Getting along with your parents as an adult, part 2: More on the parent's responsibility

Hold on--today's post is super-super-long. Grab a cup of coffee before you start reading.

Yesterday we heard from Num-Num on the parent's responsibility to an adult child. Today's guest is my mom, who, like me, is a little on the long-winded side. I asked her to write the post because she and I have a great relationship and my adult brother and his girlfriend like and trust her, too. She's a Christian, and that comes out in the piece she wrote for me, so beware if that'll offend you and skip over those parts. She writes:

How To Mother Your Child So You Can be Adult Friends
Four Easy Rules, Plus a Lot of Ruminations
by Moxie's Mom

1. Love your kid to bits. Unconditionally. 

2. Don't expect her to be an extension of you. Keep boundaries to let her be her own person. Respect her as a person. And take delight in finding out who she is, and how she is.

3. Don't be afraid of your kid's exceeding you. Take pride and pleasure in your kids' being better than you! 

4. Be selfish enough to want them to embrace your values and your faith. Work to achieve this, then toss it out there. Let them soar! And pray that they are better than you.

For the first, let me say that I did not set out to be my daughter's friend. I loved her to bits and was the best mother I knew how to be. In retrospect, the "method" went something like this:

Love Respect Share Care Treasure Thank Encourage Nurture Listen

Love 'em to bits.

Remember where parental authority comes from. We are stand-ins for God.
"The steadfast love of the LORD endures forever."

Steadfast Endure Do not expect an end.

Care for/love yourself in order to better do the same for your kids. For the "terrible twos" you need to get enough sleep and not over schedule yourself.

Never forget what it's like to be a kid.

Make/take time to do your favorite things. Allow your kids to know what tickles your fancy. Cultivate humor--family jokes.

Laugh with, not at. Laugh often. Laugh with abandon and delight.

Say "I love you." Say it again.

Be glad to see one another.

Light up when your child comes into the room.*

Show as much courtesy to your children as you would to your visiting clergyman! Yes, please. No, thank you. Here, I'll get that door. Do you need a hand? Oh, thank you; I needed that!

Be reasonably frank about who you are. Not Superwoman. But retain dignity.

Putting yourself down in front of your kids is dangerous. NEVER do it!

Allow yourself and others to make mistakes without losing face. Turn mistakes and wrong choices into learning experiences.

Analyze Discuss Evaluate Plan

Make extravagant plans. Make small plans. Plan surprises. Plan parties. Plan gifts. Plan projects for the good of the community. Build dreams. Acknowledge them for what they are: dreams. And then brainstorm what it would take to change them into realistic goals.

Indulge in "what-ifs."

Be creative. Ask open-ended questions. Experiment. Play word games. Challenge one another. Rent movies and share the Kleenex box! Cook for one another. Cook together.

Show consideration. Expect it in return.

Raising children to be selfish does no one any favors.

Let your children participate in your "good works." How many bouquets and loaves of fresh bread I delivered to neighbors and single schoolteachers throughout my childhood! How many Sundays I was sent to answer the door and entertain dinner guests until my mom was ready to call people to the dinner table (which I had helped to set)!

Give fair rewards. Praise when deserved. I still have a doll quilt Mom gave me as thanks for helping cut out forty-leven quilt blocks, which she sewed into doll quilts for the church bazaar. I was about seven, and took satisfaction from being entrusted with an important task, as well as knowing the pleasure of teamwork with my mom. I heard the bazaar lady exclaim over how pretty the quilts were, and I knew we'd done it together. But Mom decided to give me one for helping**. I remember being a little bit mystified. You see, I had already internalized her way of taking satisfaction from the doing, the giving, the anticipation of others' pleasure, the creative process, the Lord's work.

I think it's important to your relationship to keep on being yourself, even after your self becomes also "Mama." There is something unhealthy about "giving up" your life or "sacrificing" for your children. I don't mean you shouldn't make the child the center of your life at the appropriate time. But you rob the child, as well as yourself, of all those interesting talents, hobbies, foibles and quirks in your personality if you abandon your sense of self--humor, whimsy and all that attracted your spouse. Indulge your kooky side, don't pass yourself off as infallible--what a shock to the poor kid the day she discovers that lie!

Have a personality and allow your child to have one, too. Encourage and appreciate, applaud and chastise. But beware the urge to "mold." Especially when she's grown up and it's too late!

Share your faith. Practice it with your child.

Love Example Let go Pray Stand by

Never stop loving.

Have I said anything about respecting privacy? This is a touchy area, because there are some times and some topics where intervention is necessary--a breach of privacy, I suppose. Yet, even before the child has become adult, for a mom to honor her need to keep some things to herself--just may result in a smoother relationship because both sides "hold their tongues."

When it comes right down to it, to be a good friend you need to feed and nurture, love and respect. And if you want your child to grow up to be a friend, you need to start early with love and respect. Give as much freedom as is age-appropriate. it is far more rewarding to have your child come back freely than to come only out of guilt.

Guilt is one kind of obligation, a destructive one practiced by those working out of grasping and mean-spirited impulses. A better sense of obligation is the one built on love and gratitude, and a sense of duty to those with whom one allies. So a loved, respected child, by example, is likely to lavish love and respect back, and seek the company of that wellspring. Yet a child made to feel guilty and that he owes his parents can only struggle to pay what is due despite the crummy way he feels. He makes contact reluctantly. And that, too, makes him feel guilty. Controlling by guilt is a good way to drive your adult children away.

Be merciful. Apologize when appropriate. Forgive freely, yet uphold standards. Don't change the rules to make bad behavior "right." Your first job is to be a good parent, which means you teach the rules of living. You mustn't de-classify a sin for the sake of avoiding controversy, for being a friend. It doesn't work. In the end, it feels better to be called to account and forgiven. That is freeing.

AND LAST OF ALL,
Once your kids are adults, hold your tongue until asked.

Thank you for making me examine the subject. I feel very blessed to have such forgiving kids. I wasn't always as exemplary as I would like to recall. I was a yeller. And I'm sorry.

I have been very blessed.

