Changing tone

To Suki and anon and anyone else who hasn't commented but feels a changing tone:

I'm sorry you feel sad and/or marginalized.

I've felt the same changing tone, too. In the beginning, I think people were just so happy to be at a site where they weren't being kicked in the gut for making little decisions that seemed huge at the time but are so minimal (the angst over pacifiers, for instance) that everyone was so nice to each other.

But over the past few years, I think Ask Moxie has gotten a reputation for being a place where anything goes. And, to some degree it is, in that I really do think people are trying to do the best thing for their own kids and it seems all the commenters do, too.

So when I step in, and make what sound like mean posts, or like everyone has to agree with what I say, I do it on two very specific occasions:

1) Advocating spanking and physical abuse as a valid disciplinary method. I do believe it's wrong, and my stance on that is not going to change. I do not look down on any person who spanks. But spanking itself as a valid choice I do not agree with, and I'd hope that people who use spanking specifically could look at other methods. This is never going to be a site that OKs violence against kids.

2) Comments that denigrate other people. And that's what the comment that started this yesterday did. The commenter basically said that moms who fed formula had no right to complain because they should have breastfed. A few months ago there was another comment that came out blazing against a huge segment of the moms who read this blog, and I responded the same way.

The very reason I started this site was so that people wouldn't be denigrated for making the decisions they do. And yet when I patrol the comments it's too mean.

I see a huge difference between being a safe space to confess weaknesses or talk through a process, and being a safe place to judge other people. Remember that this site gets around 40,000 hits a week. That's a lot of people coming to read and comment. Maybe it's just suffering the same fate as the rest of the internet--more posts = judgment.

I really wish we could get back to the days when no one dared to say anything mean about someone else. They expressed opinions, but not in an inflammatory or offensive way.

What's the solution? Should I just let commenters duke it out among themselves? Would that make things feel comfortable like they used to? I'm not sure it would. I feel like I need to step in when someone says something hurtful, or else I'm complicit in the hurt.

Thoughts?

Comments

[Suki]

Moxie, you brought tears to my eyes, as you have done so many times before. I really, really, appreciate your response to my and others' concerns that the tone of this place has changed. I felt over recent months that people were being shat on when it wasn't deserved (remember the poster's concern over serving alcohol at a baby shower anyone?) and the site was leaving me feeling icky instead of warm and supported like it used to. I just really appreciate your candor and the respect that you have shown by taking the time to respond so thoughtfully to that concern. Thank you.

[anonforthisone]

Some of this will probably come out sounding a bit pompous, but I can't figure out how else to say it:

One of the things that attracted me to this site was that most, if not all, of the comments were and are well written, intelligent, thought out (or as thought out as a sleep deprived mama can manage anyway), and even have good spelling. That last part especially sounds trivial, but in a world of yahoo! comment and advice boards filled with nonsense text message-like abbreviations and suggestions to just put whiskey on their teeth, Moxie is refreshingly smart. (I shit you not, I visited one health Q & A site that included a question asking how far into the uterus a man's penis goes during intercourse.... it had about 50 "I don't know, that's a good question" answers.) I thought at first that maybe someone was patrolling to just keep the "smart" comments up. That sounds terrible, but there you go. The longer I hung around the more I realized that it was actually just a community of people who are in fact intelligent, and non-judgmental enough that even though I won't always agree, I would never feel uncomfortable saying so.

There are some other "mommy blog" sites that I can occasionally enjoy but are so full of themselves and there perfect parentness that it just makes me wanna yell, and I never feel that here.

I've been hanging out here for a while, and I have not seen a change in tone. I do always love the q & a posts, because that really opens up a discussion with different ideas and suggestions for parenting, all of which I love to hear (even, again, if I don't agree) and always wish for more.

[anonforthisone]

Some of this will probably come out sounding a bit pompous, but I can't figure out how else to say it:

One of the things that attracted me to this site was that most, if not all, of the comments were and are well written, intelligent, thought out (or as thought out as a sleep deprived mama can manage anyway), and even have good spelling. That last part especially sounds trivial, but in a world of yahoo! comment and advice boards filled with nonsense text message-like abbreviations and suggestions to just put whiskey on their teeth, Moxie is refreshingly smart. (I shit you not, I visited one health Q & A site that included a question asking how far into the uterus a man's penis goes during intercourse.... it had about 50 "I don't know, that's a good question" answers.) I thought at first that maybe someone was patrolling to just keep the "smart" comments up. That sounds terrible, but there you go. The longer I hung around the more I realized that it was actually just a community of people who are in fact intelligent, and non-judgmental enough that even though I won't always agree, I would never feel uncomfortable saying so.

There are some other "mommy blog" sites that I can occasionally enjoy but are so full of themselves and there perfect parentness that it just makes me wanna yell, and I never feel that here.

I've been hanging out here for a while, and I have not seen a change in tone. I do always love the q & a posts, because that really opens up a discussion with different ideas and suggestions for parenting, all of which I love to hear (even, again, if I don't agree) and always wish for more.

[Barb @ getupandplay]

I think it is entirely appropriate for you to encourage (and even patrol) common courtesy. There is no excuse for anyone to ever be mean spirited, even on the internet, even when emotions are involved, even when you strongly disagree. There is nothing to be gained by being hurtful, demeaning or judgmental!! Thanks for stepping in, Moxie!

[Kate]

Moxie, I personally felt that your response to the commenter in the "food safety" post was warranted because you specifically asked people *not* to turn the info into a nasty anti-formula position.

