Sleepless/Seattle

We had a great meetup here in Seattle last night. There were around 15 women who came, with or without kids, to have dinner at the Seredipity Cafe. (Which was excellent, we thought. Mmmm, mac and cheese with truffle oil...)

We talked about a bunch of things, ranging from food allergies to couples' therapy to baby signing to food and politics. But one thing we talked a lot about was sleep.

I've been saying for years that I think sleep is our generation's thing. Our big problem, and the thing that seems to hurt us most and make us feel most inadequate. Past generations had different things--my grandmother was upset that my dad wasn't potty-trained by the time he was a year old, for example. But sleep is ours.

I think there are several reasons for that. Probably the single biggest one is that we don't put our kids to sleep on their stomachs. Our parents put us down on a full belly and we'd fall and stay asleep easily. Since we know we can't do that because of the SIDS risk, we lack the one surefire trick past generations used to use. (I also think this is why we don't get much sympathy from older generations about the sleep thing, because they just didn't experience the same number of problems we did.)

Another factor is that past generations were more likely to have an adult at home during the day, which meant there wasn't that same crazy pressure to get everything Perfect before maternity leave ended. Past generations were also more likely to live closer to home, and have family support. Lots of us now don't have any kind of safety net, and are doing it all alone or close to alone. That makes the sleep thing more high-stakes.

And yet another factor is that we have so many more "experts" now. In the past, there was basically Dr. Spock and maybe one or two others. So if what he wrote didn't work for your kid, you just confronted the Dark Night of the Soul of being a parenting failure, made peace with it, and moved on.

Now, if you absolutely can't conform to what an expert says, you feel like a failure, but you move on to another expert, and the cycle begins afresh. How many times have you heard "Weissbluth made me feel like a failure and Pantley was totally useless but the Sleep Lady Shuffle saved me!" or "Dr. Sears can suck it but Ferber changed my life!"? So much drama, trying to follow someone else's Method. If you'd just been allowed to trust yourself, and given a list of possible things to try, you'd have gotten there in the same amount of time, but feeling empowered by your ability to figure your own kid out. (this is also why there's such passion about CIO vs. not--if everyone just was allowed to figure it out for their own kid without feeling like it indicated anything about them or the kid, it wouldn't be such a huge symbol of everything that we all had to get defensive about.)

Any thoughts? Lamentations? Words of hope for those in the trenches? Other hypotheses?

Comments

[Julie]

A couple things....I never considered myself a co-sleeper until I looked at pictures of Alex's early years - many of them are with the both of us asleep in our bed. Huh. Go figure.

I also cannot qualify him as a "good" or "bad" sleeper....he has good days and bad days. At 5 months he went through that awful phase of napping for only 40 minutes at a time and was a total bear...he did not sleep through the night by even the most lax standards until he was nearly a year old, at 3 he still wakes up in the middle of the night and wants some "milky milk".....yet he can put himself to sleep at night, often runs around the house announcing excitedly that he's GOING TO BED NOW NIGHT NIGHT!!! and cheerfully waves at all around. So. Which is it? I honestly don't know. I think I'm lucky on many counts, but STILL we struggled (and still struggle) with sleep issues.

I'm pregnant with #2 (25+ weeks) and reading the comments, it sounds like if you had an "easy sleeper" the first time, the second one was a "bad sleeper" or vice versa. So now I'm worried. Mostly Alex was a good sleeper I think. I would say, if pressed, he was a good sleeper. And IS a good sleeper. My good friend whose child is his age would say "Hey. Wait a minute. I remember......" and list things about his sleep I have forgotten. I think this is the blur of parenthood. But I step back and say "Hm. Maybe he wasn't the BEST sleeper. I do remember struggling a LOT." But still....I see him as a good sleeper, and isn't that what counts the most? (the fact I'm not sure also tells me that compared to what many of you are going through, he is, in fact a good sleeper)

So, is there anyone out there who had TWO good sleepers? I'm scouring the comments to see someone say "both my kids were good sleepers". Other than my mom (who is in her late 60's and can't POSSIBLY remember the truth) no one has ever said that.

So somebody out there, please......tell me about your two kids who were, for the most part, good sleepers.

I am, however, looking forward to having a kid who has no eating issues.....that was our big struggle the first time. Looking forward to a kid who will eat anything, anytime, anywhere (of course, I'm aware there are no guarantees). I think a lot of it will also have to do with my anxiety issues over eating - I simply do not have the time or energy to obsess about it as much as I did the first time around - which I suspect is why many second children are classified "easy babies".

[AmyinTexas]

I haven't read all the comments, but based on Moxie's original post and Hedra's first comment, I'm wondering if the sleep thing is a convergence of two forces for our generation. I'd argue that pre-WWI, *most* American babies/children co-slept with either parents of siblings. In my own experience, difficult sleepers sleep better when they co-sleep (I say this after having a difficult sleeper with whom I did not co-sleep and having had a difficult sleeper with whom I still sleep... and I wouldn't even qualify him as difficult anymore. Naturally, I'm generalizing based on my own experience.). Post-WWII, with the GI Bill and other economic advances, families suddenly found themselves with more bedrooms and could separate children from parents and siblings. But it was also an era of Spock. Parents were told that coddling children was bad, that you would spoil them if you answered every cry. So you had babies separated for sleep who were allowed to CIO because this is just what you did. Enter our generation. We have been taught that you can't spoil them... we *should* hold them, coddle them, respond to their every whimper... but the basic structure of our lives/homes is still that old post-WWII ideal--3 bedrooms, babies have a nursery, children sleep separately. It's no wonder we struggle. I doubt babies really sleep any worse now than they ever have... I think we just can't be allowed to deal with it in ways that make sense b/c we are made to feel guilty by our parents' generation for doing whatever it takes... and we have been told it would be different than it was b/c our parents told us we slept by ourselves in our cribs from day 1.

