Yesterday you guys were asking about dividing up and scheduling chores around the house, so I figured we should do an entire post on that. I'm not making this a Q&A because I have little practical knowledge of how to divide up chores in a way that makes everyone feel OK about it. I know what I think should happen, but I'll leave the actual advice to those of you who have functional relationships.
What I think should happen is that each partner does their work (whether it's paid work or childcare work) and then the partners split the other chores 50/50. That doesn't mean that you keep a log and alternate who washes dishes, but that the total tasks that need to be done end up being done so each of you has an approximately equal share. So if one of you is fine with laundry and the other hates it, the person who doesn't hate it does it, and the other one does something else.
To me, the key assumption here is that child care is actual work. Which, duh, of course it is. (In Manhattan, it's work that gets paid at $15 an hour for one child.) And, yes, it's certainly possible to get a load of dishes or laundry done during the day (if you're home all day and have your own washer and dryer), just as it's possible to be a novelist or academic or other person who works full-time at home and do some chores during the day. The same way it's possible to be someone who works in an office all day and pay some bills online, schedule doctor appointments, and do some online shopping. But you can't do chores to the detriment of your primary job, whether it's writing technical manuals or trading bonds or caring for a three-year-old. That leaves most of the chores for "non-work" hours.
So, those of you who have or are working this out, what have you done? How often do you readjust and reassign? (I'm assuming that all this stuff changes as the size of the family changes, kids get older, job situations change, etc.) Those of you for whom it's not working, have you identified ways you could make it work better for everyone? (I can't really recommend divorce as a solution, although it has, technically, eliminated the problem.) Is the problem something you can change easily, like by hiring a bi-weekly cleaner? Or is this part of a bigger issue?
Well, Ashley, I dunno, I don't get shit done when my kid's around and he's no half dozen homeschoolers. yesterday he was well but waiting the 24 hour quarantine period after a fever, and I was working from hoome and it was the longest, screamingest day EVAR, he watched elmo 3 times, crushed an entire sleeve of saltines on the floor to a fine dust, and wouldn't get off my lap for hours.
Posted by: shirky | June 25, 2008 at 02:42 PM
@hedra, the modeling stuff is really interesting--I think that a lot of well-intentioned 70s parents taught their sons to take care of their own stuff and not expect it all to be done for them...but HUGE GAP, didn't teach them to expect do things for others. This one comes up a lot with Mr. C and me--he will automatically clear his own dishes from the table, scrape and rinse them, neatly put them in the dishwasher, and wander back to his laptop. That's ingrained. However, it takes huge concentration, or me bugging him, for it to occur that he could clear Mouse's and my dishes at the same time. If he's got something on his mind, he reverts to the model. He recognizes it and works on it, but as you say...creeping.
Posted by: Charisse | June 25, 2008 at 02:45 PM
I guess we are pretty close to 50/50, but I need to be reminded sometimes that dh does a lot of the stuff I can't see or don't want to see, and stuff I just can't do due to the complexity of Italian bureaucracy. For example for the 10 hours I work a month sometimes, he is putting as much time in just sorting out the paper-work, and obviously not getting paid for it. I mean he has even gone as far as saying it's not worth me working for all the added work he has to do. But that's another topic.
My issue is that I don't ever get a rest from the kids (3.5 years and 17.5 months). Unless I go to work and then my MIL steps in, but she only ever takes them off my hands for work, important errands, not because I want to go shopping, have a nap, read a book, you know fun stuff. My husband was good with our older child, shared a lot of the duties. With my daughter, he does sweet FA, but to be honest that is due to her bed time, which is always before he gets home. We both talk about the day that he will put both to bed when he gets home, like he does with our son, but we'll have to wait a while for that. I know he does so much else around the house: all the gardening, the extra-ordinary maintenence, book-keeping, vaccumes and washes the floors, dries the dishes/unpacks the dish-washer, but just one time, I would love him to offer to feed the little one or give the kids a bath.
Posted by: paola | June 25, 2008 at 02:54 PM
I was going to say something similar to shirky. Let's all remember that each child has unique needs and personality.
Some days when I'm home watching my hihg-enery, clingy toddler, there is no way I could get anything else done. I usually have way more energy to get things done after a full day WOH and commuting.
Posted by: caramama | June 25, 2008 at 02:55 PM
OK, you guys are making me feel pretty guilty. I work full time in an office, my husband works from home (flexible schedule, but at least as many hours as I do, I think). He does all the shopping, cooking, laundry drop-off and pickup, anything that needs fixing, bills... basically all I do is wash the dishes, keep my own clothes off the floor, and help organize garbage and recycling once a week.
He doesn't complain, and seems to manage to get things done fairly effortlessly. I'm as appreciative as I can be, because I know I have it good.
For those of you who are more like my husband, would it make a difference if you were praised/appreciated more? I make sure every day that my husband knows how much I appreciate him running our home life. And of course, if he ever asks me to do something, I'll do it (errands, shopping, etc), but in general he takes care of things.
We're expecting our first kid in 10 days. I have 4 months maternity leave, so I'll try to do the lion's share of childcare during that time, but once I'm back in the office, I expect he'll take on more than his "fair" share of childcare work as well.
Anyway, it's working for us for now. The whole "what's fair" thing is a little perplexing to me, because although our situation isn't fair at all, we are still fairly happy!
Posted by: Zoë | June 25, 2008 at 02:57 PM
"But child care isn’t necessarily hard or demanding..."
WHAT THE EFF?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope that was a joke.
Posted by: r+k+mama | June 25, 2008 at 02:58 PM
Ashley must just have a really easy kid. Lucky her.
Posted by: Monica | June 25, 2008 at 03:10 PM
I think the extent to which child care is demanding can be highly variable, depending on one's personality and one's child (and the same child can have phases of very easy and very hard, as she ages and develops). For example, when I went back to work when my first child was 3 months old, I thought my job (librarian) was SO MUCH easier than caring for my kid. In comparison, when I went back to work (same job) when my second child was 8 weeks old, I did miss some of that "sitting around the house with a baby hanging out." But it was *me* who was different (and the babies, although neither was super-difficult).
It's very hard to do housework with an 18 month old who wants his arms around your neck or legs every single moment, except when he's grabbing for the knives. It's easy to do housework with a 4 year old who likes quiet play and likes to help sort laundry. It all depends.
Posted by: flea | June 25, 2008 at 03:15 PM
Keep in mind, folks, Ashley has a 4 month old. One. Apparently with a mild enough temperment that she can mess around on the computer and watch tv in one day. Both! Yes, former preemie, so she's had some stress in there. But ...
