I still don't know exactly what happened with the first More Moxie class, but all the emails have been resent so everyone in that class should have gotten them by now. I apologize for screwing it up.
I've been working on reformatting the questions for the Release the Yelling class. (Starts this Thursday and runs for 3 weeks M-F. I email you a question every day to help you identify and work through your yelling issues. $21, and sign up here.)
I'm wondering if people who've taken the class in the first two sessions would chime in and talk about how it helped them or not.
I know I worked through some of my issues with yelling, particularly about the morning routine, and have largely conquered that now. My big yelling trigger was when it was time to put on shoes in the morning and they wouldn't and wouldn't and wouldn't.
However, my other big trigger is when they physically fight with each other. I'm having more problems with this one, and am trying to work through it. So I'll be doing the exercises for the class along with everyone who takes it in an effort to get over that yelling as I've largely gotten over the footwear-related yelling.
Anyone who took either of the first two sessions want to talk about what happened with you during the course of the course?
Or anyone else want to talk about triggers?
my main trigger is food throwing. everyone drops stuff, especially when you're 2, but the purposeful, gleeful flinging gets me madder than just about anything else he can do. i've been trying hedra's 'boring response' method some, but that first shriek - hard to stifle myself!
Posted by: marci | October 06, 2009 at 10:53 AM
Ugh - the yelling. I hate it.
I yell when I'm out of patience. I guess that's the obvious answer.
Heat is a trigger and in Florida that's pretty much all the time but especially when it's 90 degrees and humid and it's only 7:30 in the morning and I'm trying to fortheloveof-- get him in his car seat.
Sharon the Mommy Mentor told me that you just can't always expect cooperation from a toddler. That was like a parting of the fog for me. I know, duh, but I guess I needed to hear it to get it.
I was explaining and talking and providing options and waiting and talking and on and on and on and ohmy-- why are you still freaking out about having your pee soaked diaper off? He's just going to scream and fuss about some things and waiting for him to calmly acquiesce was pushing me to the brink and I'd eventually lose it.
Keeping margins really helps keep me sane in the morning/evening. Having enough time to handle spills, stand-offs, screaming fits, what have you, without thinking the whole ship is going to capsize if we don't leave, get a bath, go to sleep Right Now.
On an adult level, being direct with what I need and want and don't need and don't want is huge. Mind reading doesn't work. Nursing grudges doesn't work. Feeling unheard is a huge trigger because it builds up and I lose it over stupid unrelated things. But I have the power to make myself heard - that's on me.
When the nine year old gets in the two year old's personal space to play and won't back off until the LO is yelling, screaming, crying. That makes me nuts. And it doesn't stop. Ever. Haven't found a good solution to that.
Posted by: mom2boys | October 06, 2009 at 10:55 AM
What is the deal with the shoes? I guess that would be my trigger as well.
Posted by: SarcastiCarrie | October 06, 2009 at 11:02 AM
I used to yell at my two year old when he was non-cooperative with the evening routine (playing impossible to brush his teeth or get his pajamas on) and I would just lose it, and feel horrible afterwards. Just like the world's biggest piece of shit mommy. I hate the thought that I've been scary to him.
Now when I start to raise my voice and get impatient he says, calmy, "mommy don't use your loud voice, it scares me" and that stops me dead in my tracks.
He's 2 1/2.
I must admit, if I had a baby on top of a toddler, I think I'd be flying off the handle daily :)
Posted by: sarah | October 06, 2009 at 11:24 AM
While I don't necessarily yell less, I feel less terrible about it. I am entitled to lose my patience; I am a human being--things bother me. I am much faster to apologize if I blow up. I spent time recently with a pair of parents who never, ever yell and that is just not me. Their kids are generally well behaved, but sometimes the occasion (due to urgency, danger, etc.) calls for a louder tone. This is just my opinion.
I've had some revelations lately that although I think I am constantly messing up as a parent, my kids' behavior with others and in public settings indicates otherwise.
The class definitely helped me be able to see what could be a trigger (down the pike, instead of as it happens). After we moved and became a one car + one train commuter family, we all had to be out the door at 7:30. New rule is that everyone has to have clothes and sunscreen on before sitting down to breakfast, which is a huge change from before. Kids don't like it but I'm firm. Even though it doesn't take extra time to put on shoes and do hair before breakfast vs. after, I think there will be less morning stress if I enforce this also, so that's going to happen next week after vacation is over.
