Jillian writes:
"N (boy) is 3 years old and toilet trained for pee and 'diaper trained' for poo. That is, he can control when he poos, but refuses to do it in the toilet. He holds it until he's in bed for nap or the night (the only time he gets a diaper) and then lets loose. I've tried every form of incentive and they don't work. He's done it a couple of times in the toilet for chocolate, a cupcake AND 'toilet fairy' stickers (yes, all at once!) but he's back to doing it in the diaper. He has a fearful reaction to the idea of sitting on the toilet for poo combined with that 3-year old need for control. I can't even make him do it in the diaper in the bathroom - he has to be in his bedroom. I'm not pushing the issue because I don't want him to get constipated but changing a 3 year old's poopy diaper is getting old fast. Quite frankly, it's gross.
Would love to hear from anyone who's been there, done that."
I have no idea. I wish I did, but as I say every time we have a potty learning question, both my boys trained themselves, and I was just kind of the facilitator (and my babysitter B, too, with the second one). So I really have no secrets or much to offer on this.
So I'm tossing it out to the readers, and hoping someone's been through this and has some words of advice for Jillian. I agree that it seems counterproductive to try to force it. Would it help to have N shadow another kid who poops in the toilet so he'd be encourage by peer pressure? It sounds like rewards aren't working. Anything else anyone can suggest?
My son did that same thing at that age, and I just kind of let it go until he was ready. I think the bigger deal you make the potty thing, the more some kids will try to fight it. I just offered it (and special treats) and didn't make a big deal out of it if he didn't choose to do it. I think his dad (we have separate households) had some success with putting a big, coveted toy (Thomas the Tank Engine) atop the toilet tank; the kiddo did get the toy when he pooped in the potty, but getting the toy didn't necessarily inspire consistency. Eventually the kiddo decided he was a "big boy" and started pooping in the potty more. Sitting on the toilet was scary for him, since he felt he might fall in, and his toilet seat adapter never fit right and therefore always wobbled. When he got bigger and felt bigger, he just started pooping in the potty more frequently and got M&Ms - his favorite - as a reward. Oh, and he didn't get M&Ms for anything else during this process, so he was a bit more motivated to use the potty. I know this is a rambling reply (my son woke me with a bad dream and now I'm the one awake), but I think your kid will eventually grow into the potty idea if you minimize pressure and keep some incentives around. :-)
Posted by: Beth | January 23, 2009 at 04:50 AM
I just stopped putting my child in diapers at night and for naps. There were maybe 2 or 3 messes, but after that she figured it out.
Posted by: Heather | January 23, 2009 at 06:43 AM
Same issue as the question. The more frustrated I got, the less willing he was to try. Finally I gave up, told him to let me know when he needed to poop so I could get a pull-up on him. When I gave in on the control issue, it was a short time (a few weeks) before he was going in the potty himself. Don't know why but it was not an argument I was willing to wrestle him with. I really just didn't care enough (I was pregnant with my second and having kidney stone issues daiy)
Posted by: jenarow | January 23, 2009 at 07:11 AM
I really hope people will weigh in on this one! One of my twins did the diaper pooping for a while, then just figured it out, and now she's fine. The other one (about to turn 3), went from running around the house doing it in the diaper to completely holding it. Now she goes every 3-4 days, is terribly constipated and uncomfortable, and it seems to be getting worse. I tried the M&Ms, but she didn't care. Now that it hurts to go poop, she really doesn't want to go at all. I tried giving her Miralax every day for a week, thinking it would soften her poop and move things along, but it sure didn't work on her. She's still terribly constipated.
Posted by: Gina | January 23, 2009 at 07:11 AM
My daughter gave up diapers all at once, but was afraid to poop in the potty for several WEEKS afterwards. Although she'd poop on the potty, it was every 4-5 days (instead of mostly every day, as she had done before) and accompanied by much crying and carrying on--not, thankfully, because she was constipated, just scared. We had a lot of discussions about pooping meaning that your body was working properly, how it was good, etc. Finally what did it for her was that another toddler friend had those flushable wipes that she used. It seemed ridiculous that THAT, of all things, would be the tipping point, but there's a 3 year old for you.
What I am trying to say is: be reassuring, be encouraging, but he'll have to come around on his own. Maybe you'll find some external motivator (a swimming experience that doesn't allow diapers, etc.?). If he has the physical control, then clearly it's a head game. Don't get sucked in (too much).
Posted by: Kate | January 23, 2009 at 07:25 AM
I've heard this from numerous friends and every time, it worked itself out.
I will note that one friend's went all the way to about four and a half, but he got it.
Pardon the pun: this, too, shall pass.
Posted by: Lee | January 23, 2009 at 07:44 AM
If you're down with the "let and go and just wait" approach, may I suggest getting a potty chair and putting it in his bedroom? Basically, break it down into two stages. If it's the bathroom that upsets him so much, let him poop somewhere else until he gets used to pooping in the potty and not in his diaper. Then work on getting him to use the real toilet.
Posted by: P. Cross | January 23, 2009 at 07:46 AM
No advice, lots of sympathy. We've been dealing with this problem exactly for months now, and it's starting to feel like it's never going to resolve.