Ashley, I sincerely hope you end up with as easy a crawler, toddler, and preschooler as you have a baby. Otherwise it might be a bit of a shock. I do know someone who did. And then she had a second child, since she had it so locked up. Totally flattened her, and her husband, in one go. I know someone else who got two easy kids, and stopped. But she kept her friends from leaving her in droves because she knew she was an exception, not the rule. I was lucky to get to a playgroup once a week, and usually late... so, um, consider that perhaps your situation is easy because you have a) an easy baby, and b) a skill set that intersects beautifully with your child's needs, and c) a temperment that isn't completely at odds with the schedule set by/around/with your child.
All that said, there is equal point in what Ashley said to 'not keeping score' on the work-at-work vs the work-at-home, just like on the my-chore/your-chore lists. If you're keeping score, someone's gonna lose, and that's not a good plan. If you're just aware of what the other is doing, that's useful info, and allows us to be grateful for what was done, either side. It would be as problematic to say 'I'm working in a stressful job with the company going down the rat hole, so my job counts more than yours which is at a nice company with a future'. Understand, not measure or compare.
I don't compare childcare to my work - no contest, my job is easier than childcare. Granted, it's hard enough that we've had to fire a few people, and not-extend-contract (*cough*) on a few others, and maybe 1 in 15 people who look qualified can actually DO the job. So, um, not at all 'easy' - but easier than childcare, to me. But I still consider both childcare AND my job to be 'real jobs worthy of paying attention to and doing fully'.
Posted by: hedra | June 25, 2008 at 03:18 PM
There's so much I want to respond to here- I'll try to keep it on the shorter side...
I do 90% of our housework right now since my husband is working 65 or 70 hours a week temporarily (probably through the summer). I get done what must be done but no big cleaning right now.
I'm another one with a mom that didn't clean or teach us to clean- she let everything go until it was so bad you could hardly do anything in the house, and then we'd have a cleaning weekend where everyone had to work and clean all day for 2 days and she would "supervise". When we first were married we really struggled with this because my husband was raised in a super sterile house and my house was the complete opposite. 7+ years later we've reached a medium where I get done as much as I can with occasional help from him, and if something bothers him bad enough he takes care of it. My oldest will be 3 soon, and he does a lot of chores along with me- he really likes to vacuum and wash dishes, but he's not so impressed with laundry. I do find a lot of value in asking him to work with me so that he knows that the house is not just magically taken care of (as my husband seemed to think even as a grown man) and so that he knows how to do things thoroughly.
Also- who mentioned the "almighty oz" thing? That's me since we had our first child. I manage everything child-related, our social life, our finances, our EVERYTHING and my brain is going to explode soon because I also own a business and I deal with those things for the business as well. There is just too much in my brain.
Posted by: violingirl | June 25, 2008 at 03:20 PM
I think the "child care is easy comment" is because Ashley's child is only 4 months old. Yes, infancy is hard but if you have a decent sleeper/napper, you have a lot of down time (which many moms need to catch up on sleep if their child is not sleeping through the night). Advance forward to the child being awake 8+ hours during the day, active and into everything and I think that comment would change.
My boys are 3. We have a nanny and the only chores we expect of her to deal with while watching them are their laundry (can be folded while they are taking their afternoon nap), unloading the dishwasher (again during nap), and getting their meals together (much of that is already prepped by me the night before). Otherwise, we KNOW it is a full time job just to make sure they are safe, entertained, protected from each other (fighting, biting, hiting, etc.), interacted with, etc.
On the rare day I stay home from work, it is a lovely change and yes, I can get slightly more done around the house than those days I'm at work. The biggest one is just getting dinner ready a little earlier while the boys are napping which makes the evening go so much smoother/on schedule. Otherwise, I don't have time to do vaccuming (sp?), cleaning the bathroom, etc.
Posted by: Maureen | June 25, 2008 at 03:25 PM
Yes to the Oz thing!! My husband actually carries the weight on household chores but I'm fairly positive absolutely nothing would get accomplished if I didn't tell him the whats and the whens. Yes, sometimes I feel like his mother but then I remember how long it has been since I cleaned the litter box so I shut my mouth. Delicate balance:).
And to add to my WTF standpoint on Ashley's comment, I had a very undemanding easy first baby that allowed me to get housework done and some fun stuff too, but I would have never made the outrageous (IMHO) comment that childcare is neither demanding or hard. To me, it's unfortunate and disrespectful to those struggling.
Posted by: r+k+mama | June 25, 2008 at 03:44 PM
Man, I remember calling my husband in tears the first day I was home alone with our one-month-old and telling him that it was the hardest thing that I'd ever tried to do in my life. Work ain't nothing compared to months of anxiety and broken sleep. And I wasn't even trying to do anything more complicated than shower and brush my teeth during the average day.
So I'm another person who'll just have to say that the baby's temperament and sleep habits matter a LOT.
That said, I'm relatively glad that we got a trial by fire at the beginning, because if we'd gotten one of those napping-in-the-carseat-20-hours-a-day models that I hear exist, I would in no way have been prepared for toddlerhood. Assuming I'm prepared for toddlerhood now... he's currently crawling everywhere and he'll be walking any day now, it seems, so wish me luck!
My Wednesday off is the most fulfilling day of the week, but also the most tiring. Some days (like today) a twenty-minute nap in the stroller is the only nap time I get.
Thank goodness for my mother-in-law who lives nearby and is very happy to take my little energizer baby off my hands from time to time.
Posted by: Parisienne Mais Presque | June 25, 2008 at 03:56 PM
I'm with Liza--my standards have slipped. And I hate it. I am thinking about hiring a cleaning service, but I just haven't gottten up the nerve to do it yet. Seeing that so many ladies on here have help makes me feel not so bad that I just can't handle it all on my own!
Posted by: mogget | June 25, 2008 at 04:06 PM
@Samantha- You are not the only one! DH and I haven't reached the therapy level yet...but we have similar issues.
-When he is talking about feeling emasculated, does he mean henpecked over the housework? or outshined regarding your jobs?. This strikes me as really important, in terms of understanding where he is coming from.
-I've had the best luck getting DH to agree to do a few, specific tasks on a daily basis. I have to consciously leave him alone and not comment on his performance. I've had terrible luck with the "I am so overwhelmed and if you cared about me you wouldn't be such a couch potato" speech. But maybe that's just us.
-I will say that I have a lot of sympathy for anyone trying to figure out whether you're just hitting a rough patch or whether you'd be better off apart. Ultimately I decided that housework is a stupid reason to get divorced and that, if need be, I would rather let most of my chores just go and live in filth than split up. But I can easily see ending up with a different conclusion if the problems went much deeper than that.
Posted by: michelle | June 25, 2008 at 04:10 PM
I have become a SAHM to our two-month-old baby. I maintain the appearance and food supply of the household. I dont like to think of what I do as "chores" b/c I see what I do as part of my job. I take care of the child and the house while my husband is at work. I do not usually work while my husband is home b/c I want to spend time w/ him or do some things alone w/ out the baby. On weekends, I rarely work outside of normal daily functions such as putting dirty dishes in the dishwasher. Dh is off work on the weekends, so it is our family time, not work time. We share childcare duties when he is home.
