Spidey sense

Since I've heard the same story, with slightly different variations, twice in the last two weeks, I thought I'd say something about it.

If you are in a marriage or long-term relationship, and you feel like there's something wrong, something that you just can't put your finger on, you are probably right.

Don't discount your feelings. Don't discount that little thing inside of you that's saying "Danger!" or even just "Hmmmm..."

Wait, and watch. And while you're waiting and watching, get yourself in order. Work on your friendships, your career, your mind, and your body. Get happy with you, while knowing that whatever feels wrong probably isn't directly related to you at all anyway.

Once you are strong enough--emotionally, physically, mentally--you will discover what's going on. And by then you'll be able to handle it. Instead of falling apart, you'll call your friends, and you'll do what you need to do.

Those of us who were in the standard shouldn't-have-gotten-married relationships, who just couldn't keep a round peg in a square hole with willpower and masking tape anymore, can have a hard time understanding what it feels like to lose a marriage because of lies and deception. And people in good relationships sometimes can't even fathom how something that looks so good can go south. So just because other people might say things like "No, he would never!" or "She's not that type," don't stop trusting yourself.

You're the one in the middle of it.

You're the one who knows, even before you know.

Say what you need/want/are afraid to say in the comments...

Comments

[Geeks in Rome]

Your advice is right on, Moxie, about getting every aspect of your life in order.
When I was in a serious relationship with this guy, just out of the blue I realized there was nothing in my life but him and my job and I thought that was pretty dangerous.

So for no reason other than wanting to achieve greater balance I started exercizing, seeing my friends more, doing more stuff for me and lo and behold several months later I was told I was losing my job and my boyfriend was leaving me.

I was so grateful I had "expanded" my life because like you said, otherwise I really would have fallen apart.

I think it's wise advice even if you love your man and your job. You never know when life is going to sucker punch you.

[bawk bawk]

Ugh, how I don't want to deal with this topic. My husband is a GREAT guy - good father, smart guy with a fulfilling career and a really big heart. He adores me. And I? Am just not feeling it. We've been married for 10 years and I've been feeling uninspired in the marital arenas for many of them. I'm in ongoing discussions w/ my therapist about my "ambivalence" about him. It's not like there's another guy - there SO isn't, and I'm not even tempted in that direction. I just feel as though, if he vanished one day, it would be ok... and I could quit feeling guilty about how much work it takes to make time for him. And I could finally sleep alone and not have to worry about disrupting his sleep/his hogging the bed/etc.

The rest of my life is really full (in a good way)... and I'm not sure whether my marriage is blah because that's just how it is, or because I choose to put it at the bottom of my priority list.

[Laura]

Ditto to get yourself in order, no matter what. I am in a wonderful marriage but keeping myself together is a big part of making it work. I'm a much happier wife and mom when I'm happy about me. Same goes for hubs and we both really try to support each other in this. In my experience, great relationships empower you, enable you to be the best you possible. We all deserve that.

[C]

I go back and forth between hope and utter hopelessness that our issues will be resolved. Why is it so damn hard?

[Nelle]

This hits pretty close to home. Something has been off about my relationship of nearly 6 years -- the feelings have changed in the past year or so but, as you say, I can't say what exactly about it is not working.

I want to believe it can be salvaged, I want to make it better, but I'm just not sure where to go.

[Jessica]

I think always listening to your Spidey sense is very sound advice, even beyond long-term relationships/partnerships. I once saw an Oprah or a similar type of show where the message was while sometimes a really serious event in your life just happens randomly, most of the time there are a number of little warnings before the big thing happens and it is up to you whether or not you you listen to and heed those little warings. In my experience, this is very true. The hardest thing for me is getting a little warning, knowing something bigger or worse will be coming, and not being able to figure out what do/how I much should get involved or stay out of it at the little warning stage. This is something I am going through relative to a complicated family situation right now.

[anon for this]

and, this is why, after 7.5 years & 2 kids, I am finally getting a divorce. And, no matter how hard it is, how little this is what I wanted my life to look like and how awful I feel for our kids, a part of me feels free.

this was not about abuse, lies or cheating. just about never feeling like I was listened to, taken in and valued and finally deciding that if i was going to be with a partner, i deserved to feel that way.

thanks for your post, moxie.

[Heidi]

Amen, Sister!

[AnonInJan]

I'm actually the more likely person in the relationship to be tempted to stray; I get crushes on people and have had one nail-biting episode where I came close to wrecking what is a really, really wonderful marriage to a great guy.

So for me it's been a lot about working on myself to be the person I want to be. Which, oddly, looks a lot like what you're talking about.

