Q&A: babies seeing ghosts?

And now for something *completely* different. Brenda writes:

"I have a question that used to bother me but not that much anymore. (At least not for now until my younger kid gets a little older.)

My question is: Do you believe that babies and toddlers can see entities of another realm (as in spirits, ghosts etc.) that we can't?

My son is now 3 years old. He used to look at, point to and make "eh eh" sounds at two particular corners of our bedroom. I have never seen anything there that may interest him - no interesting patterns or intriguing colours. Now he no longer does that but would sometimes walk over to those two areas to take a look and briskly walk away. (I'm getting goosebumps as I type this.) I know there's a school of thought that says that some kids have the ability to see things that we adults can't, and as they get older and start expressing themselves, they lose that ability. This is how the "other realm" keeps itself separate from ours. I have horrific thoughts sometimes and keep picturing scenes from the trailers of the movie "The Messengers". I'm now just hoping my 7-month-old doesn't start doing the same thing as well.

Do you or your readers have any thoughts that you would like to share on this? I know this is a rather sensitive and disturbing topic, but I'm curious about other parents' experiences and what they have done about it."

<Insert your own "I see dead people" joke here.>

You know, I don't think it matters if *I* believe they see anything.

So much truly strange, unexplainable stuff has happened to me in the last several years that I don't discount anything. But at the same time I completely understand how other people don't think strange stuff can happen. It's all your own personal experience. In my experience.

Is there a way for you to switch rooms in your living space so your kids don't have to be in that room as much? That might make you feel better about things.

Anyone want to debate whether or not kids can see stuff like that? Or talk about personal experiences with it?

Comments

[ada]

@hedra

You can remember being an infant!?

[Sivy]

I totally believe in ghosts, and have lived in haunted homes as well. But what came to mind first was something I heard on "All Things Considered" on NPR several years ago about babies being able to communicate with ghosts. A family living in an old house and their young son would talk to someone when he was put down for a nap. They could hear both sides of the converstation via the baby moniter, but if they went to his room they could only hear the boy talking. Sorta like being able to see a ghost in a photo...

I also believe that the spirit of my Siamese cat visits us. When my daughter was first born and I was having a massive post-partum break down, I vividly remember feeling her jump onto the bed and hearing her purr. On several occasions, I have gone to check on Poppet at night, and I can hear Sassy purring in the crib.

[elisa]

My family has always believed in ghosts. The stories usually revolve around a spirit saying good-bye after they die. I have had a dog visit me in a dream, several times, just to say hello and let me know she's fine. My great-Aunt was also visited by her late husband the night after he died. Nothing scary, really.

@julieta-Me, too! Eyes watering and covered in goosebumps.

[Jutta]

Ghost? Sure! Why not?
You know, Hollywood has made ghosts such a frightening thing and we all buy into it. We don't have to, you know. It isn't frightening in the least. Why would folks, whom we loved and adored all of a sudden turn into something frightening? Only because their bodies have ceased to exist?

Children are such smart creatures. If something were to frighten them, they would let us know (ex: Lady in the blue hat). But as you said, the little one is having fun while talking to whomever. Why worry about it?

It really is a matter of believing or not. If you believe it's possible, and I do, then it is. If you don't believe, then no amount of talking will convince you otherwise.

[hedra]

@ada. Just a few bits from that early. Nursing in the dark, that flying around the room backward thing (with my head bobbing, so I was probably around 4 weeks?), feeling intoxicated by my mom's laugh (which is remarkably like the feeling of hearing your baby laugh, it's a two-way street on that reaction). My mom also has a freaky-long memory (she remembers being in the womb, which she said looked a lot like when as a kid you closed your eyes too hard and it made starburst/snowflake-like images, only brighter, and it was VERY noisy - rumbles and gurgles and voice. When she remembered it, she was told she was WRONG that babies can't hear that, and only later was it confirmed that yes, what she remembered was probably accurate). I also remember bits from fussy stages, from being carried in a laundry basket, from staring at the rug under my nose (tummy time - and you know, rugs are FASCINATING surfaces), and increasing from around 6-9 months, around a year, etc. I have a big blank from the moment I saw my little brother (minutes after the homebirth) to when he was about 3 months old (I didn't think it was going to be a REAL baby!). A few other blank spots, but there's a good chain of experience in there. It has pluses and minuses - I can identify with the stage, but I can also OVER-identify with the stage (and forget that my kids may experience it very differently than I did).

None of my kids seem to have that degree of memory expect MAYBE Miss M, who says she remembers being swaddled, which was very early. But she's only 4, and could still lose those access to those memories.

