Yesterday you guys were asking about dividing up and scheduling chores around the house, so I figured we should do an entire post on that. I'm not making this a Q&A because I have little practical knowledge of how to divide up chores in a way that makes everyone feel OK about it. I know what I think should happen, but I'll leave the actual advice to those of you who have functional relationships.
What I think should happen is that each partner does their work (whether it's paid work or childcare work) and then the partners split the other chores 50/50. That doesn't mean that you keep a log and alternate who washes dishes, but that the total tasks that need to be done end up being done so each of you has an approximately equal share. So if one of you is fine with laundry and the other hates it, the person who doesn't hate it does it, and the other one does something else.
To me, the key assumption here is that child care is actual work. Which, duh, of course it is. (In Manhattan, it's work that gets paid at $15 an hour for one child.) And, yes, it's certainly possible to get a load of dishes or laundry done during the day (if you're home all day and have your own washer and dryer), just as it's possible to be a novelist or academic or other person who works full-time at home and do some chores during the day. The same way it's possible to be someone who works in an office all day and pay some bills online, schedule doctor appointments, and do some online shopping. But you can't do chores to the detriment of your primary job, whether it's writing technical manuals or trading bonds or caring for a three-year-old. That leaves most of the chores for "non-work" hours.
So, those of you who have or are working this out, what have you done? How often do you readjust and reassign? (I'm assuming that all this stuff changes as the size of the family changes, kids get older, job situations change, etc.) Those of you for whom it's not working, have you identified ways you could make it work better for everyone? (I can't really recommend divorce as a solution, although it has, technically, eliminated the problem.) Is the problem something you can change easily, like by hiring a bi-weekly cleaner? Or is this part of a bigger issue?
A friend of mine just told me she was pregnant with her first, and that she was thinking about hiring a cleaning person after the baby was born. I told her that kids are the best excuse ever to outsource chores. We have a person who mows the lawn, a twice-a-month cleaning service, and we get our groceries delivered through Peapod. Obviously those things cost a little bit more, but it's cheaper than a divorce.
Posted by: Shannon | June 25, 2008 at 10:16 AM
Thanks for adding this discussion. We had a long talk about this issue over coffee this morning after dropping monkey off at daycare. We're actually pretty good about splitting chores and if one is working, the other is also working. Where I have problems is that I'm almighty Oz behind the curtain. My brain needs a rest and sometimes I get tired of being the one who has to organize/plan it all. We talked about having a Monday night family meeting to organize our week and set house project priorities. Right now in my head, "Is it time for a toilet lock?" seems to have the same priority as "Hmmm...how are we going to save enough for a second adoption?" There is so much clutter in there. And being exhausted doesn't help either of us think clearly. We also need to set those priorities together. And communicate. A lot. We've decided to meet for lunch during the week just to have our time and eat dinner just the two of us once a week (right now we try really, really hard to eat as a family). I really don't want the three (or future four) of us to be working so hard that we aren't enjoying our family. I want to still feel like a family and a couple and a me. And having clean laundry would be nice too. Am I dreaming?
Posted by: JinMomma | June 25, 2008 at 10:32 AM
I have to say that overall, our working/taking care of child/chores are really divided up the way Moxie describes. I always say that we share the work equally because we are partners in this. But like Moxie said, it doesn't mean that each chore is shared equally. I hate taking out the trash and I won't touch the lawn mower, so my hubby does those. I do more than half of the dishes and I wash and put away all of the baby's clothes (he does his own laundry). He does the bills, I make all doctor appointments. Etc. It is possible, but both partners have to be on board with the division of labor.
One of the best things I did for my marriage was hiring a cleaning person to come every other week. I highly recommend it. It's been so worth the money. I will give up internet before I give up the cleaning person.
However...
My big issue isn't usually the chores. It's the build up disorganization. Everyone said to just let things go when we had the baby. We moved when I was pregnant, and I was too tired to get everything in the right place and there was only so much my hubby could do. So we let things go. And let them go. And now, I'm freaking out! In fact, last night I had a big flip out about the disorganization and clutter that is my house. Lately, I feel like I'm flipping out pretty often over this same issue (usually about different rooms). We just need to get everything organized, but I need his help, and the weekends aren't long enough and who will watch the into-everything toddler if we both need to be moving around boxes and furniture?
At least this inspired a big clean up in the kitchen. And I talked it all through with the hubby so we can try to figure out how to remedy this. We've got some ideas, but if anyone else has suggestions, I'll take them!
(We can't afford a professional organizer to help. We probably don't need one anyway. It's not like we are ready for Clean Sweep or anything. Just clutter. Oh, and Fly Lady does not work for me.)
Posted by: caramama | June 25, 2008 at 10:48 AM
And yesterday rudyinparis told me I was so organized! HA! If she only knew that I'm feeling overwhelming disorganized!
Posted by: caramama | June 25, 2008 at 10:50 AM
If you have the resources I highly recommend hiring a cleaning person. I actually had one before my first baby and I still think of her fondly as the saviour of my marriage. Some things are easy: my husband enjoys cooking, I don't - so he cooks and I do the washing up. But, for me, it just was not worth arguing about who cleaned the toilet last, what is the correct frequency for dusting the living room, etc. I actually consider the cleaning lady so important to my marital happiness I would absolutely cut back in other areas to be able to afford her (ie. weekly dinner date with spouse is less important to me!). Because, after 10 years, I have finally realised that I am married to someone who just. doesn't. get. it. We can make lists out the wazoo about who is responsible for what and when things are going to get done - but a week or two goes by and....nothing has changed. And I HATE feeling like a nag. So.... I HEART the cleaner.
I read a good quotation once that said "I would hire a cleaner for my home, even if it meant I had to go out and work as a cleaner to pay for it". And I agree. Because it's not the work that's so hard, it's the power imbalance in the relationship, the resentment that builds up over time.