Posted by: Christine | January 23, 2009 at 07:57 AM
My oldest did exactly this - was potty trained for pee pretty fast (by age 3), but only pooped in a diaper (would ask for a diaper, then hide in the closet!) for at least 6 months after that. Since we'd had some bad episodes of constipation from deliberate withholding, we decided that if she was happily and healthily pooping in a diaper every day, we were okay with that. In a resigned sort of way.
The long winter break when she was 3.5 turned the corner for us - she was home a lot (we both WOH, so she had been in day care, in panties) and it turned out she needed to poop about mid-day. When she was in daycare she'd been holding it back until she could go home and get a diaper and poop in the closet, but with the break we got her adjusted to pooping on the toilet when the urge first struck. Note: PRAISE TO THE SKIES when that poop in the potty happens. When daycare started up again she took to waiting to poop until she was home in the evenings, but would go on the potty. She didn't poop in any toilet other than in our house until she was well past four (this made travel a real issue!), and still (at 5.5) prefers to poop at home if at all possible.
We've had well more than our share of poop accidents in panties - including this year - when she gets stressed, she poops in her pants, oh joy - and let me tell you, if you think changing 3 year old diapers is gross, you ain't seen nothing until you've dealt with poopy panties on a 5 year old.
Posted by: flea | January 23, 2009 at 08:33 AM
I don't have any ideas, but a friend of mine is going through this, too--her son is the same age and holds poops for his nap diaper. She's also having the problem of them being complete blow-outs because of the holding-it-in.
The potty chair in the bedroom sounds like a pretty good idea, right before naptime and maybe let him have some alone time on it so he doesn't feel pressured.
On a side note, I've been working on having a happy face on when I change the Pea's dirty diapers. I realized that I don't want him to associate poop with "YUCK!" (even though it is).
Posted by: karen | January 23, 2009 at 08:39 AM
Maybe even let him sit on the potty chair in the bedroom with his diaper still on.
Posted by: karen | January 23, 2009 at 08:40 AM
This was totally my son. He pee trained at 2.5 all on his own and then would request a pull-up for poop. No incentives/bribery worked as for him it seemed to be more of an issue with the physiology of pooping while sitting.
We tried various times not buying diapers, making him change himself, etc. but he would just withhold until he was in severe pain and I would give in. Finally we set a date of past his 5th birthday (thus the change yourself aspect) there would be no pull-ups.
This time before he started withholding we loaded him up on poop friendly food and then we gave him a little bit of a laxative (epson salts in water) and as he did NOT want to poop in his underwear, the urgency of needing to poop got him to use the potty. As he needed to do this a couple of times that day he was able to sit and get his body used to pooping that way. We had no further issues.
Obviously, 5 is rather extreme and I would definitely NOT do any sort of laxative with a 3 year old. (I still feel rather guilty.) But I would work on feeding fiber heavy foods in hopes of short-circuiting the thought process involved in pooping.
(My 2.5 year old had no issues.)
Posted by: Still Slightly Bothered | January 23, 2009 at 08:57 AM
Oh wow, I could have written this too, and I'm so glad to see how common it is. I have no advice either, just more data points: my son will say "I NEED A DIAPER!!!" (and sometimes, "I don't want to poop in the potty," "When I'm bigger," and "but I LIKE cold wipes!"). He waits til bedtime, and has to hold my hands while I stand up. Once a few weeks ago he really really had to poo, and I was just stepping out of the shower in my parents' apartment. I told him he could either go now in the potty or wait until I got some clothes on, and he waited, wimpering,until the second the diaper and jeans were back on.
This is a kid who showed no interest in the potty for about 7 months, and then trained himself (daycare helps) in a couple of days. He's a month past his third birthday, and I'm going to wait it out. I will ask him, each time, if he wants the potty, and then let it go when he refuses. My feeling is that it helps him to know that we respect his decision and trust him.
@Lee, wow, 4 1/2.
@Jenarow, sorry about the kidney stones - ouch. Hope they, too, passed. :)
Posted by: emily | January 23, 2009 at 08:59 AM
Mine did this too for months after training. He got it in the end after I eased off grumbling, and instead said 'Never mind, when you are bigger you'll get it/ everyone works it out eventually' So not over-praise , just confidence that he would get there. In the end I took a nappy off after he'd pooed a bit (& when I knew there was more), got him to sit on the potty while I very slowly fetched another nappy, and lo and behold, poo came before the nappy arrived. Sneaky. He still demanded a whole row of Thomas stickers. Good luck.