As far as trying to keep so many readers and commenters playing nice in spite of different opinions and different methods, I think you (and the commenters!) do a really great job. The blogs where every nods and smiles and agrees on everything? Boring. And not really places to learn from.

[Lizzie]

Please, please continue to step in when necessary. I breathed a sigh of relief when I saw your response in yesterday's comments. Had you not stepped in, this would not have felt like a safe space at all.

Shutting down dissent and refereeing the tone of the conversation are two different things. In my mind, you were definitely doing the latter.

[anon]

I don't doubt that this site has helped countless women. The info on sleep regressions, developmental spurts, and PPD prevention was invaluable to me when my kid was first born. However, the biggest shift that I have seen is definitely to "anything goes," as you put it. I feel like you used to inject more of your personal parenting philosophy into things, and I liked that. Some of it I hadn't even thought of yet, and it was refreshing, like "open your eyes, you don't have to follow the Spock manual your mother did." But you definitely leaned more toward AP parenting and listening to the needs of your child. If a poster had written in talking about wanting to CIO her 4 month old at the inception of this site, I feel like you would have sympathized, then helped her brainstorm ways not to do it. Then it became "Well, it works for some kids." Then it became a gallery of commenters talking about how they Ferberized, and their kids are fine. I could get that at Babycenter. I don't point friends here anymore due to the undermining nature of some of the comments. Suddenly listening to the needs of your child turns into "let them cry til they are purple, they must need that if you, the parent, think so." No, some things are about parents' needs and parents not knowing they have other options.

And let's say you get a breastfeeding issue post, you get a gallery of people chiming in about how it's OK to quit, which totally invalidates the mother for wanting to fix her problem. I'd love to see more moderation on stuff like that, i.e. "Answer so and so's question, otherwise leave it alone." There is clearly so much guilt and regret among people who couldn't or did not choose to breastfeed, and it seems like it's now hard to discuss breastfeeding without worrying about offending the formula feeders. I do not give a crap about how someone feeds her kid, but I am a big fan of accurate, helpful information being shared, rather than people's individual baggage and readiness to dismiss a mother who wants to work through something as being "too hard on herself."

I think it's OK to have more obvious personal opinions and let them guide your discussions, basically. "Whatever works for you, as long as you aren't hitting the kid" doesn't ring true for me. I'd like to see a little more of an underlying philosophy, unless that really is where you netted out. Not dogma, but alternatives to the typical mainstream parenting methods that often don't seem to solve the problem or let the people using them feel particularly at ease, judging from all the reactivity if alternatives get suggested. And whatever, really, this is your site, and I'll click through if a post interests me, but it's getting rarer and rarer, and I have a really tough time wading into the comments. I do wish you tons and tons of success, of course. A larger audience is definitely a challenge.

[nora]

I think the best sites/blogs are those where there is a shared notion of what is okay and what isn't. I think back to the glory days of televisionwithoutpity.com where they had a clear list of rules. People may have disagreed with some of the rules, they were clear, and if they violated the rules they got moderated.

As the Moxie of AskMoxie, you certainly are entitled to setting guidelines as you did in the "Food Safety" post. When the guidelines you set were violated, you moderated. And, other readers did some moderating too. But you doing moderation is, I think, the most important thing because otherwise comment sections could become all-out flame wars, which just doesn't jive with what I sense you want the site to be.

It's the equivalent of the "under my roof you follow my rules" cliche. It's your site, and you should initiate smackdown mode when people
don't follow guidelines you've set.

[tina]

You absolutely should feel free to referee. It can start to be a lot of work, though. I used to moderate a large discussion board and I really agree with this recent piece:

http://www.kottke.org/08/12/does-the-broken-windows-theory-hold-online

[mom2.0]

This is your blog. People are welcome to get their own blogs if they do not want to communicate on your terms of appropriateness. I think it is up to you to express limits and to enforce consequences for inappropriate posts.

[Tami]

Man, I really debated whether or not to post a comment on this, but because I have such a great deal of respect for you (Moxie) and this site I'll risk it.

Basically, while I respect your beliefs on spanking, and I understand that this is your site and you can establish any rules/guidelines you see fit, I think it is a bad decision to shut down any respectful discussion regarding the merits of spanking. Just like formula use, cry-it-out and other more "controversial" parenting decisions, allowing an open and respectful discussion on all issues only enriches the wonderful forum you have fostered in your comments. I realize you have to draw a line somewhere, I just disagree that spanking is that line.* I think people can disagree, even on controversial issues, and still be respectful. However, I completely agree that you should step in and moderate disrespectful (or worse) comments.

*I also wanted to note that I'm not interested in debating the merits of spanking in this particular comment thread. 1) I think that it's beside the point of this post, and 2) I don't feel the need to convince someone one way or the other, because I honestly don't think spanking makes or breaks anyone's parenting.

[Moxie]

Wait--you guys thought this was an AP site?

The reason I started saying that fuss-it-out worked for some kids was that I saw very clearly that it was what my second kid needed. All of a sudden that came into clear focus. No way to preach any "no crying ever" message when a kid who could only fall asleep by crying was in my house.

[anon]

I am the aforementioned anon, who obviously lied when I said I wouldn't be coming back. I am not a regular commenter (not sure if I ever have), or I'd "come out," but I am a regular reader.

I just wanted to clarify that I am not blaming Moxie's comment in the formula post (or lack of comments to previous snarky posts) for the change in tone. I think it's partly a product of having more readers, and partly of having different type posts of late. There seem to be fewer responding-to-deperate-mom posts and more what's-up-in-general posts. Having only been around here for about a year and a half, I don't know if that's a natural cycle or what.

