Taking your kids out in public

I thought we needed a kind of trivial post for today to lighten the mood.

Last night I was at a restaurant here in San Antonio, and there was a family at a nearby table with a mom, dad, and four kids. The oldest kid was maybe 8, and the youngest looked around three.

When they walked in, I thought, "Those parents are going to have a handful during this meal." But no. Those kids were calm and happy the entire time, and talked and entertained themselves and each other while they waited for their food, then ate happily. The two littlest ones started to get antsy about 5 minutes before they got their check, which was amazing timing.

I was going to talk to the parents to tell them how cute their kids were and also ask them what their secret was, but I went to the bathroom and by the time I got back they were gone. So I was thinking about it all night, and realized that was was striking wasn't that the kids were "well-behaved" but that they seemed genuinely content, and like they were enjoying each other. The parents were super-calm about the whole process, and the kids got to choose what they wanted to eat from the kids' menu, and seemed to really understand the restaurant thing. (Which goes back to my theory that you have to press through the crappy restaurant stage if you want to get your kids used to being able to eat in restaurants.)

I got the feeling that the parents had expectations and boundaries, and the kids were used to those but were treated as people within those boundaries.

I wanted to tell this story first of all because I love seeing happy families, but also because I wanted to tell those of you with kids who are going through the not-fit-for-public-consumption phase that it will get better. Follow your instincts and keep the appropriate boundaries, and get their drinks in cups with lids.

Anyone else see any good parenting this week? Have any problems with your kids in public?

Comments

[Tzipporah]

"accept that meals out will be devoted to teaching/modeling correct behavior. Give up on the fantasy that you can enjoy a margarita while staring into space or having a witty conversation with your partner."

AHA! So THAT was the problem... going out to dinner is apparently just another time when we have to play Parent, instead of getting to be ourselves. Ugh.

Frankly, I'm amazed at people who have the energy to be good parents 24/7. We do the best we can, but sometimes, I just want to leave the (adorable) little s**t at home.

[Maria Wood]

@jb: Appetizers, baby. Smaller portions, and they come out faster. If she's done with an appetizer before I get my food I can always share mine with her.

This is a very timely post for me. P has been a frequent and fairly accomplished restaurant goer (age-appropriately accomplished, of course) since she was an infant. At age 4.5 we have gone through the messy stage, the go-outside-as-much-as-possible stage, the constant reminders about 'restaurant voice' stage – and are not necessarily done with any or all of these stages (the really bad messiness is largely behind us I think).

Today we went out to lunch and ran into my grandmother and cousin, who asked us to join them. My grandmother is 89 and outspoken, and has never been a little kid kind of person. She's great once you get to be about 14 but before that – she is of the 'seen and not heard' school, for sure. I love her really a lot (she's by far my most sane relation) but I am nearly always tense when I'm in the same room with her and my daughter. Different generation and all that.

I thought P was doing pretty well. She sat almost patiently through boring adult conversation with only a few quiet asides from me about not flicking her straw in and out of her lemonade (I hear you cloud!). She performed 'here is the church/here is the steeple' politely and outgoing-ly. At one point she unfolded her napkin completely …and put it on her head. My grandmother said "Napkins. belong. in. laps."

I didn't think this was such outrageous behavior. It was quiet, not messy, an attempt to engage the grownups who were rudely ignoring her. At this point I whipped out the kids magazine I had brought for the purpose and tried to divert P with it. I felt awkward and rude for reading to her at the lunch table with other people, but I felt that my choice was to be rude or to tolerate G's rudeness and frankly I wanted to avoid the meltdown I was sure was coming.

At one point in this meal, P wanted to be part of the conversation and said "excuse me, G" repeatedly,trying to get included, and G simply ignored her completely. It should be said that she is hard of hearing and may genuinely not have heard P… but she didn't have any trouble hearing me talk.

This has devolved into a family rant rather than restaurant advice, sorry!