Posted by: Kate | October 06, 2009 at 11:33 AM
Having the 1.5-year old ignore me when I'm speaking to her triggers my anger. But just this morning I suddenly realized that her ignoring me is probably because she's concentrating on something else, and I've been really hoping she would build her concentration skills.
So I think I'll be less angry now at this particular thing.
Posted by: HappyMama | October 06, 2009 at 11:34 AM
Biggest tip that stayed with me after the Yelling class was: if the child isn't changing after multiple confrontations, what can *I* change to make this smoother? Seems simple, needed it spelled out.
I tell myself that they are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing - testing limits, etc. That helps, too. I remind myself I am doing the best I can w/ little help.
The other day my 6yo yelled at the 2yr and said, "[FULL NAME]! That is not acceptable!" So I must be doing something right, that that is the memorized patter. Much better than it might be! Though I hatehatehate and try to stop scaring them, which sometimes still happens. I scare myself! So much emotional maturity to figure out how to develop.
Posted by: Katy | October 06, 2009 at 11:39 AM
We put shoes on in the car with the two year old. Shoes are really hard to force on someone who just doesn't want shoes on. I've heard "Wait I don't have my shoes on yet" from older more times than I can count so he has to be fully dressed in the morning before he can have breakfast or watch tv. Other times of the day I just count on an extra few minutes once I think I am ready to walk out the door b/c it's inevitable - "wait, I don't have my shoes on yet" no matter how many times he was reminded and no matter that he's probably already said "I am" to each reminder. Is "Come on, seriously!" damaging to the psyche of a 9 year old?
Posted by: mom2boys | October 06, 2009 at 11:39 AM
Blatant lying really pissse me off. When I see the 4.5 year old throwing the 2.5 year old's place mat on the floor and he has seen that I've seen him do it and still says ' Zoe did it', infuriates me beyond belief.
And the lack of co-operation in the 4.5 y.o. We have had so many 'little talks' about how you just have to do some things even if you don't really want to. Like make dinner, give people a bath ( have sex!). He is slowly starting to get the concept, but still kicks up a fuss.
Evening routines have become pretty much tolerable after shifting some things around. Like getting the kids to brush immediately after dinner. That way we don't have a huge fight just before bed time and so yelling is limited.
Oh and I agree with @Mom2boys with being direct with what you need with adults. Getting things off your chest before they escalatehas helped so much with the man.
Posted by: paola | October 06, 2009 at 11:46 AM
I have not taken the yelling class, but I am rereading How to Talk and its incredibly helpful. Has already greatly reduced my yelling. I think the part that I like best about it is that it treats the child with respect and give them credit for being able to change their behavior. My personal pet peeve with other parents is people who seem to encourage a lack of responsibility in their children and How to Talk is unapologetic about parents' anger and does not make excuses for bad behavior of kids.
Posted by: MLB | October 06, 2009 at 11:48 AM
Personally, I was really disappointed in the class. The email message with the questions was late (more than a day) a couple of times, and so that really threw the whole thing off. I don't have too much money to spare, so I really thought I was buying a quality, professional "product." I know life gets in the way and accidents happen, but it was still really off-putting. I still really enjoy reading AskMoxie, but I won't be paying for anything again.
Posted by: Allison | October 06, 2009 at 12:16 PM
For the evening routine, I was recently going to institute a star chart for getting the three items done (wash hands, brush teeth, go potty) and I drew little pictures with each of those things (potty is just a picture of a toilet - nothing more depictive).
Anyway, I had the construction paper chart sitting on the bathroom counter when the 4-year old walked in and started doing the things with no explanation or promise of stickers or rewards or anything. Just seeing what was expected of him on paper now makes him do it (I alwyas figured he knew that we did the same things every night so..of course, we're going to brush our teeth again tonight, but apparently not).
I guess I should put one by the front door with shoes on it.
Posted by: SarcastiCarrie | October 06, 2009 at 01:06 PM
OT.... I finally had the baby! It's a girl! Oct 3 - 6lbs 11 oz, 20.5 in.
I posted my birth story at the end of the recent thread about "How do you know when you're about to have a baby?"
@Cloud & Nej - thinking of you & hoping for some news soon!
Posted by: hush | October 06, 2009 at 01:46 PM
I took the first class. I confessed at the time it was more about yelling at my dog and horse than about yelling at my kid (now almost 2). I realized at the time that the horse/dog yelling was just a pressure valve to release tension around trying to be a perfectly patient mama around my son. I knew all that going into the class, so I was hoping to use the class to reduce the yelling/anger at creatures who were not the true targets of my frustration.
