Q&A: grandfather surfing naughty sites

Rebecca writes:

"Frankly, I can't believe I'm asking this question, for so many reasons. One is that I have a vague feeling that I'm being naive. Second, it's embarrassing to ask about porn. But here goes.

I just discovered that my father in law spends a great deal of his time on the internet watching porn videos, photos, etc. I discovered this because we were staying with them for almost a week and were allowed liberal use of their computer. I am an email and Google junkie so I spent time checking messages and Googling things like where I could find an urgent care center in Albuquerque for my 4-month old with an ear infection. Anyhoodle, my FIL's version of Firefox shows you the most frequent Google searches when you begin to type in the URL bar. And that's how I found that the most frequent search is a porn site. This lead me to a slightly unethical search of his internet history. And *that* lead me to promise myself never to look at his history again, a) because it's so clearly none of my business, and b) I don't want to know any more than I know now, considering I want to continue the lovely relationship we currently have.

My question is this: is there any reason to be concerned for my daughter's safety? My gut tells me that I don't have anything to worry about. But my gut also tells me, as I'm the child of a rape victim, that you really and truly never know. The statistics are there to prove it.

My daughter spends maybe one weekend every month or two with her grandparents, largely with us around as well. But my husband and I do occasionally go out to dinner while we're visiting them (in NM, we live in TX) and leave the baby with her grandfather and grandmother.

The porn habit seems to be a daily event, from what I can glean from the history. It seems that he checks his email and watches some porn. My feeling is that sexual desires, even the raunchy ones, are perfectly, beautifully normal. Meeting your needs is also perfectly normal. But something about daily dates with porn on the internet plus caring for my baby makes me squeamish."

Boy are there a whole lotta issues in this question! Let's start with the issues directly involving your daughter. I am NOT NOT NOT an expert on sex or sexuality or porn or sexual abuse. But it's my understanding that sexual proclivities don't cross. So a man who's looking at porn of adult women is not interested in little kids. I'd hazard a guess that the majority of men who would definitely cross the street to check out Playboy would be absolutely repulsed by the idea of a little kid in a sexual way. So, in your situation, I don't think I'd be concerned about your FIL hurting your daughter directly.

However, that doesn't mean that she couldn't be hurt by accidentally being exposed to porn. Showing kids pornographic and sexual material while they're still children is a form of sexual abuse.(and it can be testing/prepping behavior if the person is intending to molest the child.)  Even if your FIL would never ever intend it, the fact that you could get to it so easily when you weren't trying means that any kid using his computer could get their easily, too, without trying. Your daughter's going to be at the age pretty soon when she's going to want to do Neopets or that penguin game or whatever, and she'll want to do it while she's visiting them, and probably show it off to her grandparents. Two misplaced clicks and she's seeing something she really shouldn't be seeing.

Here's the part of the post when I'm supposed to talk about whether porn is good or bad or whatever. Personally, I think it's damaging to the people who make it more than to many of the people who use it. But I know people on both sides of the issue who work(ed) in the porn/sex industry. Some say it's degrading and coercive; others say it's empowering and liberating. I think for users it can be harmless in some situations, but extremely damaging in others. Using porn if your partner doesn't know is, to me, a problem. And avoiding your partner in order to use porn is a very very serious problem.

The other aspect to worry about is addiction. If he's doing it every day, then he could be addicted. If he's choosing porn over other activities, that's definitely addiction. As with other addictions, it could cause him to act irrationally, but the bigger issue is the isolation there's going to be between him and the people he's distancing from (by using the porn) and hiding it from.

I'm wondering if there's a problem in your in-laws' marriage. If it's something physical, maybe they've chosen porn for your FIL as a way to live with it as well as they can. If they haven't chose the porn together, though, this could be something that's going to come out and be a problem. And you may end up having to deal with some fallout.

So, to recap this super-long post: The porn could be a problem either for your FIL alone, or for your FIL and for his marriage. So just be prepared that it could blow up and involve the whole family. Or perhaps it's just a pragmatic way of dealing with some physical side effects of getting older.

Your immediate concern should be making sure that your daughter doesn't see the porn. The most direct way to do this is to make sure your FIL keeps it where she can't see it. You shouldn't have to have this conversation with him (I cannot think of a conversation that could possibly be more awkward between FIL and DIL!). Instead, get your husband to mention it. He can use the computer and pretend that he came upon the sites, and say something like, "Dude, can you hide your porn? What if my daughter sees it??" and it'll be one of those nudge-nudge Guy Things. And if your FIL is a decent guy he'll rush to shield your daughter from anything too old for her, and problem solved.

Keep your eyes and ears open, and trust your instincts. It wouldn't hurt to reread Protecting the Gift. And good for you for poking around to protect your baby.

Anyone think I'm totally off the mark? Other opinions? Experiences? Anyone worked in the sex industry who wants to comment? Agreement?

Comments

[Diane]

Is there any reason to assume it is the FIL and not the MIL? It could also be something they're doing together. I'm just saying, maybe let's not jump to conclusions that there's something "wrong" with their marriage.

As far as your daughter is concerned, I don't think you need to worry beyond what Moxie has said about your daughter coming across it. I ditto her advice about having your husband deal with it, as I can't even imagine the awkwardness.

I would probably tend to err on the side of minding my own business if this were me. You have to look at your relationship with the in-laws and go with your gut, though. What if you just had a talk with them along the lines of, "We know DD will be able to go on the computer on her own in X amount of time, we have some guidelines for her computer usage and what we'll allow her to see" etc. The issue of the porn really doesn't even need to come up, especially if you're planning on shielding her from much more innocent things as well. I think you'll get the point across.

