Q&A: religion differences in families

In the aftermath of Easter and the winding down of Passover, Michaela writes:

"I'm struggling with how to deal with the varying religious beliefs in our family -- namely, that we have none (or very few) and that our parents, particularly our mothers, have very strong beliefs. My husband and I were both raised Catholic, and even got married in a Catholic mass (albeit largely for sentimental reasons rather than religious ones).

In the almost 10 years since then, we have both rejected our religious upbringings due largely to our values re: the role of women, gay marriage, etc. We've been open with our families about this process, and they respect our decision -- though they are sorry that we don't share their faith. The more time has gone on, the less comfortable I've become with Christianity in general. (We've pondered checking out a Unitarian church but haven't actually gotten off our butts to do it.)

Where this gets problematic for me (much more so than for my husband) is around holidays - particularly Easter and Christmas. I carry enough residual Catholicism that I'm uncomfortable w/ the whole Easter bunny/chocolate/presents model of things... but also not at all interested in talking to my child about Jesus, the cross, etc. And of course for our moms -- both of whom have wonderful relationships w/ our nearly 3-year-old daughter -- Jesus and the cross are the central message of Easter.

So I guess my question is two-fold: How do we observe holidays in a way that is meaningful to us and provides some worthwhile ritual for our daughter? And then how do we deal with the varying practices in our family? I don't want the grandmas to feel as though they can't talk about their beliefs with our daughter, but I'd like them to avoid proselytizing... and I'm just not sure where that line is."

There are a couple of aspects to this question. I'm going to start with a comment about religion and faithfulness. You guys know I'm both very faithful and pretty religious--Jesus and I are very good friends, especially since I escaped my marriage. So this is coming from the point of view of someone who does believe.

The first is that there's a difference between religion and faith. I think that to be educated, a person needs to be exposed to a religion and taught the mythologies and structures of it. It would be great if kids could all be exposed to four or five or six different sets of religious beliefs in an in-depth manner, but practically speaking, most kids are only going to get a solid grounding in one or two. I still think this is good, as it gives kids a vocabulary to understand and talk about what people do and why, as well as passing down traditions. A kid who has been raised with exposure to one religion (assuming it's not isolating and doesn't use scare tactics--non-fundamentalist religions, I mean) is going to have points of comparison when s/he encounters other religions. It sets them up with a framework to look at things, and that helps them later on with everything from examining their own views to examining other frameworks.

But religion isn't faith. I sometimes think that being raised with religion is inoculation against having faith later on! Your story, of being raised in one religion and then rejecting it later, isn't unusual at all. And I meet so many people at my church who were raised without any religious background at all who came to faith later on as adults. (They tend to be more zealous, IME, than the people who were raised with religion.) It''s almost as if knowing how the sausage is made (religion) sucks the joy out of it.

It's a strange, double-edged sword: You have to know enough about a religious tradition to question it with any accuracy and insight. But to have faith you almost have to be ignorant of the religious structure.

So if you want your daughter to have faith, you almost have to keep her from religion. And if you want her to be knowledgeable about religion, you run the chance that she will reject faith.

And proselytizing on the part of your parents? Well, you can't make someone believe in the long run. She might parrot back what your parents say to her now, and if that disturbs you you're going to have to decide how to approach your parents. (Good luck with that--I have no idea how to start that conversation if your parents are already disapproving of your break with religion. Although if they hadn't raised you in that religion, maybe you'd have faith...Ah, the circle of life.) But anything they say to her now isn't going to determine whether she has faith or considers herself Catholic or even Christian when she's an adult.

I think you and your husband are going to have to sit down and specifically talk about what aspects of each holiday you want to observe. You could focus on the family togetherness and peaceful spirit on Christmas, and make up some traditions that celebrate that. You could focus on newness and rebirth at Easter time and celebrate that. There's a path you can carve out for yourself that respects the solemnity and ritual of those holidays without faith per se, but doesn't fall into commercialism.

Now, about dealing with the differences. You just talk, a lot, about how different people do different things. "Grandma and Grandpa believe x and y, so they do z and w. We believe this, so we do that." She won't be any more confused by that than she is by the other things that are different at your houses. (I'm thinking about the gallons of soda and tons of Archway Homestyle cookies I consumed at my grandparents' house while my mom was hippie co-op mom who made us eat carob instead of chocolate. Resentful? Yes. Confused? No. I'm thankful the Carob Years are long over.)

To me it seems very similar to the kids who grow up speaking one language to one set of grandparents and another to the other. it doesn't mean they'll identify more strongly with one or the other--just that they know more about the world. And if your daughter is able to code-switch, mores the better for her.

Does anyone have any experience with mediating between your own beliefs and your parents in a way that honors both? And if you don't believe in the religious meanings of the holidays, but still want to celebrate them in a non-commercial way, what solutions or traditions have you come up with?

Comments

[hedra]

Oh, my favorite subject. Or one of them, anyway.

My background: I'm a PK (preacher's kid), but my mom is a UU minister. That means I've seen about a hundred or so couples come through the house trying to resolve this issue, or similar issues, as they plan their weddings (my mom didn't accept her Call to the ministry until she was in her 40's, so it was mostly my teen years).

I'm also UU, married to a Quaker. Ep's brother (raised Quaker) is married to a Catholic (he converted). His parents are one birthright Quaker, one former Episcopalian ('convinced' Quaker - Quakers don't 'convert' they convince). My sister (raised I think Pentecostal by her dad) is married to a Jewish woman. My one brother is generic Christian married to a conservative protestant. Another brother is essentially athiest UU. Another sister is strongly neo-Pagan. A few of the other siblings are Born Again Christians. My dad was married to a Latino Catholic for a while, too.

I have moved from generic UU to mildly Christian to Buddhist to Neo-Pagan with both Wiccan and Red Path leanings (Native American) back to UU with a lot of Quaker thrown in.

We're raising our kids both Quaker and UU - Quakitarians or UniFriends (it's an old joke between the Quakers and UUs, we're kissing cousins theologically and spiritually).

Additional history - ep's family had a lot of trouble figuring out how to deal with and accept his brother's wife, and his brother's conversion to Catholicism - and pre-Vatican II version, at that. I will agree with Moxie a lot on the talking talking talking - because some people when stressed stop talking about it, and that just makes it worse. I got tired of the silence very fast, and started talking about it. At Christmas, just to make things interesting. I think the rest of the family (except ep, who trusts me on this stuff) were afraid that things would devolve into a fight and hurt feelings very fast - but instead they found that it wasn't that hard to find some common ground, and once we find some common ground, we can comfortably discuss the differences in belief, faith, and practice without rancor or trying to convince or convert. It becomes a sharing of each person's true path and deeper faith, which can be a really joyful thing.

I've had a lot of practice at listening to other people's faith-based fears and accepting their need to save me, without accepting any need on my side to be saved. My mom's family were Southern Baptist, so she fell a long way from that tree. Nothing like going to family gatherings and having your relatives sadly say they're sorry that you're going to Hell. But I was taught to look behind the words to find the love and concern, and then ignore the details (kindly and gently).

So, now, for where you start yourselves...

