Bodies, selves

(Next week it'll be all reader questions, and none of this week's self-indulgent navel gazing from me.)

I knew the body post would hit a nerve. I went to a women's college (the same one Enu went to, which is how we know each other even though we've never met IRL) and distinctly remember the first time I realized that everyone else I know there had the same feelings of inadequacy about her body that I did. And that the women who I thought had the most amazing bodies ever still felt like there were things wrong with them.

That's why I never post about what my actual weight/size is. Because it doesn't matter. I think a size 4 who used to be a 2 feels the same self-loathing that a size 28 who used to be a 20 does. Part of the conditioning is instilling the dysmorphia so that no matter what we look like we still think it isn't enough. Which makes the problem, at least for me, a two-parter: Stop hating my body is the first (and more important) part. The second part is make my body the best I can.

I had this big realization earlier today that I'm going to have a happy life. I've certainly put enough time and work into living a miserable mediocre life that if I can apply even a fraction of that to making good decisions and accepting love and grace, everything's going to work out. (I'm sure I'll still keep a healthy amount of my Lucy-in-the-chocolate-factory-ness, though. It seems to just be part of me.) So it behooves me to shake off this body loathing. Because what good is it to be exactly where you're supposed to be, doing what you're supposed to be doing, if you can't really let go because you hate your body?

I don't want anyone to misunderstand yesterday's post and think that I'm all "La la la--I loooove my stretchmarks!" But I think now I see my body truly as a work in progress. So I can look at it now and say "I look better now than I did in December, and I feel better, too." And that makes me think that today's feelings about my thighs are just another point on the line. That's something I had no sense of when I was 20. I thought what I had was what I had, and it was only going to get worse.

It's late and I'm stuffed full of delicious, delicious Thai food, so I may not do this next part justice, but here goes: Anonymous, I'm so sorry. And my initial reaction was that Bridget was being harsh and callous. But it's my suspicion that Bridget doesn't have the same experience with weight being a function of emotional issues that Anonymous and anonforthis and I do. If it's just gaining extra weight, then dieting and exercise are going to take it off, and Bridget's right--Just do it. And Enu's right, too, that people fall in love with the person, so often extra weight/baldness/whatever doesn't matter.

But sometimes it's way more complex. I realized that I gained weight after having my second son to hide and protect myself. (Other hiding mechanism: Clutter--I could hide in plain sight. That was a humdinger when I figured it out.) Which is why I felt so much better doing T-Tapp for a year, but never dropped any weight or changed my body at all. I needed to have that weight on to stay emotionally safe. The problem now is that just knowing why I put on that weight doesn't make it drop off--I'm still having to do the work. Sigh.

If Anonymous is in the middle of the horrible feelings, then it's not just as simple as losing the weight. Especially if a teeny part of her is so angry at her husband for his truly horrendous behavior (I have NO sympathy for turning her down to surf porn) that she's keeping the weight on to protect herself from him wanting her once she's thin again.

Any thoughts?

Comments

[Melba]

I agree with you Moxie on anonymous' situation. And I also agree with what Sherry said in that it's probably her husband's problem with himself. Especially seeing as anonymous said that he himself is 40 lbs heavier than when they got married. Maybe he's got his own self-loathing issues that make him feel safer surfing porn (porn can't judge him) than being intimate with his wife. And she said there are other problems with the marriage as well... so maybe his lack of attraction is more of a symptom of the other issues, including his own self image problem.

I too had a killer body as a teenager but didn't even know it back then. What a shame!

Did anyone watch America's Next Top Model? The season finale was on Wednesday and the full figured girl won. Its hilarious that they called her "plus size" and "full figured" when she was a gorgeous size 10. But she beat out all the double 0's and won the whole thing, which I thought was fantastic.

[Mindee]

I just want to thank you, Moxie, for posting on this topic right now when I really really need to hear it, and also thank the commenters (commentors?) for all of their insight, as well. I've been thinking a lot lately about my body and how I feel about it and how I've felt about it in the past and how I know something is just very very wrong with the way I think about it...and it is so reassuring to know that there are other people who feel the same way (and are much better at finding the words to express it.) There could not have been, for my own personal need, a more perfect day for the first post. Thank you all for helping me better frame my struggle.

[Liza]

I knew you were another one! There's just something about women who went to women's colleges. :)

Thanks for the very thoughtful discussion about our bodies and self-images and stress and emotion etc. There is so much shame around our bodies, no matter what they look like, that even having the discussion is almost a revolutionary act.

[attiton]

No need to feel bad about the introspection, Moxie. Being a mother consists of a whole lot more than just sleep issues and nursing issues (horrible though those may be).

We are all women in this sometims crappy world, too often trying to be everything to everyone. I saw my mother go through this. I am trying to do better...but I think that all I have done is add one more goal to the pile: "Do better than my mother."

[Amy]

Wouldn't it be lovely if no woman ever felt less than joy at being herself?

Nice job arbitrating Moxie.