[peaceinyourcrib]

IMO: moxie gives sound advice.

and FACT: a MD that i worked with lost his custody rights of his 2 girls due to his adult porn addiction.

if the ex-wife (and it was a friendly divorce/close family) and the court found reason to be concerned; you were wise to write.

[Shandra]

When you snooped did you notice if it was regular adult porn? If so I agree with Moxie.

If not, snoop some more. Sorry to say that but I think it is relevant.

Second, yes, exposure to porn would be my main concern. I am going to disagree with Moxie a little bit and say that whether you or your husband bring it up, I myself would really want to know what his reaction is. If he "poo-pood" the concerns I might consider making some changes. And I might make a simple rule which is "no computer time at grandma and grandpa's house."

[melissa]

wait, wait, wait.

We used to leave our internet connection on while we were not using the internet. Someone was hacking into our computer in the middle of the night and looking at porn. I know this because we figured we'd clear the history before bed. I'd leave the connection on, check it first thing in the morning and there would be tons and tons of porn searches. They may be being hacked and not even know it! Once we turned it off at night, it never happeneed again. Weird, isn't it? I have no idea what happened, but it might actually be worth mentioning to your in laws (or having your husband mention).

[enu]

My first thought was same as Diane... maybe it's MIL!

Second thought was, if you don't ever let anyone who doesn't view porn or have someone in the family who views porn watch your child, you'll probably be in grave danger of parenting burnout! You just might not _know_ that that most of the people you know look at that stuff... I don't know what the stats are, but the percent of guys (not sure about gals) who do so is huge. Would you feel the same way about finding a similar magazine under his mattress?

You do need to trust your gut, though, and with your background, of course it's an area of extreme concern for you - but I think it's probably fine.

A child with access to the Internet will probably come across some unsavory stuff, regardless of filters, etc. If it worries you, insist someone sits with your child while on the 'net (not just "supervises" from the kitchen, let's say) or disallow it at their house, whatever.

Best wishes, however you chose to handle it. One doesn't want to think of other people's private habits and it is nasty to suddenly have it in your face....

[theclevermom]

Americans have very puritanical (and hypocritical) views on porn. Checking out a bit of porn every day is not an addiction, not anywhere close, and unless it is obvious that your FIL is avoiding family functions such as dinner in order to spend time on the computer, or staying up every night all night and sacrificing sleep in order to consume porn, I would hazard a guess that his porn consumption is absolutely, sweetly, boringly part of his healthy personal sexuality.

I also do not think it has anything to do with your ILs relationship health. Most healthy adults maintain a private sexual relationship with themselves regardless of their domestic arrangements.

Definitely, when the time is right, limit your daughter's time on that computer or set it up to open to her very own account which will keep anyone else's private data separate on the computer.

I wouldn't worry about discussing it with your FIL. I'm pretty sure he understands how to consume porn in a way that doesn't interfere with other people. Virtually all people do.

[paola]

If the FIL had a serious addiction to porn you'd think he'd make more of an effort to hide it and wouldn't give liberal use of his computer.

And did you say your daughter was only 4 months old? You still have a while before it gets to the stage that your daughter will go and 'use' the computer by herself.

But I would definitely get your husband to have a chat to his dad- you might even save his marriage ( that is if his wife doesn't know he views porn and comes across it like you did)

[marypoppins]

hear hear theclevermom!! I agree totally

[Anon for this one]

Totally agree with The Clever Mom on this one. My initial thought was, you mean there are families where at least one person doesn't look at porn? As long as they can be more discrete about it (maybe change the Firefox settings would be a good start), I think it's OK.

[Andrea]

Have you ever had any reason to question his attitudes about women? I'm just asking because, in addition to your daughter's potential exposure to the porn itself, if his use of porn reflects any underlying beliefs about what women are good for etc., he might not be someone you want her spending a whole lot of time around after all. Or at least not without being prepared to have a lot of discussions about it.

I agree that a daily extensive porn habit may be addiction. I'd go farther and say that addictions rarely occur in well-functioning families, so there may be other things going on to watch out for if that's the case.

[michelle]

I don't know about all this nudge-nudge stuff, but I agree that your main concern should probably just be that you don't want your kid inadvertantly exposed to porn.

I think that any way you slice it, this will be an awkward conversation (whether it is you or your husband doing the confronting). So, my way to deal would be to just blurt it out and keep your concerns simple. Something like, "Thanks for letting us use your computer. Do you know that your internet history just pops up into your browser? I accidentally came accross a bunch of porn sites and, frankly, I don't want DD exposed to all that." And then state whatever you want them to do about it (change programs, not visit these sites when DD is in the house, not let DD use the computer, etc.).

This doesn't deal at all with the porn addicition issue- my personal feeling is that I would probably leave that alone. On the other hand, it is totally fair to insist that nobody visit porn sites when DD is in the house...and if FIL is an addicit, he may be unwilling or unable to do that.

