Q&A: 6-year-old won't sleep at night

Anonymous writes:

"I am at my wit's end. My 6-year-old will not sleep at night. He has never been able to sleep by himself, and I thought it would get better when he was older, but it hasn't. He sleeps in a twin bed in the same room with his older brother, and there's a nightlight right next to his bed. But he stays awake and won't fall asleep. And when he does fall asleep he wakes up to crawl in with his brother or to come into my room to tell me he loves me.

We're only in the second week of school, but the school nurse called to ask if he was on medication because he's falling asleep in class. So clearly he's exhausted. But he just won't fall asleep. We do all the stuff of no TV before bed, calm, relaxing time before sleep, regular bedtime routine, etc. But it's like he just can't fall asleep at night.

Help."

My first suggestion would be to look at what he's eating in the 6 or so hours before bed. Kids can be affected really strongly by all kinds of things, from caffeine to artificial colors to artificial flavors to preservatives, etc.

So for the next week, have everyone who's with him write down everything he eats or drinks from after school until bedtime. Take a look and see if there are any things that jump out at you, and see what happens if you eliminate them.

If it's not something he's ingesting, I'm kind of at a loss. It just doesn't seem possible to me that a person could be unable to sleep during a certain stretch of hours. So there's got to be *something* that's causing it. I followed up with Anon, and this has been happening for years, in different housing situations and family dynamics. So it's not something in the immediate bedroom environment or some new stress.

Has anyone been through this? Any ideas of things she could look at?

Comments

[Slim]

I have kids who don't like to sleep alone -- mommy, daddy, brother, whatever. They're just snugglers. Or puppies who need to be in a pile. Or something.

That said, mine will at least fall asleep by themselves eventually, under extreme circumstances (such as brother being sick and thus off-limits). So I feel your pain, but not as acutely as you do, and because there's a mutual snuggling impulse, everyone's happy on nights the boys can share a bed.

[Steph]

I like Moxie's idea that it could be food...I have an almost 2 year old that will wake up in the middle of the night for several hours if he has chocolate on several consecutive days.

My experience: I was the kid that would talk herself to sleep. It ALWAYS took me at least and hour to fall asleep every night, and I would lay there, and talk through scenarios and anything that was troubling me. That was my way of processing things. Could you try a seperate bedroom/sleeping area for him (even if it's a closet in his room or under the dining table or something), no nightlight, give him paper to write down/draw pictures of whatever he's thinking about, give him a tape recorder/microphone to help verbalize issues, etc? I would change up one thing a week until something clicked. I know it might be normal for him to sleep with a sibling, but I wonder how I would have gotten all those thoughts out of my head if I worried about someone else listening to me?

[Steph]

I should also mention that I still talk myself to sleep sometimes, but never when my hubby is in the bed with me....usually I fall asleep with the TV on (guess it shuts off the voices?)

[meggiemoo]

My DS has always had trouble with the transition to sleeping (and also the transition to wakening). As an infant, he rarely took naps longer than one sleep cycle, and as a preschooler, he will toss and turn for an hour or longer, complaining that he can't sleep.

The only things that have helped (and we looked at the food issues, too) are either massive amounts of exercise (while on beach vacation and running on the beach all day, he has no problem dropping off to sleep), which isn't usually practical, or adding some liquid melatonin to his drink about 20 minutes before bedtime.

We got the OK from his ped, and I use a pretty small dose, but obviously, check with your own ped. It doesn't *keep* him asleep, but it definitely helps with the transition into sleep.

My DS is very intense, and I think he literally lays there thinking about everything and is too wound up to sleep.

Another suggestion...maybe the OPs son could listen to a calm story on headphones in bed, listen to a self-hypnosis tape or other sound machine noise? Learn to relax using meditation or yoga?

[Charisse]

I'm sure you've already done some (tons) of this, but I'd also ask him. Again. :) If you can set up as calm and non-judgmental a conversation as you possibly can, maybe you'll learn something. 6 is old enough that he may have some good ideas.

What struck me was that the OP says that he won't sleep by himself, and my automatic question was, will he sleep with company, i.e. if a parent lies down with him? I know you're not "supposed" to, and lots of books will tell you that independent sleep must happen earlier...but if it works, it might at least get everyone some more sleep for now. Pantley does say in her toddler/preschooler book that children who are parented to sleep every night will generally give it up between 5 and 10--obvy you'd hope for the early end of that range, but at least that gives a sense of the range... and I say all of this as the mom of an almost 5 1/2-year-old who's capable of staying up extremely late, and almost always needs a parent with her to fall asleep in any reasonable amount of time.

Last night, she said she wanted me to give her a kiss and leave--this is ordinarily a recipe for an hour or more of up and down, calling me back, kicking me back out, etc...but last night she was out when I checked back 15 minutes later, and this morning she remembered and was proud of herself. We'll see if the universe is just yanking my chain here, but that's just to say that for us, "giving in" has worked best and seems like it won't mean we're putting her to bed in college...

[Beth]

I wasn't sure I should bring this up in case someone was offended. But my brother never slept at night (I mean NEVER) as a child and he was diagnosed as bipolar last year (he's 21). I'm not saying THIS child is bipolar, but it might not hurt to have him checked out...

A very similar thing happened to my best friend, female. Both of them had a childhood history of not sleeping on a nightly basis.

[Neener]

I would probably give melatonin a try.

[Amy]

I have great empathy for this question - we've been where you are.

My comment is probably going to be controversial, but ***I got my doctor's approval***, and you should too, so I'm just going to put it out there...