Love,

Mom

One of the things I've always liked about my mom is that she's very deliberate and specific about showing the process. It's all a learning experience. I know that's what's let me be so forgiving of my own parenting mistakes and helped me see it all as a process of continuous improvement. No failures, only data points.

Tomorrow we're going to talk about being on the adult child side of things. I'm not an expert on this, only having one mom to deal with, but I can tell you some of the things I've observed.

Did my mom's post strike anything with you?

* My mom is good at being delighted over the phone, too. Every time I call she sounds like I'm calling to tell her she won the lottery.

** I'd never heard this story before she wrote it here. But it doesn't surprise me--when I was about 4 I helped her lay out some quilt blocks to make a quilt for my older cousin. I didn't know that Mom was making a matching one for me, too. When I opened the package with my quilt in it I looked at her and said, "But that's Kimmy's quilt!" I was so surprised and so happy when she told me we'd made one for me, too.

Comments

[cgqalvin]

Dearest Moxie,
I have skimmed because I am rushing to work, but I so appreciate your mom. She supported me in some of my best mothering decisions and comiserated when things went awry - butter in the hair, 25 lbs. of flour on the hardwood stairs.
I will write more later when I have time to reflect on these posts on the mother-adult child relationship. I like my kids and they seem to reciprocate.
Thanks for this poignant topic.
Chris the mom of Beth, Dan, Molly and Trish P.S. I believe God doesn't have any grandchildren. Each of us is a child of God.

[Claudia]

Moxie's mom is unsurprisingly as wonderful as Moxie.

I loved the long post, and the fact that I was invited to get coffee (chai tea for me) and sit and read it.

It makes me aware of what I do manage to do as a mother who didn't grow up with my own mother; I remember how I felt along many points of the line in childhood. I try to keep that fresh when I am with my daughter. Also, I am "free" to be the mother I wish I'd had, rather than destined to mother in a comparative way to my own mother, whether it be imitation or completely different.

Learning experiences are a big thing with me. I don't know that I was ever made to feel like I should have known better, but that's how I always felt. Maybe it's due to being called "smart" rather than saying I did a good job/worked hard on something specific. I hope to help my daughter not feel that one too often.

[paola]

Lots of beautiful thoughts there.

'Controlling by guilt is a good way to drive your adult children away.' Wow. The paragraph about guilt made me think of my MIL and her relationship with us and our kids. She is not a bad person, in fact she gives all of herself to everyone, but expects all from everyone too and she just ends up bitter and pissed off with the world, or at least, with my husband and her relatives and friends, and probably me too but I just don't know it. She uses guilt with my son, 'give me a kiss or I'll cry', or worse '...or I'll die' (yes, they say this in Italian) and everything is a bribe. My husband is constantly reminded about how much his parents made sacrifices for him, that he wouldn't have a degree, job, career, if it hadn't been for them. He is constantly reminded of stupid kids' things like kicking his dad when he was 10 that his mother still uses to get back at him. Of course my MIL is also mentally ill and this is such a great excuse for her too, but you can't help but wonder if she weren't, would she still use this tactic of hers to punish those she loves ( along with herself).

[Shandra]

I skimmed a bit and plan to revisit it later but I wanted to respond to the "light up when your child comes in the room." That to me is the core of parenting.

Growing up I was made to feel like an impediment in very many ways. I also never knew when I came through the door what the mood of the house would be like, or if my belongings would be on the lawn (my mother did this when she would be upset about the state of my room). The older I got the more reasons I found to just not come home after school until the very last minute - babysitting jobs, staying with friends, hanging out in subway stations dreading that entry in the door. I still have to breathe deeply before I knock, or pick up the phone.

That is maybe the one thing I am determined to do as the relationship to my son. To give him the idea that I am always glad to see him and that our home really is HIS home. So far, it's really not hard (which maybe hurts the worst, but of course my son is only almost-3).

[Alison]

Wow Moxie what a wise wise woman your mum is. I love this post - I am going to print it out so I can have a look at now and again. It sums up so many things about the relationship I want to cultivate with my son as well as touching on some of the issues I have with my parents (yep that old guilty feeling...). Thank you for this week - there has already been so much to mentally digest and I think these are posts I will come back to time and time again.

[Jojo]

Moxie, your mom rocks! I love the simple honesty that she shows in her communication with all of us. She's obviously given motherhood some considerable thought, and I'm glad she was willing to share with us.

Her words di two things. They made me want to hug my mom for being such a great mom, and she made me understand why my MIL drives me so crazy.

[Nichole]

Please let your mom know how much I appreciate her writing this. It's wonderful.

[Dana]

Wow. Wow. Your mother sounds amazing! What a gift you have in her.

I like what she said about being yourself, even after you become a mother, keeping you talents, hobbies, & quirks and all that attracted your spouse. It's so important to take care of yourself and your emotional well being in order to take care of your children.

I think some of us have a crisis of "Who am I, what am I good for?" after having children. I used to work in the financial industry before my daughter was born and now I'm a SAHM. One of the ways I am able to use my gift/obsession with spreadsheets & graphs is in our finances & household management. Doing so helps me remember that I still have gifts and talents, even though I usually am dressed in old sweats and jeans, with spit up and other yummy baby expulsions on my clothes. It also helps run the household :)

We all have something unique to offer our families and that something is not an attribute that needs to be attained, or reached. It's who you are. Your optimism, your wit, your amazing ability to alphabetize your spices*, your generosity, your love of learning.... it's all there. Now we just have to hold onto those through the sleep regressions :)

*not one of my gifts. I look for cinnamon and end up with cumin.

[ace]

This passage really resonated with me:

"Yet a child made to feel guilty and that he owes his parents can only struggle to pay what is due despite the crummy way he feels. He makes contact reluctantly. And that, too, makes him feel guilty. Controlling by guilt is a good way to drive your adult children away."

How can an adult child improve a relationship with a guilt inducing mother when the mother always makes the child feel like she is not loving enough, communicating enough, or supportive enough? And the adult child, in turn, feels those same things towards the mother and ends up feeling guilty and victimized. Is there a way to end the cycle?

