Hitting, biting, pushing, etc.

A blogger who may not wish to be named writes about her 2-year-old:

"[Kid] is hitting. When disciplined, she laughs. And then hits again. I've slapped her hand (now for the third time, something I'm not proud of) instinctively (why does being hit make you want to hit back?), which she also thinks is very, very funny.

Today, she picked up her toy computer and, full force, smacked the dog in the head with it and when we tried a time out (I know you don't like them, but I don't know what else to do) she laughed. She reacts, a bit, to our anger--meaning she stops what she's doing for a second and then starts to run away--while continuing the action.

Sigh.

I'm at wits fucking end here. We do 1-2-3 magic with most things and that has been working really, really well. But not with the hitting. Help?"

Man, I hate that reflexive hitting. I've done it, too, and it just seems to happen before I know what I've done. It makes me feel like a big old jerk, although apparently it's acceptable <eyeroll>, at least according to the people who make those V8 commercials in which the wife sees that the husband isn't eating any vegetables and smacks him on the forehead. Srsly, why they wanna play us like that? We don't have enough problems with 1) eating vegetables, 2) relating to our spouses, and 3) expressing anger appropriately already? They need to make that stupid commercial with the tired old gag from the 70s?

I think the not instinctively hitting back is just something else we can work on, and I'm guessing eventually the instinct just goes away. People who never reflexively hit and have never had the urge to: Were you hit as a kid? Because it's my suspicion that the reflexive hitting happens because it happened to us when we were small.

But anyway, on to the problem. It sounds like she's frustrated or angry. It's certainly the right age for it. And it's a problem that a lot of kids that age have. Some manifest it by hitting, or biting, or scratching, or kicking, or whatever.

I've talked about this a couple of times in the past, but the important thing to keep in mind in this phase is that it's totally OK for your kid to feel frustrated and/or angry. It's not OK for your kid to hurt people or animals. You don't want to try to make your kid suppress their rage or act "good" or anything that teaches them that what they're feeling is wrong or doesn't matter. The end result of that is that they go underground and start hiding from you.

But you do want to teach the kids that there are things they just never do. And hurting animals is one of them. One way to do this is to give them a designated alternate thing to hit. Some people have gotten a little pillow that they carry around, and whenever the kid starts to hit they reinforce that they can't hit mommy or the dog or whatever, so they should hit the pillow instead. Help the kid hit the pillow, and while it's happening help the kid verbalize the feelings. ("You're angry!") Here's a post from the wayback machine about how I used this idea to get my older one to stop biting people when he was this age.

Giving them a substitute allows them to feel and express their anger when they're still too young to verbalize it well, while also teaching them that there are always ways you can express anger that don't hurt other people.

Anyone else? Did you do things that you thought worked well when your kid went through a phase like this? And how did you deal with the reflexive hitting if you've felt the urge?

Comments

[Neener]

Honestly, this is where we spank. We follow the advice of not losing your temper, being firm and simply stating "You are not going to behave this way."

[Bella]

(1) Have done the reflexive hitting. HATED myself. The best thing I've found that works for me is to know my triggers: what makes me freak before thinking is when one twin brother (2.5 years old) hits the other on purpose, with a calm, mean look on his face. I'm immediately horrified and want to defend the "victim". (I find odd comfort in the fact that they have both done it to each other). Now, when I see it happening (less and less, thank goodness), I immediately rush over and pick up the "aggressor" and put him in a nearby chair, away from his brother, and facing me so I can talk to him. Knowing that these are the situations that get my adrenaline going has allowed me to change my impulsive reactions to it.

(2) I don't think that the reflexive hitting thing is about being hit as a kid. And not only because of my N=1 sample of myself, who was not hit. (That doesn't mean that kids who were hit may not also reflexively hit now.) But I think it's about the anger/rage system that is biologically programmed. We have different triggers that start that program off, but when it IS triggered, the immediate, evolutionarily-wired, impulse is to attack. We CAN override that program, but I do think that seeing your offspring purposely hurt you, your loved ones, pets, etc. is a natural trigger for many people, especially parents. And I don't see why you would have had to be hit as a kid for that trigger to work.

(3) As Moxie and lots of others have talked about, this age is the PEAK of aggression. There's lots of good developmental studies that show that aggression peaks at 2 normatively, and then declines over the years. Of course there are exceptions and some people (e.g., Richard Tremblay, a researcher in Montreal) have suggested that our work as parents is not to teach children to act "naturally" but to teach them NOT to, in terms of natural aggressive impulses.

DUDE. I sound like the boring prof I never wanted to be... Sorry.

I guess the bottom line with #3 is that if we keep setting consistent limits, demanding respect, letting kids express their emotions in appropriate ways (as Moxie says), this is a totally normal developmental phase that WILL pass.

[Caroline]

I took my inspiration in dealing with this behavior from back when we were training the dog. When the puppy bites you stand up and turn your back. No attention, positive or negative is a pretty serious consequence for a puppy. And in some ways puppies and kids ain't so different.

Granted, my (human) daughter never had a very bad aggression problem, but this method really worked on the occasions I used it. I remember when she was about two and a half one day she was repeatedly kicking me in the gut while she was on her changing table. Didn't stop when I asked, so once we were done I put her on the floor and left the room silently. Boy, did that make an impression. And once, way later she kicked me in the gut, once, and I when I asked what would happen if she continued she re-hashed the incident pretty accurately and promptly quit.

It at least gets you out of hitting range, gets you out of the situation where you might hit back, might send her the right message, especially if her normal reaction to discipline is to laugh.

And sending the message to a kid that people aren't going to hang around you if you're violent with them is pretty accurate.

