Taking your kids out in public

I thought we needed a kind of trivial post for today to lighten the mood.

Last night I was at a restaurant here in San Antonio, and there was a family at a nearby table with a mom, dad, and four kids. The oldest kid was maybe 8, and the youngest looked around three.

When they walked in, I thought, "Those parents are going to have a handful during this meal." But no. Those kids were calm and happy the entire time, and talked and entertained themselves and each other while they waited for their food, then ate happily. The two littlest ones started to get antsy about 5 minutes before they got their check, which was amazing timing.

I was going to talk to the parents to tell them how cute their kids were and also ask them what their secret was, but I went to the bathroom and by the time I got back they were gone. So I was thinking about it all night, and realized that was was striking wasn't that the kids were "well-behaved" but that they seemed genuinely content, and like they were enjoying each other. The parents were super-calm about the whole process, and the kids got to choose what they wanted to eat from the kids' menu, and seemed to really understand the restaurant thing. (Which goes back to my theory that you have to press through the crappy restaurant stage if you want to get your kids used to being able to eat in restaurants.)

I got the feeling that the parents had expectations and boundaries, and the kids were used to those but were treated as people within those boundaries.

I wanted to tell this story first of all because I love seeing happy families, but also because I wanted to tell those of you with kids who are going through the not-fit-for-public-consumption phase that it will get better. Follow your instincts and keep the appropriate boundaries, and get their drinks in cups with lids.

Anyone else see any good parenting this week? Have any problems with your kids in public?

Comments

[Lisa]

(Which goes back to my theory that you have to press through the crappy restaurant stage if you want to get your kids used to being able to eat in restaurants.)

I agree. We took both our boys out to eat early and often. :) We just did the usual stuff -- ask if their food can be brought out when it's ready instead of waiting on ours, bringing quiet toys to play with, utilizing the cracker bowl, sit where a rambunctious child can be easily removed (and be willing to remove! and make being removed NOT FUN!), that sort of thing.

[chapmanchick]

My husband actually avoids going out for dinner with my 18 month old son because it is such a hassle. My challenge (other than the fact that I love dining out...and eating in general) is that I'm not sure what level of decorum is appropriate for DS... I can't think it is that high. I'm pleased when there is less mess on the floor than last time, and we up our tip substantially when it has been a more disruptive visit. I think treating kids like people who need guidance with respect is important. And starting young with developmentally appropriate (whatever that might be) expectations will make it a *hopefully* smooth transition into becoming well-behaved children.

[Joy]

One of the best pieces of advice I got when I found out I was expecting my first (of three), was from an ornery older gentleman in the Southern city where I lived and worked at the time. He and his wife had raised two boys, and he said, "Take them everywhere with you. Whether it's appropriate for kids or not. Bars, whatever." He said that's how they'd done it with their boys, and they grew up able to handle mature situations from a young age. So, that's what we've done, and so far I'd say he was right.

[Joy]

PS... I think his comment was more geared toward not worrying about what other people thought was appropriate or not... not so much what was developmentally appropriate for the child.

[Becky]

I have friends with 4 happy, well-behaved kids with a similar age spread. When I asked her secret she told me it's waiting for them to turn four, but I'm sure she's got some others up her sleeve. I wish I were in on some of them after 2 huge fits while out on errands with my 21mo dd yesterday morning because I wanted her to sit in the cart seat at two different stores. The latter wasn't helped by the fact that it was about 20 minutes till lunchtime, but the former just seemed to be about independence. I'd love to have her help me push the cart, but the minute I stop, she loses interest and starts walking away fearlessly, and it's not always feasible to include her in the shopping (nuanced decisions over area rugs only hold her attention for so long) *sigh* We just moved so I am still looking for babysitters. Anyone have any tips on how to work with a very independent toddler just discovering the opinions we knew she had all along?

[Lorraine]

I was just reading a depressing thread on Chowhound: http://www.chow.com/stories/11169

Amazing how many people go directly to: blame the parents, hate on the kid. My son's only 14 months, and we've been bringing him to restaurants from the beginning. Of course, I'm a Proud Public Breastfeeder tm (aka, itching for a fight) so that's made it easier, and we're definitely using all the techniques available to us (early mealtimes, ready to leave asap, quiet toys).

As a former server and a current librarian, here is my plea to parents everywhere:
Don't use the staff as a threat - don't say, "if you're not quiet, the waiter/librarian/lady over there is going to make you leave/not let you come back" I hate being used to scare kids!!!

[Shannon]

My husband and I went for a walk to a nearby park with our 3 month old, and called our friend around the corner to join us with her kids (6 weeks and 23 months). The toddler, who is generally the most sedate, reserved, and obedient little girl we know had a major meltdown on the way home. She wanted out of her stroller (a Phil & Teds, so she sits up high), and to communicate this kept trying to stand up on the seat while wailing pitifully. Her mom was great -- consistent in enforcing the rules ("no standing in the stroller, it's not safe and we'd all be sad if you fell") to the point of pulling over and giving her a brief time out. She also handed her infant off to my husband so she could give the toddler her full attention; she never even raised her voice. At one point she apologized to us because the walk home was taking a long time -- I said, "Are you kidding? I'm taking notes!"

