Some notes about Num-Num and my mom's posts: Let's remember that they're posting these things now, in hindsight. So they're summaries of all the things they tried to do over the years, not a daily To Do list.
I read somewhere that with parenting, 70% is perfect. Hitting your ideals and goals 70% of the time means you're doing everything right. That's something to think about as you step on a Matchbox car or Polly Pocket in your bare feet.
Oh, and that Brenda lady who wrote about entertaining your kids can bite me. Hard. Twice. I can't imagine my mom "entertaining" me. What she did was do a lot of writing with her manual typewriter on the end of the dining table. And when I came to talk to her she'd get me to dictate and then she'd type up my poem or whatever I'd told her. (She wanted me to understand that my words were worth writing down.) Num-Num told me that she wasn't a down-on-the-floor-playing kind of mom, but fortunately she was raising her son in the city, so they'd go out and walk, and she'd go as slow as her son wanted to go, and she'd answer all his questions to the best of her ability.
There are all sorts of ways to let your child know that s/he matters. Most of them don't require being perfect, or even all that competent.
But on to the promised topic for today: Your responsibilities as an adult child.
I think there are two things that adult children have a responsibility to do to/for/with our parents:
1. Try to understand as much as possible what's motivating them, and
2. Figure out where our boundaries are and enforce them.
Trying to figure out why they're acting like they do
Figuring out what's motivating a parent can benefit both of you if the relationship is basically healthy. If the relationship isn't essentially sound, figuring out what's motivating your parent will help you far more than it'll help the parent.
It's important to note that understanding why your parent acts the way s/he does toward you (and your kids and everyone else) doesn't mean that you either blame them or absolve them of responsibility. It just means that you allow yourself to see your parent, the behavior, and your interactions as part of a system instead of just as random events. It's unbelievably freeing to realize that it's not just something about you that makes your parent act that way.
I think some a good examples of this from the comments is hush's comment on Num-Num's post about her aunt faking illness to get away from hush's mom and how that made hush realize that it wasn't her fault but was something her mom was dealing with instead. And that she couldn't change it. Knowing is at least half the battle.
It's also possible that when you figure out the motivation behind the behavior you can figure out how to switch things up so the issue disappears. I think that tons of the critical words parents level on their adult children about parenting decisions are because the parents feel indicted by the different decisions their children make. I mean, think about it--when our parents were raising us they were told to take speed during pregnancy so they didn't gain too much weight, to start rice cereal at 2 or 3 weeks, and that crying was important because it "exercised our lungs." If now they're being told that the things they did with us were bad, then a certain number of them are going to end up feeling guilty or bad about that, and like we're judging them. Even the idea that now we put babies to sleep on their backs can seem like we're judging our parents! If your mom is already having a hard time figuring out how she feels about being a grandmother (because being a grandmother means she's old, right?), and is conflicted about your taking the ultimate step toward independence and also replacing her, then how crappy is she going to feel that apparently now everything she did with you was wrong?
Obviously that doesn't give her license to be a jerk to you. But it's possible that you could increase connection between the two of you by treating her as just another mom who was doing the best for her kid with what she knew at the time, and specifically asking her what they were told to do back then. Then discuss how experts have changed over the years. Keeping it on the level of "of course we all do what the latest research tells us to do because we want to do the right thing" makes it less personal and more about how science and research have advanced over the years. It wouldn't hurt to bring up the idea that when your baby is grown they'll probably do things differently than you're doing them now, too.
Or you might realize that knowing why it's happening makes it not bother you so much. In the case of a parent who is having problems with the idea of being a grandparent because it means getting old, just knowing that might be enough to make it not bother you so much. After all, it's hard to be shoved into a new role, but most people grow into it eventually. If it's bugging you but not really hurting your feelings irreparably, maybe knowing it'll pass eventually is enough.
The kicker here, of course, is that all this figuring out, making connection, and cutting slack is easier for the people who already have good relationships with their parents. So for pete's sake, don't feel guilty if you can't even conceive of what it would be like for your mom's problem with becoming a grandmother not to bother you. If your parents didn't lay the groundwork for an open, healthily-connected relationship with you, then there's not much you can do about it, except for...
Setting boundaries
Holly commented yesterday:
So by choosing and setting boundaries not only are you giving your parent a shot at at least one normal healthy relationship, you're also helping reestablish a baseline for yourself. Which, in turn, is going to help you be a better parent and help your children as well. Because when your kids are adults, none of you will be in distress about the boundaries, because you did all the heavy lifting right now.
Again, this is going to be easier if you already have a good relationship with your parent. (Which means your parent understood or worked on developing healthy boundaries, and was able to communicate that to you in at least some part.)
For those of you that are basically working alone and starting from scratch, here are some questions I'd start asking myself to help sort out where to start:
It sounds kind of stark and non-organic to have to look at it as a transaction. But as Kenny Rogers says, "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run."*
I'm imagining it wouldn't hurt, if your relationship with your parent is seriously labyrinthine, to read some stuff about negotiating, like Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In. (OK, this is hilarious: When I went to get the Amazon link I searched "getting to yes" and the book right under the GTY book is entitled Are Your Parents Driving You Crazy? So you're not alone, apparently.)
This may mean limiting the amount of time you spend with your parents, or limiting the location. A friend recently hit upon the brilliant idea of doing a Family Vacation with her in-laws every year to someplace like Disneyworld because then the jockeying for superiority over who was hosting is lessened. Her in-laws are still horrible, but not having them in her house or being held hostage in theirs is enough to make visits bearable. And her kids get to spend time with their grandparents while making happy memories. (We'll talk about protecting your kids from your parents' bad behavior tomorrow.)
Since you've already figured out why your parents act the way they do, you're released from the idea that you "should" do one thing or the other. It's all part of a system, right? Not you being a Good Daughter. So you can make decisions about what you can accept based on reality instead of living up to an unattainable ideal.
Of course it may also mean that you give up on what was your dream for a close relationship, and maintain perfunctory contact, but get your emotional needs met someplace else. You are a worthwhile person and your kids are amazing--there are plenty of people who would be thrilled to become your extended family. Sometimes the idea of walking away to save yourself is worse than actually doing it.
Holy crap, that was long. But this is important. Comments?
* If you end up with that song in your head for the rest of the day, I apologize sincerely. If it makes you feel any better I probably can't shake it either.
(3 am: Be thrilled to see preschooler when she screams "Mama! I had a nightmare! Can I come sleep with you?"
6:30 am: Wake up and tell husband joke, just to show you haven't lost yourself and the sense of humor that attracted him.
9 am: Laugh. Then laugh some more.
9:10 am: Share faith and values. Use finger puppets.
10 am: When you accidentally break off side mirror on car while handing sippy cup to kid strapped into back seat while backing up because you're late to doctor's appointment, be sure to say "Well, that was a good experiment, wasn't it?" instead of "Fucking fuck!"
1 pm: Perfect brownie recipe.)
I read somewhere that with parenting, 70% is perfect. Hitting your ideals and goals 70% of the time means you're doing everything right. That's something to think about as you step on a Matchbox car or Polly Pocket in your bare feet.