Anyhow, the class was useful in helping me to untangle all the bits and pieces of my triggers, the larger situation, stress management, etc, etc, etc. The biggest help, as others have said, is simply making me more aware of my triggers and having a plan B that doesn't involve yelling. Also like others, I learned that I either don't yell as much as I thought I did, or that just taking the class really helped me to really reduce the yelling right off the bat.
A potential follow-up to this yelling class for me would be to spend time examining how repressing some of my frustration (aka as being super super patient) around my son might not be healthy for our relationship. But I don't think I take it too far, b/c he certainly gets to experience frustrated/angry mama sometimes too. And as he gets older, some of my emotions are much easier to express to him b/c he can *almost* grasp them at this point.
Sorry, no time to read others' comments here today, but I'll try to check in a bit later.
Posted by: pennifer | October 06, 2009 at 01:46 PM
We also just initiated a "star" chart for our morning routine. It's a white board with her morning check list and the days of the week. She gets to fill in the squares with whatever she wants when she does each thing.
DD is going through a hard transition to Kindergarten, which is especially evident in her morning tasks. and my yelling was getting out of control.
The chart has helped us both keep it in perspective.
Of course, the last item on the list (and the most difficult) is shoes--not so much putting them on, but taking them off, retying them, throwing them, because they just don't feel right! I hate shoes.
Posted by: blue | October 06, 2009 at 01:53 PM
Congratulations hush!!!
Posted by: mom2boys | October 06, 2009 at 01:56 PM
Congrats Hush!
Posted by: blue | October 06, 2009 at 01:58 PM
Congrats to Hush!
Posted by: paola | October 06, 2009 at 02:02 PM
Congrats hush. I had to go read it, and it sounds pretty good - even if you felt it.
Posted by: SarcastiCarrie | October 06, 2009 at 02:24 PM
Congratulations Hush! (And Hush family!)
Posted by: Slim | October 06, 2009 at 02:34 PM
Ep took the class, but I don't know that he has time to respond. There was good stuff to think about in there, at least. I looked over his shoulder, but the pacing was too fast for me - I needed more time between (like every-other day or something) to digest and try out. Different personalities will need different stuff (the glitches will totally stress out any MBTI "J" preferences in the crowd - totally rubs them the wrong way!). Moxie is a P, methinks... ;)
My triggers:
The 15th interruption of dinner or bathroom time or that phone call from my sister for something they could do for themselves or just reporting something that happened... AAAHHHHHH!
Shoe refusal used to torque me, but then I realized that it was a sensory issue. It still bugs me a bit, especially when it involves sobbing endlessly over the problem. Louder and louder and louder, too. AAAAHHHH! STOP!
The timing issue - them taking longer to get done with their feelings than I want them to, than I 'need' them to (like it has anything to do with me??), than I can cope with today, whatever. Get over it already! Or, uh, sorry, trying again... I hear you, I can tell this is important to you... uh, wait, how about, Would you like me to hold you? AAH! DON'T SCREAM AT ME I'M TRYING TO HELP! crud, wait, that was totally the wrong modeling... um, hold on (goes and grits teeth in the bathroom, takes three deep breaths, comes back), You are REALLY upset about this. You hate when that happens, it hurts your feelings. You're angry. You wanted to choose that for yourself. You don't like it when people help you without asking if you need help, because you know you are able, and it feels yucky when people treat you like you can't do it. You're no baby, you're big, and you can do it YOURSELF. (pant, pant... wait... was that it? Did I figure out the problem? YAY!) Can I give you a hug? Oh, good, great. Hug. And, uh, can you ... nevermind (I was going to say can you stop STOP STOP sobbing now? But I know you aren't there yet...). Oh, there, that's quieter. It's easier for me to hold you when you're not being quite so loud near my ear. I'll just sit here and hold you, now. (short pause) Honey? (wait, dang, that's MY schedule - please get off my lap so I can go do X - not yours... waiting. Waiting.) (wait, is that another layer of relaxation? yes? Maybe?) (tickle toes) I see toes! (giggles in return! YAY!) And another hug? All better? Yay! I'm glad. (And actually, then the getting down off my lap isn't nearly so important or valuable or necessary...)
And I *am* really glad that they're done... oy, that takes a long time! But it takes SO much longer when I fight it and try to get it to be done sooner. Shorter if I just do it right the first time! It just takes reminding myself that half my kids like to sit in their feelings for a while before they're done with them.
