Getting along with your parents as an adult, part 1: The parent's responsibility

So I've been putting this off for years. Literally. Years. I get emails occasionally from people asking how to navigate the relationship with their parents (usually their mothers) and I haven't known exactly how to address it, because it's not like a simple three-step process and all of a sudden everything's good. So I'm going to devote the rest of this week to the parent-adult child relationship so we can really chew it over and maybe have some personal revelations.

It's my opinion, based on observation of my own relationship with my mother as well as observation of my adult friends' relationships with their own mothers, that there's only so much an adult child can do if their parent didn't/doesn't lay the groundwork for a good lifelong relationship. So today and tomorrow are going to be about reasonable expectations of the adult child's parent. I'm hoping some of my commenters with adult children of their own (Kathy B and Sharon Silver, in particular) will toss their own thoughts into the comments. (Thursday we'll talk about responsibilities of the adult child. Friday will be controlling the repercussions of your relationship with your parent to create an even better one with your own kids.)

For this week: parent = parent of the adult child, and child = adult child.

What's the responsibility of a parent to an adult child?

I called in two guests, since I'm not a parent of an adult child. Today's guest is my friend/mentor Num-Num (not her real name), who is the parent of an amazing, wonderful 40-year-old man* who voluntarily lives within walking distance of her (with his brilliant wife and their above-average preschooler). Num-Num says:

"I’ve answered the question for those of us who love mothering. For those who have felt burdened by it, it’s a whole other story, and it’s more about responsibility than love.

Mothering never changes. Boundaries change, responsibilities change, resources and life circumstances may, but mothering doesn’t.

There are few boundaries at birth and each separation is a brick in a wall of independence, both for you and your child. Long before adolescence, a child’s body has been turned over to her to care for. (That’s when you might think about the wisdom of criticizing her hair.)

After adolescence, her mind and heart gradually separate from her mother’s. But just as your own mother is more important to you than you might have imagined when you were a rebellious teenager, your children will feel the same way. It is shocking, sometimes, how much weight a casual motherly comment will carry. (You’re using cloth diapers? All I can say is thank God for disposables.)

At each major stage in your child’s life, she goes through turmoil that resembles leaving the womb, especially when she exits out into the world. For those of us who have loved being mothers as much as we’ve loved our children, the last is the critical time. You never stop being a mother, but you back off, gradually, while she tests out who she is and what she wants from life. You keep one hand lightly on the small of her back and send brownies.  Be prepared for a certain disdain for your opinions as she adapts to her own generation and a world that is new to her, if not to you.

She ought to be able to count on you to remind her of the constant thread of her gifts, of the track record of her successes, and of how much you believe in her. Don’t worry about setting her straight about her faults; she’ll encounter others happy to do that.

Some common interests, developed over the years, help you spend your time together without the need to examine every inch of your personal lives, or chew your child’s small and large decisions to pieces. Is there any decision anyone ever makes, from when you start feeding a baby solids to which spouse or profession to choose that can’t be challenged?

Recognize that as your child becomes independent she needs you less, but when she does,  she may startle you by turning into the ten-year-old you had almost forgotten about. Unnerved as you may be, when you hear that desperate cry, drop everything. It’s been said that soldiers call for their mothers in the heat of battle. It’s primitive.

Children also have a duty to establish their own families. Loving them often means waiting to be called on to help; believing that if you figured out how to raise your children, they’ll do the same; trusting that you’ve given them a good road map and, even if they’re off on a detour, they know the way back. Most important in families is for the grandparents to understand (and to call on memory) that their grandchildren do not belong to them. Parents get to decide when and how you see them. There is nothing to beat the enchantment of grandchildren, but they are someone else’s children.

Mothers of adult children also have some realistic expectations as well. Your children need to know that you may not be able to help them in ways you could when you were younger. You ought to tell them, really you should. When you need your children, it’s also a natural thing for families to sacrifice for one another and give each other love and comfort. There is no time limit on that. But the hierarchy of needs that’s been mentioned should have everything to do with the seriousness of the need, not the person who has the need.

I haven’t talked about specific situations. But I’d be glad to, if it would help make the principles seem more real. If you have an endless series of conflicts with your Mother, decide  what your self-respect requires you to do for her. Then look for role models and semi-surrogates in your life. You have only one Mother, but there can be multiple motherly influences.

With all my instructions about holding back, mothering with a light hand, being positive and rarely interfering, I have always told my children that I reserve the right to pull them back if I see a Mack Truck coming their way. I get to judge whether or not it’s a truck."  

I see Num-Num working constantly to get it right with her son and DIL, to be close enough without smothering them. I think this is particularly important: "the hierarchy of needs that’s been mentioned should have everything to do with the seriousness of the need, not the person who has the need."

What resonates with you in what Num-Num says?

Tomorrow's guest poster is going to be my mom. Get ready, because it's a loooong post.

* Cute, funny, smart, a provider, does his share of night duty, enjoys being around women. He's not perfect, I'm sure, but she really did a great job with him.

Comments

[Sarah]

What resonates? All of it was a wonderful read, but my heart seriously broke reading of having to let her go out into the world and take a step back to allow her to experience it in her own way.

My daughter is turning 1 on Saturday and I'm already sad thinking about her growing up and needing me less, albeit a fact of life necessary for her to become who she is. Hopefully putting her needs before my own need to be close with her will come naturally in my wanting her to have all the opportunities she deserves.

Excellent, excellent words of wisdom! Thank you.

[paola]

'each separation is a brick in a wall of independence'

Oh, so true. My child's first day at kindergarten at the ripe old age of 3 and one day was one of these moments.

Now that I have my own children I often think how frightened for me my own mother must have been when I finally left her safe little nest. I was definitely not very street-wise back then. I had never done much by myself before deciding to leave the country at 21 with a man they had never met and to a place that was waaaaay too unknown and foreign (Japan) back in the 80's.And to make matters worse I also had a serious life threatening allergy to nuts and buckwheat for her to worry about. Back then there was no e-mail or internet or cheap phone cards that could help you keep in touch on a regualar basis. Months went by at a time without having had a letter or a phone call. My God, if my kids ever do that too me!!

[Nutmeg]

As the daughter in a difficult relationship with a mother who has some very real mental health issues I have struggled with all of this since I was out of college and on my own. And for the first time I realized that I wasn't responsible for her.

I'm looking forward to this week, because as my mental health has improved greatly since I was finally able to see that I wasn't really a bad person, a bad child etc and that my mother's emotional well being wasn't my responsibility, my mother is still ill. It's easier now to not blame her and let go of the hurt she causes every time I see her, but the paths we tread every time we interact are so fraught with mines, I never know how things will be left.

I loved this post really, and it left me feeling warm, even though my own relationship with my parent is not an easy one.

[Maria Wood]

For all intents and purposes I lost my mother when she had a massive stroke when I was about 23. She lived for another 6 years, but our roles were absolutely reversed. While sometimes glimpses of my own real mother snuck through after her stroke, she was for the most part too debilitated to hold up her end of a mother-daughter relationship.

So maybe I don't belong in this thread, but the relationship and the loss reverberate through my life in huge ways to this day, 9 years after her death. 2 years ago I made a huge interstate move with my then-2-year old daughter, back to the farm I grew up on, and it took me about a year and a half to figure out that my mom's not here anymore!

I didn't know I was looking for her when I moved back … there were lots of other good reasons for moving, like putting distance between me and an abusive ex (another repercussion…), being near (still living) family, better housing opportunities… but the underlying thing was absolutely trying to find my mom.

I won't hijack this thread anymore, but my intense reaction to this topic may be an indication that it's finally time for me to take a look at The Mother Loss Workbook, which has been languishing on my bookshelf literally for years. If anybody wants to have a separate discussion on this, maybe we can email or take it to my blog or something…

Thanks Moxie, for the safe space.