Oh, and that Brenda lady who wrote about entertaining your kids can bite me. Hard. Twice. I can't imagine my mom "entertaining" me. What she did was do a lot of writing with her manual typewriter on the end of the dining table. And when I came to talk to her she'd get me to dictate and then she'd type up my poem or whatever I'd told her. (She wanted me to understand that my words were worth writing down.) Num-Num told me that she wasn't a down-on-the-floor-playing kind of mom, but fortunately she was raising her son in the city, so they'd go out and walk, and she'd go as slow as her son wanted to go, and she'd answer all his questions to the best of her ability.
There are all sorts of ways to let your child know that s/he matters. Most of them don't require being perfect, or even all that competent.
But on to the promised topic for today: Your responsibilities as an adult child.
I think there are two things that adult children have a responsibility to do to/for/with our parents:
1. Try to understand as much as possible what's motivating them, and
2. Figure out where our boundaries are and enforce them.
Trying to figure out why they're acting like they do
Figuring out what's motivating a parent can benefit both of you if the relationship is basically healthy. If the relationship isn't essentially sound, figuring out what's motivating your parent will help you far more than it'll help the parent.
It's important to note that understanding why your parent acts the way s/he does toward you (and your kids and everyone else) doesn't mean that you either blame them or absolve them of responsibility. It just means that you allow yourself to see your parent, the behavior, and your interactions as part of a system instead of just as random events. It's unbelievably freeing to realize that it's not just something about you that makes your parent act that way.
I think some a good examples of this from the comments is hush's comment on Num-Num's post about her aunt faking illness to get away from hush's mom and how that made hush realize that it wasn't her fault but was something her mom was dealing with instead. And that she couldn't change it. Knowing is at least half the battle.
It's also possible that when you figure out the motivation behind the behavior you can figure out how to switch things up so the issue disappears. I think that tons of the critical words parents level on their adult children about parenting decisions are because the parents feel indicted by the different decisions their children make. I mean, think about it--when our parents were raising us they were told to take speed during pregnancy so they didn't gain too much weight, to start rice cereal at 2 or 3 weeks, and that crying was important because it "exercised our lungs." If now they're being told that the things they did with us were bad, then a certain number of them are going to end up feeling guilty or bad about that, and like we're judging them. Even the idea that now we put babies to sleep on their backs can seem like we're judging our parents! If your mom is already having a hard time figuring out how she feels about being a grandmother (because being a grandmother means she's old, right?), and is conflicted about your taking the ultimate step toward independence and also replacing her, then how crappy is she going to feel that apparently now everything she did with you was wrong?
Obviously that doesn't give her license to be a jerk to you. But it's possible that you could increase connection between the two of you by treating her as just another mom who was doing the best for her kid with what she knew at the time, and specifically asking her what they were told to do back then. Then discuss how experts have changed over the years. Keeping it on the level of "of course we all do what the latest research tells us to do because we want to do the right thing" makes it less personal and more about how science and research have advanced over the years. It wouldn't hurt to bring up the idea that when your baby is grown they'll probably do things differently than you're doing them now, too.
Or you might realize that knowing why it's happening makes it not bother you so much. In the case of a parent who is having problems with the idea of being a grandparent because it means getting old, just knowing that might be enough to make it not bother you so much. After all, it's hard to be shoved into a new role, but most people grow into it eventually. If it's bugging you but not really hurting your feelings irreparably, maybe knowing it'll pass eventually is enough.
The kicker here, of course, is that all this figuring out, making connection, and cutting slack is easier for the people who already have good relationships with their parents. So for pete's sake, don't feel guilty if you can't even conceive of what it would be like for your mom's problem with becoming a grandmother not to bother you. If your parents didn't lay the groundwork for an open, healthily-connected relationship with you, then there's not much you can do about it, except for...
Setting boundaries
Holly commented yesterday:
"I find the recurring theme of "boundaries" interesting from both yesterday's and today's post. Probably someone who is able to "give up her own self" for her children (or spouse), will later not respect the "self of the adult child." If you don't have boundaries for yourself, how will you help create and allow boundaries for your child?"
So by choosing and setting boundaries not only are you giving your parent a shot at at least one normal healthy relationship, you're also helping reestablish a baseline for yourself. Which, in turn, is going to help you be a better parent and help your children as well. Because when your kids are adults, none of you will be in distress about the boundaries, because you did all the heavy lifting right now.
Again, this is going to be easier if you already have a good relationship with your parent. (Which means your parent understood or worked on developing healthy boundaries, and was able to communicate that to you in at least some part.)
For those of you that are basically working alone and starting from scratch, here are some questions I'd start asking myself to help sort out where to start:
- What can I reasonably get from my parent?
- Is that enough?
- If not, is there someplace else I can get that so I'm able to let go of the need to get it from my parent?
- What am I willing to give up to get something from my parent?
- If I take steps to setting some boundaries, do I have a way to check myself so I don't get guilted or manipulated into abandoning those boundaries just to keep peace or win approval?
- Am I prepared for short-term anger and hostility when I start to draw some boundaries?
- Is there anyone else who knows my parent who can help me troubleshoot and back me up in my plan?
It sounds kind of stark and non-organic to have to look at it as a transaction. But as Kenny Rogers says, "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run."*
I'm imagining it wouldn't hurt, if your relationship with your parent is seriously labyrinthine, to read some stuff about negotiating, like Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In. (OK, this is hilarious: When I went to get the Amazon link I searched "getting to yes" and the book right under the GTY book is entitled Are Your Parents Driving You Crazy? So you're not alone, apparently.)
This may mean limiting the amount of time you spend with your parents, or limiting the location. A friend recently hit upon the brilliant idea of doing a Family Vacation with her in-laws every year to someplace like Disneyworld because then the jockeying for superiority over who was hosting is lessened. Her in-laws are still horrible, but not having them in her house or being held hostage in theirs is enough to make visits bearable. And her kids get to spend time with their grandparents while making happy memories. (We'll talk about protecting your kids from your parents' bad behavior tomorrow.)
Since you've already figured out why your parents act the way they do, you're released from the idea that you "should" do one thing or the other. It's all part of a system, right? Not you being a Good Daughter. So you can make decisions about what you can accept based on reality instead of living up to an unattainable ideal.
Of course it may also mean that you give up on what was your dream for a close relationship, and maintain perfunctory contact, but get your emotional needs met someplace else. You are a worthwhile person and your kids are amazing--there are plenty of people who would be thrilled to become your extended family. Sometimes the idea of walking away to save yourself is worse than actually doing it.
Holy crap, that was long. But this is important. Comments?
* If you end up with that song in your head for the rest of the day, I apologize sincerely. If it makes you feel any better I probably can't shake it either.
Lily - Yes, yes, yes. I don't even have kids yet, and I'm already getting judgment from my mom because I really don't think I'll be staying with her for six weeks after the birth of my first (dude, what about my husband?). None of my friends can understand why it's so hard to set boundaries with her. The expectations are just so wildly different.
Posted by: songbird | May 29, 2008 at 03:49 PM
Can I just toss in a plea for a couple of paragraphs on the, "when your dh's crummy relationship with his parents turn him into a temporary jerk"?
He dreads, he's antagonistic, he baits them, then we get in the car and he baits me and talks to me like he talks to her. But it is classic "Nobody hits my brother but me" so I sit on my hands and bite my tounge until he gets to the point where he baits me and then I can stop that.
