Q&A: pooping in her sleep

Carole writes:

"Is there any way I can engineer my 9 1/2 month old baby's diet to reduce the likelihood of us waking up to her in a messy diaper?

We sleep trained her about a month ago (and it's AMAZING, happy happy girl she is now that she's well rested), and have her on a pretty solid schedule, but when we go in to her at 7am she's been poopy for the last three mornings.  She generally poops twice a day.

I breastfeed her at 7pm, 7am and 1am.  She gets formula at 2:30 when I'm at work, breastmilk when I'm home.  She's a big eater, and loves everything, curry, mildly spiced thai food, fish, tofu, whatever we're having for dinner.  Should I make her evening meal more grains and less meat or fiber?  Are there any suggestions for helping avoid making her sit in poop?  (Other than going in to her every time she wakes up and cries for a minute?  She's usually back asleep again within 5 minutes.)"

See, this is yet another situation in which my Trained Monkey Assistants would come in handy. (I've had this idea for years that I should open a ranch where we train monkeys to do things for tired parents like pop back in dropped pacifiers in the middle of the night, wash out sippy cups of milk, match baby socks, etc. Changing middle-of-the-night poop diapers would be a great job for the TMA. Then my friend who actually works in primate research had to shatter my dream by telling me she thinks monkeys would mostly be ill-suited for this job temperament-wise. Easy come, easy go, I guess.)

I think you have two options: 1) Experiment with stuffing her full of binding foods (like rice and Veggie Booty) a few hours before bed, or 2) Wait it out until her pooping pattern changes on its own.

Feeding her binding foods could do the trick, or it could have no effect whatsoever. There's really no way to tell. And I guess it's also possible that you could end up going too far and constipating her for a day or two until you work the balance back out. But, if you are the kind of person who likes to be actively working on a problem, then you might as well try it and see what happens.

The real truth is that it's going to stop eventually, because as her eating and movement changes her pooping is going to change, too. So you could just cut to the chase and wait it out. If you're feeling particularly tired or worn out, that's certainly going to be the best option. But if you want to work on the problem, try messing around with her food, and it may ease things more quickly, or eventually she'll just stop pooping at night on her own.

If she were older, I'd tell you to teach her to yell out "poop"or some special sign when she's actually pooped, so you'd know it was that and not just that little night-waking thing some kids do. At this age, she could probably learn a hand sign for poop, but that doesn't help any of you in the middle of the night.

Any suggestions to help Carole get to her daughter when she's pooped, without having to go in for every little peep? Did anyone else go through a night-time pooping stage with a baby this old?

Comments

[Ashramama]

Is it definitely nighttime pooping? Carole mentioned that she finds a full diaper at 7am. My son quite often will do one just as he wakes up, or a few minutes after. I know this because we share a room and I hear him do it! As the first thing we do in the mornings is a diaper change, then he's only in it as long as it takes me to stumble out of bed! Maybe Carole's daughter is the same? I guess the only way to find out is to be there when she wakes up. Just a thought...

[Shanna]

My son (now almost 19 months) went through several phases like this. We would try to do a sniff test every time he woke overnight, but even then we'd often miss it (I have a crappy sense of smell, and my husband can't really be described as "awake" during these hours). The methods and length of time it took him to go back to sleep didn't seem to vary based on diaper contents. So: poopy diaper almost every morning, often all squished up everywhere and with the red tush telling us he'd been in it for a while. We just tried to make sure he was changed as early as possible, and I would try to give him some diaper-free time to combat the redness.

He still often (maybe half the time?) wakes up with a dirty diaper, but now it seems like he's pooping after waking (though still not complaining about it - that kid could poop in the middle of the day and walk around like that for half an hour, and unless you smell him or take a peek, you'd never know).

[heather]

I suspect from the question that Carole's daughter poops sometime between the 1am nursing and 7am nursing/waking. Based on this, my suggestion is to watch what you (Carole) eat & drink after the 7pm nursing. I found if I drank coffee (decaf or regular) or ate something high in fiber before nursing, my daughter was guaranteed to poop shortly thereafter.