[michaela]

I recently commented to my husband that I feel like the natural order of things is that I will always love my daughter (just turned 2) a bit more than she loves me. The thought made me a little sad, but it also gave me some sorely needed perspective on my own mother. I can't figure out how to summarize the latter relationship effectively, except to say that the major task of my adult life has been figuring out what an appropriate, comfortable (maybe even enjoyable!) relationship with my parents looks like.

Really looking forward to this week of posts, Moxie -- thanks for tackling the topic.

[p]

One thing that resonates with me still, after almost 20 months, is that the during first weeks at home alone with my son (he was 2 weeks old) she offered to come visit (we leave in the same city). I told her to come during the day, in the early afternoon, because that was when I was alone and needed most help. My husband would be home later at night after work. Later that day, she arrived home 10 minutes after he did.
It may seem really petty for me to pinpoint this seemingly unimportant story, but I feel it reflects her attitude towards our relationship. Her needs come first, even when I was going through a very difficult time.
She works at home, knitting, so she clearly could have knitted at night and visited me during the day.
Perhaps it has to do with me not explaining it to her in a very clear way. I just told her what I wanted. I didn't tell her that during the day hours I felt like crying most of the time from desperation.
So, I will wait for the next post about my responsibility toward our relationship.
I believe this relates to "You keep one hand lightly on the small of her back and send brownies."
I do not know why, but having a child made me reanalize our relationship, maybe because I needed someone to help me and I used to think it would be her. I have not felt during the last couple of years a hand lightly on my back, but I have felt her stare from a distance and judge most of my decisions, participating only when it is most convenient to her.
Sorry for the long post, just needed to share this and see if any of you have any insight or have been through similar experiences.

[pam]

One thing that resonates with me still, after almost 20 months, is that the during first weeks at home alone with my son (he was 2 weeks old) she offered to come visit (we leave in the same city). I told her to come during the day, in the early afternoon, because that was when I was alone and needed most help. My husband would be home later at night after work. Later that day, she arrived home 10 minutes after he did.
It may seem really petty for me to pinpoint this seemingly unimportant story, but I feel it reflects her attitude towards our relationship. Her needs come first, even when I was going through a very difficult time.
She works at home, knitting, so she clearly could have knitted at night and visited me during the day.
Perhaps it has to do with me not explaining it to her in a very clear way. I just told her what I wanted. I didn't tell her that during the day hours I felt like crying most of the time from desperation.
I believe this relates to "You keep one hand lightly on the small of her back and send brownies."
I do not know why, but having a child made me reanalize our relationship, maybe because I needed someone to help me and I used to think it would be her. I have not felt during the last couple of years a hand lightly on my back, but I have felt her stare from a distance and judge most of my decisions, participating only when it is most convenient to her.
So, I will wait for the next post about my responsibility toward our relationship.
Sorry for the long post, just needed to share this and see if any of you have any insight or have been through similar experiences.

[Stephanie]

I think michaela is exactly right - I will always love my children more than they love me. I think it just works that was and I guess their turn is when they have their own children.

I'm 34, mother of two, and currently staying with my parents for a month (husband is away doing Army stuff). I think one of the reasons that I'm able to spend so much time with my mom and my kids is that she really does let me do it my way and only offers input when I ask, or, occasionally, when she is very concerned about something. It helps that we agree on many things, although I sometimes wonder how she feels about the fact that my daughter is still nursing. But she lets me make the decisions and doesn't criticize.

As for sending my own kids off into the world, well, that thought makes me sad even though I have at least 15 years to go.

[Hilary]

What a great post!

Several parts resonated with me. First of all, I had a rocky relationship with my mother when I was a teenager, and our relationship is much better know. I love the analogy of having to go through the turmoil of leaving the womb with every major life change.

I also would like to emphasize the importance of realizing that your grandchildren are the children of someone else, and unless there are dire circumstances, do not overstep those bounds. Of course, we all want to share advice and experience, but there are clear boundaries that should not be crossed.

My MIL and FIL harassed to change our baby's name (we did - ugh, long story) and bullied us to circumcise our son (we didn't). They definitely went beyond the casual opinion giving stage and resorted to aggressive, dominating interference, repeated phone calls, and angry orders. It almost caused my husband and me to separate and, I fear, caused serious damage to our early relationship that has just been repaired recently.

[Lisa F.]

as an adult child w/very conflicted relationships w/my parents, I will be glued here this week. my mom has been very distant most of my life it seems, angry during my childhood (unhappy in her marriage) distant during my teen years (having at the least an emotional affair w/her boss a friend of the family) and in her own world after divorcing my father & marrying her boss.

for years I made her "the bad guy" but then as I got further away from things geographically & started looking at my issues, I see my dad's part in the whole dynamic, and can appreciate the difficulties she had being his wife.

now as a mom, I'm having a hard time w/her again. the part that got me most about the post this morning was
"she may startle you by turning into the ten-year-old you had almost forgotten about. Unnerved as you may be, when you hear that desperate cry, drop everything." I muffle that desperate cry for her, because she won't drop anything for me. her life & her husband come first. she didn't come when my child was born & after I asked her to (against my better judgement.)

navigating this & finding out what works for me and keeps me safe emotionally is the hard part, resisting the natural urge to turn toward "mommy." but the habit of staying safe & not asking for help has inhibited me being able to find surrogate mother figures & build community.

shoot there's so much MUCH more to write & not enough time.

thanks Moxie.

@Maria Wood, I'll be thinking of you.

[Shandra]

I'm all choked up wishing my mother could realize half of these things.

It is funny how mothers do have this casual power, and I hope to stay aware of it forever. About 3 years ago when I was pregnant my husband and I were discussing moving 4 hrs away from my parents.

My mother's reaction was to strike out and one of the things she said during that time was that she and my father like my sister more than they like me, that they are more comfortable staying in her home and that they wouldn't want to stay with us.

Even after years of therapy I wasn't prepared for the feelings that fight/remark unleashed in me. Having lost my daughter the year before and being pregnant I think I was particularly vulnerable, but man. It haunts me still and recast our relationship.

[enu]

So far, I am finding the transition to parent of an (almost?) adult (and very mature) child nothing too traumatic. I hold back criticism and (especially) overprotective influences to the best of my ability. My own relationship with my folks has been exceedingly sunny, so I wasn't heading into this transition with major fears.

I do think adultish child is bending way over to make things work for me right now, and I remind her that while I am very appreciative, she is NOT responsible for the managament of our house! Then she goes and leaves huge gross mess of dunkin D's stuff in my car (leaking!) and I think, well, things are okay, she's not obsesssing ;-) She'll be globestrotting nonstop for years, so I have to chill about the worry thing -

I reserve the right to change my opinion about all this as second child moves into her final year at home full time...

[hedra]

I remember standing in the freezer aisle of the grocery store, when I was probably about 4 years old, and my mother telling me that I would not understand for a very long time how much she loved me, that it wasn't possible for me to understand, and that yes, she loved me more than I loved her - more than I would *ever* love her. AND that this was entirely okay and normal and *right*. She gave me a hug (one-armed, holding frozen something in the other hand), and I filed the memory away to ponder. But I didn't fret on it, as she'd given me permission to love as I loved. But she'd also given me a cue that there was more to 'love' than the love I had for my mother.

And of course, she was right.

The entire post resonated, because that's pretty much what my mom has done. She's set me up to be my own person, and had the bracing hand ready, the brownies baked, and has stepped back into the shadows over and over.

I'm also reminded of another time that illustrated this, when I was about 15 or so, standing sobbing late at night in the doorway of her bedroom, begging her to tell me what to do, how to solve the heartache, what to choose? (something to do with a boyfriend, though I have no recollection of what or who). She made no move to embrace me or comfort me, but stood there in her nightgown with tears shining in her eyes, and said, 'the hardest thing you will ever do is to watch your child struggle and do nothing. But it is also the most important thing you will ever do. I cannot help you choose. You have to figure this out for yourself.' I turned away and went to cry in my room. But I went away subtly stronger than I'd come. I knew that if she knew I could *not* figure this out, she'd have helped. So I must be *able* to figure it out. And if I figured it out wrong, I also knew that I'd either figure it out again, or survive the catastrophe, or she'd backstop me if it became a total emergency. I was trusted, she had faith in me, and she gave me that by standing there and refusing to help me. It was a turning point for our relationship, and for my sense of self, as well. I talked *with* her more, after that, rather than at her. I felt more like an equal. And I hope to heck I have the courage and strength to say the same to my own kids (I suspect I will, if only because I must).

