So a few more questions came in over the last week or so about second children. A couple of them from people who were either newly pregnant with the second or about to give birth, and were wondering if they were setting themselves up for disaster. The real concern for both those writers seemed to be the overwhelming sense of guilt at breaking up the little party the first child had, combined with the worry that they'd never be able to love the second child the way they loved the first.
I don't know that I have so much to offer here. I definitely felt both those feelings when I was having my second son. And I think it's a mistake to resort to the old "a sibling is the best gift you can give" line to comfort yourself, even if you do believe it. (I do for myself, because my relationship with my brother is the most important relationship I've had, aside from the one with my children.) Because even as wonderful as it is to have a sibling, there is loss for the older child. If nothing else, there's loss of having all the focus (which, again, could also be a good thing), but there's loss of the immediacy and the cocoon.
Does the good outweigh the bad? For my kids, yes. But it's important to acknowledge for yourself that it's not all happiness all the time. Allow yourself to feel a little sad about it, even as you look forward to the baby.
Can I ask a favor? If there's anyone who truly doesn't love their second (or later) child as much as the first, could you comment on it anonymously? I've never heard of it happening, but of course it's something you could never say in public. So if there is someone, please put it here anonymously, and we'll see if it's a realistic fear, or if loving the second one as much as the first is just something you can't imagine until you're there.
The other questions I got were from a very new mom-of-two and one about to pop any second now, who were really terrified of what was going to happen when their help (spouses and family) were gone and they had to be alone with the two kids. The spacing was right around 2 years for both of these moms, and the primary concern was how to keep the older one calm and happy while they got the baby to sleep. And yeah, that's a concern, because a 2-year-old's needs are very immediate, as are an infant's, so it could turn into a donnybrook easily.
Mine were 3 years apart, so my older one watched a lot of Bob the Builder DVDs while I was getting the little one down to sleep in those early days. For those of you with kids spaced closer than 2 1/2 years apart, how did you keep the older one chill while you were getting the little one to sleep? Any and all suggestions welcome.
@Jessica--I'm in a similar boat, expecting boy #2 three weeks from now. I didn't fall in love with him until he was about 6 months (although I was deeply CONNECTED by instinct)...and my love for him has grown and burned hotter now that he's 2. I think I was suffering from PPD and not understanding that I needed to relinquish the lesser parts of my pre-mom life in order to provide space for son #1. Because I feel so much wiser and less scared this time around, I feel more confident that I'll love #2 much more quickly. But who knows.
I am already mourning the loss of 1-1 time with #1, and fretting that I've wasted a good year of his life not REALLY appreciating him for all that he was.
Posted by: Must Be Motherhood | August 14, 2008 at 05:03 PM
These are such interesting comments. I am 22 weeks PG with my second. I am also a little scared about how things are going to play out, specially about how #1 will react to the new baby. But my concerns are not about how to entertain #1 or anything like that. I am more worried about my relationship with #1. She is a girl. She'll be 6 1/2 when #2 comes along (also a girl). It's a big gap in age (which was not intentional). My daughter and I are extremely close (she is also very, very close to dad) and we have a very intense bond. She's my sidekick, I am her playmate and while I am extremely happy about having another baby (I had a loss in between) I do fear that our relationship will never be the same. Add to that the fact that I am an only child, and I truly do not understand sibling relationships. Needlessly to say, I am nervous!
That being said, I already love this baby I am carrying. I really do. I know I will love her for the person she is. Additionally, as an only child I always longed for that sibling relationship, so I am happy to give my daughter a sister. However, I won't lie, I am nervous about how our dynamic will change. We are a pretty happy trio, things are so easy now. So, is a big age gap between #1 and #2 easier or harder? Any advise?
Posted by: Libby | August 14, 2008 at 05:13 PM
Did not have time to read the other comments...My two are now 4.5 and two next month, and I have to tell you that the early days of the second baby are fading fast from my memory (evolutionary preservation of the species, I'm sure). But, I remember being quiet pleased and surprised that my second didn't need as much coaxing to go to sleep. She was (and still is) a thumb sucker, so that helped her. But when she was a newborn, she was just fairly easy to put down. Nursing time could be a little tricky with the older one feeling quite left out, though. We did a lot of reading-while-nursing, and that seemed to help. Also, my older daughter had her own doll, her "baby", that she loved to take care of while I was taking care of younger daughter.
Posted by: charis | August 14, 2008 at 05:13 PM
@ anon38: I have EXACTLY the same issue with my twin boys (16 mo). I love both dearly, but have a closer bond with twin A, since as an infant he was more difficult so I always 'got' him. We try to even things out, but now twin A is very particular and only wants me.
I have to say, getting my twins both down for sleep, alone, is probably the hardest part about having twins. It was great when I could nurse both down, but other times I did the jump from crib to crib thing. Just recently I was holding one (balancing on crib rail) while patting the other's back. We also did a lot of stroller or stroller + carrier naps.
Posted by: suzanna | August 14, 2008 at 05:18 PM
I've read through most of the comments and haven't seen anyone else say what I'm about to write:
I have more fierce-love feelings for my second than I do for my first. Of course, I love them differently (though hedra, wow, I can totally see your "one love" thing too--and maybe I have my own version of that) and for different reasons, and some days I like one more than the other.
Anyway, I think part of it is that I had to grow to love being a mother with my first; with my second, I was already a mother and KNEW what was in store, so the bond was instant.
Posted by: Anon | August 14, 2008 at 05:40 PM
My 2 boys are 19 months apart and baby bear is almost 4 months. I will say that if the two moms with 2 under 2 can hire some help, have friends or family come sometime it will be really helpful.
We were given a very generous amount of money from my in-laws and for the first 8 weeks we had a babysitter come for 3-4 hours almost every day. Before baby bear came I though i would have them hang out with him and i would hang out with panda but initially because of the long-nursing sessions and just the chance to shower or catch up on some sleep the first month or so I was with baby bear and the sitters played with panda.
