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This is not at all a serious topic, but it seems like I've been hearing about it all over the place lately, so I thought people might be interested. The idea is funny lies you tell your children.
Years ago, one of the moms in my playgroup wanted her daughter to drink soy milk, but her daughter refused to try it until she told her it was elephant milk. It's been 5 years, and I'm still laughing at that.
Have any of you lied to your kids on a scale like that? What did you tell them, and did they believe it or see through you?
A more serious follow-up is asking if it's ever acceptable to lie to a child, even along the lines of an "elephant milk" lie. If so, what are the boundaries you'd draw?
I'm still working through this one myself. I think lies that can never be found out and that help a situation are OK (like saying it's time for bed when a kid is overtired, even if official bedtime is not close). But on the other hand, it does seem to be a slippery slope.
What do you think?
it's the heart of the matter to me:
drinking elephant milk and pushing bedtime up are done in the authority of care.
lying about something in anger, impatience, frustration, or to manipulate- although human- is not something i would practice regularly or make habit of.
behavior is caught not taught.
i need to watch what i am teaching my kids.
Posted by: abcd | October 08, 2009 at 07:29 AM
I suppose - calling all lunch meat Turkey because DD will totally eat any of it that we've given her and say its yummy but if you call it say - ham - she'll say I don't like that and not eat.
Posted by: Melissa | October 08, 2009 at 08:12 AM
My mother told us that she was so tired all of the time because she had another family in China. At night, after my brother and I fell asleep, she would crawl through a hole in our backyard and spend time with her Chinese family. She sent her pet dragon to sleep in her bed here and to protect us. She sent a bear to China to sleep in her Chinese bed and protect her Chinese kids.
I can see how this story might backfire with some kids, but my brother and I ate it up. My mother knew us well enough to be sure that we would enjoy the story. We both sort of knew it was a joke, and we played along and helped embroider the story. But we half believed it.
I guess it comes down to the intent of the lie. My mother made things up to amuse and entertain us, and honestly, to deflect questions and encourage good behavior. But they were always stories and lies she would admit to if questioned seriously. As far as I know, she never lied to us in a way that she would spend time covering up. That is where lies and stories move from harmless to dangerous and manipulative.
Posted by: eep | October 08, 2009 at 08:16 AM
our little one is too small for lies, but dh and I joke that rain comes because some large person up there has a very big bucket and a colander. I imagine the little one will probably think that's where rain comes from until he's old enough to learn differently.
Posted by: songbird | October 08, 2009 at 08:29 AM
There is also allowing a misunderstanding to remain. My son played t-ball in the spring and when fall ball came up in conversation for his older brother, he commented sadly that since there wasn't t-ball in the fall, he wouldn't be able to play. Well, he was sort of right. They don't do t-ball because the kids move up to the next level. His dad and I had already decided that kindergarten was all the activity he needed this fall and we were trying to figure out how to tell him he wasn't allowed to play fall ball, expecting him to pitch a fit. He took care of it for us and we didn't correct him. I considered it a lucky break, but I'm also a bit uncomfortable when he sees kids his age at the ballpark. If he calls me on it, I'd have to tell the truth.
Giving foods another name isn't a big issue- naming items is pretty random anyway. Melissa, all my kids eat is "ham" for lunchmeat!
Posted by: Jill in Atlanta | October 08, 2009 at 08:29 AM
My parents have tried telling my daughter she was having ravioli when lasagna or stuffed shells were being served. (Once they are cut up, they do look similar). But it only worked once, after that the kid was too smart to "fall for it" and the thought of lying about it gives my butterflies in my stomach.
So I have a child that will gobble up ravioli, but will pick at lasagna and stuffed shells. Oh well. Someday she won't be a toddler anymore and she'll eat all three. :-)
Posted by: Amy M | October 08, 2009 at 08:37 AM
You know that brightly-painted truck/van, that drives slowly down residential streets in the summer, playing music?
Yeah, that's the "music truck."
J is 2, and eventually he'll figure it out and we'll own up to it, but for now, it's a convenient bypass around a sure-fire meltdown.
Posted by: Catherine | October 08, 2009 at 08:38 AM
@Catherine: We live across the street from a pool and the Music Truck visited hourly every summer for FIVE YEARS before my son came to me one day and announced, "Did you know the Music Truck sells... ice cream?!?!" We still call it the Music truck though!
