We had a great meetup here in Seattle last night. There were around 15 women who came, with or without kids, to have dinner at the Seredipity Cafe. (Which was excellent, we thought. Mmmm, mac and cheese with truffle oil...)
We talked about a bunch of things, ranging from food allergies to couples' therapy to baby signing to food and politics. But one thing we talked a lot about was sleep.
I've been saying for years that I think sleep is our generation's thing. Our big problem, and the thing that seems to hurt us most and make us feel most inadequate. Past generations had different things--my grandmother was upset that my dad wasn't potty-trained by the time he was a year old, for example. But sleep is ours.
I think there are several reasons for that. Probably the single biggest one is that we don't put our kids to sleep on their stomachs. Our parents put us down on a full belly and we'd fall and stay asleep easily. Since we know we can't do that because of the SIDS risk, we lack the one surefire trick past generations used to use. (I also think this is why we don't get much sympathy from older generations about the sleep thing, because they just didn't experience the same number of problems we did.)
Another factor is that past generations were more likely to have an adult at home during the day, which meant there wasn't that same crazy pressure to get everything Perfect before maternity leave ended. Past generations were also more likely to live closer to home, and have family support. Lots of us now don't have any kind of safety net, and are doing it all alone or close to alone. That makes the sleep thing more high-stakes.
And yet another factor is that we have so many more "experts" now. In the past, there was basically Dr. Spock and maybe one or two others. So if what he wrote didn't work for your kid, you just confronted the Dark Night of the Soul of being a parenting failure, made peace with it, and moved on.
Now, if you absolutely can't conform to what an expert says, you feel like a failure, but you move on to another expert, and the cycle begins afresh. How many times have you heard "Weissbluth made me feel like a failure and Pantley was totally useless but the Sleep Lady Shuffle saved me!" or "Dr. Sears can suck it but Ferber changed my life!"? So much drama, trying to follow someone else's Method. If you'd just been allowed to trust yourself, and given a list of possible things to try, you'd have gotten there in the same amount of time, but feeling empowered by your ability to figure your own kid out. (this is also why there's such passion about CIO vs. not--if everyone just was allowed to figure it out for their own kid without feeling like it indicated anything about them or the kid, it wouldn't be such a huge symbol of everything that we all had to get defensive about.)
Any thoughts? Lamentations? Words of hope for those in the trenches? Other hypotheses?
@meggimoo, I think we got the ONE easy-sleeping baby just to prove that not everyone whose baby sleeps well is a liar. Heh. I agree, we don't have as much influence as we'd like to think. And also with enu - eventually it isn't our problem anymore.
Okay, back to the hem sewing, now. I may not be on here much for a lloooooong time, as I'm re-employed and it is a No Internetz Play kind of place. Dangit.
Posted by: hedra | October 28, 2008 at 01:54 PM
Neither of my kids (almost 4-year-old daughter and 11-month-old son) are decent sleepers...and both still sleep with us. I remember the waking-up-every-two-hours-to-nurse bit with my daughter--my son has been doing it since he was born--and I think this time is actually worse. My son will not take a pacifier or comfort object in the middle of the night--throws them across the floor and howls with ire--and he will not let dad comfort him. My little guy is LOUD and persistent--I've listened to him shriek with dad for almost an hour, before I gave everyone a rest and held him. Instantly quiet, except for those overworked-crying hiccups. I know this will pass. It did with my daughter; she just moved on to other tricky-sleeping habits. But the physical toll this is taking on me is substantial. I've dropped to fifteen pounds below pre-pregnancy weight, which is too small for my body, and I spend a good portion of my day dizzy and shaking. I know, losing weight, cry me a river. But I can count every rib on my torso and my collarbones look like those in the scary tabloid "this-celebrity-is-dangerously-thin" photos. And my milk is slowly drying up because I think I just don't have the physical reserves for it anymore. As I said, I know this will pass. And I'm really looking forward to that time!
Posted by: shayneegray | October 28, 2008 at 01:58 PM
I think Shandra nailed it here. Our parents had no baby monitors. If the baby cried a bit and settled himself, they NEVER KNEW IT.
Posted by: Bobbi | October 28, 2008 at 01:59 PM
{{hugs}} to you stacy. We've been through almost 3 years of this, but it can still get the both of us down.
I do think we as parents believe we have FAR more say over how our kids turn out than we do. Look at any parent with more than 2 children, and they'll tell you that the easy kids made them think they were great parents, until the more challenging kid came along and knocked them on their asses.
Posted by: meggiemoo | October 28, 2008 at 02:03 PM
@Shandra - Man! I was just going to say that one thing different between now and 30 years ago is baby monitors. Now you can hear every little whimper, squeak or mew. There are even video baby monitors!
One of the things is that sleep is just something that you can't do for the baby. You can try to read him/her, and figure out what you can do to promote sleep, but you can't *make* the baby sleep. Just like you can't make the baby eat or make the baby learn to use the potty by 18 months. We can't do any of these things for them and we can't make them do it either. It can be very hard to be in the spot where you know something would make your child feel better, but not to be able to do much else about it.
I agree with the previous commenters who've mentioned that there are (broad) ranges of normal for developmental miletones and that kids do seem to loop back on themselves.
For my step-son, the major issue was eating. He was underweight and it caused a lot of stress for DH. Between how DH was raised (eating was a big issue for him & his folks) and the feedback from the doc (He's too little! Give the kid a PB&J or bologna sandwich every night!) and the monkey's own autonomy, appetite, growth curve, developmental spot, etc., it was No Fun.
I think that even if sleep isn't the family's hot topic, there will be something that is particularly challenging in the realm of things that you need the baby to be able to do but he/she is having trouble with it (eating, sleeping, potty, etc.)
