More on tapping into your own unresolved issues

Every once in awhile we talk about it directly, but almost every post contains some component of having our buttons pushed. Yesterday's post on grieving the loss of the special relationship with a first child put it right back in the front of my mind.

I posted the specifics of what it was that I realized was happening to my son that had happened to me in the comments:

"The mismatch I felt was that my son seemed to be really angry and want to cry and I felt like I couldn't comfort him. And then I offhandedly made a remark to my therapist about how my mom said I just wanted to hurtle out of her arms, and I always felt like she was trying to make everything better all the time.

And my therapist connected the dots in half a second and said, "So it sounds like you really just wanted someone to acknowledge and accept your anger, not tell you that everything was going to be OK."

Um, duh. So, yeah, once I started saying to my son "You're angry! You feel mad and sad and you just want to cry!" And he'd look at me and then stop crying and want to hug me! Like as soon as I acknowledged his angry feelings and validated them instead of just glossing over them and trying to comfort him, he didn't need to be so angry anymore.

Then, strangely, it started to be easier for me to be angry. And I talked to my mom about it, and she realized she was never really allowed to be angry as a child, either. And, even more strangely, in the past few years since having this realization, my mom has allowed herself to have her own anger, too.

Round, like a circle like a wheel within a wheel..."

And hedra hit it right between the eyes with this assessment:

"4) Check your own history. If your pain seems at all out of true to the situation, likely you're handling two situations at once - the current one, and something in the past. Worth looking into. I found I was mourning my own relationship change to my mom from back when my baby brother was born. AND some of the pre-and-post divorce-of-my-parents emotional burden. I'd 'repaired the rift' through the relationship with my eldest, and then here it was torn open again! I learned instead to allow the stretch in the process, and recognize that as a child I saw the relationship as torn APART when it was merely stretched to a thinner thread and greater distance. As an adult I can see that the thread is and always was there, it just wasn't something I could recognize. (Which isn't to say that I don't sometimes feel like the relationship I had with G isn't just busted a bit - we get along well, but I still feel the sharp edges of what used to be my perception of the relationship join... only, I suspect that's still old history showing up again, too. It's not so big an issue for me that I feel a need to go back into therapy at the moment, but I could see how it could have been if I hadn't already done a huge amount of therapy BEFORE child two came along!)."

The more I live as a parent, the more I think that it's only partially about parenting the child in front of you, but partially about healing yourself. And whenever you feel emotion out of proportion to the actual situation, that's telling you that you've hit on something in yourself that wasn't right. (So maybe Marina is particularly feeling this because she felt a loss as an older child, and maybe Jennifer is feeling bad for the second because she didn't get enough alone time with her parents.)

I got an email a few months ago from a women who wanted to know what to do about her toddler daughter's crying, because it literally made her cower and shake, and she'd do anything to get her daughter to stop crying. (Not a sustainable model.) She wanted to know if I had any tips to stop a toddler from crying. (Short of duck tape, no.) I asked if she'd been allowed to cry when she was a toddler. She said that no, she'd had to be quiet because her dad was an alcoholic and would fly into an absolute rage whenever the kids made any noise. Bingo! But when I pointed this out and said she could use the crying reaction as a way to help herself and also give her daughter what she didn't get, she didn't want to hear it and just wanted a quick fix to stop her daughter from crying.

I think about that woman at least twice a week, and wonder how things are going. I know there's nothing I can do about her situation. But I'm hoping that by continuing to talk about it here, maybe others of you who are wondering why certain things make you absolutely lose it (out of proportion to the situation--losing it is sometimes the only reasonable reaction) can help figure it out. And that will make things better not only for you, but for your kids.

Thoughts? If you're having situations that are making you feel stuck emotionally, post them and we'll see if we can troubleshoot. That anger thing with me was so simple, but I never would have gotten there on my own. And if anyone else has had revelations, if you post them maybe it will spark something in someone else.

Comments

[enu]

I had, and continue to have, parents most people can only dream of. I'm so grateful for them! So my issue does not stem from my childhood but from what happened after I had my firstborn.

Although a very healthy, vigorous baby (running before she could stand at 10 1/2 months!) she had very poor weight gain and was diagnosed as failure to thrive at 5 months. None of the interventions ( starting calorie dense solids mixed with oil and milk powder, supplementing her with evaporated milk, etc. ) the doctor ordered really changed her growth curve - she stayed there for years. In our state a diagnosis of FTT (based solely on growth curves - as I said, this was a baby meeting all her milestones) leads to an assumption of parental abuse/neglect, and I was investigated for that. It was poorly handled and I was never told the results of the investigation or when/whether it was concluded. I think I can assume it has been by now, since the baby is taking finals at college this week!

