Q&A: Neighbor stealing her nanny

I'm cranky about this comment trouble. But Alexis is even crankier:

"I have a neighbor (who thank god just moved away) who uses my full time nanny constantly for weekends and weeknights.  2 years ago, I invited her to share our nanny, as she had her first child.  Since then the mom has quit her job, and no longer needs regular care.  She did however, continue to use our house as "drop in day care" when she needed it for appointments or whatever.  For the most part, I deemed this acceptable because my oldest loves their oldest.  However, I now have 3 kids (3, 2, and 1 yrs) and that is a lot to handle.

I have spoken to both my nanny and the mom about how I am uncomfortable with how much my former neighbor asks our nanny to work.  This conversation was prompted because my nanny called my husband one day and said he needed him to come home because she had to go across the street!  What? 

Anyway, the mom is totally unresponsive to the fact that I would like to use my nanny on weekends, but I respect that she needs a break and has a life so I tend to not ask her.  When I expressed my discomfort specifically to the mom she said she thinks our nanny has every right to do what she wants and she(the mom) should be able to book her--that I need to just book her then.  They did move away, but not far sot the drop in stuff has stopped, but the other stuff has not.

This weekend, the former neighbors invited her on a weekend trip.  I actually realized this after she left, and  put two and two together that that is why she requested two days off from work from us.  I think she may have extended the weekend trip with her fiance, but I am just appalled that my former neighbor would consider booking my full time nanny for a weekend trip.  I would never in a million years book a friend's full-time nanny for a weekend.  Maybe if I was desperate and cleared it with my friend,but even then just maybe.

Well, my bind is I am extremely displeased with my neighbor, and now so with my nanny and do not know how to address either of them.  I am so mad, I don't know what to say, and I don't even know which of  my expectations are reasonable or which are not.  Please help."

My initial reaction was, "That's screwed up!" Because there are a ton of angles on it. On the one hand, this is a free market economy (for the majority of my readers), so the neighbor is free to hire whoever she wants, and the nanny is free to work for whoever she wants.

On the other hand, it sounds like the neighbor has just gone way too far. Using the nanny as an occasional babysitter seems reasonable to me (especially because it's hard to find a good babysitter, so if you only need one occasionally it's hardly even worth the search and reference checking, etc.). And maybe an occasional night or weekend when the neighbor knows for sure it wouldn't be infringing on the nanny's regular work schedule. But to take the nanny on a trip that would require her to ask for time off from her regular job? That's ridiculous and presumptuous.

On the third hand, what's the nanny thinking? In NYC, where it's a hirer's market for babysitters, the nanny would have been fired for double-timing and requesting days off from one family to work for another. Unless the nanny really doesn't want to work for Alexis anymore, and is pulling the old "I'm too cowardly to break up with her so I'll act like a jerk until she breaks up with me" ploy that works so well for 19-year-old boys.

Either way, I think some confrontation may be in order between Alexis and her nanny. Parameters need to be set about when the nanny can freelance. And if the nanny's not happy about that, then she needs to be honest and resign from working for Alexis.

As for the neighbor? Well, you could always sign her up for a bunch of new magazine subscriptions she doesn't want. If it were me I'd never say anything to the neighbor about it because I'm conflict-averse, but also because the neighbor clearly doesn't get that her behavior is inappropriate. It's hard to talk to someone  who doesn't have the same set of standards and values you do, so sometimes the best you can do is just let it go and move on. Since she doesn't live near Alexis anymore, Alexis never has to see her again, and can just refer to her as "remember that horrible woman who stole my nanny" from now on.

What do you guys think? Are you as scandalized as I was by the situation? It's the sneakiness of it all that upsets me most.

try clicking through to comments the regular way, but if that doesn't work, try this: http://www.askmoxie.org/2008/06/qa-neighbor-stealing-her-nanny.html?cid=117769662#comments

Comments

[Moxie]

Whoa. This might have worked.

[MLB]

Other than the two days off for the weekend trip, I am genuinely confused as to what the problem is. Why can't she work for someone else when she is not working for Alexis? And I say this as someone with a nanny for three kids. If Alexis is not asking her to work on the weekend, what difference does it make if she works for someone else? Basically, she has no right to say she can't work for another family or can't work at Starbucks. It is none of her business unless it is interfering with the nanny's ability to work for them according to the pre-determined schedule. It's not Alexis's job to decide that her nanny needs a weekend break, as obviously the nanny does not agree.

[Amie]

Totally agree with MLB

[Elle]

Moxie love your blog and think you are awesome.

I think the nanny is free to moonlight for whomever she wants, as long as it has 0 impact on her full-time employer. Just like in any other job. That means no extra kids taking time/attention away from the full-time employers kids, no leaving early or arriving late, no "calling in sick" to work for the other family. Everyone's entitled to their vacation time so as long as I got notice that she wanted the days off and she was entitled to them it wouldn't bug me as much as all the other stuff.

The neighbour is clearly just looking out for her own needs and could obviously not care less about overstepping any boundaries. You have no sway over her, but you do set the working conditions for your nanny. I'd say sit her down and ask her if she's happy working for you, and that you really need her to focus on your family while she is working for you. If she wants to babysit during her off hours, that her is business but should not inconvenience you or your kids in any way. Who knows what the neighbour is telling her, maybe she thinks you are BFF and you are OK with it? Good luck, these child care issues are so hard.

[flea]

Working for me! Yay!

Huh, I can see this one from both sides. (I have employed a shared nanny in the past, but since we were paying so much for nanny care that we could never afford to go out, we never had trouble with double-booking evenings and weekends.) Here's my take:

1. When you are employing the nanny, you should have first dibs on what happens. So, drop-in care should be approved in advance by the employer, who gets to decide if it's free (= a play date) or paid for by the other family.

2. The employer doesn't get to decide what the nanny does in her free time, whether it's caring for the neighbor's kids or making Obama girl videos. If you'd like to hire the nanny on a weekend, it's totally up to the nanny to decide whether she wants to work for you or not. BUT:

3. It is a bit rude to hire someone else's nanny very consistently. AND:

4. It is very rude to ask a nanny who you know to be employed to take time off from her main employer to work for you. It is also wrong of the nanny to agree to this request.