It also involves treating my partner as if he's the most exciting crush of all, even when I'm not entirely feeling it. The feelings I have for other people are really /not/ about him, but it is easy to focus on them and not put the effort where it should be.

For our relationship, having the space to express my reality (I deeply love and am committed to my husband to our vows, but still experience sweeping emotions and connections to others) while ALSO being held accountable for my behaviour by my partner (and me!) has been the key, so far (15 years).

[anon4this2]

I can not even tell you how right on you are with this post! I had chills reading it. I am, fortunately, coming out of a bad situation into a good one, and it was all because of that "spidey sense". I convinced myself I was crazy, but all along I was right on. Good thing I focused on myself, and when I was ready, the bomb was dropped. And I was able to handle it. And we are working things out and things have never been better. But we are also both different people now, too. Again, it was eerie how exactly right on you were, Moxie. Thanks for posting!

[Another Anon Mom]

I'm a hybrid between bawk bawk and anon for this and then some.

Husband is a good guy, good dad, etc., but after a decade plus together, I'm not feeling it (not sure if I really ever felt it, or was in it out of self-doubt). But, I did stray. First my heart left, then my body left. It's all out in the open now, so, we're working on things. But the inertia of years of ambivalence makes that work HARD.

For those of you out there who have fallen OUT of love, and worked on it... and I mean REALLY worked on it, did it turn out? Was it worth it? Or did you just find out months/years down the line that it was always doomed? How did you know it was ok to stay, or that it was time to go?

[bawk bawk]

@Another Anon Mom, that is a REALLY good set of questions. Curious to hear the answers.

[Anon Too]

Oh,shoot. I really want to swear, but I won't. This hit me smack dab in the face.

I am also in similar situations to bawk bawk and anon for this. We look like the perfect family. We have a beautiful child, new home, appear to be happy. But, well, I'm not. Thing is, he is happy.

I think I've known that it would be like this all along. In fact, on the weekend he proposed I was planning to break up with him. But, then I just got caught up in everything. I kept telling myself he's a good catch. And, the day before we got married my mom told me I could back out if I wanted to. She just wanted me to know that if I had any second thoughts not to worry about the money, the people, what anyone else thought. I did have second thoughts, but I didn't do anything about it. Everyone said he was a good guy, smart, nice, successful. Now I feel totally stuck. I really want it to work, to be happy. I'm just not sure I will ever be happy. I guess the first step would be to go to counseling. I really want to make it work, for my son and for me. But, I need to be happy and I'm really not. I also have this thing in my head that says the grass is not greener on the other side. Even though I'm not happy, he's not abusive, hasn't cheated, provides for our family, and encourages me to do things for myself. So, why do I feel empty, lost, alone, so alone.

I have the same questions as Another Anon Mom. So, I look forward to hearing what people have to say.

[anon]

This is a really tough one. I too realized that I wasn't sure that I loved husband my husband enough, wasn't sure if it was right, wasn't sure if I could maintain our relationship. He is great - funny, reliable, good father, loves me, etc - but he I just thought he wasn't the guy for me. And I felt that everything about him reflected on me, because I chose him.

But we have kids who love him, I would be impoverished if we divorced (our area is so expensive), I don't think I have the patience to be a good single mom, and honestly & shallowly, I just didn't want to "be divorced". But I also thought that my feelings were more about me - and a grass is greener feeling.

One day, I was listening an Indian woman talking on the radio about her parents arranged marriage, and how her mother and father grew into loving one another, and how it was a conscious process. They both went in knowing they would need to choose to find things to love in this stranger. That their parents felt they would be more or less compatible, but after that it was up to them.

So, I decided to view my marriage as an arranged marriage. I looked for things to love about my husband, I looked for things that I appreciated and made me happy in my relationship. And I let imperfections go - I blamed them on the fictitious person who chose him for me (maybe that person didn't know he sometimes makes embarrassing, inappropriate jokes?).

And now, I actually do feel much happier I my relationship and can see staying with him forever. But it also helped that I did what Moxie is suggesting. Looked to other things in my life - friends and activities and creative work - to help fill my cup.

Obviously this wouldn't work in a lot of situations - certainly not if really knew for sure the relationship was wrong. But it really helped me work out my malaise and it changed things for me.

Note: I have not shared this mental framework with my husband - in a way I really want to, because it has been the source of a lot of happiness for me (and therefore us), but I just can't think of a way where it wouldn't sound completely hurtful!

[SoTotallyAnon]

Can we please, please have a post tomorrow on the kind "who just couldn't keep a round peg in a square hole with willpower and masking tape anymore"?! I really need one. I am almost out of masking tape.