Posted by: Cathy | October 28, 2008 at 02:10 PM
Little Girl is just shy of 5 months, and when people ask me whether she sleeps through the night "yet", I say that she's pretty much always slept well (once you get her there), except for nursing - but she's always slept next to me, so I just roll over and pop a boob in her not-quite-awake mouth, and it's all good. Don't hate me, I'm very grateful for how well she sleeps!
But.. she sleeps the way she sleeps, and while we're a bit frustrated with it now and then (especially with how poorly she sleeps during the day, generally), there's not much for it but to do what's needful. I grant that I have some luxury here, since I'm a SAHM and she's my first - and she *does* sleep pretty well most nights.
On the other hand, it would all be much worse if I hadn't planned to cosleep since before I got pregnant! If I had planned to sleep apart and then found I had a velcro baby, I would probably be much more stressed about it all. I'm also glad that I've always been very comfortable just doing what I thought was right, and not worrying too much about what anyone else thinks, a trait this group has helped me realized is pretty uncommon.
Posted by: Katie B. | October 28, 2008 at 02:11 PM
I think unrealistic expectations have a lot to do with the guilt that many parents feel about their child's sleep issues.
There are also these perceptions that there are right and wrong ways for babies to sleep. The "right" way is that baby is in crib for naps and nighttime sleep, no night wakings, no feedings at night, baby is in crib drowsy but awake and falls asleep on their own, and on and on and on... We do everything the "wrong" way. My daughter wakes at night, nurses to sleep, has a pacifier, cosleeps occasionally, takes naps on me, and I could just keep going. I don't really talk about it much with friends or family because I know they will tell me what I'm doing "wrong."
But my daughter is a happy, happy baby. Yes, she naps on me. But I'll take having her sleep on me for 2 hours and waking refreshed over her taking a 10 minute nap in her crib and then being a demon baby for the rest of the day. Once I let go of my ridiculous insistence on doing everything the "right" way, I was much more relaxed, and my daughter was happier too.
Posted by: Olivia | October 28, 2008 at 02:15 PM
Thank goodness. I think we all go through the mommy guilt and I do think it is about sleep, for all involved, baby, mom and dad. I have a 1 year old son who goes down easy for the night, but for naps, it could be 30 minutes or 2 hours. We still swaddle him for naps. We got him out of the swaddle for the night, but for naps, swaddle works wonders. One time recently he wasn't having any of the leave him in the crib at night and instead wanted to sleep with us. We haven't coslept since he was a newborn, and I wouldn't have a problem with it except for the fact that the little one literally is a gymnast in bed and woke both of us up constantly. My mantra...Do whatever works for you. I had the 4-5 wake up a few months ago where he would wake up with a poop, so I felt bad and went and changed him. He would go back to sleep only in my arms. That was a couple of hard months. Now he seems to have changed and wakes up after 6, which is like, thank god to me because it allows me to get more sleep.
Posted by: Shelby | October 28, 2008 at 02:15 PM
gonna jump in after reading most posts.
@professor mama: Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child is the title.
okay- we have a fighter/fitful sleeper in this house. she's tiny. she's strong willed. she's smart. she came home from the hospital scanning the joint. never seen anything like her....
her not sleeping was a HUGE issue to my adjustment; my spirit; my confidence; and my mental health.
my support system was limited to 1 or 2 people. my pediatrician was 'against' me (she sees the smallest window of this kid and she's the expert?)...
i was so lost; so alone.
until AskMoxie.
sure this is many of your stories too.
i would go to Target and see other mom's hoping to find an honest "yep my kid won't sleep" and found smugness and disconnect.
***being a communal driven person- this was the hardest part for me;
the disconnect to other Mom's i thought i was journeying with.***
i have that community now and i also will always be available to other new Mommies i see anywhere/anytime...
and yes, i saw a tired tearful one in Target the other day and gave her a hug.
Posted by: peaceinyourcrib | October 28, 2008 at 02:17 PM
Two things: bingo on the sleep on the stomach thing! A little trick that helps now that you can't put baby on his/her stomach: hold infant close and let him/her feel your calm breath and heartbeat.
Two: If Dr. Spock's suggestions didn't work, you didn't feel like a failure. You thought Dr. Spock was a failure. My generation of parents (same age group as Moxie's mom)were somehow not convinced that it was all up to us, except of course where emotional frigidity was concerned. But if the baby didn't sleep, colic, we said and got on with getting on with it.
Posted by: Num Num | October 28, 2008 at 02:19 PM
@MLB - Thank you for writing this: "I am always surprised at the number of people who have such strong opinions on things that don't affect them at all." YES! What's up with that?!
All of you out there who are just trying to make it through the night - I support you. "Whatever gets you through the night, it's alright, it's alright." By any means necessary. Yes! Yes!
Now I'm going to grouse a little bit about people who choose not to mind their own business about the sleep stuff. We have a 12-month old boy, and we co-sleep, because having tried "Literally Everything," we've found it just works for all of us. We had to buy a king-sized bed, and it's been very well worth the investment as the whole family is well-rested. But who knows if this will work for the next child. I'm certainly not naive enough to assume they'll be the same in the sleep dept...
Anyway, ever since one of DH's coworkers (a man) came to our home the first time and noticed there is no nursery, and there is a crib in our bedroom (for kiddo's naps), this rude jagoff just looooves to make these totally unsolicited comments like, "You need to get your baby out of your bed!" Excuse me? Every time he says something like that, I have to pinch myself to keep my mouth shut. DH has to work with him, so our temporary solution has been to avoid him socially. I think how poorly he must have been raised to think those are acceptable comments, and I also think what's it to him? Why something that has no effect on him is nevertheless such an issue for him; why we're so threatening to him? In my pseudo-psychoanalysis, I often wonder if it's due to the fact that we have a son, and somehow this guy's American Manhood is threatened.