Anyway, I maintain that this site has been a blessing in my life, due to Moxie as well as her dear readers, but just may no longer apply. And that is totally OK. As mom2.0 said so well, if I don't like it, I can get my own blog. I just commented to support Suki's post, because I agreed and because that's what people around here do.

[FirstTimeCommenter]

I'm really glad you posted this topic, Moxie. I'm a first time commenter, but I've been reading for almost two years and have read through the archives back to about the one year anniversary of the site. I now have a 10 month old daughter and find much of the advice I've gathered here to be invaluable. I realize that I am probably out of line adding to this conversation, given that I have contributed zero content here, but perhaps I speak for some of my fellow lurkers.

I've been mulling over an email to you for a few weeks now because I, too, have noticed a change and feel as though this site is at a crossroads.

First off, I did think your response to badmom was appropriate and well timed. I attribute more of the "chastising/keeping in line" type comments to my fellow readers than to you, yourself. I think this might have come about in recent months because you've been "around" less often yourself (posting less frequently and juggling many responsibilities), and I have the sense that long time readers/frequent commenters have stepped into the void a bit. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it can lead to discussions in which there's less room for dissent.

I've noticed that you've posted an increasing number of topics that are outside the more universal aspects of parenting (sleep/infant feeding/developmental milestones/etc.). I have to believe this is partially because your boys are growing up and the umpteenth billion question about a 10 month old who WON'T EVER SLEEP (sorry-- got off track...) is not all that relevant or interesting for you. Even though I almost always agree politically with you and most of the posters-- and I am a city-dwelling, advanced degree-holding, 30-something, married WOHM-- I do think that the less welcoming posts for me tend to be the posts that are less universal in focus (for example, posts about "cheap plastic crap"). I feel that these posts seem to bring less reasoned responses.

Perhaps this is a good time for you to assess whether you want to revise the "Who is Moxie?" section in your sidebar. Does it make sense to define the community more explicitly? For instance, I appreciate your statement in today's post that you won't ever condone spanking because it sets a clear guideline about a value you expect this community to uphold. If someone violently disagrees with your position (no pun intended), he or she can stay away or keep silent on the point.

Would a manifesto of sorts be exclusionary? Yes, absolutely. For many of the reasons anonforthisone (6:22) described, I don't think that's a horrible price to pay if you want to continue to discuss topics that are outside the more universal topics I described above. For instance, I feel as though every time you post anything that remotely seems like a middle-class/upper-class concern, you have to include a paragraph of disclaimer and commenters still jump all over each other pointing out how privileged we are to even face the issue. Perhaps a manifesto could address this point up front.

Thanks to you and your frequent comments for all of your hard work building and maintaining this community!

[CG]

I didn't think this was an AP site, which is why I feel comfortable here. I posted something to this effect way at the end of the baby-wearing thread, but I'll say it again. Some aspects of the way my husband and I parent our kid fit in well with AP, and some don't (being unable to breastfeed was a big one). That's just how things have worked out.

I've found support here for being pragmatic and clever and finding strategies that help individual families with different needs (and which are composed of people with different personalities). The ultimate goal for most people here seems to be having a secure, happy, well-loved child and parents who on balance enjoy their children. That's my goal, anyway, and that's why I come here.

I read some mommy blogs for their entertainment value, but I never read the comments. So far, on AskMoxie, the comments are almost as valuable as the original post. The people who post here are so smart and (generally) kind that I would like to meet them in real life. Can't say that for most of the internet. That said, I agree with the poster who likes it when you (Moxie) bring in more of your own opinion. It's usually spot-on.

Right now all is pretty quiet on the Western Front (although I do hear some mumbling from the crib). I fully intend to consult Moxie and the wise moms (and the occasional dad) of AskMoxie when the baby poop hits the fan again, because it definitely will.

[CG]

I thought I posted this but maybe not--apologies for duplicates.

I don't think this is an AP site, which is why I feel comfortable here. I was all for AP before I had an actual baby, and lo and behold, some of it didn't end up fitting us or our actual child. Some of it did.

Moxie and the posters on this site seem to share the goal of secure, happy, well-loved children and parents who on balance enjoy their children. How you get there could look very different in different families. That's why the wealth of experience here is so helpful.

I read a couple of mommy blogs for their entertainment value, but I never read the comments. Here, the comments are almost as valuable as Moxie's reply. Most are empathetic and constructive, apparently written by people who I would like to meet in real life (and I'd like to add that I particularly enjoy the international perspective--sometimes helps us Americans calm down a little). That said, I really like hearing what you (Moxie) have to say, because it is well-reasoned and spot-on (and in itself helps set the tone for the ensuing conversation).

I come here for help when things are rough, and when they're not I enjoy posting my experiences to hopefully help others through a rough patch. It does feel like a community, and I hope that doesn't change.

[joanna]

I have only ever found this site to be an oasis (I mean that, truly) of support, humor, information and reality-checks. But I am a newcomer, relatively, as I have only been visiting this site for a year and a half.

Perhaps I am part of the problem with the changing tone, however, because I tell all my friends about this site as soon as they have their first babies. I'm sure the increase in participants has changed the tone, and I'm sure something has been lost- though also gained? I take comfort in the sheer number of responses, the number of people struggling with the same things I am. (My issue, for example, is sleep, and as all the moms I know personally now have good sleepers while I am still struggling, this site is my recourse.)