It's funny, a bunch of the memories were unassigned memories (speaking of assigning meaning) - like, I always remembered nursing in the dark, but I didn't understand what it was until I had a child myself. It was just a 'whatever' kind of memory. NOW, it is meaningful to me. Then, it was just 'something that was'.

[shesaid]

Hedra, thank you for being some completely honest and open. My DH and DS can see spirits. It's just a fact... what can I say? Perhaps I will send him on over to talk about his experiences himself.
It has creeped me out a bit to watch babySaid stare off and wave to an empty spot and smile. (he doesn't even alway wave to people he knows) but we just refer to it a jorge his special friend... it makes it a bit easier on me, but DH says he knows babysaid sees even more than he does.

Very interesting conversation... you will either believe it, or KNOW it's total crap. Funny how faith works ;)

[Elizabeth]

@andisays - sorry, I'm not sure where to find other stories like those online. The Snopes entry refers to a book that may have similar sorts of stories in it.

@hedra - thanks for sharing so much of your experience. I especially enjoy reading about your early memories; whenever you've shared on here about your very early memories, I've found it fascinating and this time was no exception. I'm not quite sure how you read my original comment, but in case the "you decide for you, I'll decide for me" comment was directed at me, I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't deciding anything - for me or for you! And by no means was I doubting the veracity of your experiences. The main reason I linked to the Snopes article was because it contains two stories I'd read before that I thought were somewhat related to the current discussion.

[Alice in Wonderland]

I feel like this discussion isn't really a welcoming place for skeptics, but I'm going to give my 2 cents regardless: ghosts (and spirits, angels, etc) almost certainly (*) do not exist, therefore it is highly unlikely that babies can see them.

(*) "almost certainly" being used here in the same sense that it is almost certain that Santa Claus, the Greek Pantheon and the Flying Spaghetti Monster do not exist. It's impossible to prove their nonexistence for certain, but there is not one shred of independently-verifiable evidence that they do exist.

[Tootsie]

Has anyone been to Harper's Ferry, West Virginia? (the site of a very bloody Civil War abolishinist battle) We went there when I as six or seven. I remember going up some stone steps on a very large hill and there was a koi pond at the top. But the atmosphere - was spooky. It was full and heavy and crowded and unsettled. I was basicallly alone but I couldn't help feeling that there was so much around me that I couldn't see. I remember the sensation distinctly 27 years later.

About four or five years ago, I mentioned to my mom the sensation that I experienced then. She said that she had had a very similar experience, but much more intense than my experience. She had found the place very disturbing. She is extremely sensitive to these things. And a little pre-cognitive.

When I was pregnant with my daughter, I had two dreams about her. Her. Before I found out. I knew without question she was a she.

[hush]

@Karen (who posted the link to the cool "This American Life" broadcast) - Thank you so much for sharing that. I was so blown away to learn that carbon monoxide poisoning can cause folks to experience sensations to make them believe they're experiencing a haunting. Yet another reason to install carbon monoxide detectors! ;) By the way, the program's second vignette about the rabid raccoon attack also blew my mind! Bats can bite us in our sleep without us knowing?! The rabies vaccine costs several thousand dollars & needs to be administered in the arm within 72 hours of a bite? Holy crap - now that is truly scary!!

@hedra - Thank you for opening up my mind even more to the bizarre, wonderful possibilities. So good to have you "back"!

@Alice in Wonderland - Why do you feel "this discussion isn't a welcoming place for skeptics?" Several commenters (including me) said we are agnostic, others said flat out they don't believe, and others indicated there is some Perfectly Logical Explanation based in science. So it seems to me that all matter of "skeptic" perspectives have been respected during this interesting conversation... but please be more specific if you really do feel otherwise.

@Tootsie - I felt the same way about certain areas of New Orleans' French Quarter - as if the negative energy from ancient abuses still lingers in some corners there.

[anon]

hey hush I wonder if Alice might just have been thinking that at this point these stories are too personal to address from a skeptical POV...or this is too much of a social space to say the things one would say on a science-oriented blogspace.

Lots of people who consider themselves rationalists or skeptics still refrain from debunking when they are among friends. And here it sometimes feels like being among friends. So you don't hear a lot of pushback on most things like CAM discussions. In fact I think this discussion has way more skeptical comments than any I've seen here. and that's like, four comments.

[hush]

I hear you, anon, and now that you mention it, I can see it from that angle (of not wishing to offend/burst the bubbles of those who truly believe). Though having just re-read all of the comments again, I counted a few more than just four commenters who fall somewhere along the skeptic spectrum. ;)

As an aside, I confess I'm weary of vague comments about the "tone" of "this space" that lack ANY real specificity. (Like have you ever received vague feedback about something you are trying to improve? It's frustrating not to have any specific items to be able to address - it makes you imagine all of these scenarios as you try to mind-read.) So that's why I asked. I'm someone who often needs the obvious spelled out for her, and I benefit from concrete examples like the excellent ones you just gave.

