Wendy posted this article that I think is extremely interesting. Basically, a major study (34,000 kids) found that there was no correlation between kids' ability to sit down and "behave" at age 5 and later success in school.
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/nurtureshock/archive/2009/10/22/in-defense-of-children-behaving-badly.aspxI thought some of you could use this news as much as I do today.
Thoughts?
That's a shame because I thought Chuckles's ability to sit still meant he was going to do something really great in life (really soon), make lots of money doing it, and I would get to retire somewhere warm without dismal rain.
Posted by: SarcastiCarrie | October 23, 2009 at 04:00 PM
I should add, "No pressure, though, son."
Posted by: SarcastiCarrie | October 23, 2009 at 04:01 PM
Hahahaha. Uh, wait, I thought my kids inability to sit still was going to translate into them making some kind of amazing discovery or invention that would generate lots of money and translate into us being able to retire to some place with mountains. (real ones, not those things they call mountains out here)
Heh.
No, no pressure at all. ;)
I have had moms insist that the opposite pattern was true - that kids who couldn't sit still were just smarter than kids who could. Always struck me as just as wrong as the other way around. Glad to know that both are wrong. Let them succeed based on the stuff that they develop after this age, thanks! :)
Posted by: hedra | October 23, 2009 at 04:10 PM
Well, good. My oldest will sit still and read (since he was 3), my middle one will NOT sit down (except for video games ... I know I am a bad mom!) and he is now 4. My youngest is only 16 months ... but refuses to walk, only crawls but can disappear into thin air if I turn my head just a fraction of a fraction of an inch and lose eye contact. :)
{what does all that mean? I don't have a clue}
Posted by: Melanie K. | October 23, 2009 at 04:30 PM
My first would sit to listen to anything- (the Reader's Digest Guide to Home Repair!) from birth. His brother would squirm, crawl off our laps, wander around the room... but clearly be listening and "know" the stories later. I learned to respect those different styles and still recognize them both as bright kids. But boy are they different!
Posted by: Jill in Atlanta | October 23, 2009 at 04:40 PM
All I think is that we expend much too much effort trying to get them to sit still when they're little, only to expend the same amount of effort trying to get them to get up and *MOVE* when they're older. So heck if I worry much about keeping him in one place right now, as long as constant motion is mostly appropriate and acceptable and no one's safety or sanity is at stake.
(This is what I told my mother when, horrified by my toddler's high-speed circular trajectory around her kitchen, she asked in disbelief, "Is he always like this?")
Posted by: parisienne mais presque | October 23, 2009 at 05:16 PM
Awesome. Reminds me of something I read somewhere about an emerging trend in Scandinavia (can't remember the exact country, due to lack of sleep...) of starting kids in school a few years later. Like age 7 and beyond. The thought being so many kids are not really ready age the tender age of 5 for "school" where they are expected to do things like "sit still." Also, wasn't there some other study about letting kids sit on exercise balls (so they could fidget/move) instead of on traditional classroom chairs resulting in kids performing better on tests?
Posted by: hush | October 23, 2009 at 07:57 PM
Reading that article reminded me that I'm sure I read somewhere about the fact that some kids (and some people in general, I think) need to be moving to learn and think the best. It's just the way they operate and it's the most natural process of learning for them.
@Hush, I love the idea of the kids sitting on exercise balls. I've been meaning to do it at work myself for a while now (not because I need to move and fidget, but to improve my posture and do a bit of core strength training while I'm at it).
Posted by: the milliner | October 23, 2009 at 09:21 PM
As a first grade teacher I have to talk many parents off the "My Kids has ADD!" ledge. I repeat ad nauseum at conferences that their kid doesn't have a disorder, he/she is just 6. That's just how most of them are at that age.
Posted by: Christina | October 23, 2009 at 11:13 PM
And that's also why I love Montessori - not much sitting still required, period! Can sit still if you want to, but except for certain group lessons that are limited duration, get up and go about your business. :)
Posted by: hedra | October 24, 2009 at 06:10 AM
Can't tell you how thankful I am to read this...my 9-month-old is already a whirling dervish and every day he finds more and new ways to conquer his world. My husband was evidently like this too and was labeled a "black sheep," a "bad kid," and for many years struggled with that self-perception. It ended fine--he's a successful professional and a great, loving partner, but we'd like it if our son can skip the black sheep part!
