More unformed thoughts on those rough times (3 1/2-year-olds)

So I've been thinking a lot about this 3 1/2-year-old thing. And how it really seems to me like all the "difficult" stages seem to be at times that double: 4 months, 9 months, 18 months, 3 1/2 years, 7 years, 14 years. I don't know if that means anything, except that if you're 28 maybe you're having a tough time, too. And 56 might also be rough...

Anyway, it seems like the difficulties start out more weighted toward the physical but become progressively more emotional as the people get older. So that first rough stage at 4 months is mostly about being fussy and not being able to sleep. Then at 9 months it's not sleeping but more generalized crankiness. 1 months seems to be a tie between physical and emotional distress, and then by 3 1/2 it really seems to be mostly emotional (even if all of this is caused by some physical process of development in the brain).

It feels to me, from being on the outside of it, that the developmental spurt that's happening somehow seems to remove the protective emotional layers somehow, so that all the person's emotions are right there, waiting to bubble over at any second. The person on the inside can't process or deal with or control them. Which is why they get stuck in a "Pick me up!! Put me down!!" loop. It's like they have an exposed nerve, and any time anything brushes against it they just go off from the overload.

I've noticed that when I'm feeling emotionally fried, my child being in one of these emotional wack-out times just sets me off, too. But when I'm on an even keel, my response just instinctively seems to be more one of "Oh you poor sweet little thing. Let me give you a hug."

Does this resonate with anyone? About any of the stages? About yourself? Or do you think there's something different or more going on?

Comments

[Chaosgirl]

I SO needed to read this today!

@ paola - I am in the 12 month thing now, exacerbated by a move, starting day care, and a cold. Mmm...yes! It's the hat trick of fussiness! The wee one is not napping as well at DC and this is translating in to poorer sleep at night. For the first time in months, I had to soothe him back to sleep three times from 7pm to 11pm tonight. And he's waking several times a night and waking early (like real damn early - 4:30). (And here I am, unable to sleep at 12:30 am).

I am feeling frayed emotionally and dealing with the wee one (while DH is out having a good time) is *work*. Seriously. When he's freaking out doing the uber-back-arching-screaming-
pulling-hair-grabbing-glasses-how-
dare-you-try-to-soothe-me-with-a-pacifier-
you-horrid-wench freak-out, and my last nerve is being rubbed raw, I focus on the following mantra, "he is a baby. Repeat. He is a baby." Or, if things get really nasty, "Back away from the child." It's the hair pulling that really sets me off. or the hitting. I can deal with the screaming etc by dissociating from the sound, but the physical stuff I find hard to swallow and it sets me off. But, like Moxie says, when I'm feeling balanced, it's like water off a duck's back and my pool of patience is deep.

Ok - I really must try to sleep. 4:30 is coming fast...

[Sharon aka Mommie Mentor]

Tor, what does spoiling mean to you? What does spoiling mean to your mother?

[Tor]

Thanks Sharon. Interesting questions.
We both see "spoiled" as a kid with no boundaries, who always gets his own way so never learns to be considerate of others. So I think our conflict is because she and I had/have different requirements of where, and WHEN, to draw the line.

So that was why I asked about time-limit thing - if he doesn't really "think" until 3ish then until that age any learning is just habit/training, not understood why. So do I have until around then to get the "ground rules" established? That it won't matter if I wait until he seems more ready to accept them easier so long as they are established and consistent by the time he can "think"? And anything that requires understanding rather than just compliance is pointless until then because they don't have the cognitive skills?

[paola]

@chaosgirl

My sympathies. Does he constantly want to nurse too? That's what got me with 11.5-13.5 months. Wouldn't eat anything I cooked her, but constantly wanted to nurse. BTW, she's going thru that now too at 20.5 months(except she does want to eat almost everything on top of booby). 12 months was extra bad as she was also learning to walk and so naps were extra short as her body just wanted to practice walking. Sheer torture. Hope it gets better for you.

[MaggieO]

I really needed to hear this today...I have an 18 month old who is driving me crazy with the "up-ups." I will console myself that it is a stage and will END.