Posted by: laury | January 23, 2009 at 09:11 AM
i had to let it go, too- pnut is pretty much trained now, and yes, she did it when she was ready, when she wanted to, etc etc etc- and not a minute earlier. changing poopy diapers sucked for both parties, and we let her know that we weren't enjoying it, either, and when she was ready to use the potty it would be much easier to clean up. eventually, she figured it out. she's 3.5 now and it's only been the past few months.
we used a lot of "your body will tell you when it's time" (thanks hedra!) and then when she would sit there, my sister suggested giving her a book to read (out loud) and that the poops would come out to hear the story (dear lord). we also used jellybeans as rewards, one for #1, 2 for #2, and that was somewhat of an incentive.
but to be honest, i really think the biggest incentive for her was peer pressure- there is an older, not super nice girl in her class (she is with 3 and 4 year olds) who is adept at smelling blood in the water and calling kids out for, well, anything- and would call the pnut a baby for wearing a pullup to school (she was wearing big girl undies at home, pullup to school and at night/nap) and pnut was so hurt by the teasing- first, of course we dealt w/ the teasing at school, but it was also an opportunity to teach her that big kids wear big kid underpants all the time. which to me, a sensitive person who suffered the cruelties of other kids when *i* was a kid, seemed a horrible way to learn a lesson, but...
i know charisse will fill you in on the poop present idea, thank god we didn't have to get that far. it's hard, but maybe it's ok to just wait a little longer til he's ready...good luck!
Posted by: pnuts mama | January 23, 2009 at 09:26 AM
well peeing in the potty was easy for us... but poop, well she would hold it for over 12 hours... and then only diaper time would she poop... so I kept the diaper off, and just wanted to see what she'd do, she started being a little upset, I told her to sit on the potty. She did a little (lots of praising her). She used to go once or twice a day, that dropped...
SO one day, she was peeing on the potty and then found she needed to do #2 as well...and she was about to stand up and scream for a diaper, and I just sat there next to hear, just kept telling her it's okay to poop in the potty, and it might feel weird at first, but the bum stays cleaner going poop in the potty. I didn't give her a chance or space to move out and demand the diaper... but I didn't hold her down either... she was just scared of the sensation I think...
and after that she started doing her regular routine,and we just finally got her onto the regular potty after using a stand along kid's potty and then a kids toilet seat on the regular potty.
It really helped when she saw other kids go potty and that it wasn't a bad experience for them... she adjusted.. but she was 3years and about 3 months old before everything clicked...
still haven't gotten night time training...I'm not even worried about it yet...
Posted by: Shalini | January 23, 2009 at 09:26 AM
well peeing in the potty was easy for us... but poop, well she would hold it for over 12 hours... and then only diaper time would she poop... so I kept the diaper off, and just wanted to see what she'd do, she started being a little upset, I told her to sit on the potty. She did a little (lots of praising her). She used to go once or twice a day, that dropped...
SO one day, she was peeing on the potty and then found she needed to do #2 as well...and she was about to stand up and scream for a diaper, and I just sat there next to hear, just kept telling her it's okay to poop in the potty, and it might feel weird at first, but the bum stays cleaner going poop in the potty. I didn't give her a chance or space to move out and demand the diaper... but I didn't hold her down either... she was just scared of the sensation I think...
and after that she started doing her regular routine,and we just finally got her onto the regular potty after using a stand along kid's potty and then a kids toilet seat on the regular potty.
It really helped when she saw other kids go potty and that it wasn't a bad experience for them... she adjusted.. but she was 3years and about 3 months old before everything clicked...
still haven't gotten night time training...I'm not even worried about it yet...
Posted by: Shalini | January 23, 2009 at 09:28 AM
You described the situation we just went through with our daughter. I thought it would never end and, yes, it was so gross to change naptime and bedtime diapers for a child over the age of three. We tried rewards of all shapes and sizes. It never worked. We fought with her and tried to convince her to use the potty (we knew she could). It never worked. It was SO frustrating. She's so smart and verbal and we knew she totally understood what we wanted and needed her to do. But she had us on this one. She had to make up her own mind.
Although this is probably what you want to hear, it just took time. She was 3 1/2 when she just suddenly, for seemingly no particular reason, started using the potty for #2 on her own. Friends told me that was what it would take--she would have to decide to do it herself. In our case they were right. We had to wait it out and let her decide. The upside is that since she decided to use only the potty for #2, she's never had an accident.
Good luck! I know it's tough.
Posted by: Colleen | January 23, 2009 at 09:36 AM
No time to read all of the replies, may repeat...
1) For the ones who have a negative/pain experience in their history, it takes a good while on a stool softening protocol (either fruit-based or meds-based) to get them past the fear clench. Sometimes months. Work on the fear first, the potty behavior second. You can't really do the potty stuff effectively WITH the fear in place.
2) for the avoidance/shame/hiding/location-specific pooping... Mr B was a hide-to-poop kid, in part because his poop was so bad. Acid burn diarrhea much of the time (result of fructose malabsorption and a passion for fructose-rich foods, including wheat). Sigh. I did my usual research, and the main recommendation is to PRAISE ALL POOP. No matter where, how, or when, the more confident and pleased and satisfied they are with having pooped at all, the easier it is for them to choose to go along with pooping *where* you would like them to. We had poop parties, sang songs about poop, praised his pooping and the poop. It worked. Even though he still had urgency and potential burns, he just *on his own* transitioned to the potty. I chose not to be bothered by the gross, stink, or age issues, as an intentional act. The less I was bothered, the easier he was about moving to the potty.