I know I've never lied in a large way, but I now suspect I've parented with many silly little ones like these. I can't see how they hurt; they become part of the child's life-myth story. I believed that my friend's tv showed lots of channels and that mine only showed PBS. Harm done? Not at all. If you're going to worry about these, you have to get into the Santa/Tooth Fairy issue. I believe that these "lies" enrich my children's lives with fantasy, but I understand the perspective others have that lies are lies.
Posted by: Jill in Atlanta | October 08, 2009 at 08:48 AM
My family did the sort-of-joking types of lie that eep was talking about, and I think it worked fine. It was fun, but there was no horror when we realized it was a lie because we'd always suspected it wasn't completely true. I remember asking my mother when I was about 3 or 4 if "Santa Claus really existed, I mean REALLY?" The answer was always "of course he does" but said in such a way that I knew she wasn't serious.
My sister is very good with the quick useful lies that hurt no one and prevent tears. Her response to her kids' complaint that the Easter Bunny pays much more for their friends' teeth than for their own was that "the Easter Bunny knows that we don't need the money as much". Way to turn a complaint into a reason to feel grateful!
Harmful lies from my childhood were ones where my father got us to go along with a lie he was telling. For instance when we'd take the ferry it was cheaper for kids under a certain age, so he would lie and say we were, and we knew we had to go along with that. That seems kind of a harmless way to save a big chunk of change, but the anxiety we felt about it (knowing he'd get in trouble if we accidentally told the truth) was not fair to us kids.
Posted by: HappyMama | October 08, 2009 at 09:01 AM
In general, I don't lie to my kids and we try to teach that we don't lie to family members. We always tell them that lying to D and I is one of the worst things they can do, and that it is always better if they are up front with us, even if they think we will be mad or if they did something wrong.
That being said, I don't volunteer information about things that I don't think they need to hear about. Also, I try to remember to only answer the questions they ask me and not go into deeper explanations of tough topics that I don't think they really need to worry about if they accept my first simplified yet truthful answer. And I am sure I have given my share of "elephant milk" answers over the years.
The only one I can realy think of that has come back to bite me recently is my longtime habit of telling them when they wake up at an unacceptable time that it is "the middle of the night" and that they need to go NOW because it is NOT MORNING YET(even if it was really 5:56am). The other day I overheard my 3 telling my 6 that he had woken up in the middle of the night again. She very mattter of factly told him that he did not, he had just woken up early, that I hate when they wake up early because "you know how CRANKY Mama is in the morning" and that I lie to them when I say it is the middle of the night. (My 3 seemed unfazed by this, but my 6 was using a tone that implied it was very bad that I was LYING.) She went on to say that the middle of the night is actually 12pm and that the person in the family who is awake sometimes in the "real middle of the night" is me. She stopped just short of drawing the conclusion that maybe the reason why I am cranky at 5:56am, is that I am frequently up at midnight! Anyway, all so true, and I was so busted. I had a little talk with her about figures of speech after that, and she just said "I know, Mom" and I swear rolled her eyes at me. Did I mentiont hat she is SIX!
Posted by: Jessica | October 08, 2009 at 09:05 AM
I've always been of two minds on this. On one hand, I think lying to your kids sooner or later destroys your credibility. Example: I remember asking my Mom at around 7 years old why our two neighbors (a lesbian couple) slept in the same bed. My Mom totally punked out and claimed one of the women had a bed somewhere else in the house.
So...for "real life" questions, I try hard not to lie, even if the topic is a little deep for my 5 year old or difficult for me.
OTOH- what is childhood without fantasy? As much as I hate lying, only an ogre would destroy a little kid's belief in magic. At 5 my daughter is starting on her own to question some of these "lies". My strategy has been if she asks, "Mama, are fairies real or just imaginary?" I go with, "I don't know...I've never SEEN one in real life...but that doesn't mean there aren't any. It certainly would be cool if there was a secret fairy forest just accross out street!"
Posted by: MG | October 08, 2009 at 09:06 AM
Oh, the Santa Lie season is upon us! I am still playing it up with the older because of the younger. I don't feel great about it but I'd like the little one to at least get through preschool with that illusion intact, and the big one cannot help blurting things out. He just can't.