[Mar]

We spent much of my childhood flying back and forth across the country, with my mom (on her own most of the time) responsible for 4 young children. She says we were generally well-behaved and always well-received by the flight attendants and fellow passengers. Her secret was that we were ALWAYS dressed for a visit to grandmas (e.g., put together - no sweats or jeans). We looked cute, which endeared us to our fellow travelers, and probably acted a little more sedate because we were wearing nice outfits.

[Cloud]

Oh, I can't wait to read people's tips! Pumpkin is 15 months old, and taking her out to eat is... challenging. This is compounded by the fact that she is hesitant to try new foods, anyway (although last time we were out she refused/picked at all her usual foods and then chowed down happily on flan and a coconut cookie, neither of which she'd seen before).

We pick our restaurants carefully, and are always willing to remove her if she is disrupting other people's dinners. We tip extravagantly, and try to clean up after Pumpkin as much as we can. But it is so hard/stressful that I sometimes wonder why we do it. It is nice to hear that suffering through the pain now may lead to happy dining out in the future!

We have discovered a few things that help us so far:

1. Pumpkin is better at lunch than dinner, so we plan our outings accordingly.

2. We always have goldfish and/or graham crackers (the two foods she'll ALWAYS eat) with us, since she usually picks at whatever restaurant food we put in front of her.

3. We plan our outings around HER meal times (and nap time), not ours. Which means that right now, lunch is at 11:30.

4. We currently request that all of our drinks come without straws, because Pumpkin likes to play with those and screeches like a pterodactyl when I try to make her stop splashing my water all over the place with the straw. At some point, I need to teach her how to use a straw, but I think those lessons need to happen at home.

I can't wait to read what the rest of you do, because I'd sure like to get better at this.

[dot]

My boy just turned 3, and I totally agree about training them on how to behave by taking them to restaurants (different kinds) often over the years. He's no angel yet, but he's progressively getting better and he likes going to restaurants.

We just celebrated the boy's 3 yr birthday at a local sushi restaurant, and if you're interested, I wrote up what we did and tips to survive the evening, here:
http://www.dabbled.org/2008/06/how-to-have-enjoyable-evening-with.html
hmm, that URL's long, here's a shorter one:
http://tinyurl.com/3koh8q

dot

[Catherine]

A couple of years ago, I saw a similar multi-kid, good-behavior, all-getting-along "incident" at an Indian restaurant. (Which had the added bonus of the older kids both understanding and liking Indian food! No ordering off the kids' menu there.) Like Moxie, I wanted to compliment the parents but felt uncomfortable doing so. After talking with my sister, though, I really wish I had: she has two boys, 4 and 6, and they are VERY well behaved in public. She often gets comments and compliments from strangers on their behavior, and believe me, she appreciates them! So next time you see something like that, please do say a word to the parents; it means the world to them.

[Leah]

I think part of the difficulty is that the US has a very unrealistic expectation of kids in public. When we vacationed in Germany with a 15 month old, we got help and kind words and people walked across the street to bakeries to get her a cookie. When we go out to many restaurants here, we get dirty looks and snide remarks. It's like people want kids to magically appear when adults, fully groomed for society. Sadly that's not how it works. Not sure why we had such differing experiences, but it was eye-opening.

[Julieta]

When I was a teenager I worked at Sav-on. This adorable little girl of about 2-3 years would come in with her mother. She loved to look at the stuffed animals, pretty cosmetics displays, etc. When her mother wanted to leave she would kneel down to her, look with her, and tell her, "Ok, now say 'bye-bye' to the elephant, 'See you later'". And the little girl would listen!

I think it was because the mom was acknowledging the girl's interest, instead of just pulling her away. Also, she somehow made it ok to enjoy something without having to buy it, as if they were visiting the items at their "home". I have always remembered that and it has worked with my 2yo DS and 4yo DD (most times). Something simple, and probably everyone else knows, but 20 years later, it has stuck with me.

[SarcastiCarrie]

I'm going on "vacation" (is it really a vacation with a kid in tow?) next week. To me, vacation involves eating out and not having to prepare and clean up my own meals. I am dreading it because my husband and I are not on the same page regarding appropriate restaurant behavior. Please answer some questions for me.

Is it OK to remove a child from a restaurant when misbehaving without the coat on (I say if they are being that bad, put the coat on outside. Husband says make everyone miserable in the restaurant because we won't go outside without a coat.)? I'd like to think this is a moot point, but you never know about Wisconsin in July.

How quiet do kids need to be in a non-fancy restaurant, especially if it's not constant noise just the occasional boisterous moment?

How many times can a kid ask to go potty during dinner before you consider it's just screwing around to get up from the table (currently, I believe the answer is 3)?

Are small cars (Hot Wheels, Matchbox) OK on a restaurant table?

Does a 3-year old belong in a high chair, a precariously perched booster seat, or just on his knees at the table? Or does it just depend on where he'll sit?