[AmyinMotown]

Your mom is invited up here for tea and cookies anytime. You certainly come by your awesomeness honestly, Moxie.

This post made me actually feel pretty good about my own mothering. I do a lot of these things. Interestingly, this series has not brought up a lot of stuff about my mother with whom I have MAJOR issues. We get along well as long as I don't have too many opinions or speak up for myself. Maybe I have made more peace with her failings than I thought I had, or maybe it's just not my top of mind issue right now. Like Shandra, I always kind of felt I was a impediment to my mom, and I struggle with meeting my kids' needs and working from home. Something's always sliding. But that whole "light up when your kid walks in the room" thing? I don't even need to think about it.

This is bringing up big stuff with my mother in law. Who didn't even call my husband on his birthday this year --he'd called her the day before and she wished him happy birthday then and called it good, I guess. WHO DOES THAT??

Also, a question for the group: I liked what your mom said about including your kid in your good works. I used to volunteer a lot and kind of stopped when Maggie came along because she is just a handful to manage.I think she would like volunteering, she is a major people person and is starting to show a very sweet sense of empathy I want to encourage. But the kid is into EVERYTHING and never stops moving, ever. Is there a good age to start volunteering with our kids, and what sort of projects might be good for a VERY energetic and extroverted three year old whose parents also have a baby brother to watch?

[Joy]

Beautiful, Beautiful words.

The part where she writes, "Light up when your child comes into the room." reminds me of a passage written by Brenda Ueland I came across a while ago. Sorry it's so long, but it really resonated with me, so I'll paste it here:

"Don't ask your poor children those automatic questions - 'Did you wash your hands, dear?' - those dull, automatic, querulous, duty questions (almost the only conversation that most parents have to offer). Note the look of dreadful exhaustion and ennui and boredom that comes into their otherwise quite happy faces. And don't say, 'How was school today, dear?' which really means: 'Please entertain me (mama) who is mentally totally lazy at the moment with not one witty or interesting thing to offer, and please give me an interesting and stimulating account of high marks.'

Years and years ago when my child was four years old, I suddenly learned not to do this. I learned - a bolt from Heaven - never to ask an automatic question, so boring, so mentally lazy, so exhausting. No, I would myself tell her something interesting and arresting: 'I saw Pat Greaves next door running and bawling because he was being chased by a strange yellow cat.' My child's eyes would sparkle with interest, and there we were, in the liveliest conversation, and behold! she was soon telling me the most interesting extraordinary things, her own ideas. At our meals together I felt that it was I, not she, who must be the wit, the raconteur, the delightful one, the fascinated listener to her remarks, the laugher at her jokes. Now, the light in a child's eyes is a splendid gauge and tells you in a split second if you are failing and becoming a bore and a schoolmarm. She has liked me ever since.

Another aspect of the same thing is this: I say to those youngish parents (the vast majority these days) who are exhausted by their children and, with pale, neurasthenic frowns on their foreheads, are always pleading, 'Plee-ase go to bed, dear ... Plee-ase now Jack, Sally, Jane, go in the other room dear and look at television.'

'No,' I say, 'you are doing it wrong. You are failing as parents. You should be so vigorous, healthy, in the pink of condition (cut out all the smoking and drinking and coffee breaks), so inexhaustible, rambustious, jolly, full of devilry and frolic, of stories, of dramatisations, of actions, of backward somersaults, or athletics and tomfoolery, of hilarity, that your children at last after hours of violent exercise, worn down by laughter and intellectual excitement, with pale, neurasthenic frowns on their foreheads cry: 'Plee...eease, Mama, go to bed!' "

I'm also going to print out Moxie's mom's post to refer to as words to live by.

Thanks also to everyone for yesterday's posts (hedra, Maria Wood)... it helps so much to know that there needs to be a transition in the parent- child relationship when the child reaches adulthood, motherhood, etc. I know now that never happened with my mom and me, and that I have some work to do to try to implement that transition (now that I'm 32, I think it might be time. :) ) These posts these past 2 days will be the framework I'll start with.

Thanks, Moxie, and thank your mom for me. This is a very timely post for me.. I'd given up hope and now I've got a glimmer.

[enu]

Lovely, Moxie. And isn't it wonderful to grow up with parents who light up when you come in the room? If I could wish something for every child, after the bare necessities of survival, it would be that.

Luckily, lighting up when your child comes in the room is about as easy and automatic as gagging when you pass a crate of putrid fish.

I do feel the need to put in a reassurance that my atheist parents managed all this with grace and love as well.

[the milliner]

"No failure, only data points."

LOVE that! A good thing to keep in mind as I embark on this whole motherhood thing in 3 +/- weeks!

It's also, I might point out, a good chapter title (or sub-heading?) for your book. Just some food for thought.

[hedra]

@ace, check anything on codependency - the guilt as a control device is classic. I like Melody Beattie's books, but there are a million others. There are ways to escape that trap, really! I can't give you the steps for your situation, but the books can.

@AmyinMotown, um, I'm gonna be the mom with the birthday issues, I think. I suck with birthdays. Better with my kids than others, but I really am just not into them. I get the idea of them, but ... well, it's like trying to honor someone else's traditions that one doesn't understand. I flub it a lot.

@Moxie's mom. You said what I feel, with the exception of the raising them in my faith thing - though I was raised UU, and my DH Quaker, and they're attending the UU sunday school with my mom (who is a retired UU minister) but self-identify mainly as Friends... anyway, one of the underpinnings of my faith is that each person must choose their own path regarding faith. So, in that sense, my raising them to understand many faiths and to find the one that fits them best is probably the same thing - raising them in my belief about faith, anyway.