[ACJ]

So I think I'm interested in hearing too maybe what people expect out of marriage - not regarding the spidey sense stuff because that is a serious breach looming I'm sure and in another category.

But in the, I'm Just Not Feeling It camp, please say more about that.

I came at marriage having been taught over time from other people we know and admire that marriage isn't intended to make us happy, but to make us holy. Or in less religious-speak, make us better. And the key here being Marriage having a purpose, not Partner.

So my measure for marital success or viability has been, Is this commitment making me better. Not, "is He making me better (or happy or whatever)", but, "Is my commitment to him, our shared life, our betters and worses - are those things moving me towards Better Me?"

I guess this takes the pressure off of him? Which frankly would be a lot of pressure, if I made my prone-to-anxiety-and-gloom-self's happiness his responsibility. But I don't know what I would do if I found myself realizing that I wasn't Better Me at the end of it all...

Intrigued to hear more.

[caramama]

I'll try to answer Another Anon Mom with the example of my parents (my marriage does not qualify with what she was asking).

My parents marriage was/is not perfect. They are very different in many ways, ways that probably seemed exciting when they first were dating. After they got married and moved in together and started a family, those difference were magnified. Over the years, there were a lot of difficulties. At one point, my mom was about to leave my dad (with us three kids), and he knew it. He vowed to make changes, which he did. My mom also made changes, though I'm not sure if she was ever vocal about them.

I don't think they did any couples counseling (not really the thing to do back then), but they did start going to church together and Bible study classes. They did start communicating better and thinking of the other person and the kids, not just of themselves (okay, this was probably more an issue for my dad than mom).

Most importantly, they made (re-made?) the commitment to each other to work on the marriage, to make it better, to STAY married and together.

It was not easy, and there were problems over the years. Lucky no deal breakers (that I know of) like cheating or lying or abuse. But we all know the little things can add up and deteriorate your relationships if you let them. They decided to not let them.

Over 40 years of marriage later, they are very happy together, and they have been for years. What anon wrote about her parents arranged marriage reminds me of my parents, because they have grown into a truly deep love with each other. They are a role model for many of the younger couples they know, especially because they had problems and worked on them.

From their example, I realize that marriage takes work, but that work can be SO worth it. I realize that things aren't always going to be perfect and feelings can change, but they can also change again.

So after my long ramble, this example of my parents shows that the work can pay off. My parents are very glad they stayed married and are very happy. They love each other, and they love their life.

I know this isn't true for everyone. And I do think the right thing for some people is absolutely divorce. I think my parents knew that it was the right choice to stay together when they both agreed to work on it and try to make it work together. So there is one example.

[hush]

What Moxie said: "You're the one who knows, even before you know." These comments are blowing my mind - in a good way.

It sounds like some of you are looking for validation; for the elusive green light assuring you that yes, it is ok to leave a ho-hum, soul-sucking relationship even where there are none of the Four A's (abuse, adultery, abandonment, addiction)- even though it only looks good on paper, even though they're a "great parent," and even though you feel you had your exit window years ago and missed it forever (you didn't). So I'm saying it: yes, it is ok, but with one major caveat: leaving doesn't guarantee you'll be any happier than you are right now, despite how "Eat, Pray, Love" may have ended.

At the end of the day, You are still going to be You - complete with all of your usual patterns, and you probably won't change. That is, unless you manage to follow through with the hard personal work necessary to get to the real root of your dissatisfaction. Change is just so hard. See how crowded the gym is every January? Not so by March. I am a real Debbie Downer today -sheesh.

My point is no one else can make you happy. Others can certainly make you unhappy, but your own personal happiness is your problem.

Now for something completely different - to those of you like my BFF who thought they were in a happy relationship when suddenly their spouse left them for someone else: I've learned that sometimes the signs AREN'T there. Some people are very gifted liars. It hurts my friend so much when people insinuate that she somehow should have known. The only sign was "went to Vegas one time." So while spidey sense is a good thing that we should all notice always, etc, please don't beat yourself up if you felt no spidey sense at all - it doesn't always work that way.