[marypoppins]

Porn has its place. I certainly don't think it's 'truly horrendous' to resort to it when the need arises. I know when I wasn't in the mood during pregnancy and after the babies were born, my dh resorted to it.I even caught him once or twice. A little embarassment, but beats going to a prostitute

[sheSaid]

Not feeling like your spouse is attracted to you would be incredibly hard. I love my husband. I love his soul, his sense of humor, how he makes me feel, I love so many things about him. At one point when we were having struggles with our sex life he asked me if he were more fit if I might be more attracted to him and that it might be better.
That was so awful for him to ask, and to discuss! I would never, ever want to hurt him. But did/do I miss the fitter man he used to be? yes partly. But the issues with our sex life were not that at all. Mostly I want him to be healthier so that he will be around and have energy for our family. Would it be nice if he were fitter from a visual stand point... yeah. But my love for him doesnt change. My attraction to him is to him as a person which is so much more than just physical.

So I think both partners need to explore their feelings seperatly and together. And wow we all should watch what we say with spite! That is a lesson I have learned. When I am just fuming about something that is the worst time to bring up most issues.... you gotta just sit on it till you can be gentle with each other and yourselves.

[Julie]

Re: gaining weight to insulate yourself from dealing with bigger issues in your life/marriage? Um, ya. Have done it, and definitely know others who have done it. It's not at all something you decide to do consciously like "Hey, I'm really pissed off at my husband and thing he's a royal prick so I'm going to get fat to punish him....and punish myself for choosing him" kind of thing. It's amazing how deceitful our minds can be with.....our minds. It's also why I think therapy should be required (state/federal mandate? Hee hee) for all women who decide to get married and/or have kids. And men too, I guess.

One other thing that always amazes me about body image.....I have had days where I'll put something on in the morning, think it looks awesome, then an hour later (often after a meal) look at the mirror again and see something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Even though I know it's all in my head and that I look exactly the same as I did a few hours earlier......it's completely warped. Which is why I try to get in a good frame of mind before shopping for clothes, or getting dressed. Because invariably I will see what I want to/expect to see in the mirror. So I might as well make sure it's something I like.

And Moxie.....I'm so glad you had that revelation about your happy life this morning. It's so true - for you and for everyone. If you take control of your situation, make some decisions about what you want your life to be like and then take action, you are guaranteed to have a happy life. I often visualize myself at the end of my life an old lady looking back on all the shit I've slogged through (whether I decide to have just one kid or two, stay with my husband or divorce him).....I am certain I will be happy with my choices, and that I handled them with grace and dignity. Good for you.

[anonymous]

Thanks Moxie...... I think that hiding who I am is a big part of my lifetime problems with weight, going back to some issues relating to icky sex stuff (not overt abuse) and being a complete fish out of water as I was growing up. This extra weight, even though I have more of it now, is part of my identity, the part of the identity that says, what a loser you are. It's hard for me to imagine being svelte and strong and saying, "look at me world!"

@marypoppins: I actually don't have a problem with porn in the abstract. But when my husband turned me down as the initiator, saying he didn't feel sexual, and then the next morning I'd find downloaded pictures on the computer desktop and.... other evidence.... as if he subliminally wanted me to see it......... that felt pretty damn bad.

There are so many issues in our marriage, this is really only the tip of the iceberg. I think that I've been trying to hold on a while longer while things get better - the employment situation is better at least. But a part of me is really grappling with the idea of leaving. And I'm posting anonymously here because this is something I've hid from everyone except my therapist and my best girlfriend who lives across the country. I guess I have the feeling that if I told anyone how bad things were they'd see that I don't have much self-respect and be shocked that I haven't gotten out already.

I can't believe I'm writing it. Maybe I need to write it to admit it to myself. Having said all that, I don't mean to turn this into my pity party. It's just that this feels like a safe place to air these kinds of things. And get real feedback. Which, even though I at first felt like Bridget was being callous too, I am trying to consider her point of view as a real option. I'm not there yet. Maybe I can get there, not for HIM or even necessarily for our marriage, but for me.

[Sherry]

I think it's cool that marital issues are no longer off the table at Moxie's blog. :)

[hedra]

@Sherry, ditto.

@Anonymous, I considered the multitude of issues possible, and yeah, I definitely think you can incorporate a wide range of perspectives in your life. Many of them will have some grain of truth.

The thing that made me think with Bridget's response was about what happened with me when I lost the weight so rapidly. It wasn't that I was packing it on specifically for a psychological process - I did and do have a reaction to dairy protiens that cause me to swell up and start craving foods like MAD. And when I'm off the dairy, the cravings and eating are MUCH better managed, and the weight gets to a normal level. BUT, when my weight started dropping, it also uncovered some other things I'd been burdened with. So it wasn't entirely the 'I gain to hide the issues or protect myself' but 'when I gain, I then USE the gain to hide the issues and protect myself, instead of using other coping strategies that might or might not be more useful'. It ends up being just handy that I gained, sometimes. So, well, sometimes for me, 'just losing the weight' is one way to expose what I've covered up, but at the same time it isn't always a route out - it just means I use some other mechanism when the weight comes off.

That said, definitely other issues to deal with in your life. I wish you the best of luck with the process. I'll go back to my mom's rule, which is that the true measure of a relationship is in how it affects your other relationships - a good one will enhance all your other relationships, a bad one will suppress, frustrate, or damage your other relationships. Without even trying. And I've found it is usually in ways that reflect what is going wrong - that is, when I'm disrespected, it's the respect that is lacking elsewhere. Which makes me think that perhaps trust, honesty, and communication are key issues in what's up with your current situation, if that's what gone from your IRL friendships about your inner life.

