Getting along with your parents as an adult, part 3: The adult child's responsibility

Some notes about Num-Num and my mom's posts: Let's remember that they're posting these things now, in hindsight. So they're summaries of all the things they tried to do over the years, not a daily To Do list.

(3 am: Be thrilled to see preschooler when she screams "Mama! I had a nightmare! Can I come sleep with you?"
6:30 am: Wake up and tell husband joke, just to show you haven't lost yourself and the sense of humor that attracted him.
9 am: Laugh. Then laugh some more.
9:10 am: Share faith and values. Use finger puppets.
10 am: When you accidentally break off side mirror on car while handing sippy cup to kid strapped into back seat while backing up because you're late to doctor's appointment, be sure to say "Well, that was a good experiment, wasn't it?" instead of "Fucking fuck!"
1 pm: Perfect brownie recipe.)

I read somewhere that with parenting, 70% is perfect. Hitting your ideals and goals 70% of the time means you're doing everything right. That's something to think about as you step on a Matchbox car or Polly Pocket in your bare feet.

Oh, and that Brenda lady who wrote about entertaining your kids can bite me. Hard. Twice. I can't imagine my mom "entertaining" me. What she did was do a lot of writing with her manual typewriter on the end of the dining table. And when I came to talk to her she'd get me to dictate and then she'd type up my poem or whatever I'd told her. (She wanted me to understand that my words were worth writing down.) Num-Num told me that she wasn't a down-on-the-floor-playing kind of mom, but fortunately she was raising her son in the city, so they'd go out and walk, and she'd go as slow as her son wanted to go, and she'd answer all his questions to the best of her ability.

There are all sorts of ways to let your child know that s/he matters. Most of them don't require being perfect, or even all that competent.

But on to the promised topic for today: Your responsibilities as an adult child.

I think there are two things that adult children have a responsibility to do to/for/with our parents:

1. Try to understand as much as possible what's motivating them, and
2. Figure out where our boundaries are and enforce them.

Trying to figure out why they're acting like they do

Figuring out what's motivating a parent can benefit both of you if the relationship is basically healthy. If the relationship isn't essentially sound, figuring out what's motivating your parent will help you far more than it'll help the parent.

It's important to note that understanding why your parent acts the way s/he does toward you (and your kids and everyone else) doesn't mean that you either blame them or absolve them of responsibility. It just means that you allow yourself to see your parent, the behavior, and your interactions as part of a system instead of just as random events. It's unbelievably freeing to realize that it's not just something about you that makes your parent act that way.

I think some a good examples of this from the comments is hush's comment on Num-Num's post about her aunt faking illness to get away from hush's mom and how that made hush realize that it wasn't her fault but was something her mom was dealing with instead. And that she couldn't change it. Knowing is at least half the battle.

It's also possible that when you figure out the motivation behind the behavior you can figure out how to switch things up so the issue disappears. I think that tons of the critical words parents level on their adult children about parenting decisions are because the parents feel indicted by the different decisions their children make. I mean, think about it--when our parents were raising us they were told to take speed during pregnancy so they didn't gain too much weight, to start rice cereal at 2 or 3 weeks, and that crying was important because it "exercised our lungs." If now they're being told that the things they did with us were bad, then a certain number of them are going to end up feeling guilty or bad about that, and like we're judging them. Even the idea that now we put babies to sleep on their backs can seem like we're judging our parents! If your mom is already having a hard time figuring out how she feels about being a grandmother (because being a grandmother means she's old, right?), and is conflicted about your taking the ultimate step toward independence and also replacing her, then how crappy is she going to feel that apparently now everything she did with you was wrong?

Obviously that doesn't give her license to be a jerk to you.  But it's possible that you could increase connection between the two of you by treating her as just another mom who was doing the best for her kid with what she knew at the time, and specifically asking her what they were told to do back then. Then discuss how experts have changed over the years. Keeping it on the level of "of course we all do what the latest research tells us to do because we want to do the right thing" makes it less personal and more about how science and research have advanced over the years. It wouldn't hurt to bring up the idea that when your baby is grown they'll probably do things differently than you're doing them now, too.

Or you might realize that knowing why it's happening makes it not bother you so much. In the case of a parent who is having problems with the idea of being a grandparent because it means getting old, just knowing that might be enough to make it not bother you so much. After all, it's hard to be shoved into a new role, but most people grow into it eventually. If it's bugging you but not really hurting your feelings irreparably, maybe knowing it'll pass eventually is enough.

The kicker here, of course, is that all this figuring out, making connection, and cutting slack is easier for the people who already have good relationships with their parents. So for pete's sake, don't feel guilty if you can't even conceive of what it would be like for your mom's problem with becoming a grandmother not to bother you. If your parents didn't lay the groundwork for an open, healthily-connected relationship with you, then there's not much you can do about it, except for...

Setting boundaries

Holly commented yesterday:

"I find the recurring theme of "boundaries" interesting from both yesterday's and today's post. Probably someone who is able to "give up her own self" for her children (or spouse), will later not respect the "self of the adult child." If you don't have boundaries for yourself, how will you help create and allow boundaries for your child?"

So by choosing and setting boundaries not only are you giving your parent a shot at at least one normal healthy relationship, you're also helping reestablish a baseline for yourself. Which, in turn, is going to help you be a better parent and help your children as well. Because when your kids are adults, none of you will be in distress about the boundaries, because you did all the heavy lifting right now.

Again, this is going to be easier if you already have a good relationship with your parent. (Which means your parent understood or worked on developing healthy boundaries, and was able to communicate that to you in at least some part.)

For those of you that are basically working alone and starting from scratch, here are some questions I'd start asking myself to help sort out where to start:

• What can I reasonably get from my parent?
• Is that enough?
• If not, is there someplace else I can get that so I'm able to let go of the need to get it from my parent?
• What am I willing to give up to get something from my parent?
• If I take steps to setting some boundaries, do I have a way to check myself so I don't get guilted or manipulated into abandoning those boundaries just to keep peace or win approval?
• Am I prepared for short-term anger and hostility when I start to draw some boundaries?
• Is there anyone else who knows my parent who can help me troubleshoot and back me up in my plan?

It sounds kind of stark and non-organic to have to look at it as a transaction. But as Kenny Rogers says, "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run."*

I'm imagining it wouldn't hurt, if your relationship with your parent is seriously labyrinthine, to read some stuff about negotiating, like Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In. (OK, this is hilarious: When I went to get the Amazon link I searched "getting to yes" and the book right under the GTY book is entitled Are Your Parents Driving You Crazy? So you're not alone, apparently.)

This may mean limiting the amount of time you spend with your parents, or limiting the location. A friend recently hit upon the brilliant idea of doing a Family Vacation with her in-laws every year to someplace like Disneyworld because then the jockeying for superiority over who was hosting is lessened. Her in-laws are still horrible, but not having them in her house or being held hostage in theirs is enough to make visits bearable. And her kids get to spend time with their grandparents while making happy memories. (We'll talk about protecting your kids from your parents' bad behavior tomorrow.)

Since you've already figured out why your parents act the way they do, you're released from the idea that you "should" do one thing or the other. It's all part of a system, right? Not you being a Good Daughter. So you can make decisions about what you can accept based on reality instead of living up to an unattainable ideal.

Of course it may also mean that you give up on what was your dream for a close relationship, and maintain perfunctory contact, but get your emotional needs met someplace else. You are a worthwhile person and your kids are amazing--there are plenty of people who would be thrilled to become your extended family. Sometimes the idea of walking away to save yourself is worse than actually doing it.

Holy crap, that was long. But this is important. Comments?


* If you end up with that song in your head for the rest of the day, I apologize sincerely. If it makes you feel any better I probably can't shake it either.

Comments

[Jessicaion is]

So I just spent all of this time writing a very LONG comment at the end of the last post that basically says that I was disapointed because I felt like this part of the discussion was missing from the last two threads. Because, duh, Moxie wanted us to talk about it here. So ignore all of that. Sorry.