I think, Moxie, that you should respond to posts whose tone you don't like. It's the tone you set originally that makes this site what it is, and it's your personal opinions that drew us here in the first place.

Regarding badmom's post, for what it's worth I thought the kind of situations you and others mentioned- where someone can't physically nurse, or where nursing leads to PPD - are precisely the "emergency" (not sure that's the word badmom used, sorry if I misquote) situations badmom was talking about and so I didn't find it as caustic or aggressive as you did. But nursing came easily for me, so I am probably insensitive on this issue.

I can imagine how someone might feel, though- I have finally decided to try the Ferber method on my 18 month old after trying everything- co-sleeping, mattress on the floor, husband took over nights entirely, researched medical reasons, etc. etc.- and we are still in a totally unlivable and unsustainable place that is hurting both of us physically and leaves me struggling with depression. I am heartbroken and doing this only as a last resort, to survive. And so I can imagine how someone who really tried to breastfeed but couldn't would feel. I believe deeply that letting my baby cry in her crib is not the best way to go (far from it) and I don't need anyone to tell me that. What I need is for people to be very very gentle with me. If I were to write in that I was about to do Ferber and someone wrote something that sounded (to my sensitive ear) like I am taking the easy way out and will have only myself to blame if my child becomes withdrawn, loses trust, throws tantrums, etc., I would be crushed.

So, yes, keep it a safe space.

[professor mama]

One, I haven't noticed a change in tone. I have noticed a couple of zingers that have appeared from posters, and Moxie has swooped in to ensure that the site remains supportive of her philosophy. It is her site after all, and she has the right and responsibility to soften the extreme views that might be hurtful to others. Moxie is savvy in her ability to tease out the nuances of an issue, and if she senses that someone is ignoring the range of perspectives and doing so in an insulting way, then she should indeed try to get folks to play nice.

Two, someone said that it isn't worth reading a bunch of "I agree" comments. However, I come to this site for information from (mostly) women who are like-minded, who care about what I care about, who have experiences that I don't have, and who have creative solutions to my problems. E.g., all the posters have agreed that there are problems with formula production in the US and China. Okay, not surprising. But I've learned so much about other environmental concerns, have spent my day following links, and have generally raised my awareness and have recommitted myself to organic whole foods. All in a short couple of hours. Where else can I get *THAT* on the internets?

Third, I think Moxie has been clear about what she considers "safe"** and what isn't -- about what she'll protect, and about what she'll allow. I know that many anon posters have shared some things here that they never would IRL; in particular, I'm haunted by the post of the woman who wrote that she was about to give birth but would give up her baby if she could (and I think about her a lot). Everyone responded to that poster with kindness, compassion, and serious concern -- not judgment, horror, or denigration. My point is that it isn't "anything goes" here at Moxie. People are careful, discerning, ethical, and quick-witted. So if something does go awry, then Moxie has every right to step in.

**I spend my academic life critiquing constructs such as "safe space" and "community" because I'm not convinced that those constructs exist in any pure form -- thus I put "scare quotes" around them. Sorry. I can't help myself.

[CG]

Heh. Now you can see how I rewrote what I originally wrote. Good night...

[Julie B]

Moxie - Apologies in advance as I only have a few minutes to respond.

I do believe that you have to step in a let readers/contributers know when their input violates the tone of this site...which I believe to be a safe place to ask questions and get advice without being judged.

This is the only parenting site that I log into every day and the knowledge, support, advice and assurance I receive from your posts and readers is priceless.

Those that want to judge should take their comments elsewhere, because I will not continue to read if this becomes another place that makes me (and others?) feel bad about the choices they are making. We get that from so many places...I never expected it to be an issue here.

[Phil]

Although I've never commented here before, this site has been a real lifeline for me a several times--and the long and thoughtful comment threads are a big part of why. Honestly, from the high quality of most of the discussion here, I would have thought you did a lot more active moderation.

The best stuff on comment moderation I've seen is from Teresa Nielsen Hayden who co-runs Making Light, and also is the "community manager" for BoingBoing.

See for example, her list of basic principles for comment moderation:
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006036.html

You do a lot of this already.

The short version: at a certain point, you have to moderate in order to keep the conversation healthy and productive. You don't need a manifesto. You've got your own sense, a great community, and a bunch of solid regulars that know the culture here and help explain it to others. You just need to weed out whatever you find offensive or upsetting. Politely explaining your rules is well within your rights as host. So is deleting comments, if that seems called for.

[claireanne]

I'd like a shift back to Q&A from readers, rather than generalized "how's it going" posts. If that's the shift that people are talking about, then I've noticed it too.

BTW, I never thought this was an AP site -- or any other dogmatic style. Moxie your advice to readers has always been eclectic and poetic.

[marci]

i've only been a reader for 8ish months, but read the archives extensively.

yes, i think there are some tonal changes - you're busier and more distracted and maybe were focusing extra energy here to avoid some relationship crap before. and the fact your kiddos are growing out of the baby phase and into older child dilemmas also means a shift, to school-age problems. deity willing, in 10 or so years we'll be able to read about how to think through setting rules for dating or study hints.

what i'm saying is, life changes. your blog reflects your life, and if it shifts some, that's ok. the main things i get here are the 'you are your child's best parent' thought, some concrete tidbits to try, and a glimpse of the skills i can emulate that you and some of your commenters have to really think through what i'm trying to produce in my child.

thanks for being here, moxie & moxites.