Uh, anyway. (wince)
Lately, the major stress points have been 'enough time not being asked for help in a row' (aka 'THREE MINUTES' - last night I had to re-start my favorite song on that CD EIGHT TIMES because I literally could not make it through the first minute of a 3-minute song without someone coming back into the kitchen with this or that or the other or a fight or a question or ... AAAAHHHH! ONE THREE MINUTE GAP IS ALL I'M ASKING! Er. Okay, my fault for having four kids, even if 'fault' is stretching it on the twins issue - can't control the ovulation, obviously. It'd have been different if I'd made it more than one minute in at any point in that cycle, I suspect... but some were literally 15 second gaps. AAAAHHHHHH! After a stressful day, with too much 'on' required, and unexpectedly doing dinner on my own, two kids sick and needy, one having trouble with homework, and a very big important and high-stress meeting right before dinner... GAH! Not the best setup for parenting without the YELLY mom coming out.)
Yay for hush, by the way! :)
Posted by: hedra | October 06, 2009 at 03:52 PM
triggers:
-the obliviousness of things in front of him
-the needing to take his own time when i needed to get somewhere, no matter how much time i built in-it seems we were/still are perpetually late
-the fighting, hitting, swiping of toys, all other deliberate actions that he knows are not acceptable.
-constant and persistent whining about something.
These don't always trigger the yelling but when i am running on empty or completely out of patience/ too full etc these are things that set me off... i am sure there are more but these are the one's that are consistent and i know happen all too often.
Posted by: z | October 06, 2009 at 04:32 PM
Wow, just knowing that most everyone has the same issues/triggers as I do with my 3 yo DS and 5 yo DD really lets a little ray of sunshine peek through my rumbling black cloudiness. Just this morning, I had the shoe issue (GAWD) and the needing to take his own time. In fact, @z, you pretty much wrote my triggers for me; thanks. I had to step into my bedroom, AKA my "safe room" to let off a little colorful rant while I let DS brush his own teeth with the glob of toothpaste he had put on (flouride poisoning-YAY!) after scraping my pea-sized toothpaste dot into the germy sink. Great.
Posted by: Julieta | October 06, 2009 at 04:37 PM
Congratulations on your new blessing Hush!
Posted by: Sharon aka Mommie Mentor | October 06, 2009 at 06:22 PM
My DD is almost 3 and is very verbal and expressive. She has always had a big vocabulary, and is a nonstop talker.
I am most triggered when *I* forget that she is still two months away from her third birthday, and although she uses words like "accelerate, "balance," "engage," and "superficial," she is seriously immature.
So when she is acting normally, like someone her age, but using big words, I forget. I ask her to sit down, or to stop putting her stuffed horsie on the dog, please, or to PUT THAT GLASS DOWN RIGHT NOW, YOUNG LADY ...
Needless to say. I always feel like a schmuck when I yell at my child for being a (relatively well-behaved) child.
Posted by: Erika | October 06, 2009 at 08:16 PM
congrats hush!
i've been debating signing up for the class but it sounds like it might be too quick for me too.
but otherwise, i'm feeling much more normal having read these comments!
Posted by: ramy | October 06, 2009 at 08:27 PM
@Erika: Me too on the big vocabulary/unrealistic expectations syndrom. Yeesh.
My triggers:
• feeling ignored, unheard, or unheeded
• judgement from myself or others
• stress and anxiety
• and fatigue
I didn't exactly *yell* tonight, but I did get frustrated and express my frustration and not be particularly kind or loving. It was a rough one. Finally toward the end of bathtime, I just said "I don't care, I don't want to have any more debating or arguing. Just accept what I say". I told her to wash her feet, she wanted to argue about whether she had to, and I simply wouldn't let her. She couldn't STAND it. She cried, she had to tell me what she was going to tell me, and I just wouldn't let her. I couldn't take it any more.
Finally, after she was out of the tub, she did tell me (If there's something really lightly on your foot, and you swish it in the water, it DOES come off Mama). She was so sad, she said she tried really hard not to say it and she just couldn't help it. Argh. The thing is I knew it was true. She kind of *couldn't* help it.
This is a bigger issue, and I don't know how to address it, but I knew tonight that I could NOT tolerate any more debating.
Posted by: maria | October 06, 2009 at 09:47 PM
Congrats, hush! You did it. I know it wasn't easy, but I am very envious.
No VBAC for me. I go in for my C-section on Sunday morning. Am trying my best not to duplicate the feelings/experience from the first C. Because asking your husband if he's sure that the baby you're nursing is actually yours because you don't recognize him is a really, really shitty feeling.