Also, you could try checking on your daughter a few times during the night (between the 1am and 7am feedings) to see when the pooping actually happens. Perhaps she doesn't poop until 06:50, in which case it might not be worth the trouble of playing with her meals or your post-7pm food & drink.

[Kate]

My son went through a stage of pooping at night when he was around six months old. Really in the middle of the night, like 3 or 4 in the morning. I cannot remember if it was before or after we introduced solids.

It was beyond exhausting because it required a lot more functioning than just rolling over and lifting my shirt. But he was fine otherwise and it went away in a few weeks.

LOL, I thought I had written to Moxie about it but I searched my gmail archives and came up empty. Probably we groused about it and just waited.

We're also waiting for his poop to become more solid and "toddlerish"--he's over 2. I talk about it with his pediatrician at every appointment, but he seems totally fine (no gastric distress, ever!). I keep considering an elimination diet (dairy or wheat) for him, but it would cause so much tension in my house between him and my 4 year old I haven't done it.

Eh, maybe it's because of still nursing. Reassess after weaning, I suppose.

[Rebecca]

I have to second @Ashramama. My 22mo dd has been a morning pooper for at least a year now, and if we get her the instant she wakes up, we often find only a wet diaper (just waiting to be filled at breakfast!), but if we wait until she's done chatting with herself and playing, and she actually asks for us, there is often a poopy diaper. I'd guess that if she's not getting a rash, it probably hasn't been there overnight.

[jennyG]

My $.02 - wait it out. If it doesn't bother her, don't let it bother you. Around the same age, my daughter (now 12 mos) always woke w/a pooper, but she never stirred much after she was down for the night so I never knew how "fresh" it was. I sprinkled corn-starch powder in her diaper before bed and she never had bad rashes, so I didn't worry.
Her "elimination schedule" shifted as we introduced more solids, and now she just goes whenever (sometimes 4x day, might I add - the girl loves her fruit) but never over night. Amazing how their little bodies work - change is the only constant!

[z]

My son went through a phase similar to this but like others have mentioned, for him it was right as he woke up. I think the redness of the butt is what we looked at to decipher whether he had been in it for a while or not.
If I remember correctly (and my memory is fuzzy) it lasted maybe a week or 2. We just made sure we aquaphored his butt at ever diaper change, gave him diaper free time and not give him anything that induced poop for sure at night.

[hedra]

When we hit a phase like that, we slathered the baby butt with ointment every night, so there was at least some kind of barrier to keep rashiness down, and then ignored it and it went away. Ours was mainly 'toward morning' pooping, also. I actually had an easier time smelling the post-poop ointment reek than poop odor (my kids would stealth-poop).

@Kate, nursing can definitely mean softer stools than 'normal formed' but so can other things. If there isn't any mucous present, then likely it is just a matter of balancing the fructose/fructans/polyols during the 'under 3' stage (digestive function for fructose is low until around 3), so you've got time for it to even out. Just leaning a little more on rice and potatoes and less on wheat, plus keeping an eye on how much apple, pear, and pit fruits are consumed (in any form - try more froz concentrated OJ, and/or white grape), should help if it's just the normal dip in function. (Only half of people with fructose issues have GI symptoms, so no GI trouble doesn't mean as much as you'd think.)

[Aaron]

I would suggest waiting it out too. If she is getting a red bottom add Baking Soda to her bath water. It seems to help rid a mild diaper rash. E used to poop at night too (don't remember what age), now (13 1/2 mo) she poops in the morning usually after breakfast.

[rudyinparis]

Note to self: stop checking Moxie while eating breakfast.

Helper monkeys!!!!

[SarcastiCarrie]

Kate - With no change in diet, the consistency of poop will change when it goes in the potty versus the diaper. I suppose the poop doesn't actually change but not being squished in a diaper means it holds its shape in the potty so it looks more adult. I always thought there was a looseness about the diaper-wearing toddler poop but I think it's just that it gets squished.

Carole - As long as there is no rash, I would just let her sit in her poop until morning. If it's not upsetting her, I don't see a problem. But I am a lazy mom like that. Good diaper cream and maybe a sleep sack to prevent messy poopsplosions onto the sheets (or a sheet saver). Sleep is precious, get more.

