Q&A: four-year-olds and weird social issues

I didn't really think of it in the name reveal post, but you can call me whatever you want now, as long as it isn't late for supper. (Thank you--I'll be here all week.)

Since this was an IM question posed to me late at night by a friend, I'm going to have to paraphrase it here:

"My 4-year-old daughter has a close friend with lots of Disney princess stuff--dolls, nightgowns, etc.--and she only has one or two DP things. She's constantly talking about the things her friend has, and how she wishes she had things like the friend does. How can I deal with this, while also not completely losing my patience with her?"

I think a lot of this is about the age. 4 seems to be a time when kids really start to be aware of social things in a way they never were before. Before this it's like they're really interested in one-to-one interaction. But at 4 they start to figure out social dynamics and how people related to each other in different groups.

One of the things that was striking to me when my older one was in preschool was how squirrely all the kids got about attending birthday parties. Even the parties of kids they'd been friends with since infancy. They'd be excited about the party, and then the day of the party decide they didn't want to go.

I think it's just the beginning of figuring out who they are in relation to other people and to groups of other people.

So I don't really know what to say about the friend situation. It's not really going to help to point out what she has that the friend doesn't (toys, baby sibling, etc.), because a 4-year-old can't see things in that way.

The only thing I can think of is to talk to the mom of the friend to see what her daughter has been saying. It's possible that the other girl has been making similar statements about your daughter, so the issue really isn't the actual toys at all, but the "why am I not her?" thing. Which is normal, but still perplexing. And annoying.

Readers? Have any of you gone through this? How did you deal with it?

Comments

[MemeGRL]

Thanks for this. While this is a not-particularly-helpful comment, at least it's Disney Princesses--for my son, it was his obsession with his friend's obsession with guns. And as treacly and sexist as DPs can be, I'm on firmer ground there than I am with explaining why it's ok for K to have fifty guns (no joke) and my son to have none. It's a relief to know other kids are doing it too--that, and the birthday party thing. Oh, that drives me crazy still.
A friend who works with young children told me she heard at a seminar that it can take literally 5000 repetitions for some kids to get some ideas through. So as I talked once again about gun safety with my son I just mentally counted: 1009....2193....
So not much help but a big relieved Thank You for reminding me again that I'm not actually out here in the wilderness alone.

[Perfectly Disgraceful]

I have two girls, one is ten and one is three. My observations, based on them and their friends, lead me to believe that some of this is personality. Some kids are just a little more jealous than others and will notice other kids' possessions and work up a lot of envy.

I've dealt with some of this with my older kid by calling it "a case of the I wants." We go to Target and we want everything we see and we get a "bad case of the I wants." And we talk about it while it's going on and make it a little jokey. I think it's okay to want stuff that other kids have, and it's okay to talk about it, but it can be turned around into a discussion of how cool all that stuff is and how nice it would be to have it, but we just can't have everything we want.

If there is ever something my older kid has wanted for a really long time, I will usually break down and get it. I tried, oh I tried, to avoid the American Girl doll obsession (I still can't believe how insanely expensive they are), but at the same time I didn't want it to turn into a Thing. So when it became clear that my older kid really wanted one, and had wanted one for several years, and the cheapo Target knock-off was not going to substitute, I gave in. But she only has one.

So, I'm trying to maintain some balance between letting my kids know it's okay to want stuff they don't have, especially since I certainly feel that way sometimes, but to not let that wanting make them feel bad. I also want them to learn how to deal with those feelings and how to discern when they do actually want something enough to work toward it.

Also? That age has a sick obsession with Disney Princesses (it's pretty much my younger kid's only topic of conversation) and I just try not to care because I know it will end in a year or two. I would suggest giving in a little bit and buying one or two more cheap DP things, or close substitutes. And then pretend to love DP as much as she does. Really, DP will be over soon. Six at the latest. And then it will be American Girl dolls. Sigh.

[Kate]

I was the late-night friend bothering Moxie over IM, so I just wanted to add that it extends beyond the princesses (and to be honest--that's the least of it, because neither kid has seen the Disney movies so it's really just pretend play with DP dressup).

Things my daughter would like that her friend has include: ballet lessons, crocs, straight hair (!!), and a baby sister (!!! in addition to, not instead of, her younger brother).

