More on single parenting

Can we explore a little more the idea a lot of you brought up in the post about looking for resources on becoming a single mom? The idea that parenting without a partner is hard, but parenting with a partner who's actually causing more work for you is even harder.

There's a ton of drudgery involved in being a parent. But I've always thought the tough part of being a parent is the emotional part, carrying all that weight of another person or people, having to be thinking about them before you think about yourself. How many pieces of bread do I have left? Enough for everyone to have sandwiches for school? How many hours of sleep can I possibly get before the baby wakes up again and needs to eat? My child keeps hitting the dog--am I somehow not teaching her moral values?

And I don't even think that that stuff is the stuff you guys call being The Great and Mighty Oz* like thinking three steps ahead on everything from developmental milestones to doctors appointments to buying shoes in the next size up.

I know that when you don't feel like things are right in your relationship, everything else is more difficult. When you are happy with who you are, even if things aren't easy, they're doable. I've also discovered that it's much easier to ask for and get help by myself than it was when I had a partner. And since waking up in the morning is easier, everything is easier.

Personally, I think if you want to be a parent, you need to be a parent. And that being a parent is going to expose the cracks in any relationship. And that you can do it, no matter what it is you need to do. Put all those things together, and I'm not sure what you get.

What do you guys think?

* I've always called that "being Mr. Zero" from the movie When Harry Met Sally:
Bruno Kirby: You're saying Mr. Zero knew you were getting a divorce a week before you did?
Billy Crystal: Mr. Zero knew.

Comments

[Shannon]

The other day I felt so stressed out, and I was beating myself up because, really, I didn't DESERVE to be stressed out. I have a job with reasonable hours, I'm married, financially stable, have a roof over my head, a cleaning person, and I only have ONE child, for crying out loud. But it occurred to me that a huge amount of stress comes from having to be there for another person. The main stressor isn't some concrete thing you can put your finger on, like always having to feed the child or clothe the child. It's just sort of this ever-present need to be "on" all the time for your kid(s). The laundry, the groceries, the vomitting ... those are all just minor issues that exacerbate your stress. At least that's how it is for me.

But, you know, as you have said before, Moxie, once you have a kid the highs are so much higher and the lows are so much lower. Nobody can explain what it's like to somebody who hasn't been there, except to say that somehow the good outweighs the bad.

[Jan]

I have something of a standing rule for myself. I don't criticize other people's relationships. Not even to myself. It is simply not possible for anyone to know and understand the complex dynamic of a relationship, particularly a partnership-type like a marriage, unless they are one of the people IN the relationship.

I say that to say this: I'm the original "it was harder with my husband around" poster. I realize that that relationship dynamic (I did the "baby" work -- he was available to help if I asked, but I mostly didn't) would not be for everyone. Some women might be offended (in a feminist way), some might feel unsupported. I thrived on it. And (other than the ever-predictable "more sex, please" complaints from the peanut gallery) so did our relationship.

I'm can't believe you meant it this way, Moxie, but I take issue with the idea that it is not possible to be unhappy with the state of your relationship and still like who you are.

There is a fine line, I think, between being open and supportive of overwhelmed parents and making parenting sound like an unmanageable task. I've heard many a new mom say that she felt lonely and isolated, but I know it also hurts to be the mom who IS generally enjoying every minute of being mommy and be told that I must be lying when I say so.

I think this community does an admirable job of respecting our differences as parents and as people. It's so important that we all continue to remember that words on a page are NEVER the entire story (not even hedra's lengthy missives! - heh) and give each other the benefit of the doubt.

Ack, I feel like I'm rambling and off-topic. I guess what I'm really trying to say is that parenting is parenting and it will be what it will be and there are a million factors that play into how difficult or enjoyable it will be and most of those aren't even in our control. 'No partner' is a factor, but it's not even possible to predict whether it will, overall, be a positive or a negative one. And it is particularly impossible to predict it for someone who is not yourself and whose whole story you don't know.

Huh. I think I maybe have just constructed the longest-winded way ever to basically say "I don't know"? I rock.

[Jen]

Shannon, this comment "It's just sort of this ever-present need to be "on" all the time for your kid(s). The laundry, the groceries, the vomitting ... those are all just minor issues that exacerbate your stress. At least that's how it is for me." . . .

Whoa, baby, this is ME!!! I should have ZERO to complain about in life. Truly. But, the sense of someone (baby, hubs, work) always, ALWAYS wanting a piece of me is something I struggle with every day. And, with all of that, not finding time for the things i want/need. . . very hard for me.

[Jen]

Shannon, this comment "It's just sort of this ever-present need to be "on" all the time for your kid(s). The laundry, the groceries, the vomitting ... those are all just minor issues that exacerbate your stress. At least that's how it is for me." . . .

Whoa, baby, this is ME!!! I should have ZERO to complain about in life. Truly. But, the sense of someone (baby, hubs, work) always, ALWAYS wanting a piece of me is something I struggle with every day. And, with all of that, not finding time for the things i want/need. . . very hard for me.

[Jen]

Shannon, this comment "It's just sort of this ever-present need to be "on" all the time for your kid(s). The laundry, the groceries, the vomitting ... those are all just minor issues that exacerbate your stress. At least that's how it is for me." . . .

Whoa, baby, this is ME!!! I should have ZERO to complain about in life. Truly. But, the sense of someone (baby, hubs, work) always, ALWAYS wanting a piece of me is something I struggle with every day. And, with all of that, not finding time for the things i want/need. . . very hard for me.

[Moxie]

Oooh, Jan. Interesting distinction there. I think there's a fine (or maybe not-so-fine) line between having a relationship that has issues (which it sounds like yours does) on certain topics, and one that isn't working at all. I think it's really, really super-hard to being in a relationship that isn't work while you have a kid, and it's going to end up affecting your self-esteem. But being in a relationship with issues is different, and, in some ways, could make you like yourself (and parenting) even more.

Hmm. Another thought: a relationship with issues is constantly moving, but one that doesn't work is just blocked. Does that resonate with anyone?

[apple]

My issue - different parenting styles, different sets of expectations and priorities. It certainly feels like it would be a lot easier to not have to keep negotiating every detail or work around someone else. Everything else in the relationship is overshadowed by this BIG issue that shows up all day, everyday in a million little ways. Anyway, first therapy appt tomorrow. Wish us luck.

[hedra]

Oh, yeah - the always moving thing is essential.