As to "bedtime" lies--hey, if they are tired, it IS bedtime. I don't consider that a fib at all. I put the older one in bed fully clothed 90 min before "usual" bedtime this week because he was sitting crosslegged on the floor, rocking to the wall. He didn't need to brush his teeth as much as he needed sleep, pronto. I thought he was getting sick. He may have been, but he isn't now.
Posted by: MemeGRL | October 08, 2009 at 09:07 AM
When we switched the two year old to a big boy bed we let him pick and he picked a red race car bed but it was toddler size and he kept rolling out of it in the middle of the night but he really, really loved it. So, we decided to return it for a bigger one and he was rather upset about where his racecahbed was going so I told him it needed to go bye bye to get "fixed". It needed to get bigger and blue and then it would be all better. He was totally fine with that and now loves "the blue one".
When the older boy was about five his grandmother told him you could catch a bird if you sprinkled salt on his tail. He spent a good part of that day running around the back yard with a salt shaker.
Posted by: mom2boys | October 08, 2009 at 09:10 AM
My husband and in-laws have a habit of describing any and all meat to my two-year-old as "chicken." They use the English word when they use French for just about everything else, and it leads to some rather funny dinner table exchanges, like "Tu veux plus du chicken?" and "Ooo, c'est bon le chicken!" Recently they've been calling some things just "meat," but it still drives me nuts. And I'm worried that the day he learns he may be eating a fluffy lamb or friendly cow from some storybook will be especially traumatic.
It isn't meant as a lie so much as a simplification, and a way of avoiding the two-year-old fear of All Things New And Unfamiliar. I'm proud of my son, because he's never, ever duped. We can give any food any sort of label or endorsement we like, he's making up his own mind whether to put it in his mouth.
Generally speaking, I don't like lying or misrepresentation, especially around food. I figure it is hard enough as an adult to figure out what's in the things we put on our plates, I might as well be as honest with my child as I can. So I'd have to say that I wouldn't try to pull an "elephant milk" on my kid... even if it is pretty darn funny.
Posted by: parisienne mais presque | October 08, 2009 at 09:41 AM
My daughter went through a phase where she claimed to only like chicken. Fortunately she liked lots of varieties of chicken, including salmon chicken, pork chop chicken, and steak chicken. She would say "what are we having?" and I would say "salmon" and she would say, "but I only like chicken!" and I would say "well, this is a special kind of chicken, called SALMON chicken, or salmon for short." And she would love it. She wasn't a picky eater, just a picky identifier!
I also once made a pasta casserole of some kind, and my other daughter was going through a period when she believed she hated "casserole" so I told her I had made a special new recipe called "Super Spaghetti Surprise" and she gobbled that right up.
I"m with the other posters who think that a certain amount of fantasy etc. is important, as long as you fess up when actually asked, and be truthful about real-life questions when you can.
My older daughter is loving being "in on" the Santa secret....although I will also comment that since she is still losing teeth, I have told her that the Tooth Fairy doesn't leave money for that don't believe in her, so she still plays along with that one too. (I like the suggestion above for how to handle comments about other people's tooth fairies leaving more money, etc.--would also work for Santa!!)
Posted by: giddy | October 08, 2009 at 09:55 AM
I rename food all-the-time. Soy Milk, Mixed Milk, Mommy's Milk (which is skim, not the kind I feed to the baby), little broccoli trees, red beans, white beans, black beans, peanut butter, noodles.
As for middle-of-the-night and bedtime...We don't have a set clock time bed time. Bed time is when I say it is. And middle-of-the-night is anything before 5:45 on weekdays and 7 on weekends (or as my 4-year old says, "Seven-zero-zero".
Posted by: SarcastiCarrie | October 08, 2009 at 09:58 AM
When I was a kid, my mom told me that children weren't allowed to talk in the grocery store. It worked for a little while, but then I realized that other kids were talking, and eventually figured it out. I'm sure it made grocery shopping easier for her, but not sure I'll try it on my own kids.
Posted by: amanda | October 08, 2009 at 09:59 AM
Red Kidney beans were renamed at our house to "tooting beans".... she ate 2 helpings of it!
Posted by: Shalini | October 08, 2009 at 10:18 AM
I really hate lying, and I guess I'm lucky because I've got a kid who really responds well to being told the truth - at least so far.
