Q&A: fear of the toilet

An unnamed blogger at BlogHer asked me about her daughter's potty training issue. It seems her daughter is afraid of the toilet.

I asked if it was the sound of the flushing, or if her daughter was maybe afraid of being sucked down the toilet when it flushes. But it turns out that her daughter is also afraid of the free-standing potty chair.

Hmm. This makes me think that it's not a fear of the toilet itself, but of using the toilet. In other words, she's afraid of not using a diaper or pullup.

So is this a fear of change? A fear of being a "big girl"? It seems like there are all kinds of subtle fears that could be playing into this.

As usual with potty-training, I'm not convinced there's a perfect solution. I'd try to use peer pressure as much as possible, because this might help her get past any fears of being a big girl, if that's what it is.

In this situation, I'd talk to her daycare providers to see how things are going there, and if they have any suggestions about how to leverage any friendships to help her get past her fears.

The thing to bear in mind is that she will eventually use the toilet. This is just a bump in the road. It may take a little sleuthing to see if you can figure out what's really at the root of the fear, though.

Has anyone been in this situation? How did you get past toilet-fear?

Comments

[CG]

No insights from me today--my kid (2.5) has zero interest in using the toilet. I was wondering if, as part of the comments for this post, anyone could recommend a good book to read about potty training. I'm looking for the Ellyn Satter of potty training: how to make it a low-key process that isn't stressful and doesn't take a lot of work. Is there such a thing?

[Anonymous]

It sounds to me like this little one just isn't ready quite yet. Unless there's a pressing reason to push potty training right now (like getting ready for preschool), I'd back off and try again in a few months. Good luck!!

[SarcastiCarrie]

The only thing I ever recommend for toilet training is a super duper reward. Something that just really makes it awesome to go on the potty. Like a fire truck with lights and sirens that mom normally wouldn't let you have because Lights! and Sirens!
But, fear, that's a whole different thing because if the child can't get past the fear, then you're just denying him/her an awesome fire truck.
Chuckles, my 4 year old, is shy. He must be in physical contact with me in all new situations, for the first 20 minutes of situations he has experienced before but is just doing again (like going to day care every single morning or his grandparents' house), entering the grocery store or the library, visiting friends, etc. So, I have some tips on fears that you can't quite figure out.

Will she go near the toilet with you? Will she sit on the little potty in diapers? Will she sit on your lap on the toilet (maybe while you go...I know privacy is a thing of the past)? After you've gone, will she flush for you? Will she flush while both your hands are on the handle together?

We do a lot of mommy holds you while you do things that scare you (like go down a slide, jump in the pool, walk into a door of a place you've never been, meet new people). Sometimes, I have unlimited patience for this kind of thing and sometimes I want to yell, "You go to day care every day...let go of me." I never do yell that, but I try to encourage letting go of me. Go. Play. Have fun.

So my bottom line advice is definitely not to push but to do every little thing with her that involves the toilet even if it's not using the toilet herself so she develops a comfort level for the sights and sounds of the bathroom.

[HappyMama]

What is all this praise stuff about? My understanding is that making a big deal about toilet training (or anything fundamental to growing up) either positive or negative is a potential problem. I feel sure if my toddler got wind of how happy I'd be if she were toilet trained she'd add it to her repertoire of Ways to Tease Mama.
My method is to assume she'll want to do all these big girl things when she's ready, and to accommodate her as far as possible. I do not, however, want to teach her to do these things to please me. When she does use the potty or toilet I try not to praise, but to state (in a happy voice) what she just did.
I could turn out to be badly wrong of course - she's only 1.5 years old, so has a long way to go before she can train properly.

[Rachel]

Yeah, I have to say that the potty was one place I wasn't willing to coddle.

I think the root of her problem is control. She wants it and Mom is jumping to the bait. Somewhere girl has gotten some idea and Mom just needs to nip it in the bud.

Walk her into look at the potty and lay it out. "Yes I know you don't like the potty, but Mommy and lots of people use it everyday with no issues and now I expect. you. to. do. it. too. Let's review the process.....great. Call me if you need help." And never rise to her bait again.

I'm guessing within a couple of weeks (that will seem like an eternity) the problem will be solved. If Mom truly expects it to be.

No expert here, but my son who had zero interest in the potty sorted it mostly out within three days once I seriously lowered the boom and threw his diapers out. Best of luck!

[Cecily]

Why am I always unnamed? LOL.