The way Im able to manage this is I have a specific room to clean on each weekday. I clean it while dd is napping. When the room is spotlessly clean (dusted and everything), I can be done cleaning for the day if I so choose. I have tried FlyLady in the past and found it too scattered for me. I do best if I only focus on one room at a time. This also makes my cleaning go faster as I clean my bathroom once a week, so Im not faced w/ scrubbing out lots of soap scum. Theres just no time for it to build in a week. I see the cleanliness and maintenance of my home and child as my job. Dh works a full-time job w/ long hours and occasionally works a part-time job as well so that I can stay home w/ the baby. I do not think it is fair to expect him to be gone from the house and working for 12+ hours and then ask him to do chores as well. Okay, he does have 3 chores: taking out trash, lawn mowing, and bill paying, but he did those before dd was born and we both know that if I were in charge of bills, we would have lost our house long ago, haha. This is working very well for us & I think it helps us to appreciate what the other does all day. It also gives us lots of down time together, which is nice.
I agree w/ posters who said that what I do all day is WAY less demanding than what my husband does all day. I have taken naps, gone swimming, visited friends, & gone shopping while he writes shift reports and manages a lot of difficult people. Even my paying job, before dd was born, was easier than his paying job, and that was being a teacher to 10 2-year-olds while pregnant!
Posted by: Foster | June 25, 2008 at 04:21 PM
re: But child care isn’t necessarily hard or demanding and it’s not too tough to do some housework (or WAH office-type work) at the same time.
I could not disagree more. But I have a three year old that is constantly demanding my attention. It is non-stop. And then his sister will chime in with her needs, and then his other sister... and that is besides the tying the shoes for the 10th time, bandaging the inevitable summer boo boo, bathing, clothing, feeding, giving snacks too, approving that "yes you can ride your bike up and down the street," and it goes on and on and on. In my book, the MOST demanding job is caring for my children... it is 24/7 and never stops. And I LOVE LOVE LOVE them more than anything, but they cause more "work" for me than any other thing in my life. Just my thoughts. Wish it was play all day... but I do work too (a real job), and have the job as parent... gets to be a lot :)
Posted by: WAHM | June 25, 2008 at 04:52 PM
hmm, well, it's great that you are so awesome at this job/life, but put it down as one I am hopeless at, along with sales and truck driving. Good thing I kick all kinds of ass at my actual job or I might feel like crap reading this.
And it's an interesting system you have there, but I can't even picture how one goes swimming with a two month old, and I have no concept of what spotlessly clean means. I feel like a winner when I can move the chairs out of Roomba's way! Like See, I helped Roomba! I RULE! Bonus if I empty its little dirt cup.
Posted by: shirky | June 25, 2008 at 04:57 PM
I think we might be the only people who have let their cleaner go, and have felt great relief for that fact. The PRESSURE to have to tidy the house every week (or every other week) so that she could actually CLEAN THE HOUSE was more than we could bear. Since letting her go, we do what needs to be done about a week or two past when it should have been done. But that's tolerable for us. The stuff that we really struggle with (like folding laundry) is stuff she didn't do for us anyways. Now we're free and saving the money we'd use to pay her for other things. We really don't miss her. But if you were to come over to our house, you would definitely know we do our own cleaning.
Posted by: Julie | June 25, 2008 at 05:01 PM
The side debate about what is "harder"- child care or outside of the home work is interesting. I think a lot depends on the personality of the child. But I also think some of it is due to the fact that, like any job skill set, some people are better at child care than others.
I think those of you who think your job at home with the kids is much easier than your husband's job outside the home are underestimating how good you are at what you do. Maybe for you it is, but that doesn't mean that it would be for me. There is a saying about how when you find the thing that seems easy to you but hard to lots of other people, you have found what you are meant to do for work. Loving your children and being really good at child care aren't the same thing. Child care involves skills, which some people will be better at than others. I love my daughter to bits, and I work hard to be a good mother, but I realized very early on that full time child care was NOT something I was particularly good at, and that we were all better off if we paid someone else to do some of the child care while I went to work and did something I AM good at.
Posted by: Cloud | June 25, 2008 at 05:15 PM
wow. Just read the rest of the posts. Um, childcare is not easy at our house either. I THINK it was easier when Alex was 4 months old (or 2 months old or ANY months old) than it is now. I have vauge memories of doing crossword puzzles as he rolled around on his gym mat staring at the purple elephant. Lots of tv watching during nursing time. And playdates were really for me and the other mommies, not so much for him. Long in-depth (and uninterrupted except for crying silenced by a boob) conversations about sleep and eating, losing weight, husbands, whatever. Now if we schedule playdates at parks, we can pretty much forget about visiting with each other because the kids don't necessarily want to do the same things that would allow us to chat while they play.
There are definitely some tough things about caring for newborns.....mostly the not knowing what it is they need, the sleep regressions, the huge learning curve of a new role and new job. But I don't recall it being as emotionally and physically draining as caring for a preschooler is. But preschoolers are also much more fun. Usually. Most of the time. Except when they're not. YES! NO! I DON'T KNOW!
Living with a preschooler is sometimes like being a personal assistant to a high-strung movie star.
Posted by: Julie | June 25, 2008 at 05:18 PM
Well, I was a single mother until May, so I don't have a huge amount of experience with this.
I do know that Flylady helped me enormously when I was single -- I went back to her website earlier this month and was a little disappointed that it wasn't really speaking to me anymore.
We tend to split the chores evenly by the simple technique of almost always doing them together. What can I say -- we're newlyweds. Sometimes I clean up the kitchen and run a load of laundry while I'm home with the kid -- sometimes it's still there to be done when he gets home. I am working on BEING OK with this -- he certainly is.
Posted by: Bobbe | June 25, 2008 at 05:53 PM
@hedra, good call re: the roles. His mom stayed at home and did EVERYTHING. She readily admits that she spoiled him. I had almost broken him of this by the time our daughter came around then it all went to pieces again. So he could very likely be going back to what he learned/saw as a child. But the difference is that his dad earned a whopping big salary and DH definitely does not. And I think this is affecting his self-image pretty negatively right about now. It has come up in therapy and the therapist has suggested individual counseling to him but he has yet to do it.
I feel like Shandra and Michelle that unfair chore division is a bad reason to divorce so I'm trying to make it work even if I have to do most all of it myself, but some days it just seems so UNFAIR. And I wonder why I should stay with a person who is not attempting to make this into a partnership or get help.
All I can do at this point is try to get help for myself, I guess. I am thinking a housecleaning service might be a good step. Even though I hate spending money on something I can do myself, it'd be nice to have that spare time and peace of mind.