Granted, that's observation through the typed word, so take it with a large grain of salt. And a hug, because where you are is really painful, regardless of all the factors that are or are not involved.

[JS]

I know this is an unpopular way of thinking about this, but here goes...

There is a difference between being 'heavy' (especially by today's standards) and being 'obese'. I believe the difference is one of how well you take care of your body. Obesity speaks to a larger issue of self-loathing, the opposite of loving yourself. Obesity is unhealthy. There are dozens if not hundreds of medical studies that come to that same conclusion, in a variety of different ways (unhealthy for your heart, your liver, your kidneys, your skin, etc. etc. etc.). It is delusional to try and "love" an obese body. If you are putting crap into your body and not exercising, you are abusing your body. Abuse is never helpful towards establishing a loving relationship.

I'm not sure I disagree with the idea of a marital discussion in which one partner tells the other of waning attraction, and outlines the reasons. (I can't speak to anon's husband, since I wasn't there, but it sounds to me as if his was not a particularly loving approach. I have no patience for cruelty, and it sounds like this was the case in that discussion. That's a whole other issue.) Particularly if the reasons of lessening attraction can be addressed/ameliorated, particularly if the reasons are associated with the health of your partner. I am NOT saying that a husband or wife has a right to say, "You're fat, so I don't want to have sex with you." But how about, "You're not taking care of your body, and that's a turn-off for me." ?

I should also say that I don't agree with the notion that marital love is or should be unconditional. Love comes in many, many forms and guises, and it has been my experience that most love isn't unconditional, and has to be worked at. Hard. And sometimes it still doesn't work. That doesn't make the love or the period spent loving less worthy.

[hedra]

Huh, I was sure I wrote the full sentence there - I considered the full range of issues in the responses yesterday, and I wasn't sure what to say back on that yet... somehow it sounds like I was thinking 'here, I did the thinking for you' and what I meant was 'I was doing some thinking ABOUT you'. Oy.

[JS]

Oh, and Moxy, I'm loving the "self-indulgent navel gazing" stuff. I love the reader question stuff too, though. Just saying, it's all good. No need for apologies.

[JS]

(I missed all the Bridget stuff from yesterday, and it doesn't seem to be up there anymore. I'm presuming it was too flame-y to be left in forum?)

(And, whoops, sorry Moxie for the misspelling.)

[Moxie]

JS, it's still there, just on the second page of comments. I forgot how to link to a comment on the second page of comments. Go to the second page and it's about half-way down, maybe. I didn't think it was flamey, just more of a "keep a stiff upper lip" POV that makes sense to me (I hypothesize) if the marriage is healthy, but doesn't seem to apply to Anonymous's situation.

marypoppins, I'm kind of neutral on porn in general, but turning down your wife who's instigating in favor of porn is just hurtful, and speaks to a problem somewhere.

[hedra]

@JS, it's still there, second page of comments. And it wasn't flame-y, just confusion over the responses, and a different perspective from a different place.

Actually, it reminded me (on reread) intensely of my thesis advisor's response to me when I said I was having trouble dealing with some of the childhood s*xual abuse issues that were resurfacing at difficult times (like freakin' EXAM WEEK). She said, 'I don't understand the problem - it was in the past, right, so just move on, and deal with now.' She was totally confused why I couldn't focus on studying after waking up from a night of dream flashbacks. They're JUST dreams, it's JUST the past.

Which on the surface is totally fine advice, and when one is mainly through the process it does become a matter of acknowledging that it isn't now and moving on. It is also completely ineffective at any time before that point. Not necessarily wrong advice or thinking, just totally the wrong time, wrong season, for that particular information.

[hedra]

heh, simulpost! Tag, you're it!

[Anonforthis]

I am in a relationship where my husband's lack of concern about his health is affecting my feelings about him. He is a wonderful man, but I struggle with his indifference towards eating right and exercising. He is a binger--eating multiple things at night (often crap) and not caring about whether he eats in a balanced manner. He acts as if diet coke and coffee is the best hydration. He also doesn't exercise although he claims that he'd like to get in better shape.

Our sex life has suffered- but I truly do not believe that his poor health habits are the primary reason for this. It's my being on an antidepressant for years and my inability to appropriately manage my anger -I think I use withholding of sex as a punishment to him (when in reality I am mostly punishing myself). And, the reality is that I love my husband to death despite my major annoyances w/certain of his personality characteristics. He constantly tells me how beautiful I am, how sexy, without judgment. And, yes, I'm a hypocrit b/c I am carrying around 25 extra pounds and although I am more health conscious than him, I by no means am a regular exerciser and chocolate/dessert shunner.

I guess my point is what should a spouse do when the other spouse is truly not concerned about his/her health and there is a real element that this could affect the likelihood of this person being around for his/her children 20 years down the road? Especially when this person does not have the best longevity in his/her extended family? And, what if there is the complicating reality of not being as attracted to the person when they are heavier--i.e. does that make me a terrible person? Am I just avoiding the "real" issues w/weight being an easy dumping ground for my anger about other things? Possibly...but communication of these feelings to my husband is complex b/c I want him to feel that it is important to be healthy (truly) for himself but also for our children, while also simultaneously wanting him to be more fit. I know that I can't change him-- but this indifference is hard for me to accept.