[Alice in Wonderland]

@hush: Fair question! Mostly I was reacting to the feeling I had (I was *really* anxious about posting that there's no such thing as ghosts, and I seriously considered just staying quiet) as well as the fact that the handful of "there's no such thing as ghosts" posters before me posted anonymously. Maybe I shouldn't have said "this discussion isn't a welcoming place for skeptics" but rather "I'm really nervous about how others will react to my skeptical comment."

anon @12:31 largely hit it on the head, too; this is a social space, and going against the flow in this type of discussion feels, hm, socially awkward. A bit taboo.

When everyone's relating personal experiences that they interpret as being supernatural, it seems arrogant to come in here and say "I think your interpretation of your own experience is mistaken!" But that's what I'm doing, effectively, by saying that there's no such thing as ghosts. Human perception is easily tricked; this is well known. We see patterns where none exist, we privilege coincidences over non-coincidences in our memories, we react to mysteries by coming up with explanations whether we have enough evidence for a good explanation or not!

[paola]

@Alice in Wonderland.

I guess it depends on how you address the issue. I know I would have liked to have seen some more of what you mentioned, but done the right way, respecting other people's opinions and views.

[hedra]

@Alice in Wonderland, it's more your perspective that I was addressing than Elizabeth's. I'm enough of a skeptic that I am not offended if someone else thinks 'observation bias' when I'm thinking 'Mr G is just plain *different*' - for example, I'm not a huge personal fan of the Indigo Child literature, because 99.9% of the classification of Indigo is = highly gifted, from what I can tell. But if someone says their child is an Indigo, I translate for myself to 'gifted' (as in IQ/multiple intelligences). Am I right? No idea. It's just my translation. And I don't look down on people who interpret it differently - it is just the basket that is meaningful for them.

My mom and I discuss a lot of this stuff - she is a retired minister, and is one of the more skeptical people I know. She also registers that for a lot of this, where human living is concerned, it doesn't matter one BIT whether it is explainable by scientific reasoning. What matters is how it fits into the person's life and their experience, how it affects their choices, whether it drives them toward a greater expression of their best self, etc.

Yes, some of the reasoning/meaning side affects that, but for a great deal of it, it comes down to more 'life is improved by feeling that there is magic here' or 'life is not improved by feeling that there is magic here' - and people will differ on which side of that line is right for them, both individually and across their lifespan. There's no value in even analyzing whether that was a low-oxygenation moment, a surge of electrical response in the brain, side effect of fermentation of whatever you ate in the last three days, etc. It's only when it becomes extreme that it needs to be assessed for further specifics (and there's plenty of gray area around the extreme boundaries as well).

I have many friends who are very firmly on the side of 'there's plenty of magic in the world without inventing more' (heh), and many who are on the side of 'there's more that is magical than that which we already can measure with current methods'. Those both can be integrated, IMHO - because a) we can't measure everything yet, and b) if we're limiting joy to only that which can be measured, we're limiting a lot.

I'm open to someone saying they see spirits everywhere. I'm open to someone saying that they don't think these things are real at all, and that there is some other explanation for it. I've had low oxygenation moments (asthma) and have had moments that were clearly related to the very minor synesthesia I have (I have to be exhausted for it to express), and I've had visual hallucinations from something that was clearly related to a misfire in my brain chemistry (fortunately only once on that, that I'm aware of).

I prefer to assume that we can't measure everything that is happening, and that there are explanations for everything that happens in our experience, AND that we cannot assume we know what those explanations will be. It is a place that allows me to enjoy hearing about everyone else's experiences. I don't have any discomfort with Alice, or Elizabeth, or any of the thousands of readers who likely went 'um, yeah, okay' on my experience. That's also why I am careful to not hold my own interpretation too firmly - there have been moments that I initially interpreted one way, that I later realized were probably something else entirely (as research has caught up one more stage with brain function or perception, etc.). I assume that I cannot know if my own interpretation is right. That's the core of my skepticism. That's also why I try to be clear that I don't require others to interpret MY experiences the same way I do. Yeah, it would be super comfy if the whole world believed everything I do, but it would also be boring and it would cripple movement and exploration of the possibilities. I like the variety. And I don't mind if that means sometimes I have to take a breath and step back from myself, too. (I hear Alice on the discomfort of saying 'these things don't exist' when someone else has listed a personal experience of it - And I can tell you that it is also uncomfortable to have someone say, 'oh. Shit. Now I have to rethink my understanding of what is and is not real' as someone did after Mr G had told me about another pregnancy and loss. Heck, epeepunk and I are not quite aligned on this - both agnostic, but he interprets some of it differently than I do, or declines to interpret it at all, and leaves it as 'just experience, meaning unknown and unknowable' - which is actually a pretty comfortable place to stand when addressing a space that is otherwise very different from your usual point of view.)