Posted by: Samantha | October 24, 2009 at 11:42 AM
@hush: I live in Denmark, so I can really only speak for here. I don't get much news about the Swedish or Norwegian schools (I don't consider Finland in the same Scandinavian group. Their language is too different!).
Kids go to preschool from 3-5 years old. At 6, they go to the elementary school for kindergarten, but it's not very sit-and-pay-attention-like. Then at 7 they start 1st grade.
There have been a few TV programs in the last couple of years about getting proper exercise in regular intervals, like 10 minutes every hour. Some schools did trial periods of having that implemented into the schedule, plus having exercise balls or those boards with a ball in them to balance on. The students found concentration was much easier. In fact, an American whose name is Chris MacDonald has been getting quite famous on Danish television with his shows about exercise, proper eating and general health. He's been living in Denmark for a number of years, and did some insane cross the U.S. bike ride non-stop. Literally, sleep 40 minutes at a time, or something.
My daughter is still in preschool, and I really look forward to her academic life. I think it will be a good one. As for her type, she's middle of the road. She's not crazy active (often), but not sedate.
Posted by: Claudia | October 24, 2009 at 02:06 PM
Moxie--that made my day, especially the last couple of paragraphs. Makes a lot of sense. Jill - I cannot believe there's another kid out there who likes "The Reader's Digest Guide To Home Improvement". That's been my boy's favorite since he was barely 2, and he even slept with it for a while!
Posted by: Emmie | October 24, 2009 at 05:05 PM
Fascinating! Thanks for the link!
I just went back to the original paper on which the article is based (http://www.nurtureshock.com/Duncan.pdf)
The abstract of the paper links entry-level math, reading, and attention skills with later achievement. However, socioemotional problems are not linked to later achievement.
I think perhaps the newsweek article has slightly misreprented the paper, in highlighting the "can't sit still" issue.
Some kids can pay attention while fidgeting. Others can't. But it's the ability to focus, rather than the fidgeting, that's critical for school.
Just my 2c!
Posted by: Penny | October 25, 2009 at 01:36 AM
oops - sorry about the parens. The link should be http://www.nurtureshock.com/Duncan.pdf
Posted by: Penny | October 25, 2009 at 01:37 AM
@Hush: I live in Finland, and here kids start school the year they turn 7. Most kids are in daycare before that, but judging from what I read about the American system, they focus way less on teaching any particular skills, leaving that to the schools. I'm sure kids are required to try and sit still for stories and such in daycare, but the real "try to sit by your desk now" starts at age 7.
Posted by: Mia | October 25, 2009 at 02:12 AM
re: Finland and starting school late - From CIA website
Finland Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 100%
male: 100%
female: 100% (2000 est.)
I know there are others but I remember Finland because my great grandmother was Finnish and because of the late start age for school. I think I heard the statistic first when someone was trying to show the ridiculousness of those "Your baby can read" videos.
Also, I read an article (can't remember where) about a teaching method called Tools of the Mind that sounded interesting.
Posted by: mom2boys | October 25, 2009 at 08:10 AM
@mom2boys, was it this article in the New York Times Magazine?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/magazine/27tools-t.html
Posted by: Erin | October 25, 2009 at 12:43 PM
Great. Could someone please let my son's preschool teacher know this? I've had it up to *here* with suggested interventions. For a THREE YEAR OLD.
Posted by: j | October 26, 2009 at 12:51 AM
@erin - yes, that was the one, thanks.
Posted by: mom2boys | October 26, 2009 at 08:46 AM
Interesting. The article made me ask a lot of questions: Is there an age at which they can correlate "not being able to sit still" with a lack of acheivement and/or no longer being developmentally appropriate? (2nd grade? 3rd grade? 6th grade?)