I keep talking to her about it, and we'll get there. I feel sure. :)

[mom2boys]

After trying to get daycare on board - complete disaster - I've gone back to just not talking about it because if I ask the answer is always no. And sometimes it's something he does and we talk about it rather matter of factly. Did the whole big clapping look at you thing but the memory of the spotlight fades quickly and he's not at all scared - just stubborn. Yesterday at a friend's house he sat in a little potty that her daughter steadfastly refuses to use and went potty in his diaper while sitting on the potty while looking at me and commenting on his activity. And then we went and he got on the big potty to finish. So yeah whatever. I've got no answers just commiseration on this whole parenting thing.

[liz]

I vote for having her sit on the potty in her diaper. Just as a seat sort of thing. Have her sit on the toilet (with a training ring on it) while you're brushing your teeth and what not.

Just sit. Fully dressed or in a diaper. No big deal. No training.

Then start asking her to sit there when she's going in her diaper. Just in her diaper. On the potty. No big deal.

Then when she's fine with that, try it without the diaper.

[Christi]

@happymama @rachel I didn't really see that either the OP or the other commenters were suggesting over-the-top praise or making it about pleasing mom so much as just wanting to help the child feel secure. Sarcasticarrie's suggestion of a fire truck on the potty seems to me to be a great way to deal with a toy that your kid loves that drives you crazy. Win-win. :-)

[Charisse]

@HappyMama, that's a popular theory in some circles right now, but every kid and every family is different--and many parents have their limit on a lot of these milestones. For myself, for example, I always planned baby-led weaning, but I found I actually had an assumption that it would happen between a year and 18 months. I ended up hitting a personal limit at 2 (which I realize isn't all that late, it was just where I was) and looking for ways to motivate my daughter to wean. And we did.

It's relatively easy to say you want a 1 1/2 year old to potty train only when they're ready and only on their own motivation--and it may work out just great. On the other hand, you may find you have a 3 or 4 year old with no interest and there may be a preschool deadline or you may just find yourself in a place where you genuinely want it to start happening. And while you can't force it, you might in that situation look for ways to encourage your child along. Or you may be like me and find you have a 2 3/4 year old who really wants to wear underwear every day but is scared of pooping in the potty because there was a bad experience one time, and really bummed when she poops in her pants. In our case, using rewards got her to do it, which got her better experiences with it, which got her fully trained and wearing the panties she wanted to wear.

I get why constantly telling your child they are "good" or "smart" or something about their qualities can be problematic, but the idea that you should never use praise or rewards seems (sorry) a little much to me.

[CG]

Others have pointed this out before, but there's a difference between "You used the potty--I'm so proud of your self control" and "You used the potty--you're a good boy."

Not that I am the voice of experience on this particular topic, but it's something I've kept in mind in other learning situations.

[Claire Murphy]

My son is almost 4. He has the peeing in the toilet part down pat. In fact, he just recently started peeing standing up which is both exciting and messy. However, he will not poo on the toilet. We went on vacation and he held it in to the point his stomach was distended. it is very sad and I am at my wit's end with this. I don't know what to do!

At this rate, I am just tossing crapped in underwear and an alarming rate. And I am obsessed with him and his bowels.

Such a grand life I lead.

[Erin]

My 1.5 year daughter has always shown cues of peeing/pooping and we let her go naked in our house a lot. So, recently she started telling me when she needs to pee/poo. I ask her if she wants a diaper on or wants to use the potty. Sometimes she'll walk to the potty, stand in front, and I will try to put her on the potty. Nothing and she sometimes gets upset. So, I put her in the tub. And she will pee for the most part. At 1.5 I don't think there is a need to rush unless there is some sort of deadline (school) but I do think that it's okay to follow the child's lead. Now, if tomorrow or this afternoon my daughter forgets all this, fine. Yes I will be disappointed but I can still present the options to her to let her know she has choices and she can feel in control. Best of luck.

[pnuts mama]

our experience was that we pushed it really hard to get her to potty train when she hit three- that whole summer last year was all about using the potty- books! dolls! videos! discussions! dances! jesus effing christ so much mental energy on using the gd toilet. i was ready for her to use it, school wanted her to be toilet trained, she hated getting changed, etc. it just didn't click for her- she would say "i have to pee!" just as it was coming out. plus it turned into a "pleasing us" thing, which i am not a fan of.

we pushed way too hard, which was dumb for us to do. so, she freaked out and just held it for maybe a whole day almost? and then peed it all out on the couch- it was like austin powers in our living room. so we just backed off, big time- let her go back to diapers til she told us she was ready for pullups. we told her when she was a big enough girl her body would tell her when it was ready for the pee or poop to come out (and sometimes, when you are waiting for the poop to come out, it likes to hear a story...dear god...). then she did pullups during the day and diapers at night- and after a while it just clicked for her, and she could feel the feeling before it was too late, and get herself to potty on time. then underpants during the day except for school where she wore a pull up and pullup at night... then a mean older girl called her a baby for wearing a pullup which upset her quite a bit, so we talked about it and asked her if she was ready to go on the potty at school, so then she wore underpants. AND NOW? at four? underpants even at night! amazing. who would have thought that our kid would be like every other kid and figure it out.

good luck cecily- my husband always says this will be nostalgia someday when she is dyeing her hair and piercing her bellybutton and getting on some emo dudes motorcycle- or joining some neo-con group off to protest equal rights- whatever your worst fear is!