Marital issues on the table, indeed.

[hedra]

For some of these issues, I think seeing a therapist (together) is a good start, even as an ice-breaker in the process. I like to have a mediator for the scary stuff, if I can. It doesn't always work for the long-term, but it sure makes the initial conversation easier when there's a professional referee who can spot the BS statements, the hiding my own issues under another issue, etc.

Barring that, I'd probably go with the fear issue under it all. 'Looking into the future, I see myself going this alone, and that scares me.' It's really a problem-solving thing, with the problem separate from the individuals. He has a problem in there, too - perhaps with needing to feel he can indulge himself, that he is worth being 'allowed', or something else that you can sense would be an issue if you brought this up. Keeping it 'I have a problem, and I need your help finding a solution' is a) pretty fair, and b) easier for most men I know to deal with (problems can be solved, feelings cannot).

Anyway, that's my best crack at it. Leave the irritating details aside, and deal with your problem - it may be that the irritating details become unimportant, or change, with the process as it unfolds.

[Agnes]

@JS - Yes, obesity is unhealthy. However, numerous studies have also demonstrated that it is almost impossible to maintain a large weight loss as an adult (short of something like bariatric surgery). Your chances of doing it are something like your chances of surviving lung cancer. So, it really isn't that helpful to tell people to lose weight, when society is doing a fine job of telling them not only that they need to lose weight, but that they are ugly and unworthy and unhealthy because they're fat.

But studies also show that exercise is good for your health, pretty much regardless of your weight, and it's a lot easier to stick to. So if someone is truly concerned about a person's health, and not pretending to be concerned about their health but really only concerned with the way they look, then finding ways to encourage activity is the best bet. (But physical activity of the sort that your average mother can fit in her day is not going to result in much weight loss.)

Also, there are plenty of things about one's body that are less than ideal for people's health that one have to cope with one way or the other. Should we encourage the disabled or chronically ill to dislike their bodies?

[Mommy-O]

Whew, I don't know where to start and I chose not to comment yesterday so watch out for verbal/written diahrrea.

Although I am glad a size 0 didn't win America's top model, I am very sad that they are spinning it that a size 10 woman is a Plus size. They must know that there are thousands of young women out there now thinking "I'm a size 10 so I must be plus size too". As someone who worked for an Eating Disorder program, this is so dangerous and not the huge coup they are making it out to be.

As for emotional weight issues, that's me. I have always had a "fat girl" mentality even when I was really fit and thin. Never happy with my body, smart enough, good enough to be loved, have friends, blah blah blah. My self image was dependent on what other people thought about me. Actually, when I was at my most fit, I was in an unhealthy controlling relationship and once I left to another unhealthy relationship I started putting the weight on.

I was thinner and mentally healthier when I met my husband but have gradually gained weight over the years and I am now at my heaviest and most unhealthy mentally and physically. I need to be fit for myself but also for my kids. I need to be a good role model and having had kids later in life, I want to be around as long as possible to watch them grow up and hopefully meet my grandchildren one day.

As for my husband, he loves me no matter what I look like and he always tells me so, verbally and affectionately. For someone who has lived life to please others, this is very overwhelming and it means the motivation to get fit has to come from me this time.

And the embarrassing part - I was very healthy through my pregnancy with my daughter. I felt the awe for my body's strength and capabilities. I did my kegels regularly before and after giving birth. A couple years after, during a pelvic exam, my dr. had to use a larger speculum and she wasn't very sensitive about it. I was horrified and became really self conscious. The horror subsided because my husband still seemed interested in sex and there weren't any issues with sensitivity. But now, having given birth to a rather large baby I am extremely self-conscious. I feel like I have a gaping hole down there that my husband will fall into if we have sex. I can just see the headlines, "Man disappears into wife's Va J J during relations". The worst part is how do I get perspective on this? With weight, boob size, etc. you have a pretty good idea how you compare to others. Just curious if anyone else has felt this way.

[marypoppins]

@anonymous/moxie

Absolutely!

[JS]

Ah, thanks to Hedra & Moxie for directing me to Page 2. *how embarrassing* that I couldn't find it on my own.

I'm not sure I disagree with Bridget's point. I'm not sure I totally agree with it either. I do believe that it is important to be/stay/become fit and healthy individuals - but I guess I hope that the primary motivation for that is self-love and self-worth instead of trying to live up to someone else's ideals (which never works anyway). I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to be attractive, believe you me. And I'd be lying if I said all my motivation came from a deep, healthy love of myself and my body. (Ha!) But that is what I aim for, I guess, even if I have to take baby steps to get there.

[JS]

Agnes - I have read no studies that say an adult is not able to lose weight and keep it off. I will freely admit this might be ignorance on my part. I *have* read a bunch of stuff that talk about how any weight loss done via extreme dieting (no matter what diet) and binge exercise programs will never help keep weight off. What metabolic doctors have told me (and what I can personally attest to) is that the only way to lose weight and keep it off is to have an entire lifelong lifestyle change. It's slower than exciting diets and binge exercising, but it works.