Who gets stuck sitting in the car if the behavior is so bad you need to leave while the other parent waits for your food to come out?

Is it impolite to ask for the check as soon as you've ordered?

We've had many good restaurant trips and two or three others that were spectacularly bad. I can't really put my finger on what was different the good times and the bad other than general mood of the day and age.

[rudyinparis]

I'm really interested in this topic and will enjoy reading the posts. Here's my take, given the fact that I have a 4 year old and a 2 year old: accept that meals out will be devoted to teaching/modeling correct behavior. Give up on the fantasy that you can enjoy a margarita while staring into space or having a witty conversation with your partner. This will not happen. Instead, it will be: Sit on your bum and face forward, please. No, please get out from under the table. No throwing. Inside voice, etc. I think the work now will pay off in the long run. If you can, try to interject some real conversation. That's icing. I think, as Lisa points out, removing them for inappropriate behavior is good and I would also add being willing to get up and go outside even if they're not misbehaving, but just need to get their wiggles out, as they say.

My childhood memories are filled with wonderful memories of dinner at restaurants with my parents. We always celebrated the big and the small by a meal out. It was a huge treat for everyone. My parents expected us to act politely. Period. Their firm and confident belief in our ability to behave and try new things helped *create* that ability.

[Shannon]

Chicago Moms Blog has a post today about dining out with kids:

http://svmomblog.typepad.com/chicago_moms/2008/07/dining-out-with.html

[Nicole]

I have a friend who's son is 9 years old and is the sweetest and most aware child I know. He is polite, friendly, funny, and engaged in conversation with adults. He's gentle, playful, and loving with his little sister and other little kids. A couple of months ago I sent an email to my friend telling him what a great kid his son is and what a great dad he is. I know that as parents we rarely get props for the hard work we put in, so I was pleased to be able to give a good father his due. I don't know the kid's mom, so I couldn't give her her due, but apparently she rocks too.

On another note, there's Thomas the Tank Engine DVD giveaway at my blog, so head on over if your kid is as obsessed as mine.

[Karen]

I think personality can play a huge part - my son, in contrast to his mom, is an extrovert and (maybe somewhat hand-in-hand?) quite adventurous. He loves restaurant dining, and even more at a place where he can interact with those around him.

My husband - also an extrovert, who lives to get out of the house - has been taking him out alone since he was a wee babe. Like weeks old. I would send a bottle of breastmilk back in the day. By far their favorite place to go is the Mexican mercados and restaurants, which are extremely kid friendly. Chinese buffets come in second. Son and I go out about once a week, and honestly he does better out than in, mainly because he's so busy taking in the scene/being his extroverted self, that he doesn't get into the food throwing to amuse himself that he does at home.

Caveat: He's only 19 months, so I likely haven't seen all that he's going to be capable of...

Pet peeve: Loud music, especially in less kid-friendly circumstances, which causes/contributes to him being louder than socially acceptable, i.e. everyone around us is munching/talking quietly, the music is blaring, and he's talking a normal amount but ends up being too loud.

[CG]

It seems like the way kids behave at a restaurant is necessarily an extension of how they behave at the dinner table at home. We have had Toddler at the dinner table with us, including during dinner parties, since he was old enough to sit up in his high chair. Usually he sits there happily and listens to the grownups talk for quite a while. He's pretty good at restaurants, too.

And yes, I ask for the check almost as soon as we have our food, in case we need to make a quick getaway. We have a nice compact booster seat that we bring with us everywhere (made by Fisher Price, can't say enough good things about it) that has a tray. Much easier than dealing with those restaurant high chairs. Toddler's my first kid, so I don't know if this will get harder as he gets older, but here's hopin'.

[hedra]

@SarcastiCarrie, as if my opinion would carry any weight, but...

Is it OK to remove a child from a restaurant when misbehaving without the coat on. - I say yes. We leave the house all the time without the coat on, even in rain or snow, because they learn to trust my opinion about weather appropriate gear much more completely when they experience it themselves. AND I learn much more quickly what their individual heat/cold tolerances are when I allow it, too - some of my kids tolerate heat/cold, some do not. Some resist coats, some do not. They're not the same some's... but they all know that weather needs appropriate attire. Most of the time, just asking them to look outside (and touch the glass for cold helps, too) and then choose what to wear not only distracts them from their distress of the moment, but gives them autonomy, power, and choice. All of which tend to lead to better behavior. Did I actually answer the question? heh.

How quiet do kids need to be in a non-fancy restaurant, especially if it's not constant noise just the occasional boisterous moment? - Quiet enough that the only people glancing your way most of the meal are in the tables nearest you. This will differe depending on acoustics and ambient noise. Keep in mind that the sound won't be quite as intense at their table as it is at yours, too. Wince and make apologetic faces but don't get angry or punitive if a loud moment occurs. I've had more compliments for staying calm under pressure than for most other things. So, stay calm if at all possible (and ditto on the avoiding threats thing - it also backfires later if you want them to learn to order for themselves if they're scared of the waitstaff...).