[pocha]

Moxie,
As Mom2.0 put it plainly: this is your blog. If readers find that your netiquette is somehow inappropriate, then there are alternative mom-blogs aplenty (though, I'll admit, yours reigns supreme).

I also want to agree with someone above: I sometimes miss the reader Q & A type posts, which seem to appear with less frequency than before. I swear those got me through some tough times in the past.

All in all, a great site with a wonderful online vibe, if you ask me.

[bandwidow]

Another lurker here, to weigh in.

I belong to several online communities, between BabyCenter, Hyperemesis Foundation, BabyCenter Canada, as well as my own blog/friends blogs, etc. I am a breast feeding laptop mom who believes in whatever the heck works for my baby works for me. One day we're Ferber, five minutes later I'm the AP mom wearing my peace sign *bling* and the next I probably look like a form of the devil, I'm pretty sure anyway.

I'm noticing in the BabyCenter community where it seems as though ANYTHING goes in certain areas (aka, the notorious birth club) women are ATTACKING each other. Heaven for bid you bring up topics like bumbo chairs in the bathtub, crying it out, starting solids at x-month/day/hour, formula versus breast versus whatever... there are trolls out there who make it their past time to shoot down other women.

It's horrific. I work as a Registered Nurse when I'm not a momma and it's one of the reasons I will most likely leave the profession. Bullying ANYWHERE is horrible. I don't care if you're in the playground, coffee shop, sandbox, etc. It's abusive and should not be tolerated.

That being said, this is the internet and you can't block people from coming to your site and leaving a message. You can moderate out spam and outward attacks, but especially when it's hidden typed abuse OR someone just simply finds it a personal attack it can be really hard.

My "motherly advice" to readers, commenters, etc would probably be that it's entirely unfortunate if you find some internet comment to personally offend you. But you're perfectly welcome to click off of the site and continue on until you find a place where you're safe and comfortable. That being said, some people enjoy living in conflict and raising their view points and unfortunately it's going to make other people squirm.

I come here to read about whats new and exciting in child rearing. It's been eight years since I've had a baby and it's nice and refreshing to read what everyone else is trying. It's benefited my baby and it's kept me entertained while I'm cluster feeding and trying to escape the monotony of being the stay at home mom. My knowledge looks more like a patchwork quilt than it does a typed out textbook, which is so entirely awesome.

In the words of my mom - fight nice. Turn off the computer and step away BEFORE you type that long winded attack to commenter12039.

Moxie have you ever tried the Beer Goggles feature on gmail? I think it would be cool to have the same function on the comment section. Some "moxie" goggles, ha ha ha. I.e. - go change a diaper and put away a load of laundry before this comment will be posted.

[suzie]

When I came here I felt it was a supportive place that encouraged positive parenting, and raising your children with respect. I loved all these things so it felt comfortable to me. But I also felt it respected the people who visited by accepting that these things were not always possible (or choices people made)and we are all fallible. And importantly, I felt Moxie treated us like intelligent people who were trying to the best we could, even if it didn't always happen.

When i see non-encouraging comments I guess I see the surrounding environment as being so positive I can move past them. This is probably the only place on the internet I can do that.

[lauren]

I think Moxie is doing a great job at moderating. After all, she explicity stated that she didn't want the topic to spark any guilt-inducing, anti-formula rants, which is exactly what badmom posted. I think this site is still a place for respectful, non-angry, discussion and possible disagreement.

However, I do agree with the many that have said they miss the more frequent Q&A posts. Lately, it's seemed more like Moxie Asks here than Ask Moxie. :)

[J]

Moxie, this is your dinner party. If you had a guest becoming overbearing and insulting in tone to the others I would hope that you would step in and smooth things over. It's totally cool. If you're worried about offending, maybe consider addressing the tone/topic rather than the poster directly.

[Shannon]

Okay, I'm just going to come right out and admit that the attacks on me RE: the alcohol at the baby shower totally made me cry. Yes, cry. I mention this because when my husband asked why I was crying, I said it was because of something that happened on a blog. He said I was being ridiculous because blogs are full of commenters being rude to one another. I said he didn't get it because nobody was EVER mean like that on Ask Moxie, so for anybody to breach that supportive culture to attack me, it must mean that I'm a really awful and hated person. I, too, considered leaving Ask Moxie, mostly because I didn't want to be this object of hate who everybody would against and thus ruin the tone of Ask Moxie. I was going to leave because I had so much respect for Moxie and didn't want to see her blog turn ugly. But several people stood up for me and made me realize that I shouldn't let a few mean comments get me down, so that's why I'm still here. (You all better not be groaning right now!)

I think it's okay to step in if people are attacking one another. It's not okay to step in just because people disagree, and I don't think Moxie has done that. The trouble is, when it comes to parenting, the line between differences of opinion and personal attacks is often pretty blurry.

[Charisse]

I'm among those who hadn't noticed much of a change--Moxie has always called out posters who she felt stepped over the line, and I've felt her choices in such matters have been judicious. I comment fairly often and I feel like I "know" a lot of other folks here, so some mild argument just feels like family disagreeing--mostly people are respectful.

I do think Moxie has been busier, but it seems understandable...and also more focused on the more diffuse and intellectual issues of older kids in her personal life. Me too, so that goes down OK--I'm feeling less qualified to comment on baby questions these days since it's been 3 years since I had one. Maybe we should be writing in with intereting questions (succinctly explain the history of American race relations and therefore why it matters that a dark-skinned person has been elected president, to a 4-year-old; help said 4 avoid worrying about bad dreams; will the Princess stage ever pass?) I think about all this stuff but it's not an emergency the way "I haven't slept in months" is so I haven't written to Moxie.