The Elephant Milk story is awesome, and I'm not really convinced it is a lie - at least not by my definitions. I guess it depends on exactly how it is phrased, but I think most kids have an appreciation for fantasy and make-believe, and like to play along with it, so if you use that "hey, this is exciting!@!" tone of voice, I think many of them know that what you're doing is having fun and playing...rather than trying to make them believe something that isn't true.
Ages ago, one of my cousins decided he wanted to be vegetarian. The family was very supportive generally, if irritated, but elected to not inform him that pepperoni contained meat. To me this is a big problem. Telling your kid that all meats are "chicken" because they are picky about words? That's just redefining the word "chicken" and honestly, the kids know what is going on.
Also - if a kid is overtired...then by definition it is time for bed! It may not be an official "bedtime", but teaching people from an early age that they should go to bed when they are tired...seems like it can't be a bad thing.
So I think what I'm getting at with this rambling is that lying and fantasy are two completely different things - as long as your child is able to cope with the difference. Lying is going to make you lose credibility in the long run, and make kids trust less.
Posted by: TodayWendy | October 08, 2009 at 10:31 AM
All red meat is steak.
'cause my kids like steak. But not London Broil, and not roast beef - only steak. So, eh, it's all steak.
My favorite lie, which is obviously a huge lie and nobody believes it WHATSOEVER is 'Mommy is not silly. Moms are not allowed to be silly. It's against the rules.' Cracks them up every time. I say it very very seriously, too. My best strict librarian mode ON.
We have been having huge issues, however, with the fairies thing. See, in our family mythology, fairies ARE real. My mom takes the kids out to look for fairies at the botanical gardens, the tooth fairy still brings money (wrapped in pretty foil with a little shell glued to the top of the packet - my mom made up all 20 for each kid at once, and we just have them in a jar hidden up high...)... and oh, dragons are real, too. Including to the almost-12-year-old. Santa is real. Interestingly, the Easter Spider is only real to the eldest and youngers - the middle (Mr B) figured it out two years ago, and was promptly initiated into the secret joy of making it real for someone else (he now helps us set up the web... no bunny at our house, a giant orange and green spider spins a web that looks remarkably like electric green and orange yarn through the livingroom that each kid has to wind up to get to their basket, bigger kids get longer strings).
Anyway, knowing you can make it real for someone else, bring in the magic, be part of that process, that's not too hard a transition for him. Only, he can't get there with fairies or Santa yet. My mom's house rule was we keep the magic a secret until people figure it out, and then they get to participate in creating the magic for someone else. It kept it moving full circle, so that it wasn't from 'cool, Santa is real' to 'aw, no such thing as Santa, waaahhh!' but from 'cool, Santa is real' to 'cool, *I* get to be Santa!'
Now, we'll see if that works. We've been talking about belief systems, provability/evidence, faith, and enchantment/wonder a fair bit to try to open up the discussion. Mr G is thoughtful about it, considering how to navigate his way through... but he refuses to let Mr B drop through that net at the same time, and encourages the continuing belief, there.
The things you didn't think would be issues... sigh. On the other hand, I firmly believed in fairies until part way into highschool, myself, whereupon I transitioned them into more of a mythology thing, still fun, not 'evidence-based' (hey, my theology isn't exactly evidence-based, either!). I just hope they make a similar transition as easily.
Posted by: hedra | October 08, 2009 at 10:39 AM
ZOMG! We have a music truck in our neighborhood too!!1!1
I try really hard to tell the truth mostly because I'm a horrible liar. Sometimes I'll try to reword things to avoid the meltdown etc.
Surprisingly, my 3 yr old daughter often INSISTS upon things that aren't true. For example:
Her: What are we having for dinner tonight?
Me: Pork chops, they are yummy!
Her: No, we're having chicken.
Me: Actually, we're having pork chops. You've had them before with apple sauce and you liked them.
Her: NO WE'RE HAVING CHICKEN!!!! (near tantrum boiling point)
Me: Yep, we're having chicken!
And off she happily goes while I roll my eyes behind her back.
Posted by: Melissa | October 08, 2009 at 10:42 AM
@Melissa, that's actually the issue with the fairies, with us - I can't even get CLOSE to suggesting that they're not REALLY real, because I get the huge tantrum that they ARE, they ARE, they've SEEN THEM.
Well, okay, then.
