache by canceling a wedding.

Please don't put her in that box.

Julie, read the chapter--it hits on what you're talking about. The specific praise is to help them evaluate and focus and improve the next time. Not just to find something to say.

[Claudia]

Thanks for the discussion. I've read the chapter (almost done with the book), and my thoughts are along the lines of most everyone else.

@maria-- you're description of not labeling people really helped me understand why some people insist on giving someone chance after chance when they clearly don't deserve it.

My current conundrum is this: my daughter praises herself when she does something I ask her to do, and sometimes without any external context. She says, I'm a sweet girl. I tell her that she is sweet no matter what, but doing x makes her helpful. But I feel like I'm missing something, since I shouldn't be reinforcing the 'sweet' as generic praise, but I'm not going to tell her that she isn't sweet. Any suggestions?

[Claudia]

meant to add, I'm sure she's being told she is a sweet girl at her preschool. I am not going to tell them how to praise kids, but I do need to model my own beliefs here at home.
Her dad is typical with generic praise, usually with something like 'you're clever.' But he doesn't lavish it on.

[ARC]

This chapter really resonated with me - I was always the "smart" girl, and hated doing things I wasn't immediately good at (still do - I have to consciously work at making myself get over that).

Luckily, BabyT is only 9 months old so I can start now with the specific praise. But it's sooo hard to not tell a cuddly baby how gorgeous/cute/smart/funny she is. Sigh.

However, one thing I try really hard to do is not give her gender-specific praise. If I wouldn't say it to a boy, I'm not going to say it to her. So stuff like "good girl", "sweet", and "pretty" are all things I'm trying hard to avoid.

[maria]

I don't quite understand why it's more harmful for her to call herself sweet than helpful? I can see how the 'helpful' label could be misused as well as 'sweet,' a la Moxie's point about good girls not wrecking the wedding.

Maybe a lot of this is about teaching our kids how to treat themselves versus others? When I call my daughter a good girl I *certainly* don't mean anything that would include ignoring her own judgement for the cause of politeness or making other people feel good – quite the opposite, in fact: that she has intrinsic worth and goodness that deserves care and attention, and that it doesn't come from making other people happy, or doing a 'good job'.

[Julie]

Moxie, that's what I suspected, which is why I posted again - the conversation seemed to be veering into the specific praise area, and I feel so strongly that parents fall into that trap of "specific praise" about anything, which is equivalent to praise for being smart. Downloading onto my kindle now, so I'll be fully informed next week.
:)

[Julie]

Maria, your daughter is probably old enough to begin conversations about being a good person, and what that looks like. Instead of labeling her a "good girl" talk about the qualities of a "good person", and good people OFTEN do things that are difficult, inconvenient, and sometimes not popular, that are good choices (like, for example, calling off a wedding two days beforehand). "Good girl" implies (for many people)compliant, not rocking the boat, going along to get along....and I know you well enough to know that is not what you're teaching your daughter...in fact I know you're teaching her the opposite, simply by the way you are trying to live your life and parent your daughter. By changing your words slightly, you open up the conversation about what it means to be a good person....which IS really important.

[Chloe]

I don't tell my daughter she's smart because-what if she's not? My parents always told me I was tall and called me "long-legged girl" and when I turned out to be on the short end of average, I was pretty disappointed. If my daughter turns out to be smart, great. But I don't want her to leave first grade one day with the sickening feeling of "oh. I'm not smart after all". I do need help with ways to instill a strong work ethic in her, though. My husband has a great one, but I'm the one with my daughter all day and have always been on the lazy side (yes, I admit it). Hopefully I can get it together to lead by example.

[Sharon @proactiveparenting]

Julie @ 11:04 pm, how can you be so clear and concise at that time of night??

Thanks for your honesty at 11:04 pm. After I read it I remembered something that was a MAJOR thing in our family. My father said he would rather see us fail, than never try. He always said trying and failing gets an "A" in my book. Okay, it was the 50"s and no one ever thought that assigning a grade to things could be experienced by a child as invalidating. But his message stuck with me.

For my kids, and my clients, I always try to remind them that failing is where wisdom comes from. Never allowing failure, never making sure a child continues to try, robs a child of the opportunity to learn. That missed opportunity is showing up in our society these days.

IMHO, we want our kids to fail and succeed. I believe that true self-esteem is born out of failing, not out of being told that you're "the best."

Isn't the definition of self-esteem is knowing you're worthy without some else needing to tell you? Hence, the "self" part?

I think failure and then choosing to try again until you succeed is one of the best ways I know of for a child to truly gain self-esteem.