[hedra]

@Tor, in our experience, there's a lot of 'filling in the blanks' before there is definite understanding of the process. So for us, yes, we work on boundaries and ground-rules and values/principles and limits all along, using age-appropriate guidelines. Like, for 12 months, safety and no-hitting/hurting limits (but LOTS of architectural solutions/prevention), and moving from there through more modeling and verbal process modeling (that is, 'do as I do' stuff - showing how to be kind, considerate, thoughtful, how to take turns or share - EVEN though sharing is a later skill, model model model!, plus talking through the emotional-cognition skills, 'when I feel angry, I take a deep breath and calm myself down, then I ask 'what do I need?' and then I talk to someone to help me get that' - that kind of thing). We also adopt problem-solving and empathetic/active-listening/nonviolent communication as early as possible, because it sets up the patterns. EVEN though they can't always use the information, they will have the memory and structure to draw upon later.

For example, we practice calming down and problem-solving a lot. Miss R right now is finally grasping that problem-solving is a process of two people working toward a solution they can both accept willingly. She's VERY angry about the solution having anything to do with the other party, and is resisting actively the very IDEA (oh, the offront!) that the other party should agree. We're getting a lot of 'this is MY SOLUTION, I said I wanted this, this is MY solution.' ... but that's because she now recognizes that it maybe wasn't always about her solution, but 'our' solution, and is reprocessing all of that. BUT, how much better is it to already have the words for that? The understanding of the structure of the process? She can (and has) said to her twin sister, 'you need to calm down so we can talk. When we're calm, we'll talk.' And they DO it, because it has been modeled and practiced and modeled and practiced endlessly - Miss M will go off to the peace corner, or she'll wail and complain and then calm down (either, depends on the day), and then they *will* talk and find a solution, together.

So, the time between now and 3 is laying foundations - but not much real building. Still, laying foundations of understanding, empathy, language for emotions/emotional literacy, concepts of safety, respect, kindness, etc., all that is really important. It isn't so much that the child 'gets away' with everything they want, but that we address their needs understanding that they need and want different than they are able to process and understand. It isn't necessary to jerk the chain, set absolutes as limits, etc. It IS, IMHO, useful to set up patterns of limits, work on prevention strategies and problem-solving skills, and develop the basis of effective communication of both feelings and needs.

There's some stuff in my blog about architectural solutions, and some examples of what we do... not that we're perfect by any means! Sharon's downloads are also well-regarded (I've noticed a few people noting they've used them and found them super-useful...), and cost less than most parenting books (plus more targetted to your actual issues du jour).

[hedra]

Oh, and I wanted to say that I also adore the same ages that wind me up. It is FASCINATING to watch them change so rapidly. These are the times when they become 'people' in really crystal-clear ways. I've laughed more, and smiled more, and been more astonished, during these phases. I also learn a lot more about me in these phases, which is really valuable. Even if it isn't always 'fun'. It's exciting. It's the whole rollercoaster life thing - whipping through the ups and downs so fast sometimes everything is a blur, but it's a rush, too.

Now, ep, he likes the merry-go-round. ;)

(50 cents for anyone who knows the movie reference...)

[Mom2Boys]

@chaosgirl I also found it so frustrating when mine would do the same back arching-screaming in my face-push mom away-but wait don't put me down thing sometimes multiple times a night. I never found a good way to talk/soothe him down esp. if he didn't want a bottle. Then I was really in for it. Sometimes we went outside. Not really effective for getting back to sleep quickly. It seems to have mostly gone away - the nighttime freakouts. We still have plenty during the day but somehow it's a little bit easier to not take it personally or feel like as much of a failure during daylight hours. No good advice but I totally get it and hope it's a short phase for your little one.

[Mom2Boys]

I know the answer but only 'cause I googled it. :) I'm a roller coaster girl myself. I think that really explains a lot.

[effective nancy]

I remember half of 23 was rough, but it was a totally predictable thing: boomeranged home after being very independent in college, couldn't afford a place until I got a job (and even then, not so much), and whacked my head up against the ceiling of curfews and such that didn't apply for four years already, so hugely dissonant boundary issues made it impossible for me to live with my mother (my father and I were both very sorry I felt compelled to leave). As I now live three blocks from my parents, it's clearly not permanent damage.

As for 28: 9/11 happened then. I think the suckage of 28 had more to do with the outside coming in, rather than an inside-out emotional life. OTOH, who could tell? The whole world was suffering the same thing.

Tinkerbell's sleep was wonky coming into 9 months; now that's straightened out, pretty much, but she's yesterday and today having these other little outbursts not clearly related to basic physical needs (eating, sleeping, diaper), so it's either teeth (finally?) or emotional growth (very likely). We mostly just try to live through it, but I now wonder how motivated I'll be to think about a #2 just as Tink is emerging from/entering her next disrupted cycle. Forewarned, forearmed...for sure.