Anyway, I support your right to manage your blog any way you like, Moxie--I remain a grateful fan.

[Laura]

I have been reading this site and commenting infrequently since the beginning. I agree that this is Moxie's blog and that she should moderate comments when appropriate. I think it was appropriate of her to jump in and moderate a bit after badmom's comment yesterday.

I also agreed yesterday with Suki (but didn't comment) about the tone. A few people asked for specific examples... I think Moxie could have moderated badmom's comment without calling it judgy and misogynistic. I also felt that the last line where she kind of threw badmom's (rather insulting) words back at her was just stooping to badmom's level instead of rising above it.

I do feel like there has been a change over the past year or so... I would normally have expected Moxie's response to be along the lines of "Badmom, I appreciate that you have very strong opinions about the importance of breastfeeding. However, many mothers must use formula and in this community we respect that choice. Please refrain from comments that are hurtful to these mothers." Something that gives badmom some benefit of the doubt but firmly moderates her comment.

Basically, Moxie, I think you can moderate and respond appropriately without getting adversarial with the commenter.

I also miss the Q&A posts, and feel like the recent content has been more Moxie-driven than reader-driven. I figured that Moxie was either busy or hadn't gotten a lot of new topics. With so much great info in the archives, maybe it's hard to keep doing Q&A?

Anyway, Moxie, I appreciate that you are so open to feedback. Even those of us with some criticisms love your site and want to see it continue to be so successful. Thank you for all the work you do here!

[pnuts mama]

i'm trying to think about if i think things here have changed or if it's just been my own brain in baby bootcamp and barely being here enough to fully engage the way i like to. i would say that in many ways i have been proud of moxie these past few months, in the sense that what i have seen is her own voice coming out in a way i hadn't previously seen in the past few years i've been blessed to be a part of this community. i've attributed it to what i imagine is typical for anyone who has had a major life change that has stimulated growth- and i think that it must be difficult for her to try and be objective (which i believe she does- we've all seen it and that's why we're here) when she feels strongly about something- i'm proud of her, give her the slack i imagine any working, newly-divorced single mama of two little guys deserves and i think most of us are being very aware of that.

that said, i am as proud of anyone who speaks up when they feel differently- i have no problem with dissent and disagreement when it's done in a respectful and constructive way (which is what i think moxie tries to enforce when she does pop in the comments), which is what makes this community so important to me, and so unique. i've definitely disagreed and spoken up (and chosen to stay silent) when i've decided it was appropriate, without fear of being slammed.

that said, it's deplorable to me that we don't hold our food to the highest possible standards- on every level, for every person, regardless of age, location or class. the standards i hold myself and my family to w/r/t what we ingest- i want that for everyone, and i want it enforced by our new administration. i know it's unlikely, and idealistic, but dammit, what we have done to our planet, it has to be obvious to more than just me how it is manifesting in our bodies in so many detrimental ways.

***
so here is the ironic thing- i bf the bean, so much so that he will not take a bottle- it doesn't bother me the way it did the pnut, but every so often i need to be away from him and it's a bit of a pain. well, the past few days my husband was hospitalized for some cardiac issues- and i spent the whole weekend trying to get the bean to take formula from an old sippy cup with handles that was the pnuts- i imagine this ready-to-use chock-full-of-sugar organic formula has god knows what plastic in it- and probably the cup has bpa, and all i could do was try and get him to suck a little just so i could leave him with someone so i could be with my husband. i'm just sharing this since i really do agree with the commenters from yesterday that you just do the best you can- you demand excellence from those who are paid and elected to provide it, and know when to fold 'em personally.

finally- it all turned out to be for nothing- never got anyone to hang with the bean anyway, so i just had him in the bjorn with me the whole time- i hoped the "no children allowed rule" could be wiggled and it was, thank god. he was with me all over the hospital, invasive surgery area, recovery room for 6 hours, upstairs, all over. the staff couldn't have been sweeter and more supportive of me- it's making me tear up (probably pent up stress/relief) and loved this little munchkin who had a blast smiling at every new friend he made there. not one person gave me a hard time- not one- everyone smiled at him and me and asked me if they could help us in any way- anyway it made me think of a comment from yesterday- if we could change how, as a society we approach mothers/babies (parents/children) and just be more supportive of them so many of these 'issues' would just go away.

bah, it's late and i'm emotional and always grateful for all of you, and you most of all, moxie, for sustaining this place, which grows and evolves as we all do. my husband is recovering well, thank god, and should be ok, thank god, and i just wish you all peace and deep deep trust that this will remain a good and welcoming place for everyone.

[Jutta]

A friend of mine pointed out today that unmoderated sites turn into real zoos. And after some thinking about it, I have to agree with her. You go ahead and moderate Moxie. It's your boat and you steer it!

[terry]

Moderate as you feel fit -- tis your blog!

I agree that the "Ask Moxie" site has become a bit more "Moxie Asks," and I do miss the Q & A's. And maybe others above are correct in thinking that the reasons for this shift have to do with the age of your own children.

I'd hate to see the Q & A's go entirely. The archives are great, but sometimes a fresh round of comments are OK too!

[terry]

Moderate as you feel fit -- tis your blog!

I agree that the "Ask Moxie" site has become a bit more "Moxie Asks," and I do miss the Q & A's. And maybe others above are correct in thinking that the reasons for this shift have to do with the age of your own children.