Posted by: Jac | June 25, 2008 at 10:53 AM
I realize that this may get me into a lot of hot water, but having been on both sides of the fence, I respectfully disagree that chores can't be done while being a SAHM FT parent to a 3 year old. Or multiple kids. I am not arguing that ALL of the chores should be done by the non-work outside the home parent, but really if you are home all day, you can make dinner and tidy up and at least do light cleaning. My mother did it, I did it and my kids were none the worse for wear. And I am currently working FT outside the home so I've seen both sides. It would not have made any sense for me not to make dinner for everyone when my husband walks in the door earliest at 6:30pm. And children should be taught both directly and by example that being part of a family means doing chores and taking on this stuff. As I said, I know lots of people, Moxie included, differ with me on this but it just seems to make sense. And I am not arguing against housecleaning help for thos who stay home, but an even 50/50 split does not make practical sense.
I think what it really boils down to is that in a healthy relationship you are not keeping score. Each member is putting in the most that they can and appreciating and trusting that the other person is as well. And if that means that the outside the home spouse doesn't do laundry, then maybe that just makes the most sense.
Posted by: MLB | June 25, 2008 at 11:06 AM
Ditto ditto on the cleaner--having one before baby helped obviate a lot of relationship arguments, and we upgraded to once weekly after Mouse came along...not because the mess is so much worse, but because the consequences of missing one visit due to illness or something became huge. 3 weeks is too long for my house!
Day to day, I like to cook and Mr. C doesn't, so I do dinner and he does breakfast (which is much less complex). I'm a clutter person and he's neat, so he restrains me on excessive crap lying around (but I like to *see* things I'm thinking about so it's always a minor tension). I hate hate hate folding laundry--I do the wash, but then it sits in the basket--so I'm thinking of asking Mr. C, who researches Japanese methods of t-shirt folding on the internet, to take that over entirely. He does the grocery shopping but I make the list--that one still feels a little unfair. I'd love to figure out a way to get him more involved in the mental tracking of everything (not just that but appointments and so forth). I just haven't figured that one out.
In general, I'm better at making sure the dishwasher gets started before we go to bed, and he's better at spring cleaning/reorganizing that you do every few months. We know this, so we try and remember it when the other isn't being all that helpful with the thing we're good at. I do feel frustrated a little that I took a part time job mainly to allow myself to write, but the time often gets eaten up by house/kid stuff (though this is vastly better since Mr. C stopped commuting 1 hour each way).
I don't know, we keep working it out--there are minor resentments, fights a couple times a year, and a general sense that everybody means well and we can keep making it better.
Posted by: Charisse | June 25, 2008 at 11:06 AM
(Oh, just to clarify, I meant I do *my* wash and most of Mouse's, not the whole family's.)
Posted by: Charisse | June 25, 2008 at 11:07 AM
My kids are 14 months and 3 1/4. I was at home for a year with each. I came back to work a couple months ago.
The lucky thing for us is that both my husband and I seem to be on the same page in terms of how clean and organized we need to be to be happy on a day-by-day basis. We are pretty on top of things and I take pride in that because it hasn’t always been my natural inclination but a number of years ago I consciouly changed and have been the happier for it. I try to keep a few things in mind when I consider our household chore situation.
1. I don’t have to want to do it, I just have to do it (I might have read that here).
2. No scorekeeping. Constant bickering about who did what last just makes life miserable.
3. There really is no “later”. Something will always come up, so if we don’t get a chore or errand done it’ll just pile up till forever and mess up our chi.
4. Streamline your life and your stuff so you can focus on what's important.
It’s good to get this sorted out pre-kids. I have several friends who gave their partners a pass on household responsibility pre-kids, when the demands weren't too great, and thought that they’d pitch in when babies came along. Um, no. If you couldn’t stay on top of the laundry when it was just the two of you, you haven’t got too much hope of staying on top of it when you are 4.
Also this might be controversial but I don’t personally buy into the philosophy that childcare should take up 100% of my time 100% of the time when I’m home with them. Of course there are always Those Days but on balance there should be enough time to do some picking up, wash a couple dishes or put them in the dishwasher, throw in some laundry (like you said, if you have the facilities) or put some away, and cook a meal.
My beef isn’t about chores per se, but rather about things like meal planning, making appointments, birthday party gift buying, financial planning, setting up social stuff with friends, baby clothes sorting etc. I do a disproportionate amount of this kind of household work and it’s wearing to be the one to keep the household’s mental calendar.
Posted by: Elle | June 25, 2008 at 11:20 AM
I'm feeling pretty good about where we are with this right now (with le Petit almost a year old!), so I'll share what works for us.
(Mostly I credit my husband for being a sensitive and caring person who has learned well over the last ten years what keeps me sane.)
1) Divide the tasks, as Moxie says, according to who hates what the least.
2) Every once in a while take over one of the tasks your partner does, just to truly appreciate the effort it takes.
(I thought watering the plants and taking the recycling to the basement were five-minute tasks. I was so wrong. And after my husband was gone for a couple of weekdays I started to understand just how difficult it is to get the Baby Road Show out the door in the morning.)
3) Talk about it. Frame sentences with "I feel like... when ... happens." And ask for what you need simply and directly. If you just can't face the dishes tonight even though it's your turn, say it.
It is so easy to fall into either feeling guilty or blaming your partner when things start getting chaotic, and it NEVER EVER HELPS (me, at least). I cannot count the number of times when just getting honest about what was frustrating both of us helped us work it out.
4) Prioritize and be realistic about how much you can actually do. Decide what absolutely needs to get done every week (for me, that's vacuuming and cleaning the kitchen and bathroom. For my husband it's laundry, grocery shopping, and bill-paying). And make time to do fun stuff, too.
5) Throw in one annoying task a week, like dusting or cleaning the fridge, so that they get done in rotation. Then give yourself a huge pat on the back for having done it. Give yourself extra kudos if it is something that isn't just transitory, like reorganizing the closet, that will stick and make life easier for a few months, at least.
6) Try and remember the big picture. Having a kid helped me let go of some of my perfectionism. I still freak out occasionally since I learned somewhere in my childhood that Good People Have Perfectly Clean Houses, but I'm getting over it.
Which brings me to...
7) Understand your partner's baggage on the subject. (I'm carrying a lot of it.)