Posted by: nej | October 06, 2009 at 10:02 PM
My triggers:
1-Being sick
2-Being overly sleep deprived
3-DS resisting diaper changes for the nth time, and almost flinging himself off the changing table (usually this has to be in combo with 1 or 2 for me to yell)
4-Being very hungry
And when these all happen on the same day, it's not pretty!
The biggest trigger for me has to be sickness. Especially since I can't just dope myself up (still BFing). I'm a miserable sick person and have little patience when my head is pounding, my nose is running, and I generally feel like crap. Add sleep deprivation to that and it's a bad, bad combo. There's usually tension in the house at that point between DH & I as I'm not so diplomatic when I'm annoyed about something. And so, if any of the usual DS related annoyances start up (see number 3) the yelling is triggered.
Very long sessions of trying to get DS to sleep used to drive me crazy. (That feeling of being trapped in the room is definitely crazy-making material). But those have minimized a lot in the last months, if not disappeared altogether. DS' bad getting to sleep nights are so few & far between now that I usually have the patience to help him through them.
Luckily yelling hasn't cropped up too much so far. (Which is amazing considering I come from a yelling family, and I screamed a lot when I was a kid - mostly when I was really angry about something and couldn't express that anger). Mostly now it's the frustrated kind of yelling that's happened (i.e. raising my voice, but not necessarily to the scary point...or so I think).
But once recently, after a really bad night of no sleep, a cranky DH, house maintenance issues (we had no water for 24 hrs), and a rambunctious kid, I totally lost it. DH & I had gotten into a spat. He left the house to pick up something for the repair for the water. I was exhausted & screamed at DS that 'No.You.Can.Not.Have.That.It's. Dangerous.' I think the batteries had fallen out of the remote. I was so angry & upset, I was shaking. I immediately, crying, called DH and asked him to come home because I couldn't take it anymore. Still crying I apologized to DS for losing it. Not my proudest parenting moment. I know I can have intense emotions, so I've been fairly aware of not going to the scary place, and trying to manage the triggers that bring me there. But sometimes, things just collide and the best laid plans still fail. I imagine this will always be a work in progress.
@Hush, Congratulations! Looking forward to reading your birth story.
Posted by: the milliner | October 06, 2009 at 10:11 PM
Oh, and to get back on topic, I don't yell. I come from a really violent childhood and while the first year of DS's life was really rough for me (I yelled! I yelled at the dog! I yelled at my DH! I yelled at the baby! for heaven's sake, I yelled at the baby), I've read tons of books, read tons of AskMoxie posts, read a lot of Moxie-itte blogs and have been able to identify and come to terms with a lot of my personal triggers, which were really just expressions of childhood traumas. Sure, he does crap that pisses me off, but I b/c of everything I've learned I can remind myself that he's 2. He's a mad scientist exploring, pushing, creating, experiencing and I am sometimes the professor and sometimes the lab rat. And if that fails, we go outside for some fresh air. Amazing what fresh air does for us.
That being said, I am a bit unconventional in my ways and avoid lots of common struggles by approaching them in different ways until I find something that works. My 2 yr old was refusing to put shoes on to get out of the house. Fine. I would grab a pair of his shoes and put them in the car with us. When we got to our destination, I would give him the option of putting on shoes and having the freedom to walk, run, etc or not putting on shoes and being confined to the shopping cart, stroller, swing, whatever. It only took a few times and now we never fight about shoes. Because the day he chooses not to put on shoes is the day his life sucks. He hates being confined. When he wanted to get out of the cart, I was very empathetic. I heard his pain. I knew the agony of his suffering. But what could I do? He didn't have shoes on. Them are the rules. I knew that day that our trip to the grocery store was going to be a short one. And so I prepared myself not to shop, but instead to help him learn a lesson in consequences. Same with putting on a shirt - you don't have to, but let me know when you're cold. Didn't take long the first time (although I was in a vile mood and made him wear my scarf for a bit because I didn't feel like getting his shirt) and guess what! Hasn't fought the need for a shirt since. Might not like the shirt I pick out, but that's easily remedied, unless Favorite Giant Excavator Shirt is in the wash. Then it's boohoo for everyone.
I will say that the one thing I haven't come to terms with is when he is cruel to the animals. Luckily, this stage has passed, but for a while there, I was so distraught with the cat-tail-pulling and the dog-smacking. I don't know if it makes me uncomfortable seeing mean in him or if it's childhood related. Should probably figure that out before #2 gets to that stage.