We moved when second child was a baby -second child grew along the same curve (and ultimately ended up quite a bit smaller at adult height than first child) but in our new state she was considered totally healthy. Go figure.

I have never quite gotten over this - it certainly affected my entire parenting experience. Only now, with little one about to turn 17 am I starting to really feel secure that the state isn't going to raid my house and take my children away. I used to live in fear of every doctor's appointment, every person in my childrens' lives who was a mandated reporter, every goofy thing that happened that someone - a neighbor, a stranger in the street could misinterpret. Anyone questioning anything about my parenting would throw me into a panic. It was not a good way to live.

Maybe this is self-limiting and will just fade away completely when the younger child turns 18. But that's where _I''m_ stuck, emotionally.

[Aaron]

Great post Moxie. It makes me think of my MIL and how she is with my N. She can't stand to see her cry and always makes such a fuss about her when she is crying. I"m like, back off it's what babies do! Let's figure out whey she's crying and deal with it. My MIL is more like, Oh, poor baby, stop crying, stop crying, stop crying. Drives me nuts! Let her cry and she'll get over it and stop when I figure out what's wrong, or when she's ready to stop.

But, like mentioned above, maybe she was never allowed to cry as a kid, and that is certainly a possibility as her dad was a crotchety thing and I've heard some stories that are kind of scary. She's better now that N is almost 10 months old, but I think that is b/c she has started to take my lead when it comes to that. Thank G-D.

I'm sure I have some issues in all of this too, but I don't have time to explore them as N is napping and I need to get into the shower while I have the chance! Have a great day everyone and keep soul searching.

[Aaron]

Enu, this may be something to be conscious of when your kids start having kids. It may subconciously effect how they parent their babies. Something to think about - this is solely based on Moxie's post-.
Sounds like you did an awesome job as a mom - and still do-, as one is off to college and the other about to graduate high school. Yeah for you!

[Moxie]

Aaron, I also think some stuff just doesn't come up unless that spot gets hit. Like the anger/crying thing never happened with my first, because it wasn't his personality.

enu, I have been so sorry that this happened to you for years. I hope you don't have to wait until your girls have kids to heal from it.

[hedra]

You're so right on this. There are some books out there that address the issue directly ('Raising our children, raising ourselves', for example). But even knowing it and 'addressing it' still means DEALING with it as it comes up.

This is where my huge 'compliance' issue comes from. Most of my parents (including a couple steps) had some kind of issue with compliance that came out on us. My mom was leaking her own pain over the compliance issue from her own childhood on us, and while I'm not having to resolve anything like the depth of pain she was carrying, I still find it leaks out around the edges with me. My dad responded with less rage but more helplessness to noncompliance, my step-dad (#1) was a compliance/anti-compliance vacillator (would celebrate hugely when we were creatively non-compliant under some conditions, and come down like thunder on other incidents, and it only started making sense when I figured out that if it interfered with his convenience it was WRONG, but if it didn't interfere with his convenience, it was 'WOO! Way to break the rules! Stick it to the man! Don't let them tell you how to be yourself!' ... um.) Step-mom (#1) was an alcoholic who demanded compliance and then punished us if we complied in any way other than exactly what she imagined to herself (without having communicated the details).

Actually, step-dad #2 and step-mom #2 weren't like that, but by the time they came along, the issue was already well implanted. Of course it was implanted as a huge set of mixed messages. No wonder I'm so easily frustrated (agitated, really) by issues surrounding compliance! They're the least safe place for the parent-child relationship to be. Sigh. And I'm probably not terribly consistant, either, revisiting that particular discomfort on my kids.

I demand compliance, then USUALLY-but-not-always realize what I'm doing, back off, and try again. Which tends to make my kids hold their line stubbornly because they figure that I'll change MY demand if they hold out long enough. As I've been getting better over time with moving to cooperation instead of compliance (and understanding the difference between giving up the way my dad did and cooperating/problem-solving the way step-dad #2 did), I've had to work that out again with them... which takes a lot of work. BUT, nobody to blame but myself and all my ancestors and step-ancestors back to the first one who blew it bigtime whenever that was... so, :deep breath: I just buck myself up and try to make the next generation's worth of parents a bit less issue-prone, or at least more aware of how to de-issue themselves in the process. (anyone else picture lice combs when they read that? I have to go de-issue myself.).

My mom did definitely try to reduce the issues she left us with compared to where she started. Largely successfully. I don't have issues about my self-worth, identity, personal or physical integrity, responsibility for my own wellbeing, understanding that my emotions belong to me and are not to be dismissed, and on and on... Really, amazing how much she succeeded in NOT passing on. And now it's my turn to walk our family tree out of the muck a bit further.