As I was reading, I was thinking to myself, 'you mean, if I keep working this, I could end up with a kid like Moxie?!!! How cool would that be?!' (Recall our funny discussions a while back about how we see hot guys and think 'oh, I hope my son grows up like that' instead of 'ooh, baby baby!'? I'm now thinking 'I wonder if M and R will grow up to be as solid and compassionate as Moxie...') I aim for everything on that list, though I don't hit the mark all the time. The ouchiest spot is in being glad to see them - and I am, and I show it, but I don't think it always communicates effectively for at least one of the kids (B). He feels the strain of 'too many kids in the house' the most (having been followed by twins, I suspect plays a role), and he needs that joyful greeting more than I think I manage. Middle child spot sucks (been there).

Oh, and I think you got all the things my mom aims for, as well, though she'd probably say 'values' over faith/religion as well (UU, as noted).

@AmyinMotown, again... the good works stuff can start simply. My kids mainly start when they're around 4-5 years old, and they start with physical tasks. That's planting trees for conservation projects, and doing chores for grandma to pay their public radio subscription (and delivering the check in person with her), and carrying the food donations into the food bank (though cash is probably more useful, I start concrete). It's telling me what to write in the letters for soldiers deployed overseas at holiday time. It's all small actions, but physical ones - threads and then more threads, over time weaving into a sense that we are responsible for our community and our earth. There are sites and books specifically for helping kids volunteer. (We've also discussed this here, before, too - that finding what THEY have a passion for and following that is more satisfying than trying to bring them into our passions - for them, for us, and for the people working the charity, too.) So, watch to see what she gravitates toward, and then start checking into the sites geared toward kids helping others. (Mainly I think 4 is the youngest I *try* for, so you have time to look around and figure out where to start.)

BTW, charitable work is another good grandparent role to consider. And it's loads of fun for the grandparents to explore the value of volunteering and charitable work at any level, with the grandkids (presuming there's a working relationship there to start with).

[M]

Great post, but boy did it make me miss my Mom, who always lit up when I entered the room.

[hedra]

@enu, I agree on the athiest front as well. And agnostics. And pagans. I (maybe strangely) consider athiesm as a 'faith path' because it's defined in relation to faith. They can choose that, too, without me feeling a loss, provided it is a true resonance with their core, and not (as I know any faith choice in any direction can be) a choice based on fear or anger or a sense of betrayal.

Ah, discussions for another day, huh? :)

[songbird]

"Putting yourself down in front of your kids is dangerous. NEVER do it!"

This one was interesting. Why is it dangerous? What message does it send?

[hedra]

I'm also glad you mentioned the being polite with your kids. Before we had kids, we decided that it was more important to be polite and respectful to the ones we loved than it was to strangers - yet we (culturally) typically are far more rude to our dearest ones than we'd ever dream of being with someone we don't even know. It's strange. (And as a result of that decision, we got a teacher running across the parking lot just to tell us how much of a pleasure it was to have our son in her "manners" class, because he UNDERSTOOD manners, polite words, and used them so well... and without any excess of formality, I might add, too. It was a nice moment.)

@songbird, the same is really the issue here - putting anyone down is disrespectful, and unkind. Putting ourselves down is disrespectful and unkind to ourselves. Modeling means they'll learn that neither we NOR they deserve respect and kindness, by that lesson. If we put ourselves down, they, by extension, become comfortable with others putting *them* down. And that is a contributor to abusive relationships, at the very least. Respecting and honoring ourselves is how we show them that everyone deserves respect.

I'm of course presuming that's what she meant, but that's how I read it, and what I've believed for a long long time.

[Cathy]

@songbird - I think it sends the message that you think poorly of yourself, which has many ramifications downriver.

Start with some sort of goofy flub that we all do from time to time. Say, "I am so stupid." Your kids might think that you believe that you are actually stupid. (which you may or may not, but especially younger kids are very literal). And if you don't think you are worthy of thinking highly of yourself, then who is? And these are children who came from your body, who are very much a part of you. If you think you are stupid, what do you think of them? It's a slippery slope.

And they might not get all of the ramifications at first, but they'll get them eventually. Laughing at yourself is one thing, and acknolwedging your mistakes and forgiving yourself is important too, but putting yourself down is something else.

[holly]

Fantastic subject! What a great model to have in your life! Thanks for sharing Moxie!

I love the part about acting excited each time you see your child. Here is an example of how NOT to endure yourself to your adult child: Say, "You look sick." or "You look tired." or "You look so sick and tired." upon each of her visits home from college or her adult married life! Isn't that weird? That is my mom!

I find the recurring theme of "boundaries" interesting from both yesterday's and today's post. Probably someone who is able to "give up her own self" for her children (or spouse), will later not respect the "self of the adult child." If you don't have boundaries for yourself, how will you help create and allow boundaries for your child? So, this resonated with me. It is all connected!

[Moxie]

Yep. Even "silly Mommy" makes a child feel insecure. Because if you're her whole world and make her feel safe, and you're not that competent because you're "silly" (or, even worse, "stupid"), then what kind of security does she have?

And if you're not that great, then she doesn't have to treat you nicely. Which means she doesn't have to treat herself nicely, either. And then other people don't have to treat her nicely.

Interestingly, the only criticism my mom ever (and I mean EVER) leveled on me when my son was teeny was to stop with the negative self-talk. I was his mother, which meant I needed to make him feel secure by respecting myself. We worked on reframing it to "Well, THAT didn't work out the way we thought it would, did it?" I didn't know it at the time, but it also helped frame things for him later on so he could make mistakes without feeling like a failure, too.

[Joceline]

"So a loved, respected child, by example, is likely to lavish love and respect back, and seek the company of that wellspring."

Beautiful. I was just thinking about this idea the other day, though not so eloquently worded (in my head). My 7mo, who at his young age expresses exactly what he wants to, will just give kiss after sloppy wet kiss when he's feeling extra loved (hugged, cuddled, tickled, etc). In comparison, we have my husband's 8yo brother who was adopted from Africa last year, who often bristles at signs of love and affection, and who tends to respond to love and respect with fear, anger, and disrespect. It's not his fault--he's had such a lack of those things in his life that he doesn't know how to handle them when they are given to him. It makes me so sad thinking about all of the children all over the world who are denied these basic things for a variety of reasons and the damage that it does.

Thanks Moxie's mom! So much more resonated with me, and I'll be returning to this post again and again for reminders!