[pnuts mama]

wow, and i thought i had FIL problems. i'm with moxie, and i'll add two thoughts-

is there a chance the guy just discovered the whole porn-side to the internet? if so, maybe that would explain the amt/frequency? also, and this is not meant to offend anyone, but depending on his age, the guy may not be as internet-savvy and it could explain the frequency as well- it took my aunt forever to find something that took me about .05 seconds online- just cause i do it all the time and am so comfortable w/ the net etc. i was also considering that maybe it's a way for him to jumpstart himself for his wife if he's having issues in that department.

here's my other thought, on the not-so-nice side. i'm coming from a place where i've been trained to recognize risk factors for sexual abuse, as well as knowing far too many people who are survivors of abuse as children. most people assume that pedophiles are male, single, and homosexual- and that they abuse strangers. this is, in fact, *wrong*- statistics show that the majority (and not just a small majority, FOUR TIMES MORE LIKELY, IN FACT) of pedophiles are STRAIGHT MARRIED MEN WITH CHILDREN OF THEIR OWN. they use their own kids to gain access to groom their victims- volunteers at school, church, sports, camp, etc. most victims of abuse (especially long term) were abused as children by a family member or family friend.

i'm in no way implying that your FIL is going to abuse your daughter, but i did want to validate your concerns and your mama-antenna. mine is way too sharp, perhaps- i won't leave my girl with nearly any of the men in our family- i have no reason not to trust the ones that i won't leave her with except for my gut. but i trust my gut waaaaaay more than i do my desire to be nice. good luck.

[Anon for now]

I am all for people being concerned about their children's well-being. What upsets me is that we are so trained in this country to suspect every single adult male we know of being a pedophile, and that is absolutely ridiculous.

I have to ask, pnuts mama ... have you explained to anyone why the male members of the family can't be alone with your children? Don't you think they will figure that out? I understand you are protecting your children, and I would never judge you for that. I hope you don't take this that way. I just feel bad for all of the honest, loving men in this country who get dirty looks from mothers on playgrounds for being there with their young daughters. I have heard far too many stories of fathers being questioned about whether that little girl is actually theirs, etc. Having worked in a library, I've seen so many mothers reluctant to trust a male youth librarian, because why on earth would a man want to work with small children if he wasn't a pervert?

Sorry for sort of going off on a tangent there. This subject is obviously a very sensitive one for many people. Honestly, I don't know the alternative. Trusting no one is certainly safer for our children, but so is never letting them leave the house or ride in a car. How do we know where to draw the line?

[Allison]

I dunno... he's an adult looking at stuff on the internet in his own private time. I would hate for someone to scour my internet searches every day!

I think a simple rule of no computer at grandma and grandpa's is pretty straight forward and would be effective.

[rudyinparis]

I actually called DH in on this one. We both agree that having the son give a casual and matter-of-fact user tutorial to the dad is entirely appropriate and doesn't need to be awkward. This probably should be done in any case. It sounds to me like he's not an internet power user and probably just needs to be told some very basic user tools or what have you. I also Allison's suggestion is a good one: no computer time at Gramma and Grampa's house. Entirely reasonable.

****

As for the difference in world view between pnuts mama and anonfornow... My stance is always "Any man that would be so personally offended by my proactively protecting my child does not have my child's best interests at heart and I, therefore, am not concerned with if he is offended." I mean, God forbid we hurt someone's feelings while following our gut instincts. I say: follow your gut and if that makes you seem rude, so be it. Maybe being polite is overrated. And it's not necessarily a worldview of utter distrust of everyone. It's maybe a simple, pragmatic world view. After my dad retired from teaching many people asked him to tutor their kids. He refused. He would never, ever be alone with a child. I similarly have told DH to never, ever, let a neighborhood kid into our house if it's just him there. Period. Does this make me a jerk? Do I loathe humanity? No. I'm just informed and pragmatic. My 2 cents!

[rudyinparis]

I should clarify... my Dad and DH both understand that being alone with a child could potentially put them at risk of being accused of something. So avoiding that situation is a pragmatic stance. It just shows an understanding of the world, on the part of men who truly care for children. Denying this reality seems odd to me. We are so lucky to know now what we didn't know even 50 years ago about patterns of abuse. Being aware of it and being proactive doesn't make us horrible, distrustful people.

I have had way too much coffee today!

[WriterK]

Well, I'm not a sex worker in the usual sense, but I am a sex writer (mostly fiction) and will soon be a mom. I surf some types of adult material on a fairly consistent basis, and I have a shelf of books which will soon be packed away in a very secure place. :) A couple of $.02 from this perspective:

As other posters have noted, it might actually be the MIL, or it might be the two of them together. (Women tend to be less open about admitting that they read or look at adult material, so there aren't clear stats.) Or it might be a third party, like that hacker mentioned in another post (oy!).

Frequency doesn't necessarily imply unhealthiness or addiction. Granted, I don't know how much actual clock time is spent on it each day in that household, but it could just be a comfortable, individual habit. This is the age of the blogosphere, after all, and some sites post frequent updates -- checking a site that one likes or has newly discovered can be a habit, a reflection of curiosity, etc.

In a happy and stable relationship, it can also be a way to "blow off steam" if one partner is in a period of, uhm, "feeling the urge" a lot more than the other, and doesn't want to pressure him/her. I've been in this situation myself... it's not uncommon for two partners to have different levels of desire at different times in their lives. I don't necessarily think that a person should make it a point to divulge it to his or her partner, but I do agree that avoiding a partner for smut, or working super-hard to hide it, can be indicative of a problem, whether it's a matter of communication/openness or something deeper in their intimate life. (It's so much more fun when you can be open and honest about your personal sexuality with a partner, isn't it? That doesn't mean it's always easy, but still...)

So -- anyway -- if I'd been the one to find this stuff on the in-laws' machine, I'd be a little unnerved, too, because there are some things I really don't want to know about my dear in-laws. I wish heartily for their health and happiness and living life to the full, but I sure don't want the details. :)

It's easy to forget a step or two when you're babyproofing for a visitor. There are also a LOT of casual Internet users who just don't realize how their histories are cached, and might not even notice that auto-complete URL feature until it's pointed out to them. (You wouldn't believe some of the stuff that happens on office computers during the day...) My guess is that the original naughty-surfer just didn't realize the breadcrumbs were there, and would probably be mighty embarrassed to realize they were visible.