I have to say, I do have a problem with comparing obesity to cancer, disability, and chronic illness. I'm sure everyone, myself included, knows someone with cancer, or a parent of a disabled child; I can tell you that if ever I were to say to these desperate individuals, "Eat x number of calories per day, and try and run a couple miles a few times a week", there is nothing - *nothing* - that would stop them from doing just that to cure their cancer or their spinal bifida or what-have-you. It is not a similar comparison, not at all.

[Amy]

I don't have time to read the comments and don't actually have time to post (#3 is 1 today and there's much to be done to get ready for the festivities!), but I do want to throw this out there.

Know what I hate? I hate that I buy into the whole negative thing. Not just about myself, but about others too. I hate it that when I see a woman wearing an outfit that doesn't suit her body I actually think to myself, "Wow, she should have looked in the mirror!" I *hate* that I am part of the problem. But how do we stop that voice in our heads? How do I stop my mother's voice who is constantly saying "Oooo, she needs to have some work done." Or my catty teenage voice that says, "Wow, that's about 4 sizes too small lady." Or the worst, my mommy voice who as she herself stands in life at the fast food place says, "Step away from the cheeseburger mommy-who-hasn't-lost-the-baby-weight." I mean, *I* haven't even lost the baby weight, and *I*'m standing in line waiting for my cheeseburger, but b/c, what? I'm a few sizes smaller it's okay for me to indulge and not others? Aaaargh. I hate this about myself.

Why have I bought into the bad side of the body image problem... when quite frankly, my body is NOTHING to write home about and none of my clothes fit either!!

[Moxie]

I think taking care of yourself is something that's fun and that you like to do when you feel good about yourself and your life. Getting a pedicure is fun if you care about your toes. Shopping for new clothes is fun if you see that as part of taking care of yourself. So is maintaining a body shape.

(That's why divorced/divorcing women start to get interested in maintaining themselves again--they start to feel good about themselves.)

So, to me, wanting to keep myself in good shape is about me rather than feeling like I have to live up to a spouse's expectations. BUT, not wanting to keep myself up indicates a problem. So the weight would be the symptom of that. And that's where the problem lies, in the not feeling good enough to care about taking care of yourself.

I have no idea how to make someone feel good enough about themselves to take care of themselves. Maybe slip some Omega 3s and B vitamins into their food?

[jessica star]

Just listening the last couple days and thinking how brave everyone in this forum is for speaking these things aloud. I'm inspired to get healthier. Thank you, ladies.

[AnotherAnon]

I've got the reverse weight issue going on, ever since my husband made a cruel/abusive comment about my weight. At the time I was 125 lbs and I'm 5'9", and the man called me "fat ass". That was not the only time he called me that, and food has become a REAL issue for me. I eat well and have actually gained a little weight because taking care of myself (for my kids) is very important to me, but when my husband is criticizing me for my imaginary fault du jour there's a very angry voice in my head that thinks that maybe if I lose enough weight I will disappear. I am trying to work up the nerve to leave him but am not there yet.

So when someone tells me how lucky I am to be so thin, it kills me. I'd much rather be fat and happy than a miserable size 6.

[hedra]

@Mommy-O, pelvic floor physical therapy exists. I haven't done it, but I know two people who have, and have said it is amazing, affirming, and very helpful in the physical wellbeing department. Core muscle exercise is a grand thing, but it's better to have a floor under the core!

As someone who had a couple of large babies, I can say 'stretchy does not mean the same as floppy'. (And my m/w's had to change speculum sizes as well, but said it had to do with having had the connective tissue stretched, not the muscles.)

I'm definitely on board with the self-care being about SELF.

[hedra]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080514091013.htm

According to this, the comment about long-term success on weight loss for the obese (that is, that it is really rare to succeed) is correct. About 5% succeed in keeping off weight lost for even a year.

BUT, the article is talking about a program that (strangely enough) mirrors what we've been talking about - multiple skills overlapping to produce the long-term results. It's not JUST exercise and diet - it's reconnecting with your body (dance therapy, now that's a great idea!), and it's about learning (possibly for the first time) how to listen to our bodies. Those three together (plus long-term support) seem to do THE trick (70% kept off the loss for 5 years!).

It goes back to the things we learn as kids. What did we learn? To ignore our body's cues (eat when *I* tell you to, what I tell you to eat, and how much I think you need! No, don't trust your body to tell you that you're full, you're not finished. And don't eat now, dinner is almost ready, put that snack away.), to disconnect from our bodies (especially by modeling the disconnect between our body being functional and useful and good and needing it to be different, better somehow). It all ties in together.

Anyway, there's hope. Working all the skills, it looks like there's a much better chance of the good effort coming together and paying off.

[Nina M]

Wow, I have a lot of thoughts.

@Anonymous--I agree with Moxie here. Sorry, but your husband sounds like a callous jerk. If you really still love him, maybe you could try couples therapy. That sounds like a passive version of mental abuse.