I will respectfully ask that you get off your butts and go to the UU church. It is incredibly common for people to be driven off their butts by their kids starting to ask questions the parents feel unable to answer, by the way. The religious education programs in UU churches are amazingly open. My kids learn about all sorts of religions, faiths, and practices. They visit other churches at one age level, they learn about the history of the various religions, where our rituals and practices come from (UU as well as other religions), and learn about the idea of faith, as well as a comfort in living without any particular faith, but in community. It is very much geared toward showing the many paths and options, and allowing each to find their way. There are a portion of kids who will in that process grow up to discover that they truly resonate to another faith, and leave to choose that church. However, a good portion of those find their way back to the UU church when they have kids, because they understand the need to offer the choice freely to their own children.

UU churches are full of mixed-religion and lapsed-religion couples. My mom has married Jewish-Buddhist to Catholic-Baptist (seriously), pagans to Catholics, Hindu to Episcopalian, you name it, they've come through that door. UU accepts everyone - it is a community of seekers, and those who have found that it is the community that they were seeking. More a basis in values than a basis in theology is the connector. Mainly liberal in most churches, but there are a few heavily conservative churches as well - no reason people with a more socially conservative stance can't be seekers, too.

So, hie thee to a UU church - you will not be sorry (though you may have to pick and choose your style of church for fit, if there are several options). (Ep says from the sidelines 'if everyone who ever said 'I've been thinking about joining the UU church but haven't made the effort yet' actually joined, they'd be the largest church in the country' heh.)

Next: Question 1: Observing the holiday and providing meaningful ritual. This is going to involve talking with your DH about what is meaningful - is it the ritual (which is important to humans), is it the sense that we're involved in something that people all over the world are doing? is it that there is a purpose to the ritual and events? is it simply a way to mark the change of seasons (which may seem un-profound from your perspective, but when you settle into it, can become very profound)? Is it the fact that these traditions have been carried forward over thousands of years (some parts way before the birth of Christ), so we participate in the carrying forward of an echo in time? (Hint: there are classes at a lot of UU churches on just these questions. I'm gonna keep belaboring that, I think...) Talk it out - there's something in there that you are hungry for, if you can tease out that hunger you may find exactly where to start. Once you have a sense of what is important to you, and to him (they may be different things) it may be much easier to identify what to do for these holidays. But be prepared for the idea that what is important to you and him may not be the most important thing for your child. For example, the idea of carrying forward an echo in time is very powerful for me - I can step back into a Red Path practice and feel that connection to my great grandmother instantly. Plus I LOVE ritual - I will happily attend the local high Episcopal Christmas Eve service as a welcome guest, for the depth and resonance of the ritual (though I haven't done that in a decade). But for Mr B, it is the idea of being in community with those who will see him as an equal and welcome participant that resonates with him. For Mr G, it is the freedom to be himself and find his own way, as well as sharing what he has discovered for himself that is most powerful. Miss M and Miss R haven't yet shown what they find most important, yet.

For Question 2: You teach respect and regard for other people's faith and practice. My kids readily hang out with their very observant Catholic cousins. They respect the faith held by that family, ask questions, listen to the answers, and we talk about the differences. I don't panic over my kids leaning Christian, because I know and trust that they can find their way if they learn that it is up to them to choose what serves them best. My BIL is a true, soul-deep Catholic. He was never comfortable being Quaker, it was rather scary for him. He sought within for the Inner Light, and couldn't find it. For him, the connection to the Divine took that outward ritual, the guidance of a priest, more grounding in a scripture, and a much more personalized separate divine image. The Catholic Church is his HOME. The more his family have accepted and understood that, the less he's been in-your-face about it. He's not apologetic about where it surfaces in conversation, and he's not going to raise the subject needlessly, either. Being acceptant, loving, and faithful TOWARD him in his faith has allowed him to be the same back. He no longer writes scathing letters to his old Meeting, castigating them for their position on X or Y. Neither defense nor offense are required. He knows he can talk about his faith in front of or to my kids without me freaking out, and he knows that we're not raising our kids Catholic, as well. It is just learning about family, and what is important to our family. If one of them takes that path, so be it. But it isn't expected.

Now, that took a decade of practicing, talking, being open, to get there. And they're basically mentally healthy individuals, so that's a baseline. With my step-mom, I had to frame more conversation - I am not this faith, and I will not be. I am just interested in what you believe because I am interested in you. My older relatives were never comfortable with that, and so we declined to participate in those discussions - 'thank you for your concern, please give me and my religion the respect I give you and yours', and then change the subject. The farther apart your religions are, the more the fear that your choice will condemn you in some way becomes a driver for their actions. Registering the fear, and honoring that, can help. But there are some doors that aren't worth opening even a bit, because the other person will shove at it if they think they have a chance of getting in. Again, the UU church has dealt with that issue for as long as they've existed, so they're a good resource for 'HELP! She won't stop talking about Salvation, and my kid is confused and scared!'

Okay, now must run. There's a ton more to say on the subject, and I'd like to illustrate how I found my own way (and my mom found hers), but I have to go get kids ready for the day. I'll see if I can do that later (might be tomorrow, today is going to be crunch-time at work).

[Jilly]

I'm spiritual-Jewish and husband is relaxed Church of England.

When we first got together we each followed our rituals as a matter of mindless tradition. Our differences and the birth of our children have encouraged us to look closely at what our religions are saying and question whether that accords with what has become our spiritual position. We also agreed on some family goals: to engender a sense of respect and curiousity about religion and spirituality in all forms and to create family traditions based on inclusiveness and first principles rather than formality. Mindful spirituality.

It's a work in progress. Take passover as an example. At its roots, it asks us to remember those who suffered for our freedom. So instead of doing the formal seder reading we go around the table and talk about one or two people in our history who played this role for us. It encompasses the persecuted, the war veterans and the other women and men in our history who overcame incredible odds in their lives. It allows everyone at the table to particpate regardless of their religious background. It has become one of my favourite moments.

We also chose a school that has kids from a variety of religious and cultural backgrounds to try to counter the very white-Christian tone of the country we live in.

Figuring out how to talk about other family members' traditions is hard. 'Some people believe x' tends to create distance between the religion and the person. I want to offer my chidren the freedom to choose if they find something that resonates and I wonder if that approach prevents that from happening. It also makes the believers 'others' and can trivialise their faith. Difficult especialy when the believers in question are family members. I still haven't figured this one out. I just hope that if relatives talk about religion to my kids that they come and ask us questions so that we can work together to help it make sense.

[My Kids Mom]

As a Unitarian with strong Lutheran inlaws, and kids at a Southern Baptist preschool...

I try to discuss religion a lot: "What did you learn at chapel today? 'Jesus and the bad guys', huh? You remember that Grandma and Grandad believe in that too. Lots of people do, but I don't think that's what I believe. I believe that Jesus was a great person but I don't think he was God's son or that he was reborn like that. How about you? What do you think you believe?"

As for holidays, we have books about lots of religious traditions. We discuss the traditional Christian belief regarding Christmas and Easter, but also of other holidays. We went to a Passover Seder for the first time this year and discussed some things common to Easter and Passover (re-birth, starting over, boiled eggs!)