I think it's entirely reasonable, and appropriate, to create boundaries that protect your child from stuff she shouldn't see; she simply shouldn't be exposed to such things, or to such words in the URL bar while she's sitting at the computer with a family member. Hopefully any parent or grandparent would agree on that. I like the idea of having the husband casually bring it up to the dad, as a wink-nudge sort of thing. Perhaps one of you could create a bookmark for a page that describes how to clear browser history, and casually mention that during the wink-nudge conversation, so they could check it out themselves in a less awkward moment. It's great that the in-laws are willing to share the computer during visits, and my guess is that they'd be more than willing to clear things out, if they realize the breadcrumbs are there in the first place.

And if that actually creates tension, rather than blushing and good-natured agreement, you'll know that there are some more serious things to work out and can proceed accordingly.

Regarding checking out the type of smut itself, I probably would have done the same. There is a pretty big and strange spectrum, when it comes to smut: beyond the larger-scale socioeconomic history and ramifications of it all, there's plenty of material that many would consider fairly harmless. And there's also material that would definitely wave some big red flags. And different people have different feelings on where those lines are, although I think a lot of us would agree on, and be pretty freaked out by, some extremes (such as material involving children or animals).

In most cases (meaning non-extreme ones), I would not pursue a conversation, being respectful of privacy. But if something in there makes you uncomfortable in the family relationship or is triggering for you, IMO, you shouldn't just brush it off. That doesn't necessarily mean that you should bring it up with the original naughty-surfer (who probably intended for that to remain private and might not realize where your own triggers lie), but you deserve support and a listening ear -- from your partner, for example.

[pnuts mama]

anon for now, i think that's a reasonable question- i apologize that my post was all over the place, i'm typing while nursing w/ my non dominant hand while also trying to entertain the pnut and i know i didn't read to edit/clarify.

w/r/t family members i don't trust, mostly it's due to their history, sometimes just a sense i get. both my husband and i come from families who have abuse/incest (although never admitted to, mind you) and i know that men are more likely to abuse if they've been abused. there are plenty of male family members i do trust my kids with- and i'll admit that my control issues probably play a role in this as well. i know i'm definitely overprotective of my kids and i'm not exactly sure why, and i hope i don't do them harm for it, it is something i'm aware of and try to work on.

i wanted to clarify that i'm not trying to alarm folks with the whole "married white dad" statistic, just to bring awareness to it, as many people (my MIL, for example, who should know better) still think it's the homosexuals that abuse kids, never could be dear old uncle so and so.

gotta go, too many people screaming for me here.

[Shandra]

"I am all for people being concerned about their children's well-being. What upsets me is that we are so trained in this country to suspect every single adult male we know of being a pedophile, and that is absolutely ridiculous."

I live in Canada so maybe we're behind, but I actually find the reverse in some ways.

We are trained to look at "strangers" for pedophilia, but not to keep an eye out in our own families and close friends... which statistically is where we need to look.

Asking the questions of ourselves is never, I think, a bad thing. It doesn't have to be done with an aura of suspicion or judgment externally. It's just an internal critical eye, the same way that when you have young kids you enter the house with all the breakable objects and sigh inside.

My dad was abused by my grandfather, who also abused me. That he let me go into that situation just speaks to the complexities of denial and family pressure. That I now am cautious what situations I create or allow with my son and him is just that - dealing with the risk factors. It may be that for a generation or two we do go overboard in the other direction.

There is no requirement for kids, especially little ones, to be alone with someone to bond with them. A little bit of caution sometimes goes a long way.

[Shandra]

Oh I wanted to add - if my son looks back on his life and sees that I was over-protective, and he has no abuse issues to deal with and that's his biggest complaint? I think I would be happy with that outcome. Sometimes you have to choose your mistakes.

[michelle]

And, in response to anon for now...

Obviously, this stinks for all the healthy, non-pervy men out there. But...1) Even healthy men recognize the need for some caution here: my husband is even crazier about this stuff than me. He is absolutely prepared to endure a few dirty looks from over-cautious mothers at playgrounds.

and...

2) I hate to say it, but I think a certain amount of fear is warranted. I totally support the "gut feeling" approach that PNuts Mama mentioned. I'm *trying* to teach my kids to pay attention to their own instincts- which is not easy to do. Bottom line- I don't think PNuts Mama or anybody else needs a reason to limit who watches their kids.

[caramama]

My thoughts on this are also all over the place. I'm not sure I exactly have an opinion, but I do have a couple points to make.

Daily porn viewing does seem a little excessive to me if it's a long-term thing. I generally view porn as men's (and some women's) equivalent to women reading romance novels. Women want to read about romance, men are visually stimulated. I love romance novels myself, and if I'm in the middle of a book, I will read it daily. But I'm not consuming one after another, and there is more to them than just the sex scenes. So there's that.

Another thing I wanted to point out (as others have said) is that porn can be demeaning to women. I'm not against (most) porn, but I have a friend who used to quote studies she'd read that showed how both men and women thought about different genders after watching porn. I don't remember the details, but the subtle ways their opinions changed and became apparent was not to the benefit of women.

So it's one thing to say that the US has a prude view of porn and that it can be a useful tool in marraige and life, but it's another to think about how women are portrayed in the porn that the FIL is looking at. This is his DIL and his granddaughter we are talking about, so I would wonder if daily watching of porn demeaning women is affecting how he views the women in his life, even subconciously. I'm not saying that watching porn puts him at risk for being abusive because I have no idea about that stuff, but it may make him more likely to belittle women or view them in ways that are not empowering. I guess it also depends on the type of porn.