It ends up being a faith issue, to some degree, with us. Maybe not over dinner (call it what you want, the physical object is there and can be assessed directly), but theology and faith and the unseen... Fierce dedication to their personal theologies, and Do Not Cross them on those.
I've got a bunch of little pagans, I guess. ;)
Posted by: hedra | October 08, 2009 at 10:50 AM
At this age I think there are helpful lies. When a toddler is afraid of something or gets really upset by something, sometimes a silly lie does help and I do think it is harmless if you are really doing them no harm by it.
Example, my son requested a grilled cheese sandwich but he refused the cheddar which was by some strange happening the only cheese we had on hand. He was beginning to melt down and I wanted to avoid trying to reason with him. I immediately said, "Okay, how about orange cheese?" Opened the fridge and unwrapped the cheese, turned it sideways and said, "Look we have this yummy orange cheese!"
"Mama, I want that orange cheese in my sandwich."
Done.
Posted by: Shelley | October 08, 2009 at 11:05 AM
Funny lie that my coworker tells her 2 yo boy: When she was eating a popcicle that she didn't want to share with him because he was sick, she told him it was for girls. She apparently uses that for a lot of things she doesn't want him to have/do. Or she says it's medicine. Personally, I prefer telling my daughter it's for grown ups, because that is usually true and I don't like dividing things by gender when it's not necessary.
@Melissa - We have conversations just like that ALL THE TIME in our house with the 2.5 yo. Except lately she likes to say the word "actually," so she responds back to me, "Actually, we're having chicken!" Whatever, girl, whatever.
I like what some of you are describing as "lying" versus "fantasy." I like that distinction. I don't think we really lie to our kids so much as we joke around and play "pretend" and such. It's been amazing to watch her learn to pretend. Just last night we made friends with a couple of monsters and a couple of dragons and had them over for dinner!
As for naming foods, I generally try to use all-encompassing words if I think she's being "identification picky." So "pasta" and "meat" and "fruit" are all good ones.
Now you all may think I'm crazy, but even at my advanced age I'm not entirely convinced that there is no such thing as fairies or unicorns. At least, that they didn't once exist somewhere on this Earth. There is so much we are only starting to understand and using science to figure out. Therefore things that seem magical might actually have existed or been possible but unable to be explained by science at the time or even still. I guess I do still believe in magic, or at least that magic and mythical beings may exist/may have existed. Can anyone prove to me that those things didn't exist ever somewhere? If you can, then go ahead and lie to me. ;-)
Posted by: caramama | October 08, 2009 at 11:16 AM
Favourite lie from a neighbour: the ice cream truck plays music to tell everyone that they're out of ice cream. Still makes me laugh every time I hear an ice cream truck.
Posted by: ACJ | October 08, 2009 at 11:19 AM
Our stretching of the truth comes with the food, as with many other posters. My husband tends to say things like "This is white ham," about cheese if they are being picky and asking for ham. I am more likely to say, "This is *like* ham, and you eat it with ham sometimes." To me there's a difference between saying something *is* another thing rather than *like* another thing. But, they're the same 2-year-olds who saw stuffed grape leaves and proclaimed them hot dogs. ("They look like hot dogs, don't they? They're a little different," was my reply) They didn't eat them anyway, but they did try them.
Posted by: Clementine | October 08, 2009 at 11:33 AM
We also have a "music truck" in our neighbourhood.
And when one of my 2 year old DS's loud toys is getting on my nerves, I switch it off when he's not looking and then when he notices and gets upset I tell him the toy got tired and went "night-night". At which point he goes and gets a stuffie to sleep with the toy, and then all is right in the world.
Posted by: Jac | October 08, 2009 at 11:41 AM
Of course I meant that the TOOTH FAIRY buys teeth, not the Easter Bunny.
Posted by: HappyMama | October 08, 2009 at 11:44 AM
@ Melissa: My 3 year old boy does the same thing about just about anything. If I go along with what he's insisting I don't consider lying, I consider it keeping the peace, he'll find out the truth eventually and debating the type of truck or whether we have to turn left or right to pick up Daddy is just not worth arguing about.
As for other fibs, we do Easter Bunny and Santa and all that good stuff. I don't think those things are going to cause any lasting damage to his trust in me. He's a child and childhood should be filled with imagination and fantasy because lets face it, adulthood can totally suck as you learn more and more of the reality of goings on in the world.
