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caramama

@marsupial jones - Happy birthday to your little one!

@Charisse - I have also always appreciated your comments about sleep. My girl definitely falls into the camp of kids who need to be awake x amount of hours before they sleep again. In fact, we have recently implemented the rule that the nanny wake her up between 3 and 3:30 no matter when she goes down for a nap. I got the idea from you! It's helped our bedtime routine to go back to a reasonable amount of time (1 hour on average, which is good for us). The bedtime routine goes quick on the weekends, when she does not nap for either my husband or me (what is up with the not napping for us but naps fine for the nanny?).

Cloud

@caramama- yeah, we had napus interruptus yesterday. And bedtime went from involving me laying next to her while she plays with my hair for 30+ minutes to me laying next to her while she plays with my hair for 3 minutes.

If she hadn't been so cranky all afternoon, I'd be seriously considering getting rid of naps. As it is, I'm just wondering if we should start encouraging her to wake up from the naps a little earlier.

I think your Pumpkin won't nap for you and Londo but will nap for the nanny because she's excited to be spending time with her favorite people. Take it as a compliment.

@akeeyu, @hedra- BEFORE I had a baby, I thought twins would be nice because I'd only have to be pregnant and do the whole maternity leave juggle at work once. Then I had a baby and I realized that this was an insane thought.

But there are a lot of things I thought before I had a baby that I know realize were unbelievably stupid. I try to remember this when a childless relative says something unbelievably stupid to me. I am not always successful.

hedra

@cloud, I always give them a pass if a) they don't have kids, or b) they have ever had IF issues. But when they have not one but two kids, never had to struggle to get or stay pregnant, and STILL think twins is a dream... uh. Okay. I try to remind myself that there's no accounting for taste, too.

Sarah Park

Two year-old twin girls here. This doesn't happen every day for us, but I find that when it does happen, it seems to be related to the nap being LONG, LATE IN THE DAY, and TOO CLOSE TO DINNERTIME. I think the blood-sugar point that a lot of posters have mentioned could be key, and as well as the circadian rhythm thing.

If I keep naptime early, like 1 to 3:30 pm, this doesn't seem to happen as much. Also, I let them hang out in their cribs (plus crib tents - obviously key) until they're good and awake. Sometimes they'll wake up crying, but end up chatting with each other and wake up more gently that way. I do think this wouldn't be possible without the crib tents -- they seem to provide a buffer that they sub-consciously appreciate. They can interact, but still have their own space, without the stress of having to defend anything.

Good luck! I feel for you -- I have recurring anxiety dreams about one of my twins, and guess it must have to do with what a strain it can be to try to raise two little people of the same age, at the same time.

sudru

My almost 2 year old wakes up badly from naps, doesn't matter the length of the nap. And I don't think he's angry, I think he's both working things out in his sleep and then transitioning to being awake. Lately he wakes up drenched in sweat. I've started to ask him if he was dreaming, he doesn't know what that means, but he's repeating it back to me...giving him a word for what is my idea for what is going on. If it’s real bad, I do nurse him for 5 or 10 minutes, otherwise we just walk around, talking and observing. No twins for me, so I can’t help there, but I wish you well!

Cori

Nothing new to add, but I agree with the low blood sugar idea. My almost two year old wakes up in a terrible mood at times and often refuses to eat anything. I try to get him to eat something (esp. protein) before the nap and that seems to help. There have been a couple of times where I have actually bribed him with a small handful of chocolate chips to get him to eat something, anything when he wakes up in a tantrum. Once he eats something he'll usually drink some milk and then have a normal snack. I'm not proud of it, but it works.

Luann

once again, I'm living in the Moxie-giest. My son rarely naps at home anymore (4/5 of the week at daycare, he's the napping champ and sweet as pie when he wakes up.) When we do get him to nap on weekends, it's because he fell asleep in the car or stroller. And he is an inconsolable mess when he wakes up. The worst is if he falls asleep on an airplane. Some parents pray their kid will sleep on the plane, but we don't - because we know he'll be a screaming hollering melting mess for 20 minutes after, and all of our fellow passengers will get to share the joy.

Distractions (going outside, singing, games) might work for a few seconds, but the howling comes back ("Hold you! No! Hold you! No") The only thing that has worked, looking back, is food. So cry hole into pie hole is my new motto!