My question is this--I feel like I have done all of the analytical stuff that Moxie mentions. I described my problem with my mother at length in my other comment, but basically while a wonderful and and lving person in many ways, she is much less attached to her children as adults than what most people (me strongly included) would define as normal.

I have come to terms that her behavior isn't my fault, and that she does it to almost everyone else related to her. I have set up personal limits and have lowered my expectations. I have no feelings of guilt about what I could be doing to fix the situation. I have given up on my dream of a "normal" mother/daughter relationship and have built a great support network with my sister, aunt, cousin and grandmother. I try to appreciate her for who she is and rarely compare her to my relatively "normal" MIL. I try and deal with the fact that my husband can't relate to a mother acting this way AT ALL and this sometimes spills over into our relationship. I try to protect my kids from the bad parts and expose them to her many great qualities. I have been in therapy. Multiple times.

It's all helped. I am much more at peace with it than I was. But I still, every day, feel this great big HOLE in my life that none of these substutions and coping mechanisms will ever completely fill. I feel like I have faked it and not made it on this one for years, and I don't know that I will ever get over it. Does anyone else feel this way? What do you do?

[Jilly]

After understanding my mother's motivation and setting boundaries, I am left with an absolute pile of anger that I don't know what to do with. Feeling rejected as an adult because your needs aren't being treated as a higher priority than your mother's stings as much as it would if you were a 5 year old child. I realise how petulant that sounds, but it's my truth. It's as if we hit an age and our parents decide that we can fend for ourselves, revealing all their emotional limitations. I find this shifting landscape to be incredibly confronting.

In my most honest moments, I feel like screaming [to my mother] "You are the mother! You don't get to put your personal needs and issues ahead of mine or to shy away from my needs to protect your own! Ever! Even if I'm 30, 40 or 50! If you have issues, deal with them! Don't put them on me! I'm still the child in this relationship. Would you do this to me if I were 10 years old?!"

I guess what I'm saying is that I really don't want to peak behind the curtains of Oz ... I'd rather go on believing in the wizard for the rest of my life. I just want my mom to be a mom, not a human peer. I've got plenty of those.

[Catherine]

I'm so sorry; I have nothing useful to contribute here; I haven't even read the whole post, much less the two previous posts in the series, but I just had to say that this:

"9:10 am: Share faith and values. Use finger puppets"

made my whole morning. You're my hero!

[Shandra]

I agree with both these points.

My mother's mother hated kids. She had a lot of love for family but not a lot of like. Understanding that's how my mother grew up does provide a lot of insight. I think my mother did try very, very hard.

But given all that and knowing that I love her and will care for her in her old age and all that, my boundary with her is to try not to expect much. She does help with my son a lot, but always on her terms.

But emotionally it's still difficult. Having a child opens those wounds up again in a new way I find.

[anonforthistime]

Another great post – lots to think about. So here’s my situation and my question. My issue is that my relationship is very different with my two parents. My relationship with my father has long been a source of sadness and anger for me. Without going into detail guilt, anger, petulance, and overall lack of interest on his part from the time I was small have all combined to the point where, about 12 months ago with lots of support from my husband, I finally moved to a place of indifference and pity towards him. Towards my mother though my feelings are more complicated – she is a lovely woman who has trouble standing up to my father. I would love to be close to her and miss that closeness but each time I try I can’t get past the fact that she never protected me or my siblings from my father when we were growing up. I think there is such a lack of trust there now that it is hard for me to imagine having a very close relationship with her – something I am more slowly coming to terms with. However, I do love her and would love her to be a part of my son’s life both for him and for her, but also as the basis for a new grown up mother –daughter relationship. We live 12 hours by plane away from my parents and are soon going to increase that to 28 hours so long-stay holidays are really the only way for her to be part of my son’s daily life.

The problem is therefore how do you set different boundaries for two different relationships with the two parents? My boundary setting with my father basically involves not spending holidays of more than 2 or 3 days (if that) with my father or exposing my son to his temper and behaviour. My mother can (sort of) understand my attitude to my father but would take my side over his and as such would not come to visit on her own etc. Do I just have to accept that she and I and my son will not have the relationship that I am hoping for and learn to deal with the sadness and the mountains of guilt that come with that?

[Joy]

I just want to totally apologize for posting that Brenda Lady's quote yesterday. I feel awful that it made anyone feel bad, and that it was so totally inappropriate with respect to Moxie's Mom's beautiful words. I'm very, very sorry Moxie.

[michelle]

I think some of Moxie's advice is spot on- particularly the part about how understanding your parent's motivation is likely to help YOU more than the parent.

For me, though (and it sounds like at least one other poster) there is a great temptation to get mired in my anger over all of the things my Mom got wrong. In all fairness, my Mom is mentally ill and has been ill my whole life and she DID get a lot wrong.

But still, what has worked for me is to set SOME boundaries over things that are really crucial and I'm ready to fight over, if necessary. Beyond that, I really think that at some point you have to get over the hurts of your youth. I don't mean ignoring current bad behavior, but I think things have improved a lot with my Mom since I started framing the question as "what can I do now to make things better for myself and my kids" rather than "what are my Mom's problems and how have they impacted me over the years."

[hedra]

@Jessication is: It takes time for those wounds to close and heal. At least five years, IME, to release all the pain at the primary level, mourn the loss, let the scars grow over, find new resources to fill in a little more of the gap. And then it's still tender and sore, and unexpected bumps and jostles ache and sting. My mom's resolution with her step-mom didn't come until her step-mom was a few months away from death with terminal congestive heart failure. My mom was nearly 70. She never really got the resolution with her own mom (who died young), nor really with her aunt (who had played a large role in her life), and certainly not with her father (who was a waste of space, to put it very mildly). She got one resolution out of three, and that one quite late.

But it was all okay, in time. It was healed enough. There were certainly times that she was drowning and needed a hand to reach for, and even her sister would not give it (in fact, her sister more often pushed her down and stood on her head). She mourned the losses, and let the next layer of scar grow in, and worked the other relationships, and let the wounds teach her how important some things are, and to not take them lightly. She healed. She became whole. Lacks were just lacks, and not holes, over time. And if you'd asked her if that was even possible at the time, she'd have turned away, certain that you were wrong. The wound hurts like forever.

And it still heals.

I also wonder what your mom believed about parenting, what she felt, that leaves her where she is - did she make her way through the early years by promising her that she got to stop when you were grown, and never revisit that promise to herself? And I contrast your reaction (and more so, Jilly's), with mine, where I find myself gradually moving into the caretaker position with my mom, keeping a light eye on her finances (which soooo don't need my help, LOL! But we share information so that when she does need help, I'll already know what I'm looking at), keeping a closer eye on her health, watching for changes in the pattern of lags in her memory and function.

We've been mutually parental for a while, now - yes, she parents me still (rarely), but I also parent her. It's not quite a total peer relationship, and not quite a friendship, either. She started coming to me for advice for how to deal with her family years back, easing into the idea that my insights from my place in the family tree might prove more valuable than hers at times. Slowly, we've been working through the shift in balance, as someone said here yesterday, holding hands with both generations - the one below rising, the one above settling lower.

It's hard to remember from here wanting to have her be my Mom, and only my mom in the mothering way. In part perhaps because I was never one to take refuge in her arms, but also because we've so gradually interwoven the transition - intentionally on her part - so that if I need to catch her in a sudden fall, it won't be too much a shock to either of us.

Not that there wasn't any discomfort or hesitation in the process. I resisted the idea of responsibility for her - she is etneral, no? MOTHER, not herself. But I've watched as she's slowly started losing ground to age, seen her prune her life back to only the wood that can still support growth, and known that she was right - her peak was past in that sense, and I was now peer, and still in a rising arc while hers flattened out and declined. I'm sharply aware of her mortality every time I see her. And of her declining abilities, now accelerated with the onset of arthritis.

I have had those moments, of denial and refusal to accept the change - the times when I have tried to hold back the transition with my hands, like trying to stop the sea. Mainly, though, they've been for my kids - I want her to stop aging so that my kids can grow up knowing her as she was, so they remember her running after them, not being so careful with her gait. In part, I want them to remember her as I remember her. But time doesn't allow that. And so I mourn a little more, and then focus on my gratitude that she was even here at all, that they had the chance to meet her, to know her, and to (hopefully) remember her. It's more grace than she got, and more than so many others get.