[m]

Now *this* is what should be taught at prenatal class!

Thank you, Moxie's Mom (and Moxie for sharing your Mom with us). I know I'm going to return to this list a lot.

[Joceline]

Holly-is your mom related to my grandma? Sounds just like her! "You look tired!" or (my personal favorite) when my son was 6 days old, she came to my house to visit and meet the baby, she said to me "Boy, you sure need to start doing your exercises, don't you?"

I am able to shrug those things off pretty easily, as she was not the one raising me, but I see how those types of criticisms chip away at my mom and her sister, even now that they are in their fifties. My mom and my sisters and I VOW never to do that to our children.

[Maria Wood]

I love it. What I need to work on:

• Lighting up when I see P. I'm good about telling her I'm so happy to see her when I pick her up from school, but other times I don't remember so well.

• Being especially polite to P. I am good about please and thank you with her, but I suspect my tone of voice doesn't always convey the same message. And when we're with other people, I am terrible about it. Part of it is my fear of judgement, particularly from my family members, which makes me tense and anxious, which of course makes it worse.

• Care for myself. I'm definitely better at this as a mom in my late 30s than I would have been if I'd had a child earlier, but still something I really need to work on.

• Acceptance. Which Moxie's mom may not have specifically mentioned, but oozes out between every word of her post. I think I tend to forgive with an attitude of helplessness rather than mercy, if that makes any sense.

I have some hope that when I move this summer out of the area and out of the family culture of non-child-friendliness I will regain some of my previous relaxed attitudes toward P's learning curve, but I'm not deluding myself that all will magically be idyllic.

Moxie, would you consider doing a 60 day parenting challenge? I am not keeping up with the current challenge, but I think a little external motivation with support checking in would be great for helping me get new habits entrenched.

[Moxie]

Oooh, Maria. 60 Day Parenting Challenge. That's a really interesting idea.

[hedra]

@Maria Wood, I really like that idea. Me, too! Though it's all interrelated, I like the target.

@Moxie, we do say 'silly mommy' but it has to do with, well, acting silly, not making a mistake. Most of the time. I think I've slipped up now and then. But we're serious about the wording, even when I'm having a bad day. (granted, we're kind of wordy-wordy people) It's not 'Mommy's brain is broken' it's 'Mommy's tired and had a long day.' (Though the kids definitely know that I need supplements to function optimally, as R asked me the other day when I was grouchy if I'd taken my medicine yet... um, no, and thanks! :wince: 3 1/2, and she knows I need my meds. Sigh. Ah, well, it's honest, anyway.) And Silly Mommy? Silly Mommy is the one who dances funny to make them laugh. It's a title, not a condition. ;)

[mo]

Hi... this week will be interesting for me. I have a very interesting relationship with my mom. Growing up, it was not so good. She really wasn't a good mom - too young, trying to find herself, more interested in finding a mate, etc. I truly felt like I came second/third/fourth most days. She's finally found herself (ironically now that she has, dating isn't such a high priority) and is in a much better place.

Now that I have my boys, I think we've really hit our stride. I think she sees this as a "redo" opportunity for how she treats me, how she "mothers" my little guys, etc. Only thing I'll have to be really careful about is making sure the boundaries don't get too muddled in the process but they seem to be more present as the boys have gotten a little older (they are preschool aged now).

That said, it is amazing how a little offhanded comment can grate and stay with me for so long. I think it speaks to my insecurities about my parenting abilities.

I currently say "Silly Mommy" quite a bit... The comments on that make a lot of sense logically so I think that is something I need to work on (60 day parenting challenge??).

Thank you for the great topic this week. I am inspired by Num-Num, Moxie's mom as well as so many of the posters.

[chaosgirl]

Moxie, your mum rocks. What fantastic advice. I never thought of the potential pitfalls of making self-depricating quips in front of my child.

One of the scariest things about becoming a mom was the fear that I would reinvent the errors my mother made. Though I know she tried her best (three kids, constantly moving, and often handling it all on her own for weeks on end while my dad traveled for work) she did some pretty nasty stuff. Among the nastiest was putting us down in front of others or purposely shaming us about out shortcomings. Sadly, this was combined with her philosophy of *never* apologizing for anything she did. Deadly. Not surprising that, by age 11, I didn't trust her any more. And even less surprising was the internalizing of this nasty package leading to depression and low self-esteem in my teens.

When emotions are running high in my own family (usually with my husband - my son is only 7 mos), I can feel the disgusting urge to reinvent her wheel. Fortunately, I can usually recognize it before it escapes my mouth but, if not, I am 110% ok with taking responsibility and apologizing. But once it's said, the damage is done, right?

I love the idea of the 60-day parenting challenge.

[michaela]

hmmm... i'm not sure where i fall on "silly mommy," which is something i say a fair bit. sometimes it's because i've forgotten something that i meant to do, or left the apple in the kitchen rather than bringing it to the table; others it's because i am actually being silly at that moment. last night, in fact, my 2 y.o. girl named everyone she could think of who is silly -- mommy, daddy, the dog, herself, and on and on.

i guess i'm not sure how that makes her see me as incompetent.

one thing i do worry about, though, is the extent to which she feels compelled to care for me. from my own childhood, i have no idea of where the boundary lies between her solicitousness for me, which shows caring and empathy and sweetness, and what i hope is NOT her sense of responsibility for me. i felt that responsibility - for both my mother and my younger sister - so strongly, and absolutely do NOT want my girl to have that burden. so when she tilts her head, pats me on the arm and says, "is you not tired today, mommy?" i have no idea how to react.

stopping now before i get even further afield...

[Andrea]

This was lovely. I'm going to print it out so I can keep it (which I don't often say about blog posts, so).

It's funny, because I do say "Mummy was silly, wasn't I?" or "that was silly" sometimes, but it's my way of admitting that I'm fallible and not always perfect, and it doesn't seem to bother Frances at all. She'll laugh and say, "silly Mummy!" And that's the end of it. Otherwise I feel pretty secure that she respects me (as she's always telling me that I'm a great Mummy, no lie) and feels secure about me and my affections for her. Maybe it has more to do with the tone and intent?