Not that any family ever gets entirely out of the muck - because we muck up because we're normal, and I think sometimes things grow better in the the muck. I try to think of it as composting my family garden. Some stuff seems pretty foul and rotten but can still be put to good use by taking it out of the way and processing it a bit, better if you have some help (hmm, I think that metaphor just turned 'therapy' into 'worms and bacteria' - but at least both therapy and composting take time, so I think it still fits!).

So hopefully my family's next generation will get the ...uh, joy... of finding their own sore spots and resolving their own issues in their own parenting, too - and being able to use it to improve their own process.

And maybe if I'm as lucky as Moxie's mom is, help resolve something I've left unresolved as well. I still think that's really cool what you did with that, Moxie. Really really cool.

[Beth]

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're talking about, but I recently had a bit of a breakthrough that required a total breakdown before I could get there. One morning on my way out the door, I made a comment to my husband about the way he was preparing a bottle for our son (already a bit of a sore spot because I just gave up breastfeeding during the day in order to have more available time to work outside of the home- bean is 10 months old) and it spiraled from that comment to "you never listen to me" to "you don't respect the way I feel about raising our son" to "I'm not sure if I want to be married to you anymore." I have never said that to my husband before. I was insane! And my poor husband felt like it was 0-60 in .2 seconds. After leaving and sitting in my car crying for about an hour and also talking briefly to my younger sister, I realized a couple of things: 1. I internalize everything. I am unsure if I do this as a result of something that happened to me during my childhood or it began to happen when my mom died when I was 18. My dad (who I have a great relationship with now but was not particularly close to growing up) is not very open. I always talked with my mom about everything and I wanted so badly to talk to her about my feelings about raising my son and what her experience was with my sister and me. 2. I felt guilty about the feelings I was having about my child. I love my son more than I ever thought I could love another person, but I was feeling frustrated with him, I think mostly because he is developing his independence and he gets frustrated when I don't respond to what he wants and I get frustrated when I don't know what he wants. Prior to this stage, I felt I knew him incredibly well and I still feel like for the most part I anticipate his needs, so it frustrates me when I am unable to decipher what he is trying to convey. And I wanted some time away from him, but I felt guilty about that and didn't want to tell my husband or anyone else. Oddly enough, all of this happened on the anniversary of the day my mom died, which I generally don't get too upset about (at least conciously).
Anyway, my explosion made me realize that I need to take the time to acknowledge my feelings and express them to my husband, regardless of how I think he might react to them. Outside the heat of the moment, he was incredible in the way he handled me and validated my feelings and helped me worj through them. I think I still have a ways to go in discovering and working through my own unresolved issues, but I felt like after that blowup, I started to get a bit more on track in that regard.
Sorry for the crazy long post.

[Cathy]

@enu - I was hospitalized at 2 weeks for dehydration - my mother was pretty young when she had me and was trying to nurse but we must not have had that latching thing worked out.

I'm 36 now and my mother still checks to see if I'm thirsty or drinking enough when we visit eachother. It's gotten better - she was always checking when I was a kid.

So, I'm not sure if the scary stuff from when babies are really little ever completely goes away, but I think it does quiet down a lot.

[Beth]

Also, I am amazed at how in touch with yourselves some of you seem to be. Maybe I need to start therapy???

[Joy]

Okay, what is making me crazy right now is the piddling. I was terrible as a child at getting things done in a timely manner. At getting the required things done (homework, chores) quickly so that I could go play or do something fun. My mother would nag and plead and fly off the handle at me to just get it done; not get distracted.

What do I do to my distracted, procrastinating kids?? Ditto. Does it push my buttons to the point of flying off the handle? Yup. (How many times a day do I say, "JUST GET IT DONE!!! NOW!!! HURRY!!!) Lots. Am I still a distracted procrastinator as an adult? Yup. How can I expect my kids to display a behavior I do not model? I can't. How do I break the cycle? I don't know. I can never seem to find the self discipline I know I should have. Whenever I get anything (housework, especially) done, it's because I have a deadline or someone standing here making sure I get it done. (my poor, wonderful husband who has almost infinite patience with my domestic shortcomings.) Am I always glad to have done it afterwards? Absolutely. Why can't I motivate myself? Because I was never left alone to self- motivate as a child? How big of a cop- out is that?

All these things I've known and been aware of for years, but I still battle this same vicious cycle of anti- productive behavior. And scream at my kids for being like me.

This is probably my biggest windmill, if you will.

[jessica]

Moxie you are spot on, as always. I've learned a lot about myself from my toddler...and it certainly does bring up a lot of childhood issues ALL THE TIME. Lots of inner child stuff. It's very painful and hard to deal with, especially on top of caring for a child with separate needs at the same time.