One more to file under "What's Wrong With People?!" -- I have an acquaintance who routinely gives expectant mothers a gift copy of Weissbluth's approx. 500 page sleep book. Whatever one thinks of the book (it bored me & even worse, his methods did not work so feel I wasted entirely too much time with it, while others just raved about it), I find that extremely presumptuous. It's just as presumptuous as wrapping up for an expectant mother a huge can of formula - you have no idea what her plans are! To me, it's the very worst kind of unsolicited advice. End rant.
Posted by: hush | October 28, 2008 at 02:28 PM
Hate to hijack the thread BUT I'm in *need* of the Moxie communities help and advice!
Just found out that my niece has a bad uterine infection after giving birth 12 weeks ago. She has to stop breast feeding for 10 days. We're getting her in touch with a breast milk bank BUT she's feeling like this may be too much of an interruption for the baby and she fears that it may cause her son to prefer the bottle —you know the drill.
Here's my question, it's been way too long since I breast fed. Is there a product, tip or trick that can help her keep breast-feeding after the pump and dump is done? I remember years ago a product came out for adoptive moms that fed breast milk through a tube so the mom could bond and gain the breast feeding experience. Did I dream this?
If you have any wisdom on this PLEASE send me an email so we don't hijack this thread. Please send all tips, tricks, products and advice to sharon@proactiveparenting.net.
She has to begin the antibiotics by tomorrow morning.
Posted by: Sharon aka Mommie Mentor | October 28, 2008 at 02:37 PM
To add to the chorus of those grateful for this site, I, too, stumbled upon it searching sleep related advice and the feeling of acceptance and "yeah, me too" for what moms/parents go through no matter the issue has been so comforting. There is spot on advice, lots of humor and sympathy and support and it's been a life line.
So really, thanks to Moxie for making this place possible and to everyone who shares their story here.
On tummy sleeping, I put Bean down on his tummy at about 12 weeks because he would not sleep on his back. Ever. He was way to herky-jerky and had a super strong whatever that falling reflex is. He had to be swaddled so tightly.
But the other day I was talking to an acquaintance who had a SIDS scare with her little one. Had to give him CPR and he ended up in intensive care for two weeks and has an apnea monitor now. No obvious risk factors. Not sure I'd be so certain about putting Bean on his tummy again. SIDS just seemed more remote at the time and the fact that he slept, when he slept at all, the best on his tummy seemed more important.
Posted by: Mom2Boys | October 28, 2008 at 02:53 PM
My 9 month old has never been a great sleeper. Well, he's terrible really. Occasionally we get the nights where he sleeps for two or three hour stretches instead of 1.5, or he just needs a quick hug and then goes right back to sleep, but lately we're back to major rocking to get him to calm down enough to go back in his crib or even lay down with us. Thankfully, the initial GOING to sleep for the night isn't the problem (anymore anyway), just the staying asleep. He used to really suck at going down for the night, and it got worse and worse until I realized that I was spending three hours every night patting his back or nursing him or rocking him or whatever-- and God forbid if he finally got full! No boob, no sleep. I finally said enough, and had a few fuss it out nights (no full on screaming, I can't handle it) and now he goes down awake, barely, rolls around for about thirty seconds and passes out at 7pm (and then sleeps until 11 at which point it gets crappy.) It was so easy it was a little irritating-- I was like, whey didn't I do this before? I don't really let him fuss it out in the middle of the night because a) we share a room with him and b) we have housemates, so I feel my job is to make sure as many people get as much sleep as possible, even if it means that I have to wake up a lot. Hopefully soon we can really work on the in the middle of the night thing.
As for the older generation's take on things, when I told my mom that I was finally going to let him fuss it out a bit to get to sleep, but was starting out with me sitting by his crib with one hand over the rail, she said that I was lucky that I wouldn't have to listen to my little baby wail away forever, crying of loneliness and breaking my heart. She felt that she was forced to leave us in our cribs crying as babies, because that's what she was "supposed to do." It made me sad for her, and a little happier that I learned to take all advice with a grain of salt, pick and choose what works for me, etc.
Posted by: Summer | October 28, 2008 at 02:54 PM
Alexis, I don't want to flame you for your comments on sleep because I'm not even sure up to what age children you are referring to, BUT I did want to make a few points.
I agree that good sleep habits are important to build and I have wholeheartedly been a proponent and practitioner of good sleep habits in our house. However, I also really believe in the importance of not getting too caught up in numbers like "my child should be sleeping x hours at y age".
We know tons of children who are bad nappers from age 0 but are perfectly happy and healthy. There are also some kids I know who are good nappers and are also happy. I think that a solid night's sleep is probably the most important thing you can help your child accomplish by any means necessary. Naps are icing on the cake. Why do I think this? Because I have one of those kids who has never been a fabulous napper. She is too social, too involved, too interested in the world around her. She doesn't want to miss out on anything. She was quick to give up her 3rd nap, her 2nd nap and now at age 2 she is sort of on the path to giving up her daily naps too. Now, I could beat myself up about this (been there, done that) or I could just accept the fact that she is an individual who would rather stay up to look at her books and play with her toys than to nap. Do I try to get her down for the evening earlier than normal on the no-nap days? Yup. Sometimes it's lights out at 6:30 for her.