My oldest has always been a terrible sleeper. Just awful. From birth. And like the mom who asked the question, it affected her daytime behavior. Once they're in school, that's serious business. (When my second child was a baby my mom observed that my husband and I kept walking by her bassinet to make sure she was still breathing, because we were so unused to having a baby who slept like a normal baby!)

Well, when my first daughter was 2-1/2 or so, I read a study (online somewhere) that talked about the great success (something ridiculous - like a 97% success rate) that researchers had had with blind children and melatonin. I guess blind kids don't get the light and dark cues that sighted people get that tells them to get sleepy... So their bodies don't make melatonin, and they're crummy sleepers. But these researchers gave these blind kids 3 mg of melatonin before bed, and they had CRAZY good results.

So I called my doctor (he's a D.O., so he's kind of into the whole alternative medicine thing) and he said, "Give it a shot!"

Here's our routine - we do bath, if it's a bath night, then the kids get out and get their jammies on, then immediately before they brush their teeth on nights when I can tell it's going to be a problem (nights when they're WOUND UP) I give them a melatonin (3 mg). They chew it. Then they brush their teeth, we read a story and snuggle for about 5 minutes in the dark. Then my husband and I go in our room (my kids don't like being upstairs alone) and leave the kids in their room with a night light.

Without melatonin it was taking my big girl anywhere from an hour to 3 hours to fall asleep - and she was trying - I know she was. She was frustrated that she couldn't do what mom wanted. She knew she needed sleep, but she just couldn't settle.

With melatonin it takes about 5 - 15 minutes for her to fall asleep. Consistently.

Get your doctor's ok (make sure you mention that his sleep difficulties are causing trouble at school - those are magic words) and give it a shot. Worst case - you're out a couple bucks for a bottle of melatonin. Best case, it works, and opens up a whole world of better behavior and better learning.

Now that we've used it, we don't have to use it every night. I think using melatonin has helped my girl learn to settle herself. I also think that getting bigger has helped, and being more active now that we're back in school. Though some nights I'll think, "She doesn't need it," and after her lying there trying to sleep for 45 minutes I'll go ahead and give her one.

We don't give it to her all the time. You'll learn to spot the nights when he needs it and the nights when he doesn't. I'd encourage you to make sure he's getting plenty of physical, outdoor play too. But seriously, try melatonin. It's safe and natural, it's something your body produces naturally, and it has made an enormous difference in my daughter's life.

I blog at http://prettybabies.blogspot.com and you can contact me directly there if you have any questions. I've also written about it once or twice.

Good luck!

[Cathy]

I don't know that even in the crazy 3 1/2s my daughter was as extreme about not falling asleep....but one thing that helped was talk about "resting your eyes" - one night she was fighting sleep and fighting sleep and complained that her eyes were all dry. So I told her to rest her eyes, which she thought was an odd concept. But I just had her close her eyes and not long after, she was asleep. Announcing that she was going to rest her eyes was a big transition to her falling the rest of the way asleep.

Also, for the ones who keep their kids company as they fall asleep - I have been doing that with La since she left her crib. Probably at age 5 1/2 she started dismissing me after only a short amount of company, with my promise to check back on her later. She's recently started to need more company again, but I think she's also going through a developmental spurt (at age 6 3/4).

[Anon, uk]

Here in the uk you can't buy melatonin because it is not considered safe. An alternative might be to teach your child to go to sleep on his own using the 'back to bed' technique. You do your bath - story evening routine and settle him in bed. If/when he gets up and comes looking for you, take him back to bed WITHOUT SAYING A WORD and without any kisses or cuddles or social interaction. Repeat until child goes to sleep. And do the same every night. I saw a tv program where Supernanny uses this method on several children and it always worked. One boy was up 98 times the first night but after 1 week he was sleeping through. My own baby is younger but she definitely sleeps better on the night we stick with the no talking rule than on the nights when I sit by her cot until she sleeps.

Hope something works out for you

[Emma]

If you do decide to look at what he's eating, keep salicylates in mind, too — they can cause insomnia.
If you're not sure where to start, this is a really good guide to the salicylate content of many foods: http://www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.info/content/elimination-diet/salicylates.aspx

[Kris]

Is it possible the room is too bright? Perhaps move the nightlight to the other side of the room.

[flea]

I also know someone whose daughter never went to sleep without it taking hours, from birth, until they tried a small dose of melatonin when she was like 4. It was like a miracle drug in their case. (They did talk to their doctor.)

[akeeyu]

When I couldn't sleep, my mother always used to say "Fine, you don't have to sleep, but you do have to close your eyes for five minutes."

It always worked.

I'm wondering if maybe this is a feature, not a bug. Maybe this is just part of how and who this kid is. Is there a way to work with him, rather than fixing him? If he sleeps better with his brother, can you get the two of them a bigger bed to share? Does he still take naps?

I know we're all supposed to follow X rules and Y procedures, but sometimes I think you just have to say Fuck It and go with what works, whatever it is, even when it sucks.

[Sharon aka Mommie Mentor]

Just read this post and haven't had time to read the others, sorry if I repeat.

Taller, my youngest had this problem big time from birth on. For us it lasted until he was a teen. That won't happen to you because his issues had physical components that caused the situation. Here are a few suggestions.

1. I would check out an osteopath and make sure his sees nothing. Make sure it's a cranial sacral person who has a specialty in children. Having him see your child will rule out any physical issues that are too subtle to be picked up by a pediatrician but are still interfering with his sleep.
For my son the issues were his skull. He was born in the water until crowning, can you say OUCH. His head didn't unfold completely in the birth canal. He had some tiny bones in his skull pressing on parts of his brain that made it very difficult to sleep. For some children the same result, inability to sleep, can be caused by the opposite situation, having a very elongated head coming through the birth canal creating tiny bones that didn't get to unfold. Or anything in between.