How many times can a kid ask to go potty during dinner before you consider it's just screwing around to get up from the table (currently, I believe the answer is 3)? - 3 around here, too. At 3, it is time for an adult to get up with the child and go for a walk - preferably outside the restaurant.

Are small cars (Hot Wheels, Matchbox) OK on a restaurant table? - Depends. At a Diner with plenty of room, yes. At a place with smaller tables/booths jammed in, no. For us, toys depend on the likelihood that we'd be able to retrieve it, and whether it would make it to under the next table over. We allow more items now that the elder kids will fetch lost items from under the table, but we're still usually talking crayons.

Does a 3-year old belong in a high chair, a precariously perched booster seat, or just on his knees at the table? Or does it just depend on where he'll sit? - Depends on where he'll sit. Some meals, that's meant all three in series as they discover what works for that table height and meal and how they're doing. Now, our kids tend to ask for the seat they want when we enter the restaurant. They'll even scope to see what kind of seats are there - M (3 1/2)still likes the high chair seats. R (also 3 1/2) prefers to kneel or sit. Neither likes the boosters much (tippy? too hard? don't know).

Who gets stuck sitting in the car if the behavior is so bad you need to leave while the other parent waits for your food to come out? - Whoever is either done first, or who didn't do it last time. We kind of make eye contact and just know who will do it. Sometimes staying inside with the rest of them is worse than going to the car...

Is it impolite to ask for the check as soon as you've ordered? - Not in a casual place. Just say, 'we don't know how long the kids will behave well, so if you wouldn't mind bringing us the check along with the meal, we'd appreciate it.' ... which is right after 'please bring the (whatever insta-food is likely, we use fries) right away, and the kids food as soon as it is ready. It will help keep them settled.' (Big smile)

***

We do the diner and the chinese/japanese place regularly, plus the restaurants in museums. The kids have learned how to go out. We've learned that we do need sometimes to extract someone, that we need to plan the mealtime to either intersect with BEFORE their hungry time (the smell/sight of restaurant seems to accelerate the need for food NOW), or feed a good snack before the restaurant (our kids tend to eat well at restaurants, so that's not an issue). They need distractions (crayons or even a pen and paper), they need food quickly (fries as noted, usually... can't do bread or crackers, sigh), and they need to be extracted at the end of the meal, too (we tend to let one adult stay behind to clean up if needed and pay - mainly not much cleanup after about 3 years old, the other parent takes the kids for walking/running in circles outside the restaurant).

We also enlist my mom to help them practice - she not only got 'training crystal' (seriously! nice but not tragic if broken) for them for the celebratory formal meals/feast days, but also takes them to various places and asks them to observe other people's behavior, and then choose who to emulate consciously - and think about why. It's not the only education they get on it, but it's a nice add-in.

[paola]

Well, we avoided taking my now 3.5 year old out to restaurants, unless it was a matter of life or death (holidays, long-car trips etc), for most of his life. Last August, so he was 2.5, we had to eat in a restaurant together as we were doing a loooonnnnggg road trip to Brittany and we were dreading it (he was exhausted), but lo and behold, he was your perfect little restaurant-goer: happy, polite, ate almost everything. And this is a kid that was not used to restaurants. Even a few months ago we took him and his sister (then 15 months old) out to a long, extended lunch and he was great, she was too. Had a few toy cars to keep him occupied, a few trips out to the garden. I was amazed. I think at this wee age, they are difficult from around 18 months to around 2.5, and you can't take them anywhere (well he was) but they are difficult for everything at that age. Do they go bad again later on?

[Jan]

This brings to my mind a story. About ten years ago, I had a job waiting tables in a local diner in our teeny-tiny (population: 290) town. Needless to say, we saw the same people again and again.

There were various families that came in, one with 8 kids, varying in age from about 3 up to teenagers. Those kids were consistently the best-behaved, most-well-socialized, pleasant-to-be-around bunch of any family I regularly encountered. I remember being impressed by them at the time, and I am more so now. (I'm also, especially now that I'm a parent, really glad I took the time to let the parents and the kids know how much I appreciated them.) The specific thing I remember is that one time one of the younger ones spilled his soda. I went to replace it for him and his dad very politely asked me not to -- "He spilled it," he said, "he can drink water" There was no shaming the kid, and he did not protest. It was simply what it was -- the consequence of spilling your soda is that your soda is gone. Good thing there's water to drink.

Isn't it funny how we glean parenting advice from the darnedest places?

I find myself wishing sometimes that my kids would spread their horrendous behavior around a little. I could handle a little brattiness in public if it meant a reduction in the intensity of the tantrums at home. I seriously can't believe the Jekyll/Hyde-ness of them.

Cute kid moment for the week: The Little Dude (who is 2 1/2) has just graduated from diaper bag to backpack for daycare. He's very proud of his "new pah-pack", and wears it from the car into his classroom in the morning. Yesterday my mom picked the kids up from daycare and kept them overnight (just to give us a night off -- yay mom!) so he also had a little suitcase-on-wheels thing packed up. I was so wishing I'd had a camera to capture the image of him pushing his suitcase (he prefers to push it like a stroller) along the sidewalk, "pah-pack" on his back, headed seriously in to "school". Cute, cute, cute. (Probably doesn't qualify, particularly, as An Example Of Good Parenting, but it was fun for me!)