Please don't read any of this as a criticism of any method or approach. I've got a bad sleeper (who is still a bad sleeper at 8 yrs old), a great sleeper who still naps and sleeps 10+ hours at night at 6 yrs old, and a toddler who falls somewhere in between those. I've co-slept, I've used one of those door knobs that kids can't turn to keep them in their room after lights out, I've used Weissbluth, Ferber, and Moxie. I think if a bunch of mommies had told me when #1 was born, "Hey, just go with the flow--by any means necessary," I could have saved myself a lot of guilt and tears. By the time #3 got here, I'd already adopted that as my mantra... therefore, despite some sleep issues, it was so much easier to take it all in stride.

[Moxie]

Julie, I can't qualify my first as a good or bad sleeper. He's a freaking awesome sleeper now (at 6 1/2). My second one was a much better sleeper in some ways (slept 8 hours in a row at 3 weeks!!!) but teethed early (shot that sleeping all to crap). And he needed to cry himself to sleep. Which was good in some ways (once I figured it out, of course) but bad in others.

I think kids are just different. And not always in a good/bad way. Which is good, because otherwise you'd compare them, which we all know leads to lifetime problems from having read the Siblings Without Rivalry book.;-)

[Fiona]

@professor mama
I read Weisbluth after reading BabyWise (the former a purchase, the latter a gift). BabyWise made me laugh. I got the general concept, but their examples almost literally said, "do this or your child will be a self-absorbed ninny."

Right. Weisbluth felt, at first, like a nice, balanced approach. But he, too, does a bit of the guilt game. In his case, the guilt revolves around the idea that if you fail to impose a particular sleep pattern on your child, you are harming him/her for life. Literally. Brain chemistry, later problems with insomnia, obesity, anti-social behavior, learning problems, all of it traceable, Weisbluth suggests, to sleep deficit and thus cognitive problems.

He makes a really good case for the value of lots of good, solid sleep. I liked that and it helped me to survive CIO and sleep training and all the things we did to get Mr. Boy to sleep. But you have to take Weisbluth, just like all the others, with a grain of salt.

@charisse: I am a historian, and you are right on. In fact, there's a theory about the witchcraft trials in Salem in 1692 that is partially based on sleep research showing that societies without electric light tend to sleep in 2 stages.

First from dark until midnight or so, then again from 2am to dawn or so. In the middle, people got up and moved around, worked, and occasionally got into trouble (hence the witchcraft connection).

It's a very interesting set of concepts, and it certainly suggests to me that our belief in sleeping all night (for anyone) is culturally and temporally specific, rather than innate or "natural" (whatever that means, this week).

[sueinithaca]

@JUlie -

I personally have two TERRIBLE sleepers. However, I have two friends who both have two very good sleepers. They are close enough, and I knew their children at a young enough age to say that yes, they really did have good sleepers and aren't lying about it. So it can happen.I actually told one of them that if I ever have a third child I want her to be an egg donor, because I can't cope with my temperament being passed to a kid again (ever remember when your mom said "One day, you'll have a kid, and she'll be JUST like you!" Well, it happened.)

So take heart - it may happen for you!

[Simone]

Wow. I'm short on time so haven't read through all the posts, but wow. I think this is an amazingly accurate summary of our obstacles the context in which we parent.

[Julie]

Moxie, it's 11:00 PM in New York and you are still reading and commenting.....get some sleep yourself.

:)

[Jutta]

There are several things that I have used over the years and they have worked for me each time.
1) In Germany we have a folk remedy that is fennel tea. In Germany, you can buy it in powder form and pre-measured. It is made from the seeds of the fennel plant. It has a way of relaxing the children and allow them to sleep easily. Because it relaxes, it also helps with passing of gas and gastrointestinal problems.
If you choose to make this tea from scratch, make it very mild, so the color is very light yellow. If you make it too strong, your child will sleep deeply. I have even been told that it can cause problems. Mind you, I"ve been told, but have never actually heard of anything happening. Here in San Francisco, I just go to my local German store (Lehr's) and buy the powder form. You can also get it from the internet.

2) Bath time is very important to relaxation. When any of my charges have tough time sleeping, I tend to warm their bath by just a degree or two or three, not even close to hot. Then I raise the water level a little so their body is in the warmth a bit more, and I leave them in a little longer than usual. That knocks them out for the night usually. However, I notice that if you do it all the time, the effect leaves, so be wise about that. AND:
NEVER EVER LEAVE THE KIDS ALONE IN THE BATHTUB. I know that should go without saying, but it never hurts to say it one more time :-)

3) Warm milk - I don't know if there is a real effect, but there certainly is a perceived effect. My little ones tend to trust me very much (with good reason). So when I tell them that I will warm the milk for them and that it will relax them enough to sleep, they tend to believe me and relax. That darn placebo ;-)

[Jilly]

Re what's causing us to feel like failures ...

I totally blame the Internet for my regular freak-out cycles. It's as much a hindrance as it is helpful. There is just so much information out there that every aspect of parenting (and life in general) can be disected and obsessed over. Great for empowerment but it also makes you doubt your strongest mother-tool: intuition. I find myself trying to get things 'right' when other mothers who aren't as research-obsessed just take whatever comes as 'normal' and move on.

Ah, Internets. I loves you and I hates you.

[Jan]

I would love to read every comment, because I am somewhat obsessed with the sleep thing. Not even in a bad way, but just in an interested way.

Someone asked about Weissbluth. I always have to put in my "defense" of him. I think he's got it nailed, honestly, but I think he's a terrible writer. Or he's got a terrible editor, or something. The information is good, but man is it presented in a way that makes it impossible to find what you need. At least that was my take. He is definitely NOT a CIO-or-nothing guy (which is often how I see him characterized). He's a be-consistent guy.