[Cloud]

I don't really have anything on the original topic, since we aren't actively training, and my ~2 y.o. daughter doesn't seem to have any issues with using the potty from time to time.

However, I had to post to tell Claire Murphy about a friend of our family. His parents had a really, really hard time getting him to poop on the potty. He was over 4 before he was fully potty trained. He is now a very successful college kid, doing a multinational internship. I totally get why its so stressful right now to have a kid who's having potty issues. It sounds like you are taking it in stride. I just wanted to tell you to hang in there. He'll figure it out eventually.

[hush]

@CG - Amen (& me, too!) to what you wrote: "I'm looking for the Ellyn Satter of potty training: how to make it a low-key process that isn't stressful and doesn't take a lot of work. Is there such a thing?"

The closest method I've found to this is "Diaper Free Before 3" by Jill M. Lekovic. It's not perfect, but I think there are some good nuggets in there. A couple of interesting premises she relies on: 1) "potty learning" takes place before actual "potty training," and 2) the sooner potty learning begins, the sooner a child will potty train, but the longer it will take. Lekovic's view is that by a child's first birthday she thinks it's appropriate to have a potty chair in the bathroom for the child to sit on with a book or toy - not that per se "potty training" begins at that age, but exposure to and familiarity with the potty and all of the noises and routines of what we do in the bathroom. As the title suggests, the hope is "by 3" - which means an approx. 2-year period of learning & training. Anyway, just an idea I thought I'd share because so far it feels comfortable for me and low-key for DS, though it may be more time-consuming than other approaches and thus unappealing to some.

[Lawprofmom]

@happymama @rachel-- Along with any number of experts, I too am against praising my child for breathing. However, a child who is scared of the potty is not going to lose that fear just because Mom or Dad lowers the boom. You just get a stubborn scared child and a lot of laundry.

With my (almost 4 year old) daughter, fear has largely been conquered by (1) small steps toward the goal; (2) appropriate praise; (3) rewards (including stickers, songs, getting to do other "big kid" things, etc.); and (4) time.

Control, on the other hand, has been conquered by deadlines. For some reason, my daughter does really well with deadlines. Giving up the pacie during the day? Thanksgiving! Peeing in the potty? Christmas! Giving up overnight pacies? Easter! We talk about it a lot in advance and then implement. It's a one-way street once D-Day arrives. No going back.

How do I know if it's fear or control? Well, my kid is pretty verbal and can often tell me. (Me: "What happened? Why did you pee on the floor?" Her: "'Cause I didn't feel like going to the potty.")

Barring that, though, fear-based obstacles, once overcome, stay gone. For example, after she peed in the potty for the first time without a diaper, she was good to go (occasional accidents, but she "got it" and wanted to keep doing it).

Control-based obstacles keep coming back. My daughter currently won't poop in the potty. I got her a fab present and she pooped in the potty . . . once. To get the present. Then it was right back to diapers. She, too, will hold it until she has a diaper on.

Our solution? Time. Now that some time has passed, we've given her a deadline for pooping in the potty: her 4th birthday. We'll see if it works.

BTW, I fully expect that none of this will work for my (almost) 1 year old daughter.

[Rudyinparis]

Sometimes when I go into their room in the morning while their still sleeping I actually do want to praise them for breathing! And existing! But I keep that opinion to myself. (lol)

Pnuts mama, you really do crack me up.

So I guess I got nothin' for the OP.

[kathleen999]

The thing that worked for us was Elmo's potty time video and buying Fisher Price potties that sang songs when they sat down, went pee, stood up. They immediately began using the potty because it was fun. Also helped that Elmo talked so encouragingly about the potty.

I hate to say that products did the trick, as that seems so "throw money at the problem" but really, in our case throwing money at the problem was the answer.