Posted by: nej | October 06, 2009 at 10:56 PM
@ the milliner- very long sessions of getting DS to sleep is definitely a trigger for me. Like what he then needs is someone yelling at him to go to sleep! Ugh. Now at least I go and yell into a pillow or something, and not at him. At this point I am pretty much under control when it is just one kid, but a trigger for me is when both boys (twins) are whining or yelling. I just feel so helpless in that situation and almost like I need to yell to be heard above all the noise.
I've had a lot of success with natural consequences like what nej describes. Not dressed? Well, I'm going to feed the cats without you. "Hurry, getting dressed now!"
Posted by: suzanna | October 07, 2009 at 12:29 AM
The long bed times also are my trigger for yelling. And when I finally do yell is when he finally goes to sleep, so it's like we're in this horrible pattern now where, as suzanna said, it's like the shouting is required for him to go to sleep. Just taking it one night at a time at the moment. Every day is another chance to get it right (at least that's what gets me up in the morning).
Posted by: Mella | October 07, 2009 at 12:37 AM
@ Maria - isn't that a tough one? I don't want to lower my expectations, because I like setting the bar high for her. Plus I know kids are capable of understanding way more than we think they do. So I don't know how to change things, but it does bite me in the ass sometimes!
Just remembered my other huge trigger: my own chronic pain. I was thinking of my daughter's behavior, but all of a sudden I realized what gets me the most. It's when my pain flares up and I don't realize it. You get so used to chronic pain that it just seems normal. But if there is a reason for it to be exacerbated (e.g., playing in the sandbox, carrying groceries, fatigue), I really have a short fuse. When I just can't handle the pain, I lash out. Then I realize what is happening, take some pain-relieving measures, and I can start to chill. Usually the chilling happens way too late, though.
Posted by: Erika | October 07, 2009 at 01:51 AM
@nej, I hope this one goes well. I have talked to some moms about the concept of 'surgical birth' (experience) rather than 'c-section' (procedure) - it is still a birth, or can be... and a huge gift to knowingly sacrifice the wholeness of your body for the sake of your child.
And for reference, I didn't recognize Miss M at all, even though I recognized all my other kids, including her sister. She was just a total stranger to me. And that was my best birth, fabulous. That feeling in combination with trauma might have colored the acceptableness of that stranger-who-are-you? sensation differently. Just wanted to say that sometimes it isn't the trauma per se that creates that 'um, who are you again?' feeling. Sometimes that is just the way it is. I KNEW each of the others, like an old friend coming home. So it was rather a strange feeling to not recognize Miss M whatsoever, and somewhat alrming in contrast to her twin sister, who I KNEW the second I saw her. I could physically recognize Miss M within a few days without that being a shock, but it was not until she was walking that I felt I had that deep resonance with her (bonding was earlier, but still that 'KNOWING' was not there, that kind of soul-deep recognition). I tried not to feel shitty about the difference between one and the other, and just worked harder to get to know Miss M... consequently I now know her better than Miss R. Oy.
Anyway, good luck on Sunday.
Posted by: hedra | October 07, 2009 at 07:23 AM
Continuing the off topic:
A while back, this link was posted to my ICAN group for those who want a more "natural" cesarean birth experience
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/dec/03/health.medicineandhealth
The trick here would be finding a care provider willing to do this (and really, any planned necessary cesarean should be like this)
Posted by: bethp | October 07, 2009 at 09:47 AM
Great news, Hush! Congratulations!
My main triggers are... well, me! Like, if I'm hungry, or tired or I'm feeling too rushed. This drives me crazy, because I can see how it makes me inconsistent with my kids. What I mean is, instead of yelling over the shoe issue consistently, I may yell about any old thing, INconsistently. So I need to focus on myself. I really appreciate what Kate said, upthread—about having a right to lose my patience. I think maybe culturally we have issues with showing anger—like it’s wrong to feel angry. Whathisname—last name Gottman, a marriage counselor and author, has done some really amazing studies on marriages and he found that what most accurately indicates that a relationship will not survive is the emotion of contempt, not anger. As in, when couples express contempt toward each other in therapy sessions, it’s a red flag for him. But expressing anger is not, per se. So with my partner and my children, I’m pretty vigilant about not speaking contemptuously. That said, reckless anger isn’t an awesome thing, and I don’t condone it. When I feel pressed, I try to stop and breathe and eat something. And if I do yell, I apologize, always.
Posted by: Rudyinparis | October 07, 2009 at 11:10 AM
@nej, more and more mothers are being "allowed" to do skin to skin and even breastfeed in the operating room while the doctors perform the repair. if that feels right to you, you might ask your OB and anesthesiologist
Posted by: momofthree | October 07, 2009 at 11:33 AM
i raise my voice when i get bit (by the teething two year old). :(
Posted by: sasha | October 07, 2009 at 12:07 PM
@hush - Congratulations!!! I can't wait to go read your birth story and I hope to hear more about the baby over time!