[epeepunk]

Moxie,

What you need are Robot Monkey Butlers (tm) which avoid the issues involved in primate modification training. And for a small fee, you can upgrade to Flying Robot Monkey Butlers (tm), although they tend to be alarming to Kansas girls and dogs. And scarecrows. :)

I've got nothing on the poop.

[hedra]

I *thought* the monkey thing sounded familiar... we've got such plans for the Robot Monkey Butlers (tm)...

@SarcastiCarrie, you're right on the squish vs non-squish pooping, too. Even pretty loose stools stick together better in the potty than in the pants. I just like to toss the 'fructose-issue diet tweak' out there when people start talking elimination diet - that's usually a sign that they're already at the margin of 'I don't think this is right'.

And for the record, G's poop actually got WORSE for about two months post-weaning, I think as his body adjusted to the lack of IgA protecting his body from reactions (it coats the lining of the gut), but then shifted toward normal. So don't panic right off if it doesn't improve instantly or goes a little haywire on the transition. (Our doc said 'give it a couple of months to see which direction it is headed' - and he was right.)

[hush]

Just curious about the first part of the question: what does it mean to have "sleep trained" your baby? Are we talking strict bedtime & routine, nap schedule, sleep in own crib/own room, but nurse on demand at night?

Could this is be at all relevant to the parent's poop issue? Like, "We can train to sleep, can't we train not to poop?"

What I'm about to say is not directed at the parent here. For those of us who do crave a measure of predictability & control over their kids, I just think we have to be very careful with the emotional vibes we give off towards our kids when they void. Are we irritated? Displeased? Disappointed? Or do we take it in stride - everybody poops? Whatever that vibe is, they can pick up on it. We're teaching them what's "dirty." If mom is showing that she's unhappy about baby's poopy diaper, does that mean baby's body is dirty, too?

Since the causes of dysfunctional voiding in children are still unknown, my advice is to try to remain as emotionally neutral about your child's voiding as you possibly can. Can you simply live with not being able to control your child's voiding as much as you'd like to? Can you find it in yourself to just let it be?

[rudyinparis]

I'm cool with poop, as long as it's not being thrown at me by a monkey.

[mo]

Prekids, I never would have thought how much my life revolved around poop schedules. A good nap can be so thrown off by a poop happening in the middle of it (nap cut short at that point). A good poop just before nap can mean a great nap, longer and for some reason easier for them to go to sleep... My boys are 3 and I am still so in tune to the poop schedule (and as many mentioned it seems to keep changing, at least for one of my boys).

My only suggestions are 1) put a barrier on the child's butt before they go to sleep - something like vaseline/Desitin, etc. That way if they do poop, doesn't irritate them so much if they sleep in it for an hour or so. 2) maybe you can adjust the child's diet less so at night to make it more bound up but focus more on the afternoon food to encourage an earlier poop. Maybe give a fiborous/fruity snack before dinner.

Also agree though that it will shift naturally over time too if you can wait it out and let it run its course.

[Ashramama]

@ Hush, interesting point! Although I took it from Carole's question that she was more concerned with the possible implications of sitting in poop for an extended period of time (i.e. rash, although not specifically mentioned).

[Charisse]

Just commenting to say we had the same thing a couple of times, and it passed after a few weeks. If she doesn't seem upset, I'd probably try to wait it out.

[beate]

Like hush, I wonder what exactly it means to "sleep-train" a 9.5 month old child and have a regular wake-up time of 7 am. Unlike hush, I don't see anything "dysfunctional" in a child's voiding in the morning. My inclination would be to scrap the fixed check-in times and treat the child like a person with needs that cannot be fully controlled, but call for a response when they occur. Thus, I would prioritize responsiveness over fixed bedtimes. How many grownups are capable of voiding solely when it's convenient for other people?

[hedra]

@hush, we had the whole hiding-to-poop thing, and the research-based recommendation is going from neutral to WOO! POOP! celebrations of every blessed poop, no matter where, when, or how foul. It did definitely help. But boy, with some of the swamp-poop, it was a hard deal (my kids - either stealth poop or swamp-muck, and not much in-between...). Even a wrinkled nose over odor was noted to be a problem for kids who already have a bad experience with poop from their side (rashes, sudden urgency, burns, cramps, constipation, etc.).