@JS--As someone who is in the research side of kinesiology (exercise science), obesity is an epidemic. I've watched my mother-in-law, who is obese, deal with tremendous physical and mental health issues. Although I wouldn't necessarily compare obesity to cancer, simply telling someone to change his/her diet and exercise a bit is an oversimplification of the issue. Which brings me to my thoughts about this issue in general.

This country is a messed up dichotomy of convenience and bigger is better on one hand, while on the other the media shoves images of super-thin stars at us. So at the same time we're being bombarded with "buy this, eat that" we are also beating ourselves up for not being sticks with large breasts. While I say this and know it intellectually, I am stuck right in there. It seems like a lot of posts have been about women being happy with their bodies after gaining weight or "imperfections" and only now realizing the beautiful bodies they "used" to have. But how are you going to feel about your body if you lost that "extra" weight or were able to erase the scars? I am at the lowest weight of my life and not even close to overweight and I'm still not happy. While I might feel worse about myself if I gained weight, it's not really about the weight--it's about accepting/loving who you are INSIDE. There are more women on this planet than men; WHY are we buying into this??? Why are we letting the media say that a size 0 is the best weight to be? And why are we beating ourselves up over it? While being overweight/obese is generally not healthy, that doesn't mean someone who is cannot be either attractive or happy. If we don't do it, who's going to lead the revolt, against the media and ourselves?

[CharlieGirl]

@Moxie, I love the point that newly single women start taking better care of themselves because they feel better again. That is what I took away from the conversation yesterday, and again today. People who love themselves and feel good take care of themselves, and people who take care of themselves love themselves and feel good. It is a circle, and I don't know which comes first. My guess is that the habits and feelings grow together.

This is, of course, a generalization. I am sure there are plenty of self-loathers out there in great shape, and plenty of people in not great shape who love themselves and are fine. But I do think that self-respect encourages us to spend some of our precious time on ourselves.

@AnotherAnon, that is really just crummy. I hope you find a way to be healthy and not let his issues impact your body.

[chapmanchick]

I gained almost 70 pounds during my pregnancy. I am now down 50 but it has been rough on my body image. To add to what I was already beating myself up about, my husband told me that although he still loves me, he is no longer attracted to me. This felt sooooo horrible. Then I shared it with a friend, and a week later she told me that 3 other ladies had said the same thing - that their husbands were no longer attracted to them. And then I saw the same thing on Oprah a few days later. WHAT is going on here?

[Michelle]

Bridget has a good point about taking responsibility for your own physique. On the other hand, being sexy and having a good, passionate relationship with your partner or spouse is about much more than your fitness level. And Bridget is TOTALLY batty if she thinks that being fit will prevent anybody's spouse from cheating.

I think the problem is not so much that fat is unattractive, but more that self-loathing is unattractive. And there is nothing that will cool a relationship like "the confidence pit"- not depression, exactly, but where your life just gets so busy or so stressful on different fronts that you have several negative things going at once and you suddenly realize you've gained 15 pounds, have 4 inches of grey roots in your hair and haven't shared a laugh with your man in months.

So...my plan is to do what I can to feel like a hot tamale RIGHT NOW...and do what I can towards the longer goal of improving my fitness, etc.

[Melba]

@chapmanchick, sounds like something that's more common than I thought. What do these men expect? That their 25 year old bride will look the same forever? We all age. We all change. Lots of us will have weight problems as our metabolisms slow down with age. MEN INCLUDED.

What a load of crap it is that aging and weight gain has different levels of acceptability depending on gender. Look at men like John Travolta or William Shatner who have clearly gained weight with age but are still considered very sexy men. Do you think a woman of the same stature would get the same status? I can't even think of one right now. Not one.

I don't mean to say that weight gain is *caused* by aging but certain things happen as we gain years of life - we have babies, our stress levels increase, our metabolism slows down, menopause mucks up the whole works, etc. These things cause changes to a woman's body and the last thing we need is a man telling us we aren't sexy anymore. As if he hasn't aged too, and I'd love to see how he looks/feels after giving birth a few times. Women give their husbands the greatest gift of their children, and sacrifice their bodies in doing so. You'd think that they'd be a little more appreciative and understanding.

Sorry for the rant. And sorry if I sound like I'm painting all men with a broad brush, I know that lots of them are not like that but it just makes me MAD that some of them are.

[JS]

First, I want to say this is a *fabulous* discussion. I'm really getting a lot out of everyone's perspective, and I think everyone who is sharing is tremendously brave.

@NinaM, I don't believe I ever said that obesity was a quick fix, and that all it took was telling someone to diet and exercise. Clearly this is not the case. My point was an objection to comparing obesity to terminal illnesses or disabilities. In fact, part of what makes the comparison invalid is the reaction of the patient to medical advice. I know - and love - several obese individuals, and in my experience it is not a simple matter at all. There is so much mental health (and unhealth) wrapped up in obesity. There is an element of denial in obese patients that one doesn't find in terminally ill patients. There is a level of apathy about the problem, an extraordinary ability to find excuses as to why something can't be done (no time, no energy, no money, no whatever...) "Fixing" or "curing" the problem is not a desperate thing (which is completely unlike both society's and a patient's approach to cancer, or severe disabilities...).