It turns out my biggest trigger is when the 2.5 yo hits something (or someone) near the baby (almost 4 months old now). In fact, the hitting gets to me always, but I have been mostly calm until it happens right near the baby. Then, I scream. But I'm not 100% regretful of it, since I want her to get just how much I mean it when I say that we don't hit in our house.
And another trigger is when the baby is crying loudly or fussing incessently and won't stop even though I'm trying to get him changed and get us both ready for breastfeeding or putting him to bed. I'm usually tired and hungry when I yell at him at those times. I hate that, cause he's just a little baby and he doesn't know.
I also have been known to yell during the marathon sessions of getting the kids to bed. URG! I get tense just thinking about those.
I have other things that get me mad, but I usually express my frustrations in ways other than yelling. Usually.
@SarcastiCarrie - I think the picture chart sounds like a great idea! I've been trying to do it verbally with my girl. (What do we do for our bedtime routine? First we go potty. Then we wash our hands. Then we brush our teeth!) But I think having pictures would really help.
@blue and hedra - I was like that with shoes when I was a kid. I'm sure it drove my mom crazy. Her life was much easier when they came out with velcro shoes--although even then it wasn't always easy to make just right. As an adult, I am now realizing that I had/have some sensory issues. Not enough to say I have any sort of disorder.
Shoes were one area of real sensitivity, and it really would feel so bad that I would. not. leave. the house unless they felt right. I hope your girl gets over the shoe issue soon!
@Erika and maria - I believe that is an issue my husband has with our very verbal child. It's so hard when they seem older than they are!
@neg - Good luck! My second c-section was just a ton easier than my first (and I even tried for a VBAC so had labored again prior to both of them). I hope yours goes better! Oh, and I love this: "I am sometimes the professor and sometimes the lab rat." I'm going to have to remember that!
Posted by: caramama | October 07, 2009 at 01:32 PM
@Kate and Rudyinparis - That reminds me of what my PPD therapist said (this was back after having my first). I was telling her about a rough morning and how I yelled at my then 6 month old and how it made me feel awful. She asked what was so wrong about yelling? I said that I didn't want to be a parent who yelled. She said, and I quote because I'll never forget, "So what if you are a mom who yells? Your kids will just think, 'Sometimes Mom yells.'" I've struggled with that thought a lot. It is okay if I yell sometimes, but I am more comfortable expressing my anger and frustrations in a different way. But is that me or our society/culture or due to childhood issues or expectations I have or others have of me or what? Do I want to be a Mom Who Yells? And, I think most importantly to me, will my kids really be okay with the idea that "sometimes Mom yells."
Hmmm. Things to keep thinking about. And I will definitely keep any contempt out of my tone and deal with issues around that straight on!
Posted by: caramama | October 07, 2009 at 01:40 PM
"He's a mad scientist exploring, pushing, creating, experiencing and I am sometimes the professor and sometimes the lab rat."
For real. And I love coming here and being reminded of these things so I can step back and enjoy these moments and the process. It's pretty amazing.
Posted by: mom2boys | October 07, 2009 at 01:42 PM
@ caramama - thanks for sharing that comment from your PPD therapist, I really appreciate that. I think, for me, I'm not uncomfortable with occasionally yelling at my son. My mom yelled and I don't think it traumatised me at all, it actually just taught me that yelling isn't a big deal and we can all hug and move on minutes later. What scares me, and what I just feel terrible about and hate about myself, is when I have raged at my toddler son. He's so small and I have really let the RAGE out. It was more than yelling, it was scary, and he didn't deserve it. I am sure I will yell at him many times over the year, but I hope and pray that I never rage at him again.
Posted by: sarah | October 07, 2009 at 03:44 PM
Sarah--EXACTLY. Nail on the head there.
Posted by: Rudyinparis | October 07, 2009 at 04:01 PM
My number one trigger is when my son decides to start throwing things on the floor or emptying out drawers/bins just as we are leaving the house/finishing cleaning up the kitchen after dinner/trying to get dressed. I guess I see it's usually his way of saying "Hey, I need some attention, I'm having trouble with this transition" but it still drives me bonkers sometimes.