Other than that, I really agree with what Moxie said. If it were me, I would have a talk with hubby and lay out these concerns and tell him that he and I need to come up with a plan to mitigate the risks of the daughters exposure, both to the porn itself and the attitude that might accompany it.

Good luck dealing with this!

[stacy]

Honestly, I don't think there is even a need to make this into A Thing.

On most computers, you can set a number of different user accounts, right? I say just set the grandchild up with her own account where only approved programs are installed, and maybe some sort of filtering software for the internet. Boom, problem solved - any time the child wants to use the computer, she uses her own account, and she does not risk seeing something that she shouldn't.

I imagine it would be fairly easy to insist on setting up a separate account for the kid without even getting into the whole porn thing. You can just say that the Internet is a scary place for kids and you want to make sure that she has a safe account.

As for the FIL looking at porn, it doesn't bother me at all. Unless it's child pornography, obviously. Or if mama has a bad gut feeling about him (which she doesn't seem to, based on the tone of her message.) If he's otherwise a decent sort, I don't think the porn is an issue. Even if he is doing it every single day. He's got his reasons, and it is none of our business.

[anon]

um...

I am a mom of 4 who views porn regularly. Am I addicted? No. Does it tend to spice up my sex life? Sure. Does it endanger my kids? NO!

As long as Grandpa won't be viewing it with kids in the room, this is a non-issue and shame on mom for snooping. If there are other things causing a gut feeling that something is off, then that is a different story.

If porn is all it is, it is none of your business.

[beate]

Seems like there are three basic positions crystallizing in the conversation:

A: the libertarian view: Thoughts are not deeds. Policing each others thoughts is a much greater risk to liberty and freedom from harm than whatever risk is posed by adults viewing porn. This view might be modified by the content that's being viewed--seems like there is a consensus that child pornography crosses the line. Not sure whether that is because thoughts might have something to do with deeds after all or because the children involved in the production of porn had no ability to consent.

B: Porn harms the women who produce it and the women who live with the men and women who consume it. Exactly how watching porn affects the consumer's behavior is hard to predict; not every pornophile is a rapist, pace Dworkin. On the other hand, if I knew someone who indulged his passion for blackface comedy, I'd have a hard time seeing him as anything other than a racist. Somehow, when it comes to sex, we're less likely to draw the conclusion that objectification and ridicule (of women, in this case) in visual media influences how we view people in real life. And as several commenters point out, both pornophilia and child abuse in the family are extremely common. That doesn't mean the people engaging in either activity are the same, but it means that both phenomena are part of the bigger problem, patriarchy.

C: Pornophilia translates into pedophilia. Maybe yes, maybe no. There are obviously more pornophiles out there than pedophiles. On the other hand, many pedophiles probably consume porn in various forms. What does the research say about the link?

The bulk of opinion here seems to converge around position B. This position might be complicated by the fact that definitions of porn vary; some would consider documentaries on breastfeeding pornographic. On the other hand, in the case at hand, there doesn't seem to be much of a question about the pornographic nature of the material.

Me, I'm with position B as well. I would definitely want to bring up the issue (if it were my father) or have my partner do so (if, as in this case, it's his father). I wouldn't allow solo time between grandfather and grandchild.

And no, I'm not a prude, nor am I American. There is lots of nudity in my home; we discuss anatomy all the time; I take my child to beaches where nudity is optional, etc. The problem is not the nudity, but what is being done to whom in what sort of images.

[Melissa B.]

I totally agree with the previous posters who have said just tell the kids no computer. There's no reason why kids need to be on anyone's computer while visiting, and if they understand they are not to be using other people's computers, then you don't need to have that cringeworthy "so I see you like porn... ALOT" conversation. It seems like many kids today are just addicted to the internet, and many parents encourage that obsessive computer use because it seems educational in some way. Just make a 'no computers while visiting' rule, communicate that rule clearly to everyone they visit, and you're set.

Frankly, even the thought of chatting up my FIL about porn is enough to give me hives! :)

[c3]

@melissa:
There really isn't any way of hacking a computer which would in turn lead to items/porn sites being in the browser's history. It just doesn't...work that way.

Two possibilities to check out:
1) some kind of spyware that is leading to re-directs or pop-up/pop-under windows opening; thus placing porn sites in the browser's history even if the pop up is blocked
2) the only other option that someone, wife, husband, child, household member is navigating to said sites

[Jan]

@c3: I want to differ with you here. If someone were using remote desktop, it would. WHY anyone would do such a thing, I'm not sure. It seems hard to imagine being technically savvy enough to think up and use a hack like that, but not technically savvy enough to simply clear your own history when you're done. Maybe someone on a work computer with access to remote desktop, but with internet usage monitored?

I do want to point out that just because there's "a lot" in the history, doesn't mean there was excessive porn-surfing. Many many porn sites (not that I would know from personal experience *ahem*) do the obnoxious open-a-new-window-every-time-a-window-is-closed thing, making it virtually impossible to simply look at one thing. Furthermore, a lot of the pop-up windows are for a different sort of porn altogether, so I would hesitate to jump to the assumption that just because there's what we used to jokingly call "goat porn" (with no offense intended if watching beastiality is what gets you off ...) on there that FIL is a pervert.