2. This really, really worked for us. We adding salt to his bath. I know it sounds crazy but it really works. P.S. it also works on wild children, upset children, agitated children. You can use epsom salts, regular table salt (that's what we used) or Hawaiian salt, it doesn't matter. Add about 1/4 cup to his warm bath. This leaches the tension out of the muscles and psyche and begins the slow down relaxation process.

3. We created a tape for him that had a short story on it and then moved into the sounds of the ocean when the story was over. The ocean sounds went on for several hours. This really worked. When he was older he used ear plugs to replicate the white sound and uses them to this day.

Those three things may help, at least by seeing an Osteopath he'll be able to see if anything is out of alignment in your child's body. ALSO try a homeopathic Dr., he can give you a remedy that will help him sleep. We were lucky, our Dr. was an Osteopath, cranial sacral specialist and homeopath all in one. If you're in SF I could turn you on to him. Email me if you are. sharon@proactiveparenting.net

Good luck.

[caramama]

I suggest you look into light therapy, which would be a more "natural" way of adjusting his body's melatonin than just giving him melatonin supplements.

Let me explain a little, since I've had problems with sleep since childhood. I have Seasonal Affective Disorder, and here's what I've figured out. In the winter, my body produces too much melatonin (brain chemical that tells your body it's time to go to sleep) and not enough serotonin (brain chemical that makes you feel awake and happy and stuff). Sunlight (or the light therapy lamp) suppresses melatonin production and increases seratonin. For me, too much melatonin does two things: 1) makes me tired all the time; and 2) gives me very vivid, intense (and never in a good way) dreams. So my sleep cycle is off and I hate to sleep because the dreams are always overwhelming and bad.

Here's why light therapy can help. When used in the right dosages at the right time (I figured it out with trial and error after researching to get an understanding of the basics), light therapy can help adjust when and how much melatonin and seratonin is produced in the brain.

I think that if your son used a special light therapy lamp at the right times of day for the right amount of time, it could help adjust the production of his melatonin so that he would be tired at night time and be able to sleep, and also be awake (and feel wakeful) during the day.

Anyway, I thought this might help. My issue is obviously very different, as I want to sleep about 20 hours a day in the winter but hate to actually sleep because of the dreams so I used to give myself insomnia. But light therapy is a really great way to help adjust the sleep/wake patterns in the brain. It's also used for jet lag and people who work night shifts.

[HollyRhea]

Sharon - I always suggest Epsom Salts to pregnant women with high blood pressure. It's the Magnesium that helps calm the body. So it totally makes sense (and I'm goign to try this for my kids, too!)

You can buy powdered Magnesium called "Natural Calm" that you mix with hot water. I take this myself to wind down at night and I'm out after 30 minutes. It has the added benefits of keeping my bowels regular and cravings for chocolate down.

Melatonin has been a disaster for us. A close friend of ours gives it to her autistic son when he's unable to sleep, with good results. When we tried it, my daughter had delirious nightmares - terrors, even. When I'm tempted, I just remember her face and her screams. Not for everyone.

[maria]

Wow, I'm definitely going to try the epsom salts. And I think an osteopath is a good idea but we have no insurance at the moment…

My daughter is about to be 6 and sleep has been rough for her off and on (as it has been for me almost always my whole life, which I'm positive I've transmitted to her – can we spell G-U-I-L-T??).

My reaction to the OP's query is the same as some others: can he sleep with someone if it works better? This is a problem if it prevents the cosleepee from getting good rest, but if the two brothers are able to sleep well together, why not let them? Or if the OP can sleep with him in her bed, it sounds like he needs snuggling and company for sleep – lots of people do and it doesn't have to be a problem.

As for my daughter, she still sleeps in my bed, but she has lately been able to fall asleep on her own, with the advent of (Chorus of Angels here) Audiobooks! We've started with Peter Pan and have added Winnie the Pooh, and Mr. Popper's Penguins, and most nights for the past few months she has gone to sleep listening to them. She sometimes falls asleep quickly, sometimes it takes a long time, but I don't care as much because I'm not trapped there getting more and more enraged that she can't settle down.

We still have the regular bedtime routine: bath, pjs, warm milk, teeth, reading, singing (she sometimes HATES the singing, which causes me great disappointment), then I say goodnight and start the book and Wheeha! walk out of the room.

I will say that I am still concerned that she is not getting enough sleep. She has never gotten the amount the books said she needed at a given age, and I do think she'd have an easier time and be less sensitive if she was better rested. We're homeschooling so mostly she's able to wake up when she's ready, but I think she'd wake up at the same time if she went down earlier. Maybe I'll try the melatonin (though it gives me pause that the UK doesn't consider it safe).

[Ashley]

This is a slightly different scenario since I apparently slept at night when I was younger and my sleep problems didn't start until I was about your son's age, but I experienced some really severe insomnia between the ages of 5-7 or so.
In my case, it was like I just couldn't turn my brain off at night and I was awake worrying about things. My biggest fear was the idea of "forever" so I would lie awake panicking about the idea of eternity (why I was even thinking about this in first grade, I don't know!) and then I'd gradually hear my parents get ready for bed and go to sleep and then I'd be worrying even more because I was the only one awake in the house and then I'd be worried about being tired the next day and that would keep me up more, etc. until finally after 4+ hours lying in bed I'd fall asleep.