Posted by: Samantha | June 25, 2008 at 05:59 PM
we just allocate two-three hours on sundays to cleaning - all hands on, including the four year old's. I do nothing else (besides load dishwasher, and other minor daily things) any other day of the week. works beautifully.
i remember though, growing up, that the ammount of work one was doing for chores was a constant argument.
Posted by: rita | June 25, 2008 at 06:44 PM
@Samantha, I hope you find a solution that works for you soon. I think one of the hardest things about marriage is accepting our partner's limitations, making peace with what you know you cannot change, knowing what of things are OK for you and what things are not- and then somehow making all of that work out.
My Hubby may sound great on the housework front (and he is), but he is not perfect. No one is. Sometimes his imperfections chafe, but they are things I knew about when I married him and decided I could live with. I find that when I am fuming about one of his limitations, it helps if I remember the positive things that balance that out and make me want to stay with him. I'd guess that if the positive things ever stopped balancing the negative things, it would be time to leave, but I am very, very glad that I haven't had to think about that too deeply.
Posted by: Cloud | June 25, 2008 at 06:59 PM
Our situation: I am married, have a 13-month-old. I am a writer and mostly work from home. My husband works outside the home.
I have found that so long as there is a clear set of expectations and everyone is making a good-faith effort, things are remarkably relaxed.
I am definitely the homemaker. To the point that if people knew how we divided our responsibilities, they would be horrified and wonder if I was some kind of oppressed wife, I imagine. (As a feminist, I somehow feel vaguely defensive about how I organize my domestic things, so I tend not to talk about it.) I really do not ever feel that awful sense of resentment building because E. doesn't notice his socks on the floor: the deal we have is that most things in the domestic sphere are mine. And I don't think E. ever feels resentful that I don't even open the cable bill, I just it on his desk.
It's like we're both specialists within our marriage, and because the expectations and boundaries of what our specialties are are so clear, and because... I almost want to say that because we're both so specialized, instead of resenting the other person not pulling their weight, we're full of appreciation that they do such a great job, if that makes sense. I am very appreciative and thankful that he is willing and capable in the areas of money management and car maintenance, etc, and he is happy and appreciative that he always has clean clothes and that food magically happens.
It was really one of the things I was expressly hoping to do differently in marriage than I did, say, in roommate situations: I am no stranger to the "Seriously, do you just not notice that we're out of toilet paper?" resentment building over time, and I really, really wanted to organize my marriage differently. I never felt that I wanted a straight down the middle split of responsibilities, I just wanted to feel like I was partnered with someone who had the same end goal of a happy homelife.
Of course, I'm very lucky to have a career that allows me a lot of flexibility, and equally lucky to be partnered with a man who was also interested in a kind of more traditional division of labor.
Posted by: Eva | June 25, 2008 at 07:05 PM
Did you see this topic was front page of the NY Times magazine not this past Sunday but the one before?
Anyway, my husband and I share all the household stuff very evenly... but we don't keep score and we still specialize. (He cleans the kitchen nightly, I pay the bills, etc.) But the key is that he wants to and always expected to because that's how it was done in his house growing up.
One of the reasons I'm happy I have a boy is the opportunity to raise another male to believe that it is natural to share household and parenting tasks equally!
Posted by: cat, galloping | June 25, 2008 at 08:32 PM
re the comments about childcare being undemanding....
I have a 10 month old who crawls like the wind and is cruising like crazy and is just about to walk.
When he was 6 months old, for example, he was delighted to jump in his doorway jumper for 45 minutes at a time while I worked (I was working at home at the time). Or did laundry. Or cleaned. No problem.
Those days are long past. I find it a challenge to get anything done around the house while he's awake-- he's just into EVERYTHING and really needs a constant eye to make sure he's safe. And my mentally-demanding work is out of the question if he's awake. This certainly wasn't the case when he was younger and less mobile. I now go into the office 4 hours a day-- the only way I can keep up with work. And I expect that it'll become more challenging before it becomes less challenging.
As for chores...my mom's house always was and is spotless. It's therefore hard for me to adjust to not having a spotless house. My husband, on the other hand, had a working mom (separated from his dad). He grew up doing his own laundry, making his own dinner, cleaning up after himself. She also keeps a very neat/clean house, but he doesn't expect me to take care of the housework. On one hand that's great-- he recognizes that we split the childcare and outside-the-home job time 50-50, so the housework doesn't all fall on me. But I'm much more troubled by messes than he is!
We've been married just 3 years and are still new to this parenthood thing, so I feel we're still figuring things out as far as roles go. We both do our best; we try to keep the other's needs in mind; we try to be considerate. We try to keep it a partnership, not a me vs. you situation. For us, that's the most important thing.
Posted by: Diane | June 25, 2008 at 10:30 PM
"Living with a preschooler is sometimes like being a personal assistant to a high-strung movie star."
WORD. Precisely. Julie, you are my soul sister.
I am a SAHM (except when I freelance, very very late at night, sometimes--so irregular I can't get a babysitter), and I have a very hard time getting things done during the day. My two year old tries to use the dishwasher as his own personal jungle gym if it's open. Both my kids (2 and 4) will jump around in the laundry, so that is folded/put away at night. They will help (esp the 2 year old) to do some small tasks--put clothes in the washer, clear their [plastic] dishes--but the thing that frustrates me is that I never get a chunk of time to get things accomplished. The 2/5/10 minute increments between requests for food and having to stop the hair pulling are not good for anything.
Sometimes I manage to get things done while the little one is napping. Sometimes I have terrible nights prior and just need to, you know, eat lunch and watch Bravo and breathe slowly in and out before he wakes up. Or, on very rare occasions, nap with him so I don't kill anyone later in the afternoon.
Also I have come to acknowledge that around here, sometimes the messes are for a good reason. Lately every morning the kids take all the bed pillows in the house and drag them to the living room. They pile on the comforters and pretend. I live in an apartment so there is not a lot of room to do this--it takes up a lot of the living space. But they are playing together! Creatively! and not hitting or pushing for whole minutes at a time! Worth the mess! Do it all day! We need a house with a playroom, STAT!
We have a cleaning lady. She is not the world's best cleaner but she is reliable and lovely. Wednesday night is totally stressful because I am trying to get the house in shape for her; all the other tasks get piled up and HAVE TO GET DONE. But Thursday afternoon my house is clean and it's worth it, until the next Wednesday.
My husband will do anything...if I ask. I hate that I have to ask. Nag, really, in an outrageously bitchy way. I hate the dynamic. He pays lip service to the idea that staying at home is a JOB and is EXHAUSTING. Does he believe it? I think he does--but then why won't he do the dishes take out the trash or change over the laundry unless I beg?