[Joanne]

We dine out a lot. We've always loved dining out so when we had children we were determined to continue the trend. So far so good. Our oldest just turned two and we've got a brand new three-month-old. Luckily, our oldest is an adventurous eater like us but if she's feeling particularly finicky we pack a container of boiled edamame beans already shelled. She loves them. I also bring containers of her favourite fruit and of course, cheerios or other cereal. At the restaurant we order "bubble water" a.k.a. perrier or club soda for her to sip through a straw. This is a great Moxie tip and it works like a charm.
I tend not to bring along toys and crayons etc. because our kids seem more interested in interacting with the new environment and us rather than colouring or playing with familiar toys. As long as we're engaging in conversation it gets us through the meal.

[amy]

We eat out with our 4 kids fairly often. (they are 4, 2 1/2 twins and a 10 month old) I think the key is to do it early and also make it fun for them. We let them order from the menu, and play "eye spy" and other little games while we wait for our food.
We moved about 9 months ago and were travelling 3 days straight. Eating out 3 meals a day. I was dreading it but really the kids loved it. I think having boundaries that they are used to (like the same ones at home every day) and being calm makes a difference.
(I reread this and it makes me kids sound like little angels. I would like to point out, they are not :) )

[Laura]

I think everyone's covered the basics. We always try to go between the "rush" - either an early or late lunch. We also have only a couple favorite places that we go, so Sophia is more at home there - the servers all know and love her, she knows what she likes to eat, we've primed her with expectations for good behavior. Worst case scenario, she and I go do laps around the patio while Dh pays our tab. And we ALWAYS tip at LEAST 20% - sometimes more if there's a huge mess on the floor or Sophia's had a difficult time with her manners. :)

[jbq+h]

I second edamame! My 2 1/2 year old loves it when we order "beans" for her when we're out. And if they're in the pod, all the better--she loves eating them like a grown up and making her own discard pile. And a huge pile takes forever to eat.

[sue]

I have an almost four year old (she would tell you she's 3 and three quarters) and a 16 month old. The 3 year old is generally pretty good in restaurans at this point, but the 16 month old is a whole other matter. 16 months is just SUCH a difficult age for self-control! Ok, that was the understatement of the year.

Anyway, what we have found to work is to pick one or two restaurants that are really good with kids, and frequent them. There's a Korean restarant in town that is *really* quick with the edamame (the baby's favorite food) and is generally good with the kids. There's also another restaurant that's run by a religious group (Twelve Tribes). Most of my friend's won't set foot in there because it's a little "cult-ey," and they're very interested in kids. Which is exactly why I go in there! I'm not going to send my kids to live in their commune, but I really value a restaurant staff that's willing to play peek-a-boo while we wait for our food.

Our other training restaurants are buffets. We're not normally buffet-type restaurant go-ers, but there's a good Chinese buffet and a good Inian buffet in town. It let's the kids eat immediately, and they can sample small amounts of various unfamiliar foods, which increases the chance that they'll find something to like.

[Jen]

Little Lizard has been going to restaurants at least once a week since she was about two months old. She's 14 months old now, and while she's not quite up to Emily Post standards, she does well for her age.

If she throws a tantrum, though, she gets six short words and a trip to the car: "We'll talk when you calm down." (this is sometimes accompanied by a note to the server: "not a dine-and-dash, toddler throwing tantrum, brb")

Great parenting moment: I was intercepted at the park today by a mom with four kids. The youngest, who was probably somewhere from 12-18 mos. old, stood in front of my bike. He then walked around to the bike trailer and started flirting with little Lizard! The oldest child, a girl about 8 years old, ran up and said, "Excuse me! I'm sorry!" and tried to get the little boy out of the way. By then, him and Lizard were trying to hold hands through the clear plastic on the side of the trailer.

An 8-year-old who knows excuse me? and I'm sorry? and why to use them? WOW! I shouldn't be surprised by this, I'd expect the same if Lizard was 8 years old, but I'm impressed!