Two things helped me: the first was talking to adults about my fears. It didn't help me alleviate the specific worries, but I learned some techniques to focus on more pleasant things before bed. One I remember distinctly is that when scary thoughts of forever crept into my head I'd start making a mental list, "Mommy loves me, Daddy loves me, Grandma loves me, my teacher loves me" and I'd repeat that mantra until I nodded off.
The other thing that really helped was my aunt, who told me one night, "It's okay if you don't sleep. Your body is getting plenty of rest even if you just lie in bed and close your eyes." I know that's not really true, but as a kid it relieved the "Oh my gosh, I can't fall asleep, I'm going to mess up my body," stress, which is partially what was keeping me up in the first place. Oddly, once I realized that I could just lie in bed all night with my eyes closed but didn't actually have to sleep, I started falling asleep much more easily.

All that to say, it could definitely be a mental thing, so really talk to your son about what exactly he's thinking about at night in bed and see if you can help him figure out ways to turn off his brain. Good luck on figuring out what's keeping your son awake at night.

[nej]

There are already a ton of good suggestions on here. Unless something really jumps out at you, OP, I would make a list from easiest/least invasive to yikes and go through them one by one.

For us, it was diet. My son has been a craptacular sleeper till oh, last week and he is 25.5 months old. When he was an infant, we discovered that it was dairy in my diet that was agitating his reflux, so I eliminated dairy for the 14m and 4d he nursed. Then we thought it was karma that our kid was a non-sleeper - DH and I were both mischievous children and both our mothers wished that our child was half as bad as we were. So we figured they got what they wished for. But then we started noticing things that seemed unrelated yet...

Long story short, our son is on Culturelle and digestive enzymes and it has made a world. of. difference. His poops are normal for the first time in his life. He's grown an inch in the last month and a half (could be coincidental but I wonder.) He's off of his gluten-free diet (thank moses!) and although he still drinks ostly goat's milk, he can have dairy without us having to sacrifice a night's sleep over it. He's sleeping through the night and talking about being tired and needing a nap. He's got tons more energy, but not the nervous frantic energy we'd grown accustomed to. He has the dance around the room kind of energy now. So yeah, I would look at diet. And E rarely gets sugar but we've upped his fat intake b/c turns out that there is such a thing as "too healthy."

That being said, if something traumatic occurs during the day, he still needs to process it at night before he can go to sleep and if we don't for whatever reason, he wakes up in the middle of the night, talks about it, comes to a resolution (yes, you did make "dippy eggs" on the grocery store floor, but it was an accident and you couldn't have known that opening that carton of eggs was going to lead to such a mess since mom always opens eggs to check them and none of them end up on the floor) and then he falls right back to sleep. This is just his personality and we're pretty good about debriefing before going to bed. Usually done at dinner as it makes very entertaining conversation for my husband, especially when I reserve the context till E's got the whole story out.

I will also second the need for activity - we literally run E into the ground on an almost daily basis. As in, he's 2 and is never in a stroller b/c he walks everywhere. We walk down to creek on most days and it's about 2 miles roundtrip, only about 0.5 of that do I carry him. We go to parks, we play basketball, soccer, etc. We make sure that his little legs are tired because it seems like the heavier his legs are, the heavier his eye lids.

If I think of anything else...

[Sharon aka Mommie Mentor]

I too suggest to my clients that they first try telling their child it's okay not to sleep but you have to lay there. As I read that post I had a memory of myself as a young child not be able to sleep and my mom telling me the same thing, I was greatly relieved.

I didn't know you could give melatonin to a child. My mom needed it very badly when she was recovering from cancer. I think it's worth trying, with Dr.'s approval and if it doesn't work throw it away.

Adults and kids use light therapy in the NW due to Seasonal Affective Disorder, I forgot about that one too. There's so much rain and darkness they need the help. Thanks for reminding me of that one caramama. I'm knee deep in a huge project and my mind is focused on other things!

Here again, just like everything in parenting, like Moxie says, you are the best parent for your child! You have the instincts to know what will work and what won't.
Such great resources everyone shared here, including HollyRhea who just gave me what I've needed for years, why salt works, and it does! Thanks!

[maria]

@caramama, thanks so much for the reminder about light therapy… I really need it, I've known for several years and every fall I put off getting the darn light and eventually spring comes and I haven't gotten it together. Maybe to have the nudge BEFORE the equinox this year will help!

[Cloud]

If you try all the ideas you are comfortable with and your son still can't sleep, I'd consider seeing a sleep specialist doctor. There are physical conditions that cause persistent insomnia, and in many cases, there are treatments that help. In some cases, people just need a week or two of medicine to help reset their internal clocks. (I find sleep research fascinating, and have read a bit in the area- but I'd definitely go see a specialist in your shoes. Sleep is a complicated thing!)

[KatieV]

Didn't read everyone, but another one here to chime in for melatonin. Some people just don't produce enough to be able to fall asleep easily; my 4.5-y-o son is one of them. Start off with 1mg "chewable" or "dissolve on tongue" at night. We worked up to 3mg once per night, and it has changed our lives.

[corduroy]

Chiming in to say that I know yet another family who've had great luck with melatonin (with doctor's approval). I'm ordinarily suspicious of anecdata, but this seems such a common result that it's perhaps worth a try? Or at least talking over with the child's doctor?

[mo]

Just chiming in with another thought - when I was a kid, I was so scared I'd lay away for hours and fight the sleep and it wouldn't matter how sleepy I was, I would force myself to stay awake to make sure nothing bad happened. I just knew someone was going to come in and kill us (I know, not pleasant thoughts). I would only sleep when I could sleep with someone or until I was beyond exhausted (typically I caught up enough on weekends when I could sleep in a little). I'd pay my sister every night to sleep with her (she'd decline sometimes and I owed her more than I made in allowance).