Posted by: Kate | June 25, 2008 at 10:39 PM
@Ashley: THANK YOU!!
Posted by: Nic | June 25, 2008 at 10:42 PM
I found the comments so interesting today. It is such a great debate and one I have thought about and discussed with my husband and friends on several occasions. I feel that childcare is very demanding, yet I would SO rather be home taking care of my 16 month old daughter than sitting in my husband's office all day! It's not that I think his job is harder or easier than mine...I just know I would not enjoy sitting in a cubicle all day in front of a computer. I also hated my job before I had my daughter. There is nothing I can think of that I would rather do than care for her everyday. I try to keep up with the housework, mostly during her naps, but we also pay a cleaner to come very other week. It is very hard to do everything involved in really cleaning and managing a house (especially with three cats) without neglecting/ignoring my daughter in some way for at least part of the day. At this age, she is very clingy and demanding of my attention while she is awake, but I love it. I do get to go to playdates and swimming, which I enjoy, but is also part of raising her and giving her meaningful social experiences. It's all part of the job and it's a job I love and a job I feel that I am good at. I think Cloud had a good point about that.
I also just want to mention that the amount of sleep you are getting SO plays a role. My daughter just started sleeping through the night (I mean ALL the way through the night) a week ago and I feel like a different person. In the early months, there were days when the smallest thing seemed like the end of the world. I could barely keep up with cutting my toenails, let alone mopping the floor!
Posted by: Heather | June 25, 2008 at 11:06 PM
Things have definitely fallen apart around the house here since having a bub. I have been considering getting a cleaner, to get rid of some of my stress at the mess. But then I worry what this will model to our son as he grows up. Although it must be better than what I am currently modeling. I'd rather him help me with the chores, when he is old enough. But that isn't what is happening now. Maybe a cleaner for a while would be a good idea for me, and phase them out when bub is old enough to help (or at least watch without screaming).
Posted by: Tor | June 25, 2008 at 11:08 PM
So, I've thought about this all day and finally have time to comment (well, actually I don't have time as I have folded laundry that needs to be put away, about 40 essays to grade by tomorrow, oh and it's 11pm here and as husband and I had a "discussion" about how he needs me to be available to care for #3 tomorrow morning when he wakes the baby at the crack of dawn b/c baby still co-sleeps and DH has to get to work early I really should just be going to bed... but I digress).
I realized as I thought about it today that in terms of household "chores" I'd say we're pretty much 50/50. We split the normal chores along predictable lines.
My real beef is with the STUFF and childcare. The childcare imbalance is the pretty standard "they prefer you". But, omg, why does all the STUFF belong to me? Why am I in charge not just of my stuff but of all three kids' stuff as well? Why is it my job to organize and then clean out the baby's bag? Why are the older kids' lunch boxes my job? Shoes? My job. Swim bag? Mine. Mail that doesn't specifically have his name on it? You guessed it.
This drives me crazy because my inability to manage all this stuff drives him crazy. He's found of saying we live in a "sh!t hole" and as the daughter of a hoarder who comes from a long line of hoarders herself, our house is a far cry from a "sh!t hole." Yes, the swim bag hangs on the front closet door knob (empty of anything wet). There are shoes on the stairs. The baby's bag is sitting on the dining room floor. There is folded laundry on a chair in the den. There are toys here and there. But nothing about our house is unhygienic. It is certainly not a "sh!t hole." Quite frankly, I wouldn't even call our house "messy" (of course, this could be b/c I grew up in a "messy" house). I called him on this tonight as he was in one of his rants. The problem is... he's not interested in helping. He's already doing his share... all the rest is up to me. Really, more than anything in our marriage... the STUFF causes all of our problems.
@Samantha--Do NOT split up because you already feel like a single parent. As a divorced mom, let me tell you that unless you have other issues going on, his lack of help around the house is not a good excuse to irrevocably change your child's life. I do not regret my divorce (our issues ran deeper than the fact that he was rarely around to help), but I ache for my older children everyday as I watch them juggle life between two homes. I often joke to my mom that I went from being a single parent to 2 children to the single parent of 3 (b/c my husband/father of #3 does so little actual childcare). But even the little bit he does do is better than none.
And I'll wrap up this seriously long comment by weighing in on which is harder childcare or a professional job. My years as a SAHM were much more stressful than my current position as a WOHM with #3 in daycare. Give me an hour with 30 college students over an hour with 3 small children any day of the week.
Posted by: Amy | June 26, 2008 at 12:19 AM
My husband has been a SAHD for the last year and a half, and is now back at work just as I'm starting my summer vacation from teaching. So we have a pretty good understanding of each other's experience.
We each seem to be able do quite a bit of the household chores while watching the kid, but it is difficult, and our focus is different.
My husband is more consistent--he kept up on the laundry and dishes and always had dinner on the table when I came home, every single day. That's more than I used to do when I was a childless student, lol.
My focus is more on organization. I've tried to keep up to his standards (at least with dinner) and do a bit more straightening/decluttering. I started up my FlyLady emails again once my school year ended. I think it's fair for the person with higher cleanliness standards to do more work to achieve that.
Together my husband and I have a similar vision of a fairly tidy, functional house. We keep things fair by dividing work by time. During the day we both do whatever we can at our respective jobs. In the evening, one of us plays with the kid while the other does housework (dinner, clean-up, etc). After my daughter is in bed, we both relax.
Posted by: gertie | June 26, 2008 at 01:36 AM
Is it just me who thinks that the actual work and the actual chores are just irrelevant? All the active work time in maintaining our household is probably less than 5 hours a week (so our standards are pretty lax). Split by two able-bodied adults that is nothing. The real issue is the responsibility. The planning, managing, juggling and decision-making. THAT is what is wearing me down. Waltzing around with the vacuum for half an hour is ba humbug in comparison.
Posted by: Thy | June 26, 2008 at 08:21 AM
@Samantha, my suggestions: a) do things that work for you - get the cleaner, do individual therapy on your side. b) Name the game, gently - that is, when he's feeling emasculated or resistant to changing his defined role's parameters, just say, 'I hear that you're unhappy that the life we have cannot be what you learned to expect as a child.' and 'It seems uncomfortable to constantly live in a world that is so foreign to your expectations.' and 'It sounds like you really wanted to grow up to be the hero for your family, and you don't like not knowing how to do that in a different way.' All the non-violent communication stuff (there's a website, and books, if you want to look into that...) - not only does he need to hear that this really IS hard (changing, needing, not getting), but it is IMHO important for you to say it for yourself, too. It makes it so much easier to let go of stuff in the process when we take the position of being open to their pain. Harder to resent him when you can state clearly how deep the wound is for him, name the boundaries and identify the jagged edges... It also makes it harder for him to resist change, because he then has a safe place in which to explore the wound himself. Yes, individual therapy would be ideal. But to get to the point where he can feel safe going into it, he may need space around the pain - you *may* be able to provide that. Not a free ticket to dodge the painful place, but a safe place to feel the pain. Granted, I'm not a therapist, but it seems a place to start.