It hurt our relationship because I felt very distant from him at first and we had gone from being thick as thieves to being so distant since he wouldn't come near me as I nursed and so I started making it a point to spend 10 minutes a day with him of just quality us time. Then I started increasing it to 15, 20 and so forth. That way while I felt guilt over ignoring him so much I could appease myself that at least he got some undivided attention. Also, even though the sitters were there I felt a lot of regret that I wasn't enjoying baby bear's babyhood so much. Anyhow, I think it took me about 8 weeks to navigate the waters and feel like I could handle the 2 on my own.. and I used plenty of Thomas and Elmo and wheel of fortune to get through the first few weeks for nursing. Once baby got more efficient I started doing books and songs also (still did some TV) and by now Panda is beginning to entertain while I am nursing though I will still do books with him.
I had the same learning curve as the first one in learning to manage 2 and that was about 8 weeks. As to the love, with panda my heart used to ache to hear him cry, to be physically apart from him and I was weepy and leaky all the time for a long time (many months) and the feelings were so intense because it was my love for him and my change in becoming a mom. With #2 I am so much more relaxed and things are not as intense and it took me about 2-3 weeks to fall in love with him though I loved him and was fiercely protective of him but it took a while to start loving him.
As for now.. I love them both very differently and the like definitely see-saws. I don't know if you can love your kids equal since it is so hard to quantify but I think you love them for who they are and the feelings of who you like more can cloud who you think you love more at one time.
Also, I do think more of this how do i love each will come into play later when baby bear gets older and starts developing his personality.
Posted by: z | August 14, 2008 at 05:40 PM
My girls are 2 years 9 months apart ... the beginning was tough, especially because my older had given up naps and I was, obviousy, tired from tending to a newborn. Things that helped:
1. My mom came and stayed for 6 weeks. I realize many people cannot (or don't want to) replicate this. If you can, and it would work with your parent, I highly recommend it. My mom and my older daughter would play and go to the park, etc and give me some down time.
2. Preschool. My older daughter went preschool in the mornings. I love, love, love preschool.
3. TV. If this makes me a bad parent, so be it.
4. A good baby carrier is also critical ...
I don't love one of my girls more than the other. It sounds so patronizing to say that "you just have to wait until #2 arrives" but I think you do. Each girl is a different little person -- each with great and not-so-great qualities. I wouldn't say I love them the "same" but I can't say I love one "more." But I could not have imagined that before #2 was born ...
Posted by: Carla Hinkle | August 14, 2008 at 05:40 PM
Oh and about the napping I remember reading a comment here a while ago by paola I think that she instituted same time nap time in her house. And while initially baby bear's schedule was different and even now they are off sometimes during the afternoon we all lie down together. Now I don't get to sleep every day because I may be putting one to sleep as the other is getting up but at least we all get a rest. Even on weekends we do family nap time. And so we will continue forcing this schedule on them for as long as we can.
Posted by: z | August 14, 2008 at 05:42 PM
my son and daughter are nearly two years apart, and my third is almost exactly three years younger than my first. we co-sleep and when it was bed time for the oldest, i just took the baby in there with him and nursed her while he fell asleep. they didn't sleep next to each other so that was never a concern.
i should point out two things, though. first, i live in japan and we sleep on the floor (on futons) so there's no worry about anyone rolling out of bed. second, i have been blessed with children who fall asleep easily, and the older child(ren) has never been disturbed by a hungry baby in the middle of the night.
...i never worried about loving a second (or third) child less than the first. my mom would tell me over and over how she fretted before my brother (second child) was born, but i never had that worry. and i love my children fiercely, but i feel more protective and loving of the babies. it's hard to explain exactly.
Posted by: illahee | August 14, 2008 at 06:34 PM
I am expecting my second this December; my kids will be 3.5 years apart. So, I can only comment on the love part. I have always wanted more children, because I was afraid I would smother my daughter with the overflow of love I feel for her. Everyone seems to think they won't love their children enough; I'm afraid I love them too much and will hold them back!
Posted by: Newbie | August 14, 2008 at 06:52 PM
Thanks so much Suzanna - you are the only other twin mom that has mentioned the same experience. I used to bring it up in my twins club but the moms would look at me like I was crazy so I just stopped talking about the fact that I always had the same one. My friends (still to this day) always give me a hard time about the one being my favorite and I really hate those comments. Not 100% sure that I just don't want any kid to hear that and/or if I'm worried deep down there something to it, or just that I don't think it is true - more familiar -definitely yes; favorite - don't think so.
Posted by: anon38 | August 14, 2008 at 07:00 PM
@libby, and anyone else with large spacing due to a loss- please let your younger(s) know about the reason for the gap. just sometimes, in a quiet moment. my ex was 6 years younger and grew up thinking he was a less-wanted surprise. his mama told me she'd actually had several losses between him & his older sibs. i really think that knowing would have helped his dismal self esteem for all this time.
i'll not have another (planned) baby - 40 this year, no prospects for having whoopee, iud in place, had a classical section...but woudn't slam the door on adoption.
Posted by: marci | August 14, 2008 at 07:01 PM
I'm not a parent yet, but I have had talks with my mom about this very thing, and while I know she loves us all equally, I also know she regrets how she handled things with my older sister, her second daughter.
Someone else has mentioned it upthread - my mom now admits that she had really unrealistic expectations for her second baby. Her first was a girl, the light of her life, and *extremely* eager to please (her whole life, actually - my sister is the only one of my mom's four kids who got grounded only once. And that was for missing the bus). When second sis came along, my mom was hoping for a boy, and was thrown by how difficult her new girl was. Also? My sister has my mom's personality, which is not exactly easy-going. So they clashed quite a bit from the get go, and my mom now regrets her "silly" expectations and the fact that she's always had more trouble with my sister. I was born six years later, after my mom had two miscarriages, so by that point, she was just happy to have a live baby, and was really into attachment parenting by then. And my younger brother was a "happy accident."