Our first kid is on the way, this is not an ok situation for the little to witness.
Posted by: Annon for this | May 29, 2008 at 03:57 PM
Like enu, I was hoping for some discussion of what we can do FOR our parents in addition to what our needs are as adult children. We've focused a lot on our boundaries, not what our parents feel is a healthy relationship.
I feel we have the obligation to set aside the emotional needs we had as children as we grow, just as we expect our parents to do the difficult job of nurturing us while slowly separating from us.
This is, of course, assuming that the relationship was somewhat OK to begin with. As enu said, this is confounded if you never got that support as a child.
I was lucky enough to have a set of very functional parents and would love a parent's take on what they feel their adult children bring into their lives, or can bring...
Posted by: Anna | May 29, 2008 at 04:23 PM
All I can say is that drawing boundaries with a mother who has Borderline Personality Disorder is a LIVING HELL. So I've learned to play her games just for self-preservation.
But now that she's saying things to my 21-month-old daughter like, "You are my only reason for LIVING!" ... I have to figure out a way to navigate all this, or set my daughter up to navigate it.
My greatest fear is that my mother, who is the master of guilt and manipulation, will drive a wedge between my daughter and me.
Posted by: Amy | May 29, 2008 at 04:44 PM
I can rationalize my mother's behavior back when I was a kid until the end of days. It still hurts and will always hurt. For me, I think the path left open for me is to back off from the emotions. Having some sort of big emotional blow-out with her will do nothing but make her upset and me upset.
And, unlike many (perhaps more balanced) people, I am not worried about how I'll feel after she dies. Our relationship will have been our relationship. She certainly felt like she did the best she could. Who am I to tell her now that I wasn't satisfied??
Posted by: attiton | May 29, 2008 at 04:47 PM
@anonforthis at 3:57pm & anonforrightnow -- About those in-laws...
I'm going to assume that we're not talking about functional, well-adjusted in-laws, but we're instead referring to in-laws who are abusive, and who use fear, guilt, pity, and other negative emotions to manipulate you and your spouse.
The best treatment of this topic is the book "Toxic In-Laws: Loving Strategies for Protecting Your Marriage" by Susan Forward. (Throw Moxie a bone & click through this site first to get to Amazon.)
Long story short (and by the way, my marriage is far from solid these days), the one thing I'm grateful for is that we decided when we got married that we'd each take responsibility for checking our own parents if they ever crossed any lines. Neither of us has had to be in the no-win situation of having to confront our in-laws, and our parents have never lost face.
DH got to a point with his abusive parents where he realized that they needed to be out of his life because they only know how to abuse him. One day he figured out that they were not going to change. I fully supported him, just as I would fully support him if he ever decided to give them another chance - but I can't tell you how many well-intentioned people who don't know the real situation still choose to express their opinions that my hubby has made a grave mistake. Keep it to yourself, people!
My only concern going forward is for our son, should they ever reach out to him unbeknownst to us. Someday we're going to have to tell DS the (age-appropriate) truth, which will not be easy.
Posted by: hush | May 29, 2008 at 05:13 PM
attiton: I think you have a great grasp on what I've been trying to say. And you see it in the way that works best for you.
I, too, have come to the conclusion that there is NO need for a huge emotional blowup. Who am I to say that she was wrong. Her way was wrong for ME as a parent, but who am I to say she was wrong.
I think that conversation belongs between her and the big guy, not me.
Any lack of satisfaction I have belongs to me, not her, I am an adult! That's why I deal with MY issues my self.
My mom has said she would LOVE for my sister and I to have a blow up, it would clear the air—her words not mine.
I think it would cause words to be said that may never be able to be taken back.
We will all will have to live with the fact that our relationship was what our relationship was.
I think I am just more aware of what happens after a parent dies because my DH lost his mother at 13 and his family has been emotionally frozen in many ways since then.
This goes back to what I said in my post, everyone will see these posts thought their own filters. You sound very clear about your needs and desires on this one.
Posted by: Sharon aka Mommie Mentor | May 29, 2008 at 05:28 PM
meant through, not thought, too much multitasking.
Posted by: Sharon aka Mommie Mentor | May 29, 2008 at 05:30 PM
Background: I am a woman in her mid-twenties without children. A friend who regularly reads Moxie forwarded it to me at the beginning of the week because, long story short, anyone who truly knows me knows that my mother and I have a very rocky relationship. It has been a pleasure reading the posts and comments all week. Thanks, Moxie!
A few posters have mentioned mothers who suffer from mental illness. I believe that my mother suffers from paranoid personality disorder (PPD), which makes my life as the adult child especially difficult. My form of boundary setting typically involves cutting her off from personal aspects of my life to avoid her constant criticism, unsolicited advice, negativity, and guilt trips. I turn to my friends and my significant other to fill the void I often feel because of her. Luckily, I am blessed to have a strong support system.
Because of the PPD, my mother doesn't like when I interact with family members if she is not there (the paranoia makes her assume the worst). This has seriously limited my relationship with my father (to whom she is still married) and my extended family (who she has informed me are really HER family). Because my mother berates us if she finds out that we've had contact, it is often easier not to interact in order to avoid the resulting drama she will cause. While this has led to "secret" conversations/meetings, I have no doubt that I would be closer to my dad and my extended family if she were not involved.
How can I set boundaries with her and still strengthen these other relationships? Right now, she is the one setting the boundaries that we all follow and I'm just not sure how to turn that around. I really want my father and my extended family to be involved in my upcoming wedding/marriage and to have a relationship with my (someday) children. Thoughts or advice?
Posted by: olive | May 29, 2008 at 07:06 PM
Hi there... great week of posts and trying to digest it all (and find time to read all the comments). I been a little removed from the reading as I didn't have a "good" mom - she was the type one of the commentors mentioned - children too young, divorced pretty young, trying to find herself while squeezing in parenting on the side, etc. We've navigated our relationship so it is in a better place now but I know deep down I have this tiny feeling in the back of my head waiting for the shoe to drop so to speak and things to go back to the old ways. I think that is where the boundaries come in and not knowing where to set them. I can handle if we revert back but not prepared to have my boys have to go through that. I see myself cringe and get so nervous when she visits - all fired up and excited to see them, them so excited to see her, an hour in, she's reading the paper and they are trying so hard to get her attention. huh? I just don't get it and it brings back so many feelings from my childhood of me not being/feeling important to her. I guess I have to trust that 1) my boys won't have as much invested in her attention since she's not their mom but their grandma, and 2) that I'll be a good enough mom to provide them with a sense of self worth that they won't need to get any from her (and fail). I'm not sure I'm there yet but this week's posts have really made me think about it and get to the idea that I need to trust the boys and myself (can't 100% trust my mom so shouldn't try to even bring that one in) that we will be just fine. Got to go... boys are up from their nap. Looking forward to tomorrow's post.
Posted by: mo | May 29, 2008 at 07:38 PM
re: Moxie's statement:
"I think an adult parent owes you interest in your life and in your kids. Kindness and respect for your skills and talents. Support for your parenting. Pleasure in talking/emailing/texting you and in seeing you in person. The truth about your family history. Joy in your successes. Sadness (not recrimination) at your failures and heartbreaks. A desire to be in contact. Acknowledgment that your children are above average. Advice only when asked for.