[marci]

for those of you with babies doing the back arching screechfests at night, have you ruled out reflux? that's what it looked like in my son.

this has been a really interesting discussion. i wish my baby were typically developing so i could get my head around the time references, but, alas, it ain't gonna happen. (he's 21 months, working on first words and cruising.) still, he'll hit it sometime & perhaps this will help me recognize it for the stage it is.

[Sharon aka Mommie Mentor]

Hedra is correct. And I want to jump off of two things she said, “laying the foundation and it isn't necessary to jerk the chain, set absolutes as limits, etc.” Hedra you’re such a great writer!

Tor, let’s talk for a moment about what boundaries really are. It seems to me that a lot of people think that boundaries are harsh, rigid and need to be applied without empathy. My version of boundaries includes a huge helping of empathy, step-by-step information sent at the preschool level and patience for the child and the stage they’re in. Most parents I have witnessed seem to say “I am giving him boundaries” as they punish and yell. That’s not the kind of boundaries I’m speaking of or that I offer.

Ex: Suppose you’re at the park with a friend who also has a three-year-old. The children see a large ground level fountain and run off to explore it. You warn them “don’t touch the water” and you and your friend begin walking toward the fountain. You see both children lean in, almost far enough to fall in, as they try to touch the water. You run up and warn again, no water! And you start talking to your friend. You and your friend warn the children at least 4 times, and finally you say, “do it again and we’re leaving and you’re in timeout.” The children do it again, and as you’re leave you say, “he never listens!”

What if you sent information at the preschool level, and took into account the developmental need for repetition and said, “Look with eyes, no hands and feet on the ground.”
What if you repeated that information each time the child leaned in to the fountain.
And what if each time the child needed to flex his developmental muscles and test this information, you just scooped him up, gave him a kiss, repeated the information and then put him back down to try again.
That is laying the foundation of discipline it’s not punishment. It uses modeling, repetition, support and boundaries.

Foundational boundaries are crucial to pre-threes or there’s nothing in the child’s psyche / foundation to draw upon when they do reach three and begin thinking as has been described in several posts.

Do not wait. If you do the child will have registered in his pre-three unconscious that life provides no boundaries and he will think he runs the roost. That will cause you to have to change his outrageous (it will have become outrageous by that point) behavior with a (figurative) sledgehammer, you get the image, just to make an impression on him that you mean business. I had a client where we had to do this—it wasn’t fun.

[Mom2Boys]

Thank you so much for that example. I often wonder what the practical application is of "setting boundaries" in a way that isn't just saying "No, don't do that" over and over again.
Why don't these things just come naturally? Why is it that I'm having to re-learn so much about just basic human interaction? It's crazy hard sometimes.

[Sharon aka Mommie Mentor]

Repetition is key.
Think about all the songs that children sing, the words are at the preschool level, and the same rounds are sung again, and again, and again.
When you teach a child about their letters you don't say memorize this letter because you will never see it again, you repeat it and repeat it.
And when you leave a situation you use transition warnings to help prepare the child for leaving.

That's how I view discipline.

Give them the boundary using words at the preschool level and repeat it and repeat it. Then it slowly becomes the transition from not listening to listening, but due to development, it take time.

[Tor]

Thanks so much Sharon and Hedra
(I love 'Parenthood'. We planned to watch it the night before my scheduled c-sect. Except it turned out I'd already had him by then LOL)

I think that I am using already, and plan to use more in the future, your method of gently teaching boundaries over time, tailored to the child's development level. I think my mother sees boundaries as something rigidly and ruthlessly enforced from the start because it is easier and quicker that way. So she doesn't recognise my boundaries as existing, especially the "in progress" ones.

I have the luxury of being able to indulge my child more than she could, and I think she is worried that I will go too far, so is trying to help by playing devil's advocate. I also suspect (but she'd deny) she may feel that when I parent differently to how she did that it means I think she did things wrong, when usually I don't think that, I think she did as best she could at the time in a very unfortunate situation. But I don't think that means her ways were the best possible ways in all situations.