If it were me, I'd talk to the nanny. Talking to the neighbor is clearly not going anywhere. If you have regular weekend issues, you might expand the terms of the nanny's contract to include something like "priority for additional evening/weekend sitting, on two weeks' notice, two weekends a month" or whatever suits your needs. I'd be pissed at the "vacation time" for another job, and tell the nanny so, and suggest that if you can't work it out, you might need a new nanny (depending on the employment sitch in your area and how good the nanny is in other aspects.)

I've gotta say, after hearing about the 'theft' of a long-term nanny that involved the gift of a car and a $45K salary (in a small city in the south, not a coastal metropolitan area!), nothing about nanny stuff will scandalize me.

[moo]

As a former nanny and babysitter, I have sympathy for the nanny. When your family loves you and recommends your services to their friends it's really hard. Because then the friends call and suddenly you're in a tug-of-war with both (or three!) families.

I always felt like my first loyalty was to my first family ... and I never cancelled on them when I was expected to be there (i.e., my regular job). BUT! If family 2 or 3 booked me in advance for a night or weekend, then family 1 decided oh hey, I wanted that night ... tough cookies. I wasn't available 24/7 to family 1 just because I was their regular nanny.

The nanny shouldn't be brought into the middle of it, is what I'm saying. The families need to figure it out. (easier said than done!)

[rudyinparis]

Hmmm. The thing you mention that would most piss me off is the nanny needing your husband to come home so she can, presumably, care for the neighbor's children. This is a no-no, for sure. As other posters have mentioned, this is a free-market economy and your situation is a handy little petri dish of how things play out.

Your nanny has every right to seek additional employment. Many, many people, after all, have second jobs. So the rules here are I think the same: her second job (the other family) must not impede her performance on her first job. If it does, she can be canned.

Alexis, it's awesome you're asking for advice and I can hear how frustrated you are. Your situation IS frustrating. I do want to just put in, though, that this is a free-market situation, not a fiefdom. Why wouldn't you book a friend's nanny for an evening? Do you think nannies are robots, unable to make decisions or lacking free will? Are they automatons who we must protect from exploitation, i.e., overwork? Nannies are, I believe, capable of rational thought and are also capable of deciding how they want to spend their time. It somehow sounds a little like you expect your nanny to plug herself into an outlet when she's not with your family, so that she will be properly charged for her duties to you. But perhaps she's broke and has more energy than you think. She's human, after all, and they can be hard buggers to figure out.

Anyway. All that said, I get why you're frustrated. Basically, your nanny's performance isn't living up to your expectations. I think a performance evaluation is perfectly appropriate here. Tell her you feel she's not happy with her current employment. Get feedback. Everything is negotiable. You can, I think, even tell her that you feel she's stretching herself too thin. Give a probationary period, say 3 weeks or whatever. At the end of that time, if you haven't noticed any nanny poaching ask her again if she's happy in her current position. Check back in. Review. If you do notice poaching, you can address it again and inform she'll be let go if it continues.

Good luck! It sounds like this situation is really unsatisfying--what I hope happens is that you're able to let the nanny go and are able to find a different one that will be a great match for you and your family.

[Maureen]

We have a nanny and while we don't use her weekends or evenings - she's offered and it is nice to know we have that option should we need it. I'd have no problem with her getting a second weekend/evening job so long as it didn't affect her quality of work when she was with my boys. If she seemed too tired and I thought their care was compromised and lacking because of that, there would definitely be an issue.

The whole drop off/taking care of the other kids while on the clock with you is completely unacceptable. I'd definitely have a talk with the nanny and indicate that there will be no playdates/other children unless that is preplanned by you. If she can live within those bounds, you should start looking for another nanny.

As for taking time off to be with another family - that's a tough one for me. If it is completely planned out way in advance and that is how she wants to use her vacation days, then not sure it is my place to say anything. However, if it is more that she's called in sick last minute, then definitely no.

Good luck though... sounds like you are really frustrated with the neighbor (possibly she "used" to be a better friend and you no longer feel so friendly with her) and extending that some to the nanny.

[Nancyt]

About the nanny needing the husband to come home, maybe there's a missing part to the story and the husband was LATE? And maybe she had the other job booked and due to his lateness, she was late for her next gig? If I was the nanny and that was the case I'd give the guy a call too.

However, booking time off from one job to do another is a definite no-no. The other folks must be paying her more highly but don't want her full-time, that's my guess.

[lucy]

Alexis. Sounds like you need to chat to the nanny; chat to the former neighbor, work out some boundaries and stick to them. I agree the nanny should be able to work for other families as long as she is fulfilling her obligations to you and your family. Getting your husband home so she can look after the neighbors kids isn't on. But its not a no brainer. Its just communication and being honest. Its horrible when its a neighbor or ex neighbor but in my experience once you get it all out in the open and come to a mutually acceptable agreement it will clear the air, you'll both have the nanny when you need her and the nanny will have the extra work it seems she needs. But don't fester. You'll end up hating the nanny and hating your neighbor and hating yourself and that will just be blurgh.

[ramy]

Just jumping in from lurkdom b/c I can't convince myself to work this morning...

I'm with rudyinparis--the part that would really tick me off is calling my husband so he could come home and watch the kids (which you are paying for her to do) so she can go across the street and double time.

I would think that needs to be addressed. As for the nannies weekend/vacation time, that is all free-market.

Good luck

[Mary Jo Graves]

I just don't understand posts like this. I would love to hear the nanny's take on this. Employees should be absolutely free to decide how they use their evenings and weekends. In any job I know, your boss has no right to object to your having another job outside of business hours.

One has to wonder if the neighbor pays the nanny more. In my experience most nannies don't get paid a living wage.

I find this comment rather off-putting. "On the third hand, what's the nanny thinking? In NYC, where it's a hirer's market for babysitters, the nanny would have been fired for double-timing "
I take care of my one year old grandson in Manhattan three days a week and mainly socialize with nannies.I would not want to work with many, if not most, of their employers. Most of them are desperate for more work to make ends meet.

[hedra]

I'm nanny-sharing for the summer with my brother (at our house). I expect that my brother may nab dibs on her for weekends or evenings if he's asked her first. If I ask her first, I get dibs. Totally first-come, first-served. And I expect that if he started dropping his younger child on us, too (we're contracted just for the older one, our house is going to be JAMMED as it is), we'd have to address that as a contract issue and set some limits and boundaries - how often, when, for how long, who has to be contacted (call ME first, not the Nanny? - though this being my brother, I'd probably allow more leeway than I would with a friend).