Ah, good parenting example. A friend of mine who also has kids close in age shared with me a great way of dealing with their fighting and arguments. I'm in the "let them work it out" camp, generally (a la Siblings Without Rivalry) but have struggled with when and how to help them learn to do that. She said when they start to get upset or frustrated, she simply asks them if they'd like suggestions on how to proceed. It's working GREAT on 4-year-old, and not just for arguments with her brother. It takes the stubbornness issue right out of encounters where she really needs some help. Instead of "let me help you with that," I say, "it looks like you're having trouble with that -- would you like a suggestion?" and if she's frustrated, she says yes.

[swissmiss]

Not this week, but the last time I flew I was directly behind a woman travelling solo with her apx 3 mo old and apx 9 mo old. From NYC to Switzerland. I thought Oh great (because I have done that flight with one child and a husband and it's no fun.) The kids were great, they both slept (it's an overnight flight) no real trouble and they were very well behaved. I made a point of telling the woman what great flyers the kids were because you always here the complaints when your kids cry on the plane but rarely get a "good job" when they don't. So I figured I would share the love.

[hedra]

Oh, and our kids behave better in restaurants than at home. They understand that the rules differ by location and context, and apply that understanding quite successfully. We can tolerate more at home, and do, for the sake of them enjoying their meal together. (Throwing food is still right out, etc.)

We also have really high standards for behavior when out - often when we're considering their behavior as maybe a C+ (especially when we've been managing through some disruptions and I've noticed other people glancing our way - hint, sometimes they're doing that because things look better at that distance than you think they do), someone will come to our table and say, 'wow, your kids are so well-behaved! Most kids can't handle a restaurant meal like this.' I'm often flabbergasted by that. Happy for it - but flabbergasted.

We're often stuck going to nicer places than we'd expected to go on vacation, since the diets are so limited - so we've ended up at some fairly swank spots just because we know they'll have (or will easily make) something the kids can eat and will enjoy ... and the kids just 'up' their appropriate behavior to match. So I think teaching them to read the cues of the environment is a definite item in the plus column. That and a lot of practice.

[swissmiss]

Ooops, that should be 3 year old and 9 month old.

[paola]

Oh, yeah, I second the opinion that someone had about how they behave in a restaurant is an extension of how they behave at home, taking into consideration the age of the child. I wouldn't even dream of taking my 18 month old out at the moment as she chucks everything on the floor, blows raspberries, spits and totally riles up the bigger one so he is doing the same.

[Colleen]

We always ask that the kids' food be brought out right away. If the server questions it, either verbally or in body language, we add, "you know, so they don't get crazy from hunger waiting..." and that does it every time.

The only times that our 4 year old has acted up (the 11-month old hasn't been out as much), has been when service has been dismal and we're waiting forever for food and/or check. We've been very lucky that his obnoxious-in-public stage was fairly brief. and that he was easily bribed with pens.

[Alex]

Hmmm. Interesting to read this stuff.

We took DS out a bunch as an infant but have curtailed this as he's gotten older (now 15 months). We have basically two family-friendly places that we'll go.

Honestly, at this stage I'm just not sure I see the point of going out to restaurants, Moxie's comment about it being "worth it" (not sure if that extends to EVERY age notwithstanding. I am thinking/hoping that an equally viable strategy may be to work on table manners at home and to treat testing them out in a restaurant as a special treat. I guess I'll get to find out if this works...

[Shandra]

I have a really good eat-out-er. I suspect this is mostly the universe's gift but here are my tips for the toddler stage, which we are just now exiting:

- If possible, avoid peak hours. This makes the noise input easy and the staff more relaxed.
- (I read this somewhere online I don't remember) remember that you are on The Timer. You do not know when it will go off, but when it does, the meal will be over, regardless of where you are at in the actual service. Order accordingly. (We have given up appetizers.) Do not order drinks separately from meals; this squanders precious time on the timer. Consult menus in advance if possible in order to make this possible.
- Inform your server about The Timer and enlist his/her help, especially in getting child food to table in a quick way. (This especially helps on vacation where one is in restaurants Over and Over.)
- We have toys that only make appearances at restaurants, making them beloved. (Magnetic drawing board is the current fav.)
- Don't treat it as time off parenting; talk to your kid. I have had to learn this one because usually restaurant time has been "me time" and now it is "supermom" time. The more choices my son gets to make, the better he is. He now 'reads' menus and selects his choices (although sometimes they do not match what is actually available, but it's surprising how often grilled cheese can be procured.)
- Practice at off hours in tolerant restaurants (ours is the Zellers diner which is sort of a family restaurant in a Wal-Mart type store).
- If necessary, leave. We have only had to do this once. It made a huge impression. I carry enough cash to cover the meal for this reason.

Great parenting moment: I saw a mum with a 4 yr old and a 3 yr old on the bus the other day and the kids were fairly clearly cranky and tired. She invented a whole elaborate "high-5" game that had them engrossed for a 30 min trip.