[Shandra]

It has never occurred to me to try to control poop, so no advice from me about how to do it.

My son went through this phase though (he pooed around 4:30 am) and it would wake him up for the day. It only lasted a few weeks. In other words, this too shall pass. :)

[ACJ]

"Can you simply live with not being able to control your child's voiding as much as you'd like to?"

Is it wrong that this made me laugh out loud? I know the answer is supposed to be 'yes', but parenting for me this last year has been all about learning that while pooping isn't my particular issue, my answer to that question in most areas is usually, "no, I don't think I can live with that". And then having to learn that in fact, I have to. I repeat (hedra's?) phrase, "cooperation, not compliance" 70 times a day, but could probably substitute 'control' for compliance.

This week it's trying to bottle wean at bedtime and realizing that she really is the boss of her and I can make changes to her routines and habits but I sure can't make her like them (she laughed OUT LOUD at water in her bottle at bedtime... laughed). So then I get to choose between bottle rot or a few nights of annoyed T. while I change a habit that I let happen (I swear it was an accident when she dropped her morning nap!).

Anyway, I applaud the mothers who can live with not being in control. I suspect that it will be the theme for me for a long time to come.

[hedra]

@ACJ, that one belongs to a lot of folks, I think! But yes, epeepunk and I have both mentioned it here, I think. (and in the Montessori in the Home pdf)

And it's still one of my constant issues.

Fortunately, not with poop. I think that having anything go catastrophically haywire helps make everything below that level into a non-issue. I don't care where, when, or how my kids poop, so long as the poop doesn't cause their skin to blister and peel off everywhere it touched (or lead to secondary issues like growth failure, though that's more on the 'intake' side of the issue), ya know? Maybe that's one reason why I'm not all that bothered by timing of potty training.

I do worry about them sitting in the poop for long (hence the barrier application). But that's more about timing of change, not timing of elimination - that is, if they poop before wakeup regularly, and it is a problem for them, I get up earlier to handle it until it stops being a problem or stops happening. Which probably speaks to the 'choosing the timing of the elimination' vs 'allowing the timing of the elimination' thing.

Which brings up the question that isn't clear from the original message - whose problem is this? Is it a rash issue that is therefore a problem for the child but the child cannot manage it? Or is it a problem for the parent due to just WORRYING about the rash issue? Or is it an annoyance for the parent due to timing? My assumption was that it was the first two - mom worries about baby sitting in poop, baby may actually have problems from sitting in poop, how to resolve both? For me, it was definitely 'barrier cream and pay attention to timing of change' - I can change the texture/consistency of poop (to some degree) by changing the diet, and I can change the timing of my response, but the actual event timing remains theirs. I'd rather give them more control of that than take on any of it for myself! And for kids the control comes with age, and 9.5 months isn't even close (communicate, yes - control, no).

[Sherry]

My girl will not, will not, will not sleep with a dirty diaper (nor would I want her to, of course). She often poops right after we've put her in bed or first thing in the morning. If she cries hard for more than a few minutes after I put her to bed, I usually will go in and check her diaper. If she cries fretfully (not hard) but keeps crying for 15 or 20 minutes, I'll go in and check. She quite often has a dirty diaper and I feel guilty for having let her cry. I agree with others, if there's no rash, your baby is probably pooping first thing in the morning, so there's nothing to worry about! (Now she's 15 months, and we're working on a signal so she can let me know she's pooped. I like the idea of yelling "poop." I told her to yell, "Momma, uh oh," and she's done that a couple of times, but "poop" is less "judgmental."

[caramama]

We've been through this phase at least once, maybe twice, but it's all fuzzy in the mind of the sleep deprived. I know that our girl can get gassy and have trouble going to sleep and staying asleep when things are, um, stewing in there.

So something we tried starting around the same time (10 months old, give or take) was to sit our girl on the potty after dinner which is before her bath which is right before bedtime. If she has to poop, sitting on the Baby Bjorn potty or a kid's seat on top of the big potty seems to help her poop come out.

In the mindset of elimination communication, there is no pressure for her to go from us (internal pressure might be a different story, hehe), but just an opportunity to go. And we discovered that there is something about that position that really helps her. So if she's ever struggling to go, we just run her up to the potty and it usually comes right out. Plus, much easier to clean her bottom when the poop doesn't get smushed all on her butt cheeks.