Do you have a contract with your nanny? If you do, review it. Leaving early to care for someone else's kids isn't usually part of the contract. If you don't have a contract, you can relieve a lot of the pressure on the 'figuring out what to expect on any given day' side by adopting one - it helps the Nanny, too, by giving her guidelines so she's not being put under pressure to choose by popularity or need. She's just following her contract, hands tied, etc. Working it out with her should be mutual, and should recognize that SHE has been put in this bind, and that you want to find a mutually agreeable contract position so that everyone's needs (in the contract - that is, yours and hers) are met - and while you're not actively including the other neighbor, you have to at least pretend she is merely theoretical for the process, IMHO (otherwise, the emotions get involved and ... well, it won't feel good to anyone, even if you 'win').

What I'd line up would be hours and days of employment, number and amount of time off days, and how much notice required for time off - plus amount of additional drop-in care allowed, and with what notice (and with what notification and approval by you even in emergencies, ... and maybe how much additional pay the nanny should get from the other mom for those events).

As for the vacation thing... honestly, if she was entitled to vacation days, and she had a shot at a well-paid gig that would take vacation days, and she scheduled the vacation properly with you, then... she did her side just fine. If it had been a high-paying NON-Nanny job event, would it have felt better? I'd prefer to hear 'I'm really hurting for the cash right now, and I've been offered a chance to earn double-pay for a full-time vacation care gig - that's also somewhere I'd love to go, but it means taking vacation from YOUR family - vacation I'm allowed to take, yeah, but... I'm conflicted, but I'd really like the chance to earn the extra money. What do you think?' In fact, I *have* heard that, and have accepted it and adapted and carried on. Mainly because it was presented clearly, and the recognized conflict (on both our parts) was acknowledged. I'm betting the Nanny didn't say anything because she knew it WOULD make you uncomfortable. Bringing the discomfort into the light is just more professional, IMHO. It's also really really hard to do. It may feel more safe to just pretend it is 'just a vacation' and hope you don't notice, than to AGAIN blow you off for the other family, even if it is just because the opportunity was sooooo tempting. Unfortunately, now she's got a) a history of not being upfront with you, and b) guilt and a codependent relationship with the other mom going on. Which goes right back to setting boundaries again. Mutually defined and agreed boundaries will make it so much easier for you to decide if she's breaking contract, or if you're just feeling the bruises from past trespasses a bit.

Anyway, that's where I'd go. She's entitled to work a second (third, fourth) job if she can still accomplish the requirements and meet the standards of the first job. If not, she needs to adjust the secondary jobs, or leave the first one. However, if the standards are more personal/loose/undefined/flexible and less professional/explicit at job 1 (yours), re-defining the expectations more professionally can be your answer. Keep it non-personal, though. Hard hard hard to do, but essential (you'll risk putting the Nanny in a very hard spot if you get at all emotional about the process).

I know it's frustrating, but the real issue is that boundaries weren't properly defined, and when things changed, they weren't *re*-defined. You (probably fairly) expected the other two parties to adjust to your boundaries, but they didn't, and it's landed right where we've talked about with boundaries with adult parents - someone is walking over the line, and causing painful dents in the territory. Time to set the line back where it belongs. Not retribution-wise, just clearly, firmly, and (hopefully) respectfully where they belong. (Hard to not want to smack them until they feel the way you do about being used and abused, but... not useful.)

Good luck!

[ValleyGal]

Do you have a contract with the nanny? Have you considered one? It sounds like you need some firm boundaries around her employment with YOU. You can't (and shouldn't expect to) control her free time (or what she does on properly scheduled vacation time). But you should expect that her outside activities don't affect your family. Let's put it this way, if the outside job was at a store in the mall, would you be conflicted about speaking up? I didn't think so. Perhaps a contract would help give you the boundaries you need and avoid future conflict. You can just say that your accountant suggested that you should have one (for wage/hour compliance or something -- this is, of course, assuming all taxes, etc. are being paid) and set the terms of her employment (hours expectations, scheduling of her vacation time, etc).

[hedra]

Rereading, I was too strongly stating that there WAS guilt/codependence and that one SHOULD ask permission. I suspect there is guilt and codependence, but if she's professional and clear, then she's just keeping HER boundaries intact. That is entirely possible.

And I've also had a care provider take another paying gig and simply inform me with enough time for me to make alternate plans. It was only when she was aware that alternate plans were going to require some flexing and adjusting that she acknowledged the issue it caused me and the conflict that causing me any issues caused her. When it was 'my vacation is scheduled for X weeks three months from now' there was ZERO commentary about what she did in that time. If it was 'oh, in two weeks, I'd like to take two days off' there was a different discussion.

[ValleyGal]

Also, why don't you build in the extra weekend time to her regular schedule? I know lots of people who schedule/prepay for two weekends a month, etc. If you prepay for it and schedule it on the first Monday of the month, that will give you the "extra" time you want and allow the nanny to do whatever she'd like on the other nights (like, for example, work for your neighbor).

[lolismum]

I have had a full time nanny for the last 4 years, not always the same one. The rules are always the same. When they are on my clock, they do exactly as the job description says, when they are off the clock: weekends and nights, they do as they wish. They can hold another job (my current nanny does work at her friend's restaurant on the weekends) as long as it does not affect the job she does for me. If she showed up in the morning all groggy, tired and unable to perform, whether because she was working all night, or out partying all night, I would let her know that's not acceptable. If I needed her on weekends or nights, I always give her a list of dates/times well in advance and book her like I would normally book a babysitter. If she is busy, I move to do list of our occasional babysitters.

Alexis, your neigbhor is violating a social norm, being obnoxious, opportunistic, inconsiderate. However, you cannot and should not control your nanny does on her off time. Double timing on your clock is unacceptable, but controlling her free time is equally unacceptable. Was your husband late without informing her? That's unacceptable as well. Treat your nanny like a professional and she will treat you equally and don't worry about who's trying to poach her.

P.S. Our previous nanny once asked for 4 days off (as a part of her vacation.) She went to Paris with the family she nannied before us, but she was upfront about it. Their 5 year old had just completed chemotherapy, they were going to take a celebratory vacation and they wanted our nanny to come (she has working knowledge of French) because the kids liked her a lot and she had been there to help take care of the sick one when she was first diagnosed. The other mom did the right thing, called and checked with me. Our nanny was equally straightforward and it all worked out. Your neighbor may not be decent, but you should definitely have better communication with your nanny.