Eventually, I learned to talk myself out of it by doing stupid things like putting the blankets over my head and learning to stay so still so that if someone came in they wouldn't be able to see me. Demanding no nightlights or hall lights, that way the scary person would have a hard a time seeing me if I was sleeping. We got a dog and that really helped because then I'd have the dog sleep on my bed and I figured if someone came in the dog would move enough to wake me up.

Anyway, long story short, perhaps he's scared (of either sleeping and having nightmares or of the dark, etc.) which maybe explains why he'd want to sleep with someone. Sadly, I still get scared at night - I've just learned how to managed it (helps that my husband is home!).

Good luck.

[mom2boys]

I'm pretty sure my two year old has at least a mild form of sleep apnea - restless sleep, hard to fall asleep, trouble staying asleep, snoring - I wonder if the long history of trouble sleeping for the OP has evolved into the inability to fall asleep and stay asleep?

Another one scared of the dark and not a fan of sleeping alone. I'm pretty sure as I got older I just dealt with it the best I could. I used to sleep in a fairly well lit room, Closet doors had to be closed. Didn't like my bedroom door closed and I remember imagining I was surrounded by an invisible shield that nothing could get through in order to fall asleep.

It's pretty miserable to be laying there awake and all alone so I hope the OP finds something to help her son with all these great suggestions!

[nej]

I used to stay awake when I was about 7 because we moved to Mexico and there were gators that stalked the gold course that backed up to our house. Also because I was convinced that someone was going to come in the window and try to kidnap us. And to this day, if I entertain any of those wild ideas even for one second, I can spin myself into a frantic frenzy in no time. But I'm an adult now and when my husband is out-of-town, I double check the locks and then reassure myself that if someone breaks into the house, the last thing they'll want to do is violate a woman in my condition (I'm 35 weeks, huge, and sooo grumpy! No one wants this.)

As far as the melatonin debate - from what I understand after calling my naturopath today and asking her as many non-specific questions as I could get away with, some non-sleepers don't produce enough and pill-form works, and some non-sleepers make enough but aren't sleeping for other reasons and if they take melatonin, it could cause bad dreams, etc. Not sure how they test for it (my naturopath puts a wrist guard on you and apparently it serves as a window to your soul) but it's worth looking into.

Also along the natural path - Wish Garden makes a tonic called Sleepy Time and that combined with a couple of Calms Forte tabs works wonders in this household. Although at this point I wonder if there's not a bit of the placebo effect going on. But maybe some sort of magical robot sleep tonic (or whatever 6 yr olds are into these days) might help. Although if he's always had a hard time sleeping, I'd be inclined to think it's more physiological than psychological.

[Sarah]

Wow timely for me. As I just had my 8 year old tell me that she will never ever be able to fall asleep without someone sitting with her. And it annoys me to no end. And I know it is better and faster on the nights that I am calm and soothing and "on" and that I don't dwell on the fact that I will be sitting with her until I somehow marry her off.

We sit with the 5 year old too, but he falls asleep within 5-10 minutes nearly always, so it doesn't feel like torture. I also think if my daughter started sleeping on her own, he'd follow suit, just a gut feeling.

My daughter was a terrible terrible sleeper as a baby. Fussy toddler. Co-sleep worked OK from ages 1 to 3. But the bed got too small. And she genuinely likes her bed. In the night, she used to crawl in bed with us but that was fixable. Well, it was hard, in that we went to her room with little no talking every time she came in. And if I was not exhausted, I could go back to my bed in a few minutes.

But falling asleep. Ugh. So much sympathy for OP. The falling asleep ritual used to take 2-3 hours most nights. My daughter won't let me leave (by screaming, crying and leaving her room) if she isn't asleep. The plus is that I know she gets her time in. She is good for 10-12 hours, minus any middle of the night wake-up.

I am living for the Pantley 5-10 year old range of independent sleep.

We tried magnesium. And benedryl. Melatonin worked for my husband in college. Hmmm...

I just want my daughter to agree that she will some day fall asleep on her own. Not this week or month. But some day. I feel weak and terrible that I threatened her that she could cry herself to sleep if she persists in giggling and smirking when I ask her to agree to help me make a sleeping plan. She is seeing a therapist for anxiety and they discussed sleep today because she told the doctor she had no more fears. The doctor is very cautious and let her agree so far to sleeping with a doll and I would stay until she was asleep. So exactly the same as we did last night, plus a doll she ignored. At 4, I assumed sleep would be better by 6. At 6, by 8.

[Kristie]

When I was a kid I had trouble falling asleep. I remember my pediatrician advising me to start at my toes and tense up my muscles one by one (feet, calves, thighs, stomach, etc...) until I reached my head and my whole body was tense. Then starting with my head, slowly release the tension from my muscles one by one in reverse until I reached my toes and my whole body was relaxed. I still do it when I have trouble sleeping. It helps release any tension you are holding in your body.

[Lisa]

We used audio books to train our 3 1/2 yo daughter to stay in bed. At first she stayed awake to hear the entire story, then wanted it played again. After about 5 sessions of the same story, either in one day, or over a few days, she begins to fall asleep earlier and earlier. Unfortunately, she had a tantrum and kicked the cd player which apparently broke the laser connection. As tempting as it is, she will have to wait for Christmas for a new one.

We love the "Magic Treehouse" series. The Author reads the stories in a very even and mellow voice and there are very few high level noises if any. Although some of the themes may have bothered me as a child, they fascinate and educate her. She also loves "Peter Rabbit", but hates "Heidi". She likes "Threadbear", too, but it has the loud squeaks of a squeeze toy just at the end, how frustrating! Also there are childrens recordings meant to teach relaxation and a meditative mind-set for sleeping. Our daughter those even more than "Heidi". I think she needs a compelling story to get her out of her own thoughts, but that then they become habituated and relaxing in the way familiar sounds are.