I had one with sleep difficulties (no way no how did she want to be put down to sleep and if you managed it, the first time she woke up, she screamed until you came and held her -- but she is also super-sensitive, so the slightest sound or movement woke her, so you can see the problem) and one who was easier. The one piece of advice that I think holds true for EVERYONE, no matter the issues, no matter your philosophy, no matter the age or gender or developmental stage or anything else is this: Pick a schedule and stick with it. I first heard the 2-3-4 rule here (for kids on two-naps a day: first nap is 2 hours after waking for the morning, second nap is 3 hours after waking from first nap, bedtime is 4 hours after waking from second nap) and I think it is dead on for lots of kids. You do have to feel your way around to find a schedule that works, but once you've found it, you gotta protect it at all costs. Don't keep the baby out 'til 9 to go out to dinner or because you want to run to the grocery store "just this once". Save it for when grandma's turning 100 or your very best friend in all the world has a 3-hour layover in your town on her way to spend the next 3 years in the Peace Corps in Zimbabwe.

I chose very different methods with my kids. My older we did CIO when she was about 6 months because she was getting totally overtired from waking up a thousand times a night and no, letting her cry for 45 minutes was not pleasant, but neither was forcibly holding her down when she needed staples in her head and I did that, too, because it was the lesser of evils. Sometimes neither choice is all that awesome. At least the CIO pain was brief (comparatively speaking). I firmly believe that if we'd never done it, we'd now have a 4-year-old who needed an adult (who am I kidding? she'd need ME and only ME) to lie down with her until she fell asleep every night.

With my younger, I got lucky. His sleep patterns developed the way the books suggest they ought to. I didn't even try to put him down until he was past the 6-week hellish mark (I slept on the couch, somewhat reclined, with him on me) and I held him until he was COMPLETELY asleep (by which I mean past the first 45-minute sleep cycle) until he was probably 3 months and then gradually started transitioning him to the cradle, then the crib. If he woke up in the night, I offered him food and rocked him back to sleep. Eventually he got to the point where when I offered him milk, he looked at me exactly the way you would if I offered you a sandwich when you woke briefly in the night. I never deliberately let him cry, but we did use a video monitor with the SOUND OFF. I could hear him from his bedroom if he really got going, but the fussy stuff I either didn't wake up for or delayed long enough for him to get over himself and go back to sleep.

If I had to make a top ten list of Things I'm Good At, figuring out how to get babies to sleep would be in the top three. I'd consider hiring myself out, but I'm hoping to retain my amateur status for the 2012 Olympic Games.

[Jan]

@Jutta, there's an actual biological component to the bath thing -- apparently the drop in temperature you experience going from the warm bath to the less-warm bed is a natural sleep trigger for our bodies (correlated, I guess, with the sun going down?)

[Heather]

@Julie, I'm pregnant with #2 also and also wondering. #1 was a cuddly little cosleeper who night-weaned at three, luckily a great fit for us. But I have one friend who has THREE great sleepers. Easy kids, mellow mom, and they all three were tummy sleepers.

I forget who asked, but there is a physical component to formula-fed babies sleeping longer--cow milk isn't as readily digestible by babies as human milk, so babies don't wake up hungry quite as fast.

I'm sympathetic to those for whom cosleeping doesn't work, but I have trouble believing that babies are biologically doomed by parents who cosleep and nurse on demand at night for longer than the first few months. I know it's not always possible or desired, especially with strict and long work schedules, but I was very taken by the bio/anthropology theories that humans evolved that way in Our Babies, Ourselves.

One other generational thing I haven't seen mentioned is the crazy long work hours we have now. I always have to laugh when my grandparents complain that my lawyer husband should only work from nine to five because he works for the state, whereas we count ourselves lucky that he is home for dinner most nights. I think when you had mostly a parent at home and a working parent who left work at five, the whole evening was less rushed--time for children to soak up time with parents, have dinner, and then a not-too-rushed bath and bedtime. Whereas if one or especially both parents comes home at six or seven or later, it's much harder to have a calm evening with enough time to wind down before bed.

[Parisienne Mais Presque]

The next time you're up in the middle of the night with a non-sleeping baby, consider what occurred to me last night at approximately one a.m.

Sometime in the not-so-distant future a couple will be walking along a beach at sunset. One of them will be your adult child. Picture the scene:

Man, taking woman in his arms: "Honey, you know what? I am so glad my parents never used a pacifier."

Woman, gazing back into his eyes: "Me too. Because otherwise you wouldn't be the thoughtful, loving, and disarmingly attractive man you are now."

[The man smiles widely and the sun glints off a perfect tooth.]

Man: "And I am so glad that your parents never let you CIO, or coslept, or left you sleeping in a car seat or baby swing, or failed to keep you on a nap schedule."

Woman, wiping away a tear: "I can only imagine the result if they had. I think of my cousin. She didn't sleep through the night until 18 months, and now, poor thing, she's not nearly the beautiful and dynamic career woman that I am today."

Man, pulling the woman's head against his chest: "Don't think of all that, dear. Just be grateful that we have each other... and our healthy sleep habits."

Woman: "You're right, dear."

Man, after a pause: "Darling, *you* are my sleep association."

They kiss and their silhouettes fade to black against the setting sun.

No wonder we all feel so guilty. Our children's future happiness is at stake and nothing less!

[Diane]

OK, Parisienne Mais Presque ... that was HILARIOUS. Thank you thank you for that.

One thing I try to keep in mind when dealing with the judgmental older generations many of us have to deal with: how different are things going to be when my daughter has children? What if all the research says breastfeeding is horrible, that CIO is better in all cases, etc.? How on earth will I ever feel like I can trust that the way I have done things isn't the right way? That will feel like a huge slap in the face, even though she'll just be doing what is right for her at the time. Because of these thoughts, I try to be gentle with my mom and not be hurt by her judgments, and I try to be gentle with myself so as not to put myself in that judging parental role to my daughter in the future. I'm not saying I give everyone a free pass, but I do try to put it in perspective.