So, I guess the one thing I might disagree with is the brick and wall image. It's not a wall, it's a foundation (it just looks like a wall when it's being built right in front of your toes). A foundation for an entirely separate building, and one that might not even be built nearby (even if it feels like it's right there). When you step back far enough, I'll bet you can get a sense of the shape and size of it, and the completeness - mainly built by the other person, but boy those foundation blocks are essential, aren't they? The purpose of what appears to be a wall of separation is far different in function than an actual wall. It's utility is not in its ability to separate one space/person/life from another, but in its ability to support a new space/person/life completely and safely. Yes, separate, but the separateness is a side-effect, not the goal. The goal is selfhood. In our culture, we respond to the independence as a drawing away of self into individual, becoming independent when we started out so driven for connection and dependence... we see our role as helping with that process. In other cultures, it is assumed that children already ARE independence-driven, and must be taught how to be interdependent. (I just read a study of cultural bias in family psychology assessment, where asian researchers read family behaviors differently than western researchers, even when working from the same observational checklists.) Sorry, that's an aside, but worth noting - our assumptions also are part of the pain.

In response to the comments, I remember feeling the pain of the first few separation moments with my kids, the times when I saw the distance growing. It did ache (okay, the first one really bit deep), but it reminded me more of stretching a tight muscle - it hurt, but it was a good hurt at the same time. It felt healthy, even if it was ouchy. In my family, we call it 'stretching the emotional umbilical cord'. The trick is to stretch it over time to the point that (around mid-adolescence) it is just a thin thread of light, but still there. (We talked about this openly and often - and right now is the first time I wondered if talking about it was my mom's way of processing the discomfort that comes with it? Though being child six of seven, she'd done the rounds already.)

The problem with emotional umbilicals is that either party can sever it from their side. And when severed, people tend to try to plug it back in to ... someone, or something, and often with a desperation that makes it hard to figure out what you're doing or why. Maybe a bit like Maria, trying to find her mother again - the umbilical still exists, and the other end of it wants a home. We're very aware at a deep level when the umbilical is cut - or at least we notice it when we expect or need the connection to function, and it doesn't.

I can't think of anything that was missed in the laying out of the concepts in this post, really. Very useful synopsis. And really, that's what I'm aiming for, in phases, all along - there's already signs of it by a year, and SO MUCH of it by 10 years. Hand still on the back, words for the success and effort but not so much for the failures and weaknesses (except as real problem-solving discussions, and still with the final choice landing with them as often as humanly possible - they still DO have to go to school, after all... but there's so much on the way to getting to the bus stop that can be theirs entirely.)

Anyway, I think I'm pretty comfortable with the ache/stretch feeling at this point. It's nearly constant, but it's good, too. I'm watching the foundations build, and I think they're pretty darn solid so far.

@Maria Wood, I don't have any experience for you, but I wish you courage in working it through.

[Jojo]

Num-num. What a great name to use. That's the term we always used for nursing, and I think Num-Num's words in this post are definitely nursing the soul in all of us.

I will never forget the day that my mom summed up her parenting philosophy in one sentence. "My goal was to raise you kids so that you could be grown ups." I've always respected and admired her attidtude, even if she didn't always pull it off perfectly. But, I will say that now that I'm a mother, I realize just how hard it is to do that. I guess a few bumps in the road are to be expected.

[Andrea]

This was lovely. I'm looking forward to reading the rest of the week.

[Claudia]

Like Maria Wood, I need a different angle to this sort of discussion. I lost my mother to breast cancer when I was just shy of 2. I have no conscious memory of her, and the stories I got of her were not enough, and told to me oh so long ago. I grew up with a grandmother and stepmother, and neither filled that mother role, as I know I didn't permit it, and I never felt that it was an option anyhow.

I may need to look into The Mother Loss workbook, too.

Maria, feel free to email me --
czilla007AThotmailDOTcom

[Girl Jen]

I wish Num-Num could come over and give my mom a few lessons! I'll be watching these posts with interest; my relationship with my mom could use some improvement.

And Jojo, what your mother said makes perfect sense. I love it. I am going to raise my little Lizard so she can be a grown-up!

[hedra]

@jojo, my mom has stated the same exact goal, in nearly the same exact words! (Glad to know there are others out there.)

[Girl Jen]

I wish Num-Num could come over and give my mom some lessons! It seems like my mom still wants, maybe even needs, the level of control she had over my life when I was a teenager (we got along well back then, by the way).

But I am 26 and have a child of my own. Our relationship needs to change. The level of control is just one change that needs to be made.

I would love to have a mom who "raised me to be a grown-up" (brilliant, Jojo's Mom!) and "kept one hand lightly on the small of my back and sent brownies" (perfect, Num-Num!).

[electriclady]

I have said since I was pregnant that my goal as a mother is to raise my daughter so that she can walk away from me. Not meaning that I want to push her away, but what Jojo said about raising her to be an independent grownup. Because I've always felt that my mother had trouble seeing that I needed to move away from her, that I needed space to make my own mistakes and be my own person.

Part of it might be cultural--in her mind, the way she was raised, you always listen to your parents, no matter how old you are. I also wonder how much of it has to do with the fact that she lost her mother in her 20s. Perhaps she doesn't really know how to be a mother to an adult woman because she never had the chance to have an adult relationship with her own mother.

Looking forward to the rest of this week!

[Aaron]

I cried reading Num Num's words of wisdom and all of your posts. Not b/c I have a strained relationship with my mom, but b/c I can see how lucky I am to have such a good relationship with her. She is truly and awesome mom. She does what Num Num says, "keeps one hand lightly on the small of my back and sent brownies". She has always been so supportive and let me find my own way. I struggled a lot after I graduated high school and never once did she *tell* me what to do. But she was there to support me and to guide me when I asked, and was the one who helped turn the light bulb on in my head to realize that I needed to be a teacher. Every day I'm in awe of how much she really knows me.

She is a wonderful support for me with my daughter. All I wanted was to have her around during the day after E was born when I was so emotional and at a loss. Instead I had my MIL (only b/c she wouldn't go away and my mom was trying to respect our boundaries and not overwhelm us by being at our house all day). Eventually I broke down to her when she came by (after calling first - something my MIL is finally learning to do after repeated talkings to). She came upstairs to the nursery where I had escaped to nurse E. I lost it and said that all I wanted was to spend some time with MY mom. I felt better after saying that, and eventually my MIL stopped coming by EVERY day and I started getting out and going to my moms almost EVERY day, to make up for the time I didn't get to spend with her b/c of the MIL (can you tell I'm a little bitter about my MIL).

Anyway, the point is, I"m learning a lot from my mom about boundaries b/c she is pretty good at respecting them and I hope that I can do the same with my children.

Thanks for opening it up Moxie.

[anon]

Thank you for this.

I don't know if there is anything that can repair my relationships with my parents, short of a cure for Serious Mental Illnesses and all the complicated mess that goes along with all that.

My sister and I wonder how we turned out okay - yes we struggle with a lot of things, but we are able to deal with life anyway. Neither of us were planning to be parents because of our family history, but we are doing our best to keep from repeating it. We are trying to raise our children to be good adults, hopefully without the scars and burdens we have.

Sometimes I really miss having a mother who mothers.