But on a different note, in the V8 ad, when the husband is at the salad bar and says something like "Ooh, cheese! Oh crap, it's just carrots" I think I laughed out loud. Because I think I've done that.

[Slim]

I am in general not in favor of time-outs, but I do use them for the big stuff (which is hitting, basically). I do offer a choice of time-out or time-in, meaning they can sit by themselves or on my lap, whatever is going to help them calm down.

The laughing when reprimanded drives me crazy, too. I think seeing that they have succeeded in annoying Mommy was always kind of a rush for them. But I also think they were sometimes trying to persuade themselves that they weren't scared of their own emotions or my possible reaction to them (not so much the reflexive hitting, which, yay me, I have done too), but the fear that they've gone too far.

I know that it probably doesn't seem like putting a kid in that mood into time out is a going to help, but I think being able to stay calm and ask what would help them calm down -- being with me or away from everyone -- let them see that this was about their learning to be in charge of themselves, not about mommy not loving them because they're being bad.

[Moxie]

@Neener, seriously? You really hit your kid specifically to get them to stop hitting other people?

I just find that the least logical thing ever.

[Brooke]

I don't know how effective it is, but our strategy (with our 2.5 yo daughter) has been to have her sit in her chair or on the floor/ground "until [she] can control her body." We explain that no one is allowed to hit her, and she is not allowed to hit anyone. If she is angry/frustrated we tell her she should say "No, thank you" or "That's MY body" depending on what is making her upset.

We've also found (especially when we are out) that sitting her down and having her count to 20 with one of us helps calm her down and refocus her. And then she needs to apologize to whomever she hit and we talk about what's going on. It helps that she is very verbal.

If she is in a mood and hurting the cat (we have two, but only one of them sticks around to be abused), we explain that we don't do that because he is part of our family, we don't hurt people or animals, etc and that if she can't stop she is not allowed to play/pet/feed him for the rest of the day.

When she was younger and not hitting out of anger, but more because it was fun, we would have her clap her hands and/or give us high fives.

[Moxie]

Brooke, I like that you're connecting it to respect for bodies and respect for her body, too.

[ikate]

Holy crap! I could have written that question. This is EXACTLY my daughter who will be 2 in 3 weeks. Love the suggestions here and knowing that my little fight-club girl isn't the only one.

[professor mama]

We had a hitter and a biter too, at this age. We used the same "removing ourselves" tack that Caroline describes. It didn't solve the problem, but helped us to cope while he grew out of it, which he did. The blogger's kid sounds a lot like ours, who just laughed (and still does) at our feeble attempts at punishment/correction/redirection/distraction (and we tried it *ALL*). But if we walked away from him (soundlessly), that had a big impact on him.
Re: the dog. We eventually used the same approach with the dog -- we had to separate them. I know this isn't feasible for everyone (esp urban folks who live in apartments), but our dog trainer told us that there was no plastic surgeon who could repair the damage that a dog could do to a child's face. 'Nuff said. Our dog never showed aggression when she was hit, but it was too much of a risky possibility for us.

[Charisse]

Ahem, does wanting to reflexively snap back with some really nasty words at my (temporarily) sulky, smart-aleck 4-year-old come from the same place? Sorry, rough morning...and my mom is an expert at cutting putdowns, which she did use on us in addition to some spanking and hand slapping, so maybe that's part of it.

On the hitting, I haven't actually hit Mouse back, but sometimes it took all the self control I could muster. We accidentally pursued the "walk away" strategy at the age the poster's talking about, and it worked great. What happened was Mouse walked up to me one day (when she was about 2), clenched her teeth, and slapped me full across the face. The trigger was some darn thing or other that was frustrating her--I was shocked, and I just stared at her, said "no" and left the room. Mr. C left too (it was a safe room). Mouse caught up with him first and he explained that "mommy needs to be away from you for a little while because you hurt her" and that if she said sorry, I would most likely come back. Well, this off-the-cuff reaction made a huge impression on her...and in the process, helped me cool off enough to help her with the difficult emotional task of making an apology. Then we could talk about hitting and how "no one can hit you and you can not hit anyone"...and what to do if you are mad (yell, bang on the couch, etc.) that is better than hitting.

I also find that if I can model calm in my body it helps. I have a really hard time doing this if I'm on my period, and I have a correspondingly harder time with Mouse because she seems to pick it up and be much more fragile and frustrated--does this happen to anybody else or am I just weird?

[MLB]

Some additional thoughts - the book "Hands are not for Hitting" can be helpful. As can encouraging the child to express themselves verbally, to the extent possible with a toddler. Maybe signing would work here? I never did much signing with my kids, but since it's coming out of frustration it might work. I would actually argue against the "hit this instead" model since at some point you will have to retrain that as well.

The other important thing, along the lines of what professor mama said is protect the dog at all costs, as you are actually protecting your child and give attention to the thing/person that is injured while ignoring your child. She's doing it to make you mad so if you take that away, it gives her less of an incentive to do it. So over-the-top attention to whatever has been her victim will completely take the wind out of her sails and give her less reason to do it.

[anon]

I disagree that it sounds like she is frustrated. The parent here says that the kid is laughing.
With my kid I see two different kinds of hitting. One, when we take away the cell phone/camera/precious violin that he has grabbed. That is definitely frustration. For that we have, yes, used time-out. Because the point is that he needs a break to calm down.

The other kind of hitting is when he's playing his little slap and laugh game. Time out didn't seem logical, because he's plenty relaxed already. For that we tried total ignoring. We don't have a dog but if I did maybe I would take the dog and be all "poor baby dog! are you ok? I love you, doggy". while ignoring the kid.