At least she doesn't want different parents.

[Jill in Atlanta]

If she's just wanting to be someone else, to have the things and the life that someone else has, it might just take some repetitions of how everyone is different and everyone has different families and everyone has different toys and everyone has different clothes. With my 4yo (son) we explain that it would be boring if we were all alike. We like playing at a friend's house because he has different toys. We like our friends because they are different from us. It would be boring if we were all alike, had all the same families and all the same things.

Stress what makes her, and your family unique. Tell her what she has (curly hair, etc) that make her and your family special. You'll get tired of the repetition, but I think it's a stage you're going to have to suffer through. And then, she will want different parents!

[mom2finn]

Not having parented a four-year-old yet, I'm serving this suggestion with a giant heap of salt. But have you tried empathizing with her? "Wouldn't it be fun to have all that DP stuff? Which is your favorite? Why? What would you DO with all that DP stuff?" I think I would try to keep a list as in "Let's put this on your birthday/xmas/special holiday wish list." And make a big deal out of putting it on the list.

Because you mention her other less material desires, it does seem that the situation is at least partially social. For that, I have no ideas. I'll be watching the comments on this one...

[Sharon aka Mommie Mentor]

Here's a little goodie that may help. Everyone knows when a child sees something that they want at a friend’s house or in the store or on TV, they seem to become fixated on it to the point of distraction. Reasoning with them won't work—they can outlast us easily! Telling them to stop or to stop whining about this already, that won't stop them from wanting the item either. And sending them off to timeout until they’re willing to stop repeatedly asking for the item, that won't work either. So what can be done?

Well, the reason a child keeps asking is because they have no place to put their *desire* for the object. They’re too young to understand how to wait until their birthday or Christmas without a bit of help because they have no sense of real time.

Try this. Go get a small notebook and pencil and name it “My Wish Book” and keep it with you at all times. Then when your child says, “I want that”, or “I need a new princess dress” instead of saying no try saying, “do you want it enough for it to go in your wish book? Then ask, “Is it a birthday or a Christmas wish book type of present?” By doing this you’re giving the child’s *desire* some place to live and hopefully they can let it go, for now. If they ask again simply say, “would you like to look at your wish book so you know it's all there waiting for your big day, or would you like to draw your wish for the new princess dress today?” The child still feels as if the object will be theirs at some point and the parent doesn’t need to constantly say no.

Most likely when it's time for their birthday or Christmas they won't want the item anymore. It's worth a try.

[Jan]

A stock answer in my house to many of my kids' complaints is: "Because [so-and-so] has a different Mommy than you do." I don't know how to write it so it doesn't seem flip, but it isn't flip when I say it. Because, really, that's the reason. Because we all make different choices (and I'm willing to talk about those reasons if they ask, which occasionally they do, but mostly they don't).

My 4-year-old claims to "love" Dora, though I'm almost certain she has never even SEEN Dora, or had occasion to know who she is.

I guess I think of all the material things the way I think of food choices (in an ideal, I-don't-have-my-head-up-my-ass-about-food-issues, world) -- it's my job to provide my kids with [what I think are] healthy, age-appropriate choices of toys and it's their job to play with what they like.

[Rivka]

My daughter is almost four. She loves it when I tell her a story about how she accidentally gets switched with a friend and goes home with the friend's mother after school, and plays with all the friend's toys, and has a twin brother to hang out with. I include a narrative about the friend being at our house, and the special things about our house that the friend loves experiencing. We always end the story with the difference being discovered and the girls being traded back.

This story is very, very satisfying for my daughter, and might be for the questioner's daughter as well. It's a chance to try on someone else's life in fantasy, and also a reminder of the good things about one's own life.

[Maria]

We read a book on this theme recently (argh, can't remember the title!) where the main character and her friend decide to switch families and their parents actually let them – only for a weekend, but of course the kids don't even make it through the weekend.

My daughter liked it a lot, even though we haven't really had that issue too much yet. I'm sorry I can't remember the name or author or anything. I'll ask her and if she remembers I'll come back and post it!