[Mom2Boys]

Not to dampen anyone's hopes if they plan to formula feed for a better sleeping baby (as if) but T has been on formula his whole life and he has always been a voracious eater. Frequent wakings to feed and he tummy slept in his crib from about 12 weeks on and he slept on me (on his tummy) up until that point.

So, in my case study of one, a tummy sleeping, formula fed baby does not always a good sleeper make.

[paola]

I don't know if this has been mentioned (and hope I'm not repeating anything) but I think 'Kelly Mom' mentions that breastfed children whose mothers are away during the day to work do most of their feeding at night. I wonder if those of us who have bad sleepers or all night feeders are also mothers who work during the day. I wonder if it would apply to bottle-fed kids too, for different reasons though. Just a thought. Any stats?

[Jenny]

I struggled with this as a FTM for months on end! I read every book I could get my hands on about sleep, and they were all different. My husband's mom said CIO, and my mom said that was cruel and she never did that with me. It was enough to make me want to pull my hair out!

Having a kid that doesn't sleep well is not easy. Even though you shouldn't, we compare our kids to the neighbor's baby or our best friend's baby. My struggle, "They all seem to sleep, so why doesn't mine???"

I had to get out of this mindset! I had to put the stupid books down! All I needed to do in the end was to listen to my own child and what his needs were. My child isn't a CIO child. He gets hysterical in a matter of seconds and ends up throwing up because he is crying so hard. Every method out there may not fit your child, so ditch the methods and listen to YOUR baby! That's my two cents.

When I did that, I stopped comparing, I stopped being frustrated, and I accepted my child for how he was. I learned to cherish those middle of the night rocking moments that I know won't last very much longer. I tried to understand why he was waking up - teething mostly.

From my observation of my own son, I think babies mature differently when it comes to settling into a sleep pattern. It took my son 6-7 months to settle down and sleep through the night. That doesn't make me a failure or a bad parent because my child had trouble sleeping. I just had to be a little more patient than some.

[Betsy]

Re: sleep training using CIO - is it really ok for a child long term? I want to try it when my baby is born, but I'm not totally convinced that it doesn't contribute at least somewhat to increased cortisol levels in the system, which then can lead to mental health disorders like depression/anxiety in adults. I want to believe it's totally safe... because I honestly think it is very effective and useful.

If anyone has a study disproving this type of link, could you please share it? Thank you - and please don't hate me for wondering...

[jlg]

@Betsy, Moxie did a really helpful post on this a while back. Search for CIO in the "Search Ask Moxie" box on the right and you should find it.

[hedra]

@sueinithica, yesterday was the screaming fit because I insisted Miss R wear something warm, and (GASP!) socks and shoes. To school. In the rain, 45 degrees, windy.

Sensory issue here (though the tendency to decline clothes happens around the same time as some decline to use the potty, so it probably also has a cognitive issue in there). A hand-held massage thingy helps rather a lot. She'll scream at the clothes because they did something wrong (pulled against an armpit, she could feel it at her waist, etc.), run and grab her massager, buzz her armpit or ask me to buzz her back, and then put on the clothes without much protest (sometimes we have to do that run twice). And, er, we only had a short bout of her playing with the vibr.. er, massager in the peace corner by herself (or offering it to her siblings, eek?). Heh.

We're up to I think 5 dresses she'll wear (two are a duplicate set), and she mainly wears crocs (in the freezing cold), but at least we've added a coat to the mix. She's declined leg warmers, socks, and pants entirely. I don't even ask about tights.

***

Back to the topic.

One of the things that made me a huge Moxie fan was an early post about books and experts, where Moxie noted something along the lines of 'most experts have too much of an opinion about how things should be done'. I'm not a true fan of any baby 'expert' but Ann Douglas, who is an anti-expert - she has no agenda except evidence and information, and wants you to choose what works for you.

I'm way more about philosophy than method. I read the Sears books, saw through the checklist to the philosophy, adopted large portions of the philosophy and don't even remember all the items that were on the checklists (some of which irked me no end; the major Attachment research organization actually states that they do not advocate ANY specific child-rearing activities, because how attachment functions is a process of relationship and not a checklist). I can figure out how to protect my child's attachment function on my own, work my way through that process just with us, and I don't need to follow a checklist to make my choices work out to the same conclusion.

[MrsHaley]

@Julie & @Heather -- #2 is 5 weeks old and so far a typical sleeper -- naps on and off most of the day, sleeps 4-5 hours for the first stretch at night, then up every 1.5-2 hours until morning. FWIW, we are EBF. #1 STTN (8-10hrs.)at 8 weeks, but I think that's really unusual, and certainly not due to anything I did, so I will be satisfied if #2 keeps up with this pattern for a while.

@ProfessorMama -- I read & liked Weissbluth, mostly for the justification and scientific background on why good sleep is so important. We did not necessarily use his techniques for getting there, though.

@Alexis -- no tomatoes. You're dead on. IME, good sleep is paramount, regardless of how you get there -- CIO or Pantley or Sears or whatever.

@Julie -- on a personal note, #2 had similar DS test results as you got a little while ago (we had no amnio) and is fine. Thinking of & praying for peace for you, regardless of your outcome.

[enu]

@ Betsy: This recent study addresses exactly your point of concern but only as far as the age of 2 years old. They conclude "The sleep intervention in infancy resulted in sustained positive effects on maternal depression symptoms and found no evidence of longer-term adverse effects on either mothers' parenting practices or children's mental health."

Hiscock H, Bayer JK, Hampton A, Ukoumunne OC, Wake M (2008) Long-term mother and child mental health effects of a population-based infant sleep intervention: cluster-randomized, controlled trial. Pediatrics. Sep;122(3):e621-7.