Posted by: Nella | October 08, 2009 at 12:10 PM
I don't think we (adults)do actually lie much in this house ( except when it comes to vegetables!). My MIL, howveer, is only a slightly more prolific fibber than my 4.5 year old. She will constantly say 'Mummy's going to work', to my 2.5 year old whenever I leave DH with her, after I've actually told my daughter where I'm going. I honestly don't see the need for lying in this situation, especilly seeing my daughter would much rather stay home with granma than come to the dentist with me.
I do sometimes say I need the computer 'cos I'm working ( and not 'cos I want to read my favourite blogs or the newspaper). My kids must think I work a hell of a lot from home.
I used to lie a bit to get my kids to eat soup ( like the pumpkin soup only had pumpkin in it and no carrots or zucchini, which they hate) Now that they actually like it, I tell them what's in it and they are actually starting to request their favourites. Oh, and for anything green in food, I still pretty much tell them there is pesto in it.
Posted by: paola | October 08, 2009 at 12:16 PM
http://www.livescience.com/culture/090929-parents-lie.html
Posted by: shirky | October 08, 2009 at 12:23 PM
@shirky - That link didn't work for me. I'm not sure if it's my computer or the link.
Posted by: caramama | October 08, 2009 at 12:37 PM
Interesting new book out, NurtureShock (I confess I have not yet read it, but I am on hold for the audio once it arrives), that addresses the topic of lying. Here's an interview with the author on NPR (and an excerpt from the book on the bit about lying):
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112292248
Can't wait to read (okay, listen) to the whole thing.
Posted by: Mary | October 08, 2009 at 12:48 PM
My mother would tell my much younger brothers that she would be back in 5 minutes and then would be gone for 2 hours when I was watching them. That just seems like a mean lie to me.
On the other hand, when I asked my father what spontaneous combustion was he told me sometimes kids with messy rooms could spontaneously combust. I was old enough (and knew my father well enough) to know this was an exxageration at best, but I still find it amusing.
Posted by: Ck. | October 08, 2009 at 12:53 PM
I'm kind of in line with everyone else about the "real" lying. If my kids ask me something, I try my best to give them an age-appropriate honest answer. This came up when one of my son's asked me if he would die. Even though we haven't yet dealt wtih the whole death conversation, I still answered him with yes but that it is much later in his life when he is really old. I think I try to be honest rather than avoid - that goes with food too. I think it helps with establishing trust.
That said, our funniest lie recently was regarding Islands (a hamburger chain restaurant). My boys love that place and they would choose it every Friday for date night with their dad. Over time, my poor husband was so sick of Islands (their menu is limited) so we finally decided that Islands was being remodeled and so it wasn't going to be open for awhile. The boys compeltely bought it. When it came time to pick their date-night restaurant, they'd go on and on about how they couldn't go to Islands because it would be dusty and the trucks would be in the way. Eventually, we needed to take the boys to somewhere easy and cheap, so Islands was finished with their remodel at that point.
ACJ - thanks for the chuckle. Love that one.
Posted by: mo | October 08, 2009 at 01:10 PM
I think there's an art to being deliberately vague that can also be used effectively when discussing difficult subjects -- not exactly lying, but maybe not telling the whole truth. If the kid is developmentally ready for more information s/he will ask for it. I'm not saying I avoid telling my daughter hard truths, but for example: she asked once what happens if there's a car accident, if people get hurt. I said, "Most of the time, what happens is that the cars need to be fixed, and the people inside might be sore or need to go to the doctor." If she asks further, I'll tell her it can be much worse than that, but to volunteer that information seems unnecessarily anxiety-inducing.
Posted by: Shelley | October 08, 2009 at 01:14 PM
"Lies" I just realized I have told:
It is illegal to drink coffee before you are 18. And it tastes bad (and no, that's not chocolate in it).
You can't have a baby unless you are married.
You can't have wine until you're a grown-up.
Kids don't drive cars because they can't reach the pedals (but the real reason is they have the judgment of squirrels).
The car won't start unless you have your car seat buckled (which is kind of true since I won't start the car).
The library is closed today.
The grocery store was "all out" of whatever thing it was you wanted but I got you this awesome stalk of asparagus instead.