@Ashley (and Nic, too), it IS useful to hear that there are people who are a superior fit for child care who are enjoying it and who find it less demanding than their spouse's work. The full range does exist. JUST saying that it is hard is as false as JUST saying that it is easy. For many it is hard, for some it is REALLY hard, for some it is easy. Most of the people who landed here are in the middle ranges - hard easy hard easy hard easy hard easy, sometimes on a 5 minute cycle. Just bear that in mind on the tone... it's easy to make your words sound superior and arrogant, and much harder to stand in a point of compassion and understanding, especially if you have never experienced it for yourself.
Posted by: hedra | June 26, 2008 at 09:01 AM
I came back to say a bit more. Random thoughts really.
The number one thing to me, beyond basic sanitation, is that I want to raise my son in a home where chores are a fact of life but not punitive or gut-wrenching. I would rather that he never clean the toilet than that he clean it crying.
I have vivid memories of my mother letting all the 'crazy' out during chores. I remember getting chemical pneumonia at 7 when I dumped bleach and ammonia in the bath together. I remember bringing my first serious crush home to find all my clothes, including stained underwear, on the front lawn because my mom had a fit that day.
Looking back I think a lot of this was because my mother's power was exclusively domestic. She used chores as a way to get back at my father, control us, and as the source of her frustration. I hate to say it but one of the deep satisfactions I have as an adult is that her home is cluttered, since growing up the party line was that it would be perfect were it not for us terrible children.
I have spent a lot of time learning about space and cleanliness and myself. The most important thing I think was that my home is not me. But sometimes chaos in the house does reflect (or cause) internal chaos. So learning to care for my environment not out of fear of failure, or anger, or disgust, has been an important journey for me. Letting go of resentment (although not 100%) has been really important too.
Also important has been to make sure our home reflects our true lifestyle. We packed away our knickknacks for now and keep art on the walls instead. We don't bring things into our home that we don't love. We try to have storage for the spaces the way we really use them (we may be the only people to have gift wrap in our kitchen cupboards) rather than some idealized version. And maybe most importantly we bought an unpretentious 1960s bungalow built for raising kids, not for entertaining corporate clients.
One thing I've learned (and this speaks to Ashley) is that every person, and day, is different. I remember feeling like I'd arrived when I could wash the floor with my son in a sling. But then there was the period that followed it when a) he was climbing on everything and had defeated our child safety locks and seemed determined to both kill himself and coat the floor in everything, b) was having a sleep regression so we didn’t dare make noise if he was sleeping, c) was terrified of the vacuum cleaner and d) was suffering serious separation anxiety. That was not a banner 6 weeks for the state of our rugs. ☺
I don't find my work status changes the work that much. When I was home I had more time to clean up, but we were also making a lot more mess – AND it was more important to me because that was my 24/7 environment. Now we make fewer messes but our weekends and evenings feel more precious.
Posted by: Shandra | June 26, 2008 at 09:56 AM
Oh and since I find it fascinating to read others', here's our divisions:
DH – does all morning stuff with our son – breakfast, clothes, off to school. I generally do organize the stuff that needs to go, but if I don't, he is pretty capable of stepping in to figure it out.
- he also does car maintenance on his car, gutters, and big landscaping stuff
Me – I do daycare pickup, dinner, and bedtime most nights (although DH does some playing after dinner too)
- I do all meal planning, shopping, and prep for anything not breakfast
- I do all the gift-buying, card-writing, clothes shopping with a few exceptions for DH, and all that kind of stuff
- I do the laundry, cleaning, and financial planning/bill paying, although of late DH does jump in on the weekends to do some of the cleaning which is new! And lovely! So he does maybe 20% of cleaning currently
- I do the lawn mowing most of the time (3/4 times)
- We both take out the garbage and take care of the cats, although I probably do the litter boxes ¾ time
Weekends we have family time which is "childcare" although DH works a lot of weekends so I have the responsibility for those times.
Posted by: Shandra | June 26, 2008 at 10:02 AM
Our level of stress (at least mine) about cleaning has gone down exponentially since hiring a cleaning person. She comes for one hour per week and does the floors downstairs, plus upstairs vacuuming/bathroom/other bathroom on a three week rotating basis. This is not super-deep cleaning but it does let us walk around without stuff sticking to our feet. My husband really resisted this, since his mother took care of their enormous, immaculate house all by herself, but since I work 30 hours a week, plus do all the childcare outside those 30 hours, I said that was not a realistic expectation for me, and furthermore it wasn't what the two of us wanted to do on our weekends. He works 80-90 hours per week, and is often gone Monday through Friday, which is a whole different problem. Suffice it to say, if he's going to spend any time at all with his kid or his wife, it's on the weekends, so doing chores on the weekends is a terrible idea.
Things are better now. I'm still the mastermind pulling all the strings behind the scenes and yes, I'm a bit resentful of that. I feel like he's responsible for himself and I'm responsible for all of us. I don't know very many families in which the wife ISN'T the mastermind. I'd be interested to hear some examples. I don't think it will ever change in our house because my husband is just physically not here (he's literally in a different time zone most of the time) enough to know what's going on.
I'm starting full-time work in January with an hour commute. I'm trying not to let it stress me out too much wondering how the heck it's going to work without emotionally damaging Toddler, but oh, it does. I just re-read my post and it sure doesn't sound like I'm less stressed out, does it? But things ARE better now that I'm not worrying about vacuuming up dog hair and scrubbing toilets.
Posted by: CG | June 26, 2008 at 10:24 AM
I [heart] Cloud. She said it so perfectly: "Loving your children and being really good at child care aren't the same thing." Lately, I find I'm thinking a lot about how so many ideas can really stand to be stripped of the idea that they are *value statements*. I.e., my way is not good or bad or better or worse than your way, it is merely different. Period. So once you are able to distance yourself a bit, there is an idea that has been stripped of judgement and has been removed from a hierarchy. I am noticing hierarchies everywhere and oftentimes a hierarchy is good, and useful, and helps gets things done, but also many times I think we unconsciously are placing things/ideas on a stratum unecessarily and maybe even harmfully. I see this play out in the whole WOHM/WAHM dynamic, the nursing/formula/supplementing thing and on and on. And also, now, here--with the childcare is easy! No, it's not! Well, what's wrong with you that it's not? Well, what's wrong with you that it is??? I'm not saying people here are attacking each other (they're not, at all)--but I just love that Cloud so effortlessly and easily sliced through the value statements to say: being good at childcare is not hooked to our love for our children. Boom, done. Value statement removed. Thank you, Cloud.