8) Aim for 80%. So it slipped this week. Big deal!
(Which probably means I should be off to vacuum now to catch up...)
Posted by: Parisienne Mais Presque | June 25, 2008 at 11:24 AM
#1 for me is that we do our own laundry. We've got a tiny washer/dryer so we have to do tiny loads anyway, but washing another adult's clothing makes me crazy.
The organization of chores is, in itself, a chore. I usually go for the approach of "Hey, do you want me to do the dishes or keep E out from underfoot?" But it is all so much easier though when you've got the same basic understanding of what chores there are, how often they need to get done, and how much effort each one takes. My ex & I used to drive each other crazy because I would "clean" and he would "tidy"...so I would scrub floor, and get rid of all the dust and dirt, but still leave the room cluttered so that he felt I hadn't done anything at all. Or he would tidy everything into nice organized piles, leaving the room all pretty, but still really dirty. We drove each other nuts. I think everyone who is suggesting more communication regarding chores is on the right track.
Posted by: Today Wendy | June 25, 2008 at 11:24 AM
@caramama, I had to glance down at the signature on your comment because I thought it might be epeepunk for a moment!
I noted some of our methods on yesterdays, but I'll try to break them out more cleanly here:
1) Many methods, not just one. JUST scheduling like crazy doesn't work for us. We need that plus a dozen backup plans.
2) Divide roles but don't lock to them. Like, for us, I'm the 'stuff facing outwards' person, and he's the 'stuff facing inwards' person. That is, I make the calls, schedule the appointments, take care of the yard (excepting mowing and trash, one involving the machine that kicks off my asthma, and the other involving schedules I can't remember), and handle most service issues. It isn't that he can't do those, he doesn't enjoy them. Likewise, he is main housekeeper, because he's better at it than I am, and dislikes them less. But each can do the other's tasks in a pinch. This could be described as 'play to the strengths, but don't limit collateral development'.
3) Employ others - cleaning person, yard help, anything labor intensive needs either complete distraction of the kids (babysitter?) or someone doing it on the off hours. Paying someone to do it even randomly is better than not. For instance, we have the cleaning service every-other week. We also have a gift from my mom in the form of her paying my BIL to handle yard work as assigned (maximum billing amount is set by her, but I assign the tasks). Slowly gaining some traction against the invasive vines, as a result of employing his strong back. Reduces stress on me, reduces resentment all around.
4) understand 'big long job' vs 'many small jobs' as equivalent. I'm better at the dig in and panic cleaning type work, he's better at the daily tidying stuff. I'll admit it took us more than 15 years to figure out that we could split things that way, with him taking the small bits on week days and me taking the big chunks on weekends, and the other party having more of an eased experience on the alternating times. (compare this with 'everyone works at the same time' - which is also a good approach, but may not work as well if your cadences are different)
5) Employ prioritizing software or other systems. Lifehacker, for instance. I am more of a 'bits of paper' person (have to physically feel an item to know it is there), but sticky notes also work.
6) Daily touchdowns or updates. In my in-box nearly every day is "Today's Daily Reminder and Email Newsletter" which is a form ep has made that he completes with a variety of information- drop-off stories, daily goals and activities, what's up at work (deadlines, pressure, stress), scheduled events for later in the week, etc. We've worked out what works for us, and I still fuzz out some of it anyway, but it is better than trying to remember it all without having it written down. Makes for a good prompt, as well, things to remember to talk about.
7) regular venting to one another. If we're letting disgruntlement build up without mentioning it, we get off course with each other. Just like with the kids, allowing the disconnect and then reconnecting is better than trying to either scramble to prevent the disconnect AT ALL COSTS, or letting the disconnect drag on without reconnecting. Stating our needs, what's not happening, how we feel, all crucial to the process.
8) Cycles of different lengths that alternate. We alternate periods of time working the bills/taxes - a couple years of one, followed by a couple years of the other. It evens out the angst and distress issues, and makes sure we both keep up some degree of skill. We alternate whose goals/dreams take priority, so that someone can accomplish something important. Finishing school, getting the licensing, writing a book. Making sure the 'non-working/positive time' is also balancing back and forth on a cycle is important, too. Recognizing the cycles are long but not endless helps keep perspective. It's like recognizing that the kids will be dependent physically for X years, or the phase ends, or there's a good period coming, or they'll transition eventually from Daddy centered to Mommy centered... all of that helps make things seem less interminible. Knowing that an end point is coming, and WHEN, that eases up a lot of stress.
So, that's not all about the chores/housework, but it all ties in. (oh, and JAC, I detest cleaning at home, but used to work as a cleaner in college! There's a lot of emotional processing in cleaning one's own/shared space, and not so much in cleaning someone else's!)
Posted by: hedra | June 25, 2008 at 11:27 AM
Wow, while I was working that, look how many other people said the same things. :)
Posted by: hedra | June 25, 2008 at 11:31 AM
Hi... this is an area where we are STILL trying to work on the balance. In terms of childcare - I think we have a very healthy balance. My usband is definitely more than pulling his weight in that arena.
It is definitely the running of the household where we have issues. He'll help but I ave to create lists and remind him to do things. That is the part that can get rather tiring (a previous poster wrote about this much better than I can) - it is the constant knowing that you must think of everything or something will get dropped. My husband will help with the laundry (folding) but amazing never notices that the laundry basket is over full. When the arguement comes up, he just says "I would have done that"... but when?
We do need a cleaning person - I think that would dramatically help. Still not there for some reason - not sure if it is the ordeal of finding someone, scheduling, etc. that has held us up. I think I keep waiting for my husband to take this one on (for my birthday in November, I said all I wanted was for him to find someone to come clean our house one time... never happened, although that was my present). That sounds so passive- agressive, doesn't it? I guess it is; I am...
I think that tacked on with the idea that I am the one that needs to read all the parenting books and get us on a plan of action for discipline, knowing safety issues, etc. and then parlay those to my husband - I am just warn out trying to think and remember and catalog it all in my head. We are getting closer and closer to this being an issue that breaks us.