[Erin]

I have a 2.75 y.o. who is shy and goes through periods of strange resistance to things. Like SarcastiCarrie, I find myself continually walking her through things until she is comfortable enough to do them herself (while fighting the same urge to scream). But we talk a lot about her behavior after the fact and how it makes her, me, and other people (if relevant) feel. I've learned through these talks that she doesn't want to be a big girl, because, she says, the big children scare her. This necessitated a whole new verbal strategy for the potty centered around how comfortable panties are in hot weather, which got her wearing panties in one day with almost no accidents. (Somehow I have managed to live in some sort of cave and didn't know about pull-ups until a couple days ago, so we skipped those entirely. Also, her hatred of tight clothes is helping here.) I will also cop to using m&m's as bribery--one m&m for each potty use. She gleefully abused this system for the first week, using the potty up to 4 times in a row (and proving to me that she had admirable bladder control), but we're now in week 3 and she now often forgets about the promised treat at home and uses the potty at daycare without any treats. I'm sure there will be some sort of backsliding and we're still using diapers for poop but right now we're all happy and, thank whatever deity you want, we have had to spend almost no time talking/reading/viewing about the potty.

[SusanOR]

Using the golden rule that toddlers like choices, we got the potty (pink) and a seat for the white potty (the toilet). The best addition was a folding stool that she could manuever in order to step up & get herself on there. Oh, independence! There was a lot of sitting on potties (clothed & unclothed), talking, reading potty books, singing, whatever.

Around 2.5, other kids in daycare started wearing panties (that HELPED tremendously) and she started talking about wanting to wear panties. So we talked about when she was ready to use the potty all the time, she'd get panties.

Was harder to get the pooping in the potty down, whining "I don't have to go" and my response, well, you get to pick which potty to sit on but everyone sits on the potty before we leave the house (go to bed, etc).

Interestingly, at her daycare (which totally supports potty learning & has four! miniature flush toilets for them to choose from) the girls are all in panties but the boys still in diapers or pull ups in her class (2.5-3 yrs). Daycare had to throw out some of her undies with poop accidents, but a couple months later, we're past that.

Other thought: make sure kids' diet fosters pooping -- I cut back her intake of rice & bananas while we were trying to get poop established on the potty, because it made her constipated, which made her more uncomfortable pooping. Summer fruit has been wonderful keeping it soft.

[liz]

Oh! And Potty Time With Bear in the Big Blue House has a great song in it (the potty chair one)

And Oobi has an excellent bathroom episode (mostly about taking baths, but there's an excellent potty-time interlude).

[Irene]

My 16-month old girl likes to accompany me to the toilet, says "pee pee" when I go, and likes to help flush and/or watch the water swirl around. Now I'm wondering, should I get her a little potty of her own, just for practice and familiarity?

[chilled out mama]

For anyone interested in a good 'step-by-step' guide to potty training...i have found this..

http://www.parentingme.com/toiltrng.htm

to be really useful. It looks dullsville, but actually really helps because of the step-by-step approach. My son started off really well, but had a big setback when the tioldet style folddown seat of his potty pinched him on the leg. So we just went back to step 1 (sitting on the potty fully clothed) whilst reading lots of books, watching TV etc, and gradually he became comfortable enough to go bare-butted! I know my tendency is to want to rush ahead the minute there is a glimmer of progress, but this link has helped me to know when is an appropriate time to move on to pullups/underwear etc. Also my son adores this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXkVvZG2Bi0

although it drives me potty (harhar)

[SarcastiCarrie]

Oh, that M&M story reminded me of something.

Potty training wasn't a really big deal in our house (learning to answer questions and then stick with your decisions is a MUCH bigger deal), but when it came time to give stickers, praise, and mark the star chart, we actually praised the action we wanted more (dry diapers) than the other half of it (going on the potty). We were more along the lines of "Good Work on the Dry Diaper" and "Great Job keeping your diaper dry" because the thing done was keeping the diaper dry not the going in the potty. There was praise the first few times he went in the potty, but once we knew he knew what the potty was for, we gave our praise more for the dry diaper than the going in the potty.

Depending on what your particular issue is (accidents in the pants or holding it in), you might want to tailor your praise to the specific act you want (great job keeping your pants dry or good job pooping when you felt the urge). This all depends on whatever specific biological function is the issue (good job staying in your bed all night.

[Cloud]

@Irene- we bought a potty at about 18 months because our daughter was so interested in watching other people on the potty. She sits on it before her bath and sometimes asks to use it. She's 28 months old now. She's pees in the potty most nights and has pooped a couple of times.

We're holding off on the actual training until day care starts in on it (at about 2.5 years) and after baby #2 arrives (at the end of September).