What I never do is call myself stupid or fat or whatever. That is dangerous. Mostly to me because the child will learn from that example, not only not to respect the mother, but to talk to himself or herself that way too, which is the last thing we want for our kids.

[Tigger]

Like paola, the guilt paragraph describes my MIL perfectly. My mom is the good kind, which means my husband and I (and our baby boy) spend 90% of our grandparent time with my mom and 10% with my MIL.

I say "silly mommy" about myself a lot, but the baby is only 9 weeks old so far. I'm usually making a funny face too.

[holly]

Joceline - Yep, that exercise comment is right on the money! My mom and your grandmother may be of the same generation. My mom is 77 - she had me "late in life" - well, it was considered late in life back then. (I turned 40 this year and just had my second child.) Was your mother able to "break the trend" and not make those statements to you? I hope so! I hope I can!

I was able to start to "shrug off these comments" when I got in my 30's and realized it wasn't me, but a persistent bad habit of a negative view.

Now, she is starting to do it to my children. I have talked with her about it, but she always says she is saying something else and doesn't see the harm. I have repeatedly asked her to try to say positive things. She continues and says that she is "too old to change."

I read something to ask yourself when interacting with your child, "Is this creating a connection? Or breaking it?" I try to remember this and find it helps me be polite. I can expressed my feelings and redirect/discipline in a way I later feel comfortable with. But, it IS HARD, especially when I am around others - especially family. And, I am not always successful, but I try.

So, just writing this, I realized, again how it is all related. By being excited when you see your child, you are making a positive connection. By maintaining your "self" you create opportunities for future connections.

[ada]

Lovely post. It sounds very much like what my mother strived for. And we are very good adult friends now. I think repsecting your child's privacy is very, very important. My mother was very good about always doing that. Looking back, by doing so, she was showing us that she respected us and our ability to make our own decisions. Even when she didn't agree with those decisions (i.e. moving in with my husband before I got married).

I like the idea of a 60-day parenting challenge. I already know a couple of things I'd like to strive for, based on this post and the comments.

My son in only 9 mo, so the best way to be a parent is to work on establishing good patterns with my husband. I'd like to work on being more respectful and polite to my husband. And stopping the negative self-talk and reframing the situation. Moxie - I *love* how you reframed things to "Well, THAT didn't work out the way we thought it would, did it?" I am DEFINITELY going to try and incorporate that into my entire life (work, home, personal)

[Charisse]

Moxie, your mom is awesome! Now I know why it feels like another planet when you write about her--what a great planet. :)

I agree about the "silly Mommy" to an extent--I work on how to handle mistakes a lot because Mouse, at 4, has a fierce perfectionist streak (where on earth could she have gotten that??? hahahaha...and I'm not even the biggest one in our marriage) and I'm trying to visibly model the fact that I do make mistakes, I do sometimes get frustrated about it, and then I figure out how to recover. HARD sometimes to explain to that level what it means that you put the wrong due date for the property taxes on the calendar and now you're frustrated because we have to pay extra...and here's what we're going to do and it will be OK. So many "whys" and "what ises" in that sequence--I know having patience with them and being honest is the right thing to do, but it's a lot lot lot of calm explaining instead of the cursing I'd do on impulse. (Of course, the other day I caught Mouse whispering "dammit" under her breath when a difficult toy balance wasn't working for her--just like I do to keep her from hearing me. Oy.)

Love the lighting up part--it's easy to do, and it seems so important.

[jessica]

Well, it's a far cry from when I went far away to college and my mom told me "Don't expect me to write. I am not good with keeping up correspondence; I can't be bothered." But, to her credit, at least the expectation was clearly presented.

So, Moxie's Mom, kudos to you- you did a great job.

[AnonforThis]

I understand the spirit of these posts and I generally think I'm a good mom, but my gut reaction to today and yesterday is despair. These rules seem impossible to follow, peppered as they are with "nevers" and "always." I take parenting very seriously, but these lists of tasks are overwhelming.

Usually the talk here at Ask Moxie is loving and tempered with the understanding that motherhood is difficult and none of us are perfect. I feel safe in expressing my shortcomings. These last few posts have set a high standard of motherhood that I don't think I can ever achieve. I feel like I've failed already.

[Linda]

Okay, so I was anon above. Didn't exactly work out like that, but I still stand by what I said. I feel discouraged.

[Sarah]

I like these posts, but they do feel hard to live up to. And I am not sure I have "gotten it" because I find myself thinking about how to be in 15 years rather than the here and now.

I didn't feel like my mom expressed regret for mistakes or even admitted she made mistakes, or expressed anger, which has made me feel a need to be more transparent about my emotions. But the "silly mommy" comments have hit home for me. Maybe I need a new way. How does one admit they made a mistake, own up, and not put oneself down? If I understood that, perhaps what I am trying to teach my own children would be clearer.

The 60 Day parenting challenge sounds hard, but that's probably why it's a good idea :)

[rowan+keaton+mama]

I have the personality of a die-hard rule follower so parenting seems like such an impossible task for me because there are no rules-wait, there's a million rules-wait,there's rules but they are all open to interpretation, no one's right, everybody's right etc. etc..AHHH! I sympathize with Anonforthis/Linda because I see the gaping hole my mother left in these data points and the small holes I've already made in my nearly 3 years of parenting. But seeing them written out on paper (or screen) makes the rule follower in me so damn happy. These are good things to strive for. Perfection isn't the aim here but what a great set of guidelines to revisit when you feel like your relationship with your kids is getting out of hand or just doesn't feel right.
Following these points and analyzing how they fit into my mom and I's relationship will be very therapeutic for me. So thank you, because I am so confused over what expectations I should hold/have in our relationship- might get me on that mythical road to forgiveness I've heard so much about.

60 day parenting challenge- YES!!!!!!!

[Katie B.]

"Controlling by guilt is a good way to drive your adult children away."

I wish my mom could grasp that. Funny thing is, she doesn't think she does it!