So that's something to try, if you wanted. But I really think it's another one of those things that is just a phase and will change.

@rudyinparis - I was going to make a monkey-flinging poop reference as well! hehe.

[hush]

@heate (re-@12:28) - "Unlike hush, I don't see anything 'dysfunctional' in a child's voiding in the morning." We are in total agreement! Yes, the behavior of Carole's 9.5 month old baby is certainly NOT dysfunctional voiding!

By definition, babies can never fall into this category - for a diagnosis of "dysfunctional voiding" a child must be at least 4 years of age and have been toilet trained. Generally, voiding is considered to be "dysfunctional" in developmentally normal children aged 4 years or older who display an abnormal pattern of elimination of unknown cause, characterized by both urine and stool and by bladder and bowel incontinence, occurring in previously toilet-trained children without anatomic or neurologic abnormalities.

Please forgive my poor editing (@11:43am) & allow me to clarify. The first sentence of my 3rd paragraph was "What I'm about to say is not directed at the parent here." I should have written instead: "The REST of what I am about to say is not directed at Carole," and then I should have merged the last 2 paragraphs together.

hedra's solution (@12:31) for the (toddler?) hiding to poop is fantastic.

[Keri]

Like other posters, I do wonder if this could be a "top o' the morning to ye" poop. My daughter has a tendency to poop within the first half hour of waking just about every day. Perhaps your daughter is up earlier than you realize?

I am going to disagree with Moxie about feeding your kid binding foods, simply because constipation can be a pain to deal with and, if it gets bad enough, fairly traumatic for the child.

If you feel like you must do something, t I would try some hybrid of EC and potty learning.

I am working my way through Early-Start Potty Training, which covers traditional potty learning and EC. One of the arguments the author makes is that potty learning makes many children more continent, so I would think it worth a shot. (Now all you moms with little ones out of diapers feel free to laugh at me.)

Also, I would not let a kid sit in a poopy diaper for two reasons (1) health and (2) I would think that ignoring the feeling of poop in their diapers might make potty training even more of a bear later on.

Hope this helps!

[hedra]

@hush, I think he was about 2 yrs old when I realized he was hiding to poop, so 'toddler-to-preschool-ish'. The advice I gathered was that once they're sensitive to the idea of 'poop under specific condition is bad' they may become hypersensitive to the idea that 'any poop is bad'. All poop must therefore be welcomed with open, um, arms (or something), until such time as they no longer feel ashamed/worried/afraid when they poop.

And is it bad that you had to specify the time of my post to identify which one? :wince: I think I need to get back to work...

[ada]

I LOVE it when I find a poopy diaper first thing in the morning. I don't love the changing part of it, but I love the fact that my son has already pooped. We sing a song in fact "BIG poop in the morning" along the lines of those old southern river boat songs.

It took us awhile to figure out that he will poop first thing in the morning, but only if we leave him alone when we first hear him. If we give him about 10 minutes to do his business, we have success, and therefore a great start to the day. If we go into his room before he's pooped, its anybody's guess when the next poop will be.

So roll with it. If the poop is not causing a rash, don't stress out about it. If its not causing your baby distress, don't worry. Count yourself lucky that you've got a baby that is sleeping well. And pooping regularily too.

And am I the only one who read 7am and thought "wow, that is really late for a kid to wake-up!"

[anon]

There seems to be a negative connotation to sleep training - I fully support sleep training, especially for a 9 1/2 month old child. Just my ten cents and support for Carole's decision to go that route.

[Marcy]

I didn't read this question as a need to control pooping, but wanting your kid not to sit in a poopy diaper for hours at a time if that could be avoided.

I also will speak up about the sleep training bit, as it seems people in comments are mentioning this as a negative ("how dare you want to control your child?!?")but as Carole herself said, her kid is much happier from getting better sleep and I don't see how that can be a bad thing (my guess is she means teaching her kid to learn to fall asleep on her own so as not to be dependent on mom and dad, and therefore have the freedom to sleep better and more easily). There's also the question of how much better mom feels when she's also getting more sleep, and thus is better able to function and be positive around her kid. ; )

As for the pooping thing, I've gotten into a habit of always putting some diaper cream on my son's butt at bedtime in case of middle-of-the-night pooping.