Do men go through this too?

I do think that looking at your own issues is a vital part of sparing your kids some of the hurt you experenced.

[hedra]

enu, I still get angry over that for you, as well. It seems scarily similar to living in a totalitarian state - constant fear and hypervigilence required, just to stay basically safe RIGHT THIS SECOND, never sure what thing will cause the authorities to take notice and destroy everything and everyone you love. Post-traumatic stress disorder would be an expected response, IMHO. Which might be a direction you could explore, actually. Count me with angry and sad on that one, too.

Also, good point that sometimes the pain doesn't come from our parents, but from somewhere else in life. Certainly a big chunk of my pain came from other people.

[meggiemoo]

I'm one of 6 children, and we have a laundry list of muck passed down from our parents. My siblings' children and my child, for the most part, are all extremely sensitive. Some have genetic challenges such as Asperger's. My 3 sisters and I (my brothers don't really recognize the issues) are all in close contact and have vowed to not revisit the fear/violence of our childhoods on our children.

I feel like my childhood, coupled with my mother's sudden death when I was 18, stunted my emotional growth for quite a while. I didn't feel whole, really, until my 30s. If I can speed up that process for my son, I consider that to be a great gift. If he can know himself earlier than I did, he can get on with all of the joy of living.

[Suzie]

"The more I live as a parent, the more I think that it's only partially about parenting the child in front of you, but partially about healing yourself."

Wow -- that strikes a chord with me. My therapist said almost the exact same thing to me yesterday, when I was talking about how this learning to be a mom stuff (and coping/recovering from PPD) was helping me to discover more about myself than I had any idea would be the case. Not to go into specifics (though I know this is a safe place to -- just don't have enough time right now!), but this parenting thing is really eye-opening, if you allow it to be. Helping introduce a little person into the world, figuring out how you want to do that... it makes you really contemplate your own existence and experiences.

Goodness -- how very existential of me! HA.

[Geeks In Rome]

This is right on the money. My mom was nearly perfect in raising me, but made some pretty glaring mistakes with my much older siblings.

Ever since I was very young she made a point of telling me that parents are not perfect and that they are constantly tempted to repeat the same things that were done to them when they were growing up. She would tell me all the sad things her mom did to her and what mistakes she made with my siblings and she'd ask me to intervene (!) if I ever felt she was doing something similarly wrong in raising me!! Amazing.

She also made me comfortable in feeling I didn't have to agree with things she did. While I had to follow her rules and I was living with her parenting style, she encouraged me to learn from her past mistakes (which she detailed) in the hopes I would not make the same ones when I became an adult. The message was she wasn't an infallible god.

While I will have to think about the things I worry about with my kids, the unresolved issues that gnawed at me concerned men. Our father was an alcoholic and ran off when I was an infant. My mom never explained the situation to me until he showed up at our door when I was 10. That experience made me overly distraught every time a boyfriend dumped me. The whole abandonment thing rearing its ugly head in my face. I had to find a partner who would never leave me, who would be faithful and committed through thick and thin like my mom was to us. While I have found someone like that, I am not as freaked out about a potential "abandonment" as I would have been in the past.

The other thing it taught me was to be honest with the people you love. My mom was so shamed and embarassed by her situation that she had me live in ignorance and when he reappeared I was forced to lie and keep people from visiting us. I suffocated with this awful silence about the past and these secrets. She came clean about it all when she had to and because I was older so we were able to have adult conversations about it. But today I thrive where there is even brutal honesty.

I cannot imagine anything that would be so embarassing or shameful that I would keep it from my kids. But maybe they are too young and my secrets aren't scandalous enough yet. At least I do know -- thanks to my mom's objectivity and ability to analyze it all -- that I will not be doomed to make her same errors.

I think the first thing I should do is make a comprehensive list of the things I would never want to repeat. And secondly, teach my kids the same lesson she taught me: I'm not perfect, but I have every reason in the world to think you, my child, will become strong and smart enough to not do all the dumb, incompetant, or unfeeling things I may do to them.

[caro]

My oldest has had lots of trouble with ear infections and plugged ears. I was getting disproportionately frustrated with her not hearing me. It helped to figure out that this was a familiar situation: my dad (a great dad, really) "not hearing" me as a kid, not due to hearing problems but because he's a spacy, intensely-concentrating engineer type. Poor little plugged-ear girl having to deal with her mama's baggage...now that I realize why it pushes my buttons so much, it's easier to work with the frustration rather than get all out of whack about it.