@Jilly, the cry of NO! is the first cry of grief. It's okay, and allowed. Embrace it. It will ease faster if you accept that the act of stubborn, hurt denial is part of the process, too. As much as that sucks, it definitely sounds normal to me, and real, and valid.

@Moxie, you nailed exactly my method for creating common ground in the conversations with the elder generation. We ARE the same, you and me (to them). We want the same things, strive for the same things. You found your resources, I found mine. You listened to your experts, I listen to mine. You wanted so much for us to be safe, to grow up strong, to be able. And so do I. The world has changed, and that is all - we know different things now than we did then. Some things may work better, but some of what we 'know' now may also be mistaken. So we measure the knowledge against our instincts, and try to find a way between the raindrops.

I've found that telling them that I am modeling myself on them - on their dedication to growing us as best we possibly could be grown - really changes the tone. It also allows *me* another layer of release, healing, and forgiveness. And it continues - I was just talking with my mom about the issues of ownership, of how my step-dad was prone to setting up garage sales and selling our toys (with minimal time and attention spent to having us rescue the important ones - I can remember begging a friend to buy my favorite stuffed animal, so that at least I'd know it had a good home...), and talking about the challenges she had negotiating her marriage with him, trying to balance everyone's needs, and it never being balanced, no matter how hard she tried. I do the same thing, working to make sure that ep's sanity is preserved (and I know my step-dad had issues with 'stuff' and ownership and autonomy), and trying to find a way to do that while simultaneously meeting the needs of four very different children. (He does the same, as well, which is a step up from my step-dad, who didn't *get* that until his next marriage and two subsequent kids - but at least he *got* it eventually.) And so, another bit processed and worked through, and another place where we are the same, she and I. Common ground is valuable.

At the same time, every time I find common ground with her, it makes that much clearer that she didn't have common ground with her parents' generation - there just wasn't that much intention involved. Things were just done, and not considered. They were done because of rules and order and ideals and theology and personal needs, and without regard to anyone else's needs. And that is still happening in many places. The best I can offer on that is that my mom finds it freeing and beautiful to watch what SHOULD be happening coming forth in the next generation. I've made it clear that my success stems from hers. Without her sometimes mangled attempts to value us as separate beings, I would not be able to do what I do as a mother (mangling it even in my turn, but mangling it closer to my goal).

Someone once asked me how I'd grade myself as a mother. I said I'd have to wait and see how my children parent (presuming any have kids) before I could even begin to determine. And I think that's part of the responsibility on my side, too - to hold off on assuming the relationship is final, complete, or done. We're ever-changing beings, including our parents. There's an assumption that the relationship is eternal, that it is the same every day. But every day we are all different. Every day my kids are different, but every day, so am I. The dynamic relationship I have upwards as well as downwards through the generations (and across within) are all organic things. It is the static relationships that seem unnatural, frozen in time. There definitely are plateaus of little change, but they're still organic processes. Respecting that - upwards with my parents included - is part of my job.

[the milliner]

One interesting thing that occurred to me while reading the comments is the affect that aging has on our parents, and consequently, their relationship to us as their adult kids. And by aging, I don't just mean 'feeling old', but also the loss of physical strength, mental assuredness, illness, and general control over one's life.

I have a great relationship with my Mum, (and she definitely supports me and still acts like a Mum, without smothering me, and she recognizes I am an adult who makes my own decisions) so I know it's probably easier for me to be more forgiving as her behaviour slowly changes over the years.

My Mum has definitely become more paranoid, more physically challenged, more of a procrastinator & unable to get rid of stuff in her house (which I expect I will totally follow in her footsteps!!). My SIL, and to some degree, my brother get totally frustrated with this. But I have a different POV. Things have changed for my Mum in her life, and I have empathy for that. She takes care of my aging - 90 years old! - grandmother, and bears the
responsibility for her much more than her brother or sister, and on top, for the last 8+ years has been taking care of my father, who, due to various illnesses has become less able to take care of himself, needs to have someone around every day, and has become much more obstinate and basically can be a pain in the ass when he wants to be.

Since my Mum has retired, she's just basically changed jobs. I almost think it was easier for her to go to work.

All this to say, I have empathy for that. It can't be easy. And all the time, her own health, though good, is still slowly declining. It's harder to do the gardening. It's harder to clean the house. My parents probably should move to an appartment. But I know this is a decision my Mum struggles with. I can put myself in her shoes, and understand why she hesitates. Until it is a safety issue, I won't push my Mum & Dad to move, just so it's more convenient / less worrisome for me. I'll bring it up, but I won't push.

All this, and she still manages to light up when I call, she keeps in regular touch with me, and her support, though changed with her life reality now, is still there. I'm only happy to re-pay that and start caring for her.

And even though my father can be a great pain and childish & selfish at times now, I find that I, for the most part, have great empathy for him. He is very much a different person than before he was sick. It can't be easy when you are loosing control over your life & people have to do things, most things, for you (my Dad was always an independant spirit before he got sick). Sure, we still butt heads (as we always did - two strong independant spirits), and have our struggles, but I don't loose my empathy for him. At my most exasperated, I am frustrated with his illnesses, and his inability to mentally overcome them. But, that's easy for me to say. I have not been in his situation.

All this to say that as parents age it can be very difficult for the adult children to manage this. It's scary, it turns everything on it's head, and it can contribute to taking something away from you - your parents have other issues to deal with that are scary for them. You have to re-negotiate your relationship with your parents given the new circumstances. I think that's part of our responsibility as adult kids.

[Moxie]

Joy, I didn't mean to make you feel bad at all about posting the Brenda whats-her-name thing! In fact, I'm glad that you did because I think it shows us something about the fairy-tale expectations that some of us have about what we should be able to do as parents. And maybe Brenda did do that stuff with her kids, sometimes. But at the same time, can you imagine if your mom never left you alone because she was always "on" with you? I'm glad you posted it. But I'm also going to keep ridiculing it.;-)

[beatrice]

Funny that this topic should come up. My MIL is going through what appears to be a midlife crisis, complete with getting back together with her high school boyfriend and acting like an adolescent. Last weekend, she took my 13 month old for a ride on an ATV with a 17 year old driving. When confronted, she laughed it off and told me A) it didn't go that fast and B) she'd never do anything to hurt the baby.
So my question is that while I can see how things have "changed" since she had kids, and how the "rules" are now different, how the fudge do I keep her from doing things that physically endanger my child?!? My husband and I are coming to the conclusion that we're just not going to be able to let our kid be alone with her grandmother, because we can't trust that grandma isn't going to decide to do something that's "perfectly safe" according to her (ride in a car without a carseat, etc.) but that gives me the vapors. That's not much of a solution, though, and I'm really wondering what our options are. We've tried to talk to her, we've begged her to follow our rules, she just. doesn't. care. She's cast my husband as "the man" who's trying to ruin her fun, and me as an uptight, overprotective mom who's trying to keep her from having fun with her granddaughter.
Can you tell it's driving me crazy? I want my kid to have a relationship with her grandmother, but not if it means a toddler riding on a motorcycle, you know?

[hedra]

@Joy, I think it was valuable - even though it was valuable by highlighting pain.

And hey, I'd never have had the image of Moxie with the finger puppets without it. ;)

The issue is a great talking point. It's important. And it might have been somewhat glossed by without the degree of reaction it got. The 70% rule as reminder is important, and ... we'd have gotten there, but a bunch of people would have felt a bit off by then, and might not have been able to put a finger on it.

(I also had to laugh at the schedule. Out loud, at work.)