[Frema]

I, too, will follow this conversation with interest. I have a five-month-old daughter, and I am the oldest of five children, and I'm constantly unsure of how to feel about my own relationship with my parents. I was pretty happy things until a few years ago, watching them parent my youngest sister, who is 15 now, and seeing how they have become so wrapped up in their own lives that they aren't properly addressing her issues. Plus, when I had Kara in December, after an unexpected (though not emergency) c-section, it took them six weeks to visit us, and that was only because it was Kara's baptism weekend and there was no way they would miss it. My family is only three hours away. It wouldn't have killed them to reprioritize things and come see us. It's not like I expected my mom to come help out like so many other moms I know have done for their kids.

My parents seem...I don't know...tired, and it shows. They still have only visited us once. We are the ones who have to pack up our gear and go to them. Then my mom complains about missing her grandbaby and wanting to see her more, so not only am I thinking, "THEN COME SEE US," but also, "What happened to seeing me, too?"

Maybe it's jealousy, maybe it's petty, but still, it's there. My mom acts as if her job is done with me, when I still need her in lots of ways. But now I'm trying not to.

[hush]

Took me a long time to fully realize that my mom has problems.

I seriously hated her as a teenager, but always chalked it up to "hormones," and the usual struggles for independence, etc. I felt like I was the crazy one, like the fights were always my fault (inevitably because I didn't want to do something her way). We'd always have these massive arguments around times of rituals & events where I had to get dressed up (like homecoming, prom, and later, my wedding day). (Makes me wonder what her own pre-motherhood lived experience was around those events...)

Our relationship dramatically improved when I went away to college and never lived at home again. So when I became a mom last year, I already had solid boundaries & lowered expectations about what she could reasonably be relied upon to do - which worked out pretty well.

Had my epiphany about her very recently, actually. Here I am in my 30's, and it was Christmas at my parents place. DH and I were there with our then-newborn baby. Thankfully, my mom's fantastic sister was there, too.

Turns out my auntie fibbed about a mild illness so that she could go home early (to spend Xmas eve alone) because she couldn't take my mom's obsessive behavior around cleaning & bossing her & everyone else around anymore. My hubby heard my aunt say "I just can't take that woman anymore. You know, they have meds for that stuff." Sad, but part of me felt validated.

I could benefit from some therapy & reading to understand my mom's behavior. To the outside world, she looks like a modern day June Cleaver: she has a successful adult child, a solid career, looks beautiful post menopause, and is still married to my poor emasculated dad. Yet, she doesn't have any close friends, never goes out socially, and I would understand if my dad ever decided he had to get out.

I'm scared I'm going to start acting like her someday, especially if I ever have a daughter. Lots to discuss this week...

[Jan]

Wow am I looking forward to this.

My mom is an amazing, supportive woman. I have never doubted her love for me.

She is also, though, a "fixer". Compulsively. If there isn't a problem, she creates one, for the sheer pleasure of solving it for me.

I am an independent sort. I very much like to do things for myself. See any conflict there?

What resonates with me is this passage:

"It is shocking, sometimes, how much weight a casual motherly comment will carry. (You’re using cloth diapers? All I can say is thank God for disposables.)"

This is how I have felt most of my adult life. As far back as when I told her I was getting married ("Oh, I hope you know what you're doing!") and as recently as last week ("You know if you ever decide you want to do something about your weight, I want to help in any way I can") I have felt the subtle criticism in her helpful suggestions. It is understated, constant, and very painful.

I hope a part of our discussion will include how to communicate some of these things effectively with our parents. I know, intellectually, that my mother's words come from a place of love; what I don't know is how to help her understand how difficult the delivery is for me.

[Joy]

A beautifully written post. I strive to keep that kind of attitude as my children grow. I did not have that kind of an example set by my own mother, and have learned from her what NOT to do as a parent to an adult child.
This is my sorest spot: the can of worms that is my relationship with my mother.
What do you do when she doesn't give you encouragement, but guilt; when she wants Hallmark Card visits with you, on her terms, and demands to know what you think is wrong with her when you don't meet those expectations; when you work really hard to get where you are and when you share your happiness with her all she does is lament how dissapointed she is with her own life and how lucky you are.
Sometimes I think she's waiting for my life to fall apart; for me to wake up one morning and realize I'm in an abusive relationship and I've lost all sense of myself and instead placed my sense of identity on my children, who will grow up and leave me, and she's been right all along and will feel vindicated and victorious when I come running home like a 10 year old in need of her.
What do you say when she passive- agressively drops hints that you may someday be willing to give her that Hallmard Card relationship? When she laments that none of my siblings ever come to visit, even though living in the same town? When you leave your kids with your Dad and Stepmom for a few days, but know you will never feel comfortable leaving them with her, and you know she will demand to know why.

Do you cut your losses and grieve for the relationship you know you'll never have?

Do you smile and nod and stick to the pleasantries and ignore the passive- agressive comments?

Do you try to be honest with her and tell her how you really feel, only to have her play victim and tell you she hopes your children do this to you someday and then you'll know how she feels.

Do you tell her to get a grip and grow up and get some self esteem and start taking some responsibility in her relationships?

She's had years of therapy, which basically taught her to stand up for herself and make her expectations of everyone else perfectly clear, and by golly they'd best comply or they're not showing proper respect for her feelings.

As the child of a nurturing, compassionate, creative, brilliant, artistic woman who did a beautiful job of mothering five children, including twins, how do you deal with her inability to relate to you as an adult, and give you her blessings to live your life on your own terms?

[m]

"Some common interests, developed over the years, help you spend your time together..."

I think the lack of this is one of the major problems with my relationship with my father, less so with my mother. I know we're mostly talking about the mother relationship here, so I won't go into too much detail about my father, but growing up, my father had two interests: tv and fishing. Neither of these are part of my life anymore and I realize now that participating in them as a youth was not a shared interest, but his forced on to me. So now, we have very little in common and not much to talk about even.

With my mother, we now have mothering in common and since having my second child, our relationship has become so much stronger. She has come to help me twice in the last three months and we've been able to bond and spend time together in ways that we hadn't since I was a teenager. (I'm now 33.)

This is one thing that I hope to really work on in our family, work on family interests that aren't just mine or my husband's, but also my boys'.

I also agree with Hedra about the bricks being a foundation and not a wall. My heart couldn't take watching my sons build brick walls between me and them.

[Cathy]

Very interesting posts and discussions...

@Maria - My MIL died last year and had early-onset Alzheimer's. Probably since my SIL (DH's baby sister) was in her early 20's she had symptoms, SIL turns 28 this summer. SIL had her first baby at 22. I can imagine that she's not far from your shoes at all. SIL (finally) married a nice man with a nice family, so she has a great MIL, but not without in-law politics. SIL is the one who keeps track of all of her big brothers the best.

@P - I think we all tend to reprocess major historical events in our lives with our new perspectives whenever we go through developmental stages, and I think becoming a mother (or getting married). I think this is true for kids as they are growing up too.

Also, my major parenting goal is to have my kids (and step-son) grow up to be "big and strong" - which sounds pretty similar to the others mentioned. Practical stuff like making sure they are able to do the math to do comparison shopping, read (and understand) the fine print, find a job they love to do and support their own family one day, etc.

One of the Boy Scout leaders in our troop shared with some of the new parents that the hardest thing is to let the boys fail. This was after one boy only packed shorts on a very cold campout (well, very cold for Florida, so no real risk of frostbite, just discomfort) And it sure is, but after a while, you stop checking to make sure that your boy has packed everything he needs for the campout and know that he'll either learn to be better prepared or to bum whatever he needs off the other scouts or to be able to do without.

[blesk]

All of this post hits me strongly as we have just spent a tense weekend with the in laws and look ahead to a week with my mother. My husband was very upset about the interactions over the weekend, because they could potentially be reflected in the future when our little girl becomes a woman of and on her own. It's upsetting to think how frustrated the future adults will be at us.

The line about the faults is so true, especially because I feel that my mother is always subtly criticizing and always on such basic things. The words coming from someone else are harmless, but coming from her, they are full of baggage. Every time we visit, I go through a period of adjustment where I have to stop taking it personally. I am not always prepared for her method of communication. And she's maybe not prepared for mine.