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that even if you love your kids equally, which I know my mom does, having unrealistic expectations seems to really seep through into how well you adjust to the second. My sister is now the least close member of our family (although she and I get along great when we see each other), the only one living more than a day's drive away, and the only one who seems to have just the teensiest inferiority complex about her place in the family. Part of that I'm sure is due to personality, and the fact that she and my mom are so similar - i.e., independent. But my mom and brother clash a lot, too, and he is still very close to her. So I also suspect that my sister felt a second-best vibe from the beginning, and I wonder if she'd have stayed closer to family if that hadn't been the case. The biggest bummer is that my mom really *doesn't* love any one of us better and has a lot of pride in all her kids - I just don't know if my sister will ever fully believe that.
Posted by: anonsomemore | August 14, 2008 at 07:11 PM
@marci and libby: Please also tell your older one at some point why there's such a space. My dad is the older, and 5 years older than his younger brother. They have never been close. A few years ago we were at the dinner table with my grandmother, and she mentioned that she'd wanted to have her children with a 3-year gap between them, but "it didn't work out that way, and I was lucky to have two at all." My dad looked at her, and said, "Really?" All these years my dad had thought that his parents had a baby to replace him when he went away to Kindergarten, because they didn't like him anymore since he was a big kid. Even when he was old enough to figure out that it couldn't have been the case, he still carried that hurt around with him. Hearing that broke my heart.
Posted by: Moxie | August 14, 2008 at 07:35 PM
I don't know what was going on with the dynamics of my own family but my mother clearly enjoyed spending time with my younger sister more than me. Divorced when I was 5 and my sister was 2 1/2, it was just the three of us growing up. They are STILL two peas in a pod and I'm the third wheel. Such is life I guess, I was always the more independent one.
We've been tossing around the idea of having another baby. Our DD is now on the verge of 15 months so we'd wait at least a year to start trying. I want her to have siblings so they can be there for each other. My fear is they end up with a horrible relationship like the one I have with my own sister. Hopefully our parenting skills can ward that off.
Incidentally, a great tip I read in a parenting magazine on how to handle two kids crying at once (if one is an infant)...
Handle the older child first, because he or she will remember the incident. The infant won't even know it happened.
Posted by: Sarah | August 14, 2008 at 08:08 PM
I have a boy and a girl who are 15 months apart. The older just turned two. I truly love both of them equally, but may be particularly annoyed or pleased with one or the other on any one day. (After all, who doesn't get annoyed with their husband from time to time? Why should it be different with children?) I do think there is something a little bit unique about the relationship with a first child, something particularly intense and vulnerable because you learn so much together. Whenever I have nightmares about illnesses or dreadful accidents, they involve my first child. I don't think that is necessarily a negative. My relationship with my second may be a bit less intense, but it is more relaxed, self assured and maybe mature. I somehow seem to have an easier time accepting her for who she is rather than imposing my own feelings on her.
When the baby was very young, I often had a hard time focusing on both kids at the same time. I guess it took me a while to learn how to multitask emotionally. I really craved uninterrupted time with each of them, and thanks to a lot of help I was able to divide up my day to some extent (with some nursing breaks). There were times when my toddler seemed like a bit much, too loud, too messy, too threatening. I missed the ability to cocoon myself with the baby. (Especially because parenting a newborn was so much more effortless the second time around.) My husband ended up spending a lot of time with our toddler, which really enhanced their relationship.
Now that both kids are a bit older, I enjoy their interactions tremendously. The older one had a very easy adjustment with minimal jealousy and the younger one adores him. I actually don't find it that much harder to have two right now.
Bedtime has definitely always been our biggest challenge. We now have a good routine that involves some TV for the older while I put the younger to bed. (When my husband gets home in time he entertains the older instead.) But when they were younger, we took it one night at a time. I tried to fit the baby into the routine as much as possible, but sometimes she ended up crying for a little bit while I put her brother to bed.
My biggest recommendation is to work on good sleeping habits and a good bedtime routine with the older well before the younger arrives.
Posted by: Lisa | August 14, 2008 at 08:41 PM
My daughter's 2.5 and my son is 2 months. Having 2 at the same time is DEFINITELY more challenging than just one. But it's doable. Sometimes one or the other just has to fuss for a few minutes while you tend to the more immediate need.
My daughter is learning the computer, so she can keep herself occupied for a while playing games on the Nick Jr. site. There's also TV (sigh). And playdoh, which (when set up in the kitchen) can be relatively un-supervised for short periods of time. I also ask her to help me when I'm taking care of the baby, which occupies her. She can fetch blankets, keep up with passies, even hold the bottle (though that's more of a joint effort). She likes to feel involved and I can keep tabs on what she's doing.
Posted by: Amy | August 14, 2008 at 10:02 PM
I have two girls, now 6 & almost 3. The hardest part of my second daughter's infancy was my first daughter. She was an early and articulate speaker, which meant that she could tell me exactly how she felt about #2--I'd rather not have known!
I love them both, but I like #2 so much more. She's generally very easygoing, and we are similar in many ways, so I "get" her. I also agree with what someone else said up thread about how being a mom already made it easier to love #2. . . I spent lots of #1's infancy adjusting to life as a mom, and for #2, the pregnancy was much less about me and more about the baby--it was really easier to comprehend what was coming. Her infancy was unbelievably easy for me.
Coping mechanisms: loved the tv for naptime, but I also just toted #2 along with me, and she was mostly quite fine. When they got older & #2 had structured nap, #1 was patient b/c she knew that naptime would be our special "Mommy/#1 time". I also did a lot of loud and obvious "#2, I'll help you in a minute, I need to help #1 first" b/c it's not like #2 understood words yet, anyway. And with #2 I already had established some mommy friends, so there was support. If you're overwhelmed, tell a friend. It is usually pretty easy to help someone else, especially if your kids play already, and then the helper feels good, too.
I can understand how people want tons of kids. We rolled the dice twice and got two entirely different and wonderfully lovable, smart, adorable children. It makes you wonder what other combinations you could come up with. . . .
Posted by: anonymommy | August 14, 2008 at 10:55 PM
This makes me think maybe (when she's older) I need to be sure dd knows why she is an only. Kids are weird, and seem to think everything is their fault. Truth is, I was 40 when she was born. She is a perfect, beautiful, smart girl and we are so blessed to have her we dont need/want another. I would assume she would know this, but maybe I need to be Sure she knows this.