I remember wondering at some point why everyone seemed to think that once we were married, it was supposed to be 'simple' - like once we figured it out, it would stay figured out. We're works in progress, which means WE are always changing, adding, growing, shifting, backtracking, retreading old ground, forging ahead in new areas, rethinking... it is ever-moving, being me.

And I assume it is ever-moving being epeepunk, too. Even the pace of change is always changing.

So of course, if a relationship stays in one place, unchanged, with all that going on, there's something seriously amiss.

The boundaries between me and ep and me and each child are flexible, fluid, and always shifting. They're like the amnion between M and R, separating them as well as defining their intersection in my womb. If one pushes here, it will bulge back there. They could play games through the boundary, interact, but only as long as the boundary was flexible - if the amnion was a hard line, always the same intersection, non-responsive, non-changing, it would be impossible to tell if there even WAS someone on the other side! It becomes isolating, at that point, and energy toward the relationship doesn't penetrate to who either party is. The proverbial beating head on brick wall image. And yes, blocked, in both the conceptual and visual sense of the terms.

Maintaining several ongoing relationships that are in high states of change (because parenthood is one of the big triggers for internal change, IMHO, and kids are developing so they're always changing, too) is a lot of effort. It also has a taste of that 'need to be on for all' - every intersection needs to be managed, responded to, maintained. Any left drop for too long ossify or calcify and become too stiff to work with.. and that means more work to make it flexible again, or ignoring it and hoping someone on the other side chips through the bricks... (sorry, that's getting to be a really bad mix of images...).

Anyway, yeah, hard work to work on all fronts all the time. But when you hit the sweet intersections, when things are flexible and adapting and responsive with any intersection, it becomes much easier - it isn't always hard, for every dyad. Many dyads have long periods of easy back-and-forth, some have just certain times that are good, they're each their own.

I'm not sure if what I'm saying makes sense, in this context, or answers any questions... And I didn't connect the 'not right in relationship' and 'things harder = not liking myself' sentences, really - I thought 'yes, when the relationship is taking a lot of energy and effort, I have less left over elsewhere' and 'when things are really hard, liking myself is one of the best ways to make the effort work' - that is, I assumed you meant that whatever your circumstances, relationship status, whatever, liking yourself is useful for making it work. Whatever it you've got.

Anyway, my take, my thoughts, my lengthy ramble.

And @Jan, you're spot on - even with my lengthy rambles, there's no way to see in and see what my relationships are really actually like. Even my mom, close in as we were, could not see 'into' my marriage at all - she was frankly confounded by the whole thing until well after we were married (I think five years?) - she had genuinely NO idea why I loved ep, wanted to be with him, etc. She recognized that it worked, our relationship (hers and mine) thrived, I was happy, thriving, positive, etc.,... but... even in person, it is hard to see what's really going on in there. And even as one half of the relationship, it's still hard sometimes to get more than just a feel for how things are going.

[Fiona]

I think it matters when one party had to be convinced to parent.

In that case, when you feel overwhelmed, the internal dialogue can go like this: "I'm freaking out! I could ask for help, but what if he says, 'you're the one who wanted this baby.'?" Of course, he's never said that, and I doubt he ever would. But it's there, in my head.

And when I wonder how much is enough from him - what's a fair share of diapers, night-duty, etc. - I factor in the fact that I was the push-er in this project. He committed to it, but it took a lot of convincing.

So being a parent in a good relationship with issues (as I think all good relationships have) still leaves you questioning yourself at times. And it's hard when you're in need of help, help is there, but your own mind says, "don't ask."

[Sherry]

I agree that there are plenty of single parents who have survived, and you should have a baby if it is important to you. But I'm going to highjack the thread -- sorry. My husband and I are having lengthy conversations about our relationship. We were married 17 years before having a baby, and now he's jealous and lonely. He feels he isn't getting enough of me. I work full-time and want to be with my 16-month-old baby whenever possible. I spend 3-4 hours every evening after the baby goes to bed with my husband. He wants to schedule regular date nights without the baby. I'm going to do it, but I'm resentful, I guess. I think the hours when she's sleeping should be enough for the two of us, and the rest of the time, he can share me with her. I want to hear/read some advice about what's normal and what I should be doing to keep my marriage healthy. I've done some searching here but can't find anything. Thanks for any pointers.

[Anna]

@ Shannon- Yep, the constant need is the hardest for me too, even if no one actually needs anything at the moment. It's knowing I have to be ready, at any second, to GIVE. And I too have one child, reasonable work hours, a supportive spouse--nothing to complain about really except the financial strains of my husband going back to school and the emotional strains of having a 16-month-old who will. not. sleep. still.

@Jan-Also yes, to all of it. And thanks for this: "it also hurts to be the mom who IS generally enjoying every minute of being mommy and be told that I must be lying when I say so." There have been really hard days when I've been among the disbelievers--and that's a completely hypocritical stance. I think it is that I didn't expect this to be so HARD for me, and coming across people who really do love every second is painful, pokes right at the weak belly of my insecurity: "If it is possible to just love this, all the time, then what is wrong with ME?" I realize it isn't fair to project these insecurities outward by trying to subdue someone else's joy, but sometimes need a reminder. Thanks!

[Johanna]

Sherry, it seems like the problem your husband is experiencing might stem from a belief that the baby is your responsibility - like she's primarily your project, as opposed to a jointly held responsibility. It seems like he's framing it as though your time is, at any given moment, for the baby or for him. That doesn't seem to leave room for the possibility that when the three of you are home together when she's awake, he *is* spending time with you, but the baby is part of the group at that moment as well. Maybe he's having a hard time figuring out the new family dynamic as opposed to his relationship with his daughter, and then his relationship with you. I feel like if he saw day-to-day parenting as shared equally, he would consider the time you're all together as "family time" and the time after the baby goes to bed as "me and my wife without the baby". I think that's different than "time that my wife owes to me, and should spend with me".

Does that make sense in your life/relationship? That's what occurred to me when I read your post.

I think it is *perfectly* reasonable to come home from a day at work and expect to spend the late afternoon/early evening (or whatever the case may be) with the baby, and then have "couple time" between her bedtime and yours. Where is he during the post-work, pre-baby-bedtime hours?

That said, I think that if he's being honest with you and saying that he's feeling jealous and left out, that's a sign that something is awry - maybe he just really needs to reframe his thinking and change his behavior, but it might also be that you're consumed by all things baby and, even during couple-time, you're not really focused on being *in* your marriage. I've definitely gone through that before.