I am not saying this has stopped the behavior cold--but, it does give us a strategy and a plan.

[Katie]

Oh man, my 15-month-old has already started this a while ago! We're so in for it with her. A little strong willed Gemini with an older brother to learn from.
When my 3-year-old was going through this I turned to AskMoxie and followed her excellent advice about redirecting the anger toward something not living. Worked like a charm. My girl seems to have more aggression than my boy did so we're going to work with her in the same way and see how it goes.
And the reflexive hitting is such an uncontrollable thing! I've always been a reflexive hitter (smacked my sister in the face HARD once when she jumped out to surprise me) but have had no incidents since having children. I wonder if I trained myself to not have any physical aggression toward them or if I'm just so tired that my reflexes are gone...

[enu]

Moxie, most parents do spank. And my guess is that spanking for hitting is a common reason. It may seem illogical and/or wrong to you, but it probably also works in the short term.

In my case, I don't have the urge to hit reflexively (and was spanked once as a child), and wouldn't have dared to give in to that impulse (or to spank unimpulsively) because I lived with the spectre of abuse/neglect investigation through my kids' childhoods.

I have known Very Good Parents (tm) who do spank.

I wouldn't take a toddler's laughter at being scolded too seriously, any more than a 13 year old's defiant "I don't care" when she's being punished for something. Otherwise that becomes a tool for them to evade consequences.

[rita]

Hitting a child, whether spanking or otherwise, does nothing but teach that it is OK to hit someone smaller and weaker. Hypocrisy is not lost on a child. My parents spanked me, and I'm fine, my brother and sister are fine. But this does not mean that I am beyond learning a new way of dicipline. I get the sense that most of the women here are not as well, otherwise, we would not all have such powerful feelings about our own reflexive hitting.

[Laura]

I am 100% anti-spanking of any kind, but I do accept that many parents are okay with it. I feel like it falls into the realm of CIO. Some parents view it as child abuse and some see it as a legitimate parenting tool. Moxie, I am surprised that you came out so strongly in the comments. I thought this was a safe space for all kinds of parents to comment.

[Johanna]

@enu, when you say that most parents do spank, how do you know? I am really curious about this. It does seem to me that hitting to teach a child not to hit, bite, etc., is illogical. From what I've heard, my mom spanked me once after I ran into the street at around 2 years old. Her spanking came from being really scared that her kid ran into the street and felt in the moment that I needed to be "shocked" a little so that maybe next time I would think twice about endangering my life. But it was a split-second decision, and one that she said she would not have repeated if given the time to consider it logically.

Anyhow, I'm just curious why you say that most parents spank - personal experience with parents you know, or knowledge from publications, etc.?

[hedra]

I'm with the 'the reaction is biologically wired' side, with a whiff of 'the degree of my reaction may have something to do with own childhood issues' - mainly because I have one who hits by instinct, one who pinches, one who slaps if she's feeling bold or just curls up and screams, and one who full-body tackles with fists flying or screams at the highest pitch he can hit. Of the kids, that is. So I think whether they react as hit or pinch or slap or scream or kick is relative to their wiring.

How much it winds me up is probably relative to my experience.

We've had the range (goody for me - can't we have had two who were just alike SOMEHOW, so I could recycle my parenting? Dang learning curve with each of them...). Um, anyway. So far, all of them have responded pretty well to the low intensity response to hitting, but firm, with boundaries and rules/principles ('safe, respectful, kind' stuff). That is, when someone hits someone else, the hitter gets the least exciting response I can give (okay, sometimes I suck at that, but it works when I do it better) - BORING is the last thing they want. Then follow with excited/engaged for anything else after that. It takes their energy cycle focus off the hit=interesting process.

So:

Child: Smack!
Me: (boring, calm voice, minimal eye contact, *try* for relaxed body) We don't hit when we're (angry, excited, scared), hitting isn't safe (or whatever the rule is). When we're angry, we (stomp, clap, run in circles).
Child: Ha! hahahahaha. (we did have one of the laughers, and MAN... oh, oh, the immediate twist inside when they laugh at your attempt at power/control...)
Me: (boring voice - do not wrap up, or you've made it interesting!) Here's something you can hit. If you're angry, you can hit this. That's safe.

*repeat as needed in that moment - keep the wording the same so it stays boring*

Child: (tired of the boring thing, wanders off to pick up a book)
Me: WOO, look at the BOOK! Isn't that an exciting book! Do you like it? Shall we read? WOO! BOOKS! I love books! (blather but engage)

It usually took three days for the 'whatever next else you do is interesting, the hitting-and-defiance bored me' routine to extinct the hitting.

Granted, I couldn't always manage three days in a row. Because... well, ack. Especially with the ha, you can't boss ME thing. If I'd wind up, get exciting, I could literally watch them cataloging how to get me to do that again. Break out the labelmaker, boys, we've found another Mommy Button!

Second tactic: Empathy gone wild - engage on the feeling, not the action.

Child: Smack!
Me: (quick intervention to stop the action - move child, move pet, move me, then...) You're ANGRY! SO ANGRY! WOW, that was angry. You wanted X, it didn't happen, that's ANGRY! I'd be angry, too.
Child: (usually repeats or tries to repeat the expression of anger - this is a 'YES! You GOT IT!' reaction, so be prepared. More verbal kids may just say YES!)
Me: OOH, when I'm angry, I like to stomp! Or scowl!
Child: (totally flabbergasted look - what? huh?) Older kids (over 18 months) may 'get' the idea and want to play along - stomp! Scowl! Younger kids may need a few days of repeating this offering before they figure out that this means that there is an approved way of expressing angry, and a not-approved way of expressing angry. It's one of those 'tell them what TO do, not what NOT to do' or as someone I think here said, 'don't tell kids to do things a dead person could do' - 'don't hit' or 'don't anything' a dead person could do.