Posted by: Maureen | June 25, 2008 at 11:35 AM
Without wanting to sound like a whiner, I'd like to throw something else into the mix: what about single parents who have to do it all and don't have the luxury of worrying about how to divvy things up?
Here's what I do to keep my sanity:
1. Housekeeper! I'm with everyone else on the importance of that, if it can at all be afforded.
2. Creative outsourcing. Finding friends who are willing to be my lost partner and who can help with yardwork, laundry, cooking, etc. This is very difficult, especially for someone like me who hates to ask for help, but it's important.
3. Babysitters or friends who can watch the kids so that I can sometimes do errands w/o kiddos.
Figuring out how to divvy up household responsibilities is a very important discussion--I remember talking about it a lot with my husband and never coming up with a great solution, especially for the mental work of keeping on top of the social calendar, meal planning, etc. That said, I'd love for any of the other single-parent readers to post about how they stay on top of the household stuff in the absence of a partner.
Posted by: snickollet | June 25, 2008 at 11:36 AM
I'm a SAHM who does most of the chores.
I actually don't mind this. My son naps for roughly 2 hours a day, and that's more than enough time to clean, do laundry, whatever. I don't really see it as an issue of who is "working more." On a practical level, I spend a lot more of my time in the house. I'm on duty when most of the messes happen. So more of the burden falls on me, and I think that's okay. I also like the thought of modeling chores for my son, because I want him to grow into a man who understands that taking care of the house is real work.
But I have complaints nonetheless! DH is a peach in that he will do whatever I ask. If he comes home from work tonight and I say, "clean the toilet," he'll do it. No question. The problem is, he rarely takes initiative. And delegating is so annoying that I would rather just clean the damn toilet myself. I don't want to be my husband's boss or his mother. So I don't need a way to divide up the work better, really. Just a way to get my husband to think, "hey, the kitchen floor is a mess. Obviously my wife was too busy to get to it today - let me pick up a mop." But he just...doesn't. I don't know if you can change the way a person thinks!
When I go back to work in the fall, we'll be hiring a bi-weekly cleaning lady, even if between that and daycare I'm bringing home peanuts. Because I don't want to spend my precious weekends telling my husband what to do.
Posted by: stacy | June 25, 2008 at 11:37 AM
No kids yet, but this is still an issue for us... We divide, mostly based on who hates what least and who cares more about X being done...
So, I do the mowing 'cause he gets migraines, he does the finances because he cares more. He does the vacuuming and dusting because he cares more. I do the cooking/meal planning/dishes because I enjoy them (mostly). He does the laundry (because we were unbalanced) and folds his own clothes (because he doesn't care how they are folded). I fold my clothes (because I care how they are folded)... I feed the cat and dog... Mostly it seems fair, but it is the most common discussion topic... Usually I feel like I'm doing EVERYTHING and the pressure builds up until we have a blowout and then we rebalance... Not the best plan, but at least knowing that's the pattern, I can try to release the pressure before the blowout.
The bigger problem for me is that I'm one of those 'If someone's working, we all work' types, but he isn't... So, if he's doing something, I feel guilty about not, start working, then his ADD kicks in and he gets distracted by something shiny (like his email) and I'm doing the work alone...
Posted by: Lindz | June 25, 2008 at 11:38 AM
@JinMomma- I , too, get tired of being the one who keeps it all organized. But realistically, it is just not my Hubby's strength, so it has always been me, even before Pumpkin. The key to keeping me from going nutso about this is that Hubby recognizes that the organizing of play dates, doctor's appointments, family visits, etc is a chore, not fun, and gives me credit for it. So we really just consider it another one of the chores in the big chore mix.
We divide things much like Moxie says, and that works well for us. Like I mentioned yesterday, what hasn't been working so well was that most of Hubby's big chores MUST be done during daylight hours (they are things like yardwork), while many of my chores CAN be done after Pumpkin goes down (they are things like researching estate planning). So Hubby was getting his chores done during the day, mine were waiting until night and not getting done. We had a big talk about that recently and are trying to rebalance.
Some practical things we do:
1. We keep a to do list for big, non-recurring chores (i.e., not "clean bathrooms") in Google Docs. Either of us can add to it, and this way we always know what we "should" be working on, so don't waste a lot of time re-discussing that.
2. We try to set aside some weekend time for fun every weekend, and we also try to take Pumpkin for a walk once/weekend. The fun time makes us feel like a family and not just a couple of people running a household together, and the walk is a great time for discussing things like scheduling of chores. Pumpkin loves to sit in her stroller and point out birds, so she is happy and we get time to really talk.
One tweak we're trying now is to say that we'll do the cleaning chores on two consecutive nights during the week (one person cleans while the other does Pumpkin's nighttime routine), rather than saving it all for the weekend. We're just starting that this week, so we'll see how it goes. We could afford a cleaning service, but are both kind of ambivalent about getting one (for years I thought it was just Hubby who was ambivalent, until he said I could hire a cleaning service and I just couldn't do it) and also have other things we'd rather spend the money on. So we're still doing our own cleaning. This is only possible because Hubby is more of a neat freak than I am.
Posted by: Cloud | June 25, 2008 at 11:38 AM
I grew up in a single family household so I was used to seeing my mom do everything without complaint. I had my chores, so seeing her never complain about the mountain of dishes was an example to me to not complain -- we just chipped in together. I think moms and dads need to do that too. No keeping score and no griping or you;re going to get it with your kids.
As a consequence, I do whatever needs doing because I am used to seeing the woman running the show and having been independent pre-marriage was used to doing it by myself, too. But I know my limits and I ask my hubby to do some stuff I just can't deal with for whatever reason. I won't play the martyr (just like my mom didn't -- if you need help ask for it!)
That being said, my hubby contributes a lot around the house. He gets home before me so he does the dishes and cleans the kitchen then when I get home he runs out and gets the groceries while I cook dinner.
He picks up the living room while I put the 3 and the 1 year-old to bed. He is with the two of them all afternoon so I don't expect him to do much but relax a bit after I get home. Then he cooks dinner for us and we have the evening to ourselves.