My kids don't seem confused (ages 5 & 8) but we've talked like this from toddler age. I want them to be respectful of the faith of their grandparents, but I want them to understand that our family has other ideas. When they are older they can choose what works best for them.

A UU (youth)minister will have other good ideas for helping kids with multiple holidays- its what they do best.

[paola]

Both my husband and I were brought up as Roman Catholics (he is Italian, I'm first generation Australian, but of Italian Stock). He still believes, but doesn't practise, I'm athiest. Both sides of the family are practising Catholics, and my MIL who we share a house with, in particular, is very religious.

I'm not a Taliban Athiest ( as my husband calls them). Unlike many Italian Athiests that I know, we had both our children baptised. Also, I do occasionally step inside a church ( weddings, funerals), but will not bring my child to mass, unless he particularly requests it, which may be the case in future. He goes to a public kindergarten but we have both chosen for him to attend religion classes, which is an elective subject in Italian kindergartens. In a country like Italy where Catholicism is so ingrained in every aspect of life, we thought he would feel excluded if he didn't know the basics.

My MIL talks a lot about Jesus and Mary to my son and about what she believes. She has taken him a couple of times to church when he seemed particularly interested, and I have had no problem with this at all. I agree totally with Moxie in that he will ultimately make his own decision about religion, and I think as his mother I should open him up to as much variey as possible so one day he can decide for himself. I mean one day he might decide that Buddhism is for him, or perhaps Islam. I do not in any way want to influence his choice 'consciously'.

Our family does Christmas and Easter, but not in a religious way. We eat with family, we exchange presents, but I do not talk about the religious implications. My husband does sometimes, and my MIL certainly does, but that's no big deal. I only started talking about what happened at Easter time this Easter as I was curious to know what my son had learnt at school. I mentioned that 'some people' believe Jesus died and came back to life, but I don't know if it's true. In fact we got on to a philosophical discussion about death and re-incarnation afterwards that really impressesd me, so the conversation about a religion I do not practise gave way to amazing insights. And I guess that is what I hope for for my children.

[Melissa]

Thank you for bringing up this topic. This is exactly what we're going through in our little family.

And thank you Hedra for that amazingly open insight to how to handle the balance.

I think this weekend I'll get off my butt. :)

[Shandra]

My husband's non-practicing Catholic and I am totally mixed - growing up we did United (which up here is Methodist/Presbyterian sort of), Jehovah's Witness, Salvation Army, and also my family is Evangelical, Orthodox, Catholic, Jewish, and as the final kicker a lot of the abuse I went through was ritualized in a religious way.

So, yeah, get the whole confusion thing. I pretty much believe in all religions. I think they all have good and bad points.

Anyways I'm not going to try to find you a spiritual home in terms of external religion.

Major holidays: How we do it in our family is that we find a way to make it meaningful. For us, that goes like this:

- Sundays (or really weekends, but this is our ritual) we go grocery shopping and my son takes a smaller cart or hand basket (depending on the store) and we buy 10% extra groceries (usually trying to maximize the haul on loss leaders) and put them in the conveniently located bin by the door for the food bank. That's our tithe.

- For winter, we pick a community volunteer activity. This year we picked it in the winter but it's actually happening in May and is a Habitat build.

- For spring, we plant seeds (yes this makes them late, but oh well) which the easter bunny brings; we also participate about 4 weeks later in our community clean-up effort.

These are small things but for us they serve a lot of the same purpose.

Our library includes kids' stories from as many religions as we can ferret out, and we read them to our son. So far he hasn't really asked any questions. Except where the Fat Controller in Thomas comes from (actually he is rather Jesus like, how he goes and collects the sad old unwanted steam engines and helps them to avoid "confusion and delay").

For the grandparents, my parents are intent on bringing my son to church. I'm not super comfortable with that so so far it hasn't happened.

[Moxie]

Wait, Shandra--he's called the Fat Controller in Canadian versions of Thomas?? So it's only in the US that he's Sir Topham Hat? Stupid PC-ness...

[paola]

Even in the German version he's the Fat Controller.

[Shandra]

There are no Canadian versions (of which I'm aware), but we watch/buy the British. :)

[mom2boys]

I love a lot of the traditions and fellowship of religion (mixed Christian background). My mom bounced us around from church to church as kids. I have no particular faith. I think I’d fall under the title secular humanist but it’s quite a mouthful to teach a little kid to say when people ask what we believe. I do miss the routine of getting dressed up on Sundays and seeing the same group of people, other families, that connection. But I don’t believe so we don’t currently attend a church. Perhaps, like others have said, I’ll be doing the little one a disservice by not giving him this frame of reference to have and work from (Older goes to church with other side of family). We celebrate Easter and Christmas as times to appreciate and be with family and do have discussions about what the holidays mean to other people. When other family members tell the boys that they are praying for our family because we are probably going to hell (and they do), we say that even though we don’t believe in hell, they do and are concerned because they love us. (When really I’d like to say they are ignorant hypocrites who voted yes on Amendment Two knowing what that meant for our family but that’s another issue) After the eight year old spent a week at vacation bible school last summer he became quite devout, got Baptized even. He’s also a big fan of Sunday school when they take him to the big Baptist church that has pancake breakfasts and bounce houses. Then he wants to know why we can’t go to church, too. We always, always, tell him that we don’t have all the answers and he is free to question and think and feel however he wants about God and religion and we respect his choice just as he should be respectful of everyone else’s right to their own beliefs - including a lack of belief in God.

[Sky]

Oh, what an interesting discussion! And one that my (raised Catholic but questioning) husband and I (raised Methodist, but Church of England school and non-confirmed) have also grappled with. It's been made more complicated for us by the fact of the religious baptismal choice that we made for our daughter has decided which schools she will be able to go to! So not just our religious practice in the balance but our daughter's schooling choices as well.

What worked for us was finding a church that we both feel comfortable with. 'Church shopping' ie visiting the variety of churches in the area and making a choice felt really weird, but has worked amazingly well. What has helped reconcile mostly my husband's family to our religious choice, is an uncle of his, who is a monk! He is the family's religious authority and very liberal - his view 'ah, well, we were all one until the reformation anyway!' If matters are awkward with your families, one voice of reason can go a long way to reconciling people to your choices.

As for holiday rituals, I think you and your husband need to hammer out what is important to you and then, as a united front, you make the decisions. I don't think it will confuse your daughter too much if there is some 'we think this and Grandma thinks that' discussions in time. After all, every child gets used to the fact that there are different rules at school and at home and at relatives houses - religion is a natural extension of this.

On a personal note, my view is that there is a Divine entity (call it God, Goddess, Buddha, whatever you will) and each person finds their own route to the divine in a way that is comfortable for their culture and character. My daughter will find her own route and it may be one of the family routes of Methodist, Church of Ireland, Catholic or Quaker or it may be a totally new route. She will find her own way.

On a complete tangent, I read somewhere that children who are exposed to a religion (doesn't matter what) are far more resistant to cults than children who are brought up with no religious exposure. Having experienced one set of religious norms and rituals, they are more likely to question than blindly accept a cult's teachings.

As for the Fat Controller, Moxie, that was his original name - he may have been PC-fied everywhere by now, but he was definitely the Fat Controller in the original books I read as a child.