@anonforthisone, there are a lot of little ways between the ends of the spectrum there. They take some creativity. My mom has one grandchild who is opposite coast. They see her MAYBE every year to two years. It is where they've settled their mutual process, and not where my mom would prefer - no idea if it is where my brother would prefer, and I haven't asked. So, my mom has a phone relationship with her grandson. Sends him books, gets photos in return. That kind of relationship does work, and can be done more intentionally. We did the same with my great-aunt and my kids - my mom would call her, and tell a story to/with the kids about flying out to visit her, and what they'd do, and what they'd see on the way. Speaker phone would be fine. Part of those ideas probably were kicked off by my dad, who when he was overseas would take a tape recorder and his camera, and walk through a market place or somewhere else, recording his thoughts and observations, capturing the images in his camera, and sending the lot to us (in my mind, to me). My mom (even though they were at that point divorced), would play the audio for us, and we'd look at the photos, and I'd dream of watching Thai princesses dance for weeks. Save the in-person visits for rare things, and relate over the phone or by way of 'having her narrate her daily life' to him (or at least the more interesting bits) or by way of finding a role she can explore at a distance (library genie magically sending books - and she can read them on tape to him, first, which allows another layer of contact), etc. There are ways. Good luck!

[M]

Great post - but I have one comment re: boundaries. Depending on your parents/relationship, etc. it may be more than "short term" anger and hostility. The boundaries you set may be boundaries that the other party believes that they can't live with and terminates the relationship over. Which is not an argument for not setting boundaries, but rather an event that should be planned for. My solution to my relationship with my father has consisted of the above, with the additional thought in mind that the worst case scenario is that he terminates the relationship. And maybe that would not be such a bad thing. Basically, you cannot undertake any of this expecting that it will change the individual's behavior. As my godmother says the key is low/no expectations and the serenity prayer. oh, and realizing that we are still human and therefore, disappointment will still occur (despite our best efforts).

[eep]

@Jessication is, I posted this in the other thread this morning in response to your comment. Hedra has gone back to that thread with more comments, too. I include my post here as it is more relavent today than it was yesterday.

"Oh boy, I can relate. Your mother sounds a lot like mine. She was wonderful, funny, encouraging, and had a light hand when I was a child, but as I became a teenager she slowly began to detach. She often doesn't check her phone messages or email for days, and usually doesn't answer the phone. She flakes out on plans we make regularly. If she agrees to do some babysitting or help me in some way I try to have a backup because it is likely that something will "come up." She lives less than 2 hours away, but has seen my 11 month old fewer times than my in-laws who live 10 hours away.

I feel like she is peripheral to my life, an interesting diversion that I get to observe every few months. I am so sad that she won't make a greater effort to be a source of delight in my son's life, and guilty about the anger and hurt I feel. I try to meet her half way, but when I do that I usually end up standing alone, waiting for her to show up. It's tiring and demoralizing. I have been working really hard to quit taking it personally. Her inability to get her stuff together so that she can visit for an afternoon is not an indictment of me. It isn't that she doesn't like me, or like my son. Her problems are hers, and my job is to protect my son from the disappointment that she will undoubtedly cause him when she cancels plans because she fell asleep on the couch, or she has a headache, or a stomach ache, or she has to go to the store, or whatever it is this time.

This is my coping mechanism: remember that her problems are hers, and it isn't my place, or even within my power, to fix them. I just don't want my son to think she doesn't like him."

[Julie]

Regarding those of you dealing with parents (mothers, mostly it seems, though dads qualify in this post too) who seem to have checked out of their parenting duties and left you on your own.....I keep thinking of the term "arrested development". My dh has this to a great extent due to something traumatic that happened in his family when he was eleven. Whenever he is under great stress, or we are in an argument and he feels backed into a corner, he suddenly starts behaving like he's eleven. It's really annoying in a spouse. Who wants to be married to a petulant 11 year old?

But I am wondering, like Moxie suggested, if there is some motivation behind your mothers behaving like this, at what age (yours) they started acting this way (and I realize for some it has been this way for your entire life, but for others it was a slow transition to "done....now I can check out") and what might have happened to them at that same age themselves.

For many of us, our mothers grew up in a confusing time of "be free, do your own thing, burn your bra, don't let anyone own you" mixed in with "Your greatest accomplishment will be to marry and raise children". Talk about mixed messages! Perhaps there were some who decided to do what was expected (marriage and children) at a younger age than we do now and there might be some residual resentment over the choices you had available to you versus the choices (perceived or real) that were available to them.

There are times when I definitely perceive some resentment from my mom - mostly when I make choices for myself that she feels were not choices available to her at the time.....almost entirely surrounding me taking time for myself (to go to a movie, to get a massage, to loaf around my house alone) while she watches Alex. Voluntarily, I might add. And while she *wants* me to have time to relax and recharge, I get a very clear sense of judgement from her despite me being her daughter and wanting me to be healthy mentally. She never really got that time when we were little. She was either working her ass off (single mom, no support from our dad), or at home with us.

I'm not sure if this is making sense, or if I've bird-walked waaaay off my original topic. But looking at things from your mother's perspective, trying to figure out what was going on with them when they were our age and what the expectations were, the choices available were.....something to think about. It won't take away any of the hurt you feel or the abandonment of missing out on the mother/daughter relationship as an adult, but understanding it might give you some insight into what is going on in her head and allow you to step away from it just slightly.

[Dana]

I have viewed my relationship with my mom in a different light since S was born...

I hope and pray that my child will be quick to forgive, because as hard as I try to "get it right" I will inevitably fail her somehow. Just like my mom did. She tried her best and yet there were (and still are) times where I have felt horribly failed by her. And other times where I felt kind of failed. And still other times where I was like, "YES! MY MOM ROCKS!"

One thing that I WANT from my own mother is for her to be my cheerleader. What I have is a worrywart who thinks out loud, with little to no filter between her thoughts (usually negative) and her words. So her "concerns" about the baby eating enough, the house being clean enough for a child to be crawling around, etc, tend to sound like she's just raining on my parade.

I know she doesn't mean it that way, she's not deliberately trying to drive me crazy, so I will say something along the lines of "I appreciate your concern over XYZ and I am aware/ doing something/ don't share your concern. Thanks for sharing 235,789 times but... I could use a little positive encouragement right now."

I say that at least once a day to her. There are times that I would love to just scream, but I have come to realize that she really does love me and that speaking in anger/ annoyance isn't going to do anyone any good.

[enu]

I think I differ on this point from the mainstream. I do not feel that parents of adult children owe them anything in particular. I think once the child is grown, the relationship is what you make of it, there's no set obligations as there are in the relationship until the child is grown.

Any ways, I've never gone through any of this soul searching and introspection, because, I guess, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I never understand at a gut level people who feel they aren't get anough... stuff... from their parents (compared to siblings, whatever). But I think in those cases they didn't get enough stuff.... (emotional stuff) from their parents as children. And as for intangibles - it's hard to draw from a well which is dry. Somethings may be negotiable or changeable.

I thought this post was going to be about how to relate to aging parents needs, actually, so I was surprised to see it was largely about the needs of the adult child. This is an area where I don't feel I've done my share, largely because my folks are so independant and competant, they don't want to worry anyone. So there are boundary issues on their part. I would like to be there more for them.