I love her very much, and we have a pretty good relationship, but it's striking that when she called to chat the other night (wow, she called me! and didn't give me grief for not having called her recently!), my main reaction after we hung up was, "wow, she almost didn't whine!"

Other than that, she always did so much of what Moxie's mom talks about; it's sad that all we (my brothers and I) can see now are the things that make us want to run.

Thank you, Moxie's Mom; I'm having a hard proto-mommy day, and I needed to be reminded that there's a good side to it all.

[hedra]

@Linda, you've got my sympathy and support.

It's hard to express how often my mother totally blew it. I was feeling uncomfortable with the people saying 'it's so nice you had such a wonderful mother' in response. My mom hit the nail perfectly a few times, and muddled around in the middle a LOT. And yet - she's one of the 'good' ones. Fabulous, in fact. And good hairy GOD did she totally scr*w the pooch, some days, weeks, years.

It took her three years to figure out how to even be around one sister without setting her off, and she still doesn't entirely 'get' her.

She said the right things at the right times - sometimes. And she did the right things at the right times - sometimes.

And other times, she lost control. Raged or wept. Threatened beatings, used shame and guilt as weapons, didn't even know sometimes that she'd blown it so didn't apologize.

She blew it more than the average mom does. She just hit a lot of different marks.

Yes, those listed statements are and were her goals. But no, she didn't 'always' anything, or 'never' anything either.

And I don't expect to, myself. They're ideals, and ideals are just the target zone. As I noted myself - if I keep working this, I may have a child like Moxie. NOT if I *succeed* at this, but if I keep working it. Working means also messing up.

I can't meet these goals day in and day out. But I still hold them as goals - not so that I feel worse for not hitting the mark, but because I need a reminder some days of what exactly it was I was trying to do, in the middle of this mess.

I found myself driving in to work this morning, hoping my kids make it closer to those ideals than I do. And knowing that even one step closer is good. If I take my kids one step closer, and they take their kids one step closer, we're all moving out into the light. I'd love to land gloriously in an arabesque in the center of the ideal image of parenthood, but ... well, not happening here.

My mom and I discussed this recently - it's the 'where the rubber meets the road' issue - it's the getting up and doing it again, trying one more day, being there, and being there, and being there. Not stopping moving. Getting up and trying it again. (First post in my blog, I think, addressed this.) The ideal is shining and glorious and .. well, reality is grubby, awkward, with timing that didn't quite mesh, and kids that didn't go to sleep when they shoulda.

It isn't a perfect world, I agree. I guess I was reading the ideals listed as IDEALS only. They are not benchmarks. My mom... well, she aimed for those points. And she missed them sometimes wildly. She yelled, she despaired, she told me that she didn't have time for me, she crossed boundaries of privacy. And here *I* am. Taking the best of it, and learning from the scrambling and trying and yearning toward that goal as much as I learn from the perfect 10 landings.

Mainly, I get it sorta right. And funny, we're human, evolved to be raised by humans, and we do pretty darn well with normal humans TRYING to do well, and seriously not alway succeeding, especially when sleep-deprived.

So, I hear ya. And I didn't mean to make it worse - it's hard to show the full flavor, depth, and color of the experience. And trust me, some of the best things I ever learned from my mom are things I learned by deciding to NOT repeat what she did. I have only regard for her efforts, even where she dropped the ball utterly.

It IS hard. It's inhumanly hard. And perfection is not the point. Good enough, that's great. And even good enough has some serious misfires included.

[AmyinMotown]

I felt that way about the passage Joy posted (no offense Joy, I know you didn't write it) which I found very scoldy (skip the smoking, drinking and coffee breaks? yeah, THAT's why I am tired. Bite me) and I always picture that people who write with that tone either have no children or their children turned out to be drug addicts and Enron style cheats), but not the two posters from today and yesterday. Plus, if you're a halfway healthy parent (and you are, I read your blog) much of this is just sort of standard operating procedure. For example, "Light up when your child comes in the room" doesn't mean you MUST every time, or at 4 am when they ask for their nine millionth drink of water (at least that's not how I read it) but create a general atmosphere where they feel treasured and important and loved, that their parents genuinely like them and enjoy spending time with them. I took this as more about philosophy than specifics, maybe?

[hedra]

Okay, I should say 'spankings' rather than 'beatings'... she only spanked me once that I can recall. Still definitely NOT on the list of ideals above!

[Linda]

Thanks. I feel kind of stupid trying to be anonymous, but I hate criticizing (unless you're married to me) and confrontation makes me feel icky inside.

I know that perfection isn't expected, and it wasn't Mama Moxie, but that passage that Joy posted that felt overly intimidating, the idea that I'm failing if I'm not

"so inexhaustible, rambunctious, jolly, full of devilry and frolic, of stories, of dramatisations, of actions, of backward somersaults, or athletics and tomfoolery, of hilarity, that your children at last after hours of violent exercise, worn down by laughter and intellectual excitement, with pale, neurasthenic frowns on their foreheads cry: 'Plee...eease, Mama, go to bed!'"

Because that is so not me. Yes, I am silly and fun sometimes, but I also make sure that there is food in the fridge and clean clothes in the closets and the dust bunnies don't eat us alive. Sometimes parenting is monotonous, tasky business and that passage doesn't allow for it.

I'm sure that Joy meant that as a positive, this-is-a-great-thing-to-which-to-aspire idea, but I ALWAYS breathe a sigh of relief when my kids are in bed for the night. I am not interested in being the type of parent in that paragraph and I was suddenly struck by insecurity.

[ginger]

One more chiming in to say a huge THANKS for the posts this week! My relationship with my mom has taken a huge hit since the birth of my second, and I'm not sure how to put the pieces back together. Or what my responsibility there is. So I'm reading with great interest - and with a keen eye to figuring out how to be a better parent myself.

Oh, and I'm a bit of a perfectionist myself (used to just give up on something once I'd made a mistake - can't really do that now!), so I can see how all of this can be totally overwhelming & depressing at times. But I'm learning to be kinder to myself (slowly) - and these last two posts are incredible goals to set and guidelines to check in with. Thanks for sharing Moxie!