Kids who hide to poop in particular tend to potty train around 4 1/2 years old (eep) UNLESS the shame/fear/guilt/anger issue is managed for them (they can't manage the emotional process until around 4 or so, on their own - they need help with the emotions if they're 'stuck' in those feelings by around 3 or so).
In general, potty behavior is self-motivated. You can definitely take their own self-motivating behavior and use it to your advantage, if you can figure out what it is. Some kids really do respond to rewards/bribes, some to curiosity (the poop-presents thing, did anyone mention that?), some are motivated by other things. I think Mr B was motivated by simplicity - it became simpler to poop in the potty, and he could get on with his life more quickly if he did. Mr G was motivated by not liking a teacher (and therefore not wanting her involved too much - it was potty or her changing his pullup, and that was a NO GO for him, so he trained in one day just because she pinched his chubby little face, once, all Italian-gradma-style.) I don't even remember Miss M and Miss R, other than they messed around with the idea forever, started being interested early, interest went back and forth, one of them trained first by a long margin (R? I really don't recall), but it was relatively painless on all parts. :shrug:
Posted by: hedra | January 23, 2009 at 09:50 AM
I was about to suggest the potty chair in the bedroom, too, but I see that a few people beat me to it! My son was so much more comfortable using one of those than a regular toilet for a while--he could put his feet on the floor, he didn't have to climb up, and he didn't have far to run once he realized that he had to go NOW.
You could also have him change his own diaper/pullup--take it off, wipe himself, get a new one, put it on (if it's a pullup). In other words, remove just about every advantage to wearing a diaper there is. It sounds like you don't want to force the issue by going cold turkey on the diapers (and I agree not to make it a power struggle), but that doesn't mean you have to make using diapers super convenient for him!
Or you could have a long-term goal for him once he's poop trained. It could be that you take him out to dinner at a place he picks, an all-day outing for big boys (amusement park, science center), or even a small party with friends. Something that you can plan quickly, for some time in the indefinite future--like after he's pooped in the toilet for a week, or ten times (even nonconsecutive), or something where he gets in the habit of using the toilet before he gets the reward. But no pressure on when that has to be.
Good luck. I've been there, and now at almost 5 he poops, wipes himself, and usually remembers to flush! He also seems to have inherited the man gene that requires him to bellow "I HAVE TO POOP" and disappear into the bathroom for at least 15 minutes.
Posted by: Clare | January 23, 2009 at 09:56 AM
We are *exactly* in this position with our daughter, who will be 4 in May.
Hedra, what you said about praising all poop (!) seems the most promising of everything recommended here, for our situation, i.e. the only thing we haven't already tried ad nauseum. What / where did you read about this angle?
Posted by: caro | January 23, 2009 at 10:13 AM
This does resolve on its own. Sometimes offering to have the child sit on the potty with the diaper on helps a lot. Also naked time generally is extremely effective at all levels of potty training. It really helps them listen to their body and manage how to react when they feel the sensation coming on.
I will also chime in with (and this may be misunderstood so I hope I don't offend anyone) there is an advantage to doing potty learning earlier rather than later if possible and often times your kids will give you a window to do it. The common wisdom these days seems to be that kids will do it own their own and that means not even suggesting or introducing potty until they have initiated it. And I think that kids can generally be taught earlier than they are these days (and again, not all). My daughter was interested in using the potty right after she turned 2. However she didn't fully train (daytime) for months after that simply because her daycare teachers didn't want to deal with it. Once she switched rooms to teachers who wanted the kids trained, she was done. Little kids generally need help with this but it's easier to have them trained when they're little and other changes are also happening somewhat regularly. My son also trained when he was just over 2 and the biggest issues we've had have been the same ones with my daughter - when there is inconsistency, i.e. pullups half the time, it cause confusion and backsliding. My overall point is that at 3 you are now dealing with a whole other set of behaviors that have become entrenched and the need for control has really set in. Sometimes it's easier to bite the bullet and do this sooner rather than later if you are seeing any evidence from your child that they are interested. Again, just my .02 but it may help others who are reading this with littler ones.
Posted by: MLB | January 23, 2009 at 10:15 AM
A friend's kid did this. She didn't put a diaper on him and made him clean up his own poop. Then he decided the potty was nicer.
Easier said than done!
Posted by: Eva | January 23, 2009 at 10:28 AM
No help, just sympathy---if it makes you feel any better, it seems like everyone I know with boys has had a hard time training them. So it seem to be going around :-), and you're not alone!
Posted by: AmyinMotown | January 23, 2009 at 10:52 AM
Not sure if this will help... but my nephew was always terrified of falling into the potty when he had to poop. The magic solution was to have him sit backwards. That way he could hold on to the tank and he felt more secure.
Posted by: JenR | January 23, 2009 at 10:59 AM
Just a thought ... and this is not meant to be judgmental to Jillian because she is where she is ... but I wonder if there has developed more resistance to potty training by kids because we wait so much longer now?
In my limited experience with potty training, when I started young (barely 2) there were a lot of accidents, but no resistance ... a 2 year old was more malleable than a 3 year old.