I am looking forward to the rest of the posts.

[Jen (yup, another one)]

Everything I could read resonated with me. I had to stop because otherwise I'd be a crying mess at work. Can I have HER for my mom? Please?

Will read more later when I can handle it.

[Julie]

Such great comments so far. My relationship with my mom (I think) is pretty typical. It has changed a lot since having Alex, and the lines get really blury because she takes care of him 4 days a week while my husband and I work. So she has a LOT of ideas, thoughts, observations that are important simply because she spends so much time with him. It gets blurry because sometimes she has opinions too. And while she tries really hard to be sensitive, non-judgemental, and keeping her opinions to herself..... they do slip out. Little comments like "You should really work hard this summer to get a set routine down for him" or "I don't know why he resists his bath so much....when you kids were little you both loved the bath!" Despite me telling her that it is, in fact VERY common for 2 year olds to suddenly (and for no reason) hate their bath. And, um......we actually DO have a pretty set routine for him, thankyouverymuch. Comments like that rub me the wrong way, but for the most part I just let them go because she IS invested in Alex's life, she is a HUGE part of it......and there is that sometimes uncomfortable aspect of the fact that she is providing FREE CHILDCARE. Granted, she volunteered to do the job but we should not be expected to "pay" in emotional currency instead...... it's tricky. We are extremely grateful to both of my parents for the amazing learning environment (think private Montessori school) they have provided for him........the data points during the day, the tips and tricks that were tried during the day that worked to overcome obstacles.....but please refrain from making comments about what is percieved to be happening at our house.

I had an amazing relationship with my maternal grandparents - my parents got divorced when I was 5 and my grandparents really stepped in to help raise us.....and I see my mom and stepdad following in their footsteps and for that I am SO grateful. For the most part, my mom is respectful. I have no problem telling her when she has crossed the line if she really has.....but so far she really hasn't. She respects how we want to do things and offers suggestions when appropriate (most of the time). And really, if anyone else were to say the same thing to me (a friend for example) I wouldn't be bothered by it at all. It's the nature of the mother/daughter relationship to bristle when opinions or advice are given. So knowing that, I let it slide. It's not the comment, it's not even the tone. It's the past history that makes my mouth sour sometimes, and there is no changing that dynamic. A part of me reverts to being 15 again when she says anything "advicey" or "opiniony" and I want to roll my eyes, tell her she doesn't know what she's talking about, huff a couple times and storm out of the room. It's really a primal urge. But then I remember that I'm 37 and not 15, and she does in fact, know what she's talking about. It's the sucky thing about growing up, I guess, to be two people at once inside one relationship.

She worries a lot about me though - in a marriage that is sometimes very rocky, married to a guy (she never says this aloud but I know it to be true) she would not have picked for me, and truth be told I probably would not pick for myself again. But she is quietly supportive. She understands that this is my life, my marriage, and if I want to stick it out and make more babies she is fine with that. And if I were to call her and say "we need to find a lawyer" she would jump to action without judgement, without comment and be there for me too. That is the kind of mother I strive to be, because of her example and the example set by her parents.....I know without a doubt she will do whatever I need her to do, and do so in a supportive, non-judgemental way. And if I have to live with opinions every now and then about Alex.....small price to pay. I really don't mind.

I think I am very lucky.

[hedra]

@Joy (and some of the others with parents who haven't figured out the parenting adult child stuff) - you *can* talk about the roles.

My mom is great at the grandma thing, but she DID NOT start out that way. She adapted her mothering reasonably well for adult kids without the grandkids, but hello, insert grandchild, and she landed splat back in mothering infants. And that included mothering me like an infant or small child. WHOA, NELLY! I smacked her right back over her side of the line, hard.

That's when she realized that she had no idea how to parent another parent. Adult, she kinda got, it had been her goal. But parenting a parent... that was further different. And she didn't know how to do it, she was just applying her mothering to grandmothering, like they were the same thing! Whoops.

We did talk it out. She made it clear that she was as new to grandmothering as I was to mothering. By doing so, she gave me permission to help teach HER how to grandparent, and how to parent me as a parent. It's part of my philosophy of parenting that your child will teach you to be the parent they need, if you listen. And even as an adult, if they're able to listen, you can still teach them to be the parent you need. Willing to listen, I don't know how to make happen - but worth a try. (and seriously worth reading up on and dealing with codependency issues - try Melody Beattie's books - if there's a history of boundary issues.)

For us, that smack-down was the beginning also of the transition (still in early stages 10 years later) to me parenting her as she ages. So we talked, and I was able to be more gentle about the boundaries, and she was wary and cautious when she got to the edge of them (because really, I'd pretty much taken her head clean off in one go, that first time... something of a twice-shy issue, there).

Joy, if she was really good at parenting you as kids, likely she can develop being good at the grandparent/parenting-parent thing, too. But first she has to realize that it is a different thing, being a grandparent. It takes on different roles, finds different strengths. I found that offering her a specific role as grandparent worked best for both of us - she knew where she was free to play all-out, and I knew where we'd agreed to ask her to move if she was wandering into other territory. And just her understanding that she was new at this role and that it was a different role from mother was huge. It allowed us to try things out, and then try again, knowing that it was the same process as trying and messing up with our babies, and trying again, feeling our way through the process.

I've also learned (in part through the process of snapping her head off and defining my boundaries) that I'm comfortable ignoring almost all her comments, and don't take them quite as much to heart as I might have otherwise. If one makes its way past my boundaries, I will not hesitate to send it right back where it came from (my mom had a tendency to ask 'would now be a good time to wean?' whenever I wasn't 100% thrilled to be nursing... she *was* usually 90% asking a real question, 10% expressing her opinion about what she'd have done (overlaying the 100% concern for my wellbeing), but boy I'd hand her back that 10% fast, and with 90% explanation that this wasn't something she got to weigh in on. Yes, the trespass would be ouchy, but I'm comfortable returning it and leaving her to deal with the prickly bits. She does, rather well. Not happily, but well. And so far, she hasn't stepped over the line more than 2 times on any topic, that I can recall. If she has, they don't bother me anymore, at least.

My ILs, fortunately, have known forever that their opinion counted for a lot with their son, and they therefore have kept their opinions to themselves as much as humanly possible. They even realized they were expressing too much fondness for me, and pulled back on the expressions of affection so as to not unduly influence his choices about where the relationship was going (scared the peep out of me that I'd done something really wrong when they went from enthusiastic hugs to handshakes... fortunately, we ended up announcing our engagement the next day, so that didn't last long - and fortunately, they explained what had happened to the hugs.) But anyway, I'd say my biggest 'complaint' with my ILs is that they sometimes don't share enough, rather than that they express too much opinion. (It wasn't until I was two years into extended nursing our second child - after doing so for years with the first as well - that I found out that my own DH had been nursed well past a year, too. Sometimes a little 'what I did' sharing is a good thing, too. Hard to know where the boundaries really are, I know!)

Anyway, maybe that will help?

[m's mommy]

This topic is of great interest to me, as my relationship with my own mother has been deteriorating since the birth of my daughter 16 months ago.

My bio dad (my mom's high school sweetheart) died when I was 10 months old. He was 30, so they had already been together for about 13 years (and married for 5). Even though she remarried when I was 2, she's never gotten over the loss of him. When she thought my husband and I were never going to have kids (because I was in my mid-30s, married 7 years, and there was no grandchild on the way), she cried and cried, telling me how selfish I was not to let him live on in a future generation.

Turns out that at the time of that conversation, I was actually pregnant, although I didn't know it yet. I thought my mom would be so excited about the baby and want to help in any way she could, even though she lived 8 hours away. I couldn't have been more wrong.