[Jennifer]

The number one question is this: if the nanny contracted to be availeable to this family on the weekends or is it understood that the weekends are hers? If her schedule is M-F, then she can take whichever job she chooses on the weekends. If you want her, schedule it with her!
I have nannied for several families at once making sure that contracts didn't overlap. If she is contracted to be "anytime we need you you are at our beck and call" then the parent has a right to complain. However, I would never make that contract as a nanny. People who hire nannies need to understand that they are human and your employee and yes, they work without breaks and, many times, without many holidays either. No other employer could get away with abusing nannies and their times the way nannies get abused; but nannies go into the work know what he or she is getting into.
You don't own a nanny, only their time when you need them. What they do on their own time is their business. If she was babysitting for a totaly unknown family on her off time would it be an issue?

I do think that calling a parent to come home early so that she could babysit for another famil is unprofessional.

[Bella]

Hmmm... I'm with some of the commenters who just don't get what the problem is with part of this: the part that the nanny is working for another family during her time off from the first. I have a full-time nanny (live-out). I have NO IDEA what she does with her life on weekends or evenings. I would never presume to ask, except out of polite conversation in the line of "how was your weekend?" All I know is that she is fantastic with my boys and she's 100% reliable in terms of arriving on time and leaving on time. Even 15 min late and she either calls or I call (if either is late). She could be pounding down beers at the local pool hall every night and hosting the local lu-lu lounge caberet nights for all I care/have a right to judge when she's not working her scheduled hours for me.

So, @Hedra, for example: I'm sincerely confused by your statement: "I'd prefer to hear 'I'm really hurting for the cash right now, and I've been offered a chance to earn double-pay for a full-time vacation care gig - that's also somewhere I'd love to go, but it means taking vacation from YOUR family - vacation I'm allowed to take, yeah, but... I'm conflicted, but I'd really like the chance to earn the extra money. What do you think?'

Why does she have to pass this by you? What is the conflict? Why does she need to share personal info about her finances and sweeten the plea with the fact that she really wants to visit this destination? In other words, what makes her beholden to you in any way outside her working hours? Or am I missing something?

Reading this discussion has actually really opened my eyes to why my nanny DOES seem to be so private and restrained in sharing any personal info with me. I've always thought that it was just her personality and I respected that, but now I'm thinking maybe it's because she's had experiences with employers who voiced concerns about what she did with her personal time...(it may also be that she's a hard-core Catholic and knows us to be raging heathens of the atheist/buddhist leaning variety).

Having said all this, OBVIOUSLY if the nanny in question is taking time off from her regularly scheduled work hours with the first family to accommodate a second own, that's completely uncool and discussing this with her openly seems the way to go.

[michelle]

1) you don't get to decide what the nanny does on her time off. If you aren't paying her for nights or weekends- then butt out.

2) you need to talk right away about expectations for when she is on the clock for you. This may be, in part, your fault for originally saying it was OK for the nanny to watch the neighbor's kids sometimes. What I mean is the nanny may not know what you expect. No more watching other people's kids on your dime. No taking days off to go out of town for other families (unless this is within whatever vacation parameters you've set with her. Again- if it is her vacation day, then butt out and let her do whatever she wants).

3) Explain the rules clearly. Consider writing a note to the former neighbor saying clearly that she is not to drop off her kids with your nanny at all during the week and that the nanny is not being paid for this.

[Moxie]

Maybe I was reading this differently from everyone else, but it sounded like Alexis's nanny asked for two days off from her normal job just to go on this trip with the other family, and that it wasn't part of her vacation time. If it was part of her normal vacation, that's fine, but if not, then that's a huuuuuge problem.

@Mary Jo, yeah, I wouldn't want to work for many of the parents in Manhattan. I wouldn't want to socialize with them, either, and don't even get me started on the PTA. But I've also heard horror stories of stuff nannies have done that is unprofessional bordering on cruel. It's a truly problematic situation, and I feel lucky to have the babysitter I have. I'm sure your kids are thrilled to have you there three days a week. Having set expectations and a contract makes everything work better for everyone. (Also, don't assume that all the people who employ babysitters in Manhattan are making scads of cash. Some of us are bringing home not much more than we pay out to our babysitters each week.)

[Amy]

I don't really get what the problem is with any of it - the nanny is certainly free to work for whomever she chooses when she is not on the clock with her other employer; and if she asked for extra time off, and Alexis granted it, she can spend that time however she chooses. If Alexis didn't want to grant that time off, she didn't have to. And I'm with the other commenters who wonder what the whole story is on asking the husband to come home so she could go across the street - was she really asking him to come home EARLY, or was she asking him to come home at the agreed-upon time because she'd lined up another job during her normal off-hours?

I don't live in an area where nanny-possessiveness is a norm, so this whole thing just baffles me.

[hedra]

@Bella, I tried to explain the details of that scenario specifically, but apparently not well! I *PREFER* to have it discussed with me when it means I have to adjust my schedule with shorter than usual notice. I have absolutely NO lookout otherwise. Since I've had both situations occur (vacation scheduled normally, no idea what they did or where they went, not my business; vacation time scheduled with shorter notice, right at the 'Oh, shit, what am I going to do to cover the time' edge, it became a discussion. And, even then, it was not at MY discretion that the discussion occurred. It was at theirs. The conflict there was 'this isn't what you expected, I know, here's my reasons for wanting to go against expectations - even though it is technically entirely within my rights regardless'. I *prefer* the notification and discussion and acknowledgement that this makes things messy for me.

But for 'I'm scheduling two days off within our standard agreement' - go for it. Don't have to pass a thing past me, and don't even have to check with me about whether you need to pass anything by me first.

So, sorry on that one - I was overlaying my personal experience on the existing question, and it came out funky!

[hedra]

Come to think of it, the care provider in question needn't have gone into the detail she did - I think she was probably laying the weight as hard as possible on her end, so that I'd feel gracious about it. Guess that exposes the rather mortifying truth that I'm able to be blandished with that kind of spin. :wince: Can I roll my eyes at myself? (care provider in question knew me pretty well, also - which also means that she was a) more comfortable dumping the details into the mix, and b) knew exactly what buttons to push to get me to say yes!... ah, well. Nothing like a little insight into the stupider parts of one's personality!)