[hedra]

@Betsy, if you want to consider CIO, I HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend you buy Dr. Ferber's book (latest edition only, it has the new content). He 'invented' the method, and he specifies exactly when, why, and under what conditions it is useful and effective. And also when NOT to use it.

High cortisol levels are a real issue over a longer span of time (the three days that is the usual marker for success with sleep training methods isn't that long).

BUT. Whether your individual child will find sleeping alone stressful enough to spike cortisol, and what signs they'll show when/if they DO spike into severe stress will be unique to your child and probably won't be relevant to other kids. I have one child whose native anxiety level is so high that she spikes into catatonic so quickly under stress that she bypasses crying and goes directly to quiet and 'coy' looking. If I hadn't figured out that she was so panicked already that she had ceased to function, I could have made some very wrong choices with her very easily. How I have to respond to her in order to maximize her function is vastly different than how I have to respond to my other kids. She literally 'broke' under even short-term, verbal-reassurance distress conditions (crying for a few minutes in the car while I was driving, for example, would change her behavior for days to disorganized attachment - panic on seeing me, fleeing when she wanted to be comforted, etc. - she didn't reach for me ONCE until she was 15 months old, after I'd figured out more how to handle her function failures). The same conditions that caused her total crisis were blips for the other kids.

There are other factors of uniqueness, too. One of my kids randomly cycled between tension-increaser and tension-reducer when he cried at night. I had to understand that he wasn't always going to respond exactly the same way, and just listen to figure out which way he was headed *this* time, and respond accordingly. Another child is very certain and demands to be attended to, but goes to angry and not broken if there is a delay. And the last is more quietly determined, and simply declines to sleep under certain conditions, but also puts himself to bed under others. Four entirely different planets - as mentioned, there isn't just a 'good' and a 'bad' sleep type, and there isn't just a 'kid who thrives with CIO' and 'kid who breaks with CIO' nor is there just two options on ANY aspect of this.

I kind of expected my second child to be either just like my first, or the opposite. He was just different. Sometimes 90 degrees different, but mainly just a whole different kind of different. (My favorite example is: Mr G, the first time he pulled up on a table, he glanced toward us to find out if it was okay to touch the things on the table before proceeding. Mr B, the first time he pulled up on a table, promptly ignored all the stuff on the table and tried to disassemble the table itself by digging at the screw heads. UTTERLY different planets.)

I'd suggest you start with Dr. Ferber's book, or Ann Douglas' book (or both), since they are the most likely to give you a wide range of options (Dr Ferber is not opposed to cosleeping, by the way). Toss in The Happiest Baby on the Block (Karp) as a backup study for biology and sleep in infancy. (By the way, sleep training isn't recommended by pediatric sleep experts until 6 months old, when they have the cognitive skills to learn what you are trying to teach, rather than learning something else entirely.)

And then work on figuring out your child, because when it comes to books, the child is the book on themselves. Learn to read *them*, and you'll have more information than any printed book available.

[Cloud]

@scantee- according to my Mom, I was exactly like your son: up every night at 2 a.m. wanting to play. I have no advice on how to fix the problem- my parents were sharing a house at the time, so my Mom just got up and played with me. But if it helps you to know- I turned out OK and don't seem to be scarred for life by the 2 a.m. play sessions. I'm not even a night owl now.

@Stacy- at about 9-10 months, my Pumpkin went through a phase where she would not nap for me unless she was moving. Luckily, she went to day care 4 days a week, or I would have gone insane. I took a lot of walks and drives during that time. Now she naps just fine for me- although she still goes down easier at day care. (I think it is the peer pressure of seeing all the other kids go down for a nap at the same time.)

What has most helped me deal with our not so great sleeping Pumpkin (now 18 months old, and still up at least once a night) is knowing from my Mom that my baby is just doing what I did. So it is easier to push aside the guilt and feelings like I'm failing (although those do come), and just work on figuring out how to make things work for our family. My Mom says she must have been tired during the day, but doesn't remember. So I'm hoping I'll forget about the tiredness, too. Also, my older sister slept through the night from very early on. The only difference my Mom thinks there was in our baby days was that she ended up weaning my sister early, whereas I nursed until I was about 2.

The other godsend, also a gift from my parents: they come over and give us a night off now and then. They stay in our house with Pumpkin, and Hubby and I go away to a hotel and sleep. (We also eat dinner together and have uninterrupted conversations and maybe even an adult beverage or two- it is fabulous.) I think Moxie's comment about the extended family support is right on. I feel very fortunate to have the support I have, and I still want more!

I'll also occasionally take Tylenol PM to help me actually sleep when Pumpkin's asleep. Sometimes I find it hard to go to sleep, because I'm waiting for Pumpkin to wake up. And then she has a great night and I'm STILL tired which is the most crazy-making thing ever. So every now and then, I medicate. The "PM" is just benadryl, so its even safe to do while nursing (which I still am). My ob/gyn suggested this while I was pregnant and having trouble getting enough sleep, and I've just kept it up post baby. Honestly, it is the best advice he gave me- and he was a pretty good ob/gyn with lots of good advice.

[Tamar]

I'm not the only one obsessed with sleep just because, um, I love sleeping - right? I mean, I don't have any guilt over the kiddo not being a great sleeper, or feel like I'm doing the wrong thing, I just - want to sleep. Because it makes me feel good.

(Hence my top two essential baby gear recommendations to expectant friends: king-sized bed and espresso machine.)