She came the morning after my daughter was born and stayed for a week. And it turned what should have been a happy (if difficult and exhausting) time into one of the worst weeks of my life. She was no help at all. She let ME cook her breakfast. She napped, surfed the web and watched TV all day. Not once did she say, "You should go get some rest and let me watch the baby." or give us support in any way. I was a sobbing wreck by the time she left (hormonal, no doubt, but my feelings were also very hurt).

Step and repeat on each of her subsequent visits. It makes me so sad, because my husband and I have no family where we live. I'd love it if we felt like we could count on her to help us and give us a much-needed break when she came for a visit--let us go to a movie, for example. It just doesn't happen that way. And as my daughter gets older, I'm afraid she's going to feel that her grandmother doesn't really care about her, since my mother shows no interest in playing with her, reading to her, etc.

She's wanting to come visit again soon, and I've started just dreading visits from her, mostly because of how it leaves me feeling--drained and very alone. On her last visit, I finally told her that I am amazed at how much more alone I feel when she's here than when she's away. I've tried expressing my feelings to her (that I would love to feel like I could count on her more when she visits, that I feel like she is missing out on getting to know this beautiful child by not interacting with her when she's here, etc.), but it's done nothing.

How do I let this go and just take her visits for what they are? Or do I just stop letting her come because it's so hurtful for me?

[caramama]

This post was wonderful. I will be back to read all the comments when I'm less frantically busy. But I read some and I wanted to add this:

After my baby was born, maybe a few weeks after, I had this big realization. THIS was how my mother felt about me. THIS was how much she loved me. Wow.

I always knew that she loved me deeply and unconditionally, and my father felt that way too. But I could never have understood the depths and breadth of that love until I felt if for my own child.

Also, I'm close with my parents and have gotten along well. I attribute this in large part due to the "one hand lightly on the small of her back and send brownies" that Num-Num describes and I could never before articulate. While not perfect, both of my parents did that part well with me.

[ace]

Hush @ 11:06- Your comment definitely resonated with me and this portion of your post could be about my own mother (minus the solid career):

To the outside world, she looks like a modern day June Cleaver: she has a successful adult child, a solid career, looks beautiful post menopause, and is still married to my poor emasculated dad. Yet, she doesn't have any close friends, never goes out socially, and I would understand if my dad ever decided he had to get out.

Like you, Hush, one of my biggest fears is that I'm going to start acting like my mother someday. I notice that you didn't mention having any siblings. Are you an only child?

For those of us who are only children, I know that this week will bring a much-needed sense of community. While I am blessed to have wonderful, supportive friends, I know that they will never fully understand the complexities surrounding my relationship with my mother. I look forward to reading the rest of the week's posts and comments.

[bobbi]

@m's mommy...I just wanted to say that I had much the same experience as you with my own mom. As a young Grandma, I have found my mom to be "lacking" in the ganny department, offten not helpful at all. But I will tell you this - she got much better as my kids got older. Turns out, she's just not a "baby" person, but became much more involved starting in the toddler / preschool ages. I hope that this gives you a bit of hope - I remember feeling very depressed and disillusioned when my oldes was an infant. To a degree, it still saddens me...I still long for that stereotypical grandmother. The one (like hedra describes) who will provide enchantment for my kids. I haven't got that anymore (my MIL passed away 2 years ago) and I miss it...

I'll be glued here all week. I can't wait to read everyone's insight on all of this.

[meggiemoo]

Like some of the other posters, I lost my mom at an early age (I was 18). She was always a wounded person, but loved being a mom. I could tell she loved us to the depths of her being. But she was also manic-depressive.

Becoming a mom has been a curious experience for me...I don't have my mom to call when I have issues with my son. Luckily I have older sisters who are wonderful in that way. But no one, not my step-mother, not my mother-in-law, can fill that "mother" role for me.

What scares me is that my son will grow up, hopefully find someone to love, and suddenly, I'll be someone's mother-in-law. Will I be ignored, mistrusted, forgotten by his future wife? Will I be allowed at the birth of my grandchildren? I think about my relationship with my mother-in-law (granted, she's an alcoholic), and shudder.

[hedra]

@m's mommy, and likely others, too...

My mom had the same experience, to a degree - she could not get from them what she needed, period, ever. (Granted, they were total catastrophes, not just miserable.) She said the healing of that has been in becoming for us what she did not have for herself (and didn't get from her grandparents much, either). That's how she lets it go. Some relationships cannot be fixed, and even patching them up over the weak spots is sometimes a mistake. She has the same with her only sibling - they've talked it out, they're both intelligent humans, but the issues between them cannot be resolved by unilateral action. It takes both, and one party isn't playing. She'll be mourning that for... well, forever, probably, in some way.

That said, she was willing to make it work, work around it, hold up the weak spots, and set up the opportunities for decades after decades, so that we would have the opportunity to understand the concept of 'aunt' in a positive way.

And for a sad but maybe hopeful in some way story - a guy I worked with when my first was born told me that his parents were totally uninterested in the grandparent thing. They did obligatory stuff, and when they visited, they really didn't want to spend time with the grandkids, they wanted to be entertained like guests. He had mourned that loss (his kids were 10 and 8), and while it still hurt, he was doing what he could with what they had... and then his father was diagnosed with a terminal illness. Total turnabout. His dad and mom realized the true shortness of time, and ... well, they bought a huge house in Hawaii, and asked their son and his family to uproot himself for six months to a year to come live with them, so they could be the grandparents they should have been all along, in one big dose, before it was too late. I didn't hear how it went (we'd never been close friends, just 'both parents') - but I know how he looked when he told me he was leaving. Sometimes even when you've given up hope, there's hope.

[Jac]

This is such a sensitive issue for me. I find myself in a situation like Frema's. My mother and I get along wonderfully, as long as I don't expect much from her. We usually talk once a week and she doesn't impose her opinions on me at all.

My parents live a 16 hour plane ride away. They came to visit for a month when my LO was due, but made it clear that it was their holiday and they weren't there to help out. Fine. They visited me at the hospital after the LO was born, and then left for two weeks to visit other family members in the local region. I know I am an adult and I can stand on my own two feet. But I was hurt. Other friends' parents came and stayed for weeks to help out, or cooked meals. My husband left for a work trip for a week, one week after the baby was born (couldn't be helped - planned before pregnancy known). And I was by myself. And my parents didn't want to visit because they wanted to "enjoy their holiday".

Ha - i thought I was over this, but am crying as I type. Thing is, this is typical of our relationship. And usually I just accept it - I'm a pretty independent person and manage fine on my own. I guess I just want them to WANT to be more involved.

[anonfortoday]

@Joy--you've described my dad perfectly: "Do you tell her to get a grip and grow up and get some self esteem and start taking some responsibility in her relationships?

"She's had years of therapy, which basically taught her to stand up for herself and make her expectations of everyone else perfectly clear, and by golly they'd best comply or they're not showing proper respect for her feelings."

And you also asked whether you should tell her why you let your kids stay with the other set of parents--I haven't, and I probably won't let my dad know that it's completely unlikely that they'll ever be alone with him, although I'm happy to share them with him if I'm there. Even with as much therapy as he's done, I don't think he'd get it. Sometimes, I just smile and say "that would be nice," and then not make plans. Because he knows deep down that it's not going to happen, I don't want to hurt his feelings by saying it.

And my mom . . . I'm just beginning to understand her, I think. I always wanted a mom like Hedra described, and I think by not accepting what I did have I was chronically disappointed. Things are looking up though as she completely trusts me to raise my daughters well. And sometimes she even gives me kudos.

I'm also beginning to realize that she raised my three sisters and I differently--she knew our strengths and weaknesses and went with them. I do admit that sometimes that sucked. She knew I was fully capable to care for myself and left me to it, even when I needed (wanted?) to be babied, held, cared for. And asking for it wasn't acceptable. Watching her baby my other sisters (older and younger) was hard--especially when I thought they manipulated her. And pointing that out wasn't acceptable either.