[Maria Wood]

I tried to comment before, computer crashed and I lost my post. Sheesh. I agree with previous posters who have said the nanny's off hours are her own business and the questioner seems to be trying to control things that are not hers to control.

This post is related to the previous two days' posts: Who is taking care of our kids? I didn't comment on those because I couldn't formulate coherent thoughts as I am too enraged at the impossible and completely illogical situation we are in as mothers.

I can't tell you the self-flagellation I go through every day because I can't be everything, because as a mother, particularly a single mother, I can't do everything and because I have the selfish nerve to want to raise my own child. I have absolutely zero help from my daughter's father, who lives in another state, or from my family who are just not able to do more than a token hour or two of babysitting every few weeks or so.

I can't imagine a realistic solution to the big problem of our expectations of mothers and children, and the economics of it - running a house, raising kids are completely unvalued and there isn't a way to even talk about it sanely, I think. You have to go back to stuff like what's the purpose of government, society, culture?

I'm going to stop before I hijack the thread even further and before I go off into an even more incoherent rant. The longer I parent the more enraged I am at the insanity of the whole setup.

[&BabyMakes75]

Sorry no time to read other comments, just my thoughts:
- How is your nanny's relationships with your children? Start and work from there. If your children aren't being affected from this annoying/over-stepping/really, really annoying neighbor's behavior, then, honestly, it is only your problem. Sure, the neighbor and, possibly, the nanny aren't behaving in ways that are close to ideal, but are your children being affected? If is is truly just you who is po'd on this, then search within yourself to see why this bothers you so much. I can certainly understand why it would, but I recommend focusing on if it is affecting your children directly. If, however, it just reminds you of times in your life when people were unfair or took advantage of you, then I think the annoying, hard truth is that this then becomes only your issue and not one to actually deal with between your nanny and old neighbor. I hope this isn't too harsh... I have learned this type of stuff the hard way :-)

[elizabeth]

I'm a wee bit disturbed by the way some of these comments toss around "nanny" as a mere object -- you could substitute "vacuum cleaner" in many of these statements with ease.

"She took my nanny and I want it (oops, I mean her) back..." Can't say I blame this poor nanny, what with the way she's described.

[kidsmom]

1. Nanny can take a second job as long as it doesn't interfere with her full time job with you. What if she went to work at The Gap, instead of for your neighbor?

2. Drop in care at your house is at YOUR discretion. I wouldn't like it at my house.

[portia]

I agree with what everyone else has said: the only thing the nanny has done wrong is the single incident of calling the husband to come home (and, as someone mentioned above, might he have been late coming home?). Your nanny should absolutely commit to your family during the hours you have agreed to. Other than that, (assuming she did indeed have vacation time to use when she traveled with the other family), I think she's blameless. It sounds as though she may be confused as to whether or not you actually want to help this family out, since you originally offered this neighbor help with the new baby.

One other thing I don't see mentioned: I'm a nanny, and though I adore the little boy and the family I work for, I am already at their house full-time every day. I *really* don't want to spend evenings or weekends there too--even if I need the extra money. I babysit in the evenings occasionally (three or four times a month) for other families in order to have a little extra cash, and it's honestly just a nice change to be in a different house, with different kids and different habits and different snacks! ;-) If my employers need someone in an emergency, I'm there in a second, but I prefer not to book evenings and weekends with them in general. It's nice of you to consider that your nanny needs a break on the weekends, but sometimes just getting away from your regular routine is enough of a break.

[hedra]

Mea culpa on that one, too. Dibs was bad. (Though I was really refering to the dynamic between me and my brother... I'm not expecting the nanny to agree to anything other than what's in our agreement. Though I do tend to think of 'Nanny' as a 'service' more than a person - there's a person PROVIDING the service, just like the cleaning service - Mrs J is the business owner, she's not the cleaning lady... And I'll expect the same 'business owner' responses from the nanny, too - that she defines and agrees to the terms of her service, and uses her service as a business object. I'm afraid I tend to speak of services as objects not people, as well... hmm. What a fun way to end the week, rethinking how I think! I'll go crawl into a hole, now... :more wince: )

[shirky]

are these rules spelled out somewhere or do people just...know?

this is the part I can't understand
"3. It is a bit rude to hire someone else's nanny very consistently."

can't fathom this 'rule'.

anyway, TEAM NANNY on this one, my peoples. Keep her from earning that xxxtra dough and she will get wise and bounce off to a job with insurance and predictable hours. so careful!!

[Marie]

pbs c

[ikate]

I was going to say exactly what MLB said...it's the nanny's time off and as long as it doesn't interfere with her set work hours who cares who else she sits for? It's none of your business!

[Tsubaki]

Sign me up for TEAM NANNY, too!

The neighbor does sound like a handful, but it's up to Alexis to let her know what the boundaries are and enforce them if necessary.

Moxie, I'm a little surprised you were so sympathetic towards this poster.

[Dana]

Team Nanny here. Because I was one. And we are people, not things. We can and should be able to work a second or third job if we want/ need to.

Have you ever taken a "personal day" to go on an interview @ another company? Kind of the same situation as Miss Nanny taking 2 days to work for someone else.

The quality of care appears to be pretty high, especially since there are two families fighting over the same girl! I would first try to figure out your expectations/ needs/ wants and then discuss them openly with your nanny. Talking to the neighbor clearly isn't an option.

Also, if it comes to you finding a new nanny, I would advise against inviting others to "share" and nix the "drop in daycare." Your home is not a daycare. It's your home. And it can be difficult for a nanny to say no to other neighbors (because we are sometimes aware that we are *just* nannies and not socialites) unless those rules are clearly defined by you.

[hedra]

Is anyone here thinking anything along the lines of 'no f-ing soap'?

Wasn't that discussion here? At Christmas, I think? It's the professional consideration thing - we are upset about how poorly we're treated as moms, how we're not given the respect for that job we deserve... and then we go ahead and do the same with the providers who care for our kids.

My old DCP (who at one point was a shared nanny - it was my two kids and one other, at the other's house) did at least coach me through treating professionals as professionals (though she's also the source of the 'wheedling me' thing earlier).

She deserves the time off, the money she makes (from the served family) and any other money she makes elsewhere. The more we value the nanny's service, the more we'll set the bar higher for people valuing motherhood, childcare, part-time work, work outside an office/designated work space, etc., etc.