[greatkid]

another mama here with a kid who cannot turn off her brain at night. i don't think it's emotional or behavioral or anything else - i sincerely believe it's strictly physical. both sides of her family have huge insomnia issues - i was luckily spared. at any rate, i SWORE against melatonin, and tried everything else natural under the sun. i do have to say, i think oral magnesium and epsom salts do make a slight difference before bed, but melatonin has been the biggest help for her. before, she was like a light switch - either ON, or asleep. no wind down, no sleepy signs, etc. it was like her brain just never told her it was time for bed. melatonin now helps her get to sleep SO much faster, and she actually asks for it many nights. i researched it quite a bit, and i think the biggest mistake people make it giving TOO much. her developmental pediatrician (she has asperger's syndrome) recommended between 1-3 mg, up to a max of 6 mg. i give her 0.125 mg. the time i gave her 1 mg, she woke up quickly, had horrible terrors, etc. so, if you're going to try it, i would start with 1/8 of a mg (0.125 mg) or a half mg, and work up if necessary. she's taken it for about three months, and we're still at 1/8 of a mg. we use the liquid kind from whole foods, and i squeeze it under her tongue.... just my experience. best of luck to you :).

[Lisa]

I forgot; a swim at the local rec center works like magic, as does a good walk on a cool or cold night, we just have to ensure she gets enough food in her before and after so much exercise (bananas, tapioca, yogurt shakes). There seems to be something in cooling her body down. I do pool-temp baths with her, and keep her room cool. It sounds harsh, but she loves her bath, and loves to snuggle in her blankets afterward.

[Laura]

There are so many things that could be going on here that it may be worth bringing a doctor on board to help sort out the possibilities. In an ideal world Anonymous lives somewhere that she has access to pediatric sleep clinics and specialists (just google "pediatric sleep specialist"). They'll have a better grasp on all of the things that could be going on, from underlying medical conditions (sleep apnea, reflux, etc.), sleep disorders (delayed phase syndromes, RLS, narcolepsy, REM issues), behavioral issues that could be maintaining the problem, psychological factors that could be related, etc. The good news is, figuring out what's going wrong is the hard part! There are treatments for all of these potential problems and pediatric sleep medicine is a growing field with tons of new research.

[Heather]

The first thing that comes to my mind, if cosleeping or sibsleeping is not an option, is a dog who is allowed to sleep with him. Seriously.

I was an insomniac as a child. My parents were exasperated that I couldn't relax; then eventually they gave up. I had to go to bed at bedtime, but I could read as long as I needed to help myself fall asleep. That was much better, although sometimes it still took a while. Then my mom eventually let our dog sleep at my feet, which rocked. My issue wasn't weaning from cosleeping--my parents never coslept with me--but just difficulty winding down at the end of the day. But I imagine a dog would be exceptionally helpful to someone who really needs a presence to sleep comfortably. If that's practical for you, that is :)

[hedra]

Phew. Slew of issues possible, and I can't read all the comments.

1) Any kind of GI fermentation (even if you don't see gassy/constipation/loose-stools/etc.) will prevent trytophan from being absorbed, which prevents both serotonin and melatonin from being made by the body (we need tryptophan to create them). So diet could definitely be a culprit, but the underlying issue could be lactose intolerance, fructose malabsorption, or anything that causes GI inflammation (allergy, intolerance, chemical sensitivitity, etc., etc.). It is an investigation process. If he has anxiety as well (needing extra company suggests that a little), I'd look for tryptophan blocking mechanisms, since they're involved in both sides of that line.

2) Dairy allergy - even mild sensitivity is shown by research to majorly affect sleep (possibly through the same mechanism as above, starting with the GI inflammation, but that's not entirely clear). What is clear is that researchers at Johns Hopkins found that removing all traces of dairy from the diet had an impact on sleep function for kids who were not sleeping well - but it took FIVE WEEKS to see the sleep change. Not two, like you're often told, so if you've tried removing all traces of dairy (down to whey, casien, flavorings, etc.) for shorter than five weeks, try going for at least six.

3) Melatonin supplementation is kind of a workaround for when you're not sure why the melatonin system isn't functioning right, IMHO. I would definitely talk to a doctor about it, but I'd rather find why the system isn't working than back-fill to increase the levels. Granted, sometimes you can't find ANY reason, so that's still an end-run option.

4) Workarounds for the actual sleep... Mr B still prefers to sleep next to someone, too. He's almost 8. I think Mr G was around 8 when he really started to feel confident about sleeping alone. So, we just still cycle the kids through, and deal. Whatever works to get the sleep, for now. It is always worse if a) diet has been poor (Mr B has Fructose Malabsorption, so diet is IMPORTANT), and b) he's over-tired or over-stimulated (it takes 2 hours or so to get adrenaline out of the body, and when a person is over-tired, they start pumping out adrenaline to stay functional, so if you wake up overtired, it can whack the next night, and the night after, etc., in a cycle - try starting bedtime TWO HOURS earlier, but aiming for the same bedtime lights-out (or sooner). That may give him time to settle the adrenaline out and allow sleep to come, and start resetting.

5) Is hy at all hypermobile (bendy, flexible, bruises easily)? Again, another issue for Mr B is he has very slight hypermobility. This sets up two issues - one, he has a harder time getting enough information from his body (the joints are not quite tight enough, the neurological system is a little leaky), so he has sensory processing issues, hyposensitive (doesn't always notice when he gets hurt, seeks activities without regard to safety, etc.); two, he is prone to night pain, but it is so standard that he doesn't read it as pain/discomfort at all. One of the 1.5 inch thick thermarest-type pads for his bed cut his fall asleep time from 40+ minutes to about 15, just because it was comfier on his joints. Much less kicking, rolling, reshuffling, covers-off/covers-on, tossing/turning, etc. He still does a little, but oh MAN the pad makes a difference! DO NOTE: They're massively chemically stuff, so make sure you let it offgas somewhere outside the house or with good ventilation for at least a week, if you opt for one.