[hedra]

Joy, we've been there, still somewhat doing that. One thing we discovered was that what we lacked wasn't 'discipline' it was 'skills'. And that our kids lacked the same skills. And that what skills would work for them might work for us, or might not.

And (BIG IMPORTANT PART HERE) it wasn't that the child was taking forever or being distracted about the task *necessarily* but that we didn't know if the child had a plan, or what plan they had to complete the task. The pain was all about not KNOWING, not about not DOING.

I also need a deadline to get things done. We have a housekeeper come in every two weeks in part because that forces us to do certain things regularly - like pick up the bionicle parts, puzzle bits, etc. Like prune out the excess toys and put them back in the toy library downstairs. Etc. (And bonus, the really scrungy jobs are handled by someone else, so there's less of the ick-dodging going on, too). WELL worth the expense for us.

Where was I? Oh, right. Anyway, when we discovered that it was a skills issue, we started trying to learn it, and teach it, we found it helped a lot with a lot of the compliance issue, too - because sometimes they are cooperating, and are intentional about complying, but because it is on their schedule or their cycle or after they're done with whatever they were doing, I'd freak (more or less). Now, B still doesn't like getting dressed in the morning, and will drag it out as long as possible if I 'sit on him' to get it done, meanwhile I'm getting more and more wound up. But if I just ask him if he has a plan for getting dressed, and he can articulate it (even if he changes it later), I can much more easily let it go. Plus, it's HIS plan, so if it isn't working, we can address it as 'your plan' instead of 'my rules', gives him ownership, and provides a place from which to work (rather than just conflict).

Anyway, that plus going way Montessori on the house helps a lot (changing the house so it enables them rather than making it harder for them to be able, doing observation and problem-solving, using conflict as a sign-post of a problem rather than a personal issue/reaction, simplifying and pruning spaces and materials, etc.). If they can get their own shoes and coats, they're more likely to do so without needing my help-aka-interference. Likewise with cups/bowls, snacks, drinks, etc. They do this stuff at school because it's set up so they can, they're expected to be able, and the expectations and issues are clear. Not that we can make the 'school child' show up at home constantly, but just a little bit more at home is a big help.

Don't know if you were actually looking for ideas, there - but I definitely know what you're talking about. And I'm still working on that issue, too. It's definitely easier thinking about it as a skills issue than a personal failing or permanent condition of my character/personality - I'm definitely more seat-of-the-pants, so I just have to find ways to USE the seat-of-the-pants thing instead of trying to change it. (BTW, one of the biggest helps to my self-esteem on this was my ILs - who have a huge house that is always tidy when we show up - admitting that the reason they have people over to visit at their house so much is because it MAKES them clean up. Without people there literally 3-5 days a week, the house would deteriorate rapidly. Panic cleaning before the guests arrive can be a life-skill, if you use it right! LOL!)

[chaser]

@Beth – on the anniversary of your mother’s death, you have an insight that your son’s increasing independence is hard on you? This is a guess, but from here, that looks like someone who is newly grieving the loss of her own mother… maybe part of you wants to repair that loss with your baby, by staying permanently very close to him.

My mom died too, very suddenly of cancer; it was not until I was 32, but she never got to meet my kids, and I never get to ask her anything about being a parent. I am not yet aware of specific ways in which this haunts my parenting experience but I am sure it does.

[rudyinparis]

Probably the biggest thing I got from our time with a therapist (DH and I) was how she explained that when our children reach an age that we had difficulty with, we are quite likely to re-process those issues. So for me, that means I'm going to prepare myself for the time when my girls are 13-15 as that was a waaaay bad time for me (unlike everyone else, who loved that age and was perfectly happy, right?) For my husband, his parents divorced when he was 3. We started experiencing issues with our marriage when --you guessed it--Eldest was 3. We have worked through the issues and I feel we've come out on the other side.

Talk about circles and wheels!

[pnuts mama]

oh, moxie, this is going to be one of those days where i'm stuck to this site, i can tell already.

i too can validate the idea that you work out quite a bit of your childhood issues as a parent. like beth and meggiemoo i lost my moms (biomom at 18 mos, momwhoraisedme at 22 yrs) and i know both losses influenced the way i approach my parenting. 1st loss with abandonment/identity issues my whole life (although not as much now) and 2nd loss with control(compliance-hedra, spot on)/anger issues (still reeeeeally trying to work on those).

the momwrm was my grandmas age when she agreed to take us yet never had the experience of being around kids at all- she was so angry and controlling and unhappy (i'm sure not always, but it seemed that way to little me) and since she died i have taken on so much of that- and i was never like that as a teenager/college age, very free-thinking, impulsive, etc. i have found that being able to process my forgiveness of her very human flaws in ways of raising me since pnuts birth has allowed me to heal that unresolved stuff with her. now if only i could figure out how to let go of the control/compliance/anger stuff that is, in many ways, deeply hurting my relationships right now.

i also can relate to the terror of growing up into an adult child of an alcoholic- while i never lived full time with my biodad after 18 mos, his disease has still greatly influenced the way i approached my relationships and abandonment issues as well. add on the fun of all that dysfunction in my generation of family members- good times.