To try to get back to my original point, I guess I just wanted to say again that people who focus so much on sleep for children can go overboard a bit and can put undue pressure on already stressed out parents. Parents who don't give a damn about their kids won't be paying attention to sleep experts anyway, so the only ones whom you are stressing out are the ones already trying to do a good job.
Posted by: toomuchstrong | October 28, 2008 at 03:01 PM
My six month old is still a pretty lousy night sleeper (up four or five times). But frankly, it's almost liberating (note that I'm not currently working outside our home): I don't hesitate to travel or leave him with a leave him with a sitter, cause hey, it's can't get much worse, can it? I think if he were STTN, I'd be worried about screwing up a good thing.
Posted by: lizl | October 28, 2008 at 03:17 PM
@ Sharon aka Mommie Mentor...what antibiotics will she be taking? The majority of antibiotics are safe to take while breastfeeding (see http://www.kellymom.com/health/meds/aap-approved-meds.html#Antibiotics ). If her OB is telling her she must stop breastfeeding, I would want to know why or get a 2nd opinion.
kellymom.com is also a great resource for your question re: supplemental feeding methods.
Posted by: meggiemoo | October 28, 2008 at 03:20 PM
I really do agree with Moxie on the back-to-sleep. I've had two awful sleepers and I really do contribute a lot of our problems to that. The couple of times I let my infants nap on their tummies, with me hovering over them every second until I had half worried myself to death, they slept soundly. On their backs, terribly.
I've had several older women with grown kids comment on the same, they all had kids that slept well, and grandchildren who don't.
As for when they can then roll over and their sleeping not improving, I have nothing to base this on, but I think they've just had poor, restless sleep ingrained in them by that point. After 5? 6? months (when do babies start rolling over? I'm too sleep deprived to remember when mine started) of poor sleep, that's just what they know.
My theory at least. :)
Posted by: Steph | October 28, 2008 at 03:20 PM
I have to throw out a sleep suggestion (for us mamas) that made a big difference for my sanity! I am someone who really functions best on 8 hours/night, and I can't nap, I just can't fall back asleep once I'm fully awake. Around 12 months old, our daughter was waking up at 4:30 AM and she was UP until her midday nap. By that point I was just exhausted from never getting enough sleep. My husband (who can nap easily, any time) began getting up with our daughter on weekend mornings, and I went back to sleep for 3 hours. He then takes a nap later in the day. We are still doing this, almost a year later, and it has made a HUGE difference to my mood, concentration, patience, sense of humor, our marriage, etc. If you can't tweak your baby's nighttime sleep, I highly recommend trying to engineer more sleep for yourself, at least 1-2 nights a week...
Posted by: Alanna | October 28, 2008 at 04:04 PM
meggiemoo Thank you! She is taking Cipro and it's classified as an L3. I will tell her to go to that website. This is the 2nd round of antibiotics so I think she has to do this because she isn't getting any better. I'm looking into ways to support her with natural remedies, but the infection and it's a good one, needs to be cleared up. I am also looking for ways to fool baby into sticking with the breast for 12 days as she does this.
Any other help is really welcome. Sleep info to follow, if I can find a way today.
Posted by: Sharon aka Mommie Mentor | October 28, 2008 at 04:12 PM
I've read you for a while and so appreciate your breath of fresh SANITY.
I've always attributed the generational differences about sleep habits to the fact that many of our mothers had us when they were in their early 20s and many of us are having ours in our 30s (this is true for me, anyway). I don't know about you all but I used to be much more flexible and resilient about sleep loss than I am now.
Also, when I really, truly press my mom about how it really was as a mother to two young children, the glorious stories about how it was all roses and unicorns disappear and I hear about how lonely and miserable she was a lot of the time. In many ways, she martyred herself because she didn't feel she had any other choice. I refuse to martyr myself but that sets up conflict after conflict with my needs/wants smacking up against my child's needs/wants.
Posted by: Jenna | October 28, 2008 at 04:31 PM
This really struck a chord...especially this statement. "Past generations were also more likely to live closer to home, and have family support. Lots of us now don't have any kind of safety net, and are doing it all alone or close to alone."
Wow - I am lonely.
And, yes, I can see how lack of family support makes the sleep issue all the more pressing.
Posted by: Chicago Mom | October 28, 2008 at 04:34 PM
I'm the kind of person who needs to have a plan of action. I do the research and apply the results. So when my 7-month-old baby isn't sleeping through (and here in the UK that means 7-7 to most people), I look for answers.
I generally don't mind when people offer advice (b/c the first question from EVERYONE is "how is he sleeping?"), but what I hate is alongside the advice is the implication that "you're doing it wrong". That's how I hear it anyway. From co-sleeping to breastfeeding, these are apparently my problems. If only I hadn't co-slept until 4 months, he'd be sleeping through. If only I would give him formula, he'd sleep through. I know it's all bollocks, but I wish there wasn't such a judgement attached to seemingly innocent advice.
I think it's b/c people look for validation of their own parenting style/skills: "if you do what I do, and it works, then *I'm* a good parent". It's competitive parenting, and it sucks.
What is frustrating for me is that I know what my baby needs: he wakes in the night b/c he's hungry. He needs my milk and I'm committed to BFing. I get through it b/c I know eventually it will stop. But I tell you, the pressure (and the temptation) to give a bottle of formula or CIO is huge. B/c what if it works???
I take comfort, though, in that I know what he needs and that I'm willing to give it to him b/c I feel *instinctively* that it's the right thing. We need to give ourselves more credit b/c "by any means necessary" is often just responding to our babies and their needs.
Posted by: Jenny | October 28, 2008 at 04:47 PM
@ Michelle: Looks like our little boys are cut from precisely the same cloth! If you ever need to commiserate (not saying you don't seem fine ;-), I'm at onetiredema at gmail.