She is going to be babysitting for us in a few weeks so I can see this niggling nagging resulting in a confrontation conversation soon. Thank-you for helping crystalise my thoughts on the area. What is it about arguing with your parent than makes you feel like a little kid again? hehe

[anon from shame]

Okay, very late commenting - just had a really rough evening. I just spanked my 3 1/2 yr old boy out of complete frustration and am feeling horrible and I know it is just because I lost all control. He cried afterward and wanted a bandaid and was understandably angry and upset and confused about it. I am feeling the worst mom today. It was just because he wouldn't stay in his crib and was terrorizing his brother each time he got out of his crib. We tried taking away every meaningful toy (one each time he got out of the crib) and it was obviously not working. Hard thing is this one time it worked - but I think it was more because it took the wind out of his sails and made him cry which settles him down. He seems to need to cry to calm himself down before he can go to sleep. I'm having a really hard time understanding. Any way to undo the damage from spanking him? Any suggestions on bedtime - keeping in his bed/crib - that is less volatile?

[hedra]

Hey, anon, you haven't ruined everything.

I'm picturing my eldest walking around after me for hours, saying in tones of wounded offront and outrage, 'You HIT me. Mommy, we don't HIT! Hitting is mean! You hit me. You hit ME! No hitting!' ... so, um, yeah. Doing it once out of control sets the lesson to not do it again.

So, the 'now what'...

1) damage control. Acknowledge the guilt, shame, regret, fear, and anger (all of which are typical in reaction). Guilt for having acted in a manner you believe needs to be redressed. Shame because you feel like it means you are a bad person (you're not, by the way, but you can recognize that this is where you went, and how you feel - doesn't make it true). Regret for the situation that moved out of your skill range and not being able to stop and recognize where to go instead - it's okay to regret the error that you didn't know how to not make. Fear that you don't know how to do 'this' (whatever 'this', big or small), and that you will not BE able to do it (common fear, not usually grounded when someone actively seeks answers). And anger at yourself for losing control, and anger at your child for placing you in a situation you were overwhelmed by, and anger at everyone who didn't teach you the skills you needed, etc.

2) Regroup. You and him, regroup - make your apologies. And by apology, I mean the full deal - I'm sorry, I did X, I understand that was wrong, in the future I will do Y instead, are you willing to forgive me so we can try again? (Tips: a) kids don't know the word 'forgive' but they practice it regularly. b) sometimes they're not ready to forgive yet, and that's okay, too.).

3) Check Sharon's downloads. That was a react vs respond issue.

Note on the removal of toys thing: Punishing by removing toys for me just led to me choosing to not care if my toys were mine anymore (which meant that I abused them and didn't pick them up MORE, and lost respect for other peoples' things, too). I could not choose to stop my parents from doing that, so I chose to not have it bother me. Just like being spanked for me made me determined to not be bothered by what they did. The 'you can hit me, but you can't touch me' thing. One tip on the 'it worked! WOO! we'll use that again next time!' reaction, from experience. If a method works 100%, for us it is probably 'too far' - it should work 85% with effort on our part. Otherwise, we know we've stepped across the line.

4) What to do instead.

a) The crib may be too confining a space. None of my kids would stay in a crib at that age, and your son may know that staying in the crib is required BECAUSE of the sibling issue, which means he's going to be angrier at the sibling and want more to take it out on him until he feels better. Is there a way to gate off an area that is bigger? Put the mattress on the floor or get a child bed, and gate the area entirely - a big area, big enough to get out of bed and play (QUIETLY)? Are there any other 'prepared environment' or 'architectural solutions' ideas that might be able to be employed? How can you take his needs and turn them to positive skills? Can you provide him climbing equipment so he can make 'climbing' a good thing?
b) expressing at sibling. Try Siblings Without Rivalry if you don't already have it. Most of the ideas are 'older kid focus' but they do apply down. Like writing up signs 'for the baby' so the baby knows to stay away from big brother's things (even though obviously baby can't read, you can play out scenarios where you point to the sign and remind the baby about the rule then remove the baby from the situation, etc.).
c) At 3+ you can use 'get out of bed free' tickets. You choose how many tickets he gets to start, but each time he gets out of bed, he has to give you a ticket. On the flip side, if he HAS a ticket, he gets to get out of bed 'free' - NO anger, frustration, annoyance from you, just do what he asks for a set amount of time (5 minutes tops, preferably 1-2, use a timer?), then it gently returned to bed. The standard starting point is actually just one ticket, but you could issue two or three if it seems to suit his personality better. Then, start reducing the number of tickets per day, and then per week. At this age, they tend to 'hoard' the ticket in case they might need it later. You can prompt for that - you give me the ticket, you won't have one later if you want it... though don't lean too far on that or you'll push anxiety buttons. Watch for the level of reaction, and tune to that. Most kids by the time they get to 1 ticket a week are done getting out of bed - they have a sense of what is important enough to get out of bed for, and what is not. (They can still call for you, from bed, by the way. I have mixed feelings about the 'I have to pee' option, though - I'm not going to make them stay there for that... and this program doesn't have an exception setup. However, it has been shown to be pretty effective with 3+ kids, in research, without causing undue trauma, for 70% of the kids who were repeat bed-leavers. The rest it either didn't suit so the parents dropped it, or it just didn't work.)
d) many of the 'sleep better' tricks like starting much sooner in the evening, or changing up the routine, or posting a list of things to accomplish for bedtime but letting them choose the order, any of that might help.