Redheaded Wonder

Hey, I don't have time to read all the other comments, so sorry if I repeat. My older 2 are 3 & 4, and they wake like this pretty often. I've recently discovered that needing to pee pushes them over the edge. They are both train(ing) and get VERY tense about relieving themselves even if they are sleeping with a diaper on. Once they pee, they immediately stop screaming.

My 3 yo is very verbal, and he has been known to scream "I just want somebody to make me go to sleep!!!" and "I AM ANGRY!!" So much fun fun fun!!

Sometimes introducing a different sensory feeling helps mine. Like a strong drink of very cold orange juice through a straw (I always otherwise dilute, but not for this - strong taste) Sucking the straw is sensory. Deep muscle rubs in a downward motion (not up and down) hand massages, etc. For some reason, my guys in particular don't want to hear noises - it's like an assault so I don't try to talk or sing until they appear ready.

It sounded like one gets worked up by the other, so if it were me... I might try to go to the calm one FIRST so then you don't have 2 on your hands. It might seem cruel and counter-intuitive to walk away (even momentarily) from your child while they are screaming for you... it may be easier in the long run if you have a quiet activity ready, like coloring, or a snack for the less needy child, and then you can really focus on the one who's losing it. Get them separated.

In my case the hardest part of learning how to deal with having 3 children so close in age (they're all under 4) is that there are 3 of them, 1 of me, and like it or not we HAVE to take turns. I used to feel guilty... but a friend talked me out of it. And she was right. I will never be the mother of 1 child, and the faster we all accept it... the greater the peace will be. There is nothing I can do about it. When all three are screaming... I really can only respond step by step. Try not to let the crying get to you if you can help it.

FWIW, I also don't try and treat the children "equally" - they are 3 different people with 3 unique qualities and differing needs. Sometimes one might need me more than another one does in a given moment, and that's ok. Over the long haul, they all get lots of love and attention, and I've tried to give up being hard on myself for how I am acting in one little pie slice of a moment in time. (As in "I just spent 10 minutes calming Thing #1, and now I 'owe' Thing #2 10 minutes to keep it equal.)

Hope this passes soon, hang in there!

C

I have not read all the comments, but I just wanted to say that at different stages, all 3 of my kids were like this after daytime naps.

Some stayed in this stage longer than others.

I don't think it is anger - I think they wake disoriented.

Hang in there.

AmyinTexas

Have not read comments but have two things to add...

Yes, we call it post-nappy syndrome. All three have had it. My boys worse than my daughter. My youngest (2 now) worse than his older brother.

Have you tried walking him outside right after nap? I find when my youngest really gets himself worked up after a nap (and right now he's in the throes of the "I want water! No, no water!!!!" stage, so there's a lot of getting worked up) if I walk him outside he's quickly distracted, and though there might be some whimpering when we go back inside, he's calm enough to communicate what he needs.

Secondly (and I'm noooooo expert, but I'm going to throw this out there), have you thought about his being on the autism spectrum? My cousin's son exhibited some of the behavior you've described, and he was found to be on the lower end of it. Just a thought.

karla

Hmmm, maybe I am a terrible mom, because I just finished reading so many moms say that their kids wake up crying from their naps and it is terrible. And it sounds like the terrible part is trying to console them when they are just inconsolable. I say, ignore them. In the end, if they cry for 30 minutes, but you can get some things done and block them out, why not? It's not like they just got hurt or they are scared. They are just crabby. Let them be crabby on their own time, and they can come to you when they have calmed down and can act reasonably. Is that totally mean? I don't know, I guess I just think, "Reward good behavior". Maybe I have become callous, because my son also has night terrors, and they become worse when I have tried to comfort him. It was freeing to know there is nothing I can do, and I might as well go work on dinner.

hedra

@karla, the problem is when you know it's not conscious behavior - it brings up a different underlying situation behind the question of 'help, how much, ignore it, or walk away?' This is a big case of 'know thy child'. I have one child who would be shattered if I walked away, and needs me nearby because that shows him that I'm not scared of his freak-outs, which makes them less scary for him, too (he reads my leaving as 'Mommy is too scared to stay with me, this must be REALLY bad'). But another child needs to be alone to feel like her feelings are safe - she reads my absence as 'Mommy knows I can handle this myself, I'm okay' and will now (at 4 1/2) extract herself from the situation to go be angry by herself (or freaked out, or whatever).