[hedra]

@Shandra, hmm, I think I was proselytizing there a bit - but only because they already mentioned the UU thing. I usually don't go off that much. Just to be clear here - many people will try the UU church and find that's not where they need to be, either. I will say that all the UU churches I know have been perfectly okay with helping people find their spot, and while they'd love it to be there, they'll also tell you where else might suit. For example, a lot of more Christian tradition people end up UCC (United Church of Christ, which is way more Christian in focus, but similar in ethics and values).

So, on the final question of Moxie's (how we celebrate), my thoughts from my experience and my mom's.

My mom only found the UU church as an adult. She found that she did like ritual, and she did like community-of-faith, and she had a strong underlying faith (though she's now pretty agnostic, as many ministers of various faiths end up being, and I'd call myself an agnostic with a faith practice, if that makes sense - I don't presume to 'know', but I follow what feels right anyway). Interestingly, her Call (which happened when she was all of 2 years old) was a very Quaker Call - she felt a profound sense that God does not reside 'out there somewhere' but Within. She had a huge argument with her parents about where exactly God could be found, and she was certain that the only place to find God was within oneself. If you have a Knowing like that, it's a reasonable idea to follow it - otherwise it will eat you (as it ate her for years before if finally dragged her kicking and screaming into seminary - it was never a job she wanted, it was more That Which I Must Do).

We spent my childhood (long before that, right around when she found the UU church) exploring religions and rituals and celebrations. My mom would get out books on how Christmas was celebrated around the world, and on other winter festivals and holidays, and we'd try them out. She leaned toward the ones that were heritage oriented, to provide some sense of continuity (which meant mostly Nordic and German, some English, some Scottish, going back to the pagan roots of some of them - there wasn't much available on Native American winter celebrations at the time). So we tried out various things, and I grew up knowing that Christmas Trees were pre-Christian, and what Advent was REALLY, and what Boxing Day is, and so forth. She learned a lot more after she went to Seminary, so I got a further education after that. We decided to do wooden shoes (Father Christmas, I think that's a Dutch tradition of feeding his horse and having his horse leave treats in return), skipped the Krist Kindle Christmas Eve gift, kept the tree and Santa and stockings (heavily American style), entertained ourselves over the Nordic red-and-white clothing (a tie-in to the red and white mushroom used in shamanism in northern scandinavia - hmm, magic mushrooms, flying reindeer...). And I already mentioned the Easter Spider (mom picked spider because it a) the strings solved the problem of the too-fast-egg-hunting by one sister, and spiders were also a Goddess symbol and she always considered Easter a Goddess holiday). It was cultural geography and history of world religions.

Now, that worked really well for me. It did not work so well for one of my sisters, who found the constant trying-on of different things more jarring than comforting. That made her feel like we didn't really believe anything, we just were poking around through other people's traditions without much purpose. She also was older when mom started that, so age as well as personality probably play a role there. Just be aware that exploration may not work for all kids (you may need to explore first as conversation between the adults, and then just present what you do as 'what we do' - know thy child, I suppose. And some of it is just guessing.).

We also formed our own traditions around what we believe as a family - the Cultural (not religious) practice of the holiday, but selected for alignment with our values. Since the Quaker side is heavily rooted in simplicity and celebrating such things every day instead of once a year, we limit the number of gifts from Santa (one) and from us (one) on Christmas morning. (We also tend to gift throughout the year, rather than reserving it for special events - that is also a Quaker thing, celebrating in the moment what is usually highlighted just once. Same for Mother's Day, Father's Day, Valentine's Day, birthdays, etc - if something sings to us as a reflection of any of those feelings, we honor that in the moment rather than waiting for the holiday.)

However, family follows their level of tradition, too, as suits and comforts them. This means that we have one family (my dad's) who do a pollyanna between the grandkids only (one child to one child), one family that does a limited gifting (but with many people) and a heavy emphasis on 'collective/family gifts' (things the kids will use at grandma's house) - that being my mom, and one that is relatively go-nuts from the grandparents (strangely this would be the Quaker in-laws). We also do a family charitable contribution (the extended family collectively selecting where to put the Charitable Fund momey from my mom's Charitable Fund) at Thanksgiving. Beyond that, we do hand-and-feet (expressing love and responsibility and community in the worled) activities with tree planting, participation in non-profit activities, and food bank gifts.

Praxis-wise, the kids attend UU church with my mom (they go to sunday school) at the moment. We did meeting for a while with the older two, but the local meeting is so small it was hard to work it effectively (plus the kids resisted the First Day School at that age). I either go back home, or go to church, depending on what the younger two are doing. My practice is mostly in the garden. Being With the Earth and Tending are my communion processes. I also have a group of women who I used to practice with, who get together still for some of the Quarter and Cross-quarter days. Whenever possible, I go (and take kids) to the dawn Morris dance for May Day.

In the summer, the kids attend Quaker camp (when they're old enough). Mr G is more attuned to Quaker faith and practice than Mr B - Mr B is more likely to end up UU or maybe Methodist, I think. Quakers are too quiet for his style. Still, for us, we start where we live, and we live UU and Quaker. That's also a heritage thing, since my mom's family was Quaker before that one branch took a way left turn into Southern Baptist. So, now, back again, I guess (only two generations separate the traditions).

If you're more prone to quiet sharing, Quakers are welcoming of people of other faiths-of-origin, too. It's worth exploring that, if you're more of the introverted bent. And don't forget the Belief-o-Matic at Belief.net - go through the test, and take the top five or so to look at, because they'll probably resonate the most to you. I can't think of a congregation that wouldn't welcome people coming in to try it out.

And as Shandra shows so beautifully, living in tune with your values is also a praxis, a living act and expression of faith or belief. What traditions you grow in your family will be what feel right, if you're paying attention. And your kids will do the same again, most likely - the only ones who don't are when two people are from the same very strong tradition and both feel comfortable in it. The rest have to make a choice - follow one path, follow the other path, or create a new path.

[fahmi]

We are currently navigating this. We are Muslim, my in-laws are Christian. Because my parents are nearby, our two boys are getting the Muslim parts reinforced more. But we struggle with balancing things like Easter and Christmas - we don't want to deny the grandparents the chance to share holidays, but it's a tricky line to navigate. At the moment, we are emphasizing the non-religious parts, like the grandparents dyed Easter eggs this year and talked about the Easter bunny. we haven't really decided what to do when religion comes up in a year or two...

[hedra]

(Oh, and there are a lot of pagans and secular humanists in UU churches as well - athiests and agnostics are equally welcome. Be thou a lamp unto thine own feet. It's one of the few community of practice groups that exist for secular humanists. So if you want to raise your kids with a Sunday tradition in Community, but not with a Theology, then that's an option.)

[Shannon]

I was raised in the UU church. Ultimately I am grateful for that upbringing, but as a child it was a HARD church to be a part of. Kids would ask, "Are you Christian?" or "Do you believe in God?" and I would just lie because I had no idea. In high school I ultimately was able to explore my own spiritual path, and I didn't go through the typical "crisis of faith" situation that I think a lot of people raised in other religions experience as teenagers.

The great thing about the UU church is that in the Sunday school they do teach you about the traditions of many other faiths, so it's a good learning experience.