I took the yelling class, and just thinking about the yelling for several days in a row help increase my awareness and lessen it. That being said, I still yell sometimes and like others have said, I'm trying to accept the fact that sometimes I yell and my kid will still be fine. More important is how I handle the yelling afterward--the thing that always got me about my Mom's yelling is that she acted like it was the absolute right and proper way to behave. Never apologized, never considered that anger wasn't the best teaching tool.
I also do sometimes put myself in time-out when I feel myself losing it. Like last night for instance. DH is on a week long business trip and I'm a bit low on sleep, so it was a perfect storm as DS starting pulling stuff off of the counters as I was cleaning up after dinner (he had "helped" me clean up, so it had taken twice as long as usual and I was *almost* done!). I suddenly got really upset and realized I was about to lose it. I said, "I need a time out! I'm so mad I have to sit down on the step for a minute!" I sat down and covered my face with my hands. He came over to me, laid his head on my lap and said, "You don't go timeout, Mommy. I need you."
*sigh* Exactly.
Posted by: Jessica | October 07, 2009 at 04:36 PM
jessica, from my point of view that was the perfect thing to say & do. you acknowledge to yourself & him that you're mad & need to back away.
my son just doesn't have the language skills yet (almost 3 but delayed) for yelling to have *any* effect on him. he can barely keep up with slow conversation and is lost in preschool, so loud + fast = charlie brown's teacher. rage might get a result, but like sarah, that's not what i'm going for. and thank goodness, it's not usually what i'm feeling.
Posted by: marci | October 07, 2009 at 09:53 PM
first, congrats, hush! so happy for you all!
second, i don't know, my triggers are my own stress building up to blowing point, basically, and losing control over whatever situation is going down the toilet currently. i can really identify with so many of you who freak out over the toddler food-throwing, the oppositional 4-year-old, the WHINING...sigh.
i think the rage that builds up b/c of my own stress is a valid emotion, but i don't want to vent it on my kids and scare the crap out of them. i was scared of my mom, a lot. i don't want my kids to be scared of me, but i do want them to listen to me and take me seriously, damnit (stop pushing your brother, you're going to knock him down, it's not safe, he's going to get hurt. WHY ARE YOU STILL DOING IT!!??) i just keep trying out new tools in the old parenting toolbox and see what works.
my worst fear is that my kids are modeling this yelling from me (and don't get me wrong, my husband is known to yell at times, esp. at the kids, and he scares them too- the best thing we do for each other is be the voice of reason for each other in a bad situation and diffuse it quickly). the pnut screams at her brother when he does something that pisses her off- some of it may be normal 4 year old reaction to a stressful situation, but i'm willing to bet that a lot of it she is modeling from me. and the bean likes to yell too. ugh.
i know i need to chillax and just find better ways to handle my own stress, which will certainly cut down on my yelling over non-important things. and then , find better ways to discipline when yelling just isn;t going to cut it.
Posted by: pnuts mama | October 08, 2009 at 12:42 AM
Had another experience today that was a bad one for yelling. She has said this a few times before, but when I yelled tonight, she started crying and said, "Mommy you scared me!" Wow, talk about mommy guilt. Ice cream for dinner, kiddo?
I tell myself that everyone yells, and that I'm not bad because I lose it every once in a while. I apologize, and my DD hopefully learns that sometimes you yell, and always you apologize.
I do remember how scary it was as a kid to get yelled at - my parents weren't yellers, so it was hugely scary for me to see my parents lose it. I wonder if that is why I'm such a conflict-avoider as an adult. I almost never saw an outlet for anger and/or frustration, so to see it on rare occasion was very unsettling.
Posted by: Erika | October 08, 2009 at 01:11 AM
I have a 6yo and a 2yo. The 6yo is pretty attached and will rarely go off on his own to do things. Most of the time I just roll with things...
But when he follows me around the house when I'm trying to deal with the cranky toddler and asks me for stuff when, for example, I'm trying to change the cranky toddler's diaper....oooh, I just lose it.
I'm pleased that I figured this out and most of the time I now can say something like, "This is not a good time!". But I slip sometimes.
@caramama - Years ago I saw a therapist who also 'gave me permission' to slam doors or yell. It was liberating.
Posted by: Lee | October 08, 2009 at 10:08 AM
Watching your behavior modeled by a two year old can be really humbling and enlightening. I was mad about something stupid over the weekend and yelled from my room at the back of the house. Later I watched Tate stand at my door and yell nonsense words and then turn and stomp away. He did this multiple times over the next day or so. Wow. There are behaviors I want to teach and that just isn't one of them. :(
Posted by: mom2boys | October 12, 2009 at 12:01 PM