I guess you choose your poison (the families I know where they waited until 3 to potty train had very few accidents, whereas we had TONS in the beginning). And you never know which kids are going to be resistant. Just a thought ...
Posted by: Carla Hinkle | January 23, 2009 at 11:08 AM
This is exactly how my son was potty trained. At 3 years 7 mos I told him I wasn't buying anymore diapers and that once the ones in his closet were gone he was going to have to poop in the potty.
It was a gamble that worked. DS carefully monitored the diapers and when the last one was used I told him it was the last one. It had taken almost two months since he was only using one/day. At the same time he was in a preschool that didn't allow diapers so he'd really practiced controll by then:)
The next day, due to some benign neglect, playdate distractions, he pooped in the potty, no muss, no fuss and has ever since.
I totally let him "own" it and it worked, I think you are doing fine and just need to keep watching and waiting. I know changing poop diapers stinks, but I prefer the gentle method and it sounds like you do too. Your boy will be pooping on the potty soon enough and you'll be shocked to suddenly have no diapers:)
Posted by: MotherLawyer | January 23, 2009 at 11:16 AM
ACK< I forgot the M&M part.
I bribed him for each poop. For a while.
I had tried the toy thing, but he thought it was a one time transaction. I finally figured he required regular "payment". So I did.
It only lasted the length of one pack of mini packs of MMs, but it was worth it!
He has totally forgotten that he was ever "paid to poop" and hasn't asked for it in at least two months.
Posted by: MotherLawyer | January 23, 2009 at 11:27 AM
My older one did this and it drove me crazy. She would even ASK for a diaper to poop in (if I didn't give her one, she waited until bedtime).
What finally solved it for us was an idea I got here.
We went to the dollar store and bought about 15 little things that we figured the Munchkin would like. I wrapped them up in tissue paper with ribbon -- just like a present. Then I put them all in a basket and put the basket in the bathroom.
We told her that any time she pooped on the potty, she could choose and open one present.
She had her pants down before I could finish my sentence. She wasn't able to produce anything then, but about 45 minutes later she squeezed out the tiniest of turds and was delighted by the present.
For awhile, I'm sure she was deliberately controlling it (pooping just a tiny bit at a time, in order to get more "events" out of one need) but we just went with it. We were totally consistent with the present basket -- it went to grandma's to the babysitter's, when we were out and about running errands (it stayed in the trunk :) -- we're not totally crazy).
After awhile, when she had established a habit, we went from one present per poop to a sticker-per-poop with a present at the end of a row on a chart, and we gradually phased it out.
I was skeptical about this method because I'd tried bribes before and gotten nowhere (I'd tried everything from no-comment to, in not my finest parenting moment, shouting in her face and telling her we weren't leaving the bathroom until she pooped on the damn potty.) but this worked, and it was immediate.
I'm sure if you leave it alone, it'll EVENTUALLY sort itself out, but I do have one friend whose little boy continued to poop in his underpants clear up until kindergarten. I was just not willing to take that kind of chance.
Good luck!
Posted by: Jan | January 23, 2009 at 11:33 AM
Going through this with 3.1 ds. He has resisted every step of potty training but ends up proud of himself once he is cajoled through the process of mastering a new skill. Right now we're working on the pooping and it's exactly like Jillian's situation, except sometimes there is no nap diaper because there is no nap.
My husband believes in the Colin Powell doctrine of going in with overwhelming force (bribery) and so we started giving matchbox cars for every poop, and this lasted for about two cars. Right now we are trying a method where he got a really great prize for a poop (and he'll try really hard with the right incentive) but the toy is only visiting. The toy stays as long as poops keep going in the potty. This feels just on the line of being too punitive, but I think we're selling it in a gentle way, and three days into it, it's semi-successful. He has pooped in a diaper but then shortly afterward will poop a bit more in the potty. We'll see....
Posted by: tina | January 23, 2009 at 11:48 AM
@caro, developmental pediatrics and developmental psychology journals. :)
@Jan, thanks for outlining the poop presents thing - that's one that I encountered here but didn't need. It does a good job of engaging a natural motivator - CURIOSITY!
Also, on the early vs late - it's not wrong to go for early, definitely! There are many windows of opportunity, not just one. Me and my sibs were all trained gently and without fuss by 22 months - but, my mom had three factors in her favor: 1) it was warm enough in So Cal to let us run about naked or bare bottomed year-round, 2) she had a lifestyle that allowed for doing this 24/7 (not childcare/work), and 3) she didn't care if there were messes to clean up, it was all part of the progress. Oh, and add in UNCOMFORTABLE CLOTH DIAPERS (not the comfy ones that everyone gets nowadays).
She tried the same with my kids, and even having them for the summer, no go. The biggest differences are weather and the comfort of the non-pottying option, we think. I know I certainly couldn't wait to get out of those dang plastic covers with the ouchy elastic, and I hated the way the cloth diapers felt (bulk-wise). It was blessed freedom to not have diapers on... having to put them on to go places was probably not fun (I don't remember that part, but I do remember being pissed off once when we were out because of the bulk messing with my movement and balance).