On my side, it also matters if it is a 'bad behavior' thing (that is, is there any choice on their side involved?), or just a 'reaction from biology' thing. I'm always looking for the need underneath, on both sides, really - but how to respond differs. If they are acting out to get their way, that's one thing, and if they are disoriented and panicking out of some biological misfire, that's entirely another. And yet even in the latter case, staying with them isn't always the right answer for every child. Reading them and knowing what works for them, and how it ties into the entire family function, that's where we start. For one of my kids, it is very much 'hey, I can go make dinner now' without guilt (now that I've really digested the fact that she NEEDS me to go away, and that's the most loving thing I can do for her), and for another it is very much 'okay, now I'm stuck here (but he is fine if I think about something else, he just needs me nearby - not touching or interacting, just present). And for the other two, it is somewhere in between (Mr G needs me to be ENGAGED with him when he's upset - delving and exploring the reaction and feelings; and Miss R wants me to Witness and Reflect, but not engage - it's all coming out my way, she just needs to know that I Got It.)

Anyway, I don't think your reaction is wrong or bad or callous, it just reflect the child you have and what you have learned about how your situation works. And sometimes showing that you trust them to deal with their feelings is the most empowering thing you can do. Not letting it be a stick they can beat you with later also isn't a bad thing. How that expresses with each family will differ based on the people involved.

Megz

Sounds like my daughter when she would wake up from naps too early or in the wrong part of her sleep cycle. Is he waking up on his own or is something or somebody waking him up?

I agree with the TV idea. You could sit inbetween the boys and cuddle them while they watch something. If you feel guilty about holding one and not the other, how about insisting that neither of them is allowed to sit on your lap but they can each sit beside you and cuddle you that way.

Another idea - you have a bedtime routine, how about a wake up routine too? A cuddle then a story. Then a big stretch up as high as you can, then crouch down low and another big jump up high. Then a silly dance to shake the sleepiness away.

If he's anything like my daughter he'll just reject all that, but maybe if you get the other brother involved in it, he might decide to join in as well.

Or maybe get a special toy that he tucks in to bed at naptime, then after his nap he needs to wake the toy up. Ask him each day "how does the toy want to be woken up?" Kiss or tickle or whispering or shaking or something silly that boys like to do. "Does the toy want a drink?". Get him to choose which colour (toy) cup. Which (imaginary) drink.

Of course if he's anything like my daughter the toy and cup will get thrown across the room in a tantrum.

Good luck.

Julie

Late to the party here...but yes. Went through this for a couple years. Not every day, but aboutt 2-3 times per week at the very least. At home, at preschool....it was awful. The only thing I noticed about any type of pattern was that it usually happened when he was overstimulated/overtired. So days with horrific post-nap crying resulted in an earlier bedtime (by say, 30 minutes or so) because my suspicion was that he was still tired, still wanting to sleep but not really knowing yet how to cycle back into a deeper sleep during the daytime.

Also noted that it was often related to a poor eating day. So we try really hard to stuff some kind of food into him for lunch - even if it's just some milk - right before his afternoon nap and sometimes that would eliminate the horrible crying as well. We have a hell of a time getting him to eat....but as Hedra said, protein is our golden ticket. Cheese, yogurt, edamame, even ice cream. Ice cream is actually awesome - some protein and a whole lot of fat to fill that tummy up. We try to stay relaxed about it though because as soon as he sees me hang my hat on getting food into him, he closes down shop.

He's finally (for the most part, not completely of course) grown out of the worst of it, I think. Wait, did I say that? I didn't say that.