5) Not much help here for the crying releases tension kid - I think I was one of those, but I don't think any of our kids are that type. Some are closer - in that IF they cry, they release tension, but they also increase tension by being separate/apart, so most sleep training things are not on our list. And they have other release-tension activities. Like bouncing on the mini trampoline, or massage (not that oh-peaceful baby massage, but vigorous scrubby massage), or back scratching (one likes 'scritchies' to help settle), and most really just want company until they're 5 or 6 years old. (M is okay mainly without company, but not every night, R needs company EVERY night, B needs company sometimes, G needs company occasionally. Good thing they're all in one room at this point...)

I hope that helps a little. You don't suck, you just got sucked under. And as Sharon/Mommy Mentor noted earlier, this is THE age where parents start looking for another answer, because their old answers aren't working, and they've dug down so far into the parental toolbox they're pulling out things they don't like/want and trying those.

[anon again]

Hedra - thank you so much for the reply post. So helpful. On the get out of bed free ticket thing, what happens if they get out of bed again when they have no tickets? My boy having the most problems here has such a hard time getting consequences and has very little impulse control at this point (how do you teach that and does that signal some kind of disorder if it seems to be on the extreme side?)

I know you have twins so how would you approach the bed thing with the twins... if one uses his get out of bed free card, the other automatically wants to use his at that same time and then things escalate and the boys get ramped up and hyper.

Both boys seem to like sleeping in their cribs but perhaps this is a signal to try beds - scares me to death as there are even less boundaries but I suppose can't get much worse since they are able to pop out of their cribs so easily.

Back on the twin thing - have you found that your twins would "permit" you to discipline them completely differently. Taking the toy away and then allowing them to earn it back the next night really worked for my other twin.

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to post. The paragraph describing the damage control sooo summed up all my feelings.

[hedra]

Oh, yeah, the twins issue is a huge deal. One of the hard parts for me is that you have to complete the 'work cycle' with one without interruption, and then work the other. But the other wants to participate, and they get into the process and then you've lost track and try to recapture but it slips away and then you're trying to handle the other for interrupting and the first one loops into that and gets mad or pulls on you and then you're back to the first one and... and by 'you' I mean 'I', here... ;)

But it's important to work just the one. Hard, crazy, but important. OR, work them together but intentionally rather than incidentally.

As for the bed thing, we didn't do the tickets, because up to this summer we were pretty much in bed with everyone anyway. Like, where would they go? Between 2 and 5 years old is the highest rate of bed sharing, around the world. For a reason. This is the age where they CAN come get you, and they have enough mental toughness to beat you when you're tired. Putting the toddler bed(s) in your room may even be a possible solution. One of my nephews went from parents bed to toddler bed next to their bed, then toddler bed near the door in their room, then bed outside the door in the hallway, then outside his room in the hallway, then finally in his room. The other four kids (of theirs) had different patterns.

The different pattern thing is essential, I think. It is a mind warp, I know, but if it isn't working for one, then it isn't, so don't. BUT, I do recognize that a consequence that worked for M would freak out R - to the degree that she'd attack me in outrage that I was being so cruel to her sister (even though it was a tolerated and effective method with M, since R couldn't cope with it, R wouldn't 'let' me use it on M, either). And heaven forbid I do something that made one of them cry (like, refuse to give them jello for breakfast). It's nice that they come to each other's defense, but... if the other isn't angry at me for her sister, she's just telling me over and over again how I need to solve the problem.