Posted by: hedra | January 23, 2009 at 12:05 PM
We watched "Once Upon A Potty" on You Tube for three consecutive nights - worked like a charm once my 2.5 year old saw how the whole poo poo in the potty was supposed to work. Kandoo wipes helped too, made her feel special. I would get rid of the diapers, but that's just me. Maybe the food rewards don't help b/c if he is constipated more food just causes cramps?
Posted by: Badger | January 23, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Oh, man. I just remembered one of the motivations for one of my kids. Heh. Access to her parts was soooo much easier with panties. Access to Favorite Toys as a motivating factor? Snort!
Posted by: hedra | January 23, 2009 at 12:07 PM
Hey, we're going through this now, too.
He's in daycare and evidently immune to peer pressure. Also, just putting him on the potty won't work, because he will arch his back if we try it. Imagine the cleanup after that.
Once again, I turn to the path of wait-it-out parenting.
I will say that I am ignoring the whole "Don't show distaste" talk about inducing shame in one's bodily function. I've gotten pretty blunt about saying that poop is gross and I don't enjoy cleaning it up, so I will be happy when he poops in the potty. And now when he sits to pee, he announces that he's going to try to poop, too.
Then after dinner, he leaves the room. "Do you need to poop?" "Yes." "Want to try on the potty?" "No."
Posted by: Slim | January 23, 2009 at 12:40 PM
Same *exact* situation in our house. We tried EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING (read: every single suggestion above).
We applied other personality traits to our DS. He has some confident issues, and it really was about "failure" to him. Why try something if I'm just going to fail? So we had to back off in a major way about "accidents," and build up his confidence (e.g., "I know you can do it. I know it's hard, but you can do it, and I will help you.")
As a result of his fear of failure, he started holding it, which would make for huge, hard bms. Jillian -- are his stools hard? What we figured out was going on was that he had been holding for so long that his colon was stretched, so he never even felt the urge to go! We did Mirlax (at the advice of 2 different pediatricians) to loosen the stools, shrink the colon, and re-establish the urge and healthy patterns and habits. It took about two months on a daily dose of the Mirlax, but now he goes at 1:00 on.the.dot everyday. He still doesn't go on his own, but when we discovered he was going every day at 1:00, and his bms were finally soft and fluffy, we sat him on the toilet (even though he cried) and he did it. Once he had some success of going at the same time, and it not hurting, and getting his confidence, something clicked. It took about two or three weeks of it, but now he goes every day at 1:00 (with us reminding him) and has only had two "accidents" in two weeks. Believe me, that's a far cry from where we were a month ago, which was pooping two or three times a day in his underpants.
BTW, he'll be 4 in March. We started the potty training a year ago. He has been "pee" trained for almost a year.
The other thing that we did was gave him control of other things so that the poop issue got the backseat as far as "control" goes. He has three little chores that he does, with a chart. The chores have nothing at all to do with the potty. So he gets stickers on his "responsibility chart" and we let him be in control of that. Psychologically, we have noticed that that has helped to build up his confidence, too.
Posted by: professor mama | January 23, 2009 at 12:42 PM
I'm not there yet since my little boy is only 18 months old. But we've already had issues with him holding in his poop. He's had some problems with constipation in the past (too much banana & oatmeal daily) and has had some pretty painful bowel movements. Now he's scared to go so he just holds it in. He poops only every 3-4 days even though it's soft and easy for him to pass. If this continues, it seems that it will make potty training much harder in the future. Is there anything I can be doing now to make him more comfortable / less scared of pooping?
Posted by: jules | January 23, 2009 at 12:46 PM
we strangely had no problem with poop, but tons of trouble getting him to pee in the potty - lots of deliberate accidents.
hershey kisses worked for us as "rewards" - with M&Ms he wanted the whole package, with the kisses he was able to unwrap it, etc.
good luck!
Posted by: SJ | January 23, 2009 at 12:49 PM
oh this was us. Bean pee trained at 2.5 w/maybe one accident the first day of undies. I brought the Baby Bjorn potty in the car w/us & would rush him out there because he wouldn't pee in public restrooms.
Pooping on the other hand became more & more ritualized, I need to poop! followed by dipe or Pullup. then he HAD to have the proper set of trucks then standing in corner of room.
I praised all poop, tried diaper on potty chair, naked time, tried potty in his special corner. Finally at 3.2, I said, no problem pooping in Pull up, no problem pooping w/trucks, but everyone poops in the bathroom. You can have diaper or pull up, trucks, but we do it in bathroom.
He chose the potty w/no diaper which really surprised me. I also introduced concept of The Poop Fairy, who would bring him a present after pooping (I didn't have room for a basket of wrapped stuff in tiny BR.) Initially he was really stressed out, but I sat on the bathroom floor next to his potty chair & read 5 or 6 books. sometimes he'd need to take a break until the next urge to go & we'd rush in & read more books. he'd eventually go, and be so thrilled. we'd call his dad & grandma & make a to-do.
