PQotW: Despondent or jaded?

I thought I'd start a new feature, the Philosophical Question of the Week. I'll give it its own little sidebar, so it'll go up and then you can click through to see it even when it disappears off the front page.

This week's question is:

Which is worse,

a) when your first child is going through a horrible phase (usually sleep-related) and you feel hopeless and despondent thinking it'll never end, or

b) when your second or subsequent child is going through the same kind of horrible phase and you have absolutely no sympathy because you know it's only a phase and you have no patience and just wish the kid would move through it already?

Comments

[victoria]

I'd have to say the subsequent kid! I'm on my third 3 year old, and I have just about had it with the age! Although, having 2 ahead of her, I know the stubborn tantruming just changes into the next undesirable behaviour, so I'm thinking that the ignorance with the first was bliss!

[Jill in Atlanta]

With (a) I feel badly for me, with (b) I feel badly for my child.

[amberjee]

i'm only on the first child, and only beginning to learn that horrid stages DO end. eventually. our meals are no longer being thrown on the floor (hurrah) and we are getting sleep most nights (weeeeeeeeee)!

[hush]

So (a) = hopelessness, and (b) = impatience? A is worse, and also plays upon fears of the unknown. But I wouldn't really know yet because I only have one child, and am not having nearly enough sexytime to conceive any more!

[Linda]

Definatly (a) is worse because I beat myself up over not being able to 'fix' it.
With my subsequent two children, I could just be present with them and hold them and love them through it with my confidence that it would end, knowing that my only job was to move through it with them - not fix it.

[lisa]

I have just one, so I can't comment on #2, but right now we are in the midst of the mother of sleep regressions. He's 2 and suddenly WILL. NOT. GO. TO. SLEEP. ALONE. He's always been an champion sleeper, but now it takes 90 minutes to get him to sleep. And then he usually wakes up around 2. I'm sure many people deal with this and worse, but having him go from sleeping a solid 11 hours a night to this has unraveled all of us.

Something set him off, and I have no idea what it is. Whether he had a nightmare, is suddenly afraid of the dark or being alone, he can't articulate it. He just doesn't have words for it. And there's no CIO this time, apparently. He will pass out standing up, then jerk awake & start all over again.

And he only ever wants Daddy. Even when he doesn't.

So I'm gonna say that, for me, #1 is worse.

[hedra]

Definitely the jaded stage for me. I remember the endlessness of the first go around, the feeling that it would never ever change, it was going to be this very exact hell for eternity. It sucked.

But I get more upset when I'm in the 'okay, I *know* this isn't the way you're going to end up, I *know* you will grow the skills and function, and I *NEED* you to get there NOW. I'm DONE. Done done done done done. DONE!' state of being.

It reminds me of a class I took in college, called 'Crowds, Cults, and Revolutions' - taught by a major international researcher of human behavior in disaster conditions. One of the things he said over and over was that for a revolution to occur, one has to provide hope that things will get better, and then make it appear that the hope is gone. If there is no hope, there is no revolution. Period. It just doesn't happen. If you give them misery, and then give them hope, it STILL doesn't happen - they have hope, things might still get better. It is only when the hope seems LOST again that the revolution happens, that people get up in arms, that they storm the halls of government and riot in the streets.

Maybe not exactly 1:1 there, but ... well, I have a more visceral reaction to feeling my grip on hope slip a little than I do when I don't think I have any hope to start with.

[hedra]

(though honestly, if you'd have asked me before, it would have been the other way around... impatience? I can handle that! Maybe it is just that whatever struggle I'm having right now is the hard one, and whatever I've already gotten past is easy by comparison, since I've already handled that!)

[Moxie]

Holy crap, Hedra--that "hope/no hope-->revolution" equation describes the process of getting to the decision to get a divorce to a T. At least in my experience.