Bella

@hedra: YOU ROCK. It never ceases to amaze me how comforted I am by a like-minded twin-mother who simply says, "It gets easier." I'm EXACTLY at the 3 1/4 age with my boys and it HAS become far more delightful and universes away from what it was like the first year, but damn, it's still a lot of emotional work (less physical now). And I remain, like you, horrified when someone at the park or store coos "Oooooh I ALWAYS wanted twins and SO wished I had them." I never hold back from saying "Be careful what you wish for..." But of course, it is impossible to explain to people how I can be equal parts horrified by the idea of mothering twins (oh the guilt, the stress, the unrelenting neediness that could NEVER BE SATISFIED) and deeply, deeply grateful that it was, in the end, what I got dealt. Anyway, I just wanted to thank you for your last comment and so many other posts from you that help me see to the other side and smile with anticipation.

akeeyu

Oh, re the twins/needs thing?

Sometimes when F needs comfort, I talk to M. If I'm holding M with one hand, I roll a ball for F. If F is a giant clingon, I read M a book with my non-patting hand. If M needs first aid or urgent cleanup, I sing a song for F.

It leads to a lot of "conversations" with the non-holding baby, but since F is the clingon and M is conversational...eh.

It's not a perfect balance, but sometimes it's "Well, I'm giving this child X...what else is LEFT?"

Sara

I have no advice, only sympathy. My daughter (now 4) acts like that sometimes when she wakes up in the middle of the night. She actually seems to be still asleep when she does it, and we've never found a good solution except to wait for her to either fall back (all the way) asleep or to wake up properly, at which point she'll start acting entirely sane (for a 4-year-old). She never remembers the episodes, but they're pretty awful for the rest of us! Good luck!

Maeve

Oh, more sympathy from a twin mom here, but not much practical advice (which you've got loads of above). One of my 23 month boys went through that a lot a couple of months ago, would just wake up wretchedly sad. Fortunately nursing and cuddling worked.
I haven't yet done the bump down the stairs, but that's because I still carry them both downstairs at the same time when needed. Of course, I also wear wrist guards because of a nasty case of tendinitis (De Quervain's) that mysteriously just won't quite clear up. Oh right, not so mysteriously. I'm wrangling two babies at once, who are constantly lurching here and there, requiring split-second catches and jugglings and luggings. Maybe I should start bum-walking downstairs.
And I hate the conflicting needs. Particularly when one is writhing and crying on the diaper-changing table and the other is crying and clinging on to my pants leg, trying to climb up the table. Then I get angry. Which is dumb and doesn't help. Sigh. I also hate when one is crying miserably and the other just wants to keep playing. I guess I need to work on empathy for each other, but they show it in other cases, so I dunno.
What I found has helped is to reassure them that there is enough love for everyone and that everyone's needs will get met. Or maybe that just reassures and calms me down, which is half -- or quarter -- the battle. Good luck!

Angela

I will nth the comment about the TV. I don't agree with using the TV as a babysitter but as someone who has a very hard time waking up - the TV is a wonder. It allows me to slowly wake up and figure out what is going on. If you start talking to me and making me think, I get really grumpy and cranky. This is also in the morning and not just for naps. Another solution is to read a book with the kid still in bed so he wakes up gradually.

op

Hey everyone, OP here. I hope it's not too late to say thank you so much for all the emotional support and thoughtful advice. I knew I needed to brainstorm, but I didn't realize how badly I also needed to hear "this is really tough." AND "it does get better." Especially from other twin moms.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a few of your ideas, and I really have to go back and make a complete list for myself. But here's what I know we've already tried:

He eats lunch right before nap, and it's a substantial lunch. And I offer milk when he wakes up, though possibly I should already have it in my hand when I walk in the room. I think one issue is he's not crazy about milk anymore... maybe if I add a dash of chocolate syrup at naptime.

Also, I usually transfer them both to the sofa and sit in between them. That's actually been our routine for a long time, and it works well for the babysitter, at least. But it doesn't always work for me - often they just try to climb all over me (and push the other one off) in that position too. I think the "I shouldn't have to share you when I neeeeeeed you" emotions are too strong when I'm in the equation.

He does snap out of a bad mood whenever we go outside, but unfortunately, we can't get outside right away in our setup. Our apartment is several flights up. Going out means getting all the diapers changed & shoes on & last minute toys they MUST take with them but of course can't find, I can't see it taking less than 1/2 hour, and they'd just cry and beg to be picked up the whole time we were getting ready instead.

I'm very intrigued by the idea of comforting the easy one first. Also, by not going in at all until they start talking to each other; that was our approach when he used to wake up crying every morning, and it finally worked. I'll just have to decide which method to try first.