6) Does he snore or sweat at night? Have you ever considered cranial sacral or chirorpractic care? Mr G did not sleep through the night until he was 4, and it was right after he had pediatric chirorpractic care. He stopped snoring, stopped sweating at night, and stopped tossing and turning (and falling out of bed, too). I was still a little skeptical that it was 'just' the chiropractic (even though it was obvious from the x-ray that he was badly torqued in the neck, poor boo), but a year or so later, he fell and hit his head and had to have his ear stitched back together - it took six people to hold him down, with his neck twisted to the side (sucky all around), and on the drive back home, he started snoring again - and got circles under his eyes, woke at night, was restless, etc. - took him back to chiropractic (he hadn't been in a while), and ta-DA! fixed again in a couple of sessions (he tended to revert at the slightest provocation until it had settled back into the normal alignment again). Mr B had chiropractic much earlier in life, but it was not the same kind of player for him.

7) Silent reflux. Yeah, another possible medical issue. Reflux in typical mode is obvious, but silent reflux doesn't tell you what's going on. Mr G had silent reflux, too (whee, multiple issues), and it was definitely a player. It causes several things that disrupt sleep: a) prone position sets off alarms saying 'do not do this' or 'this is not good', even if no pain is present; b) it causes sinus and adenoid inflammation, which make it harder to breathe and more likely to have snoring or other apnea-related oxygenation issues; c) it creates a general sense of anxiety related to night-time (when symptoms get worse). Mr G was never pukey as a baby (very normal), but definitely had reflux when we finally had him tested. He responded very well to meds, and that took the last edge off his sleep issues. He's now an easy sleeper, falls asleep easily, stays asleep all night, no problems.

8) Other sleep function issues. Mr B (back to him again) is actually my 'best sleeper' naturally, and has been since he was an infant. BUT, he is also prone to night terrors and night walking. That's a neurological function issue, outside everything else. Possibly genetic, but something we have to be aware of (especially if we're away from home, or if he's overstimulated/excited, or if he is sick - he almost walked out of our hotel room once!).

So, uh, anyway, lots it could be. Preference to diet to comfort level to ... you name it. Investigating it is a pain in the rear, but it may be worth it. At the very least, you can say you have been comforting if he was in pain, and have not made it worse for him, even while working on getting him to change his pattern (those skills are still useful, even if they're fighting biology).

My last note is just reiterating 'check biology' in a different way - when we were doing the feeding disorder investigation with Mr G (the reflux was involved there, too), the doctors were very clear that it was ESSENTIAL to rule out medical conditions first, because if you just try to change behavior when an underlying condition is present, you're fighting biology, and biology tends to WIN. So, look for medical stuff that might be under there, and then work on the skills again. They'll work much better if there's nothing else going on. And even if you don't find anything, don't assume too much about what that means - keep the flag in the back of your mind, because sometimes they just didn't look for the right thing (like the bipolar issues mentioned above) - you may spot a different pattern at a different age that causes everything to click.

(By the way, our cue that something was Very Wrong with Mr G was when the teachers said he sat on the playground and watched the other kids play at recess... he was too tired to play. Uh, WHOA, RED ALERT! - and the teachers also said, 'what did you do?' when in two weeks after we stared chiropractic, he was playing on the playground with the other kids, was alert and attentive in the morning (before nap), and was much more social and outgoing, less anxious, and more all-around easy - even though he'd been easy before. So, yeah, the tired-at-school thing is a big alarm bell for me... and you'd think I'd have learned to be super-watchful after that, but I still missed stuff with the next child, and the next, and the next... GAH! How come it isn't all stamped on their foreheads!????)

[12tequilas]

Wow, I'm taking some notes on all of these great suggestions.

My son is 6.5 and has difficulty sleeping. Usually he can fall asleep but wakes up during the night, sometimes multiple times. We have an appointment next week with an ENT (the ped wanted to rule out physiological problems first) and then if he doesn't find a problem, DS is supposed to see a therapist and also have a sleep study done. In the meantime, I'm going to try epsom salts and possibly give him a placebo (special tea or something), and perhaps a mantra to say. I suspect he does have anxieties of some sort; we have tried to get him to tell us but I think it's something he can't articulate or fully understand.

I also like the chiropractic idea.

[maria]

@ Heather, that's a really good idea!

@ Sarah, I feel you, I really do. I have *often* said things I regretted in the bedtime hour(s), and *often* it's because I'm enraged beyond reason by the giggling/smirking/deliberate button pushing. Especially when I'm SO TIRED myself. This is one of my worst failings as a parent, actually.

[hedra]

@maria and @Sarah, same here - bedtime totally winds my crank (and ep's, too). I've had better luck when I've been very clear (over a few months) that I am upset about losing MY sleep time. That plus a few playful strategies has helped tone me back down a bit (like, I've taken to barking like a dog when I really want to yell, and saying 'Mommy dog says WOOOF!' instead of 'WHY ARE YOU NOT BRUSHING YOUR TEETH?????!?!!!!????!!!' It still has the effect of breaking into whatever pattern they're stuck on, while not being bossy, and it is easier for me to hear it and laugh instead of hear it coming back in my ears and both get angrier and feel guilty ('now you made me angry, you should be ashamed, it's all your fault!' was a subtle message I got from my parents as a kid, along with the fact that I hear anger and I tend to react with anger - even if it is my anger I'm hearing... whee.)