[pnuts mama]

hedra- you should totally be an adviser for obama...

i only have the one so far (but jesus am i ready for bean to sprout already- god could this heat *be* any more oppressive?) but i am thinking that i'd prefer the knowledge for #2 that at least the bs would end eventually, vs. how everything with #1 is a question mark...like when i was going to have pnut- i was pretty scared of labor/delivery- this time around i am not, really since i have an idea of what it was like the last time. i am reeeeeally not looking forward to the newborn phase (b/c of last time) *but* i do have the relief of knowing that eventually the bad stuff will end, which i'm hoping will allow me to enjoy the good stuff a lot more.

although i can totally see the side of being impatient for #2 to get on with it already...

[Cathy]

Ah! I feel like we're only just starting part 2 now. Step-Son is 14, DD is 5. SS was 7 when we got married, 4 when we started dating (so years 0-3 for DD were my first times through that age)

Seeing familiar stages with DD is kind of nice (so far) - it means that either (a)the stage with SS was not my fault or (b)my parenting is reasonably consistent with step and bio kids. And I'm OK with either.

The baby is 6 months old. I'll report back in 5 years to say how I feel about seeing the phases for a 3rd time.

[Geeks]

With the first I felt guilty because I didn't know what I should do. With the second I know what I should do, but I can't because I'm dealing with number 1 (who is three years old --ouch) and so I feel guilty again!

I'd say the second scenario is worse because I don't have the same empathy/sympathy since I know "it's just a phase." Whereas with number 1 it seemed everything he did and felt was unique, now I know they're just following a computer program given to them at birth! :)

Though I do love knowing it is all a phase and the sleep problems and my one-year-old's frustrations are very, very temporary!!
so yes, a) worse for me
b)worse for baby

[michelle]

"A" is worse. Hands down. The anxiety, and the self-questioning that goes on is a nightmare (ex: is my baby waking every two hours because I have failed to do some crucial sleep training, or is he hungry?).

Funny, I was talking to a new Mom yesterday who mentioned several on-line sources that she consults daily. I thought, "isn't that funny? I used to get all those emails, too. Now, I could give a hoot whether Dr. Sears thinks everybody ought to breastfeed/sleep in one bed/whatever." But I remember a time where I read everything I could get my hands on.

Now I just check out the one or two resources I like, I am happier, and my youngest child is just fine.

[hedra]

@Moxie, hey, you're human! Just like all them other humans. I hope that helps you at least understand why it may have seemed impossible to take action at phases one and two. Because really, human nature doesn't move to action until phase three - over and over, this guy (and his Disaster Research Center) proved the case. No hope, no action. No hope, then hope, maybe some additional effort and engagement, but no real revolutionary change. But hope/no-hope=>revolution, definitely.

It's the very rare person who can really overturn their systems and clear the slate without that final experience (and often they've just had the same experience but in a different way). Before that point, everything is still holding onto the same system and trying to make that work.

Huh. You know, I wonder if this plays some role in my parenting transitions, too. Actually, it fits nicely with the issues I had with G's feeding (on my blog today) - I had no hope, got hope, then gradually lost hope, and THEN I completely revised my approach to him and food. Only at that point could I really dig all the way down to my deepest expectations and uproot them (or at least prune them back to my side of the line). Hmm. Good catch!

[MorahLaura]

I have to go with (b) on this one. The "ignorance is bliss" factor plays a large part. We're in the middle of an "I won't sleep without Mommy!!" phase with our 2nd daughter (14.5 months old) that feels like it's been going on for about 3 months now. I'm also pregnant. I need sleep so badly and I'm just not getting any and I know it's a phase but would you please just GET OVER IT?!?!?

Whereas with #1 we at least felt like we could seek solutions and not just have to live through it. We tried everything and even though nothing worked, it at least felt like we were trying to be proactive. Or try to plan ways that we *could* live with it forever (e.g. "Maybe if we put a sleeping bag for her on the floor next to our bed...")(not knowing that nothing is forever with a 1.5 yr old).