That's what I mean by what you "get" from your parents."
This is exactly what I strive for; I hope I can measure up.
There are some delicate lines -- am I calling her too much? Am I not calling her enough? Should I offer advice (the answer to this is almost always NO!! not unless she asks.)I struggle with wanting to 'fix' things for her, but knowing that I have to allow her to work it out for herself.
I hope and pray that I am doing the right things; sometimes you never know.
To those of you who struggle with parents who are either too distant or try to be too involved, I am truly sorry. Sadly, we are all only doing what we know how to do. We are simply products of what we learned from the adults in our lives; and they from their elders. It is not right; it's not necessarily wrong; it just IS. As I mentioned in my previous post, my Mom died when I was 21. My Dad is very distant, one of those stoic Norwegians who do not show emotion. I missed having the closeness that I KNOW I would have had were my Mom still alive, but I understand and I love Dad for who he is; he cannot be what he is not.
You can click on my name to a poem I wrote for her when she was 17 years old. I don't know what that has to do with this topic, but it sums up my feelings toward my child and the fact that she is, indeed, an adult.
Posted by: Kathy B. | May 29, 2008 at 08:01 PM
I think my mom did a great job in a horrid situation, bringing us up. My trouble is with her as she is now, passive and expecting my father to rescue her (which he will never do, and she knows it very well), and refusing to face and deal with things that are hard to cope with, and not recognizing that she has to take an active role in coping. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to tell her some of the things I really think about her behaviors, but actually, I think she's gradually realizing some things herself, and doing some work (though never, ever enough, of course).
I entirely empathize with the poster above who remarked on her mom who has Borderline Personality Syndrome. My dad does, too, and he's abusive to boot. We kids know very well that we can't ever expect "normal" from him; we give him barely surface access to our lives, and nothing more. DH and I are well agreed that he won't ever be allowed to watch our kids (even if he was interested, which I doubt). We maintain relations, partly because we can't afford (financially!) not to, but I for one would gladly cut him out of my life entirely, for my and my family's protection. It's hard. I don't really know what a functional dad looks like, something that will be a continual struggle with letting DH do the dad thing with our kids. I suppose, though, that I've gotten to a place of, if not forgiveness, then resignation about him; he is who and what he is, and he will never be capable of changing, and all I can do is take responsibility for my own actions towards him. I can behave in some variation of "the right thing", even if he will never grasp what that is. Is that what y'all mean when you talk about forgiveness and resolution? Because I don't think I can ever forgive my abuser, not by my lights, and I will never, again by my lights, reach a resolution with him.
I was talking with my mom the other night about details for her traveling up to stay with us for a couple of weeks after the baby is born. I mentioned that I will expect her to help out with housework - in fact, I will expect every visitor to help out in some way! - and she made a crack about not wanting to work while on her vacation. I knew it was a joke, so I didn't get up in arms (much), but it still stings, even though we promptly started discussing details of how she could help while she's here. Note to self: don't ever make jokes like that to my daughter when she's expecting, no matter how well we understand each other!
Posted by: Katie B. | May 29, 2008 at 09:41 PM
Oscar Wilde put it this way: "Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them; rarely, if ever, do they forgive them."
Posted by: nicole | May 29, 2008 at 09:56 PM
To answer Katie B's comment. Forgiveness and resolution for ME is getting to a place where I'm no longer angry inside all the time, I haven't forgotten, but I'm no longer angry and blaming.
I actually use my memories to remind me of what my DH always says, "you can't have it both ways, either do as they wish and give up a piece of yourself or hold on to your boundaries the best way you can with love, respect and empathy and stay true to your own integrity." I love him!
For me it also means that I can soften the boundaries I've set when I'm ready, but that only happens for ME when I've hit the place of forgiveness
Hope that helps.
Posted by: Sharon aka Mommie Mentor | May 29, 2008 at 10:12 PM
Moxie,
At our daughter's suggestion we have been reading your posts. While mainly littered with self-evident truths (e.g. "every generation puts its own twist on parenting" and "grandparents and mothers have different roles and rights" or "love, trust and respect will help you work through any conflict" we detect a bias based on the adult child's perspective and a dangerously misleading effort to characterize barriers as boundaries. By encouraging adult children to adopt a "my way or the highway" approach with their parents there may be some temporary feeling of empowerment but at the price of a lost relationship. I think you need some more insightful comments from the parents' perspective than your mother's cut her loose and "trust the lord"
to make it all right philosophy.
Posted by: Bob | May 29, 2008 at 10:57 PM
@Lily, you raise an important issue and one on which I have no insight. We are seriously considering a move overseas indefinitely in the next year or two. My biggest fear is that I am not equipped to raise my daughter to be a well adjusted woman in a non-American culture. What will it do to her to have a mother who is an outsider to the growing up and adult experiences of the other culture? What will it do to me? What will be the fallout of our relationship as a result? If we indeed go and stay overseas, my only hope is that I can raise her to be able to evaluate for herself the other culture's norms, expectations, etc of women in the context of really knowing and loving herself. Or is that just the first example of how my American woman's vantage point will miss the mark on this issue?
The cultural clash of expectations of relationship and family are huge. In the years I've worked with immigrant families, I've never seen a family in which those issues did not come to the fore at some point. The act of setting boundaries in most of the sense talked about here, or even raising the issue as merely an academic point of discussion, is not intrinsically a concept bought into by other cultural systems. Doing so can make You the outlier, not the immigrant parents for having a differing cultural take on family/roles. And there isn't really a right/wrong side in the cultural perceptions, just the reality of the collision of cultural perspectives. Messy.
Posted by: Alma | May 30, 2008 at 12:12 AM
Wow. I made this first comment this morning before my baby woke up sick, and have been so busy with him all day that I didn’t follow along until now. I am overwhelmed (as usual) by all of the support and good advice in these comments.
@hedra (multiple times) Thank you for so many of your profound reflections and sharing your family experiences. I probably should have specified that I have spent a lot of time reflecting on what has made my mom so detached. I don’t think AT ALL that she didn’t like mothering us when we were young or that she was biding her time. I don’t the problem is defining herself as a grandmother either—the issue predates the arrival of my babies. I do think the societal conflicts at play when she became a wife and mother have had an impact. And I also think that family history and her relationship with her own mother and grandmother have had a profound impact on her. She also is remarried to a very insecure and needy person who chose never to have his own children and acts like we are one of my mother’s “for worse” attributes that he grudgingly tolerates. Part of me does find it interesting to think about her motivations and figuring them out did help me realize years ago that I was in no way at fault here. But there is an immature part of me is also just annoyed that I have to do all of this to have a relationship with her. I just want have that safe feeling that I had unconditionally as a child that if I really needed her, she would be there for as long as I needed. I don’t, and it hurts even though I really do have all of the support I could ever need from some other family members.
@ Joy "I'm saying is that I really don't want to peak behind the curtains of Oz ... I'd rather go on believing in the wizard for the rest of my life. I just want my mom to be a mom, not a human peer. I've got plenty of those.
Exactly!