[eta]

Both my kids hated the potty-chairs. They only started to use the potty on the regular toilet when they were tall enough to use a stool to get up there and be stable on their own and when they could do a little pants removal on their own, too. Elder waited until the last possible moment to let go of those pull-ups. He was changing his own pee diapers when I told him that they didn't make his size anymore. Each accident scared him, but when the deadline came, we got through the accidents and within a week we were good. Little Sister, now, she started sitting on the potty to be like Elder when she was too tiny to even get it. She wanted out of the itchy diapers way before her body was ready, though, and we had to talk about how your body tells you it's going to pee. (Thanks, Mo Willams' Time to Pee!) And we all had to wait until she and her body caught up with each other.

That was my story. Best advice I got? Pediatrician asked when my husband learned to use the toilet. I didn't know. "See?" he said, "It just doesn't matter." Not the best way or the only way, to quote Wendell Berry, but it is one way.

Also, I figured by the time they were 16 they'd want to be out of diapers. Oddly, that thought helped me underreact to the accidents that were whacking out Elder. Seriously, though, we didn't have any pressing deadlines, though, so we had the luxury of just waiting out some of the crazy. Our current problem--Little has figured out the best way to stall bedtime is to say she's got to poop. How can I say no to that? Oh, she's a wily one--and about half the time she does poop, so I can't call her on it, either.

Best of luck to OP and everybody waiting until undies are the norm.

[Shelley]

I think it really depends on the age of the kid. Cecily, she's over 3, right? Well, my daughter wouldn't train either, and it turns out her fear was that *she wouldn't be successful.* She found the whole thing so threatening she just didn't want to confront the problem.

So we took her to an amusement park, and told her she got to come back if she used the potty. We bought candy, and told her that she would get candy every time she performed. We told her that it was OK to have potty accidents -- all she had to do was try. If she didn't try, there would be no punishment, but nothing fun would happen (i.e. no playground trips, etc.). Again, accidents were OK, but if she didn't try there would be no reward.

It was over in 5 days flat, and she was night dry about a week later. I would never say that this is The One True Way to do it, but for my very late-trained kid (she was 3.5) it was super-effective.

And I remember at the time, it had me completely flummoxed, so I feel you, I really do.

[Cynthia]

My daughter was afraid of the potty. Big potty, little potty, it didn't matter. Wouldn't go near it and no encouragement, reassurance, peer pressure or potential reward would change her mind. We got lots of family pressure to take away the diapers. But, given my daughter's personality (slow to adapt to change and somewhat perfectionistic), we figured she needed just more time to feel confident. So we stopped worrying about it, and luckily our preschool didn't care. Then one day around 3 1/2, she decided to use the potty, and that was that. No diapers, even at night. And no accidents - ever! So, if circumstances allow, let her work out her fear at her own pace. It'll happen even if it seems impossible now. Good luck!

[Lawprofmom]

Oooo, speaking of throwing money and M & M's at problems, we did both!

Before the Christmas "no more diapers for ducky!" deadline, we watched two videos ad nauseum: Go Potty Go! and Potty Power for girls. Both have songs that explain the steps fairly specifically.

On D-day we offered up one M & M for each successful potty. She went for it hook, line, and chocolate. She eventually forgot about the M & M's after a few weeks.

Finally, we give her control. We don't make her to sit on the potty, unless a long car ride is ahead or it's been ages since she peed. Instead, we remind her to "listen to her body." She got it quickly, and she tells me when she needs to go.

Oh, and remember how we told her that as of her 4th birthday the poop would need to go in the potty? Tonight she told my mom she needed to poop, and asked for a diaper. Mom tried to get her to sit on the potty instead. She informed my mom that "the poop *won't* come out in the potty-- I'm only three!"

[pnuts mama]

i had forgotten how our rule was one jellybean for #1 and two for #2...see how six months blurs the memory of what was front and center for so long a year ago?

lawprofmom- yes. listening to her body and giving her control was huge.

shelley- we also downplayed accidents- i believe we used the line from billy madison "it's cool to pee your pants" about 600 times here. i almost began to believe it! i did not want her to be ashamed of what was going to happen sometimes.

to be fair, my kid has a million irrational fears over what seems like everything- we try to go the middle ground as much as possible- when it seems valid, we validate it and try and talk her through it and help her figure out what's going on. we tell her that lots of things are scary, and it's ok to be scared of stuff, things we get scared of. other stuff, we try not to let her fears overwhelm her and control *her*- we do a lot of what i call 'hostage negotiation'- as she's gotten older it has gotten better, as she is able to understand things more. thank god.

rudyinparis- likewise, my friend, likewise.

[suzanna]

I'd like to second @Hush's recommendation for "Diaper Free Before 3". I think it's a great, gentle approach to potty 'training'. Treats the whole thing as similar to how we teach children to be independent in other ways- gradually introduce the idea, keep it low-key, normal, etc. This approach worked really well with my twin boys, in that they are diaper free (at 24 months they were probably 75% there, 100% at 27 months) and it involved very little struggle (lots of messes, but that's different!)