You know, you might be able to make use of Melissa's scenario, even if you think it's totally unlikely. I had an IT internship once and we gave more than one executive a 'gentle warning', by asking them to please shut off their computers when they weren't in the office, because their machine's internet activity had led us to suspect that [insert scapegoat here] might be having a little fun on the company dime. Nobody had to be embarrassed, nobody got hurt, but it got the message across that (1) the usage WAS being monitored and (2) that sort of thing was against company rules.

If you're really concerned about your daughter coming across this stuff, when the time comes, you could make a joke about it: "Little Girl is starting to use the internet, so better clear out the PORN before we come to visit!!" Ha ha.

All that said, I'm generally on the side of minding my own business about this sort of thing. If your gut is telling you he's safe, I'd go with that. If it makes you uncomfortable (and you have to examine that to see if it does), you are absolutely within your rights (and responsibilities) as a mother and caregiver to do what needs to be done to keep your daughter safe.

I second the recommendation of Protecting the Gift if you haven't read it.

[pnuts mama]

i'm seriously loving the idea of using remote desktop software to surf for porn- seriously, can you imagine some disgruntled employee being so diabolical to do that? wow.

i'm with caramama on the whole not really knowing where i stand on the issue anymore- i could easily see most points on the spectrum from 'it's a healthy way to explore your sexuality' to 'it's a dehumanizing, degrading and demoralizing activity for both the actor and the viewer.' i personally have watched it, thought some of it ridiculous to the point of LMAO, some sad, some interesting in the 'raise your eyebrow towards your spouse' and see what happens next kind of way. again, i wonder if this is a new thing for FIL, or if the guy is just bored- he checks his email and looks at porn everyday. maybe he needs a hobby- i have a dishwasher that needs to be emptied and walls upstairs to be painted that i could suggest to him if he didn't live so far away, since my own FIL is completely uninterested. is he retired? maybe he could start making things out of wood and selling them since he likes to use his hands.

w/r/t what anon for now et al brought up about being suspicious of all men- i know men who are around kids usually get the once over from overprotective moms- for the majority of those men who aren't abusers, it's unfair, but i suppose if they care about their kids maybe they are doing the same thing with other guys? probably because the stats in the U.S. *are* unnerving- 1 in 4 women have been abused- 1 in 8 men (probably higher since males usually under report abuse)- so for me it's not so wild for me to try and protect my kids from potentially harmful situations. i'm with shandra that if my kids go through life abuse-free but overprotected i'll be happier than the reverse.

rudyinparis- we work with minors and there has been a policy in place for a few years now that adults (male *and* female) and minors (male or female) aren't allowed to be alone in a vehicle together, or a room unless the door is open- made us re-examine creative ways to do counseling, etc. this was as much to protect the kids as it was the adults, so i understand where you're coming from with your husband and dad.

[MLB]

I would just like to make the comment that "vigilance" for want of a better word should be kept in mind whenever our kids are on ANY computer. My four year old plays games on certain preschool websites and once something sounded "off". It was because somehow in less than two minutes with me standing in the adjacent kitchen, she had found "orgy" on youtube (and it was not in the search history as our google/firefox clears each time you log out). My point is that you can't just assume you can set up a safe account on a computer or ban a certain computer and that solves this issue - keeping in mind the basic assumption that preschoolers should not view porn.
Just my .02

[Charisse]

I'd probably go with the discreet "did you know the search autocompletes" thing myself and figure it's otherwise non of my beeswax.

@pnuts mama and Shandra, very interesting--I think I was raised to the outcome you're hoping for. My mother was an abuse survivor and was (still is) extremely fearful and protective. While obviously it doesn't compare to being victimized by an abuser, it took me a LOT of time and therapy to break out of the climate of fear of the world I grew up with. It's absolutely true that keeping children safe is our first responsibility, but I believe giving them a reasonable sense of the fact that things are usually fine is also tremendously important. (And terribly hard to do if that's not your actual experience.) I grew up thinking of every car that slowed at a stopsign as a potential abductor, every stranger that smiled as a danger, and eventually, every man who offered to buy me a beer as a likely rapist. That's not where you want to be. And I want to stress that I don't necessarily think you guys are doing this, just having been the 2nd-generation child in that scenario, it's something to keep an eye on. Your children are safe, through your care and vigilance--just help them know that as much as you can. Blessings to you both.

[Julie]

no computer time at grandparents....I mean, who wants to sit and play on the computer when they could be playing with grammy and papa, doing/eating/playing all the things not allowed (or more likely, just not tolerated) at home??? Wanna jump off the couch into a huge pile of pillows before eating a bowl of ice cream for lunch, then throwing water balloons at each other in the backyard??? SURE!!!!!!

Re: porn....well, I knew a guy many years ago who was in his late 60's early 70's and he shared with a close friend of mine (who was a VERY close friend of his....though looking back am wondering why he chose to share this info with ME.....) that he and his wife had been having some *difficulty* in that area of their lives and he had to satisfy himself much more often than he would like. I think it comes with age, and I think perhaps he might be a guy who wouldn't be caught dead buying a well-known publication at his local market or liquor store, so why not see what's online in the privacy of your own home where no one will know? If the questioner is truly worried for her daughter's safety alone in his company, I might ask what other red flags have been set off for her. Where there is one, there are usually more. I'm not sure, in this particular circumstance, this is a huge red-flag without getting a little more information (via the husband, NOT her).

[Auburn]

I would just say something like. "I should teach you how to clear private data from your computer. We do it everyday since we do banking and shopping online and we wouldn't want anyone to be able to access our info. Do you want me to show you, it's really easy?"

If your gut isn't sending any danger signals, that's a good sign.