Posted by: Kate | October 28, 2008 at 05:12 PM
@ Sharon aka Mommie Mentor: how ooked-out would your niece be about cross-feeding (that is, getting someone else to actually breast feed her baby rather than just bottle feeding with donated breast milk)? I can't begin to think how you'd go about finding someone or arranging things, but I imagine a local LLL, or even the milk bank you're putting her in touch with, *might* be able to help.
Posted by: Cassie | October 28, 2008 at 05:31 PM
Stacy, we were in the exact same situation when A1 was your child's age. He's now 2.5 yo and although he never naps, he mostly sleeps through the night and will fall asleep much easier (my husband lays in bed with him--sometimes it takes 10 min, sometimes up to an hour). It was *so* *effin* *hard*, especially with a newborn thrown in, too.
My second is a terrible sleeper. I thought it couldn't get worse, but it did. The thing is, I'm so much more relaxed about it. I'm getting waaaaaay less sleep than I did with my first, but I feel so much better about it. I know it will pass, I know I'm doing the best I can, and I know he's thriving.
A previous commenter said that we should ignore the "liberal b.s. and trust our instincts" which she seemed to imply meant CIO. Now, I'm fine with what ever you do, what ever is best for your family, but my choice to not CIO is based on my instincts and for some reason it really offended me that my choice must be stemmed from "liberal b.s."
My MIL has commented many times to me, my parents, my husband at how well we parent and how wise we are to trust our instincts. When she was parenting young children, instincts were strongly discouraged. A mother listened to her doctor and that was that. She's both a little perplexed and impressed that we do so much gut-parenting. But she sees how well our boys are doing (despite the lack of sleep!) and knows we're doing what's best for our family.
And I really believe the older generations have their fuzzy rose-coloured glasses of memory on when talking about sleep. I know my dad is the loudest at complaining about how poorly our boys sleep, often saying that *his* kids weren't like this. Well, he didn't really do a whole hell of a lot parenting, so I just roll my eyes at him and say "oh yes, you must have been such a better parent than me". I try not to let it drive me crazy. Sleep isn't a value judgement on parenting and I hate it when it is made into one.
Posted by: m | October 28, 2008 at 05:39 PM
I totally agree it's all about expectations. I mean, sleep deprivation sucks, but I felt so much better about it once I ditched the books, except Pantley (not that it helped, but her intro made me feel better and I liked her tone) and finally convinced myself my MIL was full of shit and the boys would just sleep the way they slept. I was tired, but at least felt competent. Ask Moxie was my wake-up call, and I am so grateful for finding this site. My boys woke every few hours at night but what was really killing me and had me doubting everything was their 40 minute limit on naps. One Ask Moxie post about short napping did so much for my confidence as a mother.
Our current situation (19 months) is no more nighttime boob, boys mostly sleep in their cribs, but more than half the time I am on the futon on the floor in their room with one of them, and the other is in bed with my husband, by the end of the night. MIL thinks this is crazy but I think it's sleeping. The most amazing thing is they now nap (once a day) for 2-3 hours!! They started the > 40 minute nap around 14 months, I have no idea why. I had stopped trying to do anything about it.
Posted by: suzanna | October 28, 2008 at 05:44 PM
Sleep was relatively easy with the first one, with the normal regressions. The second is a different story, but in the last couple of years we have learned about some medical issues he has which cause him problems with going to and staying asleep. It makes me feel guilty about the times we tried cio and other fix-its. But I would say if your child is beyond toddler and still not sleeping well, talk to a doctor you trust- not one who will blow you off or offer a sleep aid, but one will listen and look for the possibility of a medical issue.
Posted by: Jill | October 28, 2008 at 06:42 PM
So many good comments today. A few thoughts from me (the Seattle/Ohio mama from the fun meet-up last night).
I agree with "m" who said that for her, going by her instincts means NOT doing CIO. I have a neighbor who felt very pressured by her husband to do Babywise with their brand-new, still pink newborn (adopted, no less). It was heartbreaking, mostly because it felt that she was working so hard against her instincts. That and the fact that they were wearing earplugs to ward against the screaming. Which made me want to kidnap the babe. But anyway....
My girl is 15-months old and wakes often at night. She naps for 55 minutes a day. She has never slept all night through. My husband and I have agreed that we're not doing CIO, largely because our daughter screams in such a way that we are convinced it will not work with her in a reasonable timeframe. The times I have let her go for 20 minutes or so, she is shaking and twitchy and it has been horrible and has felt very wrong. My instincts say that a baby needs to be held and sung to. And, years from now, I know I will have a million happy memories of doing this, even if I don't always love it now. And, I'd far prefer to have memories of rocking, singing, and nursing than memories of screaming and resisting the urge to pick her up.
I have found it beneficial to surround myself with people who have chosen similar methods of dealing with their kids' sleep difficulties. The last thing I need at 3 a.m. is to feel guilty for not going against my instincts.
Posted by: Kelly | October 28, 2008 at 06:46 PM
So many of you have mentioned all the *different* ways you’ve dealt with lack of sleep. There are as many ways to put a child to sleep as there are people, because each person, big or small has individual needs when it comes to sleep. That’s why I don't give sleep advice, I give as many sleep suggestions as I can and empower mom and dad to choose what ever works best for their sweet pea.
Difficulty putting a child to sleep or difficulty having them stay asleep is one of those things, as Dr. T. Berry Brazelton says, “parent and child have to make their way to each other and figure things out for themselves.”
Difficulty surrounding sleep does sucks but it also does one good thing. It introduces parents to a new part of themselves, a new level of their reactions and a new depth of their emotion due to the stress of lack of sleep. Being sleep-deprived means you’re raw and not thinking at the top of your game, but you still have to decide how to deal with the situation.