Repeat the above empathy party for as long as it takes for them to try it on for size - then THROW THE BIGGEST EMOTIONAL FEEDBACK PARTY YOU CAN MANAGE. Happy dances, making faces to match the feeling, swinging them up in the air, party party party!

They rapidly get the picture that Angry (or excited, or whatever) means empathy but still no nice visceral way of expressing it - at least not the way they initially tried. But Angry plus expressing it in a useful/approved way means empathy plus party and attention. WOO! (It really helped for me to pick one that was as physical as their initial option, which is why the 'hit/bite/pinch this other object not person or pet' often helps - it's JUST as physical, and they may even feel free to be more visceral, more active, in how they express it.)

Basically, all animals understand the concept of 'jackpot' and what they really want is your focus, like a laserbeam, on them. The hitting comes out the way it comes out (slapping, kicking, whatever), but the repetition comes out because it gets double feedback - feels right to them, plus gets focus and attention. I hesitate to say they do it BECAUSE it gets a reaction from us - it's more complex than that. But they do come to rely on it because it solves more than one problem - expression and attention at the same time.

Also, one cue for me about what my child is feeling is how I feel when they do it. The one who laughed did so because my reaction left him feeling powerless or less-than or incompetent (unable to successfully express himself). So he did whatever it took to get me to feel the same way. In that case, laughing did it. The kids who didn't laugh had other reactions to my response to their behavior - they might feel angry, scared, embarassed, frustrated, dismayed, whatever - but they sure could bring that out in me in record time, as we're wired to do (biology is fun, huh?).

Sorry for the post tone, I'm sleep-deprived and running on too few calories for the second day in a row (not intentionally)... I can't even tell how that one came across. I just feel very hyper. Bleah. New routines for new school year, but at least everyone has started as of today!

[rita]

no one here would excuse slapping your child in the face, right? spanking is hitting. there is not a difference.

http://www.stophitting.com/disathome/factsAndFiction.php

[hedra]

Enu is correct as far as the stats go - but the stats include reflexive hitting, which I don't classify the same way. (~90% of parents have AT LEAST reflexively hit their child. Many reserve spanking/smacking for safety emergencies. I will see if I can dig up the stats... there was a study released this year I think that dealt with that, but I didn't like the 'spanking is any hitting with open hand including a single instance' definition.)

Not a fan of spanking, myself (yes, was spanked, but it was useless, as what I needed were skills, and it taught none other than how to isolate my feelings so I didn't care what they did anymore... whoops! Not even that power was by force, or that force was okay - just that I could always win if I went to 'they could hit me, but they couldn't touch me.')

[hedra]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080228220451.htm

Lists the '90 percent of US parents spank their toddlers' stat in the text.

[Isabella]

I was spanked (never in anger, never excessively) and so were my 3 siblings. We all turned out wonderfully (if I say so myself) and don't feel that we were victimized in any way.

That being said, my husband and I have decided NOT to spank our son.

However, I wanted to reiterate that there ARE some loving, kind, in control, thoughtful, gentle, intelligent parents out there who DO choose to spank. Perhaps there are many more who spank out of anger and frustration. Our closest 'couple friends', who are stellar parents, spank occasionally. I agree it is hard to see the rationale. However, there are people out there who spank and who I still respect as excellent parents.

[wealhtheow]

This is helpful to read. At 10 months, the boy isn't trying to hurt the kitty, but he adores her and wants to play with her and often his idea of playing with her is to grab her fur (and tail, and ears, and paws) and lean on her. Since the day he came home we've been telling him about "gentle pets," and now we help redirect him to being gentle with the cat--and when he does give her gentle pets, we praise the hell out of him, telling him how much kitty loves when he touches her nicely and how happy it makes her. But I'm sure the day is going to come when he starts hitting her to see what happens, and it's nice to have some tools already in the box for when that happens.

[enu]

@Johanna "@enu, when you say that most parents do spank, how do you know? I am really curious about this. "

Because I am a reference librarian ;-) Looking up stuff like this is what I live for.

[Laura]

When my almost-2-year-old smacked the Great Dane as hard as she could on the top of the head, we immediately removed her from the dog and told her "NO. We do NOT hit in this family."

She screeched and moaned and carried on. When she started calming down enough to listen, I took her back to the dog and asked her to say she was sorry and give the dog a gentle hug.

I think the only way to weather it is to stay on top of it and require them to "try again" with gentle touches. Eventually they'll grow out of it!

Bad parenting happens on both sides of the spanking fence. But being a "spanker" doesn't mean you are bad. And I don't think that ANYONE who comes to the Moxie blog is remotely a bad parent! Intentionality and thoughtfulness are the name of the game here.

[Toni]

There's research that shows that catharsis, specifically relieving anger by hitting, doesn't work. So I'm not sure that it's such a great thing to encourage.

I just read yesterday about an experiment where they angered people and then either ask them to punch something, or to punch a cushion and imaging the face of the annoying person on the cushion, or to wait a bit (basically distracting them). Conclusion: Hitting something instead of the object of your anger increases rather than decreases your anger. Its worse if you imaging hitting that person. Distracting yourself from the anger does decrease anger. Sorry I can't find the link right now.
Here's a link to a press release about a study with similar conclusions: http://www.apa.org/releases/catharsis.html

[Holly]

yeah, wow, spanking. Moxie, I'm kind of shocked you're not allowing for differences on that one... by far (statistically and experientially) most parents spank. At least occasionally. But even if that wasn't true and only a few people spanked, it would still surprise me to find condemnation here.