I feel for you, this would be very frustrating if it were happening to me.

[hush]

As for the "idea that parenting without a partner is hard, but parenting with a partner who's actually causing more work for you is even harder" ... I have no basis to make that comparison, so I won't. I only know myself as married mom with a ton of resources, yet I still struggle and it's hard. Take some of those resources away, I'm pretty sure it would cause me to struggle even more. But I can't speak for anyone else anymore than I can hazard a guess at which path would be harder. How about it's ALWAYS hard? (Sorry if that doesn't resound with everyone - if it's EASY for you, great! That's cool, too.)

On top of the pressures of trying to raise a little man, I also feel overwhelming "aesthetic" pressures both as a mother and as a married woman that I suppose comes from external society - similar to what Shannon said, it isn't a concrete thing and it's hard to put your finger on it exactly. Middle class angst, maybe? It's pressure that my husband has never had to feel in his whole life. And when I've mentioned it to him, he's like "don't worry about holiday cards this year - who cares about that stuff?" Well, I do & I sooo wish I didn't.

It's what's said and what's not said. But to enumerate it sounds a bit silly, and yet it isn't, because it's really there. Like the pressure to send out baby announcements, the endless stream of thank-you notes, birthday presents, etc. To keep the house looking camera-ready (hah!), to keep myself presentable looking (what a joke! let's not even talk about my bikini line), and to keep everyone under our roof organized. But who cares, right? These things are really not a big deal in theory, but to be honest, if they're not in order it's like I feel these imaginary eyes on me. Like Martha Stewart and Emily Post are going to jump out from behind the bushes and beat me up.

Reading the comments yesterday, the discussion about "my husband is my secret 2nd/3rd child" resounded with me a little bit because I struggled with those feelings early on after the baby came. Hubby & I finally came around - I think by grace of God & some dumb luck somehow we came out of Survival Mode and eventually found the right tone to really reach one another.

Yes, parenting will expose the cracks in any relationship. But if things hadn't gotten better? Who knows. I think it's a bit of an escapist fantasy I engage in sometimes, the whole "I'd be better off alone without the wifely duty crap" - that way I could put aside all of the stupid aesthetic nonsense and just focus on the joy of being a mom, and let my house go to hell and no one would care. Actually, I probably would still care because I have internalized society's subconscious perfection messages. Anyway, long ramble, the point is I don't know what's harder or what life has in store for us. Brings to mind that Grateful Dead line: "cause when life looks like easy street there is danger at your door."

[Cloud]

@Sherry- My first thought was "wow, he gets a lot more couple time after baby goes to bed than my hubby gets!" But we have a baby who doesn't sleep all that well, so I go to bed early. I agree with the PPs that this is probably a symptom of something more subtle, and actually think your Hubby deserves credit for bringing it up and offering a solution rather than just stewing. Now you are trying to return the favor, so maybe you guys can negotiate a solution that works for both of you.

Anyway, you asked for data points. Here are mine: We try to do "date lunch" one weekday a month. We both work in the same general area, so this is easy to do. This gets us some couple time w/o cutting into sleep time.

Date nights are few and far between, because of the sleep issues. We do go out now and then, but I wouldn't call it regularly scheduled.

My parents have given us a couple of nights completely off- i.e., they stay with Pumpkin and we go to a hotel in a nearby city. These have been very helpful. We get a little bit of carefree together time, and there is enough time for both of us to get what we want (i.e., sleep and sex).

We also get time to talk while pushing Pumpkin on her evening walks. She loves to just sit in her stroller and look around, and we get a chance to catch up on our workdays or talk about whatever logistical housekeeping issue is most troublesome at the moment. We've been doing the "talk during the walk" thing for a long time as a way to get a chance to talk without the baby interrupting (too much- now that she's talking we do have to pause our conversation to celebrate every bus that passes).

Another thing that was very helpful for us was to set aside Friday night after the baby goes to bed as "couple night". We usually have a beer and talk, snuggle, etc, etc. Sorta like a date night without going out. This got started when we thought about what we used to do on Friday nights and were missing (go out to our local pub and have a few beers) and modified it to fit our new lifestyle (sit on our sofa and have a few beers).

And we try to do some fun family things on the weekend, that we can all enjoy. It helped a lot when I listened to what Hubby wanted out of those instead of just suggesting things that I felt comfortable with.

[Joy]

@Sherry- My husband definitely went through the same kind of phase when my older two were about that age. What we eventually figured out, though, was that he didn't just want time with me... he wanted me to want time with him. He was feeling that I somehow was less attracted to him; he didn't want to beg me for attention, he wanted to feel desired again. Not just in a physical/ sexual way, but emotionally/ intellectually too.
I don't know if that helps, but anyway... Eventually, the kids got a little older and lower maintenance, we got out more and did things together that we used to enjoy pre- kids, and I started taking better care of myself, which made me feel more attractive (internally and externally), which just all sort of snowballed and improved our connection astronomically.
I guess what I'm saying is hang in there, be aware of both of your feelings, and keep working on it. For what it's worth...

[Cloud]

@hush (and @Shannon)- I know what you mean. It is a constant struggle to figure out what I SHOULD really care about.

I have one suggestion for you, Hush- boardshorts. I live in SoCal, and we've been taking Pumpkin to the beach every weekend for the last month or so, in an attempt to get her used to the water, etc. Thank goodness for my boardshorts. No one needs to know what my bikini line looks like, and I don't feel like I'm in some dorky Mom suit.

Mine hide my not so tone tummy, too, and are short enough not to leave me with a goofy tan line that shows with my regular shorts. They are a marvelous thing.

[Joy]

@Hush- HA! Love the Martha Stewart/ Emily Post line... hilarious!

[erin]

I've been thinking about my marriage quite seriously in the last year. My husband is often not around due to work, so I already manage every detail relating to the kids, our house and finances, and to be honest, whenever my husband is actually home when the boys are awake, he stresses me out and he stresses the kids out.

He wants things done a certain way when he's home and whines and moans until he either gets his way or I ignore him long enough that it's not fun for him anymore. He wants our kids to be raised in a certain way that is completely the opposite of how I raise them (and I say "I" because I truly feel like a single parent here. He is home before their bed time an average of twice a week, and often only for an hour at max- I've had to make things work my way so that we can survive around here). When he is here with them he plays with them and is a really great dad. But when it comes down to any work relating to the kids, he does absolutely zero.