I'd hate to see the Q & A's go entirely. The archives are great, but sometimes a fresh round of comments are OK too!

[Elana Sures]

@ anon, 6:59pm. I gotta say, your post made me *really* uncomfortable. I am as attached to my 5 mo old baby girl as anyone could possibly be to their baby (and she to me), yet I DO NOT and WILL NOT ever follow AP as it is extolled by Dr. Sears et al. To me, attachment parenting is loving your baby and demonstrating that love through attumnement to them and caring, respectful interaction. Co-sleeping, breastfeeding, babywearing, and being a SAHM are personal choices that are neither superior or inferior...and FWIT, CIO is also a personal choice.

One of the reasons I loooove this site is that it is not typified by a style of parenting, but more so encourages every parent to be true to themselves, not to Sears, Weissbluth, Ferber, Gordon, or whoever. I've found the Moxie community on the whole to be compassionate and supportive. To that end, Moxie, I really ppreciated your response to badmom.

Anon, reading your post I felt the same sting of judgement and superiority that has turned me off other blogs. My intent here is not to say that AP is bad, but more to say I'm every bit as warm, loving and attached as you are probably, even though I choose not to follow it (at this point i could really get into why, but I will not).

Thanks Moxie, for providing a democratic, safe, and nurturing community that has enriched my experience of parenting.

[Dawn]

I thought your response yesterday to Badmom was appropriate, especially in light of the instruction in the original post to not take this situation as an opportunity to criticize parents who formula feed.

And I say this as someone who has exclusively breast fed (#1 for 2 years and #2 for 13 months & counting).

Regarding the tone of the site in general, I feel like the core tone remains the same, and I just skip over comments when things seem to get testy.

At the end of the day, Moxie, it is your site and you should handle it as you feel appropriate.

[Carla Hinkle]

I have been a reader of AskMoxie since almost day 1. I used to read the comments religiously and comment frequently. I found the website a dynamic, supportive, fun community of moms who mostly seemed to want to help each other out. Moxie seemed to be "one of us," for lack of a better expression. I referred people (online and in the real world) here right and left.

But I have to agree with Charisse a few comments up. I find that the content of the website is what has changed and the tone has followed from that ... I guess maybe the fact that Moxie has changed her life so dramatically and wholesale, and maybe doesn't "need" this site to keep up her sanity (as she has mentioned on occasion it used to), has made it feel like she isn't really paying attention anymore. And so the questions/answers aren't as interesting or thorough, the comments get a little out of control.

I see upon re-reading that I sound pretty "judgy," but I have become disappointed in the quality of what I read when I click on AskMoxie. Moxie is a real person, with a job and kids and family stuff etc etc etc. She doesn't exist to run this website for the nameless, faceless Interwebs. But if there is a change in tone here, it feels to me as if it stems from Moxie being a bit on autopilot. I'm not going to quit reading ... but AskMoxie has become a "click and skim" rather than a "pour over and digest" website to me.

[Kristie]

My daughter is almost 2 and like many others, AskMoxie has been a life saver for me too. I've learned a lot of "methods" and gleaned tons of advice for sure, but the real gem is that AskMoxie has empowered me to be confident in my mothering. One who feels that experts and advice givers are valuable, but at the end of the day maybe I DO know what's best for my baby and that I AM doing a good job.

This has been especially key for me because I live overseas in a developing country where my family is far away and both my OB and pediatrician take a pretty hands off approach.

You were right on to moderate that comment. Its tone was harsh and judgmental. We mothers are constantly questioning and judging and regretting and guilting all by ourselves, we don't need anyone to help us do it more.

[Christi]

My life has been kind of crazy lately; it seems like we're reacting to various crises more than smoothly moving through our routines. So I haven't been reading regularly enough to comment on any changes in tone.

But I did think that Moxie's response to badmom was along the lines of being assertive and protective (of both this site and formula-feeding moms), not mean. The first time I read I was just relieved that Moxie had said something. I went back and reread it after seeing this post just to be sure, and it still came across as more boundary-setting than attacking to me.

I think that in some sites you wouldn't see that kind of exchange (between poster and moderator) because the comment would just be deleted. Actually, I hadn't realized before that Moxie's policy is only to delete spam...I thought there was probably already some heavy moderating going on.

Which honestly makes me think that AskMoxie is doing pretty well - that we have such a large community here, and that our conversations are pretty much respectful and intelligent...kudos to us! :-)

I so very much wish I had had this site back in the days of my own experience with PPD...but it helps to know that I can refer other moms here now. Moxie's also let us know how we can take action on a legislative level with this issue and that advice alone has been invaluable to me.

In short, I love this site. And I think it's to Moxie's credit that we're having this conversation at all - the hard thing is to address the issue, to examine where things are going wrong, and the fact that Moxie's willing to do that hopefully will help to correct the issue.

[Christi]

oops - 'poster and moderator' should read 'commenter and moderator,' I think. is it really 3am? :-D

[sudru]

pnuts mama...warm hugs to you.

on the topic...i like a good discussion, and it's Moxie's site...she should come in with comments...and the commenter has the freedom to weigh in again. It's how we learn and grow.

[Laura]

Since we're sharing... what I miss about this site is the Q and A. This site saved me when my son was first born, because every day I opened it to a new discussion about a problem I was either currently dealing with, or knew I'd be dealing with really soon. Now I open it and I don't see that info anymore, at least not nearly as often. Don't get me wrong - the discussions about self discovery and divorce and personal issues are important. But it isn't why I came. My son is 18 months and I'm pregnant with my second, and I miss the parenting help - sleep, tantrums, discipline, siblings, school, etc. I miss that. Still a great site, but I'm not here nearly as often now. Maybe its just a time of life thing, who knows.