[maxzmama]

so true on the spider sense. My spider sense was tingling for several years but I kept telling myself that it was my hormones (miscarriage, infertility) or that it was because husband wasn't happy in his job and once he changed jobs, everything would be OK. he changed jobs and then my spider sense really tingled. Then we moved, I got pregnant, had a beautiful baby and then a hip replacement and things were really awful. I told myself (and he convinced me) that it was sleep deprivation on all of our parts, having a child, and the stress of my surgery, etc. Finally when my son was 2 years old, I let myself go and did some really simple sleuthing and couldn't believe what I found. He had been cheating on me with a woman known to both of us for 4 years (on and off)! That was it for me. I have been separated from him for one year (required under Canadian law) and hoping to be offiically divorced from him in another month. He is an active father of our child, and I decided months ago that since this is probably an 18 year project, raising a child "together", that I have to make it work even if he is a p%ick at times. I have realized that there was a lot missing from what I thought was a good marriage, that my friends and family, who I set aside because of his demands/needs thought he was a control freak and mean spirited at times, and that I am such a happier person now than I have been for a long time - and a better mother on my own.
I wish I had responded to my spider sense a long time ago - however, if I had, I wouldn't have my darling son. So I don't think of it as time wasted. I learned a lot of lessons from it and know I am a stronger person for it all.

[MrsHaley]

I *really* like what @anon 11:44 & ACJ said.

I have two thoughts on this, and I hope neither one comes out offensively. Preemptive apologies. I'll do my best:

First, I think our culture's (?) expectations for marriage are too high. Expecting one relationship to fulfill so many needs is unrealistic and when it doesn't happen, I think people feel unnecessarily let down. I think if expectations for the primary partnership were lowered, more partnerships would survive. I have thought a LOT about this, and I always come back to the long-term success of arranged marriages, much like @anon.

Which brings me to ...

I firmly believe that the commitment to my marriage is a choice I make and re-make every day. If there's passion, friendship, love, frivolity, whatever, on any given day ... well, that's gravy. It certainly started that way, and all that good stuff comes and goes with the regularity you'd expect ... But if I based staying in my marriage on my *feelings* then I would be up the creek. I stay because I committed to say, because I choose to stay, be cause I decided, and decide, to stay. Behaving lovingly is my choice. I ACT as though I love him every day. Most days, I do. On the days I don't, my actions are more important than my feelings.

My DH have talked about exactly this, though, and we are on the same page. It's comforting to know neither one of us will leave (except in the case of the 4 As which I've mentioned before) but it also means our options are limited. That's good and bad. I choose to look at it as good. "The devil you know," and all that.

Please, no offense intended to those who need/want more than what I've chosen. It's what works for us.

[anontoday]

mrshaley, you are exactly where i am. except i haven't really talked to my dh about it...this is just where we are.

[E]

I totally agree with Moxie and trusting one's instincts. For those pondering relationship fit or happiness questions, I offer this:

One of my very best friends is of Indian descent. Her parents immigrated from India just before she was born. They had an arranged marriage in India. Thirty-something years later, they're still married, seem happy and well-adjusted. Not an unusual story for people of that culture I would guess. My take, though, is that if you have 2 people who are committed to the marriage and willing to work at it and take the goods with the bads of the other person, it can work out. This couple didn't have months/years of dating to decide if the other was "the one" or look for the spark. Their parents chose. I'm not advocating staying in a marriage where you're unhappy or there is abuse or lying/cheating/etc. I just like to remember them every time I hit a point in my marriage when I'm feeling "ugh". Obviously different cultures, different people...but lessons to be learned nonetheless.

...for what its worth.

[Anonforthis]

Oh, yes. You can fall out of love and then back in. I'm twenty years married. May not be perfect, but I love him so.

[E]

@Anon (11:44)
Ha, I totally didn't get to your post before posting. Well said!

[stacy]

I love reading the perspectives on arranged marriages. I often think about what that must be like and I really like how some of the previous posters chose to compare their own marriages to an arranged marriage (I'm not wording this properly, but you hopefully know what I'm saying). Brilliant! I am going to try to think on those terms as well.

[Cloud]

@hush- I think your comment is spot on. Someone else can make you unhappy, but no one else can really make you happy. That comes from you.

I don't really fall into this category, so I don't have much insight. I will say, though, that I have a struggled a bit now and then- not wanting to cheat, but wondering Is this it? My relationship with my husband started out in a swirl of romance. So when that was done, and we were settling down to day to day living, it was a bit hard to adjust.

After some soul searching, I decided yes, this is it. And that it is good.

Hubby and I are great partners in running our lives. We both truly respect the other person. He's the one I want to tell when anything (good or bad) happens in my life. The romance comes and goes, as does the feeling of being in love. But I've decided that's OK. I think you can be in love without having that intense feeling all the time.

I hope all of you struggling with this right now can figure out what is right for you.

[SarcastiCarrie]

I'm with Mrs. Haley, several anons, AJC (except for the religious framework), and hush.

My marriage is my primary relationship and the foundation for our children. I am married because I want a partner in life.