You have to decide, do I change what I’m doing? Do I keep doing what I’m doing? Do I do a ton of research? Do I listen to that research? Do I call my mom, my friends? Do I listen to my mom or my friends?
Being sleep-deprived is one of those times when a parent begins to use their own parental radar, they begin to rely on their mommy/daddy intuitive sense. Lack of sleep takes you to that raw place where your head is no longer in control and all you have are your instincts. You begin to balance many things at once as you decide what you want to do. Do you want CIO, do you want to try and wait it out, do you want sleep training, what does your child need/want and what do you need/ want and how does that affect your life and those in your family.
Why do I bother bringing this up? Because this is the beginning of a process that you will be dealing with for years, it’s the: My-child-has-an-issue-that-is-causing-her-to-be emotional-and-I’m-emotional-too-but-I-still-need-to-handle-this-so-I-can-change-it type of process.
As your child grows all parents will be dealing with issues and situations that not only can cause an intense reaction but cause lack of thinking too, just like being sleep-deprived and yet a decision must be made. So consider lack of sleep, as ridiculous as this sounds, as practice for your parenting future. And as far as I’m concerned I would have gladly traded that practice for a few more hours of sleep!
Just my two cents, on a very busy day.
Posted by: Sharon aka Mommie Mentor | October 28, 2008 at 06:57 PM
As for previous generations: Don't forget that the Betty Friedan's Feminine Mystique was written by a women's college grad of the mid-fifties. Life wasn't a bouquet of roses then, either. I didn't take well to sleep deprivation and was hauled off to a psychiatrist for depression and anxiety problems, medicated and suffered a lot. It was sleep deprivation that triggered it. I've spent the rest of my days urging new mommies to get enough sleep.
Posted by: Num Num | October 28, 2008 at 07:07 PM
I haven't had a chance to read all the comments yet. But oh. This is BY FAR our biggest issue. The little lady (21 months) has never been great in the sleep department and it has deteriorated even more the past few weeks. She's up MANY times/night. I'm past the point of caring how it's "meant" to be done. I just need sleep- badly. Actually, all 3 of us do and I'm really seeing how much the sleep deprivation is affecting my daughter. Hoping to read all the comments later and find some insight. I, for one, am definitely sleepless in Seattle.
Posted by: Danika | October 28, 2008 at 07:15 PM
@Alexis's comment about "30-40 minutes of protesting"? That is awesome. The first and only time my mother ever tried CIO with my sister (or any of us) the baby cried so hard for an hour she threw up.
I totally understand that some people use CIO a lot, a little, or whatever, and if it works, yay for you. But it's disingenuous IMHO to assume that listening to your baby scream for 30 to 40 minutes "doesn't have to be traumatic" for any parent. It's traumatic for *me* to listen to infants or toddlers cry for more than a few minutes, and I'm not even a mom yet.
Posted by: Rbelle | October 28, 2008 at 07:23 PM
I think there are a few generational differences. Breastfeeding has become more common again, and babies need more nursings at night than formula bottles. If I remember correctly, women of the current reproductive generation are spacing their children more closely, meaning that napping with the baby is difficult with a toddler to supervise as well. Also, more mothers are working outside the home, at more challenging positions. I found it impossible to work up to my former level while sleep deprived. I heard it's called "baby brain." Tighter schedules definitely put the pressure on too.
Posted by: mom2.0 | October 28, 2008 at 07:25 PM
I think there are a few generational differences. Breastfeeding has become more common again, and babies need more nursings at night than formula bottles. If I remember correctly, women of the current reproductive generation are spacing their children more closely, meaning that napping with the baby is difficult with a toddler to supervise as well. Also, more mothers are working outside the home, at more challenging positions. I found it impossible to work up to my former level while sleep deprived. I heard it's called "baby brain." Tighter schedules definitely put the pressure on too.
Posted by: mom2.0 | October 28, 2008 at 07:30 PM
I think there are a few generational differences. Breastfeeding has become more common again, and babies need more nursings at night than formula bottles. If I remember correctly, women of the current reproductive generation are spacing their children more closely, meaning that napping with the baby is difficult with a toddler to supervise as well. Also, more mothers are working outside the home, at more challenging positions. I found it impossible to work up to my former level while sleep deprived. I heard it's called "baby brain." Tighter schedules definitely put the pressure on too.
Posted by: mom2.0 | October 28, 2008 at 07:31 PM
Apologies for the multiple posts. I got an error message while posting.
Posted by: mom2.0 | October 28, 2008 at 07:36 PM
I'm lucky, I have a good sleeper (for the moment). But I don't dare say it out loud for two reasons. 1) The sleep gods might be listening and I hear they have a wicked sense of humor. 2) I know that it really has absolutely nothing to do with anything I am or am not doing (other than respecting his schedule) and that if I pretend it does, something else will come back and bite me on the bum. Hard. I hate it when folks act like aspects of their baby's development are a direct reflection on the parent. You should have seen my neighbor's face when she found out the little one wasn't rolling over at 7 months.
Posted by: Anon | October 28, 2008 at 07:56 PM
I really can't stand Dr. Sears and his "attachment parenting" b/c it makes it sound like anything OTHER than what HE prescribes is UN-attachment. He makes HIS way sound like the high holy grail of parenting and that anything short of that is just child abuse.
I love my child intensely, like any other mother loves her child, but I don't listen to Dr. Sears.
Anybody who makes me wonder if I'm a good parent gets thrown out the proverbial window. And that sometimes includes my mother and MIL!!! Go with your instincts!!!