We live side by side. This job was supposed to be a temporary position that has grown into 2 years and counting. He is not paid enough for the amount of hours he works, and I have told him on more than one occasion that he's going to come home one day and he won't recognize his own kids.

I'm still trying to decide if this is a relationship with problems (as in, if he were actually home a reasonable amount of time that we could work things out) or if we are blocked and need to go our separate ways. I like the way you put it in comments, Moxie- maybe I should be looking for any movement here.

One thing I've learned in the last several months is that I really could do this on my own. I think I'd be similarly stressed, butthat stress would focus more on finances and not on my marriage.

[Shannon]

I'm interested in the direction the comments are taking RE: date night. A couple of weeks ago I got to talking with a co-worker who is pregnant with her first. She said something like, "After the baby is born, my husband and I are still going to make an effort to put our relationship first and go out on dates. We aren't going to be that couple who has no life outside of our kid." I got to thinking, and my husband and I ARE that couple. We have no family in the area to babysit, and we're tired/busy, so we never go out. I write for Chicago Moms Blog, and I did a post entitled "We're Date Night Flunkies," which enumerated the reasons behind not wanting to hire a babysitter (don't know anybody, too much hassle, not worth the money). The commenters either seemed to think I was insane, or they completely agreed with me.

Now, I'm not really looking for suggestions as to where to find good babysitters. I mean, if you want to mention that, it's cool. But I'm really just wondering, am I the only one who isn't all that great at getting out for date nights?

Just as a side note, I'm kind of at the point where I think we need to bite the bullet and hire a babysitter at night. The "date night at home" thing isn't working because after the baby goes to bed we tend to go our separate ways. (Not to imply that we can't stand the sight of each other, it's just that we have different things to get done and/or different TV preferences.) I have minor trust issues, but husband has major ones. He doesn't think anybody is qualified to watch our kid, who, by the way, goes to bed at 7:00 and would probably be in bed the whole time. (Kind of one of the reasons it never seemed worth it to hire a babysitter anyway.)

So, like I said, I'm wondering if anybody else has these same issues.

[Tzipporah]

I think the need to be "ON" is really hardest for those of us who are naturally introverts, who prefer our human interactions to be on our timetable, on our terms. Babies don't particularly respect mommies' boundaries. :)

I certainly wouldn't ever tell a mom she must be lying or delusional if she's genuinely happy with her life. But for those of us who've had it really hard, it's difficult to understand where such moms are coming from. I've only recently been able to see that other new moms (birth onwards) are really, actually, HAPPY - and it's given me a whole new set of grief to work through, for the experience I missed when baby Chalal was born.

I think I can definitively say: being an introverted Adult Child of an Alcholic, married to another introverted adult undergoing undiagnosed fibromyalgia, and trying to parent a new baby is not easy. And might have been easier as a single mom - since I would then have felt justified in asking for more help from others, when my husband couldn't help with anything.

[Tzipporah]

--And it's hard when you're in need of help, help is there, but your own mind says, "don't ask." --

Fiona - BINGO

[Lauren]

@Shannon--My husband and I are also date night flunkies. DD is 19 months, and we have never had a babysitter. Like you, we have no family in the area, and even though our next door neighbors have a 15-year-old daughter who could babysit for us, we've just never done it. My MIL just visited for five days, and the closest we got to having date night was going out for ice cream. We were gone, oh, about 30 minutes. What is wrong with us? Our marriage is happy and strong, but sometimes I feel like we're the only people in the world who have never left their child with anyone. DD just started going to preschool one day a week, so we have started having lunch together on that day. For now, I guess we'll consider that our "date night."

[Holly]

Shannon, we were totally in the same boat (never going on any kind of date, ever) for a long time. But lately, we've gotten much better -- we're even going out for the huz's birthday on Sunday! woo!

we swap sitting with a couple of other families. that way I don't have to worry about my kids (who will realistically probably be sleeping anyway) not having their needs met - it's another mama hanging with my girls! Also, that makes the sitting FREE, because some other evening I'll go hang out with her kids while they go out. Which is also sort of like time off for me, because after her boys go to bed, I'll veg out and not even think about what laundry I need to do or the state of my floors. I really really can't recommend this arrangement enough.

I guess the trick is to know someone, though, that you'd have similar enough parenting styles with that you can swap date nights. I have a couple families from my church that I trust absolutely and they have roughly the same age kids as we do. It's fabulous.

[enu]

@shannon: Wewere never great at getting out on regular dates, either. Some years were better than others. It's hardly something to beatr yourself up about.

But if you want to get out more and also to have adult babysitters with some experience, I recommend baby sitting coops. Of course, the down side is you have to sit in return - otoh, once the kids are old enough to play together it's more like having a playdate than babysitting. Some sitters coops work out better than others, but one we belonged to for 5 years, during the early years was fantastic.

Now we could go out any night we wanted to, no sitters, no fuss - and we still don't ;-)

[hedra]

RE: Date night. I'm a big fan of date night.

We didn't start them until various ages for each new child (10 months or so being the earliest, I think?), and they started out as evenings out, and are now all overnights (yes, once-a-week overnights, most months!). We do have family for that, which makes a definite difference on the trust issue, but even then, it was NOT an easy hump to get over. Especially if I had to pump. Talk about guilt-machine - 'I'm pumping for my bfing toddler because I am going to a movie for my own pleasure, with my husband'. Yet, that should be a fine fine thing to do.

Date night for us was where we redefined ourselves as parents, as a couple both parents, as a couple parenting together. Date nights were us periodically trying to talk with each other, and ending up talking about the kid. (We got better at it. Really!) Eventually they became just dates - going out, just to go out. Taking a walk, going to a movie, going to the bookstore then sitting on the sofa with our feet tucked under each other reading... (introvert date night!). Just taking time to be together, and BE, together.

Date night was where I realized that who I was had changed, and that who he was had changed, and that we needed to figure out where we intersected again.

Right now, date night is probably closer to what Sherry's getting on the evening after baby in bed stuff - not totally engaged, and that's really on me. My brain is doing too many things at once, and I just want to turn it off sometimes. Right now, date night isn't getting the best of me as input, I think. Neither are lunchtime calls (seriously have sucked at those for months), daily email reminder conversations, or the rest of the ways we touch base, except morning 'great now we're running late' after-shower conversations. Oy.