It also was a good reminder that either end of the scale (being docile or being challenging because they have their own agenda) is not an indicator of whether they are learning at school.
Like Hedra, I had an assumption that having a more spirited personality might have some positive impact on future success. But, it may only indicate that they have a spirited personality. :)
Posted by: Cathy | October 26, 2009 at 09:37 AM
Oh thank goodness!
I don't have time to read the article or the other links right now, but I like the way it sounds.
Just this weekend, I brought my 2.5 yo to my parents house. My grandmother kept trying to get her to sit down and read a book or play with a toy, but she was in go mode, as she often is. I know my grandma just wanted to spend time with her and she can't run around with her, but I had to explain that my daughter needed to move around and wouldn't sit still.
@Cathy - I like to think that the spirited personality means that she'll have future success in certain pursuits. Because even if it just means that she has a spirited personality, she will of course be highly successful in something (and therefore let me retire to the beach in Florida--no pressure). ;-)
Posted by: caramama | October 26, 2009 at 10:56 AM
I was not a spirited child. I don't come from a line of spirited people but now that I'm raising a nine year old that questions e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g and a two year old that often makes me think of "Faces of Eve", I am looking much harder at non-traditional ways of instructing, communicating and skills building in and out of the classroom. Big fan of Montessori but not all programs are created equally.
Posted by: mom2boys | October 26, 2009 at 11:11 AM
My sister has a super high level of energy, and it drove my parents nuts. But she's a very successful adult, much more traditionally successful than me. My daughter somehow inherited this energy (even though I don't have it), but I comfort myself with the idea that it has served my sister well in the long run.
It's worth noting that it wasn't until high school that my sister started succeeding academically. It's not the typical trajectory, but it worked for her.
Posted by: cherylc | October 26, 2009 at 12:24 PM
@mom2boys We're looking into similar things as far as skill building and education goes. We're also a fan of Montessori, but our local school has changed direction somewhat - not for the better. It's a lot of money to be only somewhat satisfied.
I just ordered a book on the Reggio Emila philosophy of early education. Is anyone familiar with it? What little I've read impressed me; child-led, lots of exploring and learning through all the senses, providing endless ways for children to express themselves.
I'm hoping learning more will help give me some direction and perspective. We're thinking about treating pre-school as homeschool to see if the homeschool thing is a good fit for our family.
I definitely like the idea of putting off sit-still-and-listen formal lessons until after the age of seven.
Posted by: Elaine | October 26, 2009 at 03:56 PM
I actually find this extremely depressing, because of course it's more of the asinine "lets all deny ADHD exists" bullshit in the mainstream media.
Look, lots of kids with adhd are smart, sometimes gifted. And while you rarely see kids taking medication in kindergarden, it's incredibly common in Grade 2 or 3. Usually secretly, with XR meds, because moms get nothing but judgement and cruelty if we tell anyone we give medication. So when we give meds, all of the sudden, our smart kids are behaving, and BAM correlation.
Look, behaviour is on a continuum, and most kids learn to behave better over the course of kindergarden and can sit still in Grade 1 for periods of time, but there are always outliers. Kids who fall so far out of the norms that they are obvious, and an experienced teacher or daycare provider can tell who they are pretty fast.
Right now, knowing how normal kids act, and knowing how my ADHD kids acted as toddlers---I can tell for sure that my youngest, only 18 months has it. I'm not going to get him meds yet, but I'm taking extra precautions to make sure he doesn't hurt himself while we wait for the magic 6 years old to happen. If you told me 12 years ago that my oldest had it, I would have said you were crazy and been enraged--but now with experience, I can spot it a mile away.
And articles like this, are useless, even dangerous.
Posted by: Aurelia | October 26, 2009 at 08:21 PM
@Aurelia - please can you expand a little on "I can spot it a mile away."
And what is the difference between a highly spirited child and one with ADD/ADHD. (I mean this as a serious question).
Thanks.