When I got married I just started attending the UCC church because my husband grew up there. Nowadays we don't go because I don't feel like rushing out the door on Sundays. Actually my husband and I got into an argument on Easter because I didn't want to go to church and he did.

I really wish I could go back to the UU church, but my husband has a big problem with it.

[hedra]

Also (sorry, the PK thing is activated, here), if you feel like you're avoiding, angry, hurt, scared, or in any way wounded in the process of having left your old church, it may be worth seeking out a minister/priest/rabbi (etc.) who has training in pastoral counseling. It's easier to find a comfortable space if you're not fighting or protecting a wounded place. Especially if there are abuse issues, finding a way to answer (or live with not answering) the Why questions is important to being able to find a comfortable home community and practice. You can do this on your own, too - but sometimes having a little guidance helps. It's way easier to address the question of 'how do we raise our child' once your own wounds are at least (ad)dressed if not fully healed. (Note: Pastoral counseling or spiritual/religious counseling is a particular training and is not something that every religious leader is suited to - so ask about the training, it makes a difference.)

I think I'm actually done now... maybe. heh.

[hedra]

@Shannon - the UU church has addressed the 'how to answer that question' issue much better now - having had enough kids grow up with that and now be adults saying 'that SUCKED' made its way into the RE curriculum. I think you might be surprised at how much easier it is for the kids. Not that UCC is bad, either. I wonder what it is about UU that your DH struggles with? (I know a lot of people crack that UU is not a religion, it's a discussion group... and that it being that welcoming feels like it devalues the idea of Faith and Practice as a unifying theme - that's probably more a personality issue than a belief issue, though... some people will just not find that the Process and Values are the unifying factor, and want the Belief to be the unifying factor.)

Okay, I said I was done. I lied.

[Jac]

This is all so interesting, to see the many faith journeys people have. It's a timely post for me. I was raised without religion in my family home. This past Easter I converted to Roman Catholicism. It's been a long process and there were many influencing factors. My family (who are all agnostic, except for one confirmed aetheist) have been supportive (or at least, keep the mocking comments to a minimum). My husband is a non-practising Catholic who said something like "welcome to the team" but doesn't really understand why I WANT to go to mass.

My husband and I had always intended to expose our son to a variety of religions. It is likely that he will be more heavily exposed to Catholicism because of my bent but I am going to endeavour to expose him to other religions. I am a firm believer that there is more than one pathway to "God" or godliness and I think I will make that my discussion jumping point with my son when the time comes to have these discussions. I think it's really all of us trying to make sense of the world we live in, and trying to live a better life or be a better person.

[hush]

The ideological problems Michaela is having here, if I'm understanding them correctly from her question, seem to be:

1) How to keep the Catholic grandmothers from converting the kids into true believing, conservative Catholics (that's the literal definition of "proselytize"), while still maintaining a relationship with them in which they may speak non-judgmentally about their religion, and

2) How to put a new, more comfortable celebratory structure in place for her family at Easter and Christmastime that is both non-commerical, and secular/non-Jesus-related ... Hopefully I got those right?

I see absolutely nothing wrong with having "none (or very few) religious beliefs" as Michaela says. Sixteen percent of all Americans today do not identify with any religion. I'm not going to get into what I believe (because honestly who cares?). ;)

When it comes to my own kid, just like Sky said, the hope & the goal will be to "cult-proof" him for life. I don't think one needs exposure to just any old religion in order to be an "educated" person - though the Bible stories from the Judeo-Christian tradition are instrumental in understanding most great literature - but one certainly does need Science, a healthy dose of Skepticism, and the ability to Think Critically. Ideally, my son will learn some street sense about religion, so that he doesn't go around drinking the Kool-aid and donating his life savings to some televangelist. He'll hopefully also learn the etiquette rules about religion - we don't discuss it in a social setting with anyone but family and very close friends, and proselytizing of any kind is just Ill-Mannered.

My advice for Michaela re: #1 would be to share her own (agnostic?) beliefs with her children in precisely the way she doesn't want people of other religious persuasions to share their beliefs with her children. I do think that old yarn "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything" has some merit. She's also going to need to check in with her kids after they talk with grandma, to see what was said. Boundary work ahead of time with the grandmas as to what is appropriate to discuss is also going to be key.

As for #2 - the holidays, I think the best plan is to host them on her own turf, that way she can exert more control about the schedule, the decor, gift-giving/ no gift giving, etc. That's all much harder to do as a guest in someone else's home.

[anaximander]

Oof. I don't have any experience with kids (yet) - boyfriend and I are agnostic / athiest. But I went through this a lot as a kid, with one side of the family that was.... vocally old school religious. ahem.

My parents made the conscious decision to let us decide for ourselves - to give us as much religious information as we wanted, yes, but ultimately, we could choose what to believe, and the deal was that no matter what we chose, they would respect our decision. My brother was, at last check, borderline Rastafarian (yes, and not just for the drugs, either - he really gets a lot out of the mysticism) and I'm atheist. My parents let us celebrate as many religious ceremonies or as few as we felt like, driving us (me) to whatever we wanted to go to, and talked about it a LOT. We created our own family traditions, and that worked too. (Christmas Eve probably being the most important of them - we open presents, watch movies, play wii, get to eat all of our "favourite" foods, etc. It's quite awesome, and we have something to say when people ask what we did for christmas that doesn't require a 2,000 word essay on religious beliefs :)

It worked really, really well for our immediate family. We aren't afraid to question each other as to why we believe a certain thing, how we came to that belief and why it works for us. Religion is not a forbidden topic at all in my family, and we do talk about why *other* people believe what they believe, and how it might work for them. After years of that at home, I'm now finishing up a degree in Anthropology, specifically focusing on cultural and religious aspects, with an intent to go on to grad school to study much the same thing.

However.

When my mother's family found out that I wasn't raised in "their" church... or any church... round about the time I was 21... they threw my mom out of the family for awhile (WHILE my mom was leaving my abusive father. I'm still working on not being very angry about this.) There was a great big screaming match, and most of that family doesn't speak to me anymore, period. And if I think about it too hard, yeah, that *hurts* - especially when I'm the one who turns up when they're in the hospital, not any of my religious cousins. They still lambast me for not being a "good" human, because I don't have their god as a reason for doing things. It really, really hurts that I'm not respected for my beliefs as much as they are respected for theirs. In some ways, I really wish my mom had stood up to my grandmother a decade sooner and said "We're letting her choose" rather than simply passive aggressively letting my grandmother believe that I was a true believer and having it come to a head like that. But who knows, dear old Gran may have decided to boot me that much sooner, or taken drastic measures to convert me.

I do NOT, however, believe that this situation is the case with all religious families - my grandmother and aunts are particular whackjobs who simply use their religion to justify their racist, bigoted actions. And I don't want anyone to think that I *hate* religion or that all religious people are bad or some such - I like religion as a social construct. I think it's interesting and has a great purpose in society, beyond any great controlling being(s). Some close friends are very religious and it works very well for them, and I wouldn't ever want to deny them the comfort and peace that they get from it.