[pnuts mama]

so much to say from the past two days/posts, but *had* to laugh and acknowledge the "10 am: When you accidentally break off side mirror on car while handing sippy cup to kid strapped into back seat while backing up because you're late to doctor's appointment, be sure to say "Well, that was a good experiment, wasn't it?" instead of "Fucking fuck!"" comment for about a dozen reasons... :)

i have tons to say on this topic but am running late as usual so i will throw this in the mix early on and come back to more generational-based research (surprise! ha!) later.

in terms of the first point, trying to figure out why they act like they do, i would say that after you have worked through that process, there needs to be a step after 'understanding' that includes forgiveness. now, granted, like moxie's mom i'm coming from the posture of being a person of faith, so keep that in mind, but i've consistently seen so much of what so many posters and people i know personally and in research show as deep resentment and anger towards their parents (later, i promise, i'll try and highlight why this is perfectly normal for our generation moreso than previous ones for a variety of reasons and why you shouldn't feel guilty about it, just acknowledge, understand, accept, forgive, and move on- *sidenote* i'm not referring to cases of abuse, here) for basically being imperfect humans raising us and screwing it up left and right.

first, i wonder what our reaction to their mistakes will be with our own kids- do react so strongly swinging the opposite way that we are doomed to raise a generation who we'll be so attached to our kids will grow to a level of narcissism that makes the boomers look like altruists? i often wonder what our kids will be in therapy for "i slept in their bed til i was 14!!" "i nursed til i was 11!" (hyperbole intentional). we hope that all parents are acting in whatever way they do b/c they believe it's the right thing- us included- yet expect to get it wrong, a lot.

second, i think that it's hard to forgive our parents, even for the forgivable stuff. maybe it gets easier as we become parents, or maybe it becomes less easy as it highlights specific ways we feel as though they let us down as kids (and even now, as adults). but from a faith standpoint, i would say that forgiveness is the key part of being able to repair any relationship that is in disrepair, and oftentimes is the only way to simply move along on our own personal journeys. getting hung up on the "why" can be good for a while, help us clarify points, see more clearly, but ultimately, the need to forgive is the part that finishes the task and helps us move past a lot of the stuff that we get hurt by and stuck on. and by 'forgive', i don't mean excuse or forget or pretend stuff didn't happen or 'let off the hook' or not be held accountable- you need to do all that work before hand to be able to forgive, which basically is in your power, comes from you specifically, and allows you to be freed from whatever anger is tying you down to your past. it's hard for me to talk about this w/o the faith aspect, so sorry if it sounds choppy.

sorry to ramble, been meaning to post for days, be back later to read and post more!

[anononymousrightnow]

I am blessed to have a good relationship with my parents, we have pretty good boundaries established. My husband also gets along with my folks really well and we have lots of things in common with them - in addition to loving them, we like to travel, ski, go out to dinner, etc., with them.

His parents, that's a different story. They're good people. But we have nothing in common with them, and when we spend time together, it always feels like an awkward dinner party. Since the leave across the country from us, we only see them once or twice a year, but that week becomes the longest awkward dinner party of my life.

My husband did not have the best childhood - from 7 - 15 it was a very, very hard house to be in, with lots of anger and alcohol. By the time his parents sobered up, he was (not suprisingly) deep into teenage angst/drug abuse, and, by the time he was 21, he moved halfway across the country. He is an incredibly strong and caring person, and has taken a lot from his experience in terms of how he wants his family to be and how he wants to parent our son. That said, his relationship with his parents is pretty distant - they haven't really known him since he was seven, in my opinion. Though doesn't harbor resentment, he doesn't really want to be super close with them. And I have the fierce mama bear side of me conjured up by all of this and can get a little pissed on his behalf - I know this is not a really helpful reaction to have, but I'm being honest here and I feel that way sometimes.

During our last vacation visiting them we talked about this - the difference between the in-law relationships, how everything feels forced and false and surface-level with his folks, and how that's sad. To top it off, their health is not so great, and I am unclear on their financial situation, so it's always in the back of my mind that they might end up having to live with us, which may make us both insane. A friendly relationship won't remain friendly if put under that sort of pressure.

Long ramble to say - what about the inlaws? What about supporting ones partner in boundary negotation/relationship building with inlaws? What about your own relationship with your inlaws?

[grownchildren]

I enjoyed your insights about the bringing-up divide. You are right on point about trends and acceptable practices that vary from one generation to the next. My mother told me that when my brother and I were babies, her doctor told her to feed us at four-hour intervals--and not a moment before those four hours were up. She ended up dealing with a lot of squalling from her infants. Fortunately, things were different when I had babies, and now they are different again for my children. Rolling with these tides is what's at the heart of my blog on parenting adult children--which covers some of the same ground as you're covering now but from the older parents' point of view. I'm at grownchildren.net. Cone on by for a visit.

[hedra]

@enu, I think there's something of a generational thing there (or maybe family culture?)... my grandparents felt that kids owed parents once kids were adults, and parents no longer owed anything back. And oh, grandkids? NOT our problem, thanks! YOUR problem, we raised ours, we're D.O.N.E. done.

I think the responsibility/role of adult-parent to adult-child is definitely one that has to be negotiated individually. And forever. I noted elsewhere that the relationships are organic, not static. They are always evolving. And that means checking in (or out, if need be).

And I think there's also a subtle difference between 'they owe ME a relationship with care' and 'they owe our relationship some consideration' - which could just be negotiating to separate lives with little contact. The relationship does not end unless someone chooses to end it. It's IMHO appropriate to end it mutually rather than unilaterally. But mutual endings can also be beginnings, too. And they can be really good.

I'm always ending and beginning my relationship with my kids. I think that relationship will always be changing. I don't have any expectation that I'll be utterly separate from their lives, but I also know that I may well be pretty tangential. It's not an 'I owe you' but an honoring of the process of the relationship. If it was processed out smoothly, with understanding and mutual process, then... well, much less likely to feel wounded by the separation.

THere's also a difference between 'want' and 'need' (as I'm often pointing out to the kids...). I don't NEED a relationship with my mom. My kids don't, either. I want one. And I feel comfortable wanting a good one. Any need under there is more individual - need for healing, need for common ground. Those are my personal needs (and fortunately, they're hers, too). But she also needs autonomy (as do I), and needs to be respected (as do I). We each want those things in different flavors, though, and they don't always have to come from the source I'd prefer. It's hard sometimes to separate the need from the want. Especially when it is a big want that comes along mixed up with a need.

[rudyinparis]

I'm reading through all these fantastic posts from the week... DH is out of town, work is insanely busy and I'm missing this community!

And, hey, there's pnuts mama! I was wondering where she went.

Cheers to you all... I'll keep reading every post as time allows.

[Bobbi]

The toughest part of all this for me is accepting that my mom is who SHE is, not who I'd like her to be, and doing my best to let go of the hurt that causes me at times. I posted the other day, but looking back, it was all negative and doesn't accurately reflect our relationship.

I am supremely close to my mom. In part because she was 18 when she had me and we did a lot of growing up together. We are great friends, and have vacationed together, just the 2 of us with no husbands around. Truly there are very few people I'd rather hang out with. We speak almost daily.

She has worked extrememly hard in her life to overcome a lack of education and build a terrific career. I'm extremely proud of her for that. Although she's a bit of a workaholic and that can get annoying when she's travelling 10 hours to see me, but working while she's here.

For a long time, the 10 hour trip was her excuse. I have 4 kids, and she's missed baptisms and first birthdays and left early from the parties she did show up for. My dad is a bit of a pushover, so whatever she says goes. I can't tell you how often I felt stabbed in the heart because she wanted to leave 4 hours earlier than she told me she would, prior to presents or cake, due to some made-up excuse, like she can't wait to get away. Which wouldn't be so bad if she were truly involved with the kids while here, but often she was on her cell, the internet, checking email, PLAYING SOLITAIR, whatever.

So I have learned to lower my expectations of her. And I'm still trying to rectify that I love her as a mom and a friend, but as a grandma, she is lacking. And acept that she's not ready to be "that grandma" yet, and may never.

I'm getting nervous though, as my parents are getting ready to move close by. And I can't help but wonder how and if that will change the dynamic...

[pnuts mama]

sorry, should have edited to add the word *hurt* with the word *anger*- as in, "feel anger and hurt with regard to their parents" etc etc.

enu- will talk to you about responsibilities of caring for aging parents any time you'd like! boundary issues galore! how it impacts your marriage! your kids! your mental health! good times.

anon for now- ooooh, this was my biggest difficulty not posting for the first two days, as so much of my perspective is *in-law* vs. my own parents now that i am an adult/parent.

p.s. moxie, the other day i inadvertently started singing "you gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em", so thanks. am i the only one who still can picture kenny rogers on the train car playing cards with the muppets singing that song? yeesh.

[Joy]

@Moxie, Hedra... thanks, ridicule away!!

The perspective of what my Mother was going through at my age puts a very interesting spin on how badly our relationship started to turn, really since I met DH and we dated all through college, I guess almost 14 yrs. ago now. It started with letters warning me that if I ever felt I needed to get out of the relationship, I should.. and this was during the glowing, rose- colored blossoming of our relationship. Downward spiral from there.