I'm trying to keep television as a last resort, because I'm already using that for at least 1/2 hour while I... er... cook dinner. And then sometimes I... er... let them watch another 1/2 hour in the morning, because *I'm* all tired and groggy.

Which reminds me: I have always been terrible at waking up! My family used to tiptoe around me until after breakfast, and if they did try to talk to me, I would either grunt or snap at them. So I should obviously relate. Although to my knowledge my mother never took it personally; maybe because I didn't insist on following her around to take my misery out on her. Or maybe because we just didn't have the same background of angst in our relationship.

While I don't know if I see his post-nap behavior as angry, per se - it does strike me more as extreme grogginess, disorientation, not quite being ready to come back to reality - it's completely plausible that he has anger stored up in general. As for the suggestion that I might never have been taught how to express or deal with anger myself? Dead. On.

So that's worth exploring anyway, because it will obviously be an issue when handling / teaching my kids how to handle their own anger.

Thanks, once again.

anon

It's not a direct answer, but the question reminded me of a book series they have at our library - "When I feel...." They have the "When I feel angry" and "When I feel sad" at our library. I got them at this age, and I've been meaning to get it again to deal with a 3 1/2 year old bout of being aggressive when not getting one's way. At 2 1/2, I'm not sure how much the story meant to him - but I found it helpful in learning to talk to him about his feelings (and to think about my own). It's written by a licensed social worker I believe. The angry book talks a lot about how it is okay to feel anger, but sometimes how we express it gets into trouble, and here are alternatives. Like I said, doesn't answer the nap issue itself, but the discussion of anger brought it to mind.

Here's a link to Amazon (of course if you want to buy it use Moxie's link :) ) - http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=node%3D4&field-keywords=sometimes+i+feel+angry&x=0&y=0

neil

This exact thing has been happening off and on for a long time with my DS (just turned 2). He used to wake up talking to himself and happy, but for long stretches of time (like right now) he would wake from naps or in the morning pretty unhappy and inconsolable. One thing for sure is it's partially tied to not getting enough sleep - if he's napping and wakes after an hour, he's sad and upset. If he manages to get two hours in, he tends to wake up in a better mood, or the crying is very short-lived and he bounces back quickly.

Besides this, I wonder if it's related to transitions. For the longest time he's not enjoyed transitioning - it doesn't matter if the thing he's transitioning to is really awesome (except for TV, as some others have pointed out), he'll get squirmy. So maybe it's related to the transition from sleep to wakefulness that's causing the problem, at least for our boy.

I wish I had some suggestions, but besides TV, getting him outside, and making sure not to go in until he's fully awake, we haven't found anything that works.

Beth

This is a very late post but might be helpful. My son usually wakes up so cranky in the morning and after naps, and makes me feel like a terrible mother when I can't comfort him!

Dr. Ferber's "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems" book has an answer for the moodiness. Some kids wake up from Stage IV sleep, a deep sleep that often makes you feel disoriented upon waking. Some kids wake up from a lighter Stage II sleep feeling happy & refreshed. You can't change it, that's just how his sleep cycles work. It was such a relief to have a SCIENTIFIC answer!

By the way, this book was a lifesaver because it alerted me to medical issues around my one year old's sleep problems. In his case, it was recurrent ear infections with ear fluid that lingered for weeks. He's such a sensitive, hyper-alert kid that he physically couldn't sleep due to the fluid. The pediatrician argued with me about this for a long time. Once my son got tubes, his sleeping improved right away.

But alas we still suffer with the morning crankies :)

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  • My expertise is in helping people be who they want to be, with a specialty in how being a parent fits into everything else. I like people. I like parents. I think you're doing a fantastic job. The nitty-gritty of what you do with your kids is up to you, although I'm happy to post questions here to get data points of how you could try approaching different stages, because, let's face it, this shit is hard. As for me, I have two kids who sleep through the night and can tie their own shoes. I've been a married SAHM, a married freelance WAHM, a divorcing WOHM, a divorced WOHM, and now a WAHM again. I'm not buying the Mommy Wars and I'll come sit next to you no matter how you're feeding your kid. When in doubt, follow the money trail. And don't believe the hype.
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