In college we had an assignment where we had to write a list of all the advice our mothers had ever given us. I was in tears when I had to read the list I wrote then. She never wanted us to be "different" than anyone else--she wanted us to "fit in." I think it was because she didn't want to see us struggle, but that advice tore me to my core. Especially since, try as I could, I did not fit in.

But these days, I think she appreciates me. Her "unique individual." And she loves my kids. And lets me love them in my own way.

Thank heavens.

[Amy]

I'm really looking forward to this series. I have a very functional, if co-dependent relationship with my mom, but a very dysfunctional relationship with my dad. They're divorced. Last fall my dad kind of lost his mind and left my step-mother, took a temporary job in another state, then came back in late December with no job and nowhere to live. He's been living with me since late January.

Our roles are totally reversed. Even though he's able bodied (he has health problems, but he can care for himself and he can work), we have been supporting him for 4 months. He just recently found and started a job here. I feel like the parent in our relationship. Looking back, I always kind of have been.

Anyway, it's a mess, so I hope that by reading your posts on the topic I can gain some insight and clarity about the whole thing. Therapy and 100mg a day of zoloft helps, too. :)

[Katie B.]

"It is shocking, sometimes, how much weight a casual motherly comment will carry. (You’re using cloth diapers? All I can say is thank God for disposables.)"

This really resonated with me, as with several others here. I love my mother dearly, and we have a decent relationship, even a friendship, but she is a pretty difficult person, and I have no idea how she'll do as a grandmother. I know objectively why she is the way she is, and a lot of the forces that shaped her shaped me, too. I just have little patience for the amount she's done to fix herself, which is very little to date. As a teenager, she was a great mom, supportive when we needed it (and boy did we need it!), but also letting us make most of our own mistakes. Definitely a few too many of those "casual comments", although I doubt many were really all that casual. I know many were not at all.

But now... I know she'll be in line with supporting my chosen parenting style in general; after all, it's what she did, even to the (intended) extended breastfeeding. But she made a remark a few months ago that's really been affecting me ever since. I told her that I plan to cosleep, expecting that she'd be cool with it, and she wasn't, not at all. Her reaction doesn't change my plans at all, but it has changed how I talk about them. I had been cautious about mentioning them to my ILs, because I'm not sure how they'll react (although I now think that *they'll* be ok, or at least non-judgmental to my face, which they're very good at), but now I'm downright cagey about the issue to that whole side of the family. Fortunately, my ILs are experienced grandparents, and one of my SILs broke a lot of ground there in regards to AP, for the which I thank her greatly (even if I think she's doing it all wrong ;P).

I just don't know about my mom. I'm anxious about it, and hoping that if I expect the worst, she'll surprise me with the best. She does that. I do think we're going to have to have some extended discussions about boundaries.

[Joy]

@Hedra- You mean I can set boundries?? What a beautiful word- boundries. So, it's okay to say that there are some things she just simply 'doesn't get to weigh in on'? I know I sound like a total dope, but that just kind of konked me on the head and made total sense. (I think my DH has been trying to konk me on the head with that one all this time, to no avail.)

While it's totally obvious in all my other relationships, for some reason with my mother the whole concept of boundries doesn't exist. As my mother, of course she has the right to say whatever she thinks, as long as she uses "I" messages. As in, "I feel that you are spending more time at your Dad's house than at mine, and because he makes more money and buys the kids expensive toys, and I can't compete with that on a Teacher's salary, they love him more than me. So, if you don't divide your time equally, it's not fair." (Yes, actual conversation. Many of them, actually.) or, "I feel that you're not allowing me to have the relationship I would like to have with my grandchildren because you never spend the night at my house, and I'll never get to see them pad around in their pj's in the morning or stay up late playing board games." (We always stay with my dad, forever a point of contention, even though we've explained to her that's just the way it is.)

And so, what do I do? Make more effort to split the time equally; drop in early in the AM before dressing the kids and staying late to play board games.

But. Still. I'ts. Not. Enough. I'm depriving her of her ideal relationship with her grandchildren.

Boundries!! 'Well, Mom, maybe this would be a good time to talk about boundries. This is just something you don't get to weigh in on.' Simple. Straightforward. Have your opinion all you want, but keep it to yourself.

Yes, definitely going to check out those books. Maybe I'll even take one along to her house next time I visit; how's that for passive- agressive?

Thanks Hedra!! And thanks Moxie for this topic, I'll definitely be here all week.

I'm really interested in knowing what are my responsibilities as an adult child to my parents. (Again, my mom's example of acting like an impetuous child with my Grandmother has not been the ideal to follow.) :)

[hush]

@Ace - hello there! Yes, I'm an only child, too.

I totally hear you about how hard it is for friends to understand the unique complexities of the relationship. And, to be honest, I don't fully get it either; my mom is such an enigma to me. I'm really looking forward to your insights.

[Maria Wood]

@ Joy: Is it out of the question for your mom to spend the night at your house to get the late-night-early-morning experiences she's craving? Simplistic, I know, and from what I'm reading of the rest of your relationship, I'd guess that's really not the point: she might just come up with a substitute complaint if you were to magically solve the details of the current one.

But maybe using some principles of mediation and non-violent communication (even the Wikipedia entry for this is pretty illuminating) you could start to work out some of these conflicts without compromising your boundaries.

Your mother sounds somewhat similar to my father, who used the language of 12-step programs and therapy throughout my childhood to make me wrong, make things about him, and generally pervert the relationship away from healthy interaction and toward codependence and dysfunction – in the guise of mental health and enhanced awareness. That wasn't at all confusing.

My choice was to basically cut my father out of my life for a number of years, and now that I've reestablished contact with him, to maintain a level of extreme detachment and emotionaly distance. It is working for us about as well as I think it can given his impaired mental health (and let's face it, my own, at least in certain areas).

I go through regular periods of thinking I am not giving him enough credit and that if I open a door he'll respond with a modicum of empathy, self-awareness, etc., and I get smacked upside the head again with the reality of his lacks as a parent, grandparent, and human being.

However, I don't necessarily think this was the right thing for me to do… it was the only think I could do at the time, and I am still doing the best I can with it. But had I been able, I think it would have been better to brave the pain and disappointment, set healthy boundaries, kept the lines of communication open.

Both as a child and as a parent I think the idea of having parents be frail and faulty humans instead of perfect towers of strength and wisdom is a terrible mistake!

[Maybe I should be Anon today...]

One of the constant sources of friction in my marriage is the different parenting styles between my parents and my husband's parents.

My parents, my mother especially, are excellent at having adult children. She gets that being a grandmother is NOT the same as being a mother. She knows that she doesn't get to make parenting decisions for my child. If I ask for her opinion or help on something she'll give it, but only after asking what my husband and I have thought/said about it. If we have a difference in opinion, she will bring it up to me, usually delicately, and always directly, rather than in a round-about manner. She puts my relationship with my husband above my relationship with her. She gently runs interference between my siblings and I and our father (who has yet to realize that we're all older than 6).

My in-laws.... Well, my FIL is a wonderful man who has had all opinions browbeaten out of him. My MIL means well (I think), but she can often be snide, puts emphasis on many things in her life that I simply don't care about, and has a very hard time letting go of the fact that she doesn't get to parent my child. She is an excellent grandmother - plays with the kids, changes diapers, is always available to hold a baby (even a screaming one), and truly and unconditionally loves each and every one of her grandchildren. I think a lot of the problems stem from the fact that my son is the 8th grandchild on that side, and the stage was set for grandmotherly interference long before he was born. It's hard to undo the training that she's received from my SIL and BIL in allowing her too much freedom in decision making.

With all that being said, however, she's nowhere near as bad as I anticipated she would be, and she's nothing like some of my siblings in-laws, so I guess I should count my blessings.

[m]

Oh, and just like everything else, I think modelling goes a *long* way here. Both of my parents are immigrants and came here as adults. My Dad's parents visited once when I was 9 (they were living in a Communist country, so one visit was a small miracle) and my Mom's parents came every few years for about two weeks at a time until I was 11. My Pop died when I was 13. So while I had a limited relationship with my grandparents, my own parents never really had to develop a relationship with their own parents as grandparents to the same degree as what they are now having to experience as grandparents themselves.