We never planned it that way, it was just the way it worked out. I do the laundry and we have a woman come in once a week to totally clean the apartment -- if we didn't have her we probably would be at each other's throats suffocating under the dust, crud and grime. Also it helps to have the same clutter/mess/dirt threshhold. Both of us have a pretty high level of tolerance. We can put up with a lot of nastiness before we start getting grossed out. We both know that is because we both grew up with very busy moms who thought spending time with their kids was more importnat that scrubbing a shitty toilet. Amen to that sisters!
Posted by: Geeks in Rome | June 25, 2008 at 11:40 AM
I look forward to reading the comments as this is becoming a growing problem in my household.
My husband works outside of the home. Other than his job, his responsibilities are bath and bedtime for one of our our two children. He also takes the trashcan from the side of the house to the curb about once a month.
I handle everything else home and childcare related including the finances. I finally broke down and hired a house cleaner every other week when one Saturday my husband go mad at me for leaving the kids with him while I cleaned the kitchen. This has worked out beautifully.
Posted by: Kelly | June 25, 2008 at 11:46 AM
Couple of practical points:
We have just started working on a shared Gmail calendar, that both can add things to (including to-do lists as well as events). I am hoping this will help.
For couples where one person is doing a lot of the mental energy/organization work, try delegating one set of mental tasks, as an experiment. For a while, mr. flea was in charge of all doctor's appointments - scheduling, taking the kids, etc. - since he had a more flexible schedule. Sometimes I went along, but it was not my job to remember to make the next appointment. If you can segment out mental areas like this, it can be a start to achieving parity (or at least lessening the burden).
Posted by: flea | June 25, 2008 at 11:47 AM
Lest I make it sound like I have a perfect system or anything, I just wanted to mention what I think is the biggest challenge for us.
We have very different standards for certain tasks (like vacuuming, for example!) which means that either one of us ends up taking it over entirely or is unsatisfied with the other's work.
(I think the NY Times article linked to here recently about 50/50 parenting mentions this problem.)
You end up in a battle of "Well, I was perfectly willing to help, but you criticize me!" versus "You just don't make an effort," etc. etc. until it everyone is just hurt and unsatisfied, and things still aren't divided evenly.
My solution is mostly to just talk our expectations over, and to the extent we can, let the person who is the most perfectionist about something be in charge of it. Which means I vacuum and he does fridge inventory. It is important to explain what 'doing it your way' means concretely and why it is so important to you, and yet be willing to compromise.
This kind of communication eventually works most of the time, but I predict it will still give us something to grump at each other about when we're seventy.
Posted by: Parisienne Mais Presque | June 25, 2008 at 11:54 AM
I've got to add something... This whole "don't keep score" thing... I'm behind the sentiment in general, but there is a usefulness in paying attention to who does what.
I don't exactly "keep score," but I do pay attention, and I know my hubby does as well. This helps me realize how much he does do and helps me figure out when things are getting unequal on both sides.
For example, I absolutely track how often he takes out the garbage so that I don't feel resentment when I'm the one who has to clean out the fridge once again. Also, I've been putting the baby to bed 95% of the time for 15 months, and now that she's not falling asleep while nursing, it's time for him to take on that activity for a while. I know that means that I will have to feed the animals while he is putting her to bed, so we'll switch those roles.
I guess this goes back to Moxie asking how often you readjust and reassign. We do it when one of us needs some sort of break or if we feel it's not been equal.
But communicating about it in a non-arguing or nagging way is vital. So it's not really scoring to win, but paying attention so it is equal and everyone is happy.
Posted by: caramama | June 25, 2008 at 12:07 PM
Hmmm, so interesting to me that most of us females in hetero partnerships are "keepers of the flame" when it comes to just keeping the place running. And so far NONE of us like it. Amen. I was up until 1:30 am last night researching for a medical appointment my little guy had today. My husband, who really is a good guy and equal partner for the most part, just doesn't think about these things.
Here's our split, roughly:
me: all laundry
all grocery shopping
majority of cooking/meal prep (he gets breakfast for our daughter pretty much daily and lunch on weekends more often than not, also does a lot of dinner in the summer when we grill)
most bathroom cleaning & dusting
gardening chores--weeding, fertilizing, etc.
assist on fixit projects
bill paying
general life maintenance: gift buyer, card mailer, babysitter procurer, social director, etc. I make all my appoinments and those for the kids.
He does: lawn maintenance
floors
takes out trash (he hates grocery shopping. I hate taking out trash, so we agreed to each do this)
everything to do with the dog
much litterbox changing (the one benefit of IF--of the last six years there's been like one where I was either not pregnant or could not possibly be)
cleans up after dinner if I cook
anything to do with his family (b-day cards, etc.) unless I volunteer to help
car maintenance
most fix it projects, unless I just can't stand it anymore (he is Mr Procrastinator Half-Ass)
We both do general daily tidying, recycling, emptying of dishwasher, etc. He takes more of a lead on childcare on weekends. I work at home part time, he works outside the home full time. And right now with a 3 yo and a young baby I just feel there is no time ever.
I wish we could afford a clenaer, not so much because it causes friction but because we both HATE to clean, HATE HATE. So the house is generally dirtier than either of us like.
Caramama, we just went through a BIG organizational push around here about seven months ago. It's totally helped. And we have no space and no money and I swear we're both ragingly ADD and we've still managed to make it work. Shoot me an email if you want to hear my story!
Posted by: AmyinMotown | June 25, 2008 at 12:08 PM
Cloud and flea - I love the idea of using Google docs and calendar. I'm going to look into that right now!
Posted by: caramama | June 25, 2008 at 12:10 PM
A shout out to Snickollet and the point she brings up: that all of this talk of divvying is moot if you're a single parent. I think it's important to acknowledge that.
Yes, yes, yes, to so many comments and opinions posted here.