[Charisse]

Ohh, Kate fessed up--I was going to say, did I somehow get Moxie's IM address and have a conversation while sleepwalking or something? Because I have a 4 1/2 year old daughter and she has The DP Friend who has a flipping CLOSET full of princess costumes and 20 of the dolls and 6 pairs of the official branded shoes and...oy. In our case, the friend also taunts Mouse for not having them (gah! DP Friend is only 5 fercrissakes!) and tells her to ask her mommy for them so she can be in friend's club. I don't think Mouse cares about them all that much otherwise, but she's with DP Friend in their fullday preschool, and all the non-DP big girls went off to Kindergarten, sooo...

So, um, useful advice? Not that I've solved this *at all*, but here's what I've tried:

-I've talked about money with Mouse and how we're lucky and we have enough money for food and our house and quite a few toys, but mommy doesn't think the princess stuff is worth all the money it costs.
-I've also gone and gotten cooler versions of the base princess stories from the library and bookstore (Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty at least come in much fancier and more interesting versions).
- I've talked about how when DP Friend is bragging about all her stuff you might want to find something else to do.
-I've found more interesting movies to watch.
-I've recast the stories of the godawful Disney versions, a la "well, actually the prince did notice Cinderella's pretty dress, but I think he came over because he liked the way she smiled, and then they had a really great time talking together while they were dancing--THAT's why people get married, not just because of a dress."

And if I get asked about that flipping golden princess sticker book that DP Friend has one more flipping time I'm going to bite something. I thought the Cars obsession early this year was annoying, but hey, $2 matchbox cars that are durable and still get played with and a cute, get-behindable story. No problem. Somebody tell me the princess thing ends, someday.

[hedra]

For the social stuff, we talk about a few things (which thankfully were backed up at school):

1) Opportunity cost. By around early 5, my kids understood the concept of 'if you spend your resources one place, you don't have them to spend another' - understanding that helped Mr G accept that some people spend their time and energy in one way, others in aother way, neither is bad, each prevents one from pursuing BOTH.

2) Different family functions and dynamics.
And:
3) we're all different, and that includes resources, but we're also very alike, including interests and passions. THESE are big helps for my kids at the 4-ish age. Focus on passions, interests, pleasures, those help cement the 'you and I are the same' issue that is often checklisted on material goods or outward obvious signs of status. Kids at 4 can only checklist what they can see or touch or comprehend. So they aren't as good at saying 'He and I are alike because we both care about animals' - they're better at 'we both have pet cats'. I try to shift the energy and attention to the underlying pinciple or action. We both love dancing. We both love music. We both enjoy painting. It's like the litany stuff (I've mentioned here and on blog), where the focus isn't on the things that might change if conditions changed - if her dad lost his job and she couldn't take ballet anymore, would this still be a separation between them? or can we say 'you both love to dance, you both think dancing is cool, you both enjoy feeling graceful, you both get swept away by music' - therefore, you are the same. The focus is on love, passion, action, emotion, response, interest. It is less on what happens before or after that point. For example, it isn't 'you are both good at art' but 'you both love to paint'.

4) It is utterly okay to want. Nothing like a little empathy here. It sounds like you think ballet lessons would be fun. You wish you could have ballet lessons, too, maybe? You wonder why the things you have are different than the things she has, because you need to be alike with your friend. You like feeling like you and she have a lot in common. Wanting and yearning and longing are powerful and USEFUL feelings, that in our culture are denied through too-quick gratification, or through denial-through-denigration. It is either 'oh, of course you need that, let me get it for you' or 'why in HECK would you want THAT?' as the defaults, culturally. I'm not surprised that people struggle with this, since it isn't in our standard toolkit - we don't have 'wow, you really want that. It is a deep ache and hum in your heart. You can picture yourself with it, right now. I can see how powerful that urge is for you.' - we can't leave it there, it is painful to do so - the legacy of Want (my mom thinks from the post-War abundance, depression->war->recovery and the recovery went a bit overboard, and continued to go overboard with the Boomers, and ... here we are, unsure what to do with unfulfilled desire.). A lot of the time, though, if I just really empathize with how cool it would be, how much it is wanted, they ease up and let it go a bit. The death-grip loosens.

5) It is also impoortant to understand why you want it. But at 4, that's not likely. We start talking about it at 5 or so, but before then, it does not compute.