[Bella]

@professor mama: I'm not fond of Weissbluth, mostly because his writing style is patronizing, he's incredibly redundant, and he takes credit for basically inventing the wheel (IOW, he takes credit for lots of old-school wisdom that's been around way before his book). However, he's got some good info if you've never heard it before, interspersed with all the vitriol (sorry... I know some people like him, I see his strengths, but can't get past his limitations). Want to save yourself some money? I've summarized his approach before. Here's the gist:

The rationale for this approach is that babies and toddlers have natural, neurologically-based sleep rhythms that should be respected. It is the parents’ job to structure the child’s day and night such that sleep is optimized. The goal is to get babies and toddlers to sleep for age-appropriate durations throughout the day and night by watching the baby’s cues and following a handful of tips. There are about five main tips that can help children fall into healthy sleep habits. Some may be counterintuitive, but they are generally all “tried and true” techniques.
(1) Sleep begets sleep. The more a child naps during the day, the more likely it is that she will sleep longer and wake less frequently during the night.
(2) If a child is waking up frequently during the night or waking up far too early, put the child to sleep earlier in the night (rather than the more intuitive later bedtime).
(3) Do not allow babies younger than 4 months or so to stay awake for more than 1-2 hours at a time during the day. Try putting them down to nap after this short interval throughout the day.
(4) Watch for tell-tale signs of fatigue and put your baby down for a nap or for bedtime as soon as you see these signs (even if they occur only one hour after the baby has woken up). The sleepy signs include the baby rubbing her eyes, yawning, batting her ears, whining or fussing, and so on.
(5) Use the same bedtime routine every night (often including bath, bottle, breastfeeding, stories, rocking, and so on).

[anon]

@Chicago Mom: I had read Moxie's previous post about the difficulty we have asking for help, and it didn't really hit me till I saw your post. I almost cried. I've chosen to live near family, but I feel so lonely, too. I never ask them for the kind of help I really need. I can't even imagine how you feel not having that option, and my heart goes out to you.

[meggiemoo]

I think what helped me with not having to listen to my in-laws or friends or other relatives' comments on our parenting ("What? No pacifier?" "You're not circumcizing him? He'll hate you for that!" "You're STILL breastfeeding? That's totally for you and not for the baby") is that I stopped talking about stuff except to a very select few.

Yes, we were miserable with our sleep problems, but I figured out quickly whom to talk to about it without judgement (mostly, just my DH and my sister). I didn't ask for advice from anyone else, and if asked about a specific situation, changed the subject as quickly as possible.

My MIL, in particular (all of the quotes above are direct quotes from her) became VERY defensive about her parenting if she noticed anything that I happened to be doing differently than she did.

One thing I did that was a bit of a throwback was put my DS to sleep on his stomach. He wouldn't ever EVER sleep on his back. I researched the risk for SIDs, concluded that we were very low-risk indeed, and went for it. IMHO, the Back-to-Sleep campaign has gone overboard.

[hedra]

@meggimoo, there's recent research showing that having a fan circulating air in the room makes a big difference for the SIDS risk, as well - so for those for whom front-sleeping seems like the only sanity possible, there's another way to reduce the SIDS risk along with. Doesn't take it to zero, but reduces it a lot.

"Having a fan on during sleep was associated with a 72 percent decrease in SIDS risk compared to sleeping in a room without a fan. Fan use in warmer room temperatures (above 21 degrees Celcius/69 degrees Fahrenheit) was associated with a 94 percent decreased risk of SIDS compared with no fan use. Fan use also was associated with a decreased risk of SIDS in infants who slept in the prone or side position, shared a bed with someone other than their parents or did not use a pacifier."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081006180648.htm

[Michele Perlmutter]

Thank you, Moxie, for continuing to post about sleep. My son is now two, and sleeps like a little angel. It wasn't always this way. In those endless first 10 months when he was still waking frequently, I would read and reread your posts and readers' comments. They were my only solace.

Parents of little 'uns who are still not sleeping through the night: have hope. They they will sleep. Eventually.

[hedra]

Oh, and for the no-back-sleepers, the pediatric hospital made a 'recliner' out of firmly folded flannel blankies for Mr B when he was in hospital at 5 weeks old. Stacked them under his legs and arms until he looked like a mini astronaut on his back in a capsule - arms and legs both bent at a comfortable angle. The nurse said that babies (like him) with a strong startle reflex when their bodies are extended will *not* sleep on their backs without good leg and arm support. It isn't whether they're tummy down or back down, it is whether their body is extended or contracted (contracted sleep is typical in tummy-down position). She said that sometimes a hand on the belly will prevent the startle, but you have to stay there... I used to sleep with my hand on his belly when he was back-sleeping, because it just worked.

So many things they don't teach in the books...

[Julie]

Ah Mrs. Haley! Congratulations!!! I had my amnio about a month ago and all results were normal. Thank you for your good wishes. We are on track for another 9 lb baby. Hoping to go a bit early as I did the last time. I've been thinking about you and wondering, so I'm glad all is well.

:)

[Cloud]

@shayneegray- I just saw your comment and want to send you big hugs. Is there anyway you can actually get out of the house for a break? We went through a hellish period at some point (maybe 13 months?) where Pumpkin was up 4-5 times a night. My parents came to let us go away for a night. I was so worried that they'd have a horrible night, since she would scream for me if Hubby went in. But she did just fine with the grandparents. They took her in and showed her I wasn't in the bed. She cried a bit, demanded a cracker, and then went back to sleep just fine.

Meanwhile, I was sleeping the sleep of the dead in a hotel somewhere.

[amy]

Regarding why our generation seems to have so many more sleeping problems; my suspicion is that the our parents didn't co-sleep as much and that co-sleeping isn't best situation for uninterrupted sleep. (I know, personally I sleep better when I'm not sharing a bed with my husband). And (to continue wildly hypothesizing)I think so many more of us find co-sleeping appealing because we have to work OTH more often to support our families (dual income = more and more necessary as time goes on). That's my two cents.

Personally, we tried CIO/Ferber at 6 months and it's worked pretty well for us with the occasional rebellion.

[meggiemoo]

@hedra...that's really fascinating! I agree about the folded blankets under the limbs and around the baby...