Posted by: SarcastiCarrie | October 08, 2009 at 01:15 PM
@Ck. - It wasn't until I was in college that I realized a "couple" meant two. My mom would always say she'd be ready in a couple of minutes... yet it wasn't two minutes. I always thought "couple" meant a few, not literally two. I wonder if your brothers think that 5 minutes means 2 hours. ;-)
@SarcstiCarrie - LOL!
Posted by: caramama | October 08, 2009 at 01:25 PM
I am already using the "it's still sleepy time" line with my 12 month old when she wakes up before 7 and she seems to understand it somewhat and will sometimes go back to sleep for another 1/2 hour or so. Love it.
Regarding the discussion of fantasy, we received a book gift ("Zoophabet") that shocked me by saying something like "U is for unicorn...but they aren't real" Where does a board book get off telling my baby that unicorns aren't real? The nerve of that publisher! What were they thinking?!?! I'm not one for throwing away books, but this one is probably headed for the recycle bin.
Posted by: Karen | October 08, 2009 at 01:37 PM
Just thought of another one...I try to call graham crackers "cookies" because so many baby books talk about cookies and I don't want her to experience the real thing yet.
Posted by: Karen | October 08, 2009 at 01:46 PM
Y'all are making me feel a lot better about the fairies and dragons thing... Thanks! :)
As for strategies about the tough questions we don't want to really delve into at whatever age they are, I find it VERY useful to ask them the same question back. So, when Mr G asked (at all of TWO years old) what God was, I scrambled and asked 'Hmm, what do YOU think God is?'
His answer was, 'God is everything, all together'.
So, hmm, maybe he was way more ready for a deeper answer than I thought! But I was unable to come up with a better one than that anyway. And we hadn't talked about God (or even been to church in his life) so... sometimes they surprise me/us. Asking the same tricky question back can be WAY better than trying to come up with an appropriate vagueness or inoffensive lie.
Posted by: hedra | October 08, 2009 at 01:49 PM
Food labels are definitely fluid in our house. Cookie and cracker are used interchangeably. Milk means anything white - soy, cow, hemp (that he's named yuck milk) - brown milk is chocolate hemp milk (that he likes - ha!). I don't make him eat things he doesn't like so I don't feel like I'm really lying when I'm just being lazy about terms.
I like pretend play and imagination. To me story telling isn't lying. That's the awesomeness of being around a child. Magic and wonder and what if.
Tate and I had a conversation on the way home a little after dark not long ago. On the way to the car we saw the moon. Hi moon. Once we were in the car, the clouds had covered the moon. Open clouds, he said. And then he yelled it. I told him he needed to ask the clouds nicely to move, yelling isn't anyway to get what you want. So he did - said open please clouds in a very nice voice. But they didn't move. So I said perhaps the clouds were sleeping since it was getting dark out and Tate goes to sleep when it's dark. And after a bit he said night night clouds sleeping, night night moon sleeping and was perfectly content the rest of the ride home.
Posted by: mom2boys | October 08, 2009 at 02:17 PM
@MG
OMG I'm an ogre. My 4.5 just asked me yesterday if if we used magic could we make something reappear. And I answer that there was no such thing as magic. Wupps!
Posted by: paola | October 08, 2009 at 02:40 PM
@caramama-
The reason this 'lie' was at the front of my mind was because during a recent trip to my mom's, I mentioned that I've been working on "right back" with my 16 month old (going through some tough seperation anxiety issues at the moment). And SHE said "well, don't tell him you'll only be gone a couple minutes and not come back for 3 hours or he'll never have any concept of time." Obviously, she feels like she's done lasting damage on my brothers, who are now 18 and 20.
Anyway, to me, a 'couple minutes' means running to the store for some milk and coming straight back, not a leisurely trip to the mall!
Posted by: Ck. | October 08, 2009 at 03:14 PM
I guess I'm one of those parents who tries never to lie to their kids. My son knows that I will be the tooth fairy and that Santa Clause is a fun story that grown-ups tell about a man who delivers presents, etc. I should add the caveat that we are Jewish so Santa isn't as much of a primary figure for us, but I'd still tell my kids the truth anyway.
This does not mean that I do not engage in pretend play, fantasy, or the joys of the imagination. In fact, I think it's pretty easy not to lie while still facilitating my children's active inner lives. For example, re: the tooth fairy, my son and I have discussed that when he loses a tooth I will come into his room in my daughter's tutu and waive a special wand, etc. and he just finds this imagery completely hilarious (and I'll do it too). I guess I'm of the mind that truthfulness leads to complete trust ant a basic respectfulness and that it doesn't have to mean that childhood becomes too literal and fantasy-free. That's just my particular perspective.