Not sure if that clarifies enough for those who were uncomfortable - Elizabeth? Alice?

[D]

My daughter will be two next month, and she sees spirits as well. She's been seeing them for a while. Sometimes she gets scared, cries and covers her eyes, and sometimes she laughs and waves by placing her hand over her eye and waves with her fingers, which is something I've never taught her. This is always in the direction of the lights (usually at the ceiling fans). The strangest thing was that a few months ago, she looked as if she saw something, and I heard a noise in the direction of where she was looking (twice in two different places in the house)...the house was completely quiet, so of course that freaked me out. Now I noticed that I hear little "ching" noises in the glass in the ceiling fans every now and then, and the fan isn't on. She saw something in my car that made her scared as well in the passenger seat. Tonight, I was changing her, and we were both laughing, and then all of a sudden she looked behind me, and her eyes got big and she made a scared expression (like she saw a ghost) then she started crying and covered her eyes. This is really scary to me!! I'm just glad to know that other parents have experienced this with thier children.

[Stassja]

I definitely believe kids can see things. As we get older and depending on our upbringing most of us develop mental walls and guards against these things. Probably mostly because the idea scares us and we don't want to see things. (Certainly true of me!) Quite a few times I've walked into his room with the distinct, STRONG feeling that when I opened the door someone/thing would be standing there. DS has a slightly different cry those times, the way he cries at me if I were to stand across the room and not take him out of his crib.

If it's not scaring your child try not to worry too much right now. I know it's kinda creepy since you can't see it, but you never know, it could be a relative that's passed on just there to check out the new addition to the family.

If it really bothers you try this, doesn't matter if you're in the room or with your child. Tell it to leave, and that it cannot stay anymore. Close your eyes and imagine your inner light growing, expanding from yourself. Imagine using that box of light to push it out of the house, and make your box of light expand to envelop the entire house (or if you're really freaked, the yard too). Another way if you don't think the thing is in the house at the time is to just imagine that wall of light going all around the outside of the house, visualizing it over all the windows and everything. In the creepy room you can send it around 3-4 times (what I do in my sons room when he's scared, to be safe).

Yes, I'll likely get the crazy hippy lady label for this, but honestly it works for me, and my very best friend who has seen (and even talked to, though she prefers not to dwell on it) numerous spirits. Being an adult you can more easily tone yourself down so you're not thinking of them often or wanting to see them. (Even if you don't WANT to see anything, expecting it everywhere seems to attract them.) But your child cannot yet tone down their pure little inner light to stop from shining like a beacon for them. So it's up to you!

[Angy]

I had an odd dream once similar to some of the things here.

I had dreamed when i was 7 years old that i was looking at myself as a baby (don't know what age, but i wasn't far along i couldn't sit up at all) all i remember from the dream was that i was watching over myself for something. it seemed real and i used to think maybe somehow i was watching back in time? i also had another dream later where i was watching my sister, but i woke up before that dream was finished and now it seems like she gets the bad things in life while im getting the good. is it fair to think that if what i dreamed was actually real that maybe i was our own guardian angel somehow? or i was supposed to be watching to make sure nothing "karmic" (i guess that's the only way i can think of to explain the feeling) happened to us?

also some adults can see things i still have that happen to me.
just tonight i was driving and i swear i saw someone run behind my car so i stopped and looked around (the area i was in was open so i was sure to to see someone) but i saw no one! trick of my eye maybe? im not sure im leaving that one open for debate later. but i see cats everywhere when there are none. i seem to attract animals since i was 14. they always seem to be looking at me like they are trying to tell me something. i always go with my gut feeling and things work out. and when i warn someone that they should wait to do something when i have a bad gut feeling and they do it anyways they always get hurt.

does anyone have anything they like to say? i mean im not the only one am i?

[Denise]

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http://www.victorzammit.com

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[Barking dog sounds]

Oh! Come on! Is this true? Do babies got that capacity? Someone told me about that a year ago but I wasn't convinced with her. I just told her that maybe its one of her superstitious beliefs from her grandmother ideas as well. As far as I know babies are so attracted with dark colors maybe he sees something attractive on that time.

[modern wine rack]

I don't believe in this, Its just an hallucinations. Babies were so attracted on bright colors that's why this happens. My first cousin got baby but haven't experience the same thing. I bet this is due to some hanging object that makes the babies scared and make them scream and suddenly cry out loud. It just my opinion, thanks for sharing some thoughts.

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