[eep]

I see a lot of suggestions of using a barrier cream at bedtime. I slather some diaper cream on the baby bum at most every diaper change. In the first place, if I don't do it every time I am likely to forget to do it when I need to, say at bedtime. But also I figured it was easier to avoid a rash than treat one. But really, that implies that I thought about the issue, and I didn't. I just started putting diaper cream on all of the time because that is what I thought one did. Is that bad? Does zinc oxide cause some horrible cancer that I haven't heard about? Will it dissolve my son's bottom skin? Have I created a situation where he will be diaper cream resistant and so when he does get a diaper rash I will have a really hard time treating it?

Joking aside, if the poop isn't bothering the kid I wouldn't worry too much about it. It is quite possibly a morning poop and hasn't been around for too long. We should all be so regular!

[hush]

"And is it bad that you had to specify the time of my post to identify which one?"

No! I love your posts, hedra! Please keep them coming. I learn so much from you - sometimes I remember these great ideas and I'm like "where did I first hear that? Oh yes, from hedra!" I'm always impressed by how articulate you are at a moment's notice, while parenting 4 kids & working. Amazing! ;)

I hope I didn't scare anyone by bringing up dysfunctional voiding. Work exposes me to this stuff - once helped a 6 year old's family deal with their issue. His parents were anxious, highly-regimented types. When he was a toddler, they once awoke to him having smeared poop all over his crib, as normal kids are wont to do. Mother reacted by having an emotional meltdown in front of him. From age 2 to 3.5, his parents decided to make it so that he couldn't take off his soiled diapers himself. Can't be sure this "caused" the problem but they ultimately believed it did, and I'm sure it did not help. These are not "bad" parents, by the way! They just didn't start off making the healthiest choices for their family. Now they know, and they have successfully addressed it.

My point is, no one expects you to love poop (!), but if you tend to react with very negative emotions around your child's voiding, it makes sense to find out why & find out how you can turn down the emotional volume on it, OR better yet, turn it into a positive for the child.

[anon]

@Marcy - where did you read that quote from the comments you referenced "how dare you want to control your child?!?"

Sure, parents can sometimes be too controlling. Or not controlling enough.

Sleep training is a separate issue, and I think it's inclusion in the question may have mixed things up for people. The post wasn't clear about what it meant, and some of the comments were people wondering what it meant

[Amy]

Oh no! I was just telling someone how non-judgmental we all are here. (A friend of mine reads a mommy blog where the commenters threaten to call Child Protective Services on each other!)

Let's not get bogged down in a battle over "sleep training" or "poop training" (which wasn't how I read the question either). Remember Moxie's motto: "By any means necessary." And Hedra's: "Safe, Respectful, Kind".

I think Carole is worried that if the baby is pooping in the middle of the night and then only whimpering about it (or not crying at all) that she'll end up with a nasty rash. That's a fair worry, right? So, should Carole go in with every whimper? If she nurses at night, she's clearly willing to give up sleep for her baby. But should she go in every hour until she works out when the poop is occurring, and then set her alarm? Or should she just let the baby be if there's no rash?

My vote: continue doing whatever you are doing at night that works for your family, slather on the hiney cream, and change her first thing in the morning.

[hush]

@Amy, was your comment in fact directed at me? Since I was the one who first brought it up, I actually feel kind of judged by your comment (@4:23). For the record, I was just wondering what "sleep training" actually means in this context & what it has to do with pooping, etc. I respect everyone with the balls to write to Moxie & post here. I meant no offense & believe me, I'm a slacker mom in no position to "judge" anyone but myself.

Sheesh. So "sleep training" is the new loaded phrase I have to worry about using incorrectly, huh? I know I have to work on not sounding so judgmental.

[Moxie]

OK, I didn't check here all day, but did get an email from someone asking what "sleep training" means! Ha. It reminded me of having a conversation with someone 10 years younger than me which included the phrase "hook up." and seeing how it meant something totally different to me than it did to her.

Maybe it's one of those "I know it when I see it" things...