[violingirl]

I agree with those that said that it starts with how you eat dinner at home. We expect the same behavior at meal time whether we're eating at home, with my parents or my inlaws or out at a restaurant. Our older son will be 3 in the fall and he does really well in restaurants now. I remember a few periods of time that we didn't eat out terribly often because of a particular phase he was in (the food-flinging thing comes to mind) but we still went out.

We do try to make it easy on ourselves though. I ask the waiter to bring out the kids' food as soon as they can, we try to go early whenever possible so we won't have extra waiting time, and I bring things for our boys to keep busy with. Cars, cereal, crackers, board books for the 12 month old, and the best thing ever for my almost 3 year old- a white erase board and marker. It automatically goes anywhere we might have to sit and wait. If it gets on the table it wipes off with a napkin or kleenex and since he loves to draw so much it has been the perfect thing for him.

[Evany]

Don't treat it as time off parenting; talk to your kid. I have had to learn this one because usually restaurant time has been "me time"

This is SO true. Even when I was a childless singleton, I was on the side of the parents, and liked seeing well-behaved kids in restaurants. Meltdowns happen, and as long as the parents are prepared to cut and run, no harm no foul.

But sometimes you'll see a family where the parents who are too tired, too desperate for Me Time to interact with their kid. You can't just park your toddler in a restaurant and expect him to be entertained. If your kid is acting out and/or asking for your attention, don't pretend you don't notice. That one gets me. I know you're tired and on edge, but everyone else here is paying good money and probably doesn't want to sit through a ten-minute tantrum you're pretending to ignore.

[Evany]

Oops, the top paragraph was supposed to be a quote. Darn.

I was thinking about this some more, and about the poor little kid whose great-grandma ignored her, and I really think the families I know who do well eating out treat it as a family event- the kids aren't supposed to sit there and be silent, they're included in the conversation. My little guy isn't really at conversation stage, but I'm hoping to mimic my friends who seem to have this down.

[zenjen]

My now 18 month old son was great in restaurants from about 6 months to 16 months. At 18 months, it's more stressful to go out with him than it's worth. Not that we don't go out and employ all the previous strategies: early mealtime, activities, family friend places, etc.

He's so active and loves to run around new places that our strategy is to let him wander and explore the booth/restaurant while we wait for the food but he has to sit in the high chair to eat. While he's eating, we ask for the check so we can head out ASAP once he's done.

I've tried the take him outside/to the car when he gets tantrum-y but it doesn't seem to work yet. He could care less if we left the restaurant or not. In fact, he thinks the car is fun, so it's not a big deal right now. I think eventually he will start to understand that the restaurant is the fun part and throwing a tantrum there will result in our quick departure.

[Slim]

Voice of dissent here -- we specifically ask that the kids' food be brought out at the same time as the grown-ups', and we don't bring snacks, because our only hope of getting to eat is to have the kids be occupied eating their meal while we eat ours.
We tend to go to the same places so we know most of our options before we even see the menus, and we'll talk about what we're going to order on the way there.
So a typical meal out for us goes: get in, get seated, order ASAP, go to the bathroom/wash hands/go for quick stroll outside the restaurant. If we have to be at the table while we wait for our food, crayons are handy, especially if we're at a place that uses big sheets of paper on top of the tablecloth. I also have a collection of small cars and dinosaurs in the diaper bag, and a selection of books.
A few times a year, we still have a meal out that is interrupted by one parent going out to the car with a child while the rest of the gang finishes the meal. Prepare all you want to -- sometimes things just go off the rails.

[Shelley]

To me, the challenging part is when you're on a family vacation (that is, with grandparents and other extended family members) and are trying to get to the restaurant early enough that you get home well before bedtime, thus avoiding the overtired meltdown. Toddlers and their bedtimes are simply not flexible enough to wait an extra 45 minutes while everyone potters around getting ready to go. This drove me NUTS, especially in the 2-3 age range.