I think that was what Maria Wood was getting at, yes? Which also means more thinking on my part - where *else* am I not dealing fair, playing the culture in my favor in one spot, playing against culture in another? Where can I apply some logic and insight to work through more of what keeps us from addressing those core issues of women's work, motherhood, and the real (and economically real) value of rearing the next generation? I'm not sure where to start, and I suspect that 'starting with teaching my kids better' is a cop-out (even if that's my goal, to raise them to expect different and better, stopping there is a self-limiting thing - I need a critical mass or I'll just be raising my kids to have their expectations violated). Where do I put my leverage? Where does the social action start? How do I elevate the nanny's work to the status I think it deserves - WITHOUT making it so expensive I cannot afford it? Is it even possible in a capitalist system to have value for which we don't pay? Is it just in the professionalism and service, as it would be for a minister?

And as for the 'ownership' issue with the nanny, now that my brain is starting to revive... there's a relationship involved that is human, not professional. This is where the 'stealing the nanny' comes in, I think... it's personal, it's a relationship, it's like stealing a boyfriend. There's an implied committment to the love between the kids and the nanny. Likely, a mom's reactions in this case have at least some similarity to how one would feel if we were saying 'my child's best friend' instead of 'nanny' - It reads as 'My child's best friend told us she was going on vacation, but instead went on vacation with another friend.' There's also an underlying assumption (maybe) that the nanny has a personal relationship with MY kids, and a financial relationship with the other family. It tastes of 'putting something less than love over love' in reaction, doesn't it? I certainly expected my care providers to love my kids. LOVE them. It puzzles me that the part-day help I had for months (college age) didn't want to give me her home address for me to send her christmas pictures of the kids. I *KNOW* it was a professional relationship, I *KNOW* she's got a life, I *KNOW* this was just a job to her. But she also loved the kids, yes? She had fun with them, yes? Why wouldn't she want to be part of their lives forever? (sniff, sniff!) And before anyone smacks me on the wrist with a wet noodle on that one, I'm not being entirely serious. But it was kind of a shock when she was utterly uninterested in annual christmas photos for the next 18 years. Not because she really should have wanted that connection to be eternal, but more because somehow I'd expected that all relationships of affection with my children SHOULD be eternal.

And really, should they? No. They should have the opportunity to experience all the range, not just the idealized end. They're lovable, and still, someone will not love them as much as I do. They'll have friendships that end, and relationships that end, from now to the end of their lives. But I wasn't expecting it yet, I guess. It was a little bit of a speed bump in my assumptions, jarred me a bit. But I'd also already been through this with some friends from school with the eldest two, so... so I shook myself off. Not my lookout, and it WAS just a job for her. Pleasant, workable, full of good stuff, and just a job. I suspect there's some of that conflict here, too - the 'it isn't JUST a job, is it?' - it feels like disloyalty, no? At least, that's how the pain reads, a bit. The 'stealing' is definitely on the 'she stole my daughter's boyfriend' level, maybe?

So, perhaps several problems all at once, confounding the whole picture (as is so often the case):

1) Professional rules and procedures need to be identified and followed.

2) Personal loyalty/affection/relationship needs to be separated out of the process of decision-making (and of assessing decisions).

3) Valuing the service may play a role here - though valuing at the economic level, not the personal level (which might already be too tight in).

Does that make any sense of the mess? Usually, Moxie's questions come in from regular people, like the commenters. And we're all landing on one side of the line. But maybe there are two sides of the line, here - understanding the emotional relationship involved may also shed some light on the visceral emotional reaction.

(My brain clearly is slow today. and I'm spending way too much time here, too. And even going back to work feels like I'm just trying to dodge thinking. And I'm wondering also where the holes are in what I'm thinking this time... )

[hedra]

Reference for the soap comment above: http://www.askmoxie.org/askmoxie/2007/11/excellent.html

[rudyinparis]

Hedra slides into home plate. {cough} Finally.

Hedra rules!

I've been musing on this throughout the day and for me it really illustrates how our emotions get tangled up in certain types of services... funerals, weddings, childcare, our public schoolteachers, sex workers... There's a connection here. And it's so hard to tease the emotion out of the transaction, as it were. My revised advice for Alexis is to jettison what it sounds like was in the past a friendship with this other Mom. That's done, it appears. And then draw up a clear contract with her nanny. If she wants her nanny on call 24/7 I suspect a hefty wage increase should be expected. Clearly, Alexis needs to distance herself emotionally from the details and focus instead on the situation as a business transaction, no more, no less.

Also, In Alexis's defense--she did acknowledge she needed advice and even stated that she wasn't sure if her expectations were reasonable or not. This shows some strong self-awareness, for which she should be applauded, I think.

[hedra]

Heh. I think I just inadvertantly illustrated my full process there with my kids... THIS, no, wait, that was wrong, THAT... oh, crud, that was even worse! ACK! THE OTHER! SHOOT. Wait. Hmm. *INSPIRATION* Thud, whoops, dropped that one, but wait, if I spin it this way, and look at it from that angle... hey, look, I think... yeah, this works! Phew! Next?

(I'd stick my tongue out in your general direction if I knew which direction that was. So, um, Nyah.)

And I agree - Alexis had the self-awareness all along to wonder if she was missing something in the process, not seeing it clearly, and maybe not having the handle on it she thought she needed to make it work. So, definitely, serious applause on that one.

[Melba]

I was gearing up to right a big long post with my opinion on the matter but I think that alot of the pp's have said everything I'd have said. So I'll just summarize:

1. Nanny has done nothing wrong with the exception of asking the husband to come home, UNLESS she was there past her scheduled time.

2. She can babysit or work for whoever she wants whenever she's not on the clock for Alexis.

3. The two days off would be to me two days out of her allotted vacation time and whether she uses that time to work for someone else or not is irrelevant.

4. I don't actually think it's rude or inappropriate for one person to regularly book another person's full time nanny. If the nanny wants to work all the extra hours, why not? It's a free market. I wouldn't think twice about booking whatever nanny I wanted to book, whether she's full time with someone else or not. I'd even go so far as to steal someone's nanny if I really liked her (gasp!). Maybe read my last comment from yesterday's post to see my reasoning here... it's a competitive marketplace around here and s/he who pays more / is better to work for gets the best employees. Nannys included.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I believe that child care providers shoudln't have any expectations on them that are any higher than any other person you might employ. Expect the nanny to be a good provider for your children and to keep them safe and happy. They don't owe you any more than that. Would we be having this conversation if the neighbor was regularly booking Alexis' lawn maintenance guy or her hairdresser? I don't think so.