I made the mistake having the Poop fairy arrive the following morning the first day so he was up at the crack of dawn! learned my lesson & she tended to sneak in shortly after he pooped. it was fun trying to sneak the gift in. we used playdoh & stickers as gifts. eventually switched from gift every poop, to gift after a week-10 days of stickers on calendar, to a bigger 'graduation' gift.
he's only pooped once on a public toilet & this was after 2 days of being on the go & him holding it (and it was THE nastiest public restroom ever!) but he's still so proud. we're now trying to transition to pooping on the big toilet.
he's still only pooping at home which is difficult, at times I worry a lot about it, other times, I just go with it.
good luck!
Posted by: Lisa F. | January 23, 2009 at 01:02 PM
Ah yes, I am in this boat, too. Just turned 3 boy, very persistant, sensitive personality. I do feel that we missed our window of sorts...last summer he was running around naked at the beach and peeing enthusiastically on every bush. Fast forward to colder weather, and the potty learning seems much more about his control.
He did pee learn very quickly (will have a dry diaper and pee every time when he's with us), in about 2 weeks. He has adamantly refused underwear, pull-ups, and peeing on the toilet at daycare. He has *taken a stand*. I know from experience that he is FAR more persistant than I am and will carry this to the ends of the earth if I push it.
So now we just encourage every little effort (last night he pooped in his diaper, but then agreed to sit on the potty afterwards, OK, *small* progress) and he tells us he'll poop on the potty and pee on the potty at daycare "when he's a big boy". Clearly, he has his own timetable.
I feel like it's his body, and I can't, and wouldn't want to, force him to do something with it he doesn't want to.
Bribes (candy, stickers, wrapped up matchbox cars) worked a bit in the beginning, but the consistency in the pee thing only happened when he became proud of his efforts. So I suppose the same thing will have to happen with the poo.
I think what's suprised my husband and I the most about parenting is that everything is just a series of stages. You get them through the sleep issue stage, and you're feeling confident, and then something else happens. We're just in the toilet stage now. I'm sure once that's figured out, it'll be something else. At least it's never dull around here!
Posted by: meggiemoo | January 23, 2009 at 01:18 PM
I also feel like the transition from standing to poop (in a diaper) to sitting down on a toilet is a difficult one for our son. He pees standing up, and likes to move around as he poops, so I think the thought of sitting to poop seems super foreign to him. Haven't yet figured out how to work that one out...
Posted by: meggiemoo | January 23, 2009 at 01:21 PM
My best friend had this issue with her daughter from the time she was pee-trained (about 2.5) until she was almost FOUR! She refused, under all circumstances, to poop in the toilet.
She would tell her parents she needed a diaper, poop in it, and then asked to be changed. And if the diaper was withheld she would also hold her poop and make herself sick.
Her mom and dad went through various stages of frustration with this - and tried everything from rewards to "big girl" talk, princess panties, etc.
About 6 weeks before her 4th birthday her Dad left the marriage. Two days later she told her mom she was a big girl and didn't need a diaper anymore. She was just done.
Posted by: Michelle | January 23, 2009 at 01:49 PM
oh thank you Jan, I'm not sure I want to be forever known as the "poop presents" lady ;-) --but it did come through with a huge success for us in a very similar situation. I think hedra is right that curiosity is a key factor, and then having the curiosity rewarded by something great (and really, great to a 3-year-old can be quite inexpensive). Let me add on a couple of key points from the Pantley book where I found the idea, for anybody thinking of trying it:
-she suggests (and we did) placing the bowl of presents and then SAYING NOTHING, so already engaging the curiosity that way
-then, when the kid inevitably asks what the deal is, you give a minimal answer--just "those are your poop presents" and change the subject
-wait --it might take a few days--for the kid to ask "what's a poop present?" and then, again, "oh, you get one whenever you poop in the potty" and change the subject
-then, wait for the uptake from the kid--in Mouse's case, it was about a week from placement of bowl to first potty poop, but she never looked back from there
-Pantley suggests that many kids will be happy to have you wrap up the same set of presents and do it again (we didn't, we just kept winding down the coolness level until we got the kind of tiny plastic animals that you get 20 in a bag for $2)
This method doesn't work for everybody, of course, but it was like magic for us after trying several other kinds of rewards without success.
Hang in there!
Posted by: Charisse | January 23, 2009 at 02:12 PM
We had this problem with my daughter until she was just over 3. Totally dry day and night and had been for a long time but insited on pooing in a naoppy. She would wear panties all day then insist on a nappy - sorry diaper - would go and get them from the cupboard. We started off by putting a diaper in a potty and persuading her to do the poo on that in the potty. Once she did that regularly we encouraged her to put some toilet paper in the loo and then do the poo on that. It took a few weeks of that until she was fine without toilet paper in there. It still took some months to persuade her to go to loos outside the house for a poo but one day she just decided it wasn't worth trying to hang on and she was fine to poo wherever.
Posted by: Betty M | January 23, 2009 at 02:28 PM
The key thing to listen to is the fearful of going poop part. The fact that he's at least going in a diaper is a good thing. Talk to your pediatrician about more ideas but you do NOT want a child to become so afraid that they withhold period, because it causes so much stress and pain it can take a lot of time (and sometimes even counseling to overcome it). My eldest son has been on Miralax for almost 4 years now, and a family friend has been on Miralax going on 5 years. Both were so terrified of pooping that it led to serious withholding that can in turn lead to physical complications.