That said, our kid ate out early and often, and at 4.5 is usually a pleasure to have at a restaurant. We do try to stick to places that are kid-friendly in that the service is pretty fast.

[Lee]

Oh man, that chowhound link at the top was so depressing. Makes me remember why I don't read chowhound anymore.

[Erica]

I'm going to blather on about 2 things.

First, regarding other countries--There's definitely a difference. I spent some time in Sweden, where children are very highly regarded and accommodated (pram-lifts on buses and a year's paid maternity leave, anyone?) but in a way that expects good behavior from them. I remember the one Saturday morning I was in a cafe having breakfast and two families came in. The adults sat at one table and the kids, about age 6, sat at another while they ate, and the kids were perfectly behaved. I think a lot of it was because the parents treated them as people in their own right, not checking in on them every 2 seconds, not expecting anything but good behavior.

Second, as I was flying back from Louisville this past weekend, I sat behind a mother traveling with her 3 kids (!) aged about 3-10. They were so good--amused themselves, were quiet. They started getting antsy as we were taxiing to the terminal, but it was 8 pm, we'd been delayed about 45 minutes, they were about to see their dad, and quite honestly, I was feeling pretty antsy, too! When I saw the mom waiting outside the restroom, I told her that her kids were great. I think she really appreciated it, particularly since, as she said, she was about ready to strangle her son who had just darted in the men's room w/o telling her!

Now that I'm a mom of a nearly-5 month old, I realize how hard it can be and am going to make more of a point of being understanding of other parents. I'm sure there will be times that I will appreciate a complement or kind word, so I'm not going to be stingy on my end!

[Sara]

I agree with so many of the comments here. Everyone has detailed their suggestions so well. We also love that timer analogy, and refer to it all the time!

I would just add that for us, ordering my 3 year old daughter's food to come earlier is not helpful. In fact, if they offer to do so, we decline. I always have some kind of snack for her if she is starving, but we have found that that if her food comes first, she is finished by the time our food arrives, and is then understandably antsy to get up or leave.

In contrast, by having her food arrive with ours, she learns the process of waiting, we engage her with conversation, books, drawing, other quiet toys, etc. while we are waiting, too. Then, when the food arrives, we can all eat! I also reserve a more special toy or activity to occupy my daughter if she finishes first (usually a tiny can of play-doh at this point, since she rarely drops pieces on the ground).

We're now figuring out how to go out with both our super squirmy 8 month and our 3 year old in a new city where we are not familiar with the restaurants, but we're trying to do it more.

My personal worst experiences (meaning my daughter's worst behavior) were actually when out with other people with kids, my nephew in one case and some friends and their children in another. Both had to do with differing expectations on the part of the parents, I think. (In one case, the other mom bringing nothing to occupy her child whose loud voice and behavior brought out the same in mine, and, in the other, the other parents allowing their children to walk around, change seats, etc., which of course made my daughter want to do the same). So, now, I'm more prepared to be more assertive in a discussion about my preferences ahead of time, to try to avoid this stuff.

[Sheila]

"Slightly off topic--but anyone ever notice that the "kid's menu" is usually chock full of crap-food (a la mac and cheese, chicken "fingers"-must the food be molded into the shpae of a phalange?-, hamburgers, fries, spaghetti with what looks like canned sauce. etc). I think it is a sad comment on how our culture thinks of food and compartmentalizes adult and "kid's" food."

Yes, there's this assumption that kids have crap taste in food when I rather think that in many cases it's this assumption that gives kids a taste for garbage in the first place. We don't usually do kids' meals either for our 2-year-old; we're vegetarian so chicken fingers and hot dogs and so on are out for her anyway. But most days, my kid will eat broccoli and curries and whatever else simply because that's what she gets at home.