@ Eep I am so sorry that we seem to have had such similar experiences. Thanks for sharing your coping mechanism. I share your worry that my children will think she doesn’t like them or that she will do something to disappoint them. I learned the HARD way that all the contact they have with her has to be initiated by her. And I never tell them they are going to see her until I KNOW she is physically on her way over. Maybe when they are older they will notice the differences in the relationships they have with her and their other grandparents, all of whom live much farther away. But for right now, I just try and make interaction as fun as possible and I honestly don’t think they notice. I also try to never express my hurt in front of them (haven’t always been successful on this front, but I am trying!) And I should be clear here—when my mom feels like being an engaged grandparent there is no one better. And I know that in her own way she loves me and my kids with every fiber of her being.
I have personally lowered my expectations of spending time with her/having her available both physically and emotionally down to basically nothing. For years I was told to lower my expectations as a means of coping, and for a long time I felt like every time I lowered the bar, she would do (or not do) something even more hurtful. Finally I realized I could expect NOTHING of her. And now I view anything I do get as a bonus. It’s been tremendously helpful, except when I stop to really reflect on the situation, and then it just makes me annoyed and sad.
@Hedra and pnuts mama Thanks for your comments about forgiveness, particularly forgiveness as a process. I have talked with my Priest about this many times and I need to continually remind myself to release my hurt and try to forgive. Hedra is right that trying to forgive while still hurting can be a very helpful part of the releasing stage, which does need to come first. I feel like I am on my way there when I am having a good day, and in my weaker moments I feel like I will never get over it. Lowering my expectations down to basically nothing so that I don’t incur new hurts was huge step down the road to forgiveness. But I am still working on giving overall wound up to Him.
@enu I hope I was not unclear. I have no material or financial expectations of my parents, or anyone for that matter. I also don’t expect her to baby sit or spend specific amounts of time with us or do my laundry anything like that. I don’t feel like she “owes” me anything. I would just like to feel like she is someone I can always count on.
Thanks again to everyone for all of your supportive comments and stories and advice. Thanks most of all to Moxie for creating and fostering such a positive forum!
Posted by: Jessica | May 30, 2008 at 12:39 AM
I should have written @ JILLY "I'm saying is that I really don't want to peak behind the curtains of Oz ... I'd rather go on believing in the wizard for the rest of my life. I just want my mom to be a mom, not a human peer. I've got plenty of those.
Exactly!
Posted by: Jessica | May 30, 2008 at 07:28 AM
Boundaries with a MIL who shares the same house ( same building, different apartment)can be a bit tricky. Especially one who is mentally ill and has only one child, who is your husband. The first few years were seriously a nightmare with her. The point is that this house we all live in is the family home which was split into two separate, independent apartments 6 years ago, but to her it is still the same house she has been living in for the last 40 years, so what is mine is hers (she also paid for most of it BTW, which certainly doesn't help). In the early days when her friends came to see her new apartment,she would say in a big loud voice that everyone could hear 'can suchandsuch see upstairs too' - my place that is)and how could you say no. She would then proceed to show them thru the house, opening all the cupboards so they could be impressed by the lovely things she had so graciously bestowed on us, and I would be furious. To be honest, this was the peak of her bipolar period, so she was pretty hyper and excited and talked all the time, and no one really knew that it was part of her disorder, but still I felt violated. It took almost 4 years to build boundaries with her. Basically each brick was put into place after an argument,or one of these little 'visits', but now I think we have a wobbly wall in place that occasionally gets knocked down but we continue to build it up again and again and it does the job.
Posted by: paola | May 30, 2008 at 08:02 AM
@Alma
Perhaps I'm not the best person to comment here. I guess I have always been a bit of an outsider, both in Australia, growing up as a first generation Italo-Australian, and here in Italy as an 'Australian', but I feel I belong a little in both places rather than not belonging in either, if that makes sense. Many of my parents friends, and my father too for that matter, did not assimilate in the host culture and many did not even speak the local language and brought up well-adjusted, happy and successful children. Your relationship with your child will no doubt be affected by your bringing her up in a foreign country, like it would be by every other circumstance or situation.
Posted by: paola | May 30, 2008 at 08:19 AM
@Bob, my first question is whether you are prone to boundary-crossing with your kids. Because if you are NOT, then I understand why you're uncomfortable with the idea of hard boundaries, and the "I AM THE MOTHER" rules and deliniations. Likely, instead, you are in conversation with your adult kids, and you mutually define the lines.
However, if you ARE someone who cannot mutually define the lines without setting them totally in your own comfort zone (and hurting your own kids in the process), or who uses guilt, shame, fear, or anger to set the lines into territory that is hurtful for the other parties (even if you don't see how it COULD be, it doesn't compute to you), then... well, that's a whole other issue.
Since we've been talking philosophy, not action, it's harder to clarify in a way that won't get your back up, make you bristle, make you feel like we're standing WAAAY over here, and telling you to stand in a corner over there on the other side of the line we've drawn, and don't move more than a half-step in any direction.
As for action...
Boundary drawing in a firm, direct, and clear way is well-known to be essential to the process of living an emotionally safe and healthy life - if the relationship is codependent or emotionally hurtful. If there's guilt, shame, fear, or rage floating around under every communication, that's the only sane way to proceed, because anything BUT clear boundaries means pain constantly being given. Not healthy. Boundaries are essential. And in many cases, really hard, firm, inflexible ones are absolutely required. (This may totally suck for the grandparents - I hear that - I know from my mom how incredibly painful it is to love someone as much as grandchildren can be loved - as much as and sometimes even more than one's own children - and have zero power to make choices *for* them. To watch their kids make mistakes that could have (maybe) been avoided, even after one has waved hands and jumped around pointing to the impending Mack Truck coming their way. To not be able to have a free and open and whole relationship with them, solely because of the mistakes and issues with the adult-child relationship... *SUCKS* And that's still not grounds for control of where the lines are drawn.)
Even in a healthy relationship, setting boundaries is the first step. It sets out the flags for 'this is where I am comfortable'.
And then the conversation begins. If you read Moxie much, (and I suspect you haven't), she's all about the process of parenting being an ongoing conversation, full of times when you don't get it right, and full of times when you try again, work the uncomfortable edges, find the range, develop the skills, and grow some more. And always always continue the conversation. Where you start is not where you end.
When there's a painful line cross, either direction, people tend to set boundaries. For the 2 year old, it is the foot stomping NO! For the adult, it can be harder - harder to say no, and sometimes harder to say yes. The needs are more complicated, I suspect. But the boundaries are still negotiated through, eventually. Either that, or the child outgrows the stage, and you end up re-discovering the issue at some later point.
Same here.
I set some really hard line boundaries with my mom. Ripped her head right off, and yes, I made her cry. It was the automatic defense response - my boundaries had been walked over, and I'd let her, not sure how to respond until I was bleeding as bad inside as I made her bleed (figuratively speaking). IMPORTANT NOTE: That is NOT the recommended path! The conversation can and should be started more gently, and far sooner. Unfortunately, for too many of us, we don't have any idea that we should even have set boundaries to start with, so they're already trampled, and starting gently is like putting up a six-inch-tall garden edging to keep out maurading deer. NOT going to be noticed, the territory is already assumed! BIG fence might be more than is required, but it will at least define the space and keep the precious parts safe until a more reasonable solution can be found.