FWIW, I think if your child likes the sleep training (meaning it works quickly and helps get them into a process of going to sleep faster/better) then it's great. My problem with sleep training (in all its forms) is that it's touted as the cure-all for every kid, and that's just bull. It makes things worse for some kids, and waaaay worse for the parents of those kids who then feel like failures. Which is even worse on top of a waking child than just dealing with the waking child would be.

Also, I think sleep training probably works better before or after the 8-9-month sleep regression, not in the middle of it.

Signed, Mom of one kid who was not sleep-trainable so I never tried, and another who trained me to let him cry to tap off every night before falling asleep.

P.S. You people are funny.

[hedra]

@hush, I think your professional distress leaked out, and that colored the statements accordingly - but without enough detail for people to understand what degree you were talking about. Clarified now, though!

I need a margarita. Anyone else? With salt, please.

[Amy]

@Hush, et al--BIG clarification!

I think I must have misunderstood your point, Hush, for it sounded judgmental towards Carole (in a "Wow, this mom got her kid on a sleep schedule/going to sleep by herself and now wants to get her on a poop schedule as well!" kind of way) and then others seemed to be jumping on the bandwagon. My sincere apologies for taking it the wrong way. I did not mean to be judgmental in my own comment.

I love this place and I love the parents here. I would never purposely offend anyone here. I've spent the past 4 days watching the most bizarre blog hoax unfold (dying girl in ICU turns out not to even be sick, etc), and it's made me kind of jumpy in terms of the internet.

FWIW, I read Carole's comment as saying she had used CIO (hence the "sleep training"), and now didn't know whether the crying would be simple waking that she should ignore (a la Ferber/Weissbluth) or to which she should respond b/c the tears might be due to a poopy diaper. If she could stop the nighttime poopy, she wouldn't have to lay awake worrying about whether or not baby was crying due to a poopy.

FWIW#2, I'm with Moxie on "sleep training". #2 sleep-trained herself. #1 flat out refused to be "sleep trained" in any of its forms. #3 falls somewhere in the middle and our methods are in flux as he goes through phases and stages faster than lightening.

Again, I'm so, so sorry if I offended. I completely misunderstood you.

[hush]

Amy, no worries! You're right - I sounded judgmental. Round of margaritas for all!

[pnuts mama]

can i just say that now that we're on baby #2 i realize how much i've needed to relax my control issues by necessity? example: i used to write down every blessed feeding (time and length of time) and pee/poop (always changed with a feeding). now, granted, since the pnut was early and tiny and i was told to log it all in the beginning i can use that as an excuse- but maybe not so much for the 16 months i did it!!

this poor baby bean, when he cries he gets a boob and/or a change until he stops the crying. or not. i've woken up the past three mornings with his diaper loaded and leaking a gigantic mess of poo- am i terrible that the fact that it's all over his jammies is more worrisome to me than the fact that he was sitting in it for more than a few minutes? ah well.

now someone tell me how to get my 3 year old to *want* to do anything in the potty- she is purposely holding pee and poop til she gets her diaper for nap/nighttime! i asked her why she doesn't want to go in the potty- she finally said yesterday that it is because it's "different" (oh my god she is so my child)- how long do i not press this before they call CPS on my ass? (the case report reads: "child not toilet trained")...

[Lyn Lewis]

You've got to try elimination communication methods. They're great at getting the baby to communicate that she needs to go and you can do it part-time with disposable diapers. There are lots of wonderful books on the subject, but my favourite is The Diaper Free Baby by Christine Gross-Loh. I've been using the method since my 10 month old daughter was 7 months old and I have "caught" dozens of poos. My daughter is now making a special sound when she needs to go (like a grunting sound). It's so neat to see that we don't need to wait until a child is 2 plus to teach them about elimination. Babies are so smart.