[JB]

Everyone has some really good comments here. One thing I'd add that we have had good luck doing with our 3-year-old is making sure she treats the wait staff with respect. Please, thank you, excuse me, would you be so kind, the whole deal. We make a big deal of it, that grown-ups must take this seriously, big people treat people who help them with respect, and part of that is not making a bigger mess than we can help. I've been very proud of the way M has reacted, and wait staff LOVE her.

Are any of you at that between-phase where you don't want to order your kid a whole (huge) adult meal, but don't want to order them the same four things (chicken fingers, mac and cheese, hamburger, spaghetti) from the kids' menu every time, as if that's all kids will ever eat? M is not very picky, and I'd love for her to eat a wide variety, but there's no way she'd eat a whole adult meal. What am I missing? Lots of to-go boxes?

[Shandra]

JB - we ask if half portions are available. Often they are. If not, we either share our dinners, or order another adult meals and just pack the rest home. My son does not like three of the big four, so we've had to be creative. :)

[Joy]

@JB

We've had very good luck requesting small or side portions of adult entrees and vegetables to feed even our smallest eaters... even at cheaper chain places... you might try that.

[meggiemoo]

For my niece's recent highschool graduation, my brother booked dinner at a very swank (read: not kid-friendly AT ALL) restaurant. Not only did my 2-1/2 year old sit through the entire boring 3-hour graduation (with some running up and down hills outside), but behaved remarkably well in the small, crowded fancy restaurant (which had no highchairs) afterward.

He completely endeared himself to the owner, who at the beginning of the night, was glaring at us for daring to bring a toddler into his restaurant. By the end of the night, he was bringing us ice cream.

The point of this story is that my toddler regularly melts down at home, but does really well in public. So don't be afraid to try and get out there. Keep your expectations low, and be prepared to take your food to go and leave if things fall apart.

[pnuts mama]

we are in the camp of "take them out early and often" as well, but i can see how personalities of both parent and child could cause that to be a challenge- if either (or both) had high anxiety or control issues (hello, me) i could cause the situation to deteriorate quickly or make it very unenjoyable to say the least.

i would say pnut definitely went through phases where it was less easy to power through a meal in public- you just get through it. we've each done the 'walk her around the lobby section while the other one woofs down the meal" thing (oh, and that is soooo satisfying, isn't it?) but we try and keep our expectations age-appropriate while teaching her what is socially appropriate ("we sit in our seats til we are done eating in a restaurant") and honestly, she loves to eat out so that's nice for us, since we do too.

we usually do more family-friendly type places with her (places with enough background noise and similar-type people that the normal chatter and volume of a kid won't harass other patrons) but we also can take her to nicer places when needed/wanted. in those instances it helps to ask for a table near the back near the kitchen (noisier) or the front near the door (quick exit). we always make friends with the server right away- always ask for their name and use it and be grateful for their service and employ them as an ally in keeping your kid content (pp's tips on food for kid first [with a beer for mommy], etc are key) works well IME. as soon as your kid can even remotely communicate is a good time to teach them to say "thank you" (even if it's in your own ralph wiggum voice) for anything a server brings them- teaches them manners, makes the server smile.

i usually have a bag of tricks in my bag for restaurants- crayons, small books, small silent toys, etc. and rudyinparis is (as usual) dead on with her comment that this is *not* a dinner date with your partner- this is a family meal and you need to engage and interact with you kid(s) throughout to make it fun for everyone. we play games with pnut, tell her stories, let her color, etc and get our conversations in when we can. of course, now we're at the stage where we are trying to teach her boundaries w/r/t interrupting and saying 'excuse me' when we are talking to another adult. good times.

[hedra]

@JB - try the seniors menu! It's usually still too big for the kids, but not by so much. That or we order 'to share with mom' food. Most diners around us have a seniors portion menu. Otherwise, the half-portions is the same deal.

A few of our kids are into rare steak, broccoli, and baked potatoes... not likely on the kids menu.

Or we'll do a series of sides and appetizers.

We often have leftovers anyway. It's okay, usually.

[meggiemoo]

@JB...I've always avoided the kids' menu. Often not the healthiest choices, besides being plain boring. My DH and I generally give our son a portion of our meals (one of us will order something on the plain side that we think he'll eat). I've been burned a few times on ordering from the kids' menu only to have him not eat a thing.

@Shandra...love The Timer analogy. Sooo true. Our son's timer usually lasts longer than some other childrens', but it goes off eventually nonetheless.

[pnuts mama]

@jb- sometimes we'd bring supplementary food, mostly we just give her some of what we're having plus a side dish or appetizer. she ends up with a smorgasboard style meal that way and usually finds enough of somethings that we're all happy with her eating.

shandra is right about the timer- when it's time to go, go. your server/manager/owner will understand, and would rather you take it to go rather than have a crazy kid go apesh*t all over the restaurant. also, try and go when you know your kid is at their best, tired-wise and behavior wise. this gets trickier as you have more kids, but eventually it will even out. and always let your kids know what is expected of them so there isn't any misunderstanding- and tell them they're doing a great job if they are.