For the long-term view, I go with empathize, keep the dialog open, and be prepared for them to develop more depth with their comparisons as they hit around 6-7 years old. They're still in early LOGIC mode at 4, so they're making checklists and comparing them one to the other. That's not a full social comprehension. When they get deeper comprehension, they start saying things like, 'suzie and I both love animals' instead of 'we both have dogs'. They also say, 'you know, I think I don't want to be friends with Andy anymore, because he teases other kids, and won't stop when I tell him that's mean. He's not as nice as I thought he was. I don't need to be friends with someone who doesn't think it is important to be nice to people.' The complexity comes, eventually. For now, it is just checklists, and a lot of desire.

Moxite rules apply, of course. I have four data points, which may not match up with your data points.

[hedra]

Oh, and the phrasing is a cue. 'I want that' is a bold statement of personal strength and desire. 'How come I don't have that' is a statement of feeling less-than by comparison. There's a wistfulness there that isn't in the I want or Gimme version. One is strong and distant from the problem, the other is close and sensitive to it. How I handle them differs, because the needs differ. For I want, we talk about saving up, putting it on a list, etc. For How Come, I talk empathetically (if I notice, sigh), and try to make connections that create common ground between self and other.

[Charisse]

@hedra, hmmm, I think I might be able to make good use of Point 3--thank you! Mouse is a biggish 4 so "I can see that you and DP Friend both really like beautiful things and like imagining stories about girls" could help a lot.

[Charisse]

...and sorry about the ranty tone earlier, the princess thing touches about 15 nerves for me, as you can all now see.

[Sarah V.]

A technique that I read about in the Ferber and Mazlish books (seriously good books - I recommend them to everyone) and that sounded worth trying is called the 'give your child in fantasy what you can't give her in reality' technique. Basically, it involves talking about how cool it would be if you *could* have all that stuff, being really over-the-top, and making it into a joke. "Wow - it would be so cool if you *could* have all those Disney princesses, wouldn't it? It would be great to have a *thousand* Disney princesses! A *million*! It would be great if we could have our whole *house* full of Disney princess stuff! How much do you think would fit?" That way, you're sympathising and empathising, but in a way that hopefully lightens up the mood and gets her laughing and thinking of more funny suggestions along with you.

[hedra]

Hey, princess stuff makes me go gleep, too. I tend to say that most royal-oriented things (unless specifically assigned to an identified princess) are QUEEN things. Pink shirt with crown on it? that's your Queen shirt. Purple cape? Queen cape. Crown? Queen hat. I get push-back on some items, but if boys play both prince and king, girls should (IMHO) be encouraged/reminded to play both princess and queen. I have the slight advantage (IMHO) of having had two boys before the girls, so I remember both the boys going through a royalty stage around 4 or so, so I'm surviving the princess thing.

I'd survive it better if Mr B didn't think that girls SHOULD be princess-mad, and so therefore he points out every possible princess thing to his sisters (especially Miss R, since Miss M has made it clear that she likes SHARKS and TRUCKS and MERMAIDS and is only tangentially interested in princesses). I'm happily letting Miss R decide what books she wants to get, she's looking at ones about animals, and here comes Mr B, going, "LOOK, LOOK, a *PRINCESS* book, see, is this what you want? It has PRINCESSES... pretty pretty princesses!" All in wheedling, you're supposed to want this tones, like he has to convince her to want it. :shudder: And he succeeds, usually. ARGH. Drives me batty. YES, she likes princess stuff, she doesn't have to be convinced to pay attention to only that, okay? STOP. GRRRR...

@Sarah V, we've also done the 'if I had a magic wand, I'd ...' game, which is similar. The trick is remembering to NOT say 'but I don't' at the end of it all. Just stop in the game, still having fun, without any reality check at the end. Hard, but that's the point - join them in the game, rather than smacking the game down to reality. I'm not always good at that part...

[peaceinyourcrib]

this is such and 'adult' issue to me! don't the majority of us struggle with this to some extent?
'love those shoes! love your handbag!'
hopefully i just have the reasoning/self-awareness/self-control to not compete and covet.

appreciate what Mommy Mentor and Jan said.

is this the time to use what i read in "Between Parent and Child"?

glad you guys are trailblazing the way, once again, for me.