[hedra]

@pnutsmama, I think 4.5 is the normal outer limit for potty training. My nephew JUST succeeded in potty training at 4y 2m, and it wasn't that he didn't have control, it was that a) he preferred to use the pullup, and b) he retained power by retaining choice over where, and c) he may have had some issues with distress/annoyance/frustration (possibly from my mom?) or even just the very slight (and somewhat bemused/amused) long-sufferingness his parents expressed. My mom ended up doing the three-day no pants routine, and getting totally in there with him on him not wanting to use it, being angry, resistant, etc., reflecting his feelings with an extra helping of drama ('you REALLY don't want to use the potty, you're so ANNOYED, ANGRY! FRUSTRATED! You want it to be YOUR choice, YOUR way, you DO! I hear you! ANGRY! ANNOYED! FRUSTRATED! MY CHOICE!') and it worked. He needed to not just be heard, but for the entire process to be *all about* him being heard. No distractions, every bit of focus on him being heard, total centrality, the universe-revolves-around-my-problem. And really, it wasn't a huge deal for him, he wasn't even all that angry or frustrated, but just wanted to be sure he was heard, I think. Once he was heard, it was 'oh. Okay. Potty!' :shrug:

So, take heart. Yes, 'over 4' starts being a question mark, but the normal range goes up to 4.5 (typically the serious poop withholders/hiders tend to train between 4 and 4.5, where the non-withholders/hiders train between 2.5 and 3.5, with some range of the in-between kids going to around 4 - at least that's the numbers from memory. I recall the research speculation was that at 4, there's a change in the emotional processing that allows them to 'let go' of some of the personal issues regarding the process, so it is just easier for them to learn at that point.) Any chance you can make a game of it? M liked to, um, look for poop pictures (like looking for pictures in clouds). :wince: whatever works, yes?

[Shelley]

Hedra, POOP PICTURES? I'm laughing so hard I have tears in my eyes. And I needed a good laugh. Thanks.

Pnuts mama, mine was super-resistant to potty training, so my mom swooped in, and we went to an amusement park. We explained to my 3.5-y-o that we would only go back, and in fact fun things would only happen, if she tried to go in the potty. We didn't punish her in any way, just didn't do fun outings. And when she successfully produced something, she got :blush: a couple M&Ms. It took about a week and she was DONE. Well, one single time we were at the playground, she ran up to me, looked me in the eye, and crapped her pull-up -- we went right home. That was the end of that, and then she night-time trained herself about a month later.

[Charisse]

@pnuts mama, intense girl child, right? She might be ripe for the bowl-o-surprise-presents thing that worked so well for Mouse, who was behaving similarly around that age. If you're interested, email me--I feel like I've posted it a couple times so it might be boring for the list. Also, we had a couple great books, one called "where's the poop" I believe, that covered baby animals all pooping in the appropriate places, with flaps to find it. (I know...)

[electriclady]

Nothing much constructive to add here, except to agree that everything poop-related will change and the OP's baby's poop situation will probably be completely different in a month. And that as soon as baby learns to say poop, may she NOT be like my kid, who has learned that "Poop!" makes mom and dad come running, so she sings out "Mommy! Poop!" first thing in the morning when she's bored in her crib (and has NOT pooped) and Mommy just wants to get a few more minutes of sleep...

[Kate]

Pictures of poop were a break through for my son.

I know... :wince:

But looking at the Bristol Stool scale (yes, there is such a thing) helped DS identify what kind of poop he'd had, and get really, really interested in seeing it.

And you can only really see the fully-formed poops :drum roll: IN THE POTTY.

[Jonathon-mirza]

the same thing happens to me i offten wake up with a messy diaper, as an Adult Baby, (nothing to do with pedophilia), i only really have the late afternoon, eavning and nights, to be 2 years old again. (Please i dont need any hater comments, or anyone calling me sick or pervet, i lived with this for 8 years and in all that time guilt, and shame, and secrecy have been a constant companion. In the USA alone there are 6 million of us. And more in other parts of the world.) Its just emotional for me, i just feel safe, secure, loved, comfortable when im in my diapers, drinking my SMA First milk from my bottle, sucking on my pacifier (dummy), and cuddiling with my soft toys: lou lou, tiger, star and blankie.
I wuv me toys

[Nike Air Max 2009]

Life is the best state is quiet, rich: He is quiet FuLi from outside, Because the temptation of rich inner spirit of the world with a treasure.

[air griffey max]

Lord Francis Bacon,(1561-1626) the father of experimental philosophy, whose father had been Lord Keeper, and himself was a great many years Lord Chancellor under King James I.