Posted by: Jamie | October 08, 2009 at 03:17 PM
I've tried to make it a policy not to lie to my kids, partly because I don't want them to lie to me (though I already have a problem with this, with my 4yo -- is this normal? for a 4yo to lie to get out of trouble?). Partly, though, it's because my daughter's adopted and I want her to know I will ALWAYS tell her the truth as I know it about that. No fudging, no blurring, no happy-happy, just the true, age-appropriate, complicated story. I want her to know I'm not afraid of any questions she may ask (including "why did my noisy toy go silent?" and "what's this brown stuff on my food?") I may have stretched the truth now and then, like "Try it, I'm sure you'll like it," but mostly, like Jamie, I do try to stick to the truth without squashing pretend play or fantasy.
Posted by: Jenny | October 08, 2009 at 03:45 PM
When it came to THE BIG QUESTION, I did not lie.
Chuckles: How does the baby get out of your belly?
Me (slowly): Well, I will go to the hospital and the doctor will help me. (quickly) Now, who wants some chocolte milk and where is your father?
Posted by: SarcastiCarrie | October 08, 2009 at 04:03 PM
These are cracking me up.
My mom's lying has been so pervasive throughout my life that as a young child I swore that I would never, ever lie. And I don't, especially since I'm so bad at it (maybe for lack of practice?) The guilt colors my face immediately. I am, however, prone to exaggeration for comedic effect, but IMO that's totally different.
I was a strict vegetarian in college and one time I was having vegetable soup at my mom's house when I spit out a bone. A little piece of my love for her shriveled up and died that day because we had had many talks about respect and trust and what I needed from her now that we were trying to forge a relationship. And she shit all over it.
Also, because I would never want my children to lie to me, I don't plan on lying to them. I don't ask E to do anything now that I don't do - I brush my teeth with him, I put on a coat when he has to, etc. And there's so much tied into lying. I would never want my kids to feel the way I did the day I spit out that bone. I was crushed. Deceived. Betrayed. And I watched in horror as my mother tried to stick to her lie, so my pain turned to anger. Obviously, there was a history here and that one incident was symptomatic of a much deeper problem, but 15 yrs later, it's as if I was still sitting at that table.
That all being said...almond butter oatmeal balls are "frozen bouncy balls" and lunch meat is "turkey snakes" in our house. I don't see this as lying - I see it as being creative and fun and resourceful. My 2 yr old knows he's not eating snakes. He knows he's not eating bouncy balls. But he enjoys proclaiming that he indeed is, and I enjoy watching him eat. And so I guess it's not "lying" that really bothers me, it's the intent behind the lies and the potential damage it can do. And I think that because I tell the truth 90% of the time and follow through on my promises, E is pretty tolerant of the no's that come up in our day-to-day lives. If I say he can have a popsicle when we get home and therefore we do not need to buy more now, he knows that when we get home, he'll get said popsicle. I hope that I can stick to this the smarter/more observant/more willful he gets.
This reminds me...when we were little, my aunt would tell my cousins that plants needed fingernails to live, and so my cousins would let her clip their fingernails and they would sprinkle them in the dirt for the plants to eat. Unfortunately, she forgot to undo this lie and they went into middle school believing that fingernails were plant food.
Posted by: nej | October 08, 2009 at 04:03 PM
Ah! This just reminded me of a conversation I recently had with a friend about how far we could go when defining lying. I was playing devil's advocate, as I am wont to do, and I went so far as to suggest that dying your hair, wearing a push-up/padded/gelled bra, etc was all lying. Because your hair really isn't that color and your boobs really aren't that perky.
We lie all the time, it just depends on what your deception threshold is, I guess.
Posted by: nej | October 08, 2009 at 04:08 PM
@ Jenny, I haven't read all the comments, but I will try my best to be honest to my son for the same reason you cite -- i want him to know that he can trust what we say about his beginnings due to our policy of telling him the age appropriate truth. Also, you should read NurtureShock (mentioned above) about how normal it is for kids to lie and how we unwittingly cause them to do it even more when we try to prevent the lying.
Posted by: Raia | October 08, 2009 at 04:24 PM