Posted by: Anne | August 14, 2008 at 11:01 PM
I am expecting #5 in December, and wanted to mention that in our family it got much easier to add a new baby after #2. The arrival of #2 was enormously difficult, but #3 and #4 just slid right in. (Some of that was having extra pairs of small hands willing to hold a peaceful baby for a few minutes while I settled the toddler, or to "read" Goodnight Gorilla to the toddler if the baby was fussing and needed me.)
This is a suggestion with limited usefulness, but tandem nursing has worked really well in our family almost all the time. I thought I might lose my mind in the early weeks of trying to tandem-nurse the first two, but then matters improved dramatically. It's an effective way to get two little ones to sleep at the same time. It's a concrete way to say to the older one, "I'm still just as much your mama."
Here's another granola suggestion, FWIW: wearing a baby to sleep in a sling has worked well for me if I am on my own at bedtime. I can put on some music and dance with the toddler while the motion eases the baby to sleep. If the baby is wakeful and the toddler needs some help getting to sleep, it sometimes works to walk in circles next to the toddler's bed, singing to him while the baby hangs out in the sling.
My first three children all gave up their naps when the next baby arrived. I got too exasperated trying to make naptime work, and they were all just about ready to go napless. I was pleasantly surprised, when my oldest stopped napping, to see that it wasn't as exhausting as I had expected to have a child who didn't nap anymore. Yes, it meant an end to that quiet midday interlude, but it also meant a 7pm bedtime.
I will pass along a suggestion I heard when my second was brand new. When the baby is deeply asleep enough that you can lay him down, do. And say, in your older child's hearing, "Baby, it's time for you to take a little nap by yourself. Your big brother needs his mama all to himself for a little while, and that's important." Does it make a difference? No idea, but I want to do all I can to let the older sibling know that his needs will always be important to me.
Posted by: CJ | August 14, 2008 at 11:28 PM
I have three kids: 8, 6, and 1. Here's my take on this.
1. Was scared to death I wouldn't love #2, but I actually found it easier to connect to her in the early days than I did her elder brother b/c I was so much more relaxed. I had no fears about loving #3. I knew it would come. It did.
2. I don't recall how I handled the "newborn with a toddler" stage. My ex-husband traveled a lot and I was alone with them about 50% of the time. I must have blocked out the trauma. ;)
3. Newborn with older kids can be equally as tricky. I did a lot of "Give me just one minute to get the baby to sleep and then we can do X." This doesn't usually work with a 2 yr old, but it worked with the older ones when #3 came along. I also pushed aside #3's needs more than I did the older ones. Even if I knew the baby needed to nap, I might put it off 10-15 minutes to finish doing something with one of the older ones. A newborn has a shorter memory than a 7 yr old!
4. Love. Love. Love. Do I love all three equally? Yes. But I love them differently. Each of them has qualities that drive me bonkers. And each has traits that endear them to me. My relationship with each one is unique, special, and unconditional. Do I *like* them equally each day? Nope (having a 15 month old who has hit the terrible twos is particularly trying right now). But I figure the "like" will all even out in the end. Just about the time the baby hits the golden kindergarten years, big brother will turn 13 with middle sister not far behind. God help me!
Posted by: Amy | August 15, 2008 at 12:50 AM
I am the eldest of five girls and my mother always said whoever did the most housework was the one she loved the best. :)
In truth I think my mum loves girls #3 and #4 the best. I left the country and was always quite independent, and #2 has had two kids which she basically ignores, and #5 is adopted but heaps younger than the rest of us... I think #3 and #4 by dint of being THERE, and more adult, and not actively being crazy, are who she loves best now.
But she did always say she WANTED to have me the most, because I was the first, and that is an important distinction.
And look, as a child of a difficult mother and a big family, it's not a big deal. I get it and I don't mind that I'm not the favorite... I think my mum tried, and she didn't always do a great job but she loved us and she did her best. Even though we clash I love my mother. And she loves me. And I KNOW she wants to chuck me out a window sometimes. It's life.
I wouldn't worry, for all of you lovely mums of two (or two to be, or ten, or whatever). Love isn't automatic anyway. It's something you have to work on your WHOLE life. And sometimes for some people in your family, it' s always a work in progress. Chins up lads and ladies!
Even the most difficult and headstrong kids (like ME) come good in the end. :)
Posted by: Jennis | August 15, 2008 at 02:42 AM
@anon38, we've got the reverse case - one of the twins preferred DH, from early on. She wasn't as happy with me as she was with him. The world was right if he was holding her, and it was good enough if I was. So... yeah, we tend to divide that direction a bit, but it was from a different source. I've seen your situation so often, though, I'm surprised your multiples club didn't seem to understand.
Posted by: hedra | August 15, 2008 at 06:09 AM
haven't read all comments - sorry if i repeat anything.
my kids are 20 mths apart 2.5 and 11mths.
first one a girl, true love at first cry amazing. second one a boy, surprise pregnancy, failed vbac, unchartered territory with a boy, a surprise redhead, no immediate feeling of love, not super cute (at first), just detached feelings in general, PPD/anxiety.
but he also had a medical problem that we thought might require surgery at 6 months. the reality of having our little baby in surgery i think made me clearly feel/see the love i did have for him. he was a tiny little precious being that i loved and wanted to protect.
in my experience with baby #1 it was so magical, so new and crazy exciting and with #2 i had some experience so it felt a little more grounded and real...
the great thing now i find is that love with my kids is kind of like waves, there are days with big powerful swells and then calm still days where it is just subtle and not as overwhelming...but still there.
Posted by: anonmama | August 15, 2008 at 09:32 AM
I was a second child and my mother never bonded with me. It sucked.
Will never ever have a second child- DD is great but I could very often take or leave the whole mom thing. A second child would make me intensely unhappy.