[eta]

No time to read comments before pick-up--sorry if I repeat or say anything non-applicable. Please just ignore if my story is unhelpful or redundant or anything. My 2-yr-old just went through a mild hitting her big brother phase. She adores her brother, and he can talk her into almost anything by force of just suggesting it. She'll be happily looking at a book, and he'll say, "Are you a puppy-dog?" and then she'll be doing that. I think she sometimes wants to say no, but doesn't have the wherewithall (yet) to tell him no, as his attention is such gift to her, too. The hitting seems to have disappeared since I started stepping in during those interrupt-y situations and telling her brother, "No, she's working now, she'll play with you a little later." I hope, HOPE, I am giving her a useful-by-example strategy that she can start to use herself as she gets more capable. Or the hitting could have just stopped 'cause she's done. I may have just occupied myself and not affected anything, as is often the case. Anyway, I wanted to contribute my story as a second to Moxie's original post that the hitting kid is probably frustrated or angry about something. I look forward to reading the comments tonight. (And I hope I haven't jinxed myself by writing this.)

[anonthistime]

I struggle with the impulse to hit - never have - but it flashes through my mind weekly. And it's always when I feel pushed over the limit/too tired to cope. IMO the impulse is connected with my own history of being hit, slapped, etc. Always out of anger or frustration (from what I remember). Since my teens I've vowed to myself that I would never spank because it made me feel fearful, degraded, and angry (as the recipient). But it's a struggle, like I said. I agree with PPs who have mentioned the hardwired reflex to hit back - that makes sense to me on an intuitive level (which is not to say that that makes it true). But I feel like I have more than that reflex - I vividly imagine hitting sometimes - and it's not like I try to imagine it, it just pops into my head. Each time I try to remind myself that I'm human, and frustrated. I also probably draw into myself a little bit to avoid lashing out. At some point I want to figure out how to model impulse control and managing angry feelings for my son, just don't feel like I'm there yet. I do verbalize what I imagine he's feeling and describe that my body/the cat's body/daddy's body doesn't feel safe when he's hitting. But I withdraw a bit too, for my own protection.

Regarding strategies, I'd also echo others who have described lavishing attention on the "victim," or walking away if you're the victim. In thinking about this just now, I think it's especially difficult to watch my kid inflict violence, even if it's a "natural" response to frustrating circumstances. I want my kid to feel empathy, but duh, he's probably not going to know how unless I help him understand how others might feel.

OK, done rambling.

[Lara]

Some days I swear you are in my house seeing what is going on. Last evening and again this morning my lovely sleep deprived (as in will not go to sleep in bed, must fall asleep on the couch, then once transferred into bed, stay for a few hours, go sleep with daddy then get up with him at 6 am) 4 molars coming in, adjusting to a new brother, 27 month old daughter has resorted to hitting and attempted biting. First it was not putting her towel on NOW, THE RIGHT WAY, then not throwing back the ball she threw at me while I was holding her brother. All I wanted in both cases was to tell her why I wanted to dry her off and why she could not throw the ball at me right now. Both times I gave her time to herself to calm (and the second time so I could put baby down) and then talked to her. When I tried to ignore it made her freak out even more, and time out does not actually "calm" her in the sense she is not crying but more in the sense I can get down to her level and we can talk. I am really interested in the comments so I can try and see what works for her. Since she has become a big copy cat, hitting her back would just make her think it was fine or cause her to do it to the dog. Which we have avoided somewhat so far.
I think she is a highly reactive child, as in she will react to a situation so quickly, I don't even see it coming. Does this make sense? And it has been so random...
I will continue to read with much interest.

[Bella]

@Laura: I don't think Moxie calling something illogical is making this space unsafe. We should all be able to throw out our views and have them challenged as well.

Spanking is always a divisive topic. I come from a culture that routinely uses spanking as a discipline strategy. Most people coming from that culture will vow that they weren't psychologically (or physically) damaged by the practice. I'm also a developmental psychologist -- and we've been trying to empirically and finally declare that spanking is harmful to children's development. The truth is, there is no good evidence for it (please don't make me review the evidence... in fact, in some cases, the evidence goes the opposite direction). But that's because spanking happens in different contexts, with varying degrees of harshness, with and without verbally abusive accompaniments, with different types of parents, in different types of cultures, at different levels of socio-economic hardship, for different purposes and with different ends.

Having said that, I wholeheartedly believe that hitting a child (however lightly) to teach them not to hit is completely illogical. It may be oddly effective, but illogical.

And don't imagine that logic and hypocracy can't be picked up by toddlers. These little buggers are SMART. My 2.5 years old, J, the other day grabbed a train from his brother with huge force and threw his brother into a wailing fit. This had been the 3rd time that morning. I walked over to J., reminded him that we never grab things from other people (and that we use words instead), and snapped the train away from him, returning it to his brother. J looks at me horrified and screamed: "NO GRABBING, MAMA!"

Busted, I was!

[shirky]

@Toni, that is Awesome!! I have been claiming that for years! I just KNEW it was true!

[hedra]

@Toni, one of the things I encourage is transition away from the close-in visceral reaction (hitting/biting/pinching) and toward calming activities before expressing the feeling and problem-solving.

I read similar research (maybe the same?) that showed that if you hit a pillow, you were more likely to be agressive toward others later the same day, where if you were coached to calm down and relax, you were less agressive later the same day.