[anon for this one]

not to critize moxie, i love your blog and agree 99.9% of the time, but i believe that the discussion of whether porn is OK in general maybe should have been left out of this post. In my mind, it's a completely different issue than Rebecca's immediate issue of how to deal with it in the family.

honestly, i'd be impressed if an older male or female in my family was looking at porn (but would of course be sure those sites would not be seen by my little girl or boy). At least he's in tune with his desires, right? and i disagree whole heartedly with this addiction talk. what about couples who watch porn as part of their nightly romp?

[caramama]

pnuts mama - LMAO at "maybe he could start making things out of wood and selling them since he likes to use his hands." haha!

[anon for today]

my dad kept print porn in our home, and i stumbled across it when i was about 9 or 10 years old. it was under their bathroom sink, behind the towels, and not difficult to find. i won't go into the details regarding how *bad* it was to sexualize me at that young of an age .... so, i would definitely ensure that NO PORN is in any way present when your daughter is at the FIL's. not sure how you'll do that; pp have given lots of great suggestions. sure, it's nobody's business what folks do in their private time, but here ACCESS is the issue. i think there's not enough "data" to make a link -- for the FIL or the MIL -- regarding porn and molestation. i don't read that as the issue, but let me say that i have already peeked into my dad's bathroom cabinets to make sure there's no print porn there that my sons could access.

[anon]

File under: Beeswax, None of Yours

HOnestly if everyone who looked at porn on the computer was a child molester? really? that would be like 98% of dudes. That's preposterous.

[Leila]

Two comments:

1. I just wanted to address "mother's intuition" about pedophiles: I was abused by the father (and teenaged son) of a married w/kids babysitter when I was very young (4 years old), and my mom had no inkling until I told her when I was 16. Gut check is good, but not always reliable.

I would definitely check the type of porn (adult versus "barely legal" or child) to see what kind is being viewed from that computer. I don't think there's a lot of crossover.

2. C3, I was going to bring up the spyware issue. I've picked up spyware on my work computer that results in constantly opening windows with porn sites (hi bosses!). I don't know if those sites would show up in the history in Firefox, though. But it might be useful to check FIL/MIL's computer for this type of spyware, maybe as part of that "wink/nudge" conversation, like Jan's conversations with the distracted executives.

[anon for me too]

as long as we are talking about this, could someone tell me how to check my computer for the spyware that was mentioned above?

[Appalled]

I can't believe that you would even suggest that a man looking at porn would mean that your child is at risk of being raped or molested by him.

You need some help.
No offense, and I hope this doesn't get deleted because I have some very important information for you.
Almost EVERYONE looks at porn online. Probably 99% of men and 80% of women. Yes, men do it daily. The difference is that most people know/bother to hide it/lie about it. Just so you know, your husband looks at porn.
Even if he tells you he doesn't, he probably does.

You obviously have serious issues that you need to sort out.
It's gross to find out what goes on in other people's heads, that old men still like to look at porn and have sex.. it is kind of creepy.. but it is totally normal. Even the teen porn that someone mentioned.. In fact, NOT liking the younger women would be less normal. There is a huge huge difference between teen porn/ barely legal stuff and actual CHILD abuse. So it does not matter what type of porn he is looking up. If it's not child porn, you have absolutely no reason to believe he likes child porn or would ever take advantage of your child.
You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
I'm sorry but it's true and it needs to be said. I feel so sorry for this man (who simply does not know how to clear his search history)..... that you are judging him so much, to the extent of not 'wanting to continue a relationship with him'. Ridiculous.

To everyone else:
No child should be on the internet unsupervised or without parental controls in place. So his search history is absolutely irrelevant, as those sites should be blocked anyway. The simplest way to do things would be to set the computer to clear history/cookies/searches when you close the browser or shut down the computer.
He probably won't even notice/care, and you (woman who submitted the question) can just use your over-active imagination to wonder what he has been looking up 'addictively'

This is precisely why this type of stuff is PRIVATE information, because a simple, innocent thing changes drastically when it is filtered through someone elses brain, and takes on a whole different meaning when they don't know the full story.

You are what is wrong with the world today, branding EVERY male a pedophile, making them scared to give out hugs or kisses, or even go near a child, their own child even.
Why is it that you can hug children and be interested in sex, (and know the difference) but when a man does it, it is suspicious?

[Caroline]

Just have to second the comments that we should never assume ANY computer is safe for a kid to use unsupervised or without parental controls. WAY too easy to stumble onto the unsavory/inappropriate/damaging, whether it's in the browser's history or not.

[Shandra]

Charisse - I think there's a huge grey area between "climate of fear" (especially of strangers, who for the most part don't bother me) and "assume innocence."

In this case I still (personally) would want to know what kind of porn.

I didn't want to weigh in on the issue of porn much but we have a really good spokesperson up here about *child* porn who continually reminds everyone that child porn is not "porn, where you only think about it" but "photographic evidence of child abuse." That thought has been enough to put me off the adult stuff too.

[Leila]

@anon for me too -- (I'm not affiliated with any of the following) The spyware my computer caught was "Virtumonde", which was pretty nasty. I used Spy Sweeper to identify it and get rid of it, but it kept coming back when I logged back on. I ended up downloading a couple of different programs (instructions found through Google) to get rid of it (and the lovely porn ads popping up during meetings) for good.

@Appalled -- Yes, women can be pedophiles, too, but in far fewer numbers than men. (6% of reported cases according to a recent study in Australia.)