For a fear of potty, I would talk to your daughter, acknowledge her fear, and just get her used to the potty chair (way less scary than toilet in my opinion) in a low key manner. Have her sit next to it, on it with diaper, have teddy sit on it, mum sit on it, etc. Move on to a quick sit before bath. If your living situation allows this, just skip the potty altogether and have her run around naked outside, so she can squat in the grass and go. Introduce the potty outside. If you can convince her to not wear a diaper she might decide that using the potty is less annoying/scary then having wet pants.

[Cassie]

I'd like to third the recommendation for "Potty-Free Before Three" - it is very low key, low pressure, and very respectful of the child. My little boy was pooping exclusively on the potty by 12 months, in underwear at home by around 18 months, and in underwear all day (and dry most nights) by 27/28 months.

[DD]

My big thing was to take the "Big girl" terminology completely out of the potty training. A lot of 2 year olds are kind of ambivalent about whether they want to be big or not. Why should I turn potty training into a big choice about whether to become big or not, when surely she is going to become big anyway, regardless? Instead, what we really both wanted was for her pants/underwear to stay dry and clean. Making potty training just about wet and dry "fixed" it for me about what to say (i.e. how to praise success without making accidents seem like failure. How to make sure potty training wasn't about pleasing me.) It put us both on the same side. As we were getting in the car, I could say, "Is Elmo (underwear) still dry?" and she would say YESS!! (thumbs up from both of us.) If there was an accident, it was just, "Uh oh. Elmo got a little wet. That's OK, we can wash him." And it was VERY clear to me once she was doing it, that the potty training was really her job. She worked very hard at it, and I was just the coach and encourager. It was really cool to watch and be there for.

DD

[Cassie]

I should add: the "Potty-Free Before Three" thing seems like a long, drawn-out affair (so, in our case, from sitting on potty at around 9 months to out of diapers/nappies by 2.5) but it really is not two years of intensive, all-the-time potty training. It's more like learning to eat adult food - it's a slow, gradual process that you learn about a tiny bit each day. Also, my time scale up there is just my one kid - each kid will find his or her own pace within the process. But it's not an unusual time scale for this method of potty learning. And finally, yes to the "oh dear, Elmo got wet. No problem we can wash him." - Lekovic, the author of the "Before Three" book suggests avoiding talking about "accidents" altogether - it's very much "Oh, you peed? Ok, let's finish off in the potty" (to get the connection between the peeing and the potty) without any mention of the mess, unless the child seems worried about the mess in which case you do as @DD says, and just say "No problem, it can be cleaned up."

[paola]

I'd just like to say that although popping a child on the potty repeatedly over a couple of years does get them used to the concept of the toilet being the place to do one's business, there is nothing wrong with waiting till the child is physically ready (dry morning nappy is a good indication that the child knows how to hold on) before introducing the toilet/potty (also one less thing to do).

Both of my children trained without any fuss and surprisingly quickly once the time was right, and had been placed on the toilet only a handful of times.

They have always joined us in the toilet, climbed up and flushed for us, peered inside, helped clean it, which I beleive has helped take the fear away. Using the loo was just the natural next step.

[SarcastiCarrie]

One more thing I read about somewhere...if there is a genuine/real fear of the toilet, buy a toilet gnome or other somesuch thing to take the fears away. You could wave a sparkly wand over the toilet before you sit down to ward the fears away or something. Whatever it is she's scared of, the wand could remove or the gnome could guard against. And for all that's right in the world, keep her away from automatically flushing toilets until she's good and past her fear!

[LauraJ]

My daughter was terrified of going on the toilet. She would sit on it for hours, hold her pee ALL. DAY. LONG. at her friends' house and then have an accident when she walked in our door. But she wouldn't go on the toilet. She had just turned 3 and had been saying she was going to use the potty when she turned 3. We were in a co-op situation with 5 other families for 3 full days a week and the other kids had all been potty-trained for months, even up to a year. She was excited about the prospect of being a "big girl" and wearing underwear and using the potty but she was just terrified of actually going. In the end, what happened was that she was in the co-op with one of the other moms and that mom knew she really had to go and she actually held her on the toilet. She said it was awful (I don't think I could have done it) and my daughter was really upset but then she went in the toilet and was very excited and we never really looked back.

We had talked a lot about where the pee/poop goes after it's in the toilet and I think that helped. I don't really have any other words of wisdom though. If it had been left up to me she would probably still be in diapers since I don't think I could have actually held her on while she was hysterical (it's just not our style). But if you can someone get her to go somehow (we did a lot of reading on the potty and still do to this day!), hopefully she'll figure out it's not a scary thing.