But I'd still crumple without date night. Even though I'm not doing great at doing date nights, I miss them desperately when they're not available. I won't say the first few times (with each child) don't suck - they are rather rough. But my kids have fun with various care providers, we have a network of college students and relatives to draw from, and mainly we use my mom. Which she offered to do for free because she wishes someone had done it for her - she might not have had some of the relationship problems she did have, or might have figured out what to do with them sooner, if she'd had that couple time, she says. So she gives that to us (and my nearby brother - the brother across the country Does.Not.Need.Datenights. And he doesn't, it seems. One of my sisters doesn't do them, but admits her marriage might be better if she did...).

That's our experience. Take it for another data point, I guess. I think I'd have resented them if I'd had them presented as a demand - but they were presented as an opportunity, from outside the relationship. It smells like '*WE* have a problem, and I' telling *you* what the solution should be' - which means resentment from me, period. Date night to go problem solve whether we need to do date nights or something else in order to re-establish the relationship bonds in their new configuration, I'll buy. But not 'I've decided that date night will work for US, because it will work for ME, and you are required to agree.' It's hard to even get from there to 'I'll give it a try and see'. Teeth definitely gritted.

(and all that's with a DH who was totally on board with parenthood, engaged, involved, SAHD for the first year or so, totally willing. Getting past the hump and communicating and finding myself and ourselves together was a challenge even then - I would consider it more important if he is NOT quite as on-board as that...)

[hedra]

Hmm, second-to-last paragraph was for Shannon.

Last paragraph kind of stuck out there in space - it's about the variability of benefits, though my high rating on value, even though we're working from the same perspective. Does that make sense?

[rudyinparis]

DH and I do have regular dates, but--although I never thought of it this way until just now--I can see how there's social pressure to have them and if, as a couple, it's not your thing, you could be looked at as over-involved in your child. And that would suck and be so lame. Some couples probably just don't need a "date night". This idea that we all need to be navigating our lives the same way drives me crazy. I think people ("experts") who push that party line are probably coming from a place of insecurity. I think Jan early on here talked about not judging couples, how we don't know their private lives, and that is so true. Years ago I had a friend and coworker and she was talking about her boyfriend and referring to him as her soulmate, talking about this intense metaphysical bond they had that transcended space and time, etc., etc., and at that time, on that day, DH (then my boyfriend) was bugging the hell out of me and I remember thinking, sourly to myself "Wow. That must be nice. {snort}" A few months later my friend and her boyfriend broke up. Now, I wasn't happy about that, and that's not the point to the story, the point is that here we are, 10+ years later, and DH and I are still managing to limp our way messily through our days. You just don't know.

I'm not sure if this pertains to the topic.

[Cloud]

I think "date night" per se isn't what is so important- I think it is figuring out how to connect as a couple now that there is a very demanding little person in the mix. And that little person is someone you both love and want to spend time with.

For some couples, date night works. For some, it just adds to the stress and the disconnect. We have struggled with how to connect, and do not have it completely figured out, but we are in a pretty good place now. I posted our recipe above, but again, I don't think it is the details that matter. What helped us get to where we are was to talk about the problem (we weren't connecting anymore) and then discuss potential solutions and figure out what WE needed, which was not necessarily what everyone else seemed to think we needed.

[Shannon]

Thanks all who answered my question so far, and I look forward to more responses. I had been wanting to poll this community about the whole date night issue for awhile, but didn't know if it was worth an official e-mail to Moxie because it's less of a "need advice" kind of thing and more of a "please tell me I'm normal" kind of thing.

I really feel my main roadblock to date night is the issue that we'd be paying somebody to come and sit in our house, watch our TV, and eat our food, all so we could go out after the baby is in bed anyway. At that point, my husband and I are technically alone already. Unless we had something I really wanted or needed to go to, it just doesn't seem worth it. And I also totally agree with people who have said that it sucks to feel like you have to go on x number of date nights per month in order to meet some societally-established quota.

@rudyinparis, you are so right that you can't judge somebody's relationship by what they say. Some people are just gushier than others, and some people are just not telling the truth (for a variety of reasons). As I think we've established on this blog and elsewhere, this goes for people's feelings on motherhood, too. Some people are all "motherhood is the most wonderful experience ever" (this, BTW, being the refrain of EVERY celebrity mom quoted in People magazine) and some of us just don't say stuff like that. Then you get the impression that every mom in the world is happier and more talented than you, and you have to go online to a place like this to find we all have the same insecurities.

[Lisa]

data pt. re date nights and alternatives...

background: kid slept terribly for the first year, through the night finally at 2.3. Wouldn't take a bottle ever, nursing only way to get him down at all (meaning get any sleep at all) - just went with it. So going-out date nights often not worth the hassle, and had to be either super-early or super-late. Now at 2.6, learning to fall asleep sans boob, and life is changing.

to add to that, it just didn't feel right to either of us to be away from him for the 1st 6 months. We'd go out for a few hrs. and leave him with my (wonderful) parents - mom, dad, baby all tense. So we stopped for a while. But soon enough it became possible, desirable, fun for all. (DH was ready first, then me, then T. Caused a bit of tension, but we talked it out eventually.) I hated the pushing from others to do something that wasn't right at the time, for us - mostly just smiled and ignored it.

Now we do some evening date nights, but more often it's weekend afternoons (2 or 3x/month) - aunt or grandparents or nanny stays here w/the kid from 2-6, and we go out - or vice versa. Then everyone has dinner together after. Or reverse with breakfast at 8 and time apart from 9-1. Works for us.

And yep, we're not yet ready for weekends away sans kid. OK, DH and I are ready. T. isn't quite there. Soon, I think. But who cares, in the long run, if we do it at age 2 1/2 or age 3, or whatever? It's a long life, a long marriage.*

I think a lot of people who are alarmed by others' choices/necessities in this area are projecting their own issues - "I couldn't do that! She's a better mother than I was/a martyr/too protective/callous/has a better (worse) marriage/is ignoring her husband's (child's) needs/etc. etc...." Aagh. Not that I'm immune to such weirdnesses; I've just decided to act on them as little as possible, and trust my gut.

* This is what I tell myself, too, when I have those single-parent fantasies. It's a long life, a long marriage. This is only one season of it. And I like moxie's take on "as long as it's moving...." Only time i've worried is when it felt stuck. So far, we've been able to unstick it each time - the foundation is there. But God, it's hard - and yes, sometimes it's a lot easier meeting the needs of a two-year-old than those of a two-year-old and a 35-year-old. My needs? Um, sometimes. More than that, lately. Coming blessedly unstuck again.