I'll talk nuts and bolts about a system that concerns one aspect of the chores that we stumbled on and that works great for us: Previous to last fall, I did all the cooking and grocery shopping. I enjoy the cooking and, truthfully, don't have a desire to relinquish control of that task. But the addition of doing all the grocery shopping drove me crazy. But I had to be the one doing it as, since I did all the cooking, I knew what was in the pantry, fridge, freezer, etc, and so would pick my way through the grocery store while running a tally in my head of what we had at home. The, last fall, through this community (of course!) someone recommended a service called Six o'clock Scramble. This service provides a weekly list of dinner recipes along with the grocery list. There are a lot of services like this. So, now, I print out the weekly list and then create a list from that for me (co-op) and for DH (conventional supermarket). We each do our separate run during the weekend. It has worked really, really well. I highly recommend menu services like this. In addition to helping to equitably split the task, I know the dinner every night of the week is covered. Our grocery bills went down and we now only eat meat about once a week, too.
Posted by: rudyinparis | June 25, 2008 at 12:13 PM
@MLB & Stacy -- ME TOO! As a SAHM, part of the bargain is having "housekeeping" be solely my responsibility. I have no problem with that -- I think the conflict comes in (as most pps have stated) when both people do paid work (at home or elsewhere) and housekeeping ISN'T somebody's "job." Raising our kid(s)during his workday, cooking and cleaning is my fulltime job. DH does the outdoor chores on the weekends, takes the trash to the curb and takes care of the pets. Everything else is mine and if he helps (which he does when the spirit moves him) then that's gravy.
As such, I have a very detailed, specific schedule I keep in regards to cleaning, cooking and shopping because it is a huge job to do it all and I have to address its giant-ness seriously.
That's not to say I wouldn't love a cleaner to come in and help out. There's parts to hate about every job and mopping is mine!
Posted by: MrsHaley | June 25, 2008 at 12:14 PM
Wow, we do the complete opposite of what you suggest!
I work outside the home. My husband is with the baby all day. Our division of labour is that he does ALL the housework and we split childcare 50/50. I'm on baby duty before I go to work, as soon as I walk in the door, and most of the weekend. He does a little housework when I'm at work, but most of it gets done during the times I have the baby (including after baby and I have gone to bed).
This works for us because I really wanted to be a near-equal parent despite being the main breadwinner. Mornings, evenings, and weekends add up to nearly exactly 50% of her waking hours.
The hard part is that I have no time to myself at all. I'm either at work, or I've got the kid. I have to negotiate "extra time" for my husband to take the baby so I can take a bath. But it's nice that I never ever wash the dishes, wash the bathroom, vacuum, take out the garbage and recycling, etc, etc. I do occasionally help him with larger jobs. For example, I'll dry the dishes if there are more than fit in our drying rack (and the baby is ok on her own) or I'll help him take our clothes to the laundromat.
Posted by: Dr. Confused | June 25, 2008 at 12:16 PM
I wonder if there are others out there with my problem--before our daughter was born my husband participated a bit more actively around the house, especially when I was pregnant, but now it's all my responsibility. The baby, the house, everything. I also work more hours per week than him and earn more. He says it's because I'm emasculating him that he won't help out more. We've been to therapy and it hasn't helped. Is it just us? I have been honestly thinking of leaving him since I'm practically a single mother anyhow. Any ideas?
Posted by: Samantha | June 25, 2008 at 12:35 PM
I love the idea of a 50/50 split in theory, but that is a difficult thing to put into practice. We're more of the "do the best you can and be sure that your spouse feels appreciated/respected with the work he/she does". My husband is a firefighter and works nine 24 hours shifts a month. This means that he works full-time, but he's home way more than I am (full-time outside of the house 8-5 job). So he ends up doing a lot more housework and childcare than I do. I don't always feel good about the amount I contribute in comparison to him. I try to counteract this by: planning meals, grocery shopping, and running errands on my lunches, and getting up early on my days off to cook for the week. I also get up early during the week to do some of the housework. Things are still off balance between us though. This is where the appreciation and respect comes in. I make a real effort to notice everything he does throughout the day and to compliment him on the work. And I bite my tongue when things aren't done in a way that I would do them. How important in the scheme of things is it that the towels aren't folded correctly in the linen closet?
Posted by: Pamela | June 25, 2008 at 12:48 PM
@ caramama -- we did the SAME THING. We moved when I was a mere month away from delivery (and even painted about 1/3 to 1/2 of the house interior), and we still haven't caught up. Most days, I'm lucky to just keep the house semi-running, much less to make progress.
That reminds me. The 3yo is at school, and the 3mo-old is napping. Guess I need to get back to organizing, ack. How the heck will I do grad school...and when? Eeeep.
Posted by: Allison | June 25, 2008 at 12:53 PM
@Samantha- no ideas, just hugs, and a kick in the butt to your Hubby. I have always made more money than my Hubby, sometimes quite a bit more. We work roughly equal hours outside of the home. We split the child care (not 50/50, because, well, he can't nurse, but he pulls his weight) and the chores. He has never once mentioned that he feels emasculated. I think he would laugh at the idea.
However, I don't think you are alone. The research numbers I've seen always indicate that women do more work around the house than men. I also hear other women complain about this issue quite a bit. The fact that this has never been an issue for us is one of the reasons that I love my Hubby so much.
Posted by: Cloud | June 25, 2008 at 12:57 PM
I feel like I do more of the housework and childcare (2 children, ages 1 and 2) despite us both being working parents. I tried to get him to see it my way. That never worked for us. But what has worked for me is to accept that this is part of my role as a their mother and a wife. Once I let go of the resentment it really did not seem so onerous to me. It helps that we have a cleaning service once a week, so my main jobs are shopping, food prep, getting kids dressed and ready in the morning, picking up, dishes (we don't have a dishwasher), laundry (75% of it, I'd say), baths, putting 1 kid to sleep each night...in addition to working 55 hrs per week. I do not do any lawn maintenance or car work or litter box. For me, this is one way that frame of mind really mattered.
Posted by: Nic | June 25, 2008 at 01:06 PM
We mostly just let our standards slip. Beyond minimally functional (grocery shopping, cooking, kitchen cleaning, taking out garbage, and laundry) the person being driven the most insane by the chore not being done does it when they finally feel like they must.