[flea]

I found the evolution of Casper's Princess phase very interesting. At 3, she was in day care with a gaggle of girly girls, and discovered the DPs through them. But she also discovered the movie Spirit (about a horse) and was at least as obsessed with that. (It's an okay movie, if you don't stab yourself in the ear with an icepick due to the Bryan Adams soundtrack.) We rented many of the Disney princess movies this year, and she was actually kind of bored by most of them - preferred the Pixar ones and My Neighbor Totoro, which we own.

At 4, public school, two of her best friends were boys, a lot less interest in princesses, more interest in Spiderman and Power Rangers. She did express interest in Hannah Montana (her friend L, she told me, was 7, had a cell phone and wore lipstick and watched Hannah Montana; L was actually 5 and according to her mother none of the other 3 things were true either.)

At 5, she is not much interested in processes at all any more, although she has some friends who have fancy dress-ups and princess dolls, and she happily plays with those things at their houses. We have discovered Avatar the Last Airbender (which I kind of love!) and she is taking Tae Kwan Do, because her after school offers it and her best friend there takes it.

So for us, it's very conditioned by the social circumstances. Luckily Casper seems to have inherited the handy 'dork' gene (which I am counting on for adolescence, too) and has never gotten seriously obsessed with the social fad of the moment - she seems to follow her own drummer while being aware of what everyone is interested in.

[michelle]

I handle friend-stuff-envy with, "Yes, Suzy's princess dress is really cool. We can keep our eye out for some of this stuff." So far, at 4.5, my daughter usually will forget it with that. I think the friend-stuff-envy is more of a social thing than a true, lasting desire for the particular toys.

On the other hand, there is the "kid in the candy store" issue of going shopping with a 4 year old who, at least in our family, has a lot of trouble not ripping every brightly colored princess thing right off the shelf. For this, we've used the "if you really want this, put it on your Christmas List for Santa" strategy...which oddly seems to work pretty well.

The final issue is when your kid wants something you are philosophically opposed to, and her friends have it (some folks feel that way about Disney Princess stuff. I feel that way about toy guns. And I hate High School Musical stuff for 4 year olds- don't ask me why.). Here, I've had the best luck with the patient-but-firm bright line, "I know Tommy has toy guns and you were having fun with them at his house, but you are not getting any for our house because your Mommy doesn't like them." So far, our daughter accepts that different rules apply to different kids.

[Liz]

Yes, princess stuff is misogynistic and lame, but also pretty benign. My daughter is 5.5 and is completely done with the princesses, she says theyre 'for babies'. As someone mentioned earlier, of course she's now into American Girl stuff, but at least those are stories you can get behind. She is all about Kit, who is the doll from the great depression, so it is quite timely...

Whenever my child wants something that another kid has, I tell her: 1. how lucky she is that the other kid shares her toys and she gets to play with them at the other kid's house, 2. there are many, many children who dont have toys and that we are fortunate to live in a place where we do. I think it's reasonable to attempt to broaden their perspectives, because we ARE fortunate, not only to have toys but to have running water and food and to live where we have freedom. (i try to boil it down so it's not overly dramatic, but the message remains the same and is important). We also periodically collect some of her unused toys to donate to goodwill and involve her in the selection and praise her for being generous and kind to other children.

Point being, focus on what you have, not what you don't have.

[rudyinparis]

What's that dear? L has so many pretty things and you don't? Oh my gosh!! What's that over there?!! It's a giant bird swooping down to carry us away!! Oh, my mistake. Sorry.

So, I do use some distraction. Some noncommital noises can be handy. The acknowledging is good (Yes, it would be fun to have all those things, wouldn't it?) The But You Have Lots of Pretty Things never works, don't even bother with that one. I do think, as PPs have said, it's largely a developmental stage and not so much an expression of real desire for the objects.

Sidenote: I actually am anticipating welcoming American Doll, American Girl--what are they called?--anyway, embracing them because sadly, they at least allow a girl to remain a child instead of so many products that push them, revoltingly, to be sex objects.

[Slim]

You all seem to have the princess stuff handled, so I will just offer a tip that follows up on Flea's Spirit commentary. You must turn the subtitles on, because much of the dialog is in Horse, and the subtitles are a festival of adverbs: "Nickers questioningly," "Nickers happily," "Nickers sardonically," whatever.
Makes up for the soundtrack. Almost.