It gets better with age, too, by the way. Theirs. Maybe mine, too!

[diane]

I'm wondering how old your children were when you first tried melatonin. And how long did you give it to them for?

[rem sleep disorder]

My last note is just reiterating 'check biology' in a different way - when we were doing the feeding disorder investigation with Mr G (the reflux was involved there, too), the doctors were very clear that it was ESSENTIAL to rule out medical conditions first, because if you just try to change behavior when an underlying condition is present, you're fighting biology, and biology tends to WIN. So, look for medical stuff that might be under there, and then work on the skills again. They'll work much better if there's nothing else going on. And even if you don't find anything, don't assume too much about what that means - keep the flag in the back of your mind, because sometimes they just didn't look for the right thing (like the bipolar issues mentioned above) - you may spot a different pattern at a different age that causes everything to click.

[rem sleep disorder]

One-third of all adult Americans–about 50 million people–complain about their sleep. Some sleep too little, some fitfully, and some too much. Although one-third of our lives is spent asleep, most of us don’t know much about sleep, not even our own. We don’t even know exactly why we sleep, other than–like an overnight battery recharge–sleep promotes daytime alertness. Sleep problems profoundly disturb both sleeping and waking life.

[adenoid surgery]

Maybe your child have adenoids don't you think ?

[Seroprin-24]

Thanks for the amazing post, Now I will read time to time that...

[Paige]

Don't know much about melatonin...what about giving him a benadryl? (maybe just a half of one...smile) Is that bad???

[tinnitus cure]

Incredible montag of images, as regular. Who wouldn't be commencing to obtain while in the mood for fall along with the amazing climate here these days?!Thanks as usually for that inspiration.

[Julie]

My 6-yr-old daughter (to be 7 on the 21st of this month), has had issues staying asleep through the night since she was a baby. She will sleep for a few hours and then she wakes. It doesn't matter what time she goes to bed. She seems to wake around the same time each night/morning regardless of bedtime - which seems to be between 2:30 - 3:30 am. It seems to be getting worse this year. Now she will wake up and stay up for a couple of hours or more. More often then not she stays in her room and doesn't make a sound so I don't know she's awake. However, when she does make it known she's awake she is put back to bed. I will put on her classical music CD's on a low volume & that helps sometimes but not always. I talked with our Dr about this and she hasn't made any useful suggestions. I saw someone mentioned adenoids - my daughter had her tonsils & adenoids & tubes put in her ears last September.
This sleeping issue IS an issue during school days. She HAS fallen asleep in class. She is very grumpy and moody during the day when she doesn't get a good night's sleep. I've tried to explain things (on a level she can understand - she's VERY bright) and she tells me that when she wakes up she just can't go back to sleep no matter what she tries. Sometimes it's a bad dream (which I suffered from A LOT as a child, and was also a sleep walker for a short period), sometimes it's thirst (she takes a bottle of water to bed each night), sometimes it's simply "I can't sleep".
Her father, from what I gather through shared stories, was the same way. He's a highly intelligent man. However, he either sleeps too much or too little and working straight nights is his thing and he loves it. I'm starting to wonder if they have a night school for children. LOL

Anyway, school is right around the corner and so I'm trying to correct this NOW. I keep my daughter active during the day with lots of play and swim and she is NOT allowed to nap no matter how grumpy she gets or how tired she is. I always HOPE that this will help her fall asleep early but the next thing I know it's 11:30pm or LATER and I'm STILL fighting with her to get to sleep or stay in bed!! I have never (intentionally) strayed from her routine since she was a baby so she DOES have one. Maybe she's rebelling against it? I'm just totally confused and at my wits end.

Thankfully (in a way) I'm not working right now BUT we are due to have our second child in December. If things don't change with Jaiden I'm not sure if I'll be able to keep my sanity when the baby comes. LOL I already feel bad for losing my cool with her when she fights me about sleep.

Oh Lord, please HELP!! LOL

J

[Pat]

Honestly Sarah I think every mom has this problem. And if they dont they are so lucky lol. Jeremiah has alyaws been up and down. We had to do the crying method thing where we let him cry himself to sleep. Other nights we'd rock him to sleep. We finally gave into movies while he is sleeping cause it calmed him down and bought him a blanky which he cant sleep without. He still to this day (almost 2) wakes us up in the middle of the night. Mainly because of his teeth, but the other night it was because he wanted his drum lol. And dont get me started with Isaiah. I mean he does sleep through the night but nap times are a pain! He will fight it all the way. I cant just sit there rocking him to sleep I have a 2 yr old to chase around so I have put him done and let him cry it out but he just continues to cry and he will be silent for about a minute then opens his eyes and starts crying again. But I'm sure the day will come when Isiah wakes me up at 3am and stays awake thats how Jeremiah was lol I just say its what they do. It's tough but as mammas we get through it

[Mensagens]

Dear Mme Bouc and M Audubon-I had the impression wrong, perahps that Turdus migratorius, a THRUSH and not a ROBIN, really, got that name from the Latin for Thrush. Apparently our song thrush, Turdus turdus, is the ultimate thrush, and very lovely it is in both song and appearance, although very shy & hard to see.So that is why our American Robin has such a lovely song! Well, though I hate to question the esteemed M Audubon, I checked my Sibley Field Guide to Western Birds and it lists American Robin under Thrushes, right along with many other thrushes. So Turdus it is! ~Jana

[http://www.forexbroker.info/]

follow along the coast. But the wind rose, and the surf dashed so standing still, to steady himself and make sure of his new strength, just, but sinners.