Another possible solution is just to let them loose in their room - because sometimes when you take down the boundary, the conflict goes with it. It isn't that they're seeking another way to expand their range instantly, but they've now had their problem solved - they want to get in and out of bed at will. As long as your problem is also solved (safety, rest for you), then ANY solution should be okay if it meets that test. Even if it means they're sleeping on bean bag chairs ((over the age of 3 this is probably safe enough). And by the way, our almost-11 year old sleeps every night in his bean-bag chair. Right in front of the air conditioner (his body temp is on the low side, room temperature is 'too hot'). So, the solution might not be anything like what you picture, yet.

So, what to do from here. They're old enough you could ask THEM for solutions. NOT at bedtime, but talk through what you need, and what they seem to need. If they want to pair up their tickets, ask how to manage that - what is fair? Is it that the ticket is for both, and yes, both get to go if one goes, but they have fewer total tickets then? Because really, if that works for them, it does. Or, is it that there are a few joint tickets, and some solo tickets? If they use up their tickets, then they are to be put back in bed, gently but firmly (or back in their room, which may be more effective if they can roam in there). There are times we've forced the kids to work in tandem (all four) to solve a problem, because a solution for one created a problem for the others - so, look at how that affects your siblings, and solve the whole thing - both the original problem, and the secondary ones. You did X, now Y person is upset because they felt scared, so now you still have to solve the problem for X and also now for Y. Work together, see what you come up with. It takes practice (sooooo much of this age is practice!), but it is JUST practice. If you worry that it isn't solved yet, you're jumping ahead (an issue for me - I want it solved on the first try, and have to remind myself that many things are learned over a lonnng span of time, not on the first go!).

Also, try to separate out your problem, and each of their problems, and see if there are solutions that are not all bundled together. For example, for us, one of the bedtime issues was really that *I* was tired and needed MY sleep. So I started going to bed earlier. MY problem solved. Then we could work on what was really their problem - which was more along the lines of 'being forced to sleep isn't working for us'. A lot of the time, I was trying to solve my problems on their heads, which just created another problem without solving mine.

I don't know if that gives you enough ideas to work from... hopefully it helps. And know that it doesn't last forever - it DOESN'T. Not even with twins. The oldest just sighs now when we say time for bed, and while he forgets to brush his teeth unless we remind him, he isn't fighting us, getting up, going elsewhere, etc. He just gets ready and goes to bed. Self-running system. It will get there. Just make a bridge you can live with between here and there... good luck!

[mingram]

oh gosh i am 28 now and this HAS been the worst year of my life!! and my daughter is 3 1/2 and man i am having a time with her! at night she refuses to go to sleep unless i lay with her..and if i say no she screams and cries to the top of her lungs, and gets so upset she starts shaking! and she has a 1 year old brother that i am always scared she will wake up so i usually cave in to her..i feel like a single parent dealing with all this cause her daddy can never seem to breakaway from the video game long enough to help me at night when i am wrestling with my 3.5 year old..i am emotionally and physically exhausted! how can i get my child to be calm and sleep at night without the aid of me being in there with her?

[hedra]

@mingram, if that wasn't a rhetorical question... I'm not sure there's a good solution other than 'time'. I haven't succeeded at that age except for the child who was not like that at that age (much), and even then it was constant cycles of needing me for two days, me being able to extract earlier on day three, going to bed with little work on day four, and sometimes on day five, and then starting over at day one. Eventually the cycles got longer - the need-mommy stayed the same, but the don't-need-mommy got longer. But that was closer to 4 years old by then. And I'm not at all sure that it had anything to do with me.

Cosleep? Give DH the 1-year-old to sleep 'on him' until he comes to bed (whereupon he delivers said 1 yr old to his sleep location)? Timer on the video games? Very long talk about games addiction (if it is interfering with your life functions, you know...)?

[mommainca]

I haven't sucked, I've been sucked under. I'm crying as I read that and grateful for seeing it written above. Thanks, Mommas. I needed that.

[Adi]

If current prvaite companies can't rid a sudio apartment for $1500, what makes you think there gona get rid of them for the city salary, of I m sure, lets be generous, $15.00 per hour. LOL You have to be kidding me!!! You have prvaite PCO's charging thousands of dollars, yet have an employee making $12.50 an hr, who can care less If the employee was making even a small percentage of that $1500, mabye they would look into providing a quality service, yet the boss has them doing 12 stops a day with 3 budbug jobs included ITS A JOKE!!

[Urmila]

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