However, I also know that the rage/anger/express-NOW feeling is pretty overwhelming at first, so starting with a single step away from the target (punch the pillow) and then teaching/backfilling the 'how to calm down, spot your trigger, de-escalate your mood' skills after that is a REALLY important step. Eventually you can get to where the anger-impulse reaction goes immediately from WANT TO, to CALMING MYSELF NOW.

I'm not entirely sure it is possible to extrapolate from childhood straight to the adult reaction. Being 'allowed' to be physical with the emotion has different import at the two ages, or at least it did for me. Strong empathy without dealing with the expression at all directly (other than general prevention) can work, but many kids flounder for the 'how to' - and I can recall very clearly being FURIOUS and hurt and angrier when I was told I didn't get to have a visceral reaction to a feeling, I was required to have a calm one, be nice, gentle touch, etc. Anything that really enables the feeling to be real, allowed, whole, and complete seems to be important as a starting point with kids, and some would say with adults. It *is* possible to have that without doing the 'hit this pillow' routine, but many parents skip that step and go right to 'gentle touches' instead of allowing enough time/space for the empathy for the feelings.

I think it was somewhere on here (maybe on my blog) that I wrote up the 'model how you calm yourself down when you're angry' - talk your way through it. This also works, but it is usually too wordy for kids the age indicated - but it works REALLY well around 3 or so. Just talk through any emotion your child is having trouble expressing safely/effectively. Whenever you feel that same feeling, make it clear that you feel it, and talk it out. "WOW, I'm mad, I am disappointed, too. I want to call her up and yell at her. I want to kick the wall, slam the door... but I'm not going to. I'm taking a breath. I'm taking another. I'm relaxing my hands. Now I'm calming down. Okay, now I can think about what happened. Did she mean to do that? Was she trying to be mean? Hmm, no she wasn't. It was a mistake. So I need to think a moment - how should I react? I will choose to be sympathetic. She maybe is having a bad day. I'll smile at her. I feel better now." (or whatever)

Definitely start modeling that process as soon as you can - the more I've done it, the less my kids think they're the only one who ever feels 'that way' (whatever way it is). Because if they get angry and want to hit, and I never do, then they are stuck with no tools - and don't even think I get angry or not AS angry, because I don't do what they would want to do. If that makes sense.

Okay, must run...

[Laura]

@Bella: you're right. If I was Neener I would have felt hurt and attacked by what I perceived as the tone of Moxie's reply. I would not have felt "safe" commenting again. But that doesn't necessarily make this space unsafe, generally speaking. Thanks for clarifying.

[caramama]

There are a lot of great tips! I will have to try some and expand on ones I've been trying. My 18 month old is hitting, throwing and biting a bit these days, and definitely laughing at the reactions/non-reactions. I really feel that her laughing is because she doesn't know how to handle the feelings she has. In a fiction book I read recently, a psychologist told a teen that emotions can get all mixed up so you can laugh when really you want to cry, and I think with this age range they don't know how to distinguish always.

It still drives me nuts and makes me so angry. But I just try to remember this, take deep breathes and removed myself when I can.

My instinctive reflex for when she is trying to hit me or the dog is to grab her arm and slightly squeeze. It's pure reaction, and I don't do it hard. I hope it's just enough to get her to focus on what she is doing. I hope that it's not in the same category as hand slapping. I honestly don't do it as any sort of punishment.

As for spanking... I was very rarely spanked as a child. I turned out wonderfully also, BUT there was no need to ever spank me. I could have been just as easily deterred or reprimanded in other ways that would have worked. I won't say I'm scarred, but I remember and I regret that they did it (even if they don't). My husband and I will never use spankings. We believe that there are other ways, the ways we want to model for our child. (I also clearly remember my parents basically using CIO on me when I was toddler-ish, and that really did traumatize me, although I know it doesn't for most.)

[caramama]

Hmmm. Let me add, that I'm not judging people who do use CIO or spankings. I think it's a personal parenting decision, and I'm not one to tell anyone what they should do. I'm just saying what happened to me, how I feel as an adult looking back on it, and what I intend to do for my children.

[nordiegirl]

You took the words right from my mouth! I'm full of empathy as I'm dealing with the same situations with my 2 year old son. I'm a little ashamed to admit that it makes me feel a lot better knowing that I'm not alone.

It's encouraging to know that people I respect have gone through it too. Thanks for all of the suggestions and the "been there, done thats". They've made me feel like I'm not such a loser afterall!

[ACJ]

I am always awed by the parents who are so good at choosing parenting strategies based on their kids needs. We are (so far) choosing not to spank because I learned as a one-time foster parent that my anger in response to non-compliance is out-of-control and if I give myself permission to hit, I may one day do much more damage than is safe or legal. S is choosing not to because spanking=closed fist punches in his house and he doesn't trust himself to not get there. I could probably write an essay about why it's wrong and ineffective but the truth is just that we scare ourselves and can't risk doing that kind of harm because of our own issues.

That said, I wonder too about not being allowed to be angry around our kids. If I always model calm, quiet, that's okay aren't I kind of lying. I have read hedra's stuff on modeling better frustration and it makes sense to me on one hand (especially since I hate other people's anger so much) but on the other hand, shouldn't children learn that they can provoke anger and that it is an ugly thing to live with and perhaps they can choose sometimes not to piss people off just because the outcome is so awful?

I honestly don't know what I think here, but I find myself quite conflicted reading some of these comments. I just this morning found myself feeling 'bad mom' because I raised my voice with my 15 month-old in front of another mother who looked a bit shocked. But why do I have to feel bad for communicating through tone of voice that said action is not okay? ohhh... i want to quit today.