Posted by: Liza | June 25, 2008 at 01:14 PM
Our main issue (more mine than my DH's, actually) is that it's very difficult for me to do chores while my DS is awake and at home. Not that I can't...he's getting pretty independent with playing and such. It's that I have a mental block about it. I don't think he'll end up in therapy if I fold clothes instead of play cars, but I'd just rather leave the housework until he's asleep.
This, as you can imagine, results in a big pile-up of work for the evening (when we're too tired to do it) or the weekend (when we'd rather do fun things as a family).
I telecommute 2 days a week, and do get some housework done on my lunch hour then. But I need several hours to do some serious clear-out/organization.
Ack. I feel really stuck and unhappy with my house. Is anyone else out there a procrastinator? I know all the techniques, like take one room at a time and just do 10 minutes, etc., I just need to DO it. Hmm.
Posted by: meggiemoo | June 25, 2008 at 01:31 PM
Though I work almost full-time, I do it all on nights and weekends. My child has no idea. I also do most of the animal and child care, and the housework and a lot of the yard work. I do most of this while I am with my child since when she is asleep is when I do my paying work. It's not too much trouble to do stuff with her around--she likes to "help". Playing and helping while moms and dads get stuff done is how most children spent most of childhood for thousands of years. Anyway, I AM around the house during the day and he isn't so I can get these things done.
My husband, who works full-time outside the home, fixes things, runs a lot of the errands, plans, shops for (we do this as a family, and makes dinner, helps where I ask or where he chooses to (usually with the dishes), and mows and things like that.
For the most part this is okay with us. If one or the other is not feeling well or really busy the other does more. The fact that we have built up lots of goodwill over our ten years together makes this easier. Lately I got annoyed that there are various things (e.g. shave the cat) that need to happen and that I haven't been able to do because I need free evening time to do them, and my husband responded by asking me to tell him a day and we'll do it. This prevented me from stewing on the topic.
Posted by: Eva | June 25, 2008 at 01:40 PM
@Maureen...it is like you were in the car with us on the way to daycare this morning. This is the exact conversation that we had! We can let our standards go and organize ourselves (love the Google ideas), but I'm not sure what we can do about the fact that I wind up as the responsible party of our family. I'm sure some of it is me (I know some if it is me), but there is also an element of not taking responsibility in him. It is hard for me to understand how DH can't pick up a book or do a little reaserch regarding parenting. I don't over research, but isn't it nice to get some ideas? We were laughing this morning about how little monkey finally wore a hole in his shoe. I could see it coming and had mentioned it for the last week. DH still thought they were good enough to wear until I showed him that I could get my whole thumb in the hole! I guess we just have to keep working together on those different perspectives. Luckily, I love him to pieces.
Posted by: JinMomma | June 25, 2008 at 01:44 PM
@Eva...sorry, but I just almost spit my Diet Coke on my laptop when I read "(e.g., shave the cat)". I know you didn't mean it to come across funny, but that being on your list of chores just struck my funny bone. :o)
Do you really shave your cat?
Posted by: meggiemoo | June 25, 2008 at 01:46 PM
@Eva, the modeling thing is huge, isn't it?
Which brings me back to Samantha, as well - what was your DH's model? What did his parents do?
We tend to creep out of the model a bit as adults, if we work on it. But changes are incremental unless we're REALLY intentional about it.
I've noticed that my kids are better at picking up if I pick up when they're watching. Otherwise, it's just the house cleaning genie doing the work. I can SAY I did it, but they can't grasp it enough to do it themselves. A lot of the housework when I was a kid was done while I was at school. Only big huge crisis cleaning was done really 'on the hoof' in front of me (and with me). Guess which I'm good at?
But the role change = behavior change thing tends to say to me 'I had a model, it doesn't apply, so I'm clining to the parts I can cling to' - did his dad earn the money and do little around the house? He's feeling emasculated (maybe) just because his picture of men and masculinity was 'what my dad did' and he's not living on that planet, but he had no other images to hang his identity on... also, has he read 'Real Boys'? It may help him see into himself a bit more clearly. Counseling would probably work IF it was addressing men's issues specifically, since it is a ROLE issue he's struggling with. Anything more superficial will not work. It has to go to the core need, the need to be heroic and provider and then be able to rest on his laurels and be admired for producing safety and sanctuary (financially speaking). Current model doesn't have any of that, and the only thing he can cling to is resting on his laurels, but he doesn't know why he's doing that, and without a reason, he ends up only with emotional defenses, and not logic.
That's my read, anyway. Just like the whole Madonna/Wh*re syndrome works - the change of roles in the family creates a crisis in the person who too-strongly set up their role structure. "Women who are sexy can't be mothers, mothers can't be sexy, please don't tell me otherwise." In his case, somewhere in his mind maybe he expected that once you had a baby, you'd turn into his ideal of motherhood, which would make him into his ideal of fatherhood, and everything would be peachy. Just the term 'emasculating' makes me think he's dealing with a male role crisis.
Could be totally wrong, I'm winging it on armchair reading of one comment, here!
Posted by: hedra | June 25, 2008 at 01:55 PM
(oh, and guess which I do, myself - I clean when the kids aren't around. DANG.)
Posted by: hedra | June 25, 2008 at 01:58 PM
I totally did a double take, too! I say whoever shaves the cat gets the rest of the week off.
Posted by: rudyinparis | June 25, 2008 at 02:00 PM
I am, like others, the Organizer in my household. My husband is not a details person; I knew this long before we married so ages ago I accepted that this is my role.
The one thing that's saved my sanity (and marriage, no doubt) is to ask him for help when I need it. I ask in a specific way: what exactly I want help with and what the deadline is. For example: it's Wednesday and we're having company on Saturday so please clean up your pile of papers on the dining room table before Saturday's lunch. Giving a reasonable deadline is key because it gives the freedom to do the chore on his schedule.
The other sanity- and marriage-saver: house cleaner. Worth every penny.