That huge line I drew, hard - and I'll admit, totally not set up for respectful and kind - also wasn't the end point. Thankfully, she doesn't stand on the far side of the line I drew, waiting for me to invite her to speak (and I probably wouldn't have let her stay over there for long anyway, but she was at that point more emotionally facile than I, and flexed faster than I could). She came back to me - probably less than 20 minutes later (though I don't actually recall how long), and said, 'OUCH. That hurt. And I know why it hurt, and I'm here to work this out, figure out where our roles begin and end. I'll need your help to find my way, I thought I knew how to be a grandmother, but no, I only know how to be a mother. I thought it was the same. It isn't. I think we can figure out our new roles together." And I felt pretty rotten for snapping at her (already did, though I was still licking my own wounds at that moment), and so I let her know I was sorry for hurting her in order to find the line I was comfortable with. And then we talked, and thought, and we still talk, and think.
My kids are now 10, 6, and 3 1/2, and 3 1/2. The conversation is unlikely to end any time soon. There are times I'll ask her to take on a supplemental role in something I'm not working well at (well inside those initial lines), and times she'll ask if she can offer some advice on something she's concerned about (she indicates the concern, I think, we talk). She's way closer 'in' on the boundaries than I thought I'd be comfortable with. But it was a matter of working the discomfort zone, over and over, until we found a way for our new roles to line up at the edges, in a way that could flex enough that we could adjust at need, without overstepping (much). And we do still overstep at times, each way, and have to adjust again. But it's not really painful, just uncomfortable.
It's *fluid* - perhaps that's one of the areas you're feeling is not addressed yet - the fluidity. Always changing, always adapting. But not always in ways we'd have forseen - she ends up with more space in an area neither of us had thought she'd get, regularly - and also has less room to work in an area she assumed would be more hers (sometimes at her instigation, sometimes at ours, sometimes just time and energy, sometimes other issues).
That's the healthy version. It's a conversation, started in infancy, continued as an adult. Always growing, moving, shifting. And yes, started with a hard line, this is MY side, that is YOUR side! (and I'm referring to *her* drawing the initial lines on ME, there - she made her own assumptions about the boundaries, and did not include my needs or opinion or power or authority *at all* in that decision. It was just so casually and automatically done that it didn't look like she was drawing any boundaries at all, so lovingly done that I didn't see it coming until I was flattened by it.) I drew mine back, hard again... and we then did not end it there.
So, that's the 'healthy relationship version' (type X, I'm sure there are a million reasonably healthy variations).
But boy, if there's no safety to be found in doing that, I'm 100% for the hard line. Adaptive hard lines are fine - if where it was drawn doesn't work, there's likely another way or place to draw it. I've mentored a mom through the process of drawing safe and sane boundaries with her family, when her own mental health had been ignored (and even undermined repeatedly), all in the name of love and family unity. Her parents, after 8 years of gentle and repeated discussions (as well as less gentle but repeated discussions), do not understand how much harm they do with their expectations and demands that she relate as THEY need her to relate. They just do not get it. They truly, deeply believe that her hard lines are selfish, shallow, narrowly defined, unhealthy, harmful, ungenerous, un-Christian, and unworthy. They're hurt by them, confused, and wonder where she got the idea that it is bad for them to constantly express their deep hope that she'll take on the roles they assigned her in childhood, be the peacemaker in the family, relate to the sibling(s) who hurt her so deeply that she's been in therapy for YEARS from it, accept the advice of parents who have never understood her pain and who consider themselves more worthy to make decisions about their grandchildren than the parents of those grandchildren could ever be. They believe they know her better than she knows herself. They are wounded at her rejection of their years of maturity and experience, leaving them so much more well equipped to understand the nuances of the situation, the ramifications, the regrets they are sure she'll one day have. They think that somehow, any good AT ALL in the relationship entirely outweighs the bad (and it can't be THAT bad, can it? she's always just been so *sensitive*), just because they're family, and family MUST forgive and family MUST be together, because they're *family*. Is it so wrong to want a relationship? Is it so wrong to be charitable, kind, loving, and generous towards the people we grew up with? Is it wrong to want our children to be a family together, to see them happily relating before we die? ... And sorry, both her therapist and I call total bullsh*t on that perspective. The one set of filters sees one picture, the other set of filters shows an entirely different view. They couch their emotional wounds in terms of family love, in terms of multigenerational relationships, and neglect to notice their own refusal to cope with their feelings, to define safe and sane boundaries in their own lives, their reliance on guilt, shame, and fear as methods to control the behavior of others, their channeling of all anger into one child, of regrets into another, their inability to express either of those experiences themselves. The words are the same as those chosen by healthy families... and they're false. The boundaries - yes, those hard line boundaries - are healthy, sane, and important, and only the ones who aren't mentally healthy can't see it. (Kind of a catch-22 there - if you don't think you're the one with the problem, you're unlikely to see that you're the one with the problem.)
(deep breath to continue on another tack)...
Important to note also that the relationship that a parent and grandparent have together is *not* neccessarily what the grandchild and grandparent will have. There's a unique relationship between the child and grandparent, too. How they measure and understand the relationship is unmarred by the parent-child relationship that their parents have with the grandparents (though it may be marred in its own unique ways). It is also unsupported on the child's side with the depth of understanding that comes with maturity. And it is innocent of the risks involved as well.
I'm currently reading Protecting the Gift (thanks, Moxie, for the reminder to put that back on the top of my reading list), and one of the things he says over and over is that instincts are there to be trusted. If adult kids instinctively feel it is unsafe to give their parents undefined access to the grandkids, and we ignore that instinct... well, there's a reason the instinct is there. It at least is a point that must be examined - it may be inaccurate, but it MUST be trusted as a warning signal. And hence the boundaries set.
Case in point. My mom ignored her instincts about my uncle. She tried to set reasonable boundaries (strict ones) with my grandfather, but allowed *supervised* access (including a couple of visits to our house for a week or so), working again against her instincts (because 'we deserved a chance to know our relatives' and under much pressure from the upper generation to have access, all of which made total sense, and all of which made her feel guilt and wrong, and all of which also set off her alarms ... which she ignored under the guilt and shame). That was the wrong choice, and we both agree on that point, and I was the one who suffered the consequences of her decision to not define the boundaries 'too harshly'. She let herself listen to the voice of reason, and I was sexually assaulted as a result. She did later change her mind, and hardened the limits more harshly - too late, but at least from the time I was seven, I was no longer placed at risk.
Granted, that's an extreme example. But what about using guilt as a weapon? Is it any less reasonable to protect my child from shame and guilt? What about showing my child that they are worthy of being protected from emotional manipulation? Or of showing them that respect is required, for myself and for my children?
They're all valid lines. And depending on the health of the relationship at the adults level, the conversation after the initial line-drawing will indicate where the line must fall in the end, and for how long, and with how much flex, and how far the line can be bent before it has to be re-drawn. No conversation (or just conversation that is a classic example of the painful interactions that are at issue in the first place) is a good reason to stick with the instinctive lines, IMHO.
Not demanding perfection, here, though.
My mom is imperfect with my kids. She's scared them with a harsh word, she's applied guilt to get results when she couldn't figure out how to handle something in the moment, she's overstepped her responsibility as grandma. Most of the time, I don't even twitch unless I see a pattern. Making a mistake is allowed. I don't berate her for them, either (no fair using shame or guilt back!). I'm not drawing the lines at perfection. But I do reserve the right to re-draw a line solidly if I see a reason to do so.