I think this might be partly why my relationship with my father when down the toilet when I became a teen. He left home at 15. He had not experienced how parents related to a child as a teen or adult, so he had a hard time doing it himself.

I'm curious to know about the rest of you, how your parents related to your grandparents while you were growing up and if there is a correlation with your relationship to your parents now.

[hedra]

@Joy. You just experienced one of my mom's great rules: It takes three different (kinds of) people to tell you something before you can hear it. And none of them can be your mother ... or your spouse. So, I guess I was person three, huh? :)

A note on the setting of boundaries.

1) Expect her to wonder where the payoff will be for her (if I have a 1% chance of getting what I want by being annoying and crossing lines, and a 0% chance of doing it by respecting boundaries, why respect boundaries?). For my mom, the payoff was in an easier relationship all around, which meant that she got a lot more of what she needed. What she needed was for me to ask her for help, guidance, and wisdom. And every time she OFFERED those things, I bristled. Until she agreed that she would stop offering. And that gave me room to ask. I even intentionally called her in the middle of the night, to 'check my thinking' on something (a fever? not sure what), because I knew it would make her feel useful, and while I didn't think anything bad would happen if I didn't call her, I did think I might feel a little better having talked to someone. And I was right.

2) Problem-solve the problem under the problem. She has a picture in her mind of what grandparenting was going to be. Just like we have a picture of what parenting was going to be. Neither are accurate. She's still expecting hers to be. The expectations are a problem, not the experience. See if you can address that in the boundaries. Second part of the problem is something to do with how she pictured her favorite moments with her own kids, and trying to set that up as a repeat - which deprives her of the chance to find favorite moments with the grandchild(ren). What my mom does with my kids is not what she did with me - they are different people, raised by different people, in a different time and place. Cannot replicate! Must find a new point of joy (so to speak). Addressing the urge to repeat the joy, or set up the joy in a certain way may help her let go of her death-grip on that particular dream. It is a good dream, it's just not the reality.

3) Try and try again. It likely will take some time, repeats, and feeling it through - but I suspect you can find it. (Oh, and I spent part of the smack-down conversation with my mom asking her to remember - really REMEMBER and not just re-imagine - what she felt like as a new mom, and how she'd feel if she was told she MUST do X to make another person happy. In your case, the 'command performance version of grandparent/grandchild relationship' might have some issues to explore. Did you really want to live life how your elders wanted you to? Did that make you happy? Etc. A frank discussion of what she's robbing herself of by trying to get an ideal, instead of enjoying the real... might be useful there.)

4) One of the things that really helped my mom focus was that I deserved the chance to make my own mistakes, and that I'd learn more that way than I would by being prevented from making any. (This also implies to them that they're really just hoping to help you be the best parent possible, which may or may not be their real motivation, but once you articulate it, it's hard for them to say 'no, I really am just being selfish here' and then they tend to line up a bit more with the 'helping you be the best parent by letting you learn to do it your way' side... and yes, I use people-Do on my mom.)

5) Ouch on the 'they love him better because he buys them stuff' - yeah, my mom once discussed something similar with me - though she did at least ask if I saw any issues with the disparate Christmas celebrations - one gift extravaganza, one puppy-pile of grandkids (polyanna), and hers, which was limited individual gifts, more 'things to read or do when you're here' items. She didn't *think* that the kids would equate the loads of presents as loved more/better, but she still *feared* it might happen. Not to worry, enchantment is a big deal to them, and gifts... they're a big deal, too, but a different one. They've all got an honored place in the grandparental pantheon, including my dad, and even the step-mom my kids have yet to meet, but who sends a gift each year anyway. Fair and equal are not the same, as anyone who read A Wrinkle in Time knows. It is fair to find the time that is most appropriate for your relationship. It doesn't have to be equal, or even what you'd choose if given a menu of options.

Good luck!

[DC Ranger]

I'm happy to see this addressed here, because I was one of those readers who contacted Moxie about difficulties with my mom when my son was about a year old. A year later, I'm handling it better, but only because I'm basically letting all my mom's aggravating words & actions wash right over me - though I've tried, endlessly, to talk with her about making things better, I've realized she won't change. The best I could do was change my own response to her behaviors.

Growing up, my parents had huge issues in their marriage, causing my mom to be severely depressed most of the time. My parents fought violently and, from the time I was very young, my mother dumped all her problems on me. I never talked to her about MY problems because she either didn't take them seriously because she was wrapped up in her own worries, or she'd totally overreact and nag me and stress about it for months afterwards. There was no middle ground, so it was better to just stay silent. One time, the fact that I was dealing with a serious health problem caused her to go into a deep depression - so instead of being able to focus my energy on my own recovery, I wound up having to support her. Right now I'm going through a major marriage crisis (which may actually lead to the end of my 18-year relationship) but I haven't said a word about it to her.

I honestly just can't even fathom having a family that I can turn to in times of need. It hurts not to be able to turn to my own mom during what have been the saddest months of my life. However, I am lucky to have a couple of semi-surrogate moms like Num-Num mentioned. I'm so grateful that they've shown me an alternative to the type of parenting that I grew up with, otherwise I might not have believed there WAS any other kind. I only hope I can be self-aware enough to break the pattern and be a better mom to my own son.

Eagerly looking forward to Moxie's mom's post tomorrow...

[hedra]

@m, I think at least awareness of the modeling is important, even if that means 'understanding what cannot be modeled because it doesn't exist'. My mom modeled an attempt to have and hold a grandparent/grandchild relationship between us and her parents... strict boundaries, but putting value on the relationship somewhere. Unfortunately, that didn't entirely teach what she wanted, and allowed at least me to be terrorized by my grandfather.

BUT, modeling that the grandparent role is important, and should be valued - that's important. Even if it is done by visibly grieving the lack of the relationship that should have been.

Oh, and my step-dad was also out on his own at 15, and he made life utter misery for each child as they reached 14-and-change, to the point that, yep, they left as fast as they could, two of them at 15, IIRC. He could not see, even in therapy, that he was trying to force them out (though everyone else in the house could see it, that didn't stop it from being impossible to live with). He did better with his last two kids (different mom), but that was after he discovered the concept of attachment (he and his wife coslept, which was rather unusual to admit to at the time). But yeah, the experience and modeling counts. My mom at least modeled the value of relationships that cross generational boundaries.

Interestingly, we were discussing just that recently. Someone pointed out to my mom (as she was wrangling grandkids at church) that hers is the only multigenerational family there. Period. And it's not a small church. Grandparents don't live nearby, and when they do, they don't RELATE the way we're relating. They're adjunct, not actual parts of the lives of the 'core family'. It's maybe sad, and maybe just a feature of the changes in our expectations and culture, our mobility and our intentionality - we choose our freedoms, and those choices have side effects sometimes, even if the freedom is from codependant parents wanting too much control and having too much willingness to hurt.

I have hope for my own kids, though - the model is good (and strangely enough, having many grandparents gives a nice range of sample). Good enough that recently G, the eldest (10), surprised me with it. We were talking about investing for retirement (yes, we're talking about this with him now), and he asked how much money I expected to have at retirement. When I told him that we were fully funded (though not for education, just for our retirement part), he got really excited. His eyes lit up, and he reiterated, 'you'll have a LOT of money?' ... um, I guess you could call it that, but don't be counting on inheritance, boyo, that money is our living expenses and ... but no, that's not where he was going. He was excited because if we had 'enough', we'd be able to do interesting things with his kids. At 10, he's already thinking of what I'll be like as a grandmother, what his dad will be like as a grandfather, and hoping already for it to be a certain way, at least in style if not in details. And I hope I'll be able to provide that, without crossing any lines with him or his wife (assuming he remains as straight as he seems to be now, ;) ).