I suppose the upshot of this is that I suggest being honest with the grandparents, depending on personality. (If they're the type to cut the kids out entirely, well, then, obviously ymmv) They may be able to step up and show the kids the *best* of their religion, and why it works for them. Bottom line, I don't want anyone to have to go through what I went through, really.

[Rudyinparis]

Hi Michaela,

As for establishing your own faith rituals, I recommend the author Starhawk. I have a book co-authored by her, dang, forgetting the title, but it is exactly about establishing meaningful rituals outside the Christian tradition for what are now considered Christian religions (lol, my bias is showing!). She comes from a Wiccan, pagan, Goddess-worshipping ideology, but I think her faith rituals are gorgeous no matter where you stand (I don't consider myself to be Wiccan, or pagan, or formally Goddess-worshipping.) Here's a blurb on her classic, "Spiral dance": "In this beautiful 20th-anniversary edition, Starhawk now reveals the ways in which the practice of ritual and Goddess religion have, in the face of a changing world, developed over the last 20 years – and the ways in which these changes have influenced and enhanced her original ideas. This important spiritual guidebook provides both the tools of ancient practice and the means to adapt them to our lives today – for, according to Starhawk, ‘a living tradition is not static or fixed; it changes and responds to changing needs and changing times.’"

I struggle--maybe struggle is too strong a word--I sometimes think about this issue, as well. We haven't found a church yet, or a faith group, but I think we will be led to the right one when the time is right.

[Rudyinparis]

I meant "for what are now considered Christian *traditions*".

[CoachNancy]

What I am hearing, and correct me if I am wrong, Michaela, is the confusion coming from the fact that you are not exactly sure which path you want to head in. Understandable that you are procrastinating going to church because you feel ambivalent. Ambivalence tends to breed procrastination.

When you find your path, it may be easier to navigate the fact that other family members have different beliefs or perhaps a different degree of practce.

As a matter of fact, sometimes it can seem like the intensity to which a faith is practiced can cause just as much or more of a rift than choosing what religion to practice in and of itself.

When you find the degree to which you want to practice as well as determine your involvement in the church, it will be easier to communicate your values to your children. You can teach your values while explaining that other people have different values--a great life lesson to learn young!

Respect where you are in your path. You are giving thought to this now and asking for advice. This is all part of your path--your process. If you still believe in God, you can always pray too.

[Rudyinparis]

I meant--oh, whatever. You know what I meant. Co-opted traditions, blah blah blah.

[CG]

Boy, do I think about this. I was raised mostly Lutheran. I miss church, sort of, but I don't believe in most of it anymore. That makes me a little sad. Husband was raised with no religion and has no interest in any of it. We did not baptize our son because we felt that it would be dishonest. But I was still sad that we didn't.

If I found a church I liked, it would be something I did alone, or with the kid(s). That, to me, wouldn't feel good. So, I guess we will continue to be churchless.

[carmen]

Everyone's stories are very interesting. I think Moxie is right on when she says that it seems like people who are raised with faith often lose it later and people who didn't have much background become zealous believers later.

I was raised by a mother who read the bible and had faith but we didn't go to church regularly (maybe just on holidcays with friends) and my husband went to Catholic church with his family until he was allowed to stop going. Now neither of us go and we don't consider ourselves Christians for many of the reasons that have been stated.

Luckily both of our sets of parents don't hassle us about church.

Our problem is that my brother, who was never religious in his youth, has now "found God" and he and his wife are incredibly conservative Christians. It gets weird around Christmas b/c other than a prayer or two we've never been very religious around the holidays. Now my brother and his wife come to the family Christmas and get very confrontational about why we celebrate Christmas if we don't believe and what we're going to teach our son (2yo). Very uncomfortable and inappropriate in my opinion. I don't need to explain myself to him simply b/c he's decided he has a belief system now.

[Jenny]

No advice on how to manage this balance, but just to throw in my data point that it was not my family's experience that religion and faith don't mix. I was brought up in the Episcopal church, daughter of a priest, going to all services and then some, acolyting, discussing theology at the dinner table, and my siblings and I are still both believers and churchgoers. Part of this may (MAY!) have been that our parents did *not* just stand back and "let us make our own decision" (though of course our decision was ultimately our own, and all three of us went through plenty of questioning and rebellion.) They made it clear that this decision was the most important one in our lives, and made their own faith and joy and struggle crystal clear to us. It was a major gift. Passing that on to my own kids is hard work.

Anyway. Just pointing out that in my experience, faith and religion are partners, not warriors.

[hush]

I also recommend checking out comedian Bill Maher's awesome documentary "Religulous" (that would be Religion + Ridiculous). Rent it before they ban it! ;)

[Cloud]

We don't really have this problem, but I think my parents did. Hubby and I are both atheists, although I tend more towards the agnostic end of the scale than he does. His parents took him to church when he was a kid, mine didn't but let me go with any friend or relative if I wanted to.

My Mom was raised Catholic and my dad was raised Lutheran. By the time I was old enough to remember, they had stopped going to church. Both sets of my grandparents were pretty religious in their own ways. I suspect our lack of religion bothered them both to some extent (and I know that my Mom's catholicism was a problem for my Dad's parents at first), but the adults were all very good about not getting the kids caught in the middle of that.

We celebrated Easter and Christmas with our own traditions that were pretty secular- the Christmas Eve movie, the two way Easter egg hunt (once we were old enough, we hid the eggs again for my parents after we found them), things like that. I do remember my Mom explaining Lent to us, and I remember giving things up for Lent sometimes. We also had a Children's Bible that I think one of us asked for. I don't remember the grandparents ever talking religion to us (although they may have), but various aunts certainly did. This may have led to some confusion at the time, but I've forgotten that, too.

I have no specific advice for Michaela since I apparently can't remember anything useful at all, but I hope my experience will help her worry a little less about it. I think some confusion about religion is inevitable for kids growing up in a mixed society like ours, but that in most cases, the confusion caused by differing religions in the family will not have any lasting effects.

[morrow]

Been lurking and reading AskMoxie for years.

We cover so much about our children's emotional, social, intellectual and physical beings- glad to see this important aspect of spirituality being brought up.
i believe we are all spiritual creatures- and we, as well as our children, need to be asking the question(s) about our Creator our OP and other posters have.

as Coach Nancy said, i agree that earnestly asking God is a great place to start or finish.

[michaela]

Thanks so much for all the comments, everyone! They're really helpful. @hedra, I will get off my butt, I promise. The interesting thing is that this time last year we visited a nearby UCC congregation -- it was great, but too much Jesus for my tastes. So apparently there's something about Easter that really triggers this issue for me.

@Rudyinparis - I get ya! And I'll definitely check out that book. Part of the problem is that I was raised to have great suspicion of/scorn for anything "New Agey," because my mom saw (sees?) it as the work of the devil. Literally. So I need to feel the confidence to explore my own path w/o being held back by these things *I* don't believe but that are still living inside me. Does that make sense?

[Cat]

Hey guys, what's UU?

[Lisa]

You should check out the book Parenting Beyond Belief by Dale McGowan, an atheist writer and father of three. There's also a website at parentingbeyondbelief.com with forums, a blog, recommended books, etc. McGowan's focus is on how to raise kids to be religiously literate and how to navigate differences of belief with family members.