My husband is a great guy. We get along well and manage a home together well enough (dirty dishes notwithstanding and why doesn't he ever clear the remaining time off of the microwave).

He's a good father, supports me in whatever I want to do, does considerate things occasionally, keeps me grounded (apparently, I cannot sing and have no rhythm, which he informed me gently by covering his eyes and ears!), is an excellent father who always wants better for his kids, does not lie, cheat, drink excessively, or smoke, treats me respectfully, and is a genuinely good person. Sometimes, there is no spark, but you muddle through to the other side of the sleep deprivation and rekindle some romance by reminiscing about early first kisses or steal a grope while doing dishes (or while using cartoons as an electronic babysitter on Saturday morning...not that I've ever done that).

I don't want to say my marriage is boring, but it's comfortable. We don't (usually) take each other for granted. It's that we both know we're in this for the long haul. Ups, downs, and all. This marriage is for the rest of our lives. It's OK to stay in a marriage that is not exciting (in fact, I would choose my boring over "drama" any day). It's OK if your marriage is fulfilling in one or many, but not all, areas of your life.

Personally, I feel that a marriage is the best place to raise children (which is why I support same-sex marriage). And I think that marriage is good for society-at-large. Yay marriage!

[Goddess Babe]

FYI
I pinged Hedra that she should check out this post and make comment. She won't be able to check in until later tonight or perhaps tomorrow, so for those of you holding out for Hedra, have heart!

[Anon Too]

Anon at11:44a, CaraMama, Hush, Mrs Haley, E, everyone else...thank you for your comments. This is exactly what I needed to hear today.

I really want my marriage to work...especially because *I* made this choice and I really want it to work. The issues are with *me*, not the marriage and not really my husband. I was a joyful person once and we were deeply in love once a long time ago, somewhere along the way, I've gotten lost.

I think, too, that I have completely unrealistic expectations of my spouse, marriage and life in general. I look around and I see what I want to see...that everyone else is blissfully happy, they are great moms, their hubbies are perfect, on and on. I then constantly think why aren't I like that, why isn't he like that, why isn't life like that. In reality, life isn't like that.

I really appreciate all of you being so candid. This has really helped me. In fact, I've already called to set up counseling for me and hubby. And, more importantly to get myself individual counseling. Because I think the issue may be with how I interpret life.

Thank you all, ladies. And, thank you Moxie for posting this today.

[Katie B.]

I actually approach my marriage sort of in the "arranged" sense some have mentioned; DH and I are very different, and every time one of our differences gets highlighted (more and more as DD shows willful toddlerhood) I wonder why I stay... but then I remember the reasons, and resolve to work harder on meeting in the middle. I won't say it's easy... but he's a good man, and a good friend, and a good husband, and we knew we'd have to work at this all our lives when we went into it.

[stacy]

Related question: How do you make that step to get counseling, either marriage or individual? I'm not talking about making the decision to do so, but logistically, what did you do? Did you open the Yellow Pages and call the closest one? This is something I've been thinking may benefit my marriage, but I don't know where to begin. I'm sure it can't be that difficult. Thanks!

[SarcastiCarrie]

The time I thought about getting family counseling, I went to this website:
http://www.therapistlocator.net/index.asp
to find a Marriage and Family therapist.

It lists areas of expertise and insurance plans accepted. It also lists educational credentials. You can figure out whether the person has a religious affiliation as well. Many work on sliding scales. I believe Catholic Charities also offers inexpensive counseling (possibly free), and it is not through priests who have never been married.

[Anon Too]

@Stacy - I had been thinking about counseling for a long time. I discussed it with my spouse and we decided it was a good idea. I had researched quite a bit on line. Honestly, I am too embarrased to ask anyone I know. I felt like it was divulging too much of our personal life to admit we are going to see a therapist. I want to keep that private. Plus, I don't know if any of our friends are in counseling. If you don't have the same issue, it probably makes the most sense to get a recommendation from someone you know.

I really like the idea of meeting with a married therapist team. I also think that men and women approach things differently. So, that was important to me. Luckilly, I found a few married teams close to where we live through on line searches. I emailed each of them to find out about their philosophies, fees, etc. One, in particular, stood out to me in terms of his responsiveness, attitude and approach. I have been putting off calling to make an appointment with him and his wife. I finally did so today after this post and the comments. I figure that if I don't like them or their approach after a session or two, I can always find someone else. You never really know how it will work out until you meet them.

I hope this helps.