Now we know that really nothing we try will work and I just have to wait it out and PRAY that when the baby comes, Gd-willing, and #2 is 17 months old, that she is DONE with this phase. Thankfully the oldest, now 5.5, has turned into a really excellent sleeper, barring the occasional bad dream.

[Laura]

Maybe it was because my second child was SO MUCH EASIER than my first child but the despondent stage was FAR worse for us, it also lasted about 3.5 years so that didn't help and we also know it might not be over with her as far as sleeplessness and phases go (she has autism). When my second child goes through phases, I think I'm just grateful it's a stage and not a way of being as far as sleeplessness, crying, etc, go.

When my second born cries though, we do have far less patience than we did with my first born. Now, we're along the lines of "would you get over it already?" which is probably not ideal. I think we're tired of all the crying. Or maybe just tired. ;) Either way, they are deeply loved so I don't think that our impatience is what will put them in therapy later.

[Melanie]

(a) I felt so sorry for my poor baby ... so I would let him sleep with me (yes, so I could get some sleep myself!) [Tantrums were another thing though - I let him cry and drum his feet for those and - one thing I did listen to wiser women than myself - thank heavens!]
(b) I am letting my second cry it out at night - but do feel guilty though because with my first, I would NEVER have done that! I am a lot more impatient with my second - another thing I do feel guilty for - but having a 4 year old, a 2 year old (with a speech delay) AND one on the way in July and a full time out of the home job ... well, I don't have a lot of patience laying around at this time. I hope I can afford therapy later ... for them or for me .. not sure which of us will need it! LOL!

[eta]

@lisa, with the 2yrold sleep-fighting: I visit often, comment not, but I went through what sounds like a similar fiasco with my now-4yrold son when he was 2.5. It was horrible. My friend with 4 kids gave me an it-worked-for-me-story, and if you all don't mind, I'll pass it along again. I told him the doctor (he already loved authority figures) said we should try some "No Cry Sleepy Cream" lotion. I dug up a bottle of pleasantly smelly lotion and rubbed it on his hands, and said the doctor said that it would help him sleep. I did not bring up nightmares, because though I thought that was part of the problem, he hadn't said so, and I did not want to introduce it if I was wrong. I did say it would help him have happy thoughts, and tried to talk about what was happy (I am sure you've done that part). I also fooled around with smelling his hands and then pretending to fall asleep for a second, which made him laugh and helped loosen us all up. I don't know if it was the smell, the distraction, or the "medicine talisman" aspect (G-d help us), but we used that for about a year. Then it sort of faded away--thank heavens, because he's starting to read now and he'd see right through the packaging. My friend didn't use the doctor angle, just used "monster spray" and "nightmare lotion" but they worked for her. I don't know if you can use any of this, but I hope something here, if not useful, might inspire something that is. But in any case, it will pass, no matter what you do, I imagine. The cream thing might have just helped me rather than my son, as at least it gave me something to do while I was waiting for that particular craziness to pass. Good luck. And to Moxie and the regular posters and readers, I hope this wasn't too long or too OT. Thanks for being such a great place to visit.

[paola]

Definitely (B). My number one was (is) a bit of a freak. He started sleeping 12 hour nights at 10 weeks and has never looked back. Many people told me 'oh, you'll see he'll start waking at 4 months, 6 months 9 months', but he just rode those phases thru and I didn't know what teething was as he simply opened his mouth one day and he had a mouth full of teeth. We (I) was truly blessed and even now at 3.5 when he is at home from kindergarten still sleeps 14-15 hours a day.

Poor Number two. She was (A) and (B) rolled into one. I guess I was only convinced that these phases would end at the end of the first year as I had nothing to compare her to.

[sudru]

Timely post for me. My 10 month is just miserable and I am VERY MISERABLE. Many times I have thought that I'm just not cut out for this motherhood thing because I can't seem to understand him. His mood swings are incredible & he can't sleep. And then I think how cruel for him not to be able to rest, his brain won't let him. I keep telling myself it's a phase, he'll get better. He will, right?