I don't have kids yet but it's given me a lot of food for thought, as a Lutheran-turned-atheist. (Swear I'm not affiliated in any way, just a fan of his website!)

[Another Mommy]

I'm kind of new here. Tried to post earlier on this thread but it disappeared. I'll try again.

For ideas to celebrate holidays, some may want to look at the book "All Year Round". It is a Waldorf publication, vaguely Christian, but with some pre-Christian and pagan info, too.

Cat, I believe UU is Unitarian Universalist.

Questions : What is meant by "faith" in Moxie's original post and in Hedra's comment about "faith practice"?

How do those of you being told by relatives that you are going to hell find the loving sentiments behind that and keep from being bitter about the seeming emotional abuse and manipulation?

Hard questions, I know but I have lots of them (questions) and no one to ask IRL.

[Laura]

@Jenny, me too! About faith and religion being partners, I mean. I was raised in the Catholic religion and it really nurtured and grew my faith, especially during my college years when I was active in my university parish. I'm raising my children in a religious tradition because I believe it will support and anchor their faith, not hinder or obscure it.

@Michaela, I second what Hedra said early on about mutual respect for traditions and beliefs. I think the more open you are to letting your daughter experience her grandparents' religion, the less they will feel the need to push it on her. And, hopefully, the more they will respect your family's path, whatever that turns out to be.

[Amanda Too]

I probably destroyed any credibility on this issue with my Holiday Rant post about the rest of the world being unsupportive of my efforts at self-examination during Lent (which sounded ridiculously intolerant and disrespectful, even with the humorous intent accounted for). But, I have dealt with this issue in my family (with adults, not children). So, here goes.

I come from a homogeneous family of believing Christians, with the exception of my atheist SIL, who I am sad to say, feels quite uncomfortable during family holiday celebrations. It would be easier to include her if she held some other spiritual belief or practice, because we could blend the rituals, like others here have suggested. But she finds any spiritual beliefs/rituals bafflingly absurd and exclusive by definition, because she doesn't believe in a spiritual dimension at all. So, I have opted to support her by driving her to the pub at night and listening to all the judgments she's held on to tightly all day (*very* draining, even for an introverted, conflict-avoiding Brit).

And I've talked extensively to my MIL (the only proselytizer among us) about respecting her DIL's beliefs, which she tries to do, but SIL can pick up on the underlying vibe of sadness and longing about her spiritual state (or lack thereof), as well as the sideways comments and email forwards, etc. (Granted, SIL has her own wounds re: traditional religion and is therefore ouchy on the subject and more apt to take offense, but still, MIL is not sensitive to any of it due to her personality, beliefs, and overwhelming love for SIL.)

I've had some marginal success at helping MIL avoid proselytizing, by using her own belief structure. So, here are my suggestions for Michaela:

-Explain to the grandmas that teaching your daughter about Jesus and the cross at this point is disturbing and confusing for her (if, indeed, it is)

-Ask them what they most want for their granddaughter. Do they want her to share their beliefs? To understand her religious heritage? To share rituals and traditions as a family?

-If the belief part is not as important to them, you could come to some win-win solution where you teach Jesus as a fun story that we include in our celebrations, like the Easter bunny.

-If belief is most important, offer that they may share their beliefs with her at some point in the future, when you feel she's ready, and when you've talked through the difference between sharing and proselytizing and decided on some boundaries (i.e., they must preface everything by saying "This is what I believe, but not everyone does" or avoiding the topic of eternal damnation, or whatever)

-Gently remind them that the tenets of their own belief (assuming they believe what I think they believe) teach that each person must make his or her own decision, and that only the Spirit can draw someone, so the best thing they can do is to privately pray that the Spirit would open her mind and heart to the truth (this has been the most effective strategy with my MIL, because it gives her something to *do* with all that energy, and allows her to express her love in a way that is consistent with her beliefs and is respectful of SIL).

This is a minefield for so many families, and I honor your desire to think deeply and reach understanding on the issue while your daughter is young. Good luck!

[Imanitsud]

I just wanted to hop in and add another reference point: I was raised Catholic and rejected it when we moved by refusing to become confirmed; I went to a Methodist youth group that was awesome. My father still required I attend Mass. In college, I returned to the Catholic faith -- mostly b/c I was a fish out of water everywhere else, but in Mass I knew just what to do and say, and when to do and say it. It turns out all the things I hated about the rituals and rote prayers as a kid, I craved and enjoyed as an adult -- it was the act of praying in community that was more important than the prayer itself. I went through "confirmation" as a 22yo. Now, as a 35yo mother of two, we are raising them Catholic with the understanding that they might not choose that as an adult, which would be a-ok with me. Mostly, I want them to feel comfortable pursuing a relationship with their creator. We have philosophical discussions about religion and they impress me with their struggles and wisdom. But it was/is important to me to provide them a context. We belong to a diverse parish, and a very diverse SCC that includes people from other countries (Nigeria, Russia), people that were adopted and raised by two gay women, people that converted from Quaker, hard-line libertarians and die-hard Democrats (that'd be us!). All of our kids watch us learn and struggle and love eachother, and to me, it's worth it to include some rituals that they might resent later if it results in an ability to work through life's big questions. Just my two cents. The fact that you're thinking about it is good -- teach your kids to listen to their own longing, as you define yours, whatever it might be. Good luck!

[Amanda Too]

I meant the holding her tongue part is draining for *her*, not the listening/drinking for me. =)

[SarcastiCarrie]

UU = Unitarian Universalist, I believe.

I saw it mentioned on The Simspsons once. That is as far as my religious knowledge goes (and lack of knowledge has certainly hurt me at Trivial Pursuit).

[Cloud]

@Another Mommy- no one in my family ever told me they thought I was going to hell, but my very best friend, who I'd been friends with since 2nd grade, did when we were in junior high. We are still friends now, I think because it was clear to me that she was saying it only as a way of expressing that she cared about me, and in her belief system, I was clearly damned, which I imagine is really hard to accept for someone you care about. I imagine that is even harder to accept when the person you believe is damned is your own child or grandchild.

I think those of us who don't believe can be equally hurtful if we're not careful, too. Some of my atheist friends have said some pretty harsh things about religion and people who have strong religious beliefs. I think they only say them when they know that they are among other non-religious people, but still- that is not the example I want to set for my daughter. I want to teach her to respect other people's viewpoints, to try to find the common ground even with people whose beliefs you cannot really understand, and to avoid thinking things like "if you believe that, you must be stupid".

[julia]

@Another Mommy: I grew up in a small, rural community of mostly fundamentalist Christians. I was raised by atheist, New-Age-y parents. Because it was such a small town, everyone knew each others' church affiliations and were openly judgmental of my own lack of affiliation. Many, many children in preschool and grade school informed me matter-of-factly that I was "going straight to hell." My parents were enraged by these stories and consequently ranted about Christian self-righteousness at the dinner table for years.

I have a certain amount of skepticism (okay, at times, bitterness) about Christianity, thanks to this background, but I am trying to open my mind and recognize that my experience was quite limited to a certain strain of Christianity that is not representative of the many rich faiths and systems out there.