Ok so I guess that was long after all!

[hedra]

@Melba, that plays a bit to the separating the emotional process out, too. If we treat the business transaction as if it were a personal relationship primarily, then we end up devaluing it as an economic role. Maybe that's not the way it *should* be, but it is the 'caring professions' that are dumped to the lower rungs on the pay scale. And it's because there are assumed to be INTRINSIC rewards to those jobs, that then will compensate for the lack of pay.

And as my mom says (man, I quote her a lot!), 'in work, there are no intrinsic rewards' - by which she means not that there really is no pleasure in work, but that the idea of REWARD should not be intrinsic. The nurse works hard, the fact that it makes her feel good should not make it worth less than the engineer with a comparable level of education and experience gets. But if there's a social or interpersonal 'payoff' we subsitute that for part of the 'paycheck'.

If we separate the emotional process from the economic one, then we have to just work the economic angle. Solo. Which means that there are no social rules about stealing someone else's nanny, beyond what there are for stealing anyone's employee - if you have a non-compete agreement, then you're in legal trouble. And yeah, people tend to think of fishing for employees from a competitor as a bit underhanded, and at the same time, not entirely dispicable - it's in the employee's best interest to have competition for them, too - (counter-offer, anyone?).

I would definitely hesitate to 'steal someone's nanny' the same way I'd hesitate to steal someone's database designer. Though I definitely would post my job where everyone could see it, and if that database designer was interested... well, their choice to interview, and I won't feel guilty that they're leaving another job where they're highly valued.

And that (speaking in IT terms) is also another player here - Nannies are in the 'irreplacable' category. They're the functional equivalent of the IT King Geek, who knows the innards of all the systems (can get the kids to nap and eat green veggies), who everyone respects and worships and without whom we may secretly think the entire system would crash (or at least there'd be a risk in there...). And in the IT world, if you have one of those King Geeks, the very best thing you can do for your company is to FIRE THEM. Because *too* essential is also bad for the dynamic of the entire company (family). Not that I'm saying 'fire the beloved nanny' at all - just be aware that the power we emotionally invest in the nanny has a down side, too.

And I'll go back to Soranus, my favorite 2nd Century AD Greek OB/GYN - who said that if you hire a secondary caregiver for your child, you should hire THREE of them, and cycle them. It won't hurt the child, it gives the caregivers a break from dealing with your child, and it prevents an imbalance of social power within the family. Not that I think we can go hire three ourselves, but it is worth considering the question. If we're in love with what the Nanny represents, it plays some havoc with our own emotional state. If the nanny is irreplacable, where do we end up ourselves? And how do we evaluate their economic value appropriately if we're enmeshing it with the emotional value?

Anyway, I have to go - time to relieve the nanny!

[Alex]

I'm with everyone else on the thought that a nanny should have defined work hours and vacations, with clear expectations about how long in advance the latter have to be scheduled, and should be able to spend her time outside work as she pleases, including at other jobs, be they working with children or not.

Beyond this, I'm not entirely clear about how things worked when Alexis' neighbor was relying on Alexis' nanny for drop-off childcare. Was the nanny paid extra for this and consulted about the setup (i.e. did she get to say yes or no, either to flexible ongoing drop offs being allowed or to each individual drop off), or was this just added to her responsibilities (with or, worse, without extra pay)? Because if the latter it seems to me that the boundaries were already problematic, and not in a way that was in the nanny's favor. From there (oh, by the way, here's an extra kid you need to care for) to the nanny pushing boundaries ("I need you to come home early today so I can get to my second job.") seems like a short trip and one that, honestly, Alexis initiated.

So -- I'd say, clear boundaries on both sides are important, and the nanny's time outside work is her own business, and if Alexis wants to hire her for extra hours she should do so. This could be on a first-come, first-served basis, but truthfully, if the neighbor pays better or even if the nanny just needs not to spend more than X hours per week caring for Alexis' kids, but is OK spending some time caring for someone else's kids, well, that's certainly her prerogative.

[Shelley]

In most professions there are some restrictions on freelance work if it interferes at all with the full time work. Usually the terms of freelance are negotiated during the job offer. Any breach of the terms can result in termination. Why should a nanny expect anything different? I think Alexis should schedule a meeting with her nanny to discuss/negotiate the expectations of the job and what is currently happening. And then agree on the terms of her freelance work.

Despite the personal nature of childcare, I think it is best to treat the relationship as a business relationship - which it is. Both the parents and the nanny should act responsibly and respectfully. It is not clear from Alexis' email whether the nanny is expected to work on weekends within the terms of her contract. That might be a good place to start.

also...

pbs c

posted earlier was the insightful comment of my 4 year old niece, writing while her mommy, Marie, was away from the keyboard. I guess she just wanted to be part of this discussion and add her 2 cents. he he... blogging already...

[Evany]

(I swear I triple-checked to make sure this didn't double-post, but no guarantees.)

Moxie, I almost always, like 98 times out of 100, think your advice is spot on. The two or three times I've disagreed with your angle, you've been talking about nannies, daycare providers, other paid caregivers.

Among my various jobs, I'm a part-time nanny for an awesome family I've been with for a while. Not being a mom, I know I'm missing out on seeing a lot of aspects of the mom-nanny relationship, but then on the other hand, I feel like I have a pretty clear view of just how complex (and often conflicted) many moms feel about their nanny, their relationship with their nanny, and often even having a nanny to begin with.

In my other job, I work for a woman who works from home, and who has a full-time nanny-housekeeper to help take care of her four (little) kids. So I feel like I sort of see both sides of this issue.

Here's my thing, and why I really disagree with your conclusions:

In what other profession would a boss think it was acceptable to demand that her employee took on no outside work?

Okay, sure, there are people who have that in their contract. But you know what I'm saying. The day my office-job boss tells me I can't freelance on the side is the day I walk out with no notice. That's just crazy to me.

The mom in this question sounds to me like she has a kind of implicit belief that her nanny should relate to her employer-family as though it were her actual family: drop everything when they need you, put them first, etc. (I don't think this is actually that uncommon of a feeling. Nannies&moms=it's complicated. Throw money in to further muddy the waters, and oh lord. A real humdinger.)