And that will start off another conversation, and the line will again become flexible and responsive in the process. Because we're both basically mentally healthy, and we're both still engaged in that life-long conversation.
Posted by: hedra | May 30, 2008 at 10:17 AM
@Jessica, one of the hardest parts of becoming a mother, for me, was integrating the idea that there is no such thing as 'safe'. That safe feeling? Never going to exist again for me. (Again drawing on my mom's words): "I am forever hostage to the fate of my children." (I cannot escape the fact that them being in a world that is not safe is part of my core.) and "When my child is cut, I bleed." (every wound they take is mine to feel, even though they will not understand this for a long time, if ever.)
I think it is part of the discovery process of parenthood to become comfortable with fear. Not that I like it, but that I own it. I felt much more sane after I'd been dunked in it, immersed, been unable to tell if my child was dying as I raced to the hospital. I had to really taste the fear in my mouth before I could go beyond worry and into an understanding that there is no surety, and that my mother never had any, either. My sense of safety was an illusion, created in order for me to explore the world. I do not create quite that sense of safety for my own kids - we do talk about safety, which indicates that there is at least at times a lack thereof. But I also try to make it rational, realistic, and not catastrophic. I'm not bounding their lives with always watching for the truck that is going to run them over. Did that with the first, set him up for anxiety, had to spend years (and still ongoing) working him back toward reality and the variety of possible outcomes in any situation. Sigh.
Anyway, I'm now okay with the lack of safety. I don't LIKE it, but I'm okay. It's real. It feels clean, at this point. I still get scared - the abdominal surgery on B at 5 weeks old went 20 minutes longer than they said it would... what is wrong? what happened? Is he okay? Was there a problem? AHHHHH! At 10 minutes I was okay, but after 15... there came the fear, carrying a big ol stick to beat me with. Sigh. I think feeling the really big fear in situations that are at least seemingly rational times to freak out a bit helps me be more comfortable (at peace with) with the daily everyday risks.
Posted by: hedra | May 30, 2008 at 10:44 AM
Just to acknowledge the puzzlement and indignation in Bob's post -- it's unquestionably true that you could have a very different and equally valid set of thoughts contributed to a discussion on this topic in which the participants are mostly parents of adult children, as opposed to the other way 'round. As much as I've found that having my own child has presented me with opportunities and challlenges related to forgiving my own mother, it's also -- and more so -- made me profoundly conscious of and grateful for her willingness to forgive *me*. For years and years I didn't give my mother the closeness she wished for -- partly, it's true, because she can be overly controlling and judgmental and anxious about everything, and in order to become a well-rounded adult I needed to create space for myself to make my own choices, but also, at least at times, out of immaturity and anger and plain old meanness. My mother has hurt me and I've hurt right back -- especially when I was pregnant and depressed and furious that the values and fears she'd instilled in me were part of the reason I'd ended up in that miserable position. And when I had the baby, I didn't invite her to the birth, and I made a big deal about having her and my dad stay a few blocks away when they visited, rather than camping out in our three-room apartment. Because I felt those were boundaries I needed, even if they hurt her. But five weeks later, after they'd gone back home (two thousand miles away), I was more overwhelmed and vulnerable than I'd ever been, and it suddenly didn't matter to me that my mom could be controlling and judgmental: I needed her. And she hopped on a plane that very next day and came out for a week that kept me from falling back into the pit of depression, alleviated my panic, and gave me the little bit of breathing room I needed to start to love my baby. And she's done that three more times this year, and I'm suddenly deeply grateful for the part of her -- the intense desire to protect -- that used to feel so smothering. And I'm also so grateful that she didn't say, as she quite reasonably might have: "Um, you want me to fly back out for another week where you make me feel like I'm a massive imposition on your personal space and that anything I say might be greeted with an eye-roll or a snide remark? Thanks, but I think I'll pass."
It isn't that I now think I was wrong about her being too eager to run her kids' lives -- she was and sometimes still is. She can still make me deeply pissed off. But I'm also so much better able to appreciate and focus on the ways in which she's a great mother.
Now, just in case the saccharine level is getting a little toxic here, I will say that my experience with my in-laws post-baby has been less wonderful. It's exactly what Moxie said in the original post: my choices feel like judgments to them, so they're kind of happy every time I fail.... Gotta work on defusing that vicious cycle.
Which is all just to say that
Posted by: Catherine | May 30, 2008 at 11:08 AM
@Sharon: Thanks a lot for responding and understanding.
Posted by: attiton | May 30, 2008 at 01:34 PM
Moxie, this is great. I've linked to you on my blog a couple times. Most recently, here: http://sitstaygoodbloggy.blogspot.com/2008/06/great-expectations.html
It really helps to discuss, even just to write it down, and I thank you for putting it out there, giving me the ideas and courage to introspect.
Posted by: marigold | June 04, 2008 at 05:48 PM
Moxie, this is great. I've linked to you on my blog a couple times. Most recently, here: http://sitstaygoodbloggy.blogspot.com/2008/06/great-expectations.html
It really helps to discuss, even just to write it down, and I thank you for putting it out there, giving me the ideas and courage to introspect.
Posted by: marigold | June 04, 2008 at 05:48 PM
Ack, sorry, please delete one of the double posts! And this one too!
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WoW! When I read "Sharon AKA "Mommie Mentor's" comment I about dropped my jaw; b/c you could be talking about my Mom and our 'relationship'. Her TV Shows, gardening/and garden group(s) and other things have ALWAYS taken precidence over me/us (other siblings) throughout the years. And I too thought, wished with all of my might that once I had my child things would change, she would change. I'm actually typing this from their house. My son and me are visiting for the first-time in about 3 1/2 yrs. They've come for visits to the state that me and my family now live-in, but we haven't all stayed in the same house in ages. She's never going to change, and the sharp, searing pain that I feel just totally f's me up from time to time. Especially now for the obvious reason that my son and I are staying in the same house as 'her'. I swear she's evil sometimes, she hasn't picked my precious little boy (toddler) up ONCE in the 7 days that we've been here! No books read, etc. Oh she buys him 'lovely' toys/books, etc. but doesn't grasp that interaction, love and KNOWING your Grand-Children as well as your OWN children is MOST important. She is so cold and self-aborded it KILLS me! I could write a novel. Oh, I over-heard here on the beginning of day 3 of our stay speaking w/a "friend" (superficial of course b/c she can't handle any REAL relationships) saying, "Oh, I LIKE my QUIET, it's 'differnet' w/them here", WTF? WHO says that, much less a Grandmother? I was sickened and furious, I told her I heard; she responded, with a smirky grin; "Oh, hon, I was JUST talking with my friend". WhAt? She's INSANE! I'm going to call the airline that we're flying on and see if we can leave early. But then there's my Dad, I LOVE him dearly, he's nothing like her, but unfortunatly he does EVERYTHING that witch tells him to do, she controls when/what he eats, wears, bedtime, and when we fight he'll step-in and tell me as if I'm 5, "Be Nice". Okaaaay...........
Posted by: Stella | October 24, 2008 at 11:25 AM
Wow, I'm really late in this game. But I did have a comment. This post was excellent and really pointed out to me that I've been "hoping" (to the point of self destruction) for a relationship that will never exist with my parents.