I worry about my own children -- my inclination is to be my own atheist self. But I want my children to be included, not excluded, like I was, from a feeling of community. My MIL is strongly Catholic and already disapproving of my own lack of religiosity. I am already overwhelmed at the thought of sorting out these issues over the next couple of years: Sunday school, Sunday services, discussions about Jesus, etc.

[Amanda Too]

@Another Mommy--It sounds like you've been on the receiving end of some aggressive proselytizing, perhaps with ulterior motives? Oy.

The only evangelistic abuse and manipulation I've seen is from unscrupulous, power-driven leaders, although I'm sure there are unscrupulous followers, too, just not in my immediate purview.

From the putting-on-the-other-person's-shoes file, I've suggested that my SIL imagine that a beloved family member is dying from a treatable disease because he or she refuses medical treatment. If SIL believed that he/she would recover if they would accept the treatment, would she not try to convince them to do so, even if it made them both uncomfortable?

That's the mindset behind most familial proselytizing and is truly grounded in love and concern, IME. It has helped her understand MIL's attempts to convert her. And helped her have compassion for how hard it must be for MIL to be told she can NOT talk about the treatment at all, even though she is convinced that the patient is still dying.

Again, this is from my limited experience, your situation may be very different.

I'd like to apologize on behalf of people of faith everywhere who are disrespectful and unkind. And I'd like to thank Cloud for acknowledging that people without faith can be just as insensitive. How is "You are blind and lost and your beliefs are sending you to hell" worse than "You are stupid, ignorant and hateful"? It's all not good and doesn't please The-Higher-Powers-That-Be-Or-Not-Be.

[suzanna]

I was raised by atheist parents, and am now definitely an atheist, as is my husband and his parents. So, we don't really have issues. But, growing up for a long time I really wanted my family to be more religious- go to church or synagogue like everyone else. Reading Dawkins' The God Delusion I see now that the pull of religion for children is very strong, so that all makes sense over and above the wanting to fit in.

I guess for me it's most important that my kids make up their own minds. It's also important to me as a scientist and logical thinker that they too think logically and 'scientifically'- I feel uncomfortable presenting them with 'magical' stuff of any kind at this age (2). That goes for Elmo, The Easter Bunny, God. But it's hard to avoid, and I am sensitive to the cultural relevance of these entities- who denies her kids Elmo? I need to come up with a better way to deal with this. We did Easter Bunny this year- he came and hid coloured eggs in the garden, and they thought that was hilarious.

We are always working with them on the importance of family and kindness to others, so I don't see the need right now to specifically link these values with the holidays, though building our own traditions as Moxie suggests is something I'm going to think about.

[mom2boys]

@Another Mommy - my specific example comes from the eight year old's grandparents on his dad's side. I know they love and care for him very much. I know that they believe that Jesus is the only path to heaven and everything else leads to hell. I know they want their grandson in heaven with them - so when they tell him that we (his mother and I and anyone else who doesn't believe in Jesus, hint hint grandson) are going to hell and that they will pray for us - it's really because they 1. love him and want him to go to heaven and 2. want his mother in heaven with him. Not kidding. I clearly don't agree and have plenty of issues with that idea and their approach but it is true to say it comes from a place of love as far as he is concerned. I don't have to see them all that often and certainly don't spend holidays with them so it's not hard to let it go. And I really don't believe in hell. I might be more offended if I thought there was such a place. :)

[Cloud]

@Amanda Too- your example about the life threatening illness is a good one. I'll try that on my more judgmentally atheist friends.

I don't think your post on the Holiday Rant ruined your credibility on this issue at all. The world needs more people who are willing to try to see things from the other side.

[Rudyinparis]

You guys are all so freaking amazing. What a good conversation!

[MrsHaley]

@Suzanna - I, too, am a heretic against the Church of Elmo. Elmo deniers unite!

I've got nothing else o/t. This is a great convo! Our whole family is down with Jesus, so I have no relevant insight, except that He's alright with me.

[Shannon]

@Hedra, it seems like Unitarianism has also become more well-known, so maybe a kid could admit to being a Unitarian more freely without fear of being mocked by his/her peers ... ?

My husband just doesn't understand the point of the UU church. He says it's just like an "anti-religion" and if you're not going to church to learn an actual religion, what's the point?

[hedra]

@another mommy, 'faith practice' is actually two things - one is faith (a set of beliefs or feelings, frequently about trust and what can be allowed to flow without needing our direct personal action), and the other is practice (the activities and rituals and events that are often part of the process of religion, but may be just the rituals that feel comforting and satisfying, like having cookies and milk after school with mom). A faith practice is where the two are combined.

For not getting angry, for me that was a) recognizing that their religion is their choice, and b) my religion is my choice, and that means that they chose to have an either-or approach to life. It makes me sad, sometimes, but doesn't make me angry. My relatives did definitely love us (most of them anyway) and did want to see us in heaven, and it hurt them viscerally to picture us not there. They were protecting that wound and hurt, and also hoping the most for us positively - but their religion frames the options as up/down, good/bad, heaven/hell - so it comes out as down/bad/hell. My SIL fortunately is a theologically 'old' Catholic, and while pre-vatican-II means some things are really OLD old, it also includes the idea that Catholicism isn't the ONLY path, it is just the only SURE path, because God is the only one who gets to choose, and not even the leaders of the church get to say if someone will or will not be saved. So, she quietly let me know that she didn't think that truly good people would go to hell, and that included me, so while she would still pray for my soul's salvation, she wasn't deeply worried about it - she prays for everyone she loves, as well as those she doesn't.

I get angry at methods more than intentions. So I will stand my ground on HOW you speak that to me and mine, but not be hurt about why. I will use every people-do skill I have (like judo but using people's direction and force as weapons against themselves), like standing up and leaving the room (even to get a drink of water) whenever the discussion gets mean about it. Or even just standing up, then sitting down again (any excuse - I thought I heard my cellphone, whatever). Repeating 'Please respect my choices the way I respect yours' ad nauseum, thanking them for their concern and telling them I'm happy to have them pray for me if it helps them feel better, etc. I draw the line at badgering or threatening or scaring the kids. And I will pick up the kids and leave if it becomes a problem. I hold the final control on that. It hasn't been needful, thankfully, but in really abusive situations, the most loving thing you can do sometimes is refuse to permit someone the opportunity to cause harm they may later (in their better moments) regret.

Being totally whole about my own theology (and lack thereof, at times) makes it easier to not take the hurt in, for me. That can take years to achieve if you came from those roots (sometimes may even pick up wounds from parents, on that, and still struggle with it a generation down).

Good luck. It's hard, but it can be done.

[mom2boys]

One more pov about grandparents who offer their ideas of faith. My grandmother was super church lady. Went every Sunday, volunteered for anything and everything church related, always took me with her if I was visiting, gave me bibles as presents, gave me a necklace with a Jesus on the cross pendent that I wore for a long time. I love love love my grandmother. I have no idea how uncomfortable her actions might have made my parents – they never said or I simply don’t remember. Her faith is who she is – granted she’s never told me I am going to hell and if she told my child that we were – well, I honestly don’t know how that might fly – but she hasn’t. She just lives her faith and shares as she sees fit and I – her only grandchild – have simply chosen another path. And somehow she’s okay with that. She prays for me a lot, too. ;)