Posted by: anon | August 15, 2008 at 09:54 AM
My first daughter confronted to get her way. My second daughter intently observed the consequences of that choice and decided charm was a much better strategy. She was about 15 before I realized she got her way infinitely more than her combative sister.
Second children learn social skills that serve them spectacularly well as adults.
Posted by: Matriarch | August 15, 2008 at 10:05 AM
I have noticed when I call one daughter by another daughter's name, the misnamed daughter is behaving in the way that daughter drives me round the twist.
With 5 younger brothers and 4 daughters, I have always been aware that child psychology and most parenting advice neglect the tremendous effect of sibling relationships. Their sisters have shaped my daughters as much as their parents have.
Posted by: Matriarch | August 15, 2008 at 10:09 AM
@Libby - my younger sister and I are 6.5y apart. I was mom's helper and loved her immensely from the start. As a teenager, she got on my nerves. Now, we are the best of friends and she actually cares for my 1 y.o. daughter - I couldn't be luckier. Hoping for #2, don't want them too far apart but have to get around to trying...
Posted by: jennyG | August 15, 2008 at 10:09 AM
I have two, a boy just 3, and a girl 13mo. The first 6 weeks were AWFUL, the first 6 months challenging, and it is gradually getting better.
My experience of loving them has been coloured considerably by PPD. My son I took a LONG time to bond with (at least 18mo) and he is a challenging soul, and extremely bright. You can't get anything past him, or con him - he knows what he wants and won't be appeased. I had a traumatic (emergency C section) birth with him and didn't hold him for 24hrs, which I think had a large impact on our bonding. But I adore him despite his contraryness, and admire his spirit.
I was still depressed when I had my daughter (she was planned in a general sense, but we were not prepared for how fast she actually arrived!). However I strived for a natural birth which I got, and actually caught her and held her for a good few hours before anyone took her away from me (they did her apgar on my chest). I bonded immediately with her and had the rush of love I didn't have first time round. But because of undiagnosed silent reflux and an infection from the 3rd degree tear I had during her birth, I really found that I was very much resentful of her for at least 6 months (before the reflux was sorted out by our osteopath). I also resented her for the impact (negative) on my son, who was (and is) very aggressive and negative towards his baby sister (unless someone is threatening her, in which case he runs to her rescue!).
Things are just about evening out now she is a year old. She is adorable, I am seeing her 'cute' stage that I missed in my son because of the PPD, which helps. Things are still tough with my son as he is 3 going on 15 and can be very challenging. Because he is so bright I forget quite often that he is only 3 . Also my daughter is very easy going. But I love them both equally - just differently.
My sister and I were 2.2yrs apart, and there was a lot of favouritism in our family - my dad now only talks to my sister, and my mum only to me. My parents showed obvious preference, which can be so damaging that it has made my sister so resentful that she doesn't feel that she can be part of a family any longer.
It saddens me as it isn't a good model for my children that parents can be so partisan. I may love my children differently, but only because they are very different people. I make sure they each get 1to1 time with me in equal measures. My friend has 6 children (some natural, some adopted, some fostered) and she said that the most important thing is 1 to 1 time, and not to treat them exactly the same if it isn't in their interests to do so (all her kids went to different schools, etc).
Posted by: jen | August 15, 2008 at 10:51 AM
I have a 4 year-old girl and 2-year-old boy, 23 months apart. They're actually closer to 5 and 3 (Fall babies).
My daughter has been Daddy's girl her entire life, from day one. Occasionally the Most Favored Parent needle edges my way, but she always cried for him at night, when she got a boo-boo, etc. I am mostly not bothered by it (and hey, got way more sleep that second year, post-nursing!) but I know she and I are not as close as he and she are.
My boy, to complete the Oedipal cliche, is very attached to me. He was an easier nurser (though of course it helps that I knew what I was doing by then) and an overall mellower little person.
I love them both, but I acknowledge the difference in how bonded they are to us. And they really really love each other, which is awesome. I have a sister 13 months younger than I and we are close, and a good, close sibling relationship is what I want most for my kids. I was never afraid I would love one more than the other, and because my first was so close to her Daddy, I'm not sure I really felt like I would lose any special one-on-one time, because it wasn't there to lose.
Post-partum advice: The best I got was to tend the emotional needs of the toddler and the physical needs of the baby. So I might have been nursing the baby, but I would be talking to the toddler, or reading books with her, or interacting while she played.
Posted by: cori | August 15, 2008 at 11:45 AM
For those worried about loving #2 as much as you love #1. I found it's the same as thinking about how differently you love your husband from how you love your current child(ren). You don't love them the SAME but you love them EQUALLY.
Also? I use the tele a lot. Thank gods for Noggin and Sprout all-preschool-all-the-time. No, it's not always on, but it's awesome having the option because two unruly boys are two too many.
It took me longer to really love #2, than #1. Different birth circumstances aside, I was more tired and worn and stretched thin and loving someone is so much harder under those circumstances. We bonded eventually, and the love came too. It's hard...so hard...at first, but you adapt.
Posted by: Kelly | August 15, 2008 at 01:08 PM
Two kids, 4 and 2.
A lot of this feels familiar, the seesawing is really perfect. I tend to like #2 better, but I feel that #1 tends to shine (behaviorally speaking; I see all the whining, tantrums, and irrationality) apart from #2, and so grandparents, camp counselors, etc, etc. get to see the best. Because #2 is kind of attached to my hip.
Anyway, it took us 2.5 yrs to conceive #1. I loved #1 from the womb. Seriously. When we found out about #2, I was devastated. Based on our prior history I did not expect to conceive as readily as we did--it was completely accidental, in my mind, because the almost-ecological breastfeeding should have been ok birth control. (Um, no. My bad.)
I spent my whole second pregnancy thinking that I was ruining my baby's toddlerhood, although a sib was important in the grand scheme of things, but later. Then when we found out the gender of #2 I was devastated all over again, because somehow the close age gap could have been justified if #2 were the opposite gender. (@ Andrea2...I've been there. It took me the rest of my pregnancy to get over it.)