[Suki]

On date night stats, I'm with those who say there is no right answer for every couple. Some couples need date night to keep the connection alive and others don't. DH and I probably get out for dinner together without the baby once a month, and every few months we go away for 3-7 days/nights without the baby. We were married 10 years before the baby came, traveled a ton together, and went out a ton together. So for us, even the new 'normal' requires a pretty substantial amount of one-on-one time. And, for us, every time we go out or go away just the two of us, it definitely rejuvenates the relationship. Otherwise, often I feel like we are just going through the motions of getting through the days, and barely connecting at all beyond the duties of managing life. But, to each her own. I think the point is to pay attention and figure out what the relationship needs in order to stay alive post-baby.

[Mercysmama]

Sherry- One's relationship with their spouse preceeds and exceeds their relationship with their kids... meaning that you have your relationship with your husband before the baby, and you will (hopefully) have that relationship after your baby walks across the stage in a cap & gown. That gap of 18 years, or so, doesn't have to be a void in your marriage. The greatest gift you can give your baby is a happy, stable, and healthy home- and that starts with your marriage.

We all have huge responsibilities in caring for our children right now, especially when they are so young that their very survival depends on you feeding, clothing, and protecting them. It's really easy to put "couple time" WAY down there on the list of things to do. However, I have witnessed a few families fall apart because the identity of "mom" replaced the identity of "wife."

So, what to do? What about a "family night/day" that the 3 of you can go do something fun together in addition to a date-night sans baby? Go to the park, the zoo, the playground, make breakfast together and bring your husband breakfast in bed... It sounds like you want your husband to enjoy time with you AND the baby, which may be something he is willing to do if you are willing to enjoy time with JUST him.

As for us, we have always tried to spend some time every week doing something together as a couple, which usually involves an outdoor activity. Snowboarding in the winter, running in the summer. Sometimes the baby comes w/ us in the jogger stroller but othertimes my mom will watch her.

[Sherry]

Love, love, love you guys. I really needed this.

[r+k+mama]

I would die without date night. I'm not exaggerating. For me, date night ties directly into that feeling of being "on" all the time. When I'm at home- even if my husband has taken the kids out and I'm alone, I still feel like I should be folding their laundry or writing in their baby books. I can't turn it "off"- it's just who I am now. However when I am in a nice restaurant or bar and have had 3 or so glasses of wine and had a conversation where I can gratuitously use the f word, the "on" is pleasantly dulled (along with the rest of my senses) and I find this immensely rejuvenating. I'm a planner by nature but I've found I can't plan a regular date night. When we start to feel disconnected as a couple and the light bickering turns into a giant argument neither of us are that into but just can't seem to let go, we know it's time, and *for us* it has truly been a blessing to our marriage and sanity. However, we have very capable family members willing to watch the kids so I can completely understand the reluctance/fear of hiring a babysitter.I can also see how some couples just don't need them at all. How many families are there in the world? That's how many configurations of how things could/could not work there are.

[mo]

Shannon - I related a bit to your comment. I have 3 yr twin boys and my husband and I have probably gone on a total of less than 10 date nights since we had them (I think it is probably closer to 5). So many things play into that - we don't want to "subject" our boys to someone besides the nanny and we feel pretty strongly about not having the nanny babysit (unless completely necessary) so she won't burn out on the daytime gig. My mom comes down and always suggests we go out while she's here but until the boys were a bit older (just about now), I didn't really trust her to stick to our "plan" (schedule, food, sleep, etc.) and also felt it might be a bit much for her.

I also don't think I stressed too much about finding an alternative babysitter as it just so didn't seem worth it. Felt more like one more obligation, thing I needed to plan, responsibility, etc.

That said, I do think my marriage has taken a hit. We too have the time after the boys go to sleep and we either do our own thing (chores, different TV shows, etc.) or sit on the bed and watch TV together. Not a lot of connecting going on there. Over the last three years, it has grown harder and harder to just hang out together (a date would make that more evident) because we are so out of practice. I'm so hoping that as the boys get older, we will somehow get back on track. At this point, I think we are headed to a marriage counselor so we can get someone to help jumpstart the reconnection process.

[Toni]

I'm so ambivalent about date night. I need sometime to connect with my partner. On a day to day basis, we don't talk enough, or talk only about important practical details. Then he forgets half of those and I get resentful. But we don't have time to talk outside of that. So date night would be great.
But in practice, 1. it's expensive to get a babysitter, 2. I miss seeing our kid at night and he said he misses it too(we both work full time) 3. I just want to sleep at night, and 4. when we do have a date, we rarely have substantial discussions.
So we try, not very successfully to have lunch together during the week, or to go biking on a nice weekends. That somehow spurs discussions during the breaks..
I welcome any suggestions. Some days it looks like a counselor's office is the only place we'll have a substantial discussion, but that's even more expensive and heart-wrenching.

[mo]

Toni... I know I just posted my comment but then I read yours and yours says exactly what I would say. I'm interested to hear what other folks say.

Sometimes I think our "dates" work better as family dates as we learn and grow and have fun as a family. Pressure is off also on the couple time and "forced" discussions.

[hush]

@Cloud - Boardshorts, yes!! Always wished I could be a California girl.

@rudyinparis - thank you for that story, ah, poetic justice - pertains so very nicely to this topic, I think! ;)

@Shannon - I also love it when people who don't have kids yet make aspirational comments about things they're sure they're going to experience when they have kids... which I then choose to hear as a dig at my own choices! I'm right there with you.

The whole narrative of the importance of Date Night/Gotta put your marriage first/Keep Dating, etc. can get to be a bit much. I don't know that that kind of across the board advice is always helpful in every situation. The meaning of Date Night has changed a lot for us since we became parents. Wonderful, precious "Alone Time" beat out "Date Night" for about the first 7 months or so of DS's life. Alone Time was for mama to walk the aisles at Tar-jhay, or go to book club without having read the book; and for daddy to watch Sports Center, or go grab some wings & beers with the boys.

Around about when DS turned 9 months old, "Date Night" began to turn into a standing appointment every Saturday that DH doesn't have to work (adds up to about 3 Saturdays of date nights per month). We have a sweet little 15-year-old girl come over at 5pm to babysit. We pay her $5/hour, and we have whatever she wants for dinner ready for her. We go out for an early dinner, catch a 7pm movie (not the best for conversation but because we're big movie buffs), and we're home by 9:30pm usually. This works for us right now. It wouldn't have worked when DS was younger (when Alone Time prevailed), but for now it does.