[Cobblestone]

The women who live in the computer at this site have been amazingly helpful to me, before I was a mom and now that I am one. I will never be done being grateful for that.

Still, I do see a change in this site. I do think that it is a maturation of a number of things, Moxie's kids, Moxie's relationship with herself, and Moxie's vision/voice of being someone who can help others.

I miss the question / answer but I love the occasional primal scream day. I think yesterday's moderation was necessary but I have to admit that when I'm checking on comments I go from the bottom up so I didn't realize that Moxie's last line was a repeat of the commenter and when I first read it I thought "Wow! That was harsh".

Thank you Moxie, for everything you do.

[Eva]

Apparently I read the formula comment in question a different way, and I did not find it especially off-putting.

To me the gist was that of course by using a non-natural feeding method there are risks and unknowns at play. In my mind, this opened up a larger question of balancing modern life with the biological norm which went with the general topic of food safety in our society.

The way the commenter wrote it did suggest that she thinks formula use is just a matter of choice, an opinion I see so much of I just assume it's naivete at this point about the problems many have with breastfeeding. Honestly I don't know anybody who used formula (and nobody without agonizing about it) when breastfeeding was going fine, and that includes me, so the idea that people blithely choose formula is alien to me.

While I did not have a problem with Moxie stepping in and saying what she had said, I would have appreciated her acknowledging the reasonable part of the comment as well, rather than wholesale dismissing it.

[rudyinparis]

You know, I have noticed a change. I attributed to a couple things--a growing readership and also as a sign of a transition period... for Moxie. And me. And maybe a lot of other people here, too. I've been coming here, oh my, so much for the last couple years and it's the damndest thing but that also means my kids are 2 years older, I'm 2 years wiser... so the group shifts. The dynamic shifts.

Moxie has a right to moderate. I think a PP who suggested that maybe the Who Is Moxie section could be re-visited to clearly articulate the mission and vision and perhaps spirit guiding this site.

I also do not and have never considered this an AP site. It has clearly (to me anyway) been a site that does not adhere to one parenting method/dogma.

Shannon, I am so so sorry to hear that you were hurt by this space. I hope you're feeling better and that it was a good thing for you to come out and express how you felt when that happened.

Moxie has done so much for us. She's done so much for me! You all have! I'm a better person and a better mama because of this space.

[rudyinparis]

Oh, one other thing: our loss of Hedra... let's not foget her role. Her writing style and insights were, I think, huge contributors to the tone and grace of this site. I miss her.

[r+k+mama]

pnuts mama- I wish you the very best on your husbands road to recovery. I have a hard enough time taking my kids to the grocery store let alone a hospital in a scary situation. I'm so glad your son brought you comfort and you were able to be there for your husband.
I acknowledged that I felt a change in tone yesterday and just wanted to add that for me it wasn't about Moxie's response to badmom-I felt it was warranted. The shift I felt was in the loss of the Q and A's. I feel this community is at it's best when we are dealing with a specific poster. We treat them like the human being they are and are very gentle. Things get gray when we are asked to sound off on a topic and we lose the tone of gentleness. I don't know if this is a conscious shift by Moxie or a natural progression but this is her site so I will let her guide it to the best of her ability- which has served us all very well in the past. Thank you again, Moxie for all you do for me personally and for mothering in gereneral.
Where's Hedra?

[shifty]

@ rudyinparis: where did hedra go? i have noticed her missing too.

[Cassie]

I've noticed a subtle change too. For what it's worth, here's my opinion on what/why things appear to have changed. There have been (as pps have noted) fewer Q&A posts, and more Moxie musings, of recent. I think that in and of itself has contributed to the appearance of change, but I think it's more than that. In Q&A posts, a reader would write in with a question; often the reader was in a crisis, or at least at their wits end about something. Moxie, in replying, would take apart the reader's problem into smaller, more manageable, bite-sized bits, and then would attempt to address each of those bits. And the key part of addressing the problem or problems was that Moxie would offer multiple (often conflicting!) possible solutions, making it clear that there is no one right way to solve any parenting problem. That approach effectively set the tone for that post and readers who chimed in with their comments would take the same egalitarian tone, saying "Hey, this might not work for you, but we tried...".

With the more recent "What is with the state of the world, people?" type posts, Moxie tends to just state her opinion, and then ask the readers what they think -- which she of course is allowed to do! This is her blog, after all. But, in putting up a post that, unlike most of the Q&A posts, is relatively more one-sided, readers are automatically put into a position of agreeing or disagreeing. And because Moxie isn't afraid to talk about contentious issues, it is more than likely that people are *really* going to agree or disagree. This, I think, is the source of the recent tone of the site. In short, without Moxie telling us "Hey, it's ok to have different ways of doing things, and look, here are three or four of them," people fall into their old ways of thinking that their way is the only way. We Moxie readers may have lovely spelling and grammar, but we are occasionally, humanly, forgetful that "by any means possible" means just that: we as parents need support to do whatever it takes to parent our kids in the best, gentlest, kindest way possible, even if whatever it takes is different from whatever everyone else is doing.

(And, I think that the reason that the primal screams *rarely* descended into chaos is that they were always posted in response to Moxie going through some crisis of her own. Everyone got behind her and shouted out support, and then asked for a little of their own. Again, no sense that you had to agree or disagree.)