Posted by: dontlikesears | October 28, 2008 at 08:01 PM
As far as family support goes? Sometimes it is perfectly awesome, sometimes it really isn't. I live literally within 2 miles of my parents, grandparents, and a couple of aunts, uncles and cousins. My daughter is one of 3 small children in my family that were born in as many years- she is the youngest.
I had ideas about raising kids that did not gel well with what everyone else has done- parents, grandparents, cousins, aunts, everyone thinks I am a weirdo.... My daughter was the only one out of the three to exclusively breastfeed (because I wouldn't let anyone undermine me, btw, one of these kids moms was told by her mother in law that she was starving and was browbeaten into giving formula) I put my daughter in the bed with us the first night we came home and she has slept without us maybe 7 nights, ever, when she slept with someone else...
I think what I am trying to say is that with family help, you also get family advice and people thinking that they actually have a say in how you raise your kid... My dad will come by and take my daughter off on an hour long adventure on some days, which is a blessing- but he also tells me that letting her sleep with me is a mistake, that being a vegetarian is going to make her stunted, and that I am going to go crazy and weird from being a stay at home parent. I dare not say anything about sleep problems because all I will get is a smirk and an "I told you so" and that really isn't any help, is it? If I tell people to butt right out of my business, people get hurt. If I tell them that they are not my kid's parent, they don't get to discipline, they don't spend time with the child. If I tell them that I don't like one specific type of interaction, they pull out of ALL interaction ( this is based on the idea that if my two year old tells you to stop tickling her, she should be listened to- you should stop. It is her body. Treat her like a human being.)
Ranty, my bad. Kids' sleep sucks, except when it doesn't.
Posted by: Kimberly C | October 28, 2008 at 08:33 PM
Oh, jeebus- I didn't put anything back into this discussion at all... I reflected on what I posted here while putting the kidlet down for the night and I am not saying my entire family is "evil" or even hateful sometimes- I AM overly sensitive and take things the wrong way, plus? That generational divide thing.
My mom? Formula fed her kids.
Maternal grandma? No idea, not topic for discussion
Paternal grandma? Concocted some formula in her kitchen for her three.
All of experienced the topic of the day differently because of their needs and expectations- husbands that didn't do well with middle of the nights, their own sleep needs- all of their kids were in a crib in their room and all cribs were out before two, I am sure. And they are sure that their way is the right way, leaving no room for how I am doing things. I am wrong, I need to "fix" it their way, I shouldn't expect my husband to do anything because he makes the money, I am the primary parent. So we differ in opinion. And I get angry like a flash flood.
Someone above said that maybe kids get used to broken sleep? Maybe so... my daughter wakes up to nurse in the night still, and when there isn't any more milk, she asks for a cup of water... most times when I make it back to bed she's back asleep again. She is waking up at that time as a routine. I am not quite ready to force the issue yet, I am just waiting to see how it will turn out- I will probably try harder to get her in her own bed come spring- we want another kidlet and plan to try in the fall, I don't want for it to seem to her like we are kicking her out in favor of a new baby so we want to do it soon.
*sigh* I still didn't add much to the dialogue, but that's all a load off my chest... ASK MOXIE is my therapy today. :)
Posted by: Kimberly C | October 28, 2008 at 09:01 PM
are you working on a book? because i would have felt SOOO much better reading this when mine was little than all that crap that made me feel inadequate!
Posted by: laura | October 28, 2008 at 09:16 PM
Babies were expected to soothe themselves in their own room in the 60s and 70s. Attachment parenting makes decent sleep difficult as the momma is often the soother. I know it's considered a myth, but I also think formula fed babies sleep longer.
Posted by: Lyn | October 28, 2008 at 09:25 PM
Oye Sleep.
I have 2 very different sleepers.
First Panda bear was not such a great sleeper. He started off sleeping in a co-sleeper moved into our bed and did not leave until he was about 18 months (even then he slept in a crib sidecar style) now at 2+ years he sleeps on a mattress at the foot of our bed and crawls into our bed anytime between midnight and 5am most nights. He did not start sleeping through the night until he was about 15 months. He had a long stretch of about 3 weeks when he was about 11 months but consistently it didn't start until he was 15 months which also coincided with weaning (his choice).
Baby bear has been a better sleeper from day 1. I will say no more as to not anger the sleep gods.
They are definitely different people but I also did things differently with baby bear. I was not ready for endless cosleeping again since I was exhausted from previous sleep issues and plus we could never get panda used to the crib or any such thing which made life very difficult when he wanted to crawl of the bed in the early am or middle of the night.
So with baby bear I used the co-sleeper at first and now the crib more often. All naps are in there and most nights too. Some nights he starts off in the crib and then ends up in bed with us (end result= all 4 of us in bed). And some days I like to nap with both boys.
So more separate sleeping (same room different bed) plus, with baby bear I don't jump at every noise that he makes. Someone mentioned this earlier about baby monitors and rushing to the baby's aid and I think it makes a difference. With panda he could have sighed and I would stick the boob in his mouth. With baby bear I wait and see and sometimes he makes a noise while sleeping, or goes back to sleep or needs us.
But lastly, and this is my dirty little secret is that baby bear has been sleeping on his stomach primarily since he was 2 months old. Some nights he slept fine while on his back swaddled in his blanket but for the most part he will not sleep unless he is on his stomach. I did not sleep very well and constantly checked on him but in the end I had to give in. He just would not sleep on his back at all. He would be miserable, I would be miserable and so I went with any means necessary. Plus by that time he could also roll over from belly to back and so that comforted me. It may not be the medically approved choice but it works in our house.