Then #2 was born. And looked EXACTLY like #1 had at birth. And I was smitten. And guilty that I had such outrageously awful feelings for my entire pregnancy. So I think I've been softer on #2 the entire time to make up for that. #1 was more of a textbook baby in terms of nursing and napping and all that; if I had had #2 (a "snacker") first I would have been a fretful disaster, but instead I just relied on various slings and shrugged and let naps happen whenever and nursing in public? BTDT.
Really, though, #1 is getting the brunt of all of my parenting mistakes. And I think I expect too much maturity. Lots of times I want to just scream "Grow up already!" It was only very recently--and mostly because my husband told me I had to--that I stopped assuming that #1 was the aggressor when they started to bicker. #2 is 2 now, and all the limit testing and obnoxiousness is coming to the fore--so honestly some days I don't like that much either.
It is hard to be patient. I still don't sleep nearly enough because I have a lot of stuff going on that has to be done while the kids are sleeping (after 9pm and before 7am). I rarely get naps and my parenting really suffers after 2-3pm.
When they were little and both napped: lots of PBS Kids for #1 (thankfully born a TV addict). I could often get the afternoon nap of #2 to overlap with the nap of #1 for at least an hour and that was pretty much the saving grace of my life for fall 2006-summer 2007. But there was probably a lot of fussing too, which I've blocked out, apparently.
It took a long time for the kids to play together, but around when #2 turned 2 (#1 turned 4 soon after) they started doing really well. There is often bickering, but sometimes it's terrific creative play, building with Legos, etc. #2 will not play with other 2 year olds, but a couple of 4 year olds bossing around #2 is great fun.
Posted by: anonforthisone | August 15, 2008 at 01:49 PM
I absolutely adored #1, but trusted I would love another baby. When #2 came, I loved him helplessly, totally, so much that I let my husband mostly take care of our daughter while I cared for the baby. After all, I was nursing, my husband had never cared for a newborn, etc... Now, 10 months later, my daughter is more attached to my husband than she is to me, I still enjoy my baby more (my 3-year-old is in a very whiny patch), and I feel awash with guilt about it. I hope it'll all even out. I'm working on it -- trading bedtime routines, making cookies with my daughter, and so forth. The problems you never think you'll have!
Posted by: anon for this | August 15, 2008 at 01:57 PM
I've read most of these posts and have just a little to say. I've observed three couples where the parents seemed unable to love one or another of their children. In one case, it was the first child, who broke up the husband's intense devotion to his wife, who needed intense devotion. The child's mother seemed always annoyed with her daughter. The birth of the second seemed to make things better, actually. In the second case, the first child resembled the husband, the second the wife. She hated her husband and her first child. She divorced her husband and gave him custody of the first child. Ugly. The third was a couple who had more than four children. The mother had a pretty cold eye when it came to the faults of her children and you didn't have to be psychic to see that she preferred some to others. The Point: the fault was in the size of the parents's hearts, not the size of the families.
Posted by: Num Num | August 15, 2008 at 03:00 PM
New mom to 2 kids here! They are 2 yrs. and 2 mos. apart, to the day. My 2 year old is spunky, borderline spirited. The baby seems to be more mellow, and that makes all the difference.
I had both kids to myself for a weekend recently, and the key to maintaining sanity and actually enjoying the time was planning regular activities for me and the 2yo AND wearing the baby a lot. Bedtime was more challenging. I bathed my 2yo while wearing the baby in a wrap (not a sling, but a wrap). I did his bedtime "stuff" with her in the wrap. The only time things were tough was when she woke up hungry. She fortunately did not wake during the bath, so I got through my son's bedtime stuff quickly and nursed her while reading stories to my son. It wasn't ideal, but it worked.
And I think that last line is what makes managing 2 kids easier or possible. I stop trying for the ideal when I have both of them awake. I do the best I can with them and accept that what I can give them will have to be good enough. If one of them REALLY needs something right then and there, then the other one has to wait. Again, it's not perfect, but it is life.
To that point, my daughter got a bit sick on that same weekend. I ended up calling a sitter during my son's nap, whispering to my sleeping boy that I would see him at dinner time, and then driving an entirely too long distance to the doctor. My son had to wait for my attention, and that was lousy. My daughter would have to wait if my son were sick or injured, and that would be lousy too. It's just life.
As a new mom to 2, I find that I muddle through and try to learn from the muddling.
Posted by: Jennifer | August 15, 2008 at 03:29 PM
I have 2 boys, 22 months apart. Younger is almost 4 months now. Neither of them captured my real love at birth - instinct love, yes, keep-it-alive-it's-mine love but not the real deep love I started to feel for son 1 at the 4 - 5 month mark. I love them for different reasons but I don't think I could ever quantify it - I love #1's great verbal skills and #2's great eyebrows, for example.
I definitely have days where I prefer one over the other and days when I would prefer both of them to leave (that's today) - I expect that with so many personalities and developmental stages in play this is pretty normal. Some days are better than others and I am surprised at how exhausted I am but I have been using "one day at a time" as my mantra and lo, almost 17 weeks of this double duty has gone by.
Practically: it was so very valuable to have help in the first month, mainly someone to pay attention to #1 because I wasn't capable of it...dad took a month off work. I don't recommend having anyone help you out by paying attention to the older child unless that person and your toddler are very familiar with each other..we had grandparents come from out of town and they tried to help, taking #1 to the park etc. but he hadn't seen them in 6 months and wouldn't leave my side, went into deep separation anxiety mode for the whole 2 weeks. That sucked.
Infant hangs out on the floor / in bouncy chair / on the boob while i read stories before naptime. By bedtime, daddy's home & we split the duties. Infant also has his morning nap in the ergo carrier while me & toddler hang at the park. I do fear winter (it rains for 6 months here) but - one day at a time.
I've taken to viewing this whole "2 kids" thing as an investment. I like to close my eyes when they're being terrible and screaming at the same time and imagine them at 22 and 24, having beer and talking about how crazy I am. That makes me smile. For now.