For the record, she went through the same fear with pooping, even after she was happy to tinkle on the potty without a problem. She would often poop in her underwear just after or before sitting on the potty. One time, without her noticing, my husband just sort of flipped it into the potty when she was on her way off and pretended that she had actually pooped in the potty. We celebrated it as a "success" and she did fine after that.

Good luck! This was one of the biggest parenting challenges we had but it was over with surprisingly quickly once it actually happened.

[libbyllama]

Oh, how I love you all.

@pnuts mama-thank you for the laugh this morning

@CG-thank you for expressing, so succinctly, the difference between behavior (great self-control!) and person (good boy!). I will be using this example with my husband and in-laws.

My DS just turned 2 and just shows no signs of "getting" the toilet. I have training pants and Elmo DVD on standby, but haven't started stressing about it yet. We have family visiting now, but after they leave, we'll start watching Elmo as an intro. For now I'm happy he will agree to be changed into a "fresh" diaper again. I hate those phases where they freak out on the changing table.

[TodayWendy]

@pnuts mama, "(and sometimes, when you are waiting for the poop to come out, it likes to hear a story...dear god...)" - I almost fell out of the chair laughing!

We went through a brief phase of using M&M's as rewards - then I discovered that my husband was eating them all. More recently the problem is getting her off the potty, I think she's trying to be all controlling "Mommy will sit and read to me as long as I'm sitting on the potty, so I will sit here all day".

[SarcastiCarrie]

Oh, I remember putting stars on the chart when I went on the potty because "that's what we do". Look at me! I keep my underpants dry. Be proud of me! I heard a lot of "Good Job, Mommy." It was cute and sort of creepy at the same time.

[Amy]

I am absolutely panicked because my daughter starts preschool in 6 weeks, they expect the kids to be potty trained, and she cannot seem to get to the potty in time to poop. Constant, little poops in her underwear, all day long. I know she senses my frustration. She's had major constipation issues for ages, though I think we finally sorted that out by eliminating bananas and apples, but I now wonder if she has encopresis. So hard to know, since all her peers are also pooping in their pants.

I figure, these preschools HAVE to expect varying levels of bathroom ability. Right? Rght?! Man. She has to be able to wipe herself, too. Six weeks. What to do.

[DD]

Constipation issues for ages, and little poops in the underwear all day long does sound like encopresis -- I would check with your pediatrician.

[pnuts mama]

amy- how old is your daughter? i have no idea about any medical issues and i imagine it would be a great idea to follow up with your ped on that.

but to answer your school question, this time last year i was totally freaking out over the same thing for the pnut (she had just turned three in july)- she was able to pee in the toilet (rarely pooped yet) but was scared to go at school (until she went with a friend, then it was cool, what a girl i have, huh?) for a variety of reasons. anyway, to give you context, her preschool this past year was for 3 hours in the afternoon after lunch- so i would make sure she peed before school, and when she started in september, i put a pull up on her with elastic waisted loose fitting capris on her- easy for her to get on and off on the chance that she'd have to go. i encouraged her to use the potty, and keep her pullup dry, but assured her that it was no big deal if she peed in the pullup.

i spoke with her teachers and the school's director and let them know she was trained but still had the occasional accident so to be safe i had her in a pull up for a few weeks, and i didn't expect them to change her. they said it was fine- and it was! it really was- look, most centers and schools say "potty trained" cause they don't want to be changing diapers- also they don't want to have to touch kids in their private areas (some can't depending on their policy)- *BUT* any teacher/director/assistant knows that little kids have accidents, and they are prepared for that- and they are ok with accidents as long as you are honest with them as to the fact that she is about 95% trained. the pooping issue i would talk to your ped about- good luck!

[Michelle]

This is the perfect Q&A for me right now. I have a boy who is almost 3.5 and STILL not trained and a girl who just turned 2 and has already peed in the potty (meanwhile her big brother will pee at school, but not at home).

My boy has been afraid and just generally negative about peeing on the potty. He will sit on it, but generally wants a reward (his Dad started giving him M&Ms and now he expects them).

I have generally just given up. I guess I figure I can make myself CRAZY for the next six months trying to get him trained or I can wait for peer pressure (at school) and time to take its course and he will figure it out.

That's not to say we don't talk about the potty, read about the potty, watch potty videos, etc. We do, I have just given up on the expectation that he will train "normally".

I should also add that my beautiful boy was a late talker (2 before ANY words - significant speech and occupational therapy) and had some fine motor delays. He is not on the spectrum (thank goodness) but he is definitely a bit behind...and that's okay. I have just had to let go of my "normal" and accept my little boy for who he is.