I wouldn't be down with it if dinner & a movie were activities I didn't truly want to do, and I felt like I was doing it just for the sake of doing it or feeling like I was doing what society was saying I was supposed to do (amen to those who've said that.) Hubby really looks forward to it, so that motivates me to keep it up, too. And for those of you who don't want to leave your kids with other people, I have a ton of respect for that decision.

[Simone]

Short on time today, but there's a great book I'm reading right now called "I was a Really Good Mom Before I Had Kids." Tackles this kind of stuff, and it hitting home in a lot of ways.

[Ashramama]

The one thing I've noticed about parenthood is the way that it forces you to confront all of those things which you never even realised were that big of a deal before you had kids. All the childhood demons come home to roost! Which means then that you are instantly fragmented into at least 4 beings: child who can play with your (current) child, child who needs to be healed (i.e. your self child), parent to current child, and partner to spouse (and possibly career woman too). I take my hat off to anyone who can deal with instant schizophrenia like that! Admittedly, we can't all do it with the equanimity that people like, say, Hedra, display... ;-)

Anyway, my point is that being a parent in my experience forces you to look at things that previously you probably could have got away with sweeping under the carpet, which is why cracks often appear in relationships at this time. Truth is, they were probably always there, you just didn't have occasion to examine them before. And of course, it seems to be the most inappropriate time, because all your energy needs to be with the kids. So often, spouse/partner comes a distant fourth on the list of priorities, after kids, job, housework, and your self comes way at the bottom after even that! So yes, I totally agree that it would seem to be so much easier to get on with being a parent without having to deal with stress of spouse issues, but here's the kicker: those issues would not even have surfaced for you to deal with if it weren't for the child dynamic! Why do issues present themselves? So we can deal with them, of course! Maybe being a single parent is the right answer after all. Or maybe it's about making sure your priorities are right, as so many people have already intimated.

So, after all that, I don't have any answers... I guess it just goes back to what feels right for you. If you can trust your mommy instincts, maybe you can trust your other instincts too? You generally know when your reactions to things are truth and when they're a cover for some other emotion, deep down, right?

[shelbitha]

I really appreciate the honesty that these comments seem to have. Thanks and I really needed it.

[anon]

@Simone: hee hee. I edited that book...before I had a kid. How foreign it all seemed then, not having time to brush one's teeth or kiss one's mate.

[anonToday]

Hijacking the hijack ...

I can't possibly be the only one whose spouse equates "connect" with "S-E-X", can I? I can feel perfectly well connected with him (romantically and everything) without The Deed, but not only does he seem to need it to feel connected, but it really bothers him that I don't.

[Jen]

Ahhhh, yes. S-E-X. Men def need it. At least mine does. After everyone taking from me all day it is the last thing I want to do. But . . . .

Also, one (sort of) positive of being a single mom would be no meddling MIL. While mine is nice enough she can't help but pick, pick, pick. YEAH LADY, I GET that you would not do things as I do. I GET that you did not have a fairly strict (as in we don't really skip it) nap routine. I GET That you'd rather go out for a nice lunch instead of waiting for baby to wake up from a nap. I GET that your daughter is far more laid back about such things and parenting in general. But, (I feel like saying), take the rolling eyes, comments and judgments and stuff it!!! Oh, the gift of restraint . . . I have it but barely.

[amy]

so, trickling back to the single parenting side of things... would it be a fair assessment to say that where a married couple needs to work on their relationship with each other after the addition of a child, a single parent might find her/himself needing to put effort toward maintaining her/his sense of self? like, instead of "date night", maybe just "a night off" to read a book, see a movie, go out with a friend, sans kid?

we all need that time, though, so i'm not sure. of course, i'm a married parent, so i don't have the benefit of seeing parenting from any other position.

re: date night, we've never done it, but we didn't go out much before our daughter either. i think this is a factor of individual preferences and, like most other things, works best when both partners agree on their value. plus, building off what another poster said, my husband and i see childrearing as a joint responsibility, so any time after the tot is in bed is couple time, as needed. wash hands, repeat. where the opinion differs is where the tension begins.

[AmyinTexas]

A few things...

My circumstances regarding "the helpful husband/father" in my first marriage were not drastically different than they are in my second. (Read that neither of them did/do their fair share.) But whereas that galled me to no end in my first marriage, I'm much more sanguine about it in my second. I think part of it is that I suspected when I married my second husband that he was not going to be incredibly helpful with his step-children, and while he does help with our baby, he's certainly not doing 50% of the work. The other part is what Moxie was saying. I'm just happier in this marriage, happier with this man (we are a great fit for one another), happier with my life in general. So, it is so much easier to deal with the "more than my fair share" parenting on a daily basis.

And I also want to agree with Hush. What we need in a date night changes. When the baby was up all night nursing what I really needed in a date was to get out of the house without the baby (with or without husband). Now that the baby is older, what I really treasure are the hours my husband and I spend together watching TV after all three of our kids are in bed. Our "date" is about being in the same room, watching and talking about the same programs. We manage it several times a week... my MIL frequently volunteers to watch the kids so we can go out... but, honestly, I don't get as much out of the experience of going out as I do when we nest right here at home.

[hedra]

@hush - yes! The needs change with the child's stages. I *still* need alone time, me time, etc. (not as much as ep does, but definitely need), and it can make it easier to be there for date night when I have that me time (and more, if I used it well). When babies are small, our short evening date nights often consisted of going for a walk down our main street, poking around in book or music stores, drinking coffee, etc. Together, but in a quiet, unobtrusive manner. And we also alternate who takes who out (not strictly, but regularly) - so that if one person wants something in particular, that need is 'served' by the other person. The 'I don't have to organize this one' feeling is nice, too. Alone time/me time is trickier for us - we cycle who gets priority based on what else is going on in our lives. Often that's professional development stuff, not personal, but with limited hours that's what we can do.