[Charisse]

@Bella, yes, patronizing AND patriarchal--his book may have been one of the most offensive documents I've ever read as a hardcore feminist...I do understand that the information is true for a lot of kids, but I also feel compelled to reiterate that in fact, the sleep begets sleep thing and the 1-2 hours thing are not universal. I had a cheerful newborn who stayed up 4 hours at a time from birth, who became a 2 1/2-year-old who was a raging disaster with a nap and a gracious joy without. She's now a cheery, curious 4 1/2 who goes to bed a little later than her friends. YMMV on all of these "rules"--there isn't necessarily anything wrong with you or your kid if you don't fit.

[Keri]

Amy, that's a really interesting observation about how working outside the home makes sleep that much more critical for parents. And definitely true for me.

My daughter is 19-months-old and my husband calls her "the Madonna of sleep deprivation" because she is always reinventing the pattern.

She was an awesome sleeper until four months of age and then it was just erratic--great for one week, horrific for the next two--until fifteen months of age when she started sleeping deeply and soundly eight hours at a stretch. I really thought at the time that it was tied to her mastering the big motor challenge of walking because there was nothing we had changed with the to-bed routine.

Then something happened around 17-18 months and she cannot handle being apart from me. We had transitioned her to a mattress in her own room but she would wake up, scream her head off, and come running into my room after just a couple hours of sleep. So now we're cosleeping again and I'm trying to push aside my fears of disordered sleep for years to come.

I initially started out very anti-CIO, but now fully get why parents pursue that option. I honestly can't see it working for my kid. She was born mellow, social and easygoing. She not a tantrumer. She only cries when something is wrong. We have let her cry--sometimes with Dad present, when I am just spent--and it just never levels off, it just ratchets up in intensity even after an hour or so.

I am curious to know, from the parents who have great sleepers, is teething never an issue? Or is it just my kid who seems extra sensitive to teething pain at night? We had almost nightweaned when the canines starting coming in and now it's "Milk! Milk! Milk!" two to three times a night. She's so insistent and fussy that I suspect pain is the issue.

[Charisse]

@Keri, kids seem to have hugely different responses to teething. One friend of Mouse's (actually, a lifelong great sleeper with no training or anything) would just seem a wee bit fussy for a couple days and then turn up with a new tooth. Mouse? Weeks of rough nights for every group of teeth (she got them in clusters). I think they're just different.

[Valerie]

I'm putting this out there for anyone who reads anywhere that "they'll grow out of it by x age" and wants to pull her hair out because her child is already way beyond that age.

We struggled and struggled with sleep with #2. I think I was the most frustrated when I was bound and determined to fight it out, figure it out, make it work. MAKE him sleep. Ha. After 2+ years of cyclically obsessing about his sleep, I gave up. Path of least resistance all the way, baby. When the boy wakes, he comes into bed with us. Or if we're still awake, because yes, he very often wakes around 10 p.m., I get him back to sleep in his own room and he joins us at some point later in the night. 90% of the time, I couldn't even tell you when he comes in, he's that stealthy. We're all a lot less frustrated, and I'm not crazy insane from lack of sleep.

What was most frustrating for me, was that all the elements that were supposed to make independent sleep easier just didn't have any effect on this kid. Sleep begets sleep? Not for him. Nightweaning? No difference. Able to fall asleep on his own? Sure, at bedtime, but not in the small hours. He'll grow out of it? Not any time soon.

The boy is 3.5 now. When asked why he can't stay in his own bed all night he says, "But I get lonely, Mama." I occasionally think I should ban him from our bed, but I can't see a reason to fight that battle and make us all sleep deprived and frustrated again. I really, really like sleep, and I'm not willing to lose sleep pursuing a battle of wills with a preschooler.

Incidentally, my mom, who is usually incredibly supportive of how we're doing things, sometimes acts like we should force him to sleep in his own room. But guess where he ends up when he sleeps over at Grandma's house--in bed with her. He's just a snuggly, company-loving kid. Someday he'll sleep all night on his own. And honestly? We'll probably miss having him snuggled in with us.

For the record, our first kid slept 12 hours at night from about 18 months or so, with daytime naps on top of that. I can't take credit for that, and I refuse to take blame for #2.

[meggiemoo]

@Valerie...I know that it may not be your ideal to have him sleeping with you, but his explanation of why he comes in melted my heart. We're one of the few societies who expect our kids to sleep all alone in their own bed and room. Most other cultures have, at the very least, siblings sleeping together.

[sueinithaca]

@Hedra -

I think we may have had a breakthrough in *my* understanding of the clothing refusal. Mr. man is potty training right now, and is 99% effective when we are at home or a friend's house. *But* has tons of accidents if we are out (he won't wear a diaper and is 20 months old. This is not asurprise to me, but he feels strongly about potty training right now, and I feel like any child that wants to use the potty should be encouraged, regardless of my readiness). Anyway, it seems that he's not quite able to get his pants off in time, and really hates wet pants. So he's chosen "no pants" as his solution. Not actually a bad one except that it's 33 degrees, windy, and snowing here. We've begun a dialogue about how mommy will help him pull his pants down if he needs it, and will help him learn how. My hope is that once we're in the very cold weather, he'll have worked through this. I do think there is a sensory component, but that that is more minor than the easy potty access issue. He's had fits in front of a friend whose children have sensory issues (mild autism + a host of other things) and she has offered to have us over for a playdate sometime when her daughter's OT is there to witness a dressing incident and give her opinion. Of course, our babysitter is an OT and he dresses perfectly well for her (but then his expectations of pottying are different with her than with me) - she thinks it's a power struggle. I don't think it's a power struggle, as he seems panicked and distressed rather than angry, and he doesactually keep the pants on instead of taking them off and throwing them across the room. Right now I'm pushing legwarmers. If I can get him to wear legwarmers, a coat, and his fuzzy crocs, I think we'll be ok for a month or so.