For potential molestation purposes, yes the type of porn is probably important. But "barely legal" porn shouldn't get categorized with the adult porn. The lure with "barely legal" porn is that it(apparently) claims to show people who are of age, but who (this is the point) look much younger (think 10 or 15 years old). So, child porn without the legal consequences.

@Rebecca -- your in-laws are probably lovely people who are not in any of these categories.

Now I'm going to go wash my brain with Clorox.

[Leila]

"Studies and case reports indicate that 30% to 80% of individuals who viewed child pornography and 76% of individuals who were arrested for Internet child pornography had molested a child."

from: www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/pdf%2F8204%2F8204sa.pdf

[GS]

Have to agree with the minority opinion here: daily pornography viewing does not an addiction make; better to just regulate your daughter's internet experience in general (at FIL, at home, etc.); unless there are other signs (child pornography, inappropriate behavior around the family/your daughter etc.) a very awkward "I notice you like porn" conversation is unnecessary. Also, that you said "I find it embarrassing to ask about porn" in the preface to your question says as much about your attitude (porn = shame) as your FIL's habit. But, as a mother, I do understand your concerns all the same!

[Evany]

Uggggh.

I get so extremely sick of people claiming that Americans are uniquely screwed up about sexuality.

I'm a citizen of two countries - the US and one of the countries you think of when you think "Wow, liberated bikini models!" - and I can tell you absolutely for sure that people all over the planet, even ones you fetishize as "better, sexually" than Americans, have issues with sex stuff. My God, can we just stop with this? It's so very irritating, and so very untrue.

Ugh, and the kneejerk "Well, I like porn, and I'm fine, so how dare you snoop and judge!!!!" responses. Not a fan of those. I distinctly remember being exposed to pornography as a very young child by a family member who meant no harm and was just sloppy with the stashing of the Hustlers, and you know, whatever you want to do as an adult is your business, but yeah, you need to take care not to expose little kids to certain things. That's not puritanical or judgmental or hypocritical. Exposing young children to pornography is uncool of the adult and damaging to the child.

I hate talking to people about porn. I genuinely don't care if you're into it, but man, people get so tense about it.

I am absolutely revolted, to be clear, by "Appalled" above, who takes his (or her, but... come on, you're a dude, right?) fear of being judged so far as to yell at the OP for daring to express concern about someone's fitness to be around her kid.

That argument just... drives me crazy. What we need in this world is for moms (and dads, and the kids themselves!) to listen to their gut feelings MORE, not to shout them down because they worry that expressing concern will make someone else (=almost always a man, have you noticed?!?) uncomfortable or feel judged or unloved.

Witness this whole thread of debate! The OP discovers something that makes her feel mildly uncomfortable, and is checking to see if she should do anything about it, and if so what. I think the answer here is along the lines of Moxie's terrific, sensible one: tell your husband to talk to his dad about clearing his internet history, and feel it out from there.

It is totally appalling to me to see so many other parents shouting down this poor woman's instincts. For shame. Her job as a mom isn't to make other people feel okay, it's to protect her baby.

[Suzie]

Rebecca - as a victim (I am one too) I understand your need to reality-check. Please don't feel that is a bad thing. Trusting yourself can feel impossible when you want to protect your child from what you have personally endured. I would check the sites for child content to allow that relationship to remain solid. Until recently I regularly checked my husbands.

I spoke to my Mum recently (she was also abused) and I talked about how I don't trust anyone with my daughter. ANYone, male or female alike. She said she is exactly the same, not even my father (her husband of 44 years). And I said to her 'You don't need to worry about Dad, he never harmed us, he never would.' At that moment, after 42 years of having female children under her protection ie, from the birth of my sister, my Mum could finally trust him. It also struck me that I could trust him with my daughter as well. And it only took 42 years. That breaks my heart because my father is the kindest, most loving, gentle man, and I am seeking counselling so i don't need to wait 42 years to trust my husband.

Despite what 'Appalled' said it is ok to not trust. It doesn't make you a bad person. Most important it is ok to acknowledge you don't trust so you can work from there.

[pnuts mama]

@charisse- you raise a really good point, and one that i am really in tune to- trying to balance protecting my kids with allowing them to grow through life's experiences and ups and downs on their own journey...tough to be sure. i certainly don't want my kids to live a life a fear (and let me be clear- i don't, either) but just to be aware of potential dangers and to trust their own instincts as well.
protecting the gift is next on my list of books to get!!

[Maeve]

I love what Evany said.

fyi, my ex is a sex addict. Daily viewing of increasingly harder porn was a part of his problem. He has used porn since he was a teen, adn I knew about the porn going into the relationship, and it didn't bother me at all. I was, as many of the posters above feel so strongly about, very open-minded and non-judgmental about the whole thing.

But it affected his views about women, absolutely. And sex. And his need for increasingly, for lack of a better word, 'worse' images was a problem, definitely. Started off with Penthouse, ended up with hardcore fetish sites and barely legal. (note: porn IS addicting, and it DOES habituate; there is a reason why the kind of porn people habitually view today is so much more hardcore than it was before the internet, and it's NOT because people are just exploring what was always there--for a good discussion of how this works see the Brain That Changes Itself). And then there was the sex addiction, so eventually he acted out on it, as well, including prostitutes. Didn't see any of it coming. Porn's normal and healthy! Right?

Well, maybe sometimes; and maybe sometimes not. Sometimes it is a real danger signal. And if I were a mom in this position, I would err on the side of my child's safety, not my FIL's privacy and comfort level.

[Moxie]

Appalled, I am not going to delete your comment.

But, how DARE you insult someone or condemn them for trying to protect their child?

That is not and never will be OK. On my site or in the world. Just a reality check for you.