@Ashramama, "Admittedly, we can't all do it with the equanimity that people like, say, Hedra, display..."... :p yeah, keep in mind that I'm almost 11 years down the road, here, with four kids and some serious medical issues and the whole multiples thing under my belt. I was *not* so mellow about everything the first go around, and only somewhat better the second go around (I think discovering that B had stopped growing much at all by the time he was 3 1/2 just wiped everything off the 'things I really need to fret about' list - crises tend to strip away everything to the core, for me. Add in multiples, and... it's just too exhausting to get distressed by stuff unless it is really *really* important and fundamental.). All a learning experience, and while I present as pretty mellow even now, you can ask epeepunk whether I ever get myself in a twist over things (I'm going to paraphrase for him, in case he doesn't pop in to say something himself: "Um, she goes completely out of the atmosphere, wound up, OCD, fretful... and I have to wait around and periodically plink the balloon with a popgun to see if she's coming down yet. THEN she can usually get calmer. But you should hear her get started again if the topic comes up..." Yeah, a lot of stuff doesn't wind me up. And a lot does. (Pre-first-day-of-school-anxiety-are-us. Heh.) Again, can't read everything in what I write. I'm writing usually after the fact, when I've already come down from the brink! ;) I can't actually write much when I'm in that wound up state, as I usually can't sit still long enough to do so (I pace, or wander really fast from room to room...).

@Amy, yes, that 'maintaining a relationship with myself' aspect seemed to be a big part of my one friend's life plan, and it served her really well. She did volunteer work, as well just going to a class or a movie, on her nights out. Those were things that informed and served her relationship with herself. That was always central to her parenting, staying clear and always moving (not stuck in herself, either). She also chose to arrange group 'family dinners' with her single friends on a very regular basis (pot luck, but 'dinner party' level events, because she and her friends all enjoyed playing dressup), as another way of maintaining that sense of who she was. It included her son, but there were also many hands to help with him to make it work. Definitely many paths to fill that need.

There's also an issue I've been pondering about the difference between what one partner needs and the other. My sister who thinks date nights might help/have-helped her marriage NEVER needed date night time away from her kids, for her. It just simply wasn't necessary - she absorbed her mother-identity fully, and there was never any chafing at the edges on that. Date night was a big, 'uh, okay, works for you, but I still don't get it.' But her DH did not so fully transform, and the marriage always needed maintenance, from the start, on his side. So date nights probably would meet his needs, but really stretch her to her limit. No answer there. So they find others, as best they can.

The rhymes-with-hecks (reviving that term, heh) issue is also common - women tend to want rhymes-with-hecks after they're feeling connected, and men tend to want to use it as a pathyway TO feeling connected. Balancing that is tricky, especially if mom has been serving as a hot-water-bottle for one or more kids for many nights (and days) in a row. I find that the more the kids are glommed onto me, the less energy I have for being connected to anyone else, and the more that disconnect makes ep want to glom onto me, also. ACK! Fortunately, we both know this is the case, and he works to not overload me when he knows I've been slept on by four kids all night, and I work to stay present and make contact when he clearly misses me (though it often starts with me feeling leaned on and getting grumpy about it...). Like, oh, this morning. Sigh.

[Susannah]

I think it's so interesting how this conversation morphed from single parenting to date night for coupled parents. As a single mom, I have been reading all of this with interest.

One thing I notice is that some commenters just seem ready to give up a bit of time with kids or alone time to connect/reconnect with their partner, and some people just seem to not be ready.

I have been looping back my own sole-custody single mom experience. Many single moms I know have shared custody of some sort, and therefore have kid-free time built into their lives. But somehow it seems much less socially acceptable for them to look forward to and embrace kid-free time than it does for partnered mothers. We are *supposed* to want date-night, but we aren't *supposed* to look forward to *daddy's night*.

Partly it seems to be that date night can shift and accommodate different people's needs, so if it's date night but you haven't seen your kid much this week because of work, or they are especially clingy, or whatever, you might opt for a family date instead- whereas if you have a shared custody situation, that is usually less of an option.

Partly it just seems as if becoming a single mom (through any means) gives some people license to judge one's commitment to mothering in a different way. The thinking seems to go: you obviously didn't really consider your child's needs when you decided to get divorced/get donor insemination/not marry your child's father/fill-in-the-blank. Since you have clearly shown already that you are motivated by selfish needs, then you really ought to make it up to your kids (show the world how committed you are to mothering despite your selfish tendecies) by wanting to be with them every.single.second. Heaven forbid you would actually look forward to a night off.

Not everyone thinks this way of course. But I and many of my single women friends seem to have some version of this script lurking in our own psyches. It's really interesting to think about.

Also I have been thinking about the blessings that daddy's night seems to bring to some divided families, and have wondered if any partnered parents have instituted daddy's (or non-primary-parent's) nights in the context of an intact family?

As a single mom with no "daddy's night", at least for now, for me the challenges are similar to PP's. You have to find a way to carve out an identity for yourself somehow, and usually that seems to require some regular kid-free time. Which means sacrificing kid time. A hard choice. It's a work in progress.

THank you everyone here for your wonderful acceptance and honesty and support!

[Sherry]

@anonToday, there is an intricate relationship between "connecting" and S-E-X for my husband. My husband really needs me to want it, not just to do it. Plus, one of his problems right now is that he is obsessing on the very limited sexual experiences I had before I met him -- just dwelling on them, asking me questions, and being jealous. I find it really weird -- we're talking about 22 years ago. I can only assume this all has come up for him because of my recent lack of desire for sex (or at least frequent sex) and my focus on the baby instead of on him. I hope I'm not sharing too much!

[hedra]

@Susannah, we also have kid dates - one child, one parent, or one child two parents (child's choice). And for a long time, I had a once-a-month gathering with friends I went to, which was Daddy's night with the kids. That's so much an automatic thing for us I didn't even think about it. And we have family-movie-night-on-the-bed, and all sorts of other configurations to meet whatever constellation of needs is uppermost this week.

And I'm really sorry that there's any whif at all of 'you CHOSE to steal the obvious-universal-by-rights-gift of two-parents/known-father/two-genders-of-parents/my-dealized-family-model from your child, you MUST give every second of your life back to them to make up for that, or you don't get to call yourself a Mother'... I know it is out there, but ... well, some people are thoughtless, and many speak from their own insecurities, but it's hard not to think that some are just unkind or even outright cruel.

I found it easier to understand that single parents needed time out to be themselves, in order to be the best parents they could be, compared to coupled parents. Coupled parents already have an outlet, a break, a relief guard, an ear, shoulder, whatever. Single parents by merit of being everything for their child need so much more to have time where they are not everything but just themselves. I end up feeling more on the guilty side for needing me-time *because* I have backup, not the other way around.