I have a lot to say on other aspects of this whole conversation--primarily the "Oz" aspect but I am thinking I need, instead, to sit my husband down in front of the computer tonight and say: read this. Read what these people say.
To Samantha--my thoughts are with you! You're having a rough go of it!
Posted by: rudyinparis | June 26, 2008 at 10:25 AM
@Samantha....I just went back to re-read your comment. Does he feel you are emasculating him because of the work/$$ difference? That seems rather passive aggressive of him to refuse to help with childcare and housework because you earn more money and have a better job. While I agree that divorce might not be justified simply because your husband does not help out around the house and with the kids as much as you would like (if that were the case, many of us would be doing it alone), please don't feel guilty for considering that perhaps this person is not someone you can have a partnership with long-term. I think it is sad that he blames you for your success/his lack of success and that he thinks the best way to "punish" you for that is to isolate you with all of the work. I might be reading this wrong, and perhaps others would disagree with me, but this seems beyond just split of housechores and childcare issues. And I suspect your desire to leave him has less to do with feeling like a single parent with all the chores and more to do with being deeply hurt that he chooses to resent you and leave you hanging in this way.
Posted by: Julie | June 26, 2008 at 10:47 AM
@Julie, I agree it is beyond the 'chores/work' issue - it is a deep personal issue. And yeah, it might not be fixable, or livable. Or what is good for the kids to grow up with as a model themselves. Even with a true and valid reason for the wounded thrashing around, sometimes we have to step far enough away to just not get injured by it - doesn't make it or less valid underneath, but... well, my mom suggested that love is not the same as compatible or livable. One can love deeply but be unable to live with that person because of the state of their wounds and how they respond to them. Safe still comes first.
@Cloud, I agree that the removal of value statement was brilliant. I love my kids, I am not at my best with children (any, mine or others). Doesn't play to my strengths, and I've had to build a lot of skills on not much talent in that regard. (though I'll say that my best friend said that she was great with kids - she was a teacher - until she had kids of her own! So sometimes it isn't just 'skills with kids' but 'skills with THESE kids, complete with the complex meaning and emotional burdens on both sides'...)
@Shandra - I forgot to mention the whole 'breakfast/morning' vs 'evening' divide, myself! Ep does breakfast, in general, I do dinner in general. He also packs the lunches.
Oh, and CG - Ep (DH) does most of the planning, coordinating, and tracking of the calendar. He sets up, prints out, and updates the home calendar (custom so we can spot school events readily). I add in my things, but he sends ME the daily reminders of what is coming up, events we've RSVP'd to, things we need to plan for, etc. I schedule the doctor and dentist, and make the RSVP calls to invitations, but often enough forget to put them on the calendar... so, yeah, he's Oz. Not that he likes being Oz - he dislikes it as much as anyone here does. Doesn't want to feel like the grownup, doesn't want to be telling me my schedule. But... that's what works. Other way around, and we'd be missing appointments and birthday parties right and left.
Posted by: hedra | June 26, 2008 at 11:41 AM
@hedra, you've hit the nail on the head: I feel like the grownup and it bugs me. And maybe truly being a grownup means that you get over that, but I don't know yet!
Posted by: CG | June 26, 2008 at 11:46 AM
I am feeling sensitive about this right now because I am 15 weeks pregnant and still battling some nausea. (It's better, though.) Each time I've been pregnant, my husband and I have had a big end-of-the-first-trimester fight about what a disaster our house is. He's okay for the first five or six weeks that I'm reduced to wanly surveying the mess, but then he's done.
We have three issues here that are making me nuts. One is an old problem that we've had for our whole marriage: he values tidy over clean, and I am the reverse. With the time and energy that I have, I'd rather vacuum and mop than pick up clutter. Clutter doesn't get to me the way that dirt does, but it really gets to him.
I guess the other two issues are really different sides of the same coin, and that's expectations. His mom was at home when he was a kid; his dad was a traveling salesman who was gone all week and did his own thing on the weekends. With that background, I guess it's natural for him to think that he's doing his share and more, and to feel that I'm being demanding if I suggest that he's not (issue #2). He also assumes (issue #3) that I'll take care of things I hate to do, like arranging for home maintenance. He has a long list of reasons why I ought to do it, but I think it really boils down to his preconception that it's my job.
I suppose the right thing to do is to sit down and talk about it, but I'm not very optimistic about that. I'm not only saying, "Could you please call a few masonry companies to get estimates for repairing the brickwork?" What I'm really saying is, "Could you please take another look at your assumptions about my role, especially since I'm not a full-time mother like your mom was?" And re-evaluating assumptions, which has to happen for him to call masonry companies without thinking he's doing me a favor, is harder than flipping through the Yellow Pages.
Posted by: CJ | June 26, 2008 at 11:51 AM
Have to jump back in here...
@Samantha--Re-reading my comment about not leaving because you already feel like a single parent, I hope it didn't sound too harsh. My reasons for leaving ran into something that Julie and Hedra said. Yes, I was doing all the work while working full time myself which is a bummer... but I also felt like I was getting beat up by his expectations of how our life should be even though our life was far from that. I'm not sure I can explain it any better without going into great detail--which I'm happy to do if you need someone to bounce things off of on email.
Oh, and to add to the expectation thing... my husband (not ex) is found of saying "We didn't do that when I was growing up and I turned out okay" as his excuse for a 1960s lifestyle. It's not that he doesn't want to help (for example, he's developed a real passion for being the one who picks #3 up from daycare!) I think he just doesn't know how to get started a lot of the time. He likes being the smartest man in the room and when it comes to childcare he's often not... so giving him the chance to learn to do something without his feeling self-conscious about it has been key to helping him get more involved. For example, I take the kids to the university pool most days. I was sick the other evening and the kids asked him to take them. He said no because he said he wanted to "get the lay of the land" of the pool before he was responsible for 3 kids by himself up there. Now, I would never think such a thing... I'm a learn as I go kind of person. But it is clear that he needs more prep before heading into something new... especially with 3 kids in tow. Realizing this has made a huge difference in how I prep him for new childcare responsibilities.
@Cloud--I took #3 to daycare this morning even though I have #1 and #2 home with me. I'm working from home today and I just HAVE to get stuff done. By personality, I can only be an "in your face 100% mommy" in about 10 minute intervals. This was great for #2 who only wanted to be engaged for about that long as a baby, but #3 pulls at the computer and is visibly disturbed by my not giving him 100% for long periods of time. So, while I adore him with all my heart, and while I am a very good mommy, I took him to daycare today so he can get more of what he needs... stimulation in longer that quick bursts. It's taken me a loooong time to come to grips with the fact that I;m a better mommy when I'm not with them all day long. And while I do love the leisurely day with all 3 doing something really fun (beach, zoo, pool, etc), I do not want to go back to doing that 24/7.