Posted by: AnonAgain | October 26, 2009 at 08:42 PM
Well Anon, by "I can spot it a mile away" I mean that when you live with something every single day over and over again--you can see it in others, like that book by Malcolm Gladwell, Blink, where he talks about the art expert who can see the difference between a fake statue and a real one, because after many years of experience, he just "knows."
And no, I don't think that is a good sole basis for a diagnosis, but it's an indicator to ask more questions.
As for the difference between a kid with ADD/ADHD and a highly spirited one? Well, some of these books that talk about the highly spirited kid are part of the anti-adhd crowd who will do anything to deny the existence of a long time proven neurobiological brain difference. It's existed in medical books for over a 100 years and been treated just as long. There are genetic studies, eegs, PET scans, fMRIs, and computerized tests to show it is real. And the medication is real and effective, and has been safely prescribed for over 50 years. Aspirin and Tylenol are literally more dangerous and have caused more disability and death.
So I get a little skeptical and concerned whenever I see anything that talks about kids who lie outside the norms of average behaviours among kids their age, especially if it wants to explain it away as modern bad parenting, or modern life run amok. It happens in rural areas, in cities, in suburbs, in NA, in Europe, in Asia, Africa, everywhere.
The key is, is their behaviour in the same range as other kids their age, in their classes, in their groups of friends? All kids run at recess and outside and in parks, but does this kid keep running and never stop and then almost run into traffic and maybe run into his friends and fall over them and hurt them? A spirited kid can stop before they hurt other kids, a kid with ADHD may not be paying attention to social cues and really not get it.
Spirited kids will fall down and skin their knees, perhaps need stitches one day in their life. Kids with ADHD are dramatically more likely to have broken bones, stitches, head injuries, be harmed in bike/sports/walking accidents, drown, fall down stairs, and have a host of other injuries.
Toddlers all have tantrums, the question is how many, how often, how much screaming is there? How loud. How difficult is it to be their caregiver? And the comparison keeps going all the way up the age range. The larger the group, the more diverse the group of kids, the more we stand out.
There is a wide range of normal, and lots of energetic spirited kids in there. But there are outliers, and that's ok.
Sorry for this really long comment Moxie! Have to go out, may not come back to this thread for awhile.
Posted by: Aurelia | October 27, 2009 at 11:33 AM
I don't think my daughter (5 yo) is either ADHD nor "spirited" (according to classic definitions) but she has had trouble sitting still in every preschool environment she's ever attended. At 3 we brushed it off, at 4 we decided against having her "evaluated," but at age 5, in a different country, no less, it's coming up again, so it seems like the maturation we anticipated has not come to pass.
I am curious, though, as to whether her behavior (wiggly but not disruptive, per se) would be more acceptable in a boy. That girls are somehow expected to be more still and demure. She's always defied this particular gender expectation, although she'll read quietly for hours and get completely absorbed in art projects.
I just don't know. I fear that a traditional school model will not be appropriate for her, but I don't have the patience or wherewithal to be her teacher.
Sigh.
Posted by: Kate | October 30, 2009 at 05:15 AM
Wait, I totally take it back. She wasn't a "difficult" or "fussy" baby, but since about age 3 she's totally displaying signs of spiritedness. And we're the idiots who missed it.
Posted by: Kate | October 30, 2009 at 05:57 AM
I looked up the behaviors for ADD and it was like reading a description of our nine year old. Now, when I've previously questioned some of these behaviors prior to ever thinking it could be ADD I was told it's just how boys are. So is it? Is it just how boys are and because it's hard to deal with we've come up with a "disorder" or is it not how most boys are he really could use some help? Not looking for a diagnosis. Just wondering out loud.
Doesn’t pay attention to details or makes careless mistakes
Has trouble staying focused; is easily distracted
Appears not to listen when spoken to
Has difficulty remembering things and following instructions
Has trouble staying organized, planning ahead, and finishing projects
Frequently loses or misplaces homework, books, toys, or other items
Has difficulty waiting for his or her turn
Often interrupts others
Intrudes on other people’s conversations or games
Often leaves his or her seat in situations where sitting quietly is expected
Moves around constantly, often running or climbing inappropriately
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