[mom2boys]

I've been going to individual counseling as well as couples counseling for about six months. I and we have been seeing a psychologist, PhD. I’m about to switch to an individual session with a psychiatrist, MD. I went to a psychiatrist when the baby was about 3 months but the drugs that one gave me were so not helpful. I wasn’t nursing but xanax – really? I don’t know. I think the whole world is over medicated so maybe I’m biased but I’m willing to give it another shot b/c if I hear “Fake it til you feel it” one more time I’m going to really lose it. Anyway, she’s (the PhD) been really nice and helpful in encouraging/facilitating better communication but it’s not helping my underlying unhappiness. I just googled for a therapist in my area and sent emails to the three whose websites I liked best and went with the one I felt most comfortable with.

[stacy]

Thanks for the recommendations and advice on counselors!

[Julie]

This topic is near and dear to my heart, as I am living it right now. In reading the comments, my thoughts were, "I WISH I had been married to someone I respected and admired, I wish I thought he was a great guy and a great dad to my kids, and I wish that he respected me and treated me well." He did none of those things. A lot of people who know him would say they thought he was a great guy, but the truth was, he wasn't a great guy to me. He said all the right things and did all the right things until we were home alone and then he would act like an asshole to me. Looking back, I think I suffered from emotional abuse - the kind where he WANTED to change, went to THERAPY to change, apologized for his behavior and promised to not treat me that way again, but I think there was too much broken inside him to ever be able to fix it.

The decision to divorce is a difficult one to make. For me it was not just about me feeling blah in my marriage and bored. He was not a good husband to me, not a good father to my kids, and he was mean spirited.

Hedra has said in the past that you know you are with the right person (or good person, or whatever your definition of a partner in a relationship that is deemed "healthy") by the fact that all your other relationships bloom and grow as well. I would like to add onto that, because I think from my experience I have learned that to determine whether a person is a good person to be married to a lot can be learned from how they handle themselves in conflict. Are they quick to blame others instead of accepting responsibility for their part? Do they fight to win, or argue to understand or be understood? These were issues that ruined my marriage, though not the only ones by a long shot.

I can't say whether the posters above who feel they are married to the wrong person because they are ambivalent about their marriages should stay married or not. I think for me, I could not stay married to THAT PERSON one second longer. But again, this was a case of emotional abuse and not a case of NGB ("nice guy, but....")

I believe people fall in and out of love throughout the course of a healthy marriage. I found myself wishing I had been married to an NGB. I tried for a long time to fool myself (with wishes, masking tape, etc.) into thinking I was married to a good guy. The reality that I finally accepted is that he is not a good guy. I ignored a lot of red flags along the way that were telling me he was not a good guy. I would urge those of you who are just feeling ambivalent to figure out what specifically you are ambivalent about and fix that, and not automatically assume your wonderful-on-paper husband is the cause. If he really is a good guy, with a good heart, who treats you well and loves you well and takes care of your kids.....
...you know, I can't even say it. I have learned that you just can't advise anyone whether to stay or to go. It is a decision that can only be made inside your own heart and mind. Know that whatever your decision, I support you in your journey.

[caramama]

@Julie - I swear sometimes I think you must be married to an ex-boyfriend of mine! Thank goodness I finally listened to my spidey senses (after almost 2 years together) and ditched him. (Actually, I may not have it he hadn't tried to guilt me into NOT doing something I had dreamed of since I was in single digits--studying abroad in Italy.) From what I know about your hubby, it definitely sounds like emotional abuse, and that's a big reason to go.

[stillbecoming]

Julie, I really appreciate your story. It really helped me to realize there's a world of difference btw my NGB situation and a real "get-out-and-get-out-now" epiphany.
Not that I am saying everyone with a NGB should stay, but the number of folks here who mirror my own situation makes me think this is indeed a common stage of marriage, and, yes, the sleep deprivation may have something to do with it.
What we all need is a "Wonder Weeks" type book about marriage . . . the times that are perfectly normal and are just a phase.
In fact--maybe that's just it--maybe some of these are the cranky phases that actually mean something bigger is brewing. Perhaps if we wait them out, we will come out the other end stronger, better, bigger, and with new skills.
The marriage version of Wonder Weeks might also help some of us to know when something is truly not right--but as Moxie has said, as moms and as wives and in our other relationships, we have to trust our gut first. I just always like to have a book to back me up. . .:) I guess I'm just that kind of gal.
Sending my love and support to all of you in your situations. You are your own best parent.

[caramama]

@stillbecoming - That. Is. Effing. Brilliant!!!! Who wants to write a Wonder Weeks for marriages book with me?

[Julie]

@caramama, you know my last name and I *think* you also know my husband's name, but it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility if you had dated him as he lived in DC for a while. How freaky/funny would that be?????