[Charisse]

Wow paola, Mouse didn't sleep 15 hours a day as a newborn! Now that she's 4, 10 1/2 seems to do her plenty, with an extra hour on Saturday.

On the main question, only one kid here but I'm guessing (b) would be worse for me--I really struggle to have patience with the last 20% of anything--once I can see the end, I want it right. now.

Which makes me often a lousy support for Mouse, who is (imagine!) similar. "Yes, sweet love, I totally understand that you want to swim by yourself like Older Friend, right this very day. I know you can tell you're getting there, and I know you've been working on it for a long time too. It's hard--learning big things is lots of work, almost always. I'm really proud of how you keep at it. The practice that you're doing is exactly the right thing to help you get all the way there, and it just takes as long as it takes. It is definitely working--you've learned a lot since your birthday, remember? All you need to do is keep on learning, which I see you do every time you go to the pool. You will get there, you are doing all the right things to get there, I'm so proud of how hard you are working and how you cooperate with your teacher." ....no? still pissed? Will this take you until 30+ like your mama? Not to hijack, but anybody else have this sort of kid and have a good way to help?

[Charisse]

oh & @sudru, yes, he will! he will probably feel a whole lot better once he gets another skill or two under his belt (and maybe a tooth through?). Hang in there!

[heather]

I only have one thusfar but I know already that (a) is worse. "Knowledge is power" -- definitely! Now that I know about the sleep regressions/growth spurts/etc and I know they aren't something I caused and I know there's an end in sight and I know we can survive them! Whew.

[Joceline]

I only have one at the moment, but so far with this second pregnancy, I am learning that (a) is worse for me (at least as far as pregnancy is concerned. I am SO MUCH more laid back about the crappy aspects of the first trimester. Yeah, I'm looking forward to the day when the nausea and extreme exhaustion go away, but I know they will, and so I feel more able to sit back and relax. Maybe my answer will change once #2 is born and crying and not sleeping, etc.

[Lisa F.]

@Charisse, don't think I can help you cause you're ahead of me & helped me w/the almost 3 stage, but yes, I do have a similar child. we just had Total Meltdown, because at 2 years 11 months, he couldn't write his name perfectly on the father's day card for his gramp. he gets totally frustrated even though he's made perfectly good letters at the beginning & scribbles everything out in a fit of anger. I talked him through about how he couldn't walk at first, blah blah, effing meltdown from hell, total catch 22, no solution. sigh.

As mom of an only, I can't totally respond to the question, but I know that having another child would be awful for me. I'm too challenged now, and can't imagine another one to deal with as well as the sibling dynamic would probably bring up boatloads of crap for me. And while I'm getting better at realizing it's just a stage, and not either a) crappy parenting on my part, or b) something horribly wrong w/my child, I still feel angry & despondent, AND impatient.

@Lisa, 2 was hard for us w/loads of sleep challenges, but sleep has always been a struggle for us. Is yours getting 2 year molars? I know that was *some* of our problem. good luck.

[Shandra]

I think it depends on the person.

Not that helpful I know, but I guess I haven't really felt all that much a). So b) sounds worse.

I guess this is in part because although my son doesn't sleep that well (2.9, has slept through the night ONCE in his ENTIRE LIFE so far, unless you count making it to 4 am which I now have to do although he still gets up at 12:30 about 4 times a week too) sleep is not really "my thing." I never really had the idea that he would sleep well and have not been disappointed. (I know some will make this a cause and effect thing but I tend to think it's more genetic: I remember being up at night as a child a lot!)

[Charisse]

@Lisa F, that's still reassuring--and that's *exactly* how Mouse would have acted at 2.11. The good news for the future is that by 4, the mother effing shrieking is mostly reduced to mother effing whining/sulking which, while annoying and sometimes heartbreaking (she can very specifically express how frustrated she feels about her imperfect skills), is somewhat kinder to your eardrums.