@jessica- i think men are as influenced by the way they were raised but don't necessarily have the tools/insight women do to recognize when things come up. i can tell you that just by observing my husband and his brothers i can see them repeating so much of the anger/compliance that their dad had on them with their own relationships and kids. it's hard for me to gently suggest that my husband be aware when he's acting in a way that he hated in his dad when he was a kid. we're all a work in progress, i think.

[Kimberly C]

I darn near posted as anonymous on this, just because it's so near to me, and I believe that my childhood bordered on "abuse"- but now I am okay with my parents, I guess.

I was never allowed to show anger, ever. My brother and I never fought in my father's presence. I STILL have anger issues, and still try very hard to win their approval on stupid little things- and don't tell them things that they would disapprove of.

As kids, 100% of obedience was expected, all of the time. Both of us just got sneaky. We did things that were right just based on fear of reprimand, not because it was the right thing to do in the situation.

My husband gets to hear me regurgitate all of these past issues all the time and wonder about the effect it will have on our daughter, and future children. He tells me that I just need to parent her the way that I wished that I had been parented. I tell him that I don't know how. A kid that obeys blindly when an adult speaks is still what I expect, due to my own childhood, and regardless of how healthy such blind obedience really is.

[the milliner]

"And whenever you feel emotion out of proportion to the actual situation, that's telling you that you've hit on something in yourself that wasn't right."

Moxie, I think you've really decoded it with that sentence. That is the key I think into uncovering those deeper hidden issues that only surface when certain situations arise. Not just with a child, but in life in general.

Of course, sometimes it's easier said than done. When you're in the intense emotion at the time, sometimes it's hard to step back and look at it objectively. But I think part of the trick is to also be kind to yourself. To not feel bad or guilty for having an 'out of proportion' response to something. We all do it. Being kind to yourself in a situation like that makes you more open to exploring the why behind the reaction. And of course, with practise, it gets easier and easier.

Healing yourself is a lifelong journey I think. With true work it gets easier and seems to be required less frequently.

My most recent situation in discovering something new about myself was when we learned the sex of our baby. I had thought, up until that moment, that I was cool either way. A girl or a boy would bring unique challenges and situations. I knew my BF wanted a girl and I wanted a girl for him. But otherwise, no preference on my part.

When the doctor said 'well, there's no mistaking it...you've definitely got a boy there', I burst into tears (which I was simultaneously trying to hold back because I was embarrassed (and surprised) for reacting that way, instead of just being happy the baby was healthy.

Amazingly, my BF, who had expressed that he wanted a girl, was much more relaxed about the situation. He felt disappointed at first, but was much quicker to look at the positive side of having a boy & the ways in which it would be fun & enriching.

Needless to say, I spent at least the next 2 weeks exploring my thoughts around my intense reaction, trying to understand them. I consider myself very in touch with my emotions and thoughts, so it was surprising to explore new territory (instead of the same-old, same-old). I was trying hard not to be judgemental, and it was difficult at first. But once I got past that, I uncovered that most of my spontaneous reactions and thoughts were directly related to the fears or concerns I had about raising a child of either sex. Which, in the end has given me an opportunity to read more about those subjects or consider how I will handle them in the future, and to be conscious of my own biases that I bring to the table regarding the welfare and upbringing of my child.

Anyhow, I've gone on much too long already, but thanks for posting on this topic. It's a good reminder to not forget that we are all healing, to some degree, on a day to day basis.

[Joy]

Hedra- omg I think I have the same IL's. Big house, always spotless. And I know there's panic cleaning going on there. Thanks so much for the ideas. I've taken some strides toward the Montesorri house concept, but it's a struggle cause 1) we're all packrats and 2) I run a family daycare so we have l.o.t.s. of toys, which I'm loathe to get rid of, because everytime I pull something out of the basement they haven't seen in a while... well, you know. I just need to enforce the 'get something out, put something back' rule. I like the idea of 'your plan' vs. 'my rules'. And 'skills' vs. 'discipline'. Maybe we just need a little shift in outlook... thanks for your input.

oh, and Panic Cleaning Rules!! lol!

[Cynthia]

A little something like that happened to me yesterday. My son, 10 mo, was playing on my bed with my mom while I sat on the floor in the sun. I looked up as she whacked him on the hands repeatedly for reaching for her glasses. I didn't respond with words, I only got closer to prevent it from happening again.