But in reality, her nanny is an employee. If she's unhappy with her work performance, talk to her or let her go, but I think thought process right now is just not very helpful: she doesn't let the nanny hang out with her kid as a favor, and the nanny doesn't do it out of the kindness of her heart, because her kid is just that adorable. (Although I'm sure he's plenty adorable.) It's a business transaction, and particularly when you think of how much (=little) most nannies make, I'm not even a little surprised this one is taking the opportunity to make some extra cash on the side.

(As an aside, my office-job family are great, but I think that mom is really conflicted about having a nanny: Over the time I've been with them, their original nanny gave notice to go work for a family that could pay her more. And this was with plenty of notice and after several years together. You would have thought that the woman had stabbed the mom in the back, though, from her weeks of how-dare-she-betray-me response. As a caregiver, I found it really awkward to be around.)

Anyway, I don't think the mom would be this upset if her favorite take out place's chef was doing catering on the weekends, or if her accountant was taking home work from other people to make a little extra cash, so long as her business agreements with them were upheld. I think she's specifically upset because she has complex feelings about having a nanny, and these events neatly dovetail into that stuff. So I respectfully submit that this is only very minorly about her nanny, or what her nanny may or may not be doing wrong, and mostly about the mom's own feelings about outsourcing some of her childcare. That's where I would suggest she look first.

[Jutta]

The only problem I see is that Alexis didn't set some parameters right away. I am a nanny and usually do not want to work for people who know each other at the same time. It's just not a safe environment for me. One may chat with the other, third party conversations and such, and I end up in an uncomfortable situation.
My loyalty always is to the client with whom I already work. However, I do need extra money at times, and so if I have the chance to work with another client during my uncommitted time slots, I take it. I see absolutely no reason to check with anybody about it.
As a nanny, I am self employed. As an independent contractor, I have the right to accept more clients at any time, just as a lawyer can do the same. Yes, there are the feelings of the children involved. And as I said I usually avoid this kind of situation. However, if I need extra money, and the initial client can't/won't give me extra hours, then I am free to work elsewhere. The days of servitude and slavery are over. I am not owned by anybody and make my own choices about where and when to work.

[Karen]

Here I am, sneaking in in the morning hours a day late to offer my contrarian perspective.

My neighbor has a nanny, who I'm going to call C.P. Our kids are still young, but are really getting to be good friends. Neighbor and I are friendly, but not friends. I would love it if I could drop my son off at times, pay C.P. extra, and the boys could entertain each other. Ooh, and if she could just come over to our house and help out for a few hours after she wraps up with them - so easy all around. But I would never, ever ask her. Maybe it is a condition of the "free market" wherever one is, but I know my neighbor worked hard to find and vet C.P. and I wouldn't do anything on the slippery slope of "nanny stealing". For this reason, even if C.P. came to me and said, "I'm looking for extra work", I would still get my neighbor involved to make it clear that I would not jeopardize the relationship, even this professional one, that she has developed with C.P. So if that is a boundary that Alexis shares, (but maybe let it slide due to friendship/friendliness?) I understand why she feels her neighbor has taken/is taking advantage of her. And why she's angry/hurt that her nanny would be party to it.

That said, what's done is done. The line's been crossed, and neighbor and nanny are undeniably free to continue their relationship as they wish.

But how to deal with 1) the jeopardized professional relationship (as evidenced by calling the husband home and, maybe, by late-notice time off) and 2) the bad feelings?

Since I'm seeing this through my own biases and experiences, and I'm a doormat, I do have some questions about how much of doormat Alexis is. But in a kind, concerned fashion, of course. Often when one is a doormat, it's hard to change the dynamic of a situation, and something like trying to add or enforce a contract after the fact can make a situation worse. But I do think that it would help if Alexis wrote up a list of reasonable expectations for her employee, focusing on her family's needs and what she is paying for - and on the facts and the future, not what is "fair" or "right" - even if she doesn't present this to her nanny right away. Input and perspective from husband on this would be a big plus. While having something on paper would likely help her evaluate #1, ideally, it would also help with #2, as it seems like doing anything to deescalate the bad feelings is critical for maintaining the (professional) relationship with her nanny, if that is what she wants.

As for the neighbor - I'm completely with Moxie on that one. To humor myself, I would start doing a little "Jerry"/"Newman" feud thing to myself whenever her name came up. Though knowing your limits and deescalating bad feelings is probably important there too, if your sons are still friends.

[m]

I agree with everyone about the nanny being allowed to do what she wants in her off-time as long as it doesn't negatively affect her job.

My guess is that there is more going on in the relationship between Alexis and her ex-neighbour and that the nanny situation is a sort of last straw and what Alexis is focussing on.

[Tsubaki]

In some jobs, employees are prohibited from taking on any freelance/additional work. In my experience, these are usually government jobs with excellent benefits. I echo what has been said about a major pay raise if the nanny is expected to be on call 24/7--and add that if those are the employment conditions, I hope the nanny is also getting a big fat benefits package with health insurance, 401k, etc.

[Nutmeg]

I agree with most of the commenters in that I don't see a huge problem (except from the social norms breaking and with the nanny calling dad to come from work)

However, I want to say there are MANY professions where you are contractually not permitted to work anywhere else. My husband and I are both in such professions and they are wildly different from eachother.

It doesn't seem that the profession of child care is one of those professions normally, and that is precisely the guidance that Alexis needed I think. I don't think she's being overly demanding or has unrealistic expectations. She doesn't know for sure what her expectations should be.

Thanks to Moxie's commenters now she does!!!

I'd still be ticked if it were me!

[hush]

@Karen, great comment. I'm in total agreement with you in wondering about how much of doormat Alexis is.

Do you suppose there was a little voice of doubt in Alexis' head saying "uh-oh" when she spoke those fateful words inviting her friend to share her nanny, and to continue to use her home as drop-in care? Was she in denial as she assured herself that it would all just be temporary and that both families were done having kids?

The problem arose because Alexis was just trying to be "nice," and chose to ignore certain universal truths about human nature in competition.

Sometimes we can't help ourselves when we have that "disease to please." Frankly, (while trying to be as caring as possible) - this was all FORESEEABLE. If you have a fabulous nanny, you'd best treat her right, or she'll be snatched up by someone else, caveman style.

Just like you wouldn't let your neighbor borrow your husband without very serious thought & consideration of the many possible consequences (did anyone else catch the premiere of "Swingtown"?), the harsh reality is that you should proceed with extreme caution in sharing your babysitters, because you're opening a door there that can't always be closed.