All I want from my mom is for her to be really, truly, happy for me, and to be able to celebrate my victories with me. I wanted her to be the proud mama at my wedding, and all she ever says is how bad she looked in her dress. I understand now that she's unhappy, and despite much therapy, divorce, remarriage, career change, etc. is still unhappy, and she can't be truly happy for anyone else if she's not happy with herself. My siblings and I recognize that no matter what we do, we can't help, she's got to help herself; and the guilt she lays on us is really due to her issues, not ours.

But I'm starting to see that her history really is rearing it's ugly head in the relationships between her and her children. Her mother's mother died when she was about 6, I think, and she lived with her grandparents until high school, when her father and step- mother took her, and her stepmother was always very sweet, but young and distant. My mother followed the Father's House to Sorority House to Husband's House path, and seemed to be in a sort of a daze throughout my childhood. Depression? Likely. I know she felt she did what was expected as she married and had children in terms of interaction with her parents.

What I'm realizing is that there really isn't a healthy history of Mother/Adult Child relationships there, and fights have always sprung up when I've gone my own way on my path and not done what she's expected in terms of our interactions (Did not want her to stay at my house after birth of first child, do not stay with her for magical bed and breakfast- type visits with the grandchildren, etc.), or when I've made life decisions that mirror those she made and regrets (my wedding).

I don't really want her to mother me anymore (although I really needed someone to come help with dishes and clean after my 2nd was born and 1st was 2, and she was actually in town and coming to visit, and she said 'If I come, I don't want to be cleaning, I want to visit with the baby!!') That was the last time I ever asked her for help.

Sorry this is so long.. this is what's been processing in my head while reading these posts. I think I'm getting to a point of clarity that I hadn't been able to get to before.

[hedra]

@pnuts mama, speaking for my mom here (as a retired minister). A minor quibble in SUPPORT of the forgiveness issue...

Many people misunderstand or misread the order of forgiveness and healing. Partly because faith teachings tend to place it first, as an action that can be taken to lead to a state of forgiveness. However, (this is from the Preacher's Kid discussions I've had with her over this, as well as my own process and hers), it can be quite damaging to try to forgive *before* the step of letting go. Forgiveness often comes so tight to the releasing part of healing that it looks like it is at the same time, and in retrospect, often looks like it came first. But most of the time, it is the letting go that allows the forgiveness, not the other way around. With a faith-based person, the choice to forgive is actually a choice to let go. The terminology can be misleading, and create a struggle that needn't exist.

I definitely agree that forgiveness is a profound state of grace, regardless of faith (or non-faith). It is a state of being that carries one well beyond the pain.

And that's speaking as someone who did suffer abuse, and who - as the end point of the healing process - has no trouble at all forgiving having been assaulted as a child. I have forgiveness aplenty. No forgetting, and no absolving, but forgiveness, clear and clean and free.

For people of faith, making an effort to forgive while still wounded can be part of the process (because it is one of the 'releasing' aspects, as one hands the burden over to the Divine), but the state of forgiveness is still after that. And even trying to forgive when one isn't ready to release can cause a lot of doubt and misery - my mom has dealt with a lot of people who have felt less-than, and have judged themselves harshly because they could not forgive (before they were ready to release).

If you're not into forgiveness as an issue of faith, belief, or culture, you may still find yourself there once you release - after embracing - the anger and pain.

Speaking of which, one of the fastest ways I know (having done this rather a lot) to release anger and pain is to love it. Oh, love your anger, and love your pain. Hold it in your arms and rock it. The more you embrace it, welcome it, and hold it to your heart, the less it cries. Like a baby (okay, like *some* babies), if you put it down before it has been loved and rocked to a deep sleep, it will only wake and cry again (often louder) as you try to slip away. The same for any uncomfortable emotion. They're all part of us, and important, and worthy. So if other methods haven't worked, try that one (I got it from a cancer wellness site, talking about the anger of having received a terminal diagnosis - if it can be the path out of that anger, it can be the path out of ANY anger, IMHO... at least for someone.).

(I'm totally on board with how hard it can be to get to the state of forgiveness with one's parents, though - it was almost as hard as it was to get to forgiveness with my abusers. And yes, that is plural.)

(off the Preacher's Kid podium, now!)

I'm unfortunately I'm less experienced on the in-laws issue. Mine are great, and even with my ex-fiance', he was all over handling his own boundaries with them. The very few boundary issues I had to deal with between DH and his parents we dealt with as a team - talked them through, problem-solved ideas, came up with strategies, and touched down with each other to see how it was working. Keeping it impersonal (problem-to-be-solved rather than how-could-they or they-don't-understand-me) helps. But beyond that... try Parent Effectiveness Training - the methods should work upwards as well as down?

[dregina]

"Sometimes the idea of walking away to save yourself is worse than actually doing it."

That was completely true for me. It took me years and years to finally give up on having any expectations regarding a relationship with my Mom, and to get over the guilt of having to draw boundaries very far out. But once I was able to draw those boundaries calmly and consistently, she respected them, and lo and behold, my Aunt stepped forward to provide me with the light, loving guidance that Num-Num touched on from her post a few days ago.

Can you tell the parenting relationship with my Mom and I was completely reversed? If you're in that situation, make the reversal work for you! Draw those boundaries!It's the healthy choice for both of you, and growth will replace the loss. I just wish I had gotten that sooner.

[hedra]

@pnuts mama .... thaaaanks, I'd just got it back OUT of my head, and now not only is it cycling again but I have visuals to go with it! (and I don't even recall seeing that episode of the Muppets, though I probably did...)

[Moxie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNnrTNFWcsg

[hedra]

Nooooooooo! (fortunately, I can't watch youtube at work. Phew! LA LA LA LA LA I can't HEAR you!)

[B]

Since becoming a mom, I've definitely come to see my parents more in their specific contexts. This is helpful intellectually, but not always for smoothing our relationship. In fact, it makes it clearer to me where I have a need for boundaries. Consequently, I wind up being very tense about enforcing boundaries on the once-per-year visit from the grandparents, who live abroad.

To illustrate: Because of a birth defect that his father didn't feel like facing on a daily basis, my father spent the first year and a half of his life languishing in a hospital with no stimulation whatsoever (WWII in Europe). Clearly this had some neurological effects, but I'm being an armchair psychologist when I attribute troubling characteristics--lack of empathy, no respect for personal space, tendency to think in binary categories, short time horizon, rule obsession, whatever--to this horrifying early start into life. My shrink did tell me that it's remarkable that my father has managed to lead the socially and culturally rich life that he's had so far, given this gap in early childhood devt.

So, intellectually it is helpful to have this contextualization. But it doesn't make me any more relaxed when actually interacting with him: I still get angry when he ignores my daughter's attempts to chat but then seeks to make contact by encroaching on her physical space in ways that very obviously make her uncomfortable. All I derive from my contextual knowledge is a pessimistic assessment of what I think is possible in the relationship between my daughter and my parents, along with the knowledge that I have to be on hand at all times to protect her (she's three and there's a language barrier). I wind up being very very tense through a visit that usually lasts 10 days or more--and feeling guilty but relieved when they're gone.

Along similar lines, I have a much more pessimistic assessment of the degree of connection that is possible with my mother than is the case for her. I've been in therapy and concluded that there is only so much emotional territory that I am willing to share with her. She has not been in therapy, but thinks that everything can be resolved by "talking openly"--on her terms, of course, which again are all about not respecting personal (emotional) space. So I just shut up and close off vast stretches of my life --but I can't manage to be too gracious about it. Humor also doesn't work; not only do I come from a culture that doesn't get humor, but this is even more true in my family.

Contextualization helps with understanding what is going on, but it doesn't provide a roadmap for relaxed and joyous encounters. Just my own experience.

[Shandra]

@emu: I kind of agree, but then I don't.

I'll give one of my big examples. I worked for several years on (among other things) letting go of some of my anger and grief that my parents allowed my grandfather to abuse me. And I made the relationship into one where I visited once or twice a month.