I said to my sister and my husband, when relating the story, that I didn't say anything because I know he'll figure out pretty quickly that Grandma is the only person in his life that hits him. Since then it hasn't been sitting well with me that he'll have that same fear of being hit that I grew up with from both my parents. My sister suggested that next time it happens (and inevitably it will) I should smack HER hands and say "we don't hit people," as that "we don't..." was a staple of our childhood and the irony would be nice.

Reading Moxie's post has made me uncomfortable in that it has hit home. I am not sure how to work through it, as I'm currently just wishing she'd move back to Florida. And she's only lived here a week.

[AmyinMotown]

Wow, everybody--I was way busy and unable to comment yesterday, but was thinking about how I've been going through the same thing and how deeply sad I feel for my daughter that she is not our one and only anymore, that the attention will forever be divided. I know it's because of my own sibling relationship, especially since the genders and spacing is the same (I am the oldest and have a younger brother, just like my daughter). In my own case, my mom favored my brother (and still does) and I know that's why I am experiencing so much grief.

[caramama]

@Moxie - I have the same issue with my mom. Everything was "just fine" even when it was falling apart. I didn't want it to be fine. I wanted my anger, my depression, my hurt, my emotions acknowledged. It took a lot of personal work to get beyond that for myself. I hope I don't repeat it for my children, but I have learned new skills that I hope will help with that.

(Sorry, this is going to be long.)

My biggest issue lately is the whole issue with sleep training and letting baby cry at night. I'm blessed with a child who simply does not have self-soothing abilities. She is also not a good sleeper during regression periods. I will never ever to CIO, not because I think it's evil, as in fact I know it works fine for many people. But because I remember going through sleep issues around 4 or 5 or 6 (some time in there).

I wasn't
allowed to come out of my room, so I would call for my mom to come. My mom wouldn't answer, instead my dad will yell back to me to go to sleep. That my mom and he were trying to sleep. I should just go to sleep. As if it were that easy, which it wasn't for me. I would get so angry and feel so abandoned.

I know when kids are younger they won't remember the CIO. But when I hear my 13 month old crying in her crib for me or my husband or someone to come to her and give her the comfort she needs, I cannot just lie there. It all comes back to me, and I imagine her feeling abandoned inside and angry that she is not getting the comfort she wants and really seems to need.

Am I causing her delays in her ability to develop self-soothing skills? I don't know, but I don't care. I need to go to her.
I need to put myself out and be there for her. Because if I don't, I'm letting the 5-year-old me down.

Luckily, this is an issue I've known about and talked about with hubby (and later with therapist). Hubby and I both agreed we wouldn't let her CIO. He understands how it affects me and is on board with helping out 50/50 during the night so I don't get overwhelmed.

Lastly, I mentioned this to my mom in the early months. Her only response was that she didn't remember and that it sounded like something my father would do. As in he telling her respond and just wanting me to walk it off. (I good naturely call him the walk-it-off dad, and he loves that title.) So no resolution on that end, but again she likes to think everything is and was just fine. There is only so much I can do about that.

[swissmiss]

I've been seeing a therapist for my post-partum depression, and she said in one session that people often don't realize that a lot of the feelings surrounding/contributing to post-partum depression have nothing to do with the child in front of you but that the child triggers your own issues from your past. And yeah, as the unwanted second child I had major fears during this pregnancy that my second child would feel as cast aside as I did and that I wouldn't know how to parent two children. And the times that pain me about parenting two children are those times when both of them need me right! now! and I can only go to one, and I'm afraid one of them will feel abandoned. And I work on calming this fear every day.

[Allison]

Wow. My mind is blow. There is SO much to think about. I don't even have kids yet, but I can already see what mistakes I will make with them.

[Allison]

Wow.

My mind is blow!

[caramama]

I have some thoughts for other people, cause this topic has got me really thinking (even though I really should be doing other things!).

@enu - That just totally sucks. I'm so sorry for what you had to go through. Have you considered talking about all this with a therapist? I also agree that talking with your kids about it now-ish might help all involved.

@Beth - Therapy is one of the best things I've ever done for myself. I highly recommend it to everyone. Although it sounds like you are doing pretty well with figuring yourself out, so at least you've got a good start!

@Joy - Procrastination is one of my worst habits, so I hear ya. I hate it, yet I don't change it. As for motivating your kids, I highly recommend How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk (I'm always recommending this and Playful Parenting because they have already helped me think in new, and I think better, ways). I think some of the suggestions in there will help... I sure hope they will help me! I also love hedra's suggestions!