[Dana]

Dinner? Out? Doesn't happen much due to 1) budget constraints and 2) bedtime for 8 month old Sweet Pea is 7 pm, which means that a meltdown could occur earlier..

Lunch (the more affordable option w/ coupons!) out has worked wonderfully lately. Although, she doesn't eat much solids so she isn't eating @ the restaurant, just playing.

We went out this past weekend w/ family from out of town- and there was a 6 and 8 y/o there. They were the most ILL Behaved children I have ever seen... and their parent did not seem to care. It was quite distressing to see their father sit idly by while they were putting their BARE FEET on the table amongst other restaurant no-nos. They were worse at our home and got grease (from WHERE?) on my couch, almost gave my child a concussion, and helped themselves to the grown-up food- which they promptly massacred all. over. the. place. Again, their father did NOTHING!

Is there any polite way to get other people's children to stop doing something without stepping on the other parent's toes? Granted, we know that we aren't the child experts, but some things are just so painfully obvious...

[Monica]

With a 17-month old and 3.75 year old, I really dread taking them out to eat. It's a good way to spend too much money and get indigestion from the stress!

@Shandra, I remember that article, too. I think this is it:
http://www.tastingmenu.com/archive/2005/11-november/20051117.htm

[JB]

Thanks for all the great suggestions! M LOVES Chinese, Vietnamese food, etc -- things that come in shareable form anyway -- and I really like the idea of asking for half portions. I never thought to do that. It never occurs to me to ask for something that's not obvious. :) And if we ordered her an appetizer like potstickers or something, she'd be in heaven. Great ideas.

Funny story from the last time we went out -- we gave our 9 month old son some mashed potato from our plates, and he entered his loud, ecstatic, "mmmMMMMMmmmMMMMMM" phase. Everyone in the restaurant was giggling. You can keep a cranky kid quiet -- sometimes -- but it's hard to quiet a happy baby!

[Cathy]

Our 5 year old is wiggly and has always been - so it's fairly common (less now than it was) for her and DH to go "play in the van" after she was done eating. Our 14 year old is a historically slow eater - so if it was just me and the two kids, and we were at a hamburger joint, he would just have to pack his stuff up to go and finish in the car. If we're someplace with all 4 of us, DH would take the little one to the van to play.

Our secret weapon is Al Fresco dining - it's a lot more forgiving of noise, dropped food, and wiggles. We have a favorite Tex-Mex/Burrito stand that has a sizeable front porch (and they give out tatoos with the kids meals) that we go to all the time.

We have once in a while (mostly when it was too late to go to a place that was too fancy) had to have our food delivered to our table in to go boxes.

One way to get the delightful food of your favorite restaurant but not have to worry about the comfort of other patrons, is to get to-go orders.

[Jessica]

We go out to lunch every weekend with our now-20-month-old and have not really had a break in that routine no matter his age or stage (although, I admit that so far, I have a VERY easy toddler). By now, he is instantly friends with the server because he knows he/she is bringing his food. He gives him/her a big smile and keeps a constant eye out for when his food is on the way. As he's gotten older, his messes have gotten fewer (although he does like to paint with ketchup on occasion).

We limit our restaurant choices to kid-friendly places where we KNOW he'll have something he's willing to eat. Many of these places are very used to kids, and we've often had the server offer to bring his food out first. If they don't, we always request that they put his food in as an appetizer so it will be ready first.

He's usually content with something off the kid's menu, but lately we've found it's cheaper and easier to order him an actual appetizer or side dish and then give him some of what we're eating if he shows interest. So, we order him fries and then give him some of our veggies or burger or whatever.

I think the fact that going out is part of his weekend routine lets him know what to expect. Even if it's past his usual meal time, as long as we bring some crackers in or go to a place that always has something on the table, he's almost always content to wait. Plus, we always have lunch around 2:00, which is past the rush, so the restaurant is less busy, and we don't feel like we're disrupting people as much.

I think the real trick is making sure you pick places that your kid likes and that tolerate or even welcome young children. You get double points if there's another toddler at the table next to yours so the two can flirt. :) Plus, that family is way more likely to be tolerant of whatever your kid gets up to!

Oh, and we always make an effort to clean up after him a bit, if possible, especially if the mess is worse than usual. I love places that specifically say, "Oh, don't worry about it! We'll get that!" We always will go back there!

At the end of the meal, Daddy usually takes him to the bathroom to wash his hands and face while Mommy waits for the check to come back. That way, he doesn't have to sit there without food.

[mandy]

Recently BIL gave my husband a gift card to a restaurant, saying "I wanted to get you one to a nice restaurant but so many places aren't appropriate for kids." We like to eat at the place the card was for, but were surprised by the other part of it. Our daughter has been to just about any restaurant we'd think to go to and our son has been with us several times as well. We have never gone out much without the kiddos, generally preferring to take them along with us.