Then one day I arrived and the chairs from my grandfather's estate had been moved into the living room - the ones I was abused on and over.

After some thought about it I decided I would say that I would not come visit in their home while the chairs were there. But that they were welcome to visit me.

It took a year and a half of quietly not going there to get them to remove most of them (they have one ottoman left; the last stand, I guess).

We can say the relationship is what we make of it, but the thing is - that was a total blindside right out of our shared history. I felt I could not ignore that history. It was very tricky.

[lisak]

Thank you for saying Brenda can bite you. 'Cause when I read that, I thought, with an eyeroll, "You have got to be kidding me! Who can pull that off? Is she superwoman?" She must live in some fictional fairy tale. She can bite me, too.

Every day I do my best. I now (at age 44) know that my mom did the same. Am I a perfect mother? No. Was she a perfect mother? No. Did she have a hell of a lot on her plate? You betcha. I think we are a lot more aware of how we mother than my mothers generation was. I really doubt she gave her mothering much thought, beyond trying her darnedest not to be as negative as her own mother was. And she succeeded, as evidenced by four grown children who are relatively happy and successful, who all liked her (deceased now) and who all like each other (most of the time). I can only hope I can do as well as she did.

[hush]

@Jessica(tion is) & enu - Hugs to you both. FWIW, I don't think it's at all unreasonable for one to expect that the loving mother you had as a child shouldn't do a complete 180 on you and become an absentee, rejecting, unreliable figure once she's become a grandparent.

Makes me wonder -- what is really going on with her? Hedra laid out some excellent points about what she may be experiencing (see end of the last thread - Part 2).

Does she have many close friends? Is she dealing with a serious health concern, and/or depression, substance abuse, or even just the changes of menopause? What do you think would happen if you could have an honest conversation with her about the effects of her behavior? Would it be hard for you to feel vulnerable to her?

Reading your posts reminds me of one of my best friends (& mother figures) who makes me feel that way sometimes. She's always late, wants to change longstanding plans at the last minute, wants to invite random people I don't even know along to our special outings, always has "oh, so much going on" in her life (but not really), etc. I used to think she was flaky & had a weird relationship to time.

Yet, upon closer examination, somehow she always makes time to visit with people who she has said "treat her like sh*t." She has a ton of acquaintances but no real close friends. I think she likes it that way. Not comfortable getting too close. She is a good person who is a little commitment-phobic, and has "the disease to please." Her natural inclination is to make choices out of fear/anxiety rather than out love/health. She prioritizes the people and things that let her re-enact issues around fear & anxiety, while giving short shrift to the people that are positive/loving influences in her life. I don't know if this sounds at all familiar to you, but I saw a glimmer of commonality there so I thought I'd share.

Wish I knew more about psychology & family dynamics theories to offer you some insight. All I can offer you is an outsider's opinion, which is "Wow - her behavior ain't right," along my best wishes for you.

@enu - I don't agree that once you're an adult your parents owe you nothing. That notion sounds like one of those old rationalizations serving to help perpetuate denial of our true feelings. It's ok to admit when we have unpleasant emotions about our parents, to be able to really name it when we've been deeply hurt, and it's 100% healthy to want to dig deeper.

[hush]

Whoops! I meant for the beginning of my last comment to be "@Jessica(tion is) & eep" (not enu). My bad. Lack of sleep is a killer....

[enu]

@hush, well, let me clarify. I don't think your parents owe you babysitting, the set of china she gave your younger sister instead because she was broke, or a certain amount in their will.

If they abused you as a child or allowed you to be abused, they certainly owe you whatever they can do to make you "whole" now. They owe you common courtesy. And that includes not constantly letting you down/breaking promises, the same way a friend owes you that. That includes not putting you down, the same way a friend owes you that.

What else do you think a parent of an adult owes that adult? Too many folks I know seem to think their parents should literally support them indefinately, provide free daycare whether they want to or not and whether they had their own plans or not, etc.

[Laura]

I just read a really great article about a woman's relationship with her mother now that she's grown and thought you might find it interesting. If you click my name, it should take you to the article as I have no idea how to insert HTML coding for a link.

Thank you for this really great series!

[Moxie]

I think an adult parent owes you interest in your life and in your kids. Kindness and respect for your skills and talents. Support for your parenting. Pleasure in talking/emailing/texting you and in seeing you in person. The truth about your family history. Joy in your successes. Sadness (not recrimination) at your failures and heartbreaks. A desire to be in contact. Acknowledgment that your children are above average. Advice only when asked for.

That's what I mean by what you "get" from your parents.

[Julie]

That's an interesting question enu, so this is what I think (though the word "owe" rubs me the wrong way and has the connotation of "expectations" such as you put out - free childcare, financial support....and that I think is wrong):

I think parents should give their adult children the continued emotional support (though revised) that has evolved from their adult/child relationship - and that's going to be different for everyone - even within the same family. Sometimes especially because they are in the same family, and that goes along with "my mom loves all the things that make me ME, and she loves all the things that make my brother HIM and boy oh boy are those things different" Just because we are adults doesn't mean that we no longer need a pat on the back, we no longer need to hear joy in their voice when we call them, or to have them give us a hug when things are going shitty. And of course, to weigh in with their opinions - based on personal experience and those that have gone before us - when asked. Let me say that again.....WHEN ASKED.

There is nothing better than to share the joy of my child with my mom - no one gets it quite like she does.....about MY child. I'm not saying she owes me any of that......but boy am I grateful for her in so many ways, every single day. I'm 37 and she still sounds joyful and delighted when I call her - even if I just saw her an hour earlier. I know for a fact, without a doubt my brother and I are her two most favorite people in the world.

[Bobbi]

Fantastic article Laura...thanks for that!

[hedra]

Oh, yeah, enu, I'm with you on that!

Thanks for clarifying.

My mom has 'grandma time' (time that she *chooses* to spend with the kids, for her pleasure and to foster the relationships), and she also has 'babysitting time' (paid at the same rate we pay elsewhere, at times that work for US, and that she is also available for), and 'swap time' (time she exchanges in return for us working at her house - which she also doesn't think *we* owe *her* - though she does sometimes wish it was something we could just give from the generosity of our hearts, she also is realistic about how much time we do not have, because she didn't have any at this point in her life, either!).

So, she watches the kids when school is out or they're sick, in exchange for us working on her house. We don't have to pay for a care provider (presuming we could even FIND one for sick kids), and she doesn't have to pay a handyman/yard-service/electrician. We reassess regularly to see if we're balancing reasonably fairly (always more time than we have, and less work than she needs... sigh). And we pay her for sitting, though they get the benefit of having fun at Baba's house. She chooses to take them off on adventures at times, sometimes with a little kicked in from our side to defray costs, other times on her dime entirely.

No 'owe' in there. The only 'owe' is the responsibility to the relationship, to communicate, and to resolve issues fairly.

My mom was adamant about the lines on that. The day we turned 18, we started paying rent if we lived at home. She's the 'international bank of mom' when we have a financial emergency. And we pay interest on anything more than short-term debt. She doesn't owe us financial support (she loans money based on our credit with her, too - so if ya don't get back to her with the check, sorry, no assist next time!).

She works hard to keep her resources (time, energy, money, stuff) separate from her relationships. It isn't that she won't spend the former on us, but that's a separate issue from the latter. Worth noting, though, that she considers a modicum of investment (time, energy, money, stuff) to be integral to the relationship thing. But not specifics - there isn't a SET amount or item she is obliged to give. It's a relationship. There's sharing. We return time, energy, money (okay, not much on the money, at this point in time), and stuff. That's not 'owe', though, it's 'maintain'.

And oh, the issues with the inheritance side! Thankfully, we've got a better handle on that than most (which still leaves room for crises) having watched her go through it with her sister and cousins... holy sh*t, the 'owe' that rolls out of nowhere when someone dies! Everyone thinks they're owed, then. It's payback for the pain that wasn't eased, it's a show of love, it's everything that wasn't demanded, every line that hadn't been drawn in advance. ALLLLL at once. Terminating the idea of 'owed' before then is a good plan! Resolve the emotional debt, so it doesn't come out on your siblings when the finanicial gates open (if you're so lucky as to have any inheritance to claim in the first place).