My daughter, on the other hand, seems to be training much more normally, and hopefully that will help her brother along.

Maybe I am just too tired (as a working mother of two toddlers) but I say just relax and let them come to it on their own. Fortunately, I have a preschool that supports this outlook!

[Amy]

Wow, thank you for the feedback on the possible encopresis ... my daughter is about to turn three, and I've read that it's very hard to get that diagnosis until at least age 4. Has anyone been through this problem with their child? What can I expect as far as testing, diagnosis, and treatment if we get that far? All of her peers at school are also pooping in their pants. But it's the little poops all day long that worry me.

The pullups are a good idea. But what about changing the pullup? Will they help her with that? They won't just let her spend the morning with a poopy butt, I imagine. Guess I really need to grill the school and see what's what.

[Clio]

RE: I'm looking for the Ellyn Satter of potty training - and potty training in general

I follow Ellyn's model of feeding (I work for Ellyn Satter) and it makes all the difference in our family.

I got off to a few false starts with potty training. Against my better judgement (never a good idea) I followed the standard advice about stickers, rewards and cheering and it all backfired.

I backed off and decided to implement a division of responsibility. I decided where, provided opportunities and made the atmosphere pleasant. Whether or not he used the potty was up to my son.

While I was making my game plan, my son, on his own, decided to move to underpants and we haven't looked back. He usually lets me know when he has to go. I also ask him if he needs to go occasionally (before nap, before we run errands, etc.). I keep the bathrooms at home organized and pleasant. I make sure I know where the bathrooms are when we are out and about and have a plan in place. It works for us!

With my daughter, I will make sure she sees me using the restroom. When she shows signs of readiness I will regularly but without pressure offer to let her use her potty. I will keep it low-key and trust that she will bring herself along.

[Jennifer P]

I am in the same boat, have an almost 4 year old boy who refuses to go anywhere near the potty. He will not even sit on it fully clothed. He refuses to pee outside, or even in the tub. We have tried every possible bribe we can think of and nothing has worked.

After the two of us (my son and I) almost had a nervous breakdown last weekend trying to potty train him for pre-K in 5 weeks, we decided to lay off it for a while. (The first day he went on the floor twice, second day he held it in so long then started hysterically crying because he had to pee so badly. When I tried to physically put him on the toilet, more crazy hysterics.) He is also a timid, shy kid who needs lots of encouragement, and I think he is scared he won't succeed. He sat on the potty once when he was about 2, and that's it. I am generally a very patient person, but for some reason this refusal to go anywhere near the potty (or put underwear on) was making me crazy (which of course made my son totally stressed out.)

What we are focusing on now is him changing his own clothes and all of the other things that will happen in his new pre-K class. I try to get him to change his own pull-up, but he generally won't. I don't change him unless he asks for it. He knows at school he needs to use the potty and do lots of things himself that he gets a lot of help with at home. We also have a chart that we x off the days until school starts. This weekend we are going to go look at his new classroom and the bathroom. The last thing I have been trying (with some success yesterday) is putting underwear on a doll, and teaching the doll how to pee on the potty. He seemed excited about this and wanted to show him how girls versus boys use the potty.

We did have a "say goodbye to diapers" party last weekend but it didn't seem to help much. He is in pull-ups full time now. He has, however, woken up every single morning totally dry since our potty-training-disaster weekend, so maybe it wasn't a total disaster?

Honestly, I would just leave it alone if I didn't have the school looming ahead. He seems to really understand what is going on with the deadline though, so we hope that our combination of tactics will get us at there in time.

[Shelli]

Bribery, plain and simple. Malka would use the potty for pish-pish, but it took buying a special toy, and chocolate ice cream to finally poop in the potty. At three years and 8 months old.

figure out what your child's favorite thing they don't normally have is, and offer it as a reward for going in the potty.

The bribe will wane over time.

[fahmi]

We haven't had any issues with our son being scared of the toilet during potty training, but I wanted to throw out a thought:

could the child have a vivid imagination?

Growing up, I was terrified of going to the toilet anywhere other than home. I had somehow convinced myself that if you weren't fast enough, a blue/green hand will come out of the toilet, grab you and pull you in. I would be nervous about the hand at home, too, but I knew I was fast enough at home. But because I was so scared of that hand, I rarely went to the toilet outside of the house (lots of accidents until I learned how to go not sitting down...no mean feat for a girl) I clearly remember being this scared around 5 to 8 years old.

30 years later, I still vaguely remember the hand when I go to the toilet.

I wonder if this girl has something going on with her imagination too