Posted by: cheesefairy | August 15, 2008 at 05:26 PM
Oh and also: TV / dvds. We walk to the library and he picks out a couple a week. When younger was wee and needed to be bounced to sleep every time, I'd bounce on the yoga ball in the living room while elder watched his movie.
Posted by: cheesefairy | August 15, 2008 at 05:35 PM
I don't know if I'm "allowed" to comment on this one, since I don't fit any of your suggestions for helping out here, Moxie, but after reading that the comments were freaking people expecting #2 out, I thought I'd bring a little sunshine.
I was truly terrified of #2 ruining #1's life. Could not imagine loving anyone as much as I loved #1, *and* wondered how I could ever handle 2, because 1 was so hard. I truly hated my little brother for years. I was #1, he was #2, and I felt he ruined my life. Man, I made his life miserable for years, and really regret how I treated him. Anyway...
#2 came along, and even after a forced 20 hour separation from him after birth, I loved him! I definitely didn't know him as well, and I will say I was not nearly as worried about never letting him cry--but I chalk that up to not being able to spend all my time just looking at him, and being an experienced mom instead of a new one. Time has enabled me to know him better.
I was shocked that I was easily able to love them both, the first just as much as ever, and the second so fully--who would have thought my heart was that big? Well, I did love the cat a little less...so maybe that's where all the room came from? ;)
They were 31 months apart, so they don't fall in to the close together realm. #1 has always needed a lot of help going to sleep, but she seemed to figure things out, and understood that #2 needed help more than she did when I had to put her off for a bit to meet his needs.
She lost the "center of my world" title, but now they're both the center of my world. And I think it's actually good for her not to be so important...if that makes sense--I think that just fostered a selfishness and pride that aren't really healthy.
I still constantly stress about being a good mom to both of them--but I feel such an overwhelming love for them--I'm still amazed. And as for fearing I wouldn't love #2 as much--there are definitely some days he's my favorite--that seesaw analogy was perfect!
I love them both as much as the other, but I don't treat them the same. And though I don't know their innermost thoughts, I definitely think they both feel just as loved as they need and desire.
All that to say, take heart expectant second -time parents, your hearts have room for one more!
Posted by: jenne | August 15, 2008 at 07:12 PM
I read a book while doing my Master's (The Essential Conversation by Sarah Lightfoot Lawrence) that was about teaching and not bringing the ghosts of your educational past into the classroom as a teacher, especially if those ghosts are negative. Same thing applies to parenting. Did you have a negative experience as a second/first/whatever child?
Also, I've found that there are three criteria for "more" kids (whatever that may be--if you can "choose" to get pregnant): are you physically, emotionally and financially ready? Not that everything is perfect in those areas, but are you prepared?
I found with #2 that I wasn't ready for it emotionally in that #1 was so self-entertaining and so I had lots of "me" time. With #2 I had to watch when she got mobile that #1 didn't push her over, snatch toys away from her, hit her etc.
As for my situation, took 4.5 years of emotionally draining trying to get pregnant before #1 arrived. After an intense and 30 hour labor with four hours pushing, he arrived. Then we were both so exhausted that nursing was a disaster. I found myself getting angry and resenting him and freaked out that I was experiencing that motherly bond. Thankfully, after a lot of work on nursing and bonding, things are better (except now I find myself annoyed that he bops his sister a lot).
My favorite book on this whole situation is I Love You the Purplest (by Barbara Joose, I think). It's about loving each kid in a different way. They aren't the same and that's a really good thing.
Posted by: Liss | August 15, 2008 at 07:23 PM
So for those of you who felt like it wasn't "that bad" to add a newborn to a family with a toddler... did you feel like you really had a handle on things when you just had the toddler???
I'm scared to have another because my 1st is 19 months old and my house is still a mess and he still naps usually in the car because I just can't get it to work otherwise. We JUST started sleeping through the night more often than not in the last month or so. So I feel like I'm just not that organized or successful with having it all "together". Although my son is happy and healthy and smart and funny.... I worry more that this house is going to fall apart and my husband is going to resent it (and I'm going to feel like an even bigger failure)...
Does that make sense? I guess my question is - are any of you non type A super moms out there? How did it go when you had #2???
Posted by: Jill | August 16, 2008 at 02:00 AM
I've just been re-reading all the comments--everyone had such interesting insights!
@Jill, I just wanted to address your concern about the house thing. I am actually pretty type A, so the sense of "failure" was with me and not so much in my family's eyes. But still. I know it's not always realistic for people, but I hired a cleaning lady for 6 months. Just to come once a month, so people didn't stick to the floor. (In my own defense, I had a C-section, so I wasn't supposed to do a lot of cleaning, plus I had to pump-&-feed b/c I was unable to nurse, so baby and self care took WAY more time than normal.) But it helped, because I knew there was always an "end" in sight (e.g. "in 2 more weeks this will all be clean...")
Also, keep in mind that there will always be some stage #1 goes through that will be challenging to think about with another. Once he's been sleeping great for a while, then he'll be potty training. Then he'll be in preschool, so how to you manage that schedule with a newborn. In other words, there will always be some sort of thing to work around. But it usually comes together. What you have to remember is that specific problems will arise and you can deal with them when they do (probably here!) But for now, it sounds like you're almost afraid of the unknown (something I struggled with). It gets easier, really.
Posted by: Simone | August 16, 2008 at 02:13 PM
Mother of an only chiming in, here -- I obviously can't speak to the loving a second child the same as the first. That said, speaking from my own experience growing up in a family with two kids, I think the major issue is treating siblings in such a way that they perceive the parental love to be equal. (Notice I didn't say treat the sibs the same -- kids are different and need different things, obviously).
I think that's gotta be tricky, because as a lot of posters have said, sometimes parents understand one child better than the other(s) just because of personality compatibility, and therefore enjoys being that child's parent more. That compatibility/enjoyment can be read by all the kids as one child being loved more than the other(s), which can develop into a real issue in terms of the overall family dynamic. My mom and I are alike as peas in a pod personality-wise, and my sister is very, very different -- my mom did her dead-level best to show that we were (and are) loved equally, but frankly that situation led to some challenges in all three relationships (mom-me, sis-mom, me-sis). I don't have an answer as to how to prevent such issues, but being aware is a good start.