So, right there with ya on that one. So with ya.

[M-M]

@Julie: I completely agree. Perspective is a tool I use all the time. Look at the circumstances your parents were raised in and hopefully you can take away some aswers for why they act they way they do now.

My MIL is my problem. But given her upbringing, having her son (my husband) at 15, getting married then divorced before 18, losing all rights to see her son by 24. She has all rights to be a nut job.

But she doesn't have the right to be cruel. She doesn't have the right to set us up, then let us down. We have to very firmly remind ourselves that she will never be the person we need her to be. Never. And that's so very sad.

I support my husband through every let-down as if he lost her in an accident. The accident being his conception.

((sigh))

[hedra]

And also with Moxie - the 'owe' in a relationship is all lined out there, too.

It's more respecting the relationship, honoring the relationship, being kind and considerate. Showing the love and affection rather than hiding it. Holding the tongue when it would only cause pain, sharing the joys, admiring the successes.

That's what makes a good friend, or any relationship, yes? My best friends are like that, too.

[hush]

@enu - I hear you; thanks for clarifying. No one should be made to feel like a doormat, or like their contributions are not being respected.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be any keeping score with family. Just loving one another and being grateful for what we have. (Gah, I sound like a total pollyanna.)

[pnuts mama]

@hedra- excellent clarifications on forgiveness and healing. i often get nervous that i'll get too preachy if i speak from a position from faith, turn too many people off, be misunderstood as prostelitizing, etc.

i think what i've been noticing mostly is the need for so many members of our generation to *consider* the need for forgiveness of our parents as a part of their healing process for a more complete adulthood. there is sooo much hurt and anger that i hear in people's experiences. i do think enu makes a good point, that perhaps our getting hurt by the fact that our expectations often are much different from what our parents are offering is as much our own responsibility as theirs. this doesn't mean that the hurt that is experienced is invalid- truly it is valid- but needs to be claimed as something we have power over. but again, from a faith-based point of view, true forgiveness allows at least one side of the relationship to get further along in recreating the wholeness that ultimately gives one peace and closer to the creator.

***
quickly jumping in to the other point on expectations/what is owed from parents to adult children- let me just say that recent research is showing an enormous gap between what is expected from contemporary adults vs. what is being given (and been given in the past) from their parents. specifically in terms of parenthood- historically (in very general terms), multiple generations within families lived together, or close by and supported each other all throughout the life cycle. w/r/t women in particular, it was of course common for women who stayed home to spend time together caring for the youngest and oldest members of the family.

much of this has changed now- think of most of our moms/aunts/etc. today- many aren't old enough to retire, or want to, so simply are not available to care for either youngest or oldest in the way they had been expected/able to in the past. many had a very different emotional and psychological experience of womanhood/motherhood than previous generations, and this now impacts the way they view the role they play in their children and grandchildrens lives. there is also a huge gap between how we as a generation understand feminism (3rd wave) than what they experienced (2nd wave) and this may be an often ignored part of the equation that we are only just starting to acknowledge.

i think the term "owes" is really huge- our generation feels (generally, yet not incorrectly) let down by our parents generation in the sense of being neglected (divorce, latchkey, anti-child society we were raised in, etc etc) and perhaps we are searching for some of that care now, especially when stuff gets brought up as we have our own children. i would say that most of our parents generation are basically clueless as to any of that (most of us are, too, which results in that hurt and anger that we just can't seem to understand or figure out) and that leads to so much of the upheaval between generations right now. which is where the whole understanding where they're at/we're at and forgiveness/healing comes in.

agh!! too much!! must get back to this disorganized nest. yes, nesting. god help me.

[Kathy B.]

Hi -- sorry, I'm late to the party; have been on vacation. Here are my thoughts as the parent of an adult child. (I haven't read any of the comments - and just skimmed the actual posts.) I could write more - but this is a comments section, not a thesis!

First some data points.

1. My mother died when I was just 21 years old, so I did not get to have that relationship with my own mother. As a result, when it became my turn, I had no past experience to base on, just my gut feelings.

2. I have one child (by choice); a daughter who is 27 years old.

3. Her dad and I divorced when she was 11 (or maybe she was 12 -- I don't remember!) Not sure what that means in the context of this post, but there it is.

4. My daughter lived with me until she was 25 which was about a year after she graduated from college.

The keys to a successful relationship (in my opinion) are trust and respect. This relationship, however, has to be formed long before the child becomes an adult.

When my daughter was a teenager:

I trusted her and respected her privacy. This respect was earned. Fortunately she never gave me reason to rescind that trust.

I gave her space to be herself, but guided her with my "superior knowledge *cough cough* I allowed her the opportunity to make mistakes.

I gave her a foundation in the Christian faith. (I know not everybody agrees with this one, but it was important to me.)

I loved her with every fiber of my being.

Having built that foundation when she was a child, we now a wonderful relationship. We talk more now that she has moved out of the house than we did when she lived here! She calls me for advice - and sometimes even takes it! (We'll see how this all plays out when/if she decides to have children of her own.)

The key to this relationship is to treat the adult child as an adult, not a child.

I think it has worked; the tattoo on her back says "MOM" -- and I love it!

[Lily]

All - Great topic. I'm really enjoying hearing the many perspectives.

Can I throw another wrench into the story? My own experience, and those of my friends with similar family backgrounds, points to the challenges of dealing with parents raised themselves in a different country/culture. Not only are there parenting differences and lifestyle differences due to progress (babies on their sides and rice cereal), but also due to culture ("when we grew up, mom came and stayed for 6 weeks when the baby was born")

What happens is not only a seperation/implied criticism from the way your own mom did things, but also from the entire cultural context, as expressed through child rearing. This raises issues of commitment to the country/ethnicity, particularly in the context of a mixed marriage.

It is typically further compounded by the different cultural norms around bounderies. I know from my own experience and those of my first-gen friends that the "appropriate bounderies" lines are not the same elsewhere in the world, but us american-born children typically seek more American bounderies, while our foriegn born parents find those strange, if not outright disrespectful.

I know I am only beginning to work through the implications for my own life, and how to balance and manage these factors, but i thought they bore raising in this context.

[hedra]

(can I just say that I'm still going back to re-read Moxie's mock schedule and laughing soooo hard. Now about the choice of swear words, because that's what I want to say some days when I'm saying 'POOPIE BOOGER!')

Again what amazing posts. This generation of women is so much more in touch with themselves than we were at your age, and light years ahead of all of our parents!

B said, “Contextualization helps with understanding what is going on, but it doesn't provide a roadmap for relaxed and joyous encounters.”
And Jessica said from yesterday’s post, “I’d hoped for advice on what to do if those expectations are not being met, with discussion/examples of all different types of adult parent/child problems.”

My goal with my posts was to do as B and Jessica suggested, put things in context and then finally get to how to change this for your self.
However, I have a feeling, and I could be very wrong here, that my posts may have been interpreted as being filled with current anger and resentment. If you gleaned that from my words, I’m so sorry. I know my writing style is more like a teaching, blogging is new for me, writing seminars isn’t, thanks for you patience as I learn.

I am truly filled with peace regarding my mom, it was my goal to get to this place and enjoy the time I have left with her. She has survived lung cancer and bladder cancer. I’m at peace with what she is capable of, with what I once dreamed of having and with what my reality of our relationship is now.

Moxie’s list of “What can I reasonably get from my parent?” is a wonderful list to use to begin your healing.

I think what I’m about to say may not be very popular, but for me it is my truth and it’s how I dealt with all of this. Turning 50, as of 2 weeks ago, and having raised 2 adult children my view on today’s post is a little different, you may be used to that by now!
My view doesn’t come out of the blue, it comes from 33 years of studying me, my life and my growth. Yup, do the math, I started my healing at a VERY young age.

I believe an adult child’s responsibility is to herself, her growth, her family and her own adult life.
I’ve just recently been schooled again in this now that my son is leaving for Spain. He must do what’s best for him, not what’s best for me. I must do what’