As for splitting the chores, as I read through Shandra's list it dawned on me that there are chores my husband does that I don't even consider chores (though they certainly are) like the bills or watering the yard. I really think he and I need to climb into a nice hotel bed somewhere with a bottle of champagne and no kids and take some time to reconsider our expectations rather than reconsidering them on the fly when someone is already upset that something isn't being done.
And finally, on the actual cleaning front, I have NO recollection of ever seeing my mother clean. I'm sure she did as our house wasn't dirty (it was cluttered... but not dirty), but it means that I grew up without any real sense of how to clean. I've learned along the way, of course, but I wish I had a system versus my "Wow, how long has it been since I cleaned the tub?"
Sorry this is so long... I guess I need to start my own blog again to get all of this stuff off my chest...
Posted by: Amy | June 26, 2008 at 12:47 PM
@rudyinparis and Cloud, YES...and even more, there are things that you can be good at effortlessly and things that we can be good at, but that cost us a lot of effort. For me, foreign languages are in the first category, and childcare is waaay into the second. I'm sure plenty of people are the reverse. But the fact that childcare is effortful for me in no way means I'm not a good mom or that I don't love my kid. It does mean it's a natural choice for me to get help with it.
Posted by: Charisse | June 26, 2008 at 03:23 PM
Just to had to the datapoints:
Husband and I both work, both in scientific/academia setting. We both have jobs that will end if we don't produce a lot of research findings (me: get tenure as a professor, him: get a great scientific article to get a tenured-track scientist job)so in theory, we would both like to work 60 hours a week to be productive and we have one son that is almost three years old, and we would like to spend all of our time with him = conflict over our time. So it affects what we do as chores and when. There is no doubt that our arrangment is not typical, I have no friend of the same age that seems to have this really equal sharing of home duties (and maybe I would say he does 60%). He is perfect at thinking what goes in the diaper bag, what lunch we should pack to go biking, he never forgets to put sunscreen on our son, he cooks 90% of the time and we are the type of couple that alternate each night who cleans the kitchen and who cleans and put our son to bed (and we get a week each of taking care of bath time with our son), yes very geeky. I do the scheduling of appointments for our son and we go together to the appointments. I would say I do 60-70% of laundry and folding but I usually do it on the week-ends when we are all together and I fold sitting in the living room with them. we also do grocery shopping as a family. Our son already mimick his father and does a lot of "cooking" next to him when my husband prepares supper and we all clean the living room togetehr when nightime arrives, to do some modelling. We have a cleaning lady coming every two weeks for 4 hours and we make a point of not cleaning before she comes. She knows that if we did not declutter, say, the living room, she is not expected to do it for us. So we all feel better and unstressed. My husband's mother was a nurse and worked a lot of night shifts so his father was very hands on for a seventies father, cooking, cleaning and raising them while his wife worked. I think that may have influenced my husband. My parents were both academics and none of them touched a thing in the house (they were never their and ften arrived late at night, compared to our approach of working at night when our son sleeps so we can spend time with him from 4pm to 8pm) as they had a nanny-cleaner-cook (life saver would be abetter name to call her) that practically raised me and my sister. So I may be doing not more than 50% of the chores because I never learned how to do it altough I am a woman while he did altough he is a man?
For the "I am the master of all organisation topic": I told him only once that organizing and getting appointments and calling people to get things fixed like electrician etc..(and finding the pediatrician, etc) was a chore in my opinion and he agreed that I was better at it (he is super shy) so I think he feels that cooking more is making up for it (and I more than agree) and the topic never came up again.
In summary, our upringing were opposite of the average in that as a girl I was told to become financially independent and nobody taught me about taking care of a house (mostly just plain lack of modelling) and neitehr my father or mother parented in a traditional way and as a boy he saw a lot of hands on parenting from his father while his mom was the bread winner (although she is also a home bread and cookie maker, fantatsic cook and very proud cleaner and gardener). Maybe our arrangment has something to do with it, which is in accordance with what many other posters are saying on this topic.
Posted by: maman_du_petrus | June 26, 2008 at 04:06 PM
More data points, albeit from a sometimes dysfunctional relationship. We've thrown the d-word around many times, but are working it out.
Hubby handles: daycare drop-off & pickup (he has the car and daycare is at his work site); walks & feeds dog sometimes; changes diapers often; balances checkbook; cooks most meals; makes our travel plans; sometimes does laundry but rarely folds/puts away, and once in a blue moon he fixes something around the house, or takes night duty for baby - but only after i've had a nervous breakdown and issued some awful ultimatum about leaving him. Real healthy of me, right?
I handle everything else.
I usually have to help hubby finish any/all of the above. Or I get to answer all of these passive-aggressive questions like "Hey, WHERE IS THE...." which drive me batty. Get off your behind and find it for yourself where you last left it, fool!!!!
But I have resigned myself that a true 50-50 split of household duties is a pipe dream in my current relationship, and somehow I just need to find a way to get over the bitterness and resentment about it because despite these relatively minor issues, my hubby is a good man & my neuroses are just way out of control when it comes to household maintenance.
Posted by: hush | June 26, 2008 at 07:02 PM
Thy and CG and others who talk about the responsibility and the masterminding of it all....I had such a lightbulb go off when I read that. My husband and I are both full time work out of the home parents, but only one of us (guess who) makes the mental note to pick up milk when running low, or to get some clothes the next size up when the pants are turning into capris....those kinds of tasks that are not particularly unpleasant or time consuming, but that have to be thought of. And I do resent being the only one to think about them. And I refuse to ask him to do it over and over, because I just hate that dynamic and plus it still means I'm the one thinking about it, but I also don't want to be milk-less 5 minutes before running out the door, so I end up doing it. And then over time it becomes my job. Sigh.
I thought that we'd done a pretty good job of relaxing our standards to get through this, but maybe I have to relax them a bit more. Maybe if I just forget about the milk and let him struggle through it, things will evolve a little. But boy is it hard to let go. Plus I don't like black coffee.....
Posted by: Lisa M | June 27, 2008 at 06:02 PM
I, too, like what you said, Cloud. And, yes, I *did* just so happen to choose childcare as a paying profession. I also happen to have a BS in it, too. I get asked a lot if my daughter is my first child b/c people say I do not act like Im a first-time mom. So, yeah, my take on childcare juuuust might be a bit different than yours. Childcare is my favourite job. This is prolly why I dont find it to be difficult. Mechanics and nurses prolly dont find their jobs to be terribly difficult, either, but I do. Them being good at it doesnt make me feel bad or want them to feel bad for doing well, either. The difference between what they do and what I do is that you dont need to take classes to be a parent & that is a huge part of what makes people defensive, I think.
Posted by: Foster | June 28, 2008 at 03:08 AM