For your daughter - will she wear the fleece-lined crocs? Those have saved us this fall.

[Ashley]

I haven't had a chance to read comments yet, but I just have to say how timely this post is. I was logging on to send you an email about my daughter and, you guessed it, sleep. This makes me feel a little bit better about everything that we're doing in the middle of the night to make her life easier (even if it doesn't make ours easier). Thanks so much for being here for us, Moxie!

[hedra]

@Sueinithica, we haven't tried the fleece crocs yet - I only just saw they existed a couple weeks ago, smack in the middle of the unemployment (new job starts Monday). So, er, pay first, then spend. ;)

@valerie, 'I'm lonely' is the usual reason our kids want to be with us (though the cause of waking often is 'refuses to wear PJs or teeshirt or anything to bed, then kicks off blanket, then freezes'). And by the way, once you get past 2, it is not typical to get them to WANT to sleep alone until around age 5 or 6 (you may succeed, but they don't want to). The highest rate of cosleeping worldwide is age 2-5. A) they can get to you on their own, and B) they have a lot of cognitive skills and emotional processing developing at once, and they prefer to have company when that results in something mentally uncomfortable! Bad dream, dark room, whathaveyou, they wake, they want company, safety, security, etc. They can figure out what the answer is as easily as you can, and it isn't 'Mommy needs her sleep'...

We had two in with us last night. In the queen, now that we've reduced the beds and separated the bedrooms. Sigh. Jumped the gun a wee bit on that (they're almost 4). In another year or so, we'll probably stop having visitors...

[Joy]

@Valerie- I, too, to this day, get lonely sleeping by myself at night. (I'm 33.) Ever since I can remember (and I can remember a lot even from when I was Very Little), I've not liked sleeping alone very much. My brother, 2 yrs. younger than me, slept in my room until I was 4, when we moved to a really old house (like 100 years old, which I loved) and I got my own room with my own giant bed and never really liked sleeping there alone, had terrors at night, would lie awake, petrified, imagining mice crawling inside the thick walls and the trees reaching out and grabbing the house, because I knew I would not be welcome in my parents' room. Until my sister was born and moved into my room with me when I was 12, and then I was fine. Now, when my husband is gone, I stay up as late as I possibly can keep my eyes open watching TV, because I still don't relish going to bed alone.
My kids sleep in their own beds, although they share a room, and usually stay there all night. But I will never deny them crawling in with me when they need to.

[hush]

@Valerie - I really admire your outlook on things. Both of your kids are lucky to have a mama who is so flexible and accepting of their unique needs.

[paola]

@Keri

My elder child was never fussed by teething ever. Not even the 3 year old molars had any effect on his sleeping, but he has always been an amazing sleeper (except recently since starting kindergarten and it's one virus after the next and lots of night-waking as a result).

My 22 month old 'seemed' to suffer through every single tooth at some point of their eruption. I went as far as saying she suffered for 2 weeks for every tooth, until the ped told me that if the tooth isn't through in a week, it's not a tooth that is keeping her awake. Now that all her teeth are through (except the 3 year molars)I see those same patterns and signs (sucking on fist etc) and realise I must have been wrong about the influence of her teething on her sleep. So, in hindsight, I would go as far as saying, teething did not have a great influenece on my kids' sleep.

I do tend to agree with Charisse though: it does depend on the individual child.

[Valerie]

Thanks, all, for the support.

@meggiemoo: He melts my heart, too. My older is 5.5 and can be...prickly...sometimes, so I am definitely enjoying his wanting to be near us (but primarily me) for as long as it lasts.

The situation has improved in the past year-and-a-half, to the point that I'm starting to forget what it was like before that (which is why all our moms and grandmas say we were perfect sleepers, right?). I just remember when I first found Moxie and read about sleep regressions. My thinking was along the lines of "regressed from WHAT?!?!?!?" As it was pretty continually sucky for, oh, 2 years.

But we've survived, and if, as Hedra suggests, we have another year or two of midnight visits, I think we're in a place where we can live with that.

Oh, and when he turned 3 we tried bribery--$1 for every night he stayed in his room earned toward a coveted toy. He earned a few dollars and then decided "I don't really need a Dinoco McQueen as much as I need to snuggle with you." So.

[ada]

My mom gave me some fabulous advice, not long after I had my son.

"You cannot make them eat. You cannnot make them sleep. So just relax about it."

It meant a lot to me to hear her say that. My mother was 34 when she had twins (me & my sister). She always worked full time. She gets how hard it is.

Until you've walked a mile in someone else's shoes....

[Danielle]

I don't know if I think that sleep is OUR issue - although I do agree that it's a huge one. My mother tells me that she had forgotten how awful it can be with a baby not sleeping until she got flashbacks of crying to her mother as I cried to her on the phone.

I really think that being so darned judgmental and the consequent guilt over not doing the right thing just might be OUR issue - coupled with the fact that there are so many experts with their "right" way of doing things and so many different mediums with which to access these opinions.

I read through some of the responses here and all I can say is - HOLY JUDGMENTALISM! (If that's even a word.) People were making me feel awful about my parenting even as they were saying they are not judgmental.

I won't pretend for a second that I don't judge, but I do try not tout my way of parenting as the end all be all. I know that so much of this comes from good intentions - if you did something that worked you want to share it with the world so it can work for them too- but perhaps if we didn't all feel so guilty that we're not doing the right thing we'd all sleep a little better.

And isn't that what this site is about anyway?

[z]

WARNING Thread Hijack:

I just wanted to come by and post that there is a November DC area meetup for bloggers, commenters, moxie readers, and anyone else who is interested.
There is a poll up at caramama's blog about when and where. Please visit and respond!
http://caramamamia.blogspot.com/