[Jill in Atlanta]

I think trying to keep them interested helps a lot. On vacations we start by ordering quickly, but then take turns talking about our "best part" of our day. We use crayons as provided and eat early. We order something we think they'll eat. We get lids on cups. We make origami with the napkins. We try to pronounce unusual foods. We make up stories about people we see and where they might be from or might be doing. We engage the kids and keep them cheerful. Manners are expected at home, so they don't vary at restaurants either.

Maybe that's key. Expect the same manners at home. My kids have eaten at the adult table every meal of their lives. We light candles and talk. They must stay at the table until everyone is done. No climbing. If you choose to be excused you may not come back for more food/dessert later. No exceptions. I'm strict, but my kids do great in restaurants, at grandma's, etc.

[SarraJK]

We've been taking our son out to restaurants since he was a few months old. In general, he's very well behaved and loves to go to restaurants.

Our stance on throwing food has always been if he throws food, dinner is over. And after going to bed hungry a couple of times, he hasn't done it since.

I always bring spare food if it's someplace that I'm not sure will have something he'll eat (he is 3 and in the picky stage). I also bring a diaper bag full of quiet stuff to do. From about 18 months on, I kept stickers in the bag and a notebook. He didn't get stickers except at a restaurant, and he'd spend a huge amount of time putting stickers into a notepad. Now he does 24 piece jigsaw puzzles, that only come out at restaurants.

He's not perfect, but he knows that if he acts out, we'll leave. We've only had to do that twice.

[Ann]

Here in Orlando, Most restaurants are kid friendly. Even the very nice ones are full of families. We took the Bear with us to a Fancy, Disney Resort restaurant for our anniversary and nobody batted an eye.

Of course, we see our share of melt downs. Mostly because families on vacation are overtired, off schedule, and man, its HOT here.

Ditto everyone's comments. Bear has gone to restaurants forever and often. We enforce table manners at home, and expect the same or better at a restaurant. We dont take toys now, cuz at 3 she is excited about the kids menu/coloring page and the "restaurant crayons"

When other kids are acting up she'll say "what's that boy doing?" Sometimes too loud! But, hey, she's right.

Is she always an angel? Nope. But we never hesitate to take her anywhere.

[Sherry]

Wow. Reading most of these comments makes me think I'm spoiling my kid. I can't send my 14-month-old to bed hungry! And I don't know how to make her sit still and not get upset, unless she's really tired. She LOVES running around the restaurant smiling at other people. But that's not appropriate, I know. I'm going to have to work on restaurant behavior, I guess. For now, it seems so much easier to eat at home.

[slim]

Sherry, if she's really hungry, she isn't going to be throwing food. She'll be eating it. Maybe playing with it, but throwing = not hungry any longer. So you aren't starving her by removing her.

Similarly, don't think about making her stay in her seat at restaurants as some sort of undue restrictions -- it's a manners thing, true, but it's also a safety issue, for her and for the servers.

[Bella]

For me, the "earlier is better" formula doesnt' quite work. Yes, in general, I think taking kids out at young ages helps them learn how to behave appropriately, but I'm all for avoiding the really hellish periods, for both the kids' sanity and mine. So, in terms of taking the kids out to eat, I avoided those "sensitive" windows of development. The boys were great in the more "unconscious" sleepy state before 3 months, then we completely avoided around 4 months, then again around 9 months, and I wouldn't have even considered stepping foot into a restaurant at 18-21 months if my life depended on it. In between these ages, and right now, at a little over 2, our boys are great at restaurants, loving the rituals of ordering, getting out their little books to wait, talking with us, and then eating like the grown ups. They get how special it is and it's a real pleasure sharing that "special-ness" with them.

Don't get me wrong, of course it's a lot of work on our part to make sure that they're really engaged and not flinging salt and pepper all over (soooo tempting in those cute little bottles), but it's also become increasingly more fun too.