In the end I know that the root of all of this, they are both different sleepers I do think that I could have been a better sleep parent with panda baby in that I think I contributed to his frequent nightwakings by constantly sticking the boob in his mouth. I think there were times that he needed it and then there were times where I just got him used to it. But that's just a speculation in retrospect.
All in all I think that other commenters have hit the nail on the head with why Sleep is such a big issue. I will just nod my head in agreement that I think it has to do with the fact that we have more going on in our lives with less support and that we have less opportunities to make up sleep through naps etc..
Perhaps we should all create a Moxie commune and watch each other's kids to allow us to catch up on our sleep.
Posted by: Z | October 28, 2008 at 09:28 PM
I have nothing really constructive to add (i'm so fried that I just have zombie jokes running through my head) but wanted to echo that "Dr. SearsCAN suck it!" I really want that man in my bedroom at 3 am after I've spent *hours* "meeting my baby's needs" and he's still not asleep.
You'll all get a kick out of this - my darling husband, who is generally a reasonable man, thinks that it's time that our son sleeps through the night in his own bed and goes to sleep on his own in said bed. Mind you, for the past 19.5 months, this child has slept in bed with us and enjoyed frequent and barely restricted breastfeeding at night. And wakes up at least 4 times before midnight, not to mention after. I agree that these are worthy and admirable goals, but have not yet figured out how he is going to achieve them within the timeline he's set (basically immediately).
The poor guy just got back from 3 weeks of business trip and got used to sleeping through the night in a bed by himself (ok, he always sleeps through the night anyway). I just have to laugh...
Posted by: sueinithaca | October 28, 2008 at 09:38 PM
Sue, if your husband wants it, then your husband should do it. Get your son into the crib, and then figure out what to do in the middle of the night. He can do it. He totally can! I have faith in him.
(IOW: It's not really your problem, so don't take any of it on yourself.)
Posted by: Moxie | October 28, 2008 at 10:01 PM
too tired to comment.
Posted by: Brooke | October 28, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Listen, people, all you need to do is put a lettuce leaf under the baby's pillow! You do let your baby sleep with a pillow, right? On their stomach (it makes them strong!)? ;)
In my corner of Mexico, tummy sleeping is the norm (and lettuce leafs are, apparently, the answer to all your problems!). I'm not sure whether the tummy sleeping leads to babies who sleep better or not, especially as what constitutes good sleep seems to be a lot different than what my expectations are. Kids are allowed to stay up quite late here, and if they don't go down for a nap without incident, it's just assumed that they aren't tired. There doesn't seem to be a lot of guilt surrounding the sleep issue, as there seems to be less of a feeling that you need to make sure your kid gets X number of hours of sleep. Everyone here is more worried about how much their kid eats, because everyone wants a fat, "healthy" baby.
We've done our own thing, so my little boy goes down to bed at night between 6 and 7, and the other babies in his play class go to bed whenever they pass out from sheer exhaustion. They all have their crankypants moments, but I think it's more due to the fact that they're a bit older than my son and just starting to get into the temper tantrumy stage. It's quite interesting to see the results of completely different approaches to parenting side by side and not be able to see much of a difference in the babies...although I can say that tummy sleepers do seem to crawl sooner. It really does make them stronger! Now I just need to find some lettuce leafs!
Posted by: meandmrb | October 28, 2008 at 10:18 PM
@Moxie -
That's what I've told him. If he ever gets really serios about it, I plan to get a hotel room for a cople of night so I can't hear the drama. Might take the older kid, too so she doesn't wake up. I don't think he's as serious as he says he is (last night the baby woke up after they had both gone to bed - I was cleaning - and I thought I'd let him take care of it. Next thing you know, he's gone into my daughter's room and she's yelling 'Mom! your brother is escaping! he's in my room!' that husband is a sound sleeper) and the sleep issues are currently taking a back burner to the "I don't wear clothes. EVER" issue, which was a little cute in the summer but is kind of a problem now that we're closing in on November in upstate NY. I my actually write you and see if folks can give feedback about similar situations. I'm torn - power struggle or sensory issue? Both? Cussedness? I blame cussedness.
Posted by: sueinithaca | October 28, 2008 at 10:29 PM
@ Alexis: no tomatoes from me...I agree with most of what you said. I used the Sleep Easy Solution method, which does involve some CIO, but seeks to minimize it through weaning night feeds via a dream feed method that progressively and gently reduces the length of feeds. The CIO comes in when you put them down to sleep drowsy yet awake (a la Weissbluth) which, for babes like mine who were used to being nursed to sleep, is an adjustment. But, any way you package it, it is a CIO method.
However, now my daughter is sleeping from 7-7 with one feed in between, and napping 2-3 times a day, and there is hardly any crying to sleep. This is a baby who was waking every 2-3 hours to nurse and fought naps valliantly. What prompted me to try this method out was not my own sleep deprivation (I'm still on maternity leave - in Canada it lasts a year - I can deal with sleep dep.) but the fact that she was super fussy and tired during the day. Now she is happy and well rested.
I have the opposite issue to what many people are mentioning. I feel judged for using a CIO method, despite the fact that it worked wonders. I am a warm, loving, and compassionate person/mother. I hated hearing my baby CIO - it was torture, *but* I do not regret letting it happen because she now knows how to self-soothe. And, to your surprise, I exclusively breastfreed, wear my baby in a sling or carrier much of the time, and hug and kiss her every chance I get.
The judgment goes both ways - I don't judge others for co-sleeping and following Dr. Sears (even though I think he's the most judgmental of the lot), or for using formula, or for having elective C-sections, so don't judge me for my methods or label them cruel.
Posted by: Elana | October 28, 2008 at 10:31 PM