Posted by: heather | June 25, 2008 at 02:01 PM
@JinMomma- there was an entire post about the difference in researching child care issues at some point. Either that, or we all hijacked the comments on a different post. I don't have time to find it now, but I'll bet you could find it in the search. I suspect you can guess the consensus, though- the moms do more research than the dads.
The key for keeping me sane about the disparity in research and organizational tasks (i.e., the fact that I do almost all of it) is to recognize these as chores and put them on our list. That way, I get "credit" for the time I spend on it, and it gets balanced by some chore Hubby will do but I won't. Hubby can correctly say that I never spend anytime digging holes in the garden, and he has spent quite a bit of time on that lately, because the previous owners of our house had made some seriously weird gardening decisions. To be honest, I'd rather research toddler feeding issues than dig a hole, and he'd rather dig a hole than do the research. So once we recognized the research as a chore and put it on the balance sheet, I stopped feeling bad about doing all of it. Hubby will listen to a summary of my results and help me decide on a course of action, though, and that is very important to me.
We've also done what flea suggests- if there is a specific topic that needs researching or a specific thing that needs organizing, we might assign that to Hubby. Luckily, Hubby has yet to try assigning me any holes to dig.
Posted by: Cloud | June 25, 2008 at 02:03 PM
One thing to add- writing my last comment made me realize that I strongly agree with Caramama- don't keep score of who does what, but do keep track. The fact that we each know what the other one does keeps us from having acrimonious arguments about who took the garbage out last (almost always him) or who last cleaned the toilets (almost always me). Also, remember to say thank you when your partner does something out of the ordinary. Heck, we even try to thank each other for the little chores we do all the time. It helps to feel appreciated!
Posted by: Cloud | June 25, 2008 at 02:10 PM
This reminds me so much of the discussion here about who in the couple does child-related research. What gets me is perpetually having to be the one who thinks of it, whatever "it" may be.
My husband is really quite good at Doing stuff, but will never, ever Think to do it. And being the voice of all things negative gets exhausting.
Family google doc is genius, I'm getting right on that. Thank you.
Posted by: Caroline | June 25, 2008 at 02:22 PM
cautionary tale, not that it applies to anyone:
I never learned to clean properly because my mother's mother is a crazy neat freak and always did everything: even when my mom was an adult and I was a kid. Seriously, my grandmother would come over 1-2 times a week to clean everything and bleach the hell out of our laundry. even cleaned my room. I felt guilty even as a kid but I didn't learn to clean. My mom says she doesn't know how either.
like to the point where people talk about "dusting" or "mopping" and I can't really picture what that looks like. If something spills...I wipe it up...sooner or later. Dishes get done...eventually. Laundry when I'm out of underwear. (though how many times have I forgotten it in the washer until mildew set in)
My 18 month old son picks up his toys better than I would, mops up his spills, and when dinner is done he stacks everyone's dishes up like the world's tiniest busboy. Doesn't get it from me!
I could never hire a cleaner because I am embarassed about the mess in the house. And what would he/she do with all the crap that just doesn't have a home? You know, the top of the TV junk pile and stuff...or am I the only one who has that? I don't even know where to put it, why would some stranger?
Posted by: shirky | June 25, 2008 at 02:28 PM
@meggiemoo - I could have written your comment! We just moved cross-country, though, and it has given me a lot of perspective on things that were holding me back in our previous home. I realized that I was trying to clean, etc, based on what I thought the ideal was instead of my desires for our home. It's helped to replace the "should/else"s with "want/so"s. (e.g., "I should fold the laundry, or else I'll be a bad housekeeper/we'll have nowhere to sit" vs. "I want to be able to sit on the couch and to have clean clothes at the ready if I want to go somewhere fun, so I'd better get this laundry folded and put away.")
Thinking in terms of what a clean house would let me do (cook dinner without having to work around a mess, let E. play in the empty laundry baskets instead of worrying about her dragging clean 3-day-in-the-basket clothes across the dirty kitchen floor, etc) really helped. Where we lived before I didn't have much to look forward to, so there wasn't any positive motivation, but now with that I am getting SO much more done!
Posted by: Becky | June 25, 2008 at 02:28 PM
OK, I gave the specifics of how things work in our house on the previous post, but I wanted to chime in about the “child care is actual work” statement.
Yesterday, my husband worked for 12 hours at his office.
Yesterday I took a morning nap, messed around on the computer, went to playgroup, went shopping, watched some TV, and went to a baby shower. Sure, I also checked/responded to some work e-mail and nursed/tended to my 4-month-old former preemie all day long, but I had a lot of fun and basically did what I wanted when I felt like it. That’s hardly the equivalent of getting up early/commuting/putting in a long day at the office/reverse commuting. What I do on my “at-home” days is much easier than what either my husband or I do on our “office” days. Even the days I watch my friend’s 3-year old are fun, playful, flexible, and pretty relaxing.
I can imagine a situation (maybe you’re parenting a special needs child or homeschooling a half-dozen kids) where childcare alone takes 100% of your daytime concentration. But child care isn’t necessarily hard or demanding and it’s not too tough to do some housework (or WAH office-type work) at the same time. I basically pay my occasional babysitter to read while my son naps.
Posted by: Ashley | June 25, 2008 at 02:32 PM
I think we are the most successful when we are the most flexible, in our house. We each have our own list of things we're usually responsible for, but if somebody has a crazy day or if company is coming over, we shift things around so that it all gets done.
Posted by: Julie | June 25, 2008 at 02:33 PM
Just rushing out but will come back and read comments later for sure!
I just wanted to say - we never really have worked it out. Both of us were raised in homes where chores were the subject of terrible conflict. In typical fashion we almost recreated that dynamic.
At a certain point it was divorce over the chores, or deal with the majority of them myself. Upon reflection, in therapy, I decided that if my gift to the marriage was to do the chores, I could live with that in the context of the other amazing stuff. But it was one of the hardest decisions.
I've worked on getting as efficient as possible - FlyLady, for all the tone issues I have with it, really has helped.
More later, at the very least reading!
Posted by: Shandra | June 25, 2008 at 02:33 PM