Good luck & stay in touch. :)

[Tami]

The clear answer for me is "A." I have three kids, ages 1, 2, and 4. With my first the hopelessness of will-this-ever-end was overwhelming for me. I've become much better at working on patience (or the appearance of patience) and staying in the moment since having more kids, but I still have a lot of trouble dealing with gripping fear of the unknown when my oldest goes through a new trying phase. With "B" I feel like I can formulate a game plan to get through the problem. I know there is an end in sight regardless. I just need to think of ways I can make the problem seem less annoying to me (even if it is just a different way of viewing the problem in my head), and possibly ways to help my child draw closer to behavior I consider acceptable (but that's only if it seems less annoying to me to "help" than to just "wait"--I do whichever makes Mommy more sane). With "A" I feel like I can't see the forest for the trees and it is just miserable. Even if with my oldest I manage to convince myself some annoying behavior is just a phase, that will pass, I find myself acting more like "B" in that I get frustrated easier and just keep wishing the time away. So again, I'm a lot worse with the unknown than with the known.

[Amy]

I agree with everyone who said A is worse. The anxiety of thinking with #1, "OMG, this is his *personality*!!!" when he had those bad phases was much worse than it is with #3. Then again, I really do think that a lot of #3's issues ARE part of his personality... but I'm even okay with that b/c having been through the toddler/preschool years with his older siblings I know that even a difficult child is a joy to watch grow. (But you'll have to remind me I said that if he doesn't go back to sleeping through the night soon!!!)

[Hilary]

Definitely the first. I was just thinking about this today. It is so refreshing to know that it isn't some permanent behavioral flaw in your child, but just annoying but transient behavior.

[Kate]

Oh, a) was much worse for me. And is. I always feel out of my depth with #1 and rarely with #2.

b) can be frustrating (DS is just over 2, so is in a big stage of throwing toys, etc. I have no idea how I dealt with it the first time, but DD is turning 4 next week and no longer does it--usually--so clearly it passed), but more often I am finding it kind of, dare I say, amusing.

My son clearly has been watching EVERY SINGLE MOVE my daughter has made since his birth. So he throws temper tantrums the same way, like he's following her script and stage directions. He's been doing that for six months, easy, and the first time he did it I just burst out laughing. Clearly not the reaction he was trying to evoke. Oh well. But the difference is that I don't feel compelled to "fix" it for him--kids can be irrational!--and I am much more at peace with it, and him, than I ever was with her.

[hedra]

The splits are interesting - I think I function better with the seat-of-the-pants/roll-with-it side (the first part). I can let go of things better if I don't KNOW what to expect. If I have a clear picture of what to expect (this phase ends, I know they won't be like this forever), then I have trouble letting go of the end point, wanting to be there NOW.

I think for a lot of people, rolling with the unknown is more challenging than dealing with the scheduled expectations. Back to that personality type thing, though - I'm a P in the Myers Briggs personality survey, and deal much more functionally with the idea of rolling with it.

Not that they don't both suck at times, but I cope better with that side of things. I'm also more comfortable saying 'I have no idea how to handle this issue' and then trying to figure out than if I *think* I know a good bit about how to handle it (I stop looking as closely to see if it is working, working now, working for this child, etc.). It just takes me longer to figure out that I'm beating myself on the head with a hammer and that the whole problem really is a different issue entirely (or whatever). Deal well with intrepid explorer zone, deal poorly with the existing maps, I guess.

[Kimberly C]

I only have one, so I will say that (a) is worse.

Holding a 2 week old newborn that cries for three hours every night and wondering if this will be your LIFE for the rest of your life- HELL...

Wondering if the whining is ever going to stop= Hell (and current, if you really want to know)

[kate]

Ohm the first definitely. The helplessness, and the thought that the child will never improve and is doomed to be a social outcast is devastating. So mnuch nicer the second time round when you can just laugh it off

[magpie]

Hmm. I have no patience and just wish she would get over it...and she's the first and only child.