Posted by: Shelley | August 16, 2008 at 04:33 PM
@Simone - we already have a cleaning service that comes every 2 weeks. Sigh...
Posted by: Jill | August 16, 2008 at 06:07 PM
Hastening to edit myself -- rather than saying "therefore enjoys being that child's parent more," what I shoulda said is "therefore *has an easier time* parenting that child." That's much closer to what I mean.
Posted by: Shelley | August 16, 2008 at 06:59 PM
It may seem crazy, but I have a 7wk old and a 2.5 y/o and when I brought #2 home, I found that I absolutely could not pay attention to my older daughter. Like some crazy bonding drug was taking hold and forcing me to focus on the new one, and only her. It's abated somewhat, and I am getting back some of that intimacy with my first, but I feel enormous guilt over it. And holy hell, the second one is so colicky and big sister is a trooper for putting up with it all. There is much great advice above, I'll just add that at the near-2-month mark, things are SO much better.
Posted by: Ellen | August 16, 2008 at 10:50 PM
On the 'easier to parent the ones you understand' thing... I've been thinking about this, and there's another factor involved beyond 'understand' - it's 'trust' (for me, anyway). Even though I don't really UNDERSTAND one of my kids, I trust in that child, have faith that we'll carry on and work our way through and that I'll be open to what is needed, and since I'm not in perfect attunement I try to ask about what is needed, and respond the best I can. There's a difference there between that and what my mom did with my sister who she also 'did not get', which was to throw up her hands in defeat and stop attending because it seemed to get her nowhere. I don't expect that attending WILL get me anywhere, I just trust my child to eventually let me know what does and doesn't work. I refuse to take it personally (okay, most of the time!), or feel guilty, or feel too bad about it (granted, it helps that others have observed the same thing!). When I'm really stumped, it's uncomfortable, but I always end up back at 'I trust'. I hope that works out - we'll see. I think it at least balances the 'I don't understand' part, and allows the love to show.
Posted by: hedra | August 17, 2008 at 10:40 AM
Oh yes, so timely. I'm a mere 9 weeks along with #2, we've been trying for a while to make a sibling for our dd who is now 19 months. I feel like she's already getting the neglected end of the mommy stick, I'm so tired and queasy! Fortunately we just got a cat and she is in 7th heaven with her new best friend. Noggin channel had been doing some extra shifts, and I do feel guilty about that.
I'm not concerned about loving one more than another, she was such a colicky monster the first several months and is now so much fun- I'm ready. I would like #2 to not be such a doppleganger of dad, can I have my own mini me?
Posted by: beth | August 17, 2008 at 11:31 AM
As an older sister to a younger brother, who was always the favorite and remains so (I refer to him as "the Golden Child" behind his back because he can do NO WRONG, yes I am mature) I'm sort of terrified of repeating that dynamic in my own home, especially since #1 is a girl and #2 is a boy. However, I find myself favoring my daughter if I favor either, because she is JUST like me and I get her a lot easier than I get him--of course, he's just turning six months old so there's not a lot to "get." And she is just a stronger personality, so I find myself (and everybody else) paying a lot more attention to her.
As far as love, I am struck by how different it is. My oldest is like this remarkable, funny, character and my love for her is so mixed with amazement and pride to see what she's like. My son, there was just this amazing, joyful love for him the minute I laid eyes on him--although I was very ambivalent about a second child and how I would possibly handle this my whole pregnancy. Now that he's here, I am crazy about him and feel like there was a him-shaped hole in our family I didn't know was there until he came.
Of course right now having two is kicking my ass and my three year old is making me crazy so what the hell do I know.
Posted by: Amy | August 17, 2008 at 03:33 PM
Such a great post. My favorite comments are from the ones who have grown children. How aware you seem! I wish my parents were too. They unfortunately had far too much on their plate. I say if you have any kind of ambivalence, it's probably normal, but it's worth talking it out. It's definitely worth getting help if the emotions become too strong (for you). If my parents had only done this in some form or other, my sib and I would be on better terms today.
Posted by: Q | August 17, 2008 at 04:40 PM
About the favouritism thing... I'm the oldest of five children, I was 18 months when my brother was born, 5 when the next one came, then 8 and 14. My youngest brother was 6 when I moved away for college, so I have never been at home without children in the house. Add to the mix that my father's job took him away for months at a time... now, I honestly cannot understand how my mom got through this, and working full-time as well (although I do seem to remember her taking time off when we were really young).
Does having this many children come at a cost? Absolutely. I didn't realise it when I was a child myself, but now I look back at my childhood and I see how incredibly much I didn't get, that I could have. There was very little one-on-one time, and when I was going through a crisis at school (bullying) no one really had the time or effort to try to deal with it. Oh, they tried, but nothing changed. Needless to say, I don't have a very strong bond with my parents today, although we're trying to work on it. I also had a lot of responsibilities around the house, with babysitting and housework, that my friends my age didn't have. They often questioned why I had to go home and help out as soon as I was done school ("they're not your children") but for me it wasn't a question. There was work to be done; diapers to be changed, dinner to be prepared, babies to bathe and put down for a nap, laundry to be folded. And so it was my responsibility to do it.
But do I think it was worth it? Absolutely. This meant that I have four younger siblings, some of which I have a very good relationship with, and the others will hopefully come later. (My brother who is 18 months younger than I am and I don't really speak... not because we hate each other, we just live far apart and don't have much to talk about.) I cannot imagine life without my sisters, or my youngest brother. They're living breathing human beings with their own personalities, hopes and dreams today, and I wouldn't have it any other way. (Although I fear that my parents' workaholicism has made me a total perfectionist who has a very hard time to relax. I always feel like there's work to be done!)
Am I planning to have five children myself? No way in hell. But can I imagine only having one child, with no siblings? Absolutely not.
So, I hope that helps someone considering whether or not to have a large family...
Posted by: anemone | August 17, 2008 at 05:16 PM