@Moxie and @CharlieGirl...I too identify with the idea that taking care of yourself is easier when you feel good. It's one of those viscious cycles when it's in the down - exercise makes you feel better, but if you're not feeling good, you don't want to exercise, and a lovely cycle when you're in the upswing of it (you feel great and so you exercise which makes you feel better and so..).

@hedra - great article that you linked to. I spend a lot of time thinking about body issues, and I really believe that so many weight issues (on both ends of the spectrum) are inexoribly tied to self image and knowing how to respect and love your body; having a real relationship with your body. That article sums it all up nicely for me, and sounds smarter than me while doing it.

[Sarah]

My "aha!" moment was when I finally admitted to myself that I don't have a weight problem, I have a FOOD problem. My relationship with food is a dysfunctional one and, much like the people relationship counter-part, routine and rolling along with something that doesn't work is often easier than change.

I simply can't understand why I don't make healthier choices for myself. I feel like a lunatic telling myself how badly I need to get healthy while reaching for something terribly unhealthy to eat!

I'm nearly 100% sure that I'm using the extra weight to insulate myself from something(s). Not sure what, though.

It's a struggle. :(

[Melba]

Oh, something else I wanted to mention...

I have an aunt who was in an unhealthy long term relationship with an obese man for about 10 years. Over those 10 years she slowly packed on the pounds until she was obese too. Last September, she turned 60, and decided that she was sick of being unhappy and wanted more out of life. She ended the unhealthy relationship, stared doing things for herself that make her happy (took up cross-stitch for example instead of couch-potatoing) and wouldn't you know it, the weight just started coming off. The more weight that came off, the better she felt, the more energy she had, the more active she was, and the more weight came off. I don't know how many pounds she's lost but I'd guess 50+ at least. She is a different person now, not only on the outside but on the inside too.

Just goes to the point that your weight is not just a function of how you eat and exercize. It's a function of your mental state and the influences of people in your life as well.

I know I've made it sound really simple but it wasn't. I don't know how she did it really. But somehow she did.

[Julie]

Hedra, thanks for sharing my favorite "hedra's mom-ism" today about how you know your relationship is healthy (or not). I'm not sure I can say how exactly it's helped me......but it's a little gem I have stored in my pocket that gives me great peace of mind.

Exercise is something I do for myself. Ya, I want to lose weight, and ya I want all the young guys I walk by to say "there goes a MILF" rather than "She has an old face" (true story, but in my defense they were like 18 years old, so yes....37 IS in fact an old face). I exercise because it makes me feel good. I don't do it for my husband or anyone else.

I am reminded of what Moxie said the other day about her wheat allergies and as soon as she came clean with everyone in her life about what she wanted and started taking steps toward that reality instead of just thinking about it and worrying about it, her wheat allergy disappeared. Our bodies have very interesting ways of communicating with us. And if we choose not to listen to that niggling feeling of doubt or annoyance, our bodies will take stronger, more obvious action to get our attention that something is out of balance. For some people, that might be weight gain. It's a good reminder to all of us to pay attention and be present in our lives, rather than just trying to get through today so we can get through tomorrow. Which I am as guilty of as anyone.

[Suz]

Wow, so much of this is resonating with me. I have been periodically checking in for the past two days and seeing so much I identify with. However, my main issue hasn't been broached yet, and I wonder if others face it as well. I went on anti-depressants when I was 18. I slowly gained weight. The only time I actually lost weight was the two times I was off the meds (once un-doctor sanctioned and once WHEN I WAS PREGNANT!!!!

So, I think my weight issues (I have about 20lbs of issues) are due, at least in part, to my meds). I have had to make a decision over the past few years about which is more important: mental or physical health. I am currently at a point where I can fathom not taking meds. So I'm going off (doctor sanctioned this time). And it's going well. I'm also 17lbs lighter than when I got pregnant (my daughter's 10.5 months). I'm sure it helps that I'm exercising a lot more and eating pretty right, but I suspect that the lack of meds has helped.
I think the other thing that has helped is that my impetus for losing weight this time around is really based in my desire to be a good example for my daughter. I want her to know a mother who, while not stick thin, is healthy and energetic and not sitting on her butt all day long.
Has anyone else had this experience?

[nancy]

A great blog, with great pix, is The Shape of a Mother. (http://theshapeofamother.com/home.php) It is full of so much hope and self acceptance, I just love it.

Check out some of these strong, courageous and BEAUTIFUL mothers and their bodies.

And no, I am not the author or related to her in any way. I just think it is a great blog and very on topic with this post.

[sammy]

@marypoppins:

While I would certainly rather find my husband looking at porn than actually engaging in physical sex with another woman, I am definetely not neutral on the topic. I think that way too many marriages/relationships have been ruined by porn. Pornography gives one a false idea of what sex should be, or really is. I'm not saying that sex should be boring or that you should just stick to the missionary position! On the contrary... But to invite someone elses (usually quite unrealistic) sexual experiences into your relationship is a recipe for problems. I know that if my husband were to view porn i would feel like he had cheated on me in some small way.

any one agree with me? anyone think I'm crazy?

[sammy]

@Amy:

I've think you've raised a really interesting point. I too have found myself thinking judgemental thoughts about women who don't look a certain way. Its funny that I consider myself something of a feminist, and yet fall victim to the very attitude that traps our society in this vicious cycle. I think in a way we are all part of the problem. What will it take to TRULY change our thinking?