[Joy]

@AmyinMotown- Yeah, I should have maybe qualified that quote a little. Definitely to be taken with lots of grains of salt. Her tone is very, very scoldy, and not to be taken literally. It just makes me laugh when I read it... like any parent EVER really has that much energy... not. It makes me think about all the mundane things I say to my kids day in and day out; helps keep the nagging in check a little, for me. Sorry if it came across as crass and insensitive; I can see how it could.

[sharon aka mommie mentor]

Moxie, your mom is articulate, wonderful and has nailed it. We can all see how our beloved Moxie was raised by reading your mother’s words! I can't read everyones post today, I have to get to work, forgive me if while writing this the post moved on.

I woke up wanting to apologize to the moms on this blog for not really addressing the true question posed yesterday, “What’s a parent’s responsibility to an adult child.” Instead I spoke about how my roots informed my parenting and caused my healing, those words just leapt from my soul. When that happens to me I trust that there’s a reason for my blathering and I go with it, thanks for listening.

However after reading Moxie’s mom’s post today, I realized that the healing of my childhood wounds was and is my version of a Parents Responsibility to an Adult Child, even when your child is 14 months!

If any of us, no matter how old our children are, want to get to where Moxie’s mom is, where we can support, respect, enjoy and play with our adult children, then our responsibility, in my humble opinion, is to clear away our past wounds, in the best way we can, so we’re capable of doing the hardest and most heroic thing a parent ever has to do, let go of her adult children!

In order for parents to find the ability to let go, they need to work backwards first, and clear their own path. Regardless of how old your child is, a parent needs to find, unwrap and try to clear away their childhood wounds so they can find themselves as an individual, and as a parent. Parents need to try to let go of the resentment of unanswered needs. Or that resentment will haunt them, and infect their relationship with their children all the way into adulthood.

I, like many others who posted yesterday, didn’t have a Moxie type mom, and one of my deepest fears was I wouldn’t be able to be the kind of mom I wanted to be. I wondered how was I going to find a deep connection to my beautiful child when I had not experienced a deep connection?

So many of you spoke of the pain of needing your mom when you began to parent and either she just didn’t respond at all or she didn’t respond the way you hoped she would.

I, too, needed my mom when I was a young parent and she wasn’t there, at all. She only did things on her terms, never to help me with my needs. Then I saw the pattern and that began my healing.

Her need to control and her powerlessness went into full swing when I had children. She would make remarks, “she doesn’t need me, she doesn’t listen anyway.”
She was right and she was wrong.

What I didn’t need was a repeat of the way she controlled my every move as a child. What I needed was a grown up mom to share with me and help me grow into my new role.

Therapy helped me realize the ridiculousness of I was expecting, why it would never happen and what I was doing to my kids in the process.

What I wanted was MY vision of my mom to finally show up.
I wanted my mom, who had never been a grownup to MAGICALLY become one and fill all of my needs and wounds so I could be whole as possible as I began this process with my children.
I wanted what I would never be able to have, and I blamed her and became resentful.

And since there was no place for my resentment to go, no way to discharge it, it leaked into my relationship with my beautiful children.

My illusion was that it was my mom’s responsibility to make me whole enough to raise my kids. She caused the wound, so I believed that it was her job to heal it for me.
I was wrong; it was and is my job!

My true wish, under my resentment, was to have a relationship, a warm–even if distant relationship with my mom.

The therapist also helped see that I wanted to repair my relationship with my parents before death is so I would have no regrets. I wanted no “I wish I had said that” in my life! My grandmother died in my arms, it was a beautiful blessing and made me see that I wanted no regrets at the end; it’s too late then.
Which is why I posted about moms PPD and apologized even though she’ll never see this post.

I believe that the clearing of childhood wounds, regrets, resentment, and blame can free us up to see if we agree with another’s “ideals” for parenting. If we have an issue, a question and uneasy feeling, with someone else’s “ideal” for raising OUR children, the answer for why we feel unable to attain those goals or why we feel defeated before we begin can be found in our past.

Which proves again why I believe clearing your past is a Parent’s Responsibility and best gift to their toddler, preschooler, child and adult child and future grandchild and it's never to early or too late to begin.

[Anna]

About "silly Mommy": I do find myself saying this,but in my case, it is a way to model a way to not take mistakes as seriously.

I am a major perfectionist, and always have been. And it has limited me in many ways. I actually gave up drawing--yes GAVE UP DRAWING--in kindergarden, because we got an assignment to draw a self-portrait and I knew mine didn't look anything like me. (At least as good as the other kids' stick figures, but this was an internal thing...)

I feel so sad for the 5-year-old me when I look back on that, and it's still a struggle for me to try things I'm not good at instantly or to make mistakes. (BTW, this has nothing to do with my mother, who did a fantastic job of supporting efforts more than characteristics or accomplishments.)

So I say, "silly Mommy" mostly for me--like, that was a silly mistake, no big deal, the kind anyone would make, I can laugh at this. Pretty much the way Moxie says, "Well THAT didn't work out the way we planned, did it?" But I think that Moxie's wording may be a nice fine-tuning of my "mistakes are OK" modeling for my daughter.

@Maria Wood, your comments were SO helpful to me. You took the fantastic things we read and articulated an action list for yourself. I'd love to do the same and take part in a 60-day parenting challenge. I get so much inspiration from reading these posts, but like Linda said, it can be kind of overwhelming to get it all at once.

I'd like to pick three smaller things to concentrate on (like using Moxie's "that didn't work out phrase" or remembering to say "please" and "thank you" to my daughter or making a concerted effort to appreciate, rather than resent, the time I spend rocking M. to sleep).

[Anna]

Oh, and @Linda and the sigh of relief when the children go to bed. Absolutely! It's gin in the cocktail shaker and a stack of food magazines and a half hour of quiet time. I look forward to it all day. I've always needed a little time to recuperate from the day--even more as a parent. I think everyone on Moxie agrees that parenting can be um, challenging, sometimes...