It made us stop and think a bit. Our daughter has even been to a very fancy restaurant that happened to be owned by a client of ours. We just went early and they had an area that was a bit more secluded than the rest of the tables. It worked out great. I get that many people on dates don't necessarily want to be around kiddos, but generally we go early enough that the daters are still getting ready.

We've had two instances of meltdowns and only one instance of having to leave early, but we did without hesitation.

Doesn't mean we don't still have the potential for trouble in our future - the youngest is only approaching 6 months old - but we're doing our best to make outings regular enough that they aren't a huge hassle and the kids know what to expect.

[Portia]

Oh man, I'm still traumatized by the time a couple of months ago when I attempted to take the babies I nanny for (then 7 months and 8 months) out on a walk. It was a nanny share, so neither family had a double stroller, and consequently I had been stuck in the house with two babies for days with no way to take them out. So I foolishly ventured out of the house with the lighter one strapped to my chest in her Ergo, and the heavier one in his stroller. Well, wouldn't you know that within fifteen minutes, that bright sunny day turned ominously gray, and a huge downpour sent me scurrying into the nearest coffee shop with both kiddos (one of whom had been sleeping until the thunder came). Obviously the babes were none too pleased at being stuck in the coffee shop for 20+ minutes while we waited it out, and they both started whining, doing little shrieks, etc (though no full-on wailing). Well, I got the DIRTIEST looks. People were actually standing up from their tables to glare at me. I felt terrible, but a) it was POURING, and clearly everyone was in there just to wait it out and b) they weren't even full-on crying, just making noise!
Also, I eventually figured out that the table of old men next to me who were giving me the worst looks and making comments were really just upset that I was such a "young mother" (I'm 22) to "children so close in age." Which was just funny, because they're ONE MONTH apart, and even though he's much bigger and looks older, they're clearly not a YEAR apart. So I just let them stew and laughed to myself.
Wow, that was pointless. Anyway. No more babies in coffee shops for me!

[Amanda]

Slightly off topic--but anyonw ever notice that the "kid's menu" is usually chock full of crap-food (a la mac and cheese, chicken "fingers"-must the food be molded into the shpae of a phalange?-, hamburgers, fries, spaghetti with what looks like canned sauce. etc). I think it is a sad comment on how our culture thinks of food and compartmentalizes adult and "kid's" food. We never order from the kid's menu--just share plates of (sigh) "adult" food. Also, coke products are always featured on the kid's menu. Aie!

I'm always a little uptight when we go out. I feel like, as someone saud above, people have unrealistic expectations of kids. And I agree with what someone else said about it being an American slant, too. When we are in Europe or North Africa, our toddler's "bad behavior" is treated as just "kid behavior" and receives a lot of smiles, laughs and playfulness on the part of other aduls. When we enter U.S. airspace, the aniety begins once the first dirty look gets cast our way!

[Amanda]

Sorry for my terrible typos--I didn't proof read!

[r0ckaby3]

As far as eating out goes, we have gone out often since DS was born. However, he's never been much of an eater and we have had to pull out a lot of the tips that other people have mentioned:

Go for an early lunch
Family friendly restaurants
Toys that only come out when we are at restaurants
Order everything right away
Give child choices of what to eat (age allowing)
Use it as a teaching time

Lastly, we always talk with DS before we leave the house and before we get out of the car, about the expectations while we are eating. This has helped a lot since he got older, and typically, if we are out with people, the parent who's family/friends we are out with gets to stay at the table and chat while the other parent takes DS for a walk or to the car if we have a meltdown.

[Melissa]

My kids are 3 and 1 and we go out to eat nearly every Saturday night. They both go to bed at 7 so we make sure we're sitting at the table by 4:30 or 4:45 to avoid tired meltdowns. My 1-year-old has been a challenge lately in that he likes to throw food and has been going through a yelly phase, but we try to stick to kid-friendly restaurants and the 3-year-old is fine as long as she can color. (I keep a spare coloring book and box of crayons with me--good thing since last week the restaurant was out!) The early time eliminates a lot of the noise concerns, and I've noticed the servers often put together kind of a kids' corner where all the families with children are seated together, presumably because we won't bother one another. There have been weeks when the dinner is less fun, but I agree with Moxie that it feels like laying groundwork for the future.

[Laura]

Lorraine, I read that Chowhound thread, too. It was indeed pretty depressing. I have a seven-month-old, and I'd love to socialize him by bringing him to restaurants when he's a toddler (so far we've brought him only to open-air taquerias and other such family-friendly, easy-exit places). But the silent hatred so many people direct at kids in restaurants, whether or not they're well behaved, is a real deterrent. Not that I'd ever take him to a high-level restaurant until he's very socialized indeed. I live in a food-obsessed part of the country (the Bay Area), and even in some casual places children are clearly not welcome. I've heard that other countries are not quite so uptight about kids in restaurants - Moxie-ites abroad, is that true?

[Suki]

I cannot imagine going out for dinner with my 17 month old. He can barely last 20 minutes in his high chair, and has already entered into meltdowns when he doesn't get what he wants. I have to hope that a future of eating out together is possible, even if I'm too scared to venture into that territory with him as a toddler... I think, he's more difficult than most :(