I also think you would be a GREAT person to write the wonder weeks of marriage book, as I think you and your husband have something to be admired. Unfortunately (or fortunately) you have not yet experienced all the "phases" of marriage, so we would have to wait a long time to read it!

[caramama]

@Julie - He's definitely not my ex. I know some basics about where he is now (not in the US) because he sent me a Facebook friend request. (I quickly looked at his profile and then hit Ignore faster than you can blink!) But it would have been crazy funny it was!

I'm sure we have not experienced all the phases of marriage, but the Wonder Weeks researches wrote on data gathered from many different mothers, not their own personal data. So I could still write it like they did! It would just take lots of input from married people.

[k]

To add to what others have said about arranged marriages... Just before I got married, a cabbie told me that the difference between marriage in America and marriage in India is this: In America, we marry the one we love. In India, you love the one your marry.

[Cloud]

@stillbecoming- that's a cool idea.

I think sleep deprivation and the huge increase in household responsibilities that comes with kids is hard on any marriage.

Maybe we could all share some of our ideas for keeping things afloat through this tough time?

My favorite thing that Hubby and I do for this is Friday Night Beers. After the kids are in bed on Friday night, we sit on the sofa and have a beer and talk. And I pump. Its very romantic.

We've also tried date lunches (we both work in the same geographic area), but those took organization and planning. Friday Night Beers can just happen.

[SarcastiCarrie]

I heard (I think on CBS Sunday Morning) that with modern marriages, you are hot for eachother and get married and things cool over time. In an arranged marriage, you become infatuated and pine for each other during the course of your marriage and learn more about each other over time. So, if you throw the 3-7 years of dating we often have before marriage into the beginning of your marriage, it is many, many more years of marriage before the cooling effect would take place (say 10-14 years into marriage instead of 7).

@caramama and Julie - I dated your ex too. I think we all did. Stupid 20-year old me. I wish I could go back in time and shake me by the shoulders and tell me that I am worth more than that. Branch out. Get friends. Find activities. But I can't. So, I am developing a good relationship with my 15-year old sister.

[6 Years]

Never posted here before but I read the page occasionally. Very timely discussion. I totally understand, appreciate, and agree with the 'not expecting marriage to be romance all the time' part and with us having too high expectations for it.

BUT.. what do you do when you are longing for a sexual spark and there just isn't chemistry with your kind, loving, sweet husband? He thinks there is a spark - I don't. I haven't really told him that but I have been trying and trying to communicate what I want and need and it just isn't happening. There has never been that 'spark' even when we were dating. I knew he would be a great husband, and I made the choice to marry him. I don't regret that, but sometimes I feel like I'm going to go crazy because I am not fulfilled sexually.

For other types of dissatisfaction you can find other outlets for getting your needs met - not so with sex. I can't just run out and have an affair (and besides, I really don't want to). But I don't really know what you do when the person you are with just doesn't do it for you. I feel like none of my friends feel this way, but I don't know because we don't talk about it.

[Anon this time]

I'm another one who became dissatisfied with my marriage early on, and had an affair. I think I was looking for someone to make me feel petted and urgently desired in a way my husband didn't (and still doesn't) do: he doesn't murmur sweet nothings or sweep me off my feet. Instead, he cares for me, listens to me, knows me deeply, makes the choice to be with me no matter what I'm like on a given day. We worked through the pain I caused with the affair (and heartbreaking, horrible pain it was, too), and now I have slowly grown into the love he's showed me from the beginning: I, too, choose to be here with him and our children. Like MrsHaley, I re-make the choice every day about this love, this partnership. Romance is gravy (and sometimes, these days, I even get it.)

It might have been right for someone else to leave. But when he found out about what I did, I knew I would do anything to stay with him, if he'd have me. To heal what I'd broken. That was the right choice for me.

[L.]

Yep, I fall in with @MrsHaley and @Katie B. too as regards the NGBs. Some times are easier, some are harder, but I think expectations can be way too high. Especially these days: we've been married 8 years, have one child who's almost 3 and a baby who's just over half a year old, so when I get grumpy I remind myself that these are tough times, even if little kids are awesome in other ways. And, my husband is just a human being and, though I love him very much, he's not going to be perfect or my end-all/be-all. Maybe it's better that he isn't, you know? Because, to reframe Moxie's thoughts in a different direction, it keeps me from being too reliant on our relationship to solve everything.

I also try to be honest about my own failings on difficult days. It's so easy to cast blame instead of working on myself--he doesn't do this, he does that--but if I'm honest, I have a perfectly matching set of weaknesses, and then some. I try to think about what my life would look like without my husband and acknowledge how many of the same issues would still present themselves. I really like what someone attributed to Hedra above--that a good partner helps you bloom in other areas. One of the things I like about my husband is that he has broadened my horizons and made me a better person, not necessarily on purpose, just by being himself.