[Joy]

@Kate- Yes, unfortunately, yesterday my son, who's 8, said he wishes he had a different mom who was nicer and didn't yell as much.
So, now, I've reverted to being over- the- top, sweet as honey, June Cleveresque with him, and hoping to drive him to the point of nausea with my sweetness, to the point where he tells me to knock it off. :)

And my daughter, who's six, wants the entire page of AG bitty baby stuff, and as I tried to order her preferred baby yesterday, found them to be out of stock till January, so it'll be Target Knockoff for her!! Ain't serendipity grand?

[Lisa]

Hedra, could you and Moxie please come and raise my 5 year old son for me?? I'm sure you guys would work him out in a split second, while I am fumbling around with absolutley no clue as to what makes him tick. Your post is amazing today Hedra, as always. Your children are so very lucky to have you, to have you so tuned into who they really are. Now, theres my own personal 'I want' list - I want to have the ability to see into my child like Hedra does!

[hedra]

@Lisa, don't forget that I've got an 11-year old and a 7 year old ahead of the 4-year olds. It's a LOT easier to see in when you've got some hindsight on it.

I miss the boat a lot with the eldest, because I'm always behind the curve. He still does alright. I catch the next boat. I'm late, but not never. With the next, I can see the pattern as it is starting to set in, sometimes, other times I am knee-deep in it before I go 'wait, this seems familiar...' And since they're all different, I still have to figure them out each time, it is just easier when I a) know it isn't a permanent condition, and b) have seen something at least somewhat similar before (sometimes, anyway).

I also have a couple other non-typical advantages. I remember way into childhood, so I often have kind of a split-screen version of parenting - I can feel/recall/experience how I felt in the same situation, at the same time as I'm parenting it; and my mom is a retired minister who did a lot of therapeutic work before she was ordained... and we talked. So I have perspective on her parenting me, and that rolls down to me parenting them. Just assume that if you can't see in as far as you'd like, seeing in as much as you can gives your child the chance to see in further, perhaps. If they want to.

Last note - Everyone messes up. My goal is to have them be able to afford their therapy - not to have them dodge it entirely. I can't be perfect, and I won't kill myself trying. All I do is apply what I know, and then mess up and try again. Third time, it looks a lot better than first! You will be fine doing it your way. If you want the general resources, I have a bunch of books in my parenting bookshelf on my blog, that serve as the basis for my understanding for a lot of how to go... still, I don't understand one of my kids (Miss R) very well, and I still carry on with her. But she and I both know I'm guessing. She prefers it that way - she's a mystery, and wants to be allowed to remain one. :shrug: So I'm there on the kid who is like that, even with the experience to work from.

VERY last note (heh): Your plea to have us come raise your kid is EXACTLY the same thing I said to a friend of mine whose kids are already in college, before I even had kids. I watched her respond and shift, attend and allow freedom, reframe negative statements to positive (she's the source of my 'risk taker' assessment of Miss M - where I was just called accident prone, myself). I watched her do this amazing stuff, and watched her amazing kids grow into amazing adults and... yeah, I wanted her to do it for me, because she knew what she was doing. She was one of the first people from whom I heard the Moxie-familiar phrase - you'll be the best parent for your child. She told me I could do it, would do it, and it would be fine. Same is true for you. Some ages are easier, and some ways of thinking about things make them less stressful and fraught with pain (long view, say), and it helps if you know that something is developmental instead of personal, yadda yadda - but it still will work out. If you're worried and feeling stuck, take my mom's Minister advice, and read a sustaining book while your shape changes so you can go through the knothole into your next parenting state. (From her sermon 'on being a Bear stuck in a great Tightness' - Pooh, of course.) I tend to read parenting books. You can count how many times I've felt UTTERLY out of my depth by counting how many parenting books are in my bookshelf (and multiplying times three, since I only put the ones I like in there, but I've read a lot more than that). :)

[cheap air jordan shoes]

Merci de partager cette David.
Je me suis intéressé à la façon dont les médias sociaux a été inclus dans l'enseignement supérieur. Ainsi, les exemples que vous fournissez sont très encourageants. Enseigner les médias sociaux serait un plaisir!

[boubbire]

buy a moncler hat BQysmJXn [URL=http://www.dreamblog.net/monclershoes - moncler store[/URL - for gift xHVoNxwd http://www.dreamblog.net/monclershoes