And yes, I found that Europe in general is SO MUCH more accommodating of kids in all realms of life. In France, we constantly took our kids out to lunch and dinner and the waitstaff were consistently friendly, fun and seemed to genuinely enjoy the boys being there. And guess what? Of course our boys got the vibe and were reciprocally amiable and happy and turned up the charm. AND THERE WERE NO KIDS' MENUS! I find the whole idea of separating children's food from adult's food really unhelpful for all the reasons already mentioned.

[LC]

(Don't use the staff as a threat - don't say, "if you're not quiet, the waiter/librarian/lady over there is going to make you leave/not let you come back")

I'm the big bad wolf in the family, because I tell the kids straight out that "if you're not quiet/can't behave, *MOMMY* is going to make you leave - NOW".

I never needed to enforce that in a restaurant, but we attend religious services regularly, and I *have* left with them in the middle when they were too antsy and disruptive (note - other parents apparently feel no such compunction, and it drives me NUTS!).

[Maureen]

Hi... finally chiming in. I have 2 3-yr old boys. The 1 1/2 - 2 yr old range was a rough one for dining out. Hardest part is one would behave but the other would egg him on and then there would be 2 misbehaving boys to deal with. We are not frequent diner-outers (typically go out 1 a month or so).

What's worked for us - I always pack a partial dinner for the boys. Something like chopped asparagus, carrots, edamame, and then fruit for after dinner. That way I can feed them those things while we wait for our dinner; I know they are going to get the good things in them; it gives up more options menu-wise for ordering for them. We order a chopped salad for my husband and I which will come out quickly - the boys will graze on parts of that with us. By the time we are done grazing, the rest of the meal is typically there. By this point, the boys aren't too hungry and might be getting to the end of their "Time". No worries, out comes the fruit - their favorite part of any meal! Buys us another 5-10 mintues.

I bring a couple key toys plus a couple books. One thing the boys love is this great construction scene sticker/paper thing from Oriental Trading. I bring some tape, tape it to the table, my husband helps one boy put the stickers on his and I help the other boy.

Our mental approach to dining out is that 1) it will not be relaxing, 2) at least there are no dishes to do!, 3) we have to be prepared to leave at any time which may mean not finishing our meal and just taking it home with us, 4) go early for dinner - lunch does not work for us as the boys nap typically around 1:30 and are pretty ripe by lunch time, 5) going out is an opportunity for a change of scenary and a festive occassion to share as a family.

People will tell us from time to time that wow your boys are so well behaved. My husband and I will look at each other, say thank you but later laugh because we didn't think the boys at that time were acting so wonderfully.

With two boys, we don't have to order off children's menu because they can just share an order or we order a full item for them and their left overs will be my lunch at work the next day.

[Kathy]

We mostly eat at Mexican or Asian restaurants... which is alright with me. They tend to be more casual and the people (waiters and hosts) are much nicer. I think culturally they're more family oriented and understanding when a kid is having an "energetic" moment. A huge generalization but it's what we've found.

We go out to eat once a week. Mostly for my sanity and desperate need for Korean food.

We were just in San Antonio and I was SHOCKED to see how nice people were to our family. They opened doors and didn't give us dirty looks like my active 18-month-old would scream and throw food in the restaurant. It was nice.

[Amy M]

(Admitting first that I haven't read the other comments...)

We regularly take our 17 month old out. We've learned a few things. We can't go out too late on a school night. If we're going out during the week, we better do it asap to get the peanut's good mood. Also, we bring a snack, because even if there is bread, it is better to have a favorite food to keep boredom away. And we love restaurants that have paper placemats or tablecloths and lots of crayons. There are still nights that we have to leave before dad and I are done eating, but we do pretty well.

I think part of the reason is that we have a "neighborhood" restaurant. We go there 1-2 times a week. It's a casual place that's 5 minutes from home and where we know the staff and the owner. We're comfortable there and so is DD. I think it has made the transition to other restaurants a lot easier on all of us.

[new jordans]

A friend is, as it were, a second self.