[AmyinMotown]

I'd say the despondent stage. My experience with #2 has been much what pnuts mama hopes hers is (so I hope hers will be like this!)--I know everything passes so I can be lots more calm and tke things in stride more. Like right now I am feeling SO OVERWHELMED with the demands of these two wonderful little people and like there is no time to do anything and I will NEVER catch up. But I know I will--soon he'll be more independent and so will she and I might even be able to count on an hour or so to think and accomplish things EVERY DAY. And I will sleep more soon. AND I might even miss these days.

[Alex]

Oh dear, I see I'm late to the party. I hope someone will see this. I'm working on #1 until we get to the teenage years at which point my experience with my stepchildren bounces him to #3. So just so I'm clear on this you're all saying that it doesn't matter what I do (er, not 100%, but at least at the -- rather large -- margins)? Because I struggle over stuff like whether I should, oh just for example, open the door to the closet where the dogfood is kept, reminding DS (17 months) that the closet is there BUT THAT HE IS NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY IN IT THOUGH HE DESPERATELY WANTS TO!!! or sneak around in such a way that he doesn't see me open it (which is also annoying as it either means I have to swoop at an opportune moment that pops up unpredictably (when he is distracted) or actually confine him in another location (which, duh, upsets him)). So what you're saying is that taking the above, and half a dozen other examples of similar opportunities to start to teach DS household rules, as an example, no matter what I do, until he is older it won't happen and when he is ready, it will (which I have already thought to wonder about). Or I am misinterpreting this?

[nikeshopking.com]

supplier nike shoes from http://www.nikeshopking.com

[make money online]

It's almost the same but I think b is worst. Being a parent means being patient and knows their responsibility.

[legitimate paid surveys]

B is worst. I think it's a nice thing for all people having this thought.

[inolfrichie]

buy buy gucci wallets with low price buy gucci bag online shopping

[Daniel]

Also, tried some new experiments last night Taped black pitsalc bags to my windows to make my room 100% dark.Still woke up 2-3 times (I'm trying to reduce this to ZERO) but my dreams were VERY vivid.I actually woke up frightened from one of my dreams because in my dream I lost my wallet and thought it was REAL.I haven't had that happen in a long time.I overnighted the glasses and I think they're downstairs.

[War]

is an application that atdjsus the white balance of your computer screen.It's even possible that you're staying up too late because of your computer. You could use f.lux because it makes you sleep better, or you could just use it just because it makes your computer look better.

[Lech]

Thanks for the product link, Kevin. I'm cuiorus: How did you determine that they filter the right frequencies (550nm and down)? Re: video, I'll email Michael, though I believe it's only available for the non-participatory talks (Steve's and Matt's). Good luck with the dark!

[Claudia]

Oo! Movie musicals!I coenfss to living on the Gene Kelly side of the Gene Kelly vs. Fred Astaire deathmatch, so keep that in mind. One can't go wrong with Gene Kelly and Leslie Caron, however. Gigi, An American in Paris, Singin' in the Rain.I also dig Cyd Charisse. Brigadoon.Howard Keel has the dreamiest voice of any movie-musical actor EVER, plus impressive comic timing. Kismet, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, Kiss Me Kate.Movie musicals I don't like: Paint Your Wagon, Cabaret, Sweet Charity.

[Shah]

I can't defend Paint Your Wagon on its metirs I saw it just after having my wisdom teeth out and so have precious little idea what its metirs might or might not be to a sober mind but it is the manliest musical ever made, and it did for my relationship to Clint Eastwood what Chicago did for you and Richard Gere.

[Manish]

i totally think we'd have a HARD time at the wine bar togheetr . . . they'd need to drag us out, kicking and screaming (wearing tutus or the newest stupid $98 hoodie with a lulu symbol) . . .AND we'd both be pissed off the next day about our yoga and pillates hangovers. i just know it. :) but it would be worth it. xxx