My pediatrician's recommendation was to give them the diaper and see if they will sit on the potty (with the lid closed) to go. And gradually encourage them from there. Since he's comfortable going in his room I'd put a potty chair in there first to see if he'll sit on it with diaper on and then gradually move it to the bathroom.
Potty training with my oldest son was a nightmare- we tried every bribe and praise in the book but there was nothing we could do to help him overcome his fear until we got him on medication (miralax) and gradually encouraged him to go in the toilet. His training process took years (quite frankly we still have to encourage him to go and he's almost 7), and most parents have no idea of just how difficult it can be to overcome a significant potty fear.
My second son fully potty trained himself before the age of 2 (I give him credit because I learned how really difficult it can be with a nonresponsive child) and we are so greatful to have not been put through the nightmare again. Best wishes and just remember to stay patient- you are not alone and eventually he *will* get it!
Posted by: Yolanda | January 23, 2009 at 03:05 PM
I haven't had a chance to read all the comments, but I WILL soon because we are in almost the exact situation! My 3-year-old has amazing control of both bladder and bowels and can go diaper-less for 6 hours or more but then asks for a diaper and refuses to go on the potty. We might have had a breakthrough two days ago though! She has had a nasty diaper rash off and on for weeks. Two days ago I told her (for the hundredth time, I'm sure) the only way to make her bottom feel better was to go on the potty. So after lunch, when she'd been diaper free for about 5 hours, I put the potty on the floor in front of the TV. She sat there for an hour watching PBS, and at the end she'd peed and pooped!!! She's doing better at using the potty now, both in the bathroom and the TV room. My friend says I should write a book, "Once upon a potty in front of a TV."
Posted by: Marie | January 23, 2009 at 03:33 PM
I did not read all the comments, so my apologies if this is a repeat. But my sister had this trouble with my nephew - who is now 12 - and she cut a hole in his diaper and had him sit on the toilet while wearing it. It's a technique she learned as a special needs teacher!
Posted by: Dr. Maureen | January 23, 2009 at 03:57 PM
Cutting the hole in the diaper may be the most brilliant idea I have ever heard! I am not sure I could get my son to sit on the potty long enough (even in a diaper, and heck we haven't even had one successful pee in the potty). This is definitely going into my "possible" file for the future!
Posted by: Michelle | January 23, 2009 at 04:26 PM
Oh ugh, we are so in the thick of this here. My son is almost 3.5, and he's been doing OK -- not great, but pretty well -- with the pee but refusing to poop (anywhere, not just in the toilet). I know he has inherited my anal-retentive (god, I never thought I'd be using that phrase in the literal sense) perfectionism, and I think I laid it on too thick at first about keeping his undies dry and clean.
Meanwhile, his preschool hasn't helped matters AT ALL. I've been trying desperately to convince him that it's not the end of the world if he has an accident, and the teachers acted all proud when he first showed up in underwear, but a few days ago he had 3 poop accidents, and the director called me and not very nicely informed me that I had to take him home. He was SO upset at being sent home (and to make matters worse, they made ME go get him out of his favorite room and tell him why he had to go home), and now I feel like we've been set back 6 months in the whole training thing. How the @*&$ am I supposed to train a kid who's prone to withholding if he's not allowed to have accidents at school? Or explain to him that he's allowed to have 1 accident, but not 2?
At the moment we're back to diapers at preschool (which of course makes him feel humiliated and angry) and underwear at home, but that's ridiculously inconsistent. I am so angry and frustrated, and any advice would be so very, very welcome (oh, and FYI -- preschool doesn't allow pull-ups, which would at least allow him to preserve a shred of dignity).
Posted by: N | January 23, 2009 at 04:42 PM
My son just turned 2, and a few of his close-in-age friends (mostly girls, but even a couple of boys) are already at least partially potty trained. And I see from the comments here that this is not entirely uncommon in the wider world, either.
This blows my mind. My son has a BIG language delay and some very minor motor delays, so I realize that my experience of a 2 year old is not necessarily like everyone else's experience of a 2 year old. But still. I look at my son, and I see a child who just learned a week ago how to shake his head "yes" or "no." How would he ever tell me that he needs to go potty? He is utterly oblivious to the presence of poop in his diaper. His language skills aren't quite at the point where he understands bribes yet. And he never, never, never sits still - potty or anywhere else. I'm so envious that people can do it at this age, but HOW?
Posted by: stacy | January 23, 2009 at 04:45 PM
My son did the exact same thing. He would also start pooping in his underwear when I refused to buy more diapers. I then stopped putting anything on him altogether. He went around the house naked and I told him when he felt like he had to poop or pee that he could YELL, "I HAVE TO GO POO POO/PEE PEE. Then he would run to the toilet and out it came. It took several days of no clothes at all for him to get down pooping every day in the potty, but it worked.
Posted by: Sharon Dixon | January 23, 2009 at 05:21 PM