So glad that you are feeling hope and are taking steps to get what you need, @Anon Too.

[anonbuthappy]

I don't know if my comment is at all helpful, because marriage is one aspect of my life I find easy and positive (as opposed to, say, my so-called career, or how I feel about my physical appearance, or my intermittent thirty-something What Am I Doing With My Life crisis).

This isn't to say that we don't have our moments of exasperation and our (impressively loud) screaming matches. But we always ultimately sit down together and fall naturally into problem resolution mode.

The key for me is that I know that no one on earth "gets" me the way he does. Even when we're in the middle of some seemingly intractable conflict, I know that he will eventually understand exactly why I feel the way I do, and I will understand why he feels the way he does. It's just a matter of taking a deep breath and finding the words (and maybe slamming a door or two and sitting alone fuming in the bathroom before coming back to sit down calmly on the couch).

Linked to this, and even more important, is that I am certain that he is there for me emotionally. Whatever my problem -- from the big, scary stuff from my past that seemed too dark to share to the tiny, stupid worries about my complexion or a bad day at work -- I know he'll listen and back me up. He'll reassure me, he'll stand by me, he won't run away.

Finally, my husband shares the household and childcare tasks equally. More than that, he naturally takes up slack when I can't contribute they way I want to or feel I should, and there's no question of keeping score. I suspect this is a hidden reason a lot of women feel vaguely dissatisfied in marriage when they aren't as lucky as I am.

Not that our life together is perfect. Last night my husband freaked out and over-dramatized our two-and-a-half-year-old's refusal to sleep (as I tried ineffectively to reassure with Moxie Wisdom), and we ended up fighting over it. Then, once we came to an understanding over that, he kept me up until one o'clock explaining the relative merits of different recordings of Bach cantatas, refusing to notice I could care less. Sleep can be elusive in this family, I tell you...

And, after ten years together, passion can be hard to find (me, choose sleep over sex? nah...). That is one aspect of my marriage that takes work, in my experience.

But overall, I get so much more out of marriage than I put in. I think that marriages should be just that: exothermic, not endothermic, if that makes sense.

Just wanted to add my experience to the discussion, in case it helps.

[Rudyinparis]

This has been a great string to read through, and I so relate to so much here... One thing that has entered my mind as I've read through these is, for many of us I think, the time when we most need that deep level of intimacy and comfort with our partners (because of the stresses in our lives due to having small children) is when the emotional capacity of both partners is so depleted--because of the stresses in our lives due to having small children. I know for sure this is the case for me. It's work-work-work-kids-kids-kids and then what I most want is to have a nourishing connection, sexually and emotionally, with my partner. But what happens? We're both exhausted--I fall asleep because I get up so early to go to work, he washes the dishes because, well, someone has to wash the dishes! And I'm asleep, anyway. And another day goes by, and neither of our inner selves has been fed what it needs. I get "date night" and I dig it, and we do it--but that's just a quick fix and doesn't get to the bigger problem. There's just not the time.

@ 6 years--I don't know. A therapist, maybe? One certified in sex therapy?

Years ago--way before kids, way before even DH entered my life, I read the book "The good mother". There's a part in it where the main character is talking to her mom or her grandmother--can't remember--about marriage and the grandmother (think it was) makes a comment along the lines of "Oh, then there was that 7 years we were in Detroit--those were hard, hard years." My younger, wildly romantic self, was really stunned by this. 7 YEARS of not-greatness! Holy cow! But now, I get it. Marriage requires a long view. My younger self also used to say I'd never be with someone just due to the "idea" of marriage (or monogamy, or what have you)--that I would choose, daily, to be with that person over anyone else. Well, now (LOL), there are days, thankfully not too many, when I know I'm slogging through it, gritting my teeth, doing it for the sake of the marriage. I get through those days. DH still thrills me in many ways. But oh, when you're young and they say, "Marriage is hard" you don't get it--until one day, you do.

[Anon...whooo boy am I anon for this]

There's a lot right with my relationship with my spouse but there's one major thing wrong with it...he's not interested anymore. Just. Not. Interested. And not interested in doing anything about getting interested. And I'm...not willing to let this be the rest of my life.

And yet...do I break up a marriage over this? Do I put my son through a divorce over this? Do I put my son through joint custody and moving back and forth and certain acrimony from some quarters over this?

At the moment, I'm thinking not. But something's gonna have to change somewhere.