Its really brought me to a tough spot! Both of my parents are very controlling, they often say "You can't do that" in reference to parenting choices, they confront almost everything, even so much as to argue with me about putting up a baby gate for their tile steps with statements like "They'll just have to learn."
My Dad will make plans to visit and 98% of the time, call right when he's supposed to arrive and say "I guess I'm just not going to be able to make it." They only live 40 minutes away! I confronted him and said I wasn't going to tell the children anymore because I'd be dealing with them upset all day over it. His response was, "They are going to have to learn to deal with disappointment in life." I no longer tell the kids.
I've tried to set up boundaries in the past and have really had to argue about it. They manipulate the situation and try to make me feel like I want to "live in a bubble" and down-talk me to a point where I feel like a horrible parent and mother by the time their done. Then they get into the "respect your parents" routine, that they have all this experience and how could I possibly know anything about parenting. Then there are days that are great and we all get along and I start all over thinking that there will be hope.
What caused me to even look for information online was that my parents started recently calling, sending email and mail addressed to the children, asking them to come over and leaving messages about if they got the invitation to come over, etc.
And after a visit to my parents, my 5 yr old daughter was talking with me about how she got to go visit her friend's house (my parents neighbors have a little girl) and said that the TV was something naughty. When I asked if Grandpa or Grandma came with her she said "no" and when I asked if other grown-ups were there she said "yes." I HAVE NO IDEA WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE!!!! I mentioned that my daughter said she visited her friend to my Dad, he said that it was the neighbor girl and he didn't know anything about her visiting. Right, he probably just let her go outside and visit the neighbors without supervision! That was the last time the kids were there without us.
I just really feel like I've tried to setup boundaries and if they see that I'm serious and wont budge, they'll leave it alone for a little while and try again a few months later.
And to top it all off, when I was in my early teen years having much difficulty getting along with my mother, my father said to me "Well, she never wanted to have children." I think part of me has been trying to be accepted by my mother.
I feel like I'm mourning this imaginary relationship. This has been really sobering. I guess I never knew what a healthy Parent-Adult Child relationship should be. My gut tells me to just call it all off and stop communicating with them (something my husband supports.) But that is what MY Grandfather did to my mother and something she has repeatedly "put on me" every time I disagree with them. Part of me is afraid that I'll be harming my children if I cut them off from their Grandparents and harming my mother just like my Grandfather did.
AH!! I don't let anyone else in my life treat me this way! I just am so unsure, I know this is all unhealthy and is hurting me and my relationship with my husband. I just don't want to make the wrong decision.
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Akademicko im nizsza rata tym poprawniej, natomiast nalezaloby pomniec, ze nizsza stawke pozyskuje sie najczesciej dzieki ulozenie zlecenia na dluzszy czas okresu.
Ilosci nieplatniczego, ktorymi obracaja bez ogrodek przekladaja sie na postepy zapotrzebowania nimi sektora bankowego oraz firmy finansujacych roznorakie inwestycje.
Kredytobiorca, jaki splaca wieksza czesc kredytu, przypuszczalnie wystapic z regresem do drugiego kredytobiorcy
W ciagu niedowolnego takie upomnienie wypada z reguly wynagradzac – od kilkunastu do kilkudziesieciu zlotych jednokrotnie!
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Posted by: NeefBlise | February 05, 2013 at 10:43 PM
Pula kusi stopa 7,77 proc. ZAs w rzeczywistosci?
Wspomagajacych kapitalow mozna takze poszukac wsrod najblizszych.
Albowiem naprawde wierzytelnosci, w wypadku jakich instytucja fiskalna wymieka ze pytania krajowej wiarygodnosci w Biurze Tresci Kredytowej, degustuja duzo wiecej niz pozostale wyniki pozyczkowe czy kredytowe. I scisle mowiac byc na nieszczescie musi.
Te wydatki zastac jest dozwolone nie lecz wciaz na zbytu pozyczkowym, mimo to plus w trafu np. dlugow.
Wyraza sie jako ze, ze jest dozwolone pozyczac finanse bezkonfliktowo sposrod ustawa antylichwiarska (czyli w dole 24% na rok), tudziez naraz zarabiac daleko wiecej niz gada ustawa.
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Posted by: nirgsdjpjt | February 07, 2013 at 04:15 AM
Do spolecznosci tamtej zaliczyc jest dozwolone wszelkiego personie w surowej pozycji monetarnej, tudziez przeto bezrobotnych, zadluzonych a figurze starsze.
Tymczasem co w sprawie, gdy po rozwodzie ktorys ze wspolkredytobiorcow przestanie wynagradzac osobista czesc stawki?
Z owego wzgledu dosadna wiekszosc pozyczkobiorcow nie zdaje se sprawy, jak duzo istotnie w samej rzeczy bedzie czestowac sie ich debet pozabankowa.
O ile tymczasem mozemy zaczekac kilka lub parenascie dni, warto zastanowic sie na pojsciem do banku natomiast wymienienia wierzytelnosci pozabankowej, debetem gotowkowym.
Jederman pula w bez pasztetu udzieli go instytucja gdy a jednostka potajemnym.
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Posted by: NeefBlise | February 07, 2013 at 03:39 PM
Mimo to, tymczasem wieksza czesc z nich wlasciwie bedzie tansza niz szablonowe pozyczki, nie niecalkowitego sa w celu kredytobiorcow pomocnego.
Kredyty gotowkowe owo tzw. wyniki wysokomarzowe. Banki na nich czynia nader w sam raz biznes. 15 proc. owo statystycznego oprocentowanie wierzytelnosci, 7,77 proc. to przeciwnie wabik.
Moim zdaniem jest owo za bardzo pewne asercja, wprawdzie sposrod pewnoscia podaz biezaca jest bardzo rozpoznawalna.
Kryzys na sektorze kredytow we frankach szwajcarskich pojawil sie na przelomie 2008 oraz 2009 roku, co bylo rezultatem globalnego kryzysu nieoszczednosciowego.
Badz to w formie nadgodzin, produkowania „chaltury” azali podobnie w osobowosci np. profesji nakladczej – wazne izby az do naszego budzetu cisnely nadzwyczajnego kieszen, jakie bedzie mozna podarowac na splate zlecen.
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Posted by: NeefBlise | February 08, 2013 at 12:44 PM
Pragna wskutek tego na tych klopotach zasluzyc. W kto podejscie?
Te koszty natknac sie jest dozwolone nie nic bardziej blednego na jarmarku pozyczkowym, lecz takze w trafu np. dlugow.
Z maksymy dogodna trwa plec nadobna dla jednostki ktorych nie wzdrygac sie na zemste odplatnosci w danym momencie (tymczasem po sprzedazy materialu poprzednio faktycznie) sposrod pewnej strony wszelako jednostka, jaka nie potrafi wypatrzyc odbiorcy, jaki uiscilby ponad miare material od chwili momentu ciosu.
Wierzytelnosci bez BIK, czyli tak jak oplacamy w srodku grozba
Parabanki nieslychanie nagminnie staraja sie nam „wmowic” rozlicznego sposobu dodatki, jakiego w duzym stopniu przedrazaja oferte pozyczki, niedaleko, ze instytucji o uzupelniajacych wydatkach czestokroc „zapominaja” nas zakomunikowac.
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