[Moxie]

I don't know how saying that I think it's illogical makes it "not a safe space."

I am 100% sure that spanking is never good. As I'm sure that hot-saucing is never good, and any of the other physical punishments that teach kids that it's OK (and even good) for adults to violate their bodies.

I'm not judging *people* who spank. But I'd hope they'd start looking into better parenting strategies that aren't going to enforce blind obedience out of fear, and aren't going to make their kids learn that they can't enforce their own physical boundaries. There are tons of techniques out there that work really well, whether they're the things you grew up with or not. And, enu, just because all the other parents are jumping off the bridge, does that mean we should, too? ;-)

@Toni, that's super-interesting, and maybe we should ask for some volunteers to test the alternative. The chew toy worked like a charm for us (in a few days, as if by magic), but maybe part of that was that as he was chomping on it I'd joke with him that he was a dog. Maybe it was the distraction of the dog imagery that did it instead of the inanimate object to bite?

[hush]

My baby isn't even a year old yet, so it's disingenuous of me to be commenting on this topic. I'm not here to judge anyone - it's like many of us have said before - if you're an Ask Moxie reader, pretty much there's no way you could qualify as a "bad parent."

I'd just like to share my own perspective. My hope & goal for myself as a mom is that I won't become a spanker, BUT I'm not naive enough to think I won't be tempted when DS gets a little older and a little more willful, because I know that even if the spirit is willing, the flesh can be weak.

I was never spanked as a young child. However, my mom is a rageaholic who slapped me across the face a handful of times during my jr. high & high school years. The last time she hit me, I was about age 16, and I was so enraged that she'd hit me and called me some awful things, so I hit her back. I hit her so forcefully that it knocked her to the ground. After that incident, she never raised a hand to me again, and to this day pretends it never happened. Even now, I still feel a lot of shame & ambivalence about having actually hit my own mother, even though I was a child, even though she hit me first, it's a pain I live with everyday. I never want to put that kind of burden on my child.

The second reason I hope never to spank is because I once dated this wonderful, sexy guy - we had a lot of promiscuous fun together back in college. Not to get too blue with you all, but, ahem, he LOVED to be spanked. His parents were very good natured folks, who liked to tell these "whuppin" stories about his childhood just a little too often, and so in my mind I made some icky connections about something that I'm sure was innocent enough. But still.

Again, no judgments here. Parents have a wide latitude to choose the behavior they want to display in front of their kids, and I know we can continue to have a good healthy dialogue here despite our differences.

[Sharon aka Mommie Mentor]

It's a long one, sorry about that. Let me begin by saying whether or not you spank—this is still a safe space for parents, however, being safe doesn’t mean you don’t have an opinion. That’s what makes Moxie so good, she’s honest, safe and challenges all parents to really look at their views and “why” they feel they way they do.

And choosing NOT to spank doesn’t mean you’re safe from the desire to spank. For some parents spanking would never enter their minds, for others the instinct to hit is always present and they have to make a conscious choice each time not to hit.

Unfortunately, the stats Enu quoted are correct, 90% of parents do spank, and that takes us into murky waters. The question is why do parents still spank? The research is clear, toddlers and preschoolers look at everything parents do and say as a form of teaching. So what are you teaching when you spank?

No real learning has occurred with a spank. The child was not told, while still emotional and can relate to the event, what she’s supposed to do instead. All she knows is I misbehaved and I got hit. Or I got mad, hit Mom and she hit me back.

All toddlers and preschoolers understand that hitting is a NO, what they’re missing is the ability to think logically and connect the dots. The part of the brain that develops into cause and effect thinking, the part that gives a child the ability to connect action to consequence, that type of thinking doesn’t appear in the brain until age 7. So even though a toddler or preschooler knows that if they hit the dog they’ll get a timeout or be spanked, the fact that they know the end result doesn’t motivate them to stop themselves before they hit, not at all. They’re still in the repetitive stage of developmental and need to be taught, repeatedly in order to make up for the part of the brain that hasn’t developed yet.

The research is clear, just like adults the way you treat a child determines whether he fights with you or listens to you. Parent’s have learned that a child’s foundation, the core of who he is, is being built during early childhood. A child learns whether or not her emotions are accepted or punished. She learns whether self-control is managed for her, by spanking or consistent punishment or she learns, by how her parent deals with defiance, that ultimately, she needs to control herself.

Hedra is correct. Begin modeling and use yourself and your life to show children how “you” handle your own frustration. It is so key to begin putting words to a toddler and preschoolers emotions, but make sure you watch your expectations. You can find yourself doing all the good stuff and your child may still hit, that’s what I call “The Danger Zone”. The Danger Zone is the time that begins just after a parent starts a new parenting technique and extends until a child understands this new boundary is permanent. That’s the time when parents begin to think this new method isn’t working because the child is still reacting.
There’s no such thing as instant perfection after a correction, toddlers and preschoolers need repetition to learn.

Caroline hit the nail on the head when she said walk away. I just helped my niece with this exact issue. She has a 3 week old and a 2 year old. The 2 year old has begun to hit and is trying to grab the baby’s head as she’s nursing.

I taught her to make her statement of NO, and then go silent. Parents can then walk away or silently stand there, depending on your style. If needed, repeat the statement again, go silent. It works because you, your face, your body language all change after being hit. You go from being the loving sweet nurturing Mom to the clear boundary Mom and it’s a shock, my niece reports this works like magic.