[liz]

I haven't read all the comments (it's after midnight as I write this and I need to get to bed but had to find out what's goin' on over at Moxie's first!) so I'm not sure if anyone here has mentioned the Health At Every Size movement.

I first got interested in it through Kate Harding's blog (http://kateharding.net/but-dont-you-realize-fat-is-unhealthy/) and am a true believer. Check out her Illustrated BMI Project (http://kateharding.net/but-dont-you-realize-fat-is-unhealthy/).

I guess the thing I take away most from her site is that women of ALL sizes feel that they are not good enough, not beautiful enough, not thin enough, not perfect enough...and that shit has got to stop. We are all beautiful. We need to own it.

[Kel]

I wasn't going to chime in, but this is so right on. I'm at day four of my first T-Tapp bootcamp and for the first time in years (twins will be three in July) feel like I'm getting in the right place with my body. I've tried to think that the miracle that my body did making three babies was just the price for what was left behind. I'm not heavy, just so out of shape.

I agree that you cannot expect to get where you want to go until you are doing it for yourself (be it with food, drink, etc).

Only I wanted to add something else to the conversation that I haven't seen yet. I want to look good for my kids. No, that's not right: I want to feel good about how I look for my kids. I want to go to the beach and the community pool with them and splash in the water with abandon, not sixteen layers of t-shirts on. I want to teach them all (a boy and two girls) what sexy is by being "sexy" for myself: playful and joyous about clothes, proud of my body and all its faults, easy (and non-judemental, amen Amy) in the presence of others who don't look like us, able and happy to jump up and dance with them when ever music is playing.

I want to do all this for them because I think many of my body issues are directly related to how my mother felt and behaved in her body when I was growing up (good ways and bad). And it was so subtle. She never had to say she hated curly hair (we both have it), she only had to pay to have hers straightened. She never had to say she hated her stomach, but she hated buying bathing suits every year. How are my kids supposed to know how to feel if I'm not helping them by example? I don't think they can. And I think the messages they will get outside the family aren't going to be good ones.

Great conversation, as always,

Kel

[paola]

I have to agree with Liz. I don't know anyone that is completely satisfied with what they look like or how much ty weigh. Not that I know any models, but I remember reading that even the most famous weren't completely satisfied with what God gave them (bitches!). I know that I look in the mirror and think, hate this, hate that, and I'm the thinnest I've ever been, and am constantly told that I look great (for my age (41), and two pregnancies.) Don't get me wrong, am definitely not ungrateful, but what I'm saying is that there is something out there that makes us ALL feel like that (in varying degrees.) I think it's human nature to not be 100% satisfied with our lot, perhaps as a mechanism to make us strive more to better our situations. Don't know.

BTW, about these husbands that don't find their wives sexually attractive anymore after years of marriage, babies etc, well, what about us women? Don't some of us find our husbands not that sexy either, but because we love them, we make an effort sexually anyway? Few of us are married to George Cluney for Pete's sake.

[Colleen]

@ Bridget on marraige--Perhaps you'd like to meet my dad, who after 30 years of marraige and three kids left my mom for what really came down to physical reasons. He wanted his wife to look fit and young, and i think it's no coincidence that his affair started right around the time when his first kid, me, got married. When you are 50 and still 'great looking for your age,' I honestly hope your husband sees you as 'great looking for your age' and not a woman past her prime who is trying really hard. My point not to be snarky, but to bring into the discussion that it's communication, not sexual attraction and activity, that will make a marraige last. The latter is a sign of healthy communication, not people paying lots of attention to their looks.

[hedra]

I got my post on this up, finally... and here y'all are adding more good points for me to think on. Dang. Or, um, thanks. :)

[anonymous]

@Melba, and also re: Moxie's wheat allergies..... I have often wondered whether my weight and my chronic pain issues would get better if I were happier, less stressed, slept better. I know that they are related. I had a big realization recently when I understood that I often eat more when I am in more pain (because my body rarely feels *good* it at least gives me some other physical feeling to focus on). And exercise often hurts, but also sometimes feels good, a connection with my body.

I read (in Oprah Magazine I think) about another kind of body therapy--lotion therapy. Just putting on lotion, every night, telling yourself while you do it that this is your body, it deserves care, it deserves comfort. It has been so long since I've taken care of my body in any but the basic personal hygiene ways. No nail polish, rarely makeup, go months between haircuts... I'm glad that people here have brought up these issues because I really do feel that they're related.

I think that despite everything going on in my marriage, I should make it a priority to get back in touch with my physical self (and I need to get past using my husband's inertia as an excuse). Do the things that I know help my pain (breathing, stretching) and do the things that I know will help me with body image (exercising) and do what I know will help me feel more energetic (getting outside, eating whole foods). I want to try to look at my daughter as a model here, because she's young enough to still really be in her body and enjoy the feelings her body gives her.

And, well, if I can't find time to bike or roller blade or whatever, I will insist that my husband watch my daughter while I do so. Because, honestly, although he's treated me badly in many ways I haven't stood up for myself, or asked for/demanded what I need.