Yes, you could make the statement that spanking sends a similar firm message and it does, but spanking also sends other messages too that teaching doesn’t. Spanking sends messages like, my feelings don’t matter; only my parent’s feelings matter.
And spanking leaves parents no other place to go when behavior gets bigger, and trust me misbehavior gets bigger and louder as they grow, even if you do all the beautiful things stated here, that’s life and human development.

Over the last 17 years of teaching parenting parents have said, “I spank because nothing else works as well.” So when I read the research that 90% of parents spank I wanted to create a way for parents who spank to make the shift, if they want too, from spanking to using another method that would produce the same clear results and would also teach a child everything they need to learn about their behavior while being respectful and announcing their feelings and allowing them to “try again”. Check out seminar #1 and #2 on my website.

To ACJ, I think it’s truthful to show feelings and go from your head—the theory of what you know you want to do, to the truth of how you feel. But you need to watch where your feelings take you. You’re dealing with toddlers and preschoolers who are forming their views about themselves. I think it’s about intensity, and the result of your anger. Don’t lie, be honest, but watch the intensity and where your anger takes you. Ask yourself am I expressing my anger at the preschool level or the adult level? Am I expressing myself so my child can learn that yes, adults get angry too and they have to control themselves, just like I’m asking you to control yourself or are you doing damage? That's the way to be honest about anger and still do no damage.

[Alma]

Haven't read the comments yet, probably not saying anything new here, but back in this stage my standard intervention was something like this: Get on her level, grab the hands/legs/arms gently and (trying for eye contact) say "You seem angry/frustrated. Hitting hurts. I'm not going to let you hurt me." Then I amplify the feeling part if I know what caused it. Like, "you're so frustrated the blocks won't stack the way you want. You want me and the blocks to know just how frustrated you are!" and then might suggest a more appropriate expression - like words!

Or, with dogs in particular, I adopted a great deal of concern toward the dog, less toward her. So it sounded sort of like this while I petted the dog gently "You hurt Dog. Dog are you okay? I heard you cry out. I'm so sorry that happened to you. It isn't okay for anyone to hurt you." Usually that resulted in the child coming to touch the dog gently and I was able to reiterate directly to her that Hitting hurts a dog and hitting isn't okay.

[rudyinparis]

Oh, how much I would prefer that today's topic be all about Hush's college sex life (which was clearly a lot more exciting than mine), instead of the difficult and divisive topic of spanking as discipline.

I send support to all the parents out there that have made mistakes and try to move forward and learn from them. And I'm going to send some of that support my way, too.

[Tzipporah]

Baby (2 last week) is doing this EXACT same thing. Very curious about animals, petting them, wanting to hold them, then suddenly stepping on/kicking/hitting them - and he was doing the same thing with the babies in the daycare until they moved him up to the bigger kids' room. Arg.

He doesn't seem "angry" at any of the objects of violence - more like he's just trying things out to see what happens (anyone see the "stirring up the fish" For Better or Worse comic today?).

I do know that he's finding himself balked in a lot od the things he wants to do, lately, being forced to put on a shirt, or go to bed, or leave the house in the morning when he wants to keep playing. So maybe he's just experimenting with what it feels like to be the "bigger" one with some physical power.

But yeah, the laughing makes me CRAZY!

[Tzipporah]

Man, hedra, can you come over to my house for a month??

[mo]

Interesting discussion today - I have a "laugher in the face of discipline" as well (actually have 2). Hardest part for me is that I don't know how to express my anger functionally. I've always surpressed it and if it becomes overwhelming I just get excessively frustrated and start crying. Since I don't know how to release/express my anger correctly, I'm sure having a heck of a time teaching my boys how to do so.

Also, I've found that I get sooo frustrated and start yelling at the boys and that definitely vamps them up - however, at that point I'm yelling because I feel like I've lost all control (which I have) of the situation. Yelling doesn't wind up helping the situation and we all wind up "losing" (crying, yelling more, etc.) Not sure where to go once things escalate so high - luckily spanking doesn't seem to come up as an option in my mind too often (most likely because I wasn't spanked when I was little). That said, I did lose it one time and smack one boy's read-end when I was at a complete loss - felt bad the rest of the day and just went to my room and cried.

rudyinparis - your comments the last couple of days have made me laugh (thanks!) - you've seemed extra spunky lately. Love it.

[ada]

good comments. Since my DS just turned 1, we haven't reached these issues...yet. So we haven't even considered whether to spank or not. This is a good wake-up call to discuss with DH before things happen. I'd like to *not* spank. Because I would like to teach my son a better way to deal with anger.

Like Mo says, I don't deal well with my anger. I have a quick temper and deal with it by YELLING and criticizing and jsut being plain nasty. And I have been known to strike out. I'm not proud of it. So it sounds like I need to practice on myself, like Hedra says, and in doing so, will model good behavior to my son.

[anonstartingnow]

i feel very similarly to laura. i'm a bit scared off of commenting by moxie's admonishment(s), and i suppose that's what laura meant by "not a safe space." i don't think the spanking issue is as cut and dry as all that, though personally i've never spanked and hope i have the strength to continue to keep my house spank-free. the CIO analogy was a good one. i'm feeling really once bitten, twice shy over here and i wasn't even the one bitten, but most of you guys seem totally relaxed about it so maybe it's just me.

[Jen]

I guess I REALLY don't get how hitting your kid is supp'd to teach them not to hit others. I am def not saying people who spank are bad people but I also don't think the fact that 90% (or whatever the number is)of parents spank means it is ok or right. It only means that it is socially acceptable on some level to a great many people. I guess I am not in that group.

[Sharon aka Mommie Mentor]

What is CIO? Could someone please tell me. Thanks.