@rudyinparis - I don't know what you are talking about 13-15 was a great age! It was 11-18 that I had a problem with. ;-) Glad you and hubby worked through those issues.

@hedra - Can you speak to the "montesorri house" concept more? Is that cleaning is another activity for the kids to learn and have fun with? That kind of thing?

@Cynthia - I would caution against smacking your mom's hands. I worry that any sort of hitting smacking is actually showing that hitting is an appropriate response to some things, as opposed to something not done in the house at all. It's hard to model the behavior we want our children to have. For me, it has been not getting angry and spanking the dog, cause I don't believe in spanking so what am I doing? And we can't teach our little one to be gentle with the dog and no hitting and all of that when I myself will spank the dog. Anyway, I suggest having the really tough conversation with your mom about what is allowed with you child. Good luck, cause that's a toughie!

[Mar]

This is so interesting. I am certain I have some issues relating to anger/discipline that come out when my toddler doesn't listen to me (in dangerous situations in particular) but I need to think a lot more before I can formulate them as clearly as people have here.

I do have a PRACTICAL question though: once you have identified the trigger and the experience in your own childhood, what do you DO? Do you take that knowledge as an opportunity to relearn how to respond to the trigger situation? Or is there something else that I'm missing?

[hedra]

@Cynthia, as satisfying as it often feels in my imagination to do turnabouts on my mom for her bad moments/skills/approaches, there are real, useful, powerful ways to approach things like that. The number one way is to establish that YOU are the mother this time, and YOU get to make the rules about how YOUR child is treated. It's almost shocking the first time you step up to your own mother and say 'my child, my rules'. Or it was when I did it, anyway! :)

At the same time, it isn't always necessary to even be that harsh about it. Just educating them about why you intend to parent differently can be done - even without insinuating that they were terrible awful people who should never have had kids. My mom really beleived she was doing so many things right that I intentionally did differently - because to me, they hurt, no matter her intentions. BUT, I found I could honor her intentions by saying, 'we're really very similar parents - we want the same good things for our kids (self-discipline, success, health, etc.). And we're both willing to look to ourselves to find the way we feel is the best possible way to get that from our children. Plus, we're willing to look to what is the current best-understood methods for getting those results. The only difference between us really is that the world has changed, and we now know more than we used to know about the long-term results. You want to teach your grandchild to respect boundaries. Now we know that a) hitting doesn't teach this, it only teaches fear of the hitter and the usefulness of using fear on others themselves, and b) age-appropriate interventions serve the same purpose without involving negative consequences - they take a bit longer sometimes, but it's worth dodging the pervasive issues that at least some kids end up with later.' Ta-DA! You, me, same planet. My methods, your methods, utterly different. I can respect you, but you have to do things my way now. New world, new way, and I'm the mom now, I'm the only one here who gets to choose the rules.

Granted, it does cause some pain in the process of getting there, but remember that she doesn't know how to grandparent, she's just trying to recycle her parenting in the grandparent role. Give her some new rules and a new role, and see where it goes... it can be really good (my mom thought spanking us was just fine - hand smacks, etc., just fine. She's learned different, from me. I've been fortunate that she has the grace to say that I'm a better parent than she was - though we both acknowledge that the only reason I am is that she was the parent she was herself... leading the way for my being better than she).

Good luck working that out. So many of these issues are so deep and tangled and painful...

[caramama]

@Mar - Here is what I do:
1. Try to recognize the issue and it's triggers.
2. Talk about it with my husband so we can both recognize my issue and it's triggers.
3. Develop a plan of action at a time when it's not occuring. This is often by reading about the subject (for example, The No Cry Sleep Solution for one of my issues and the How To Talk and Playful Parenting books for another issue) and brainstorming preferred responses by myself and with my husband.
4. Ask my husband to remind me when the trigger happens. This includes laying out the ways in which I want to be reminded, which is very important to have agreed on before hand.
5. Then learn to recognize the triggers when they are happening (with help of hubby), and mentally think about what my preferred responses are.
6. Finally, practice again and again and again until my responses have truly changed and it becomes habit to respond in the ways I want.

Does that help?

[caramama]

@hedra - Can you talk to my Grandma for me? I try and I try, but they way you said all that to Cynthia was fantastic. Maybe she'll listen to you. ;-)

[Cynthia]

Thanks for the comments! I really didn't want to smack my mom, it seemed wrong on so many levels. At the same time, I don't believe in hitting, especially a tactile 10 mo old that's never been that close to a pair of glasses.

I am really going to have to think about how to direct her in her new role. I didn't think about how she's simply reprising her role as parent. Makes perfect sense. Now I'm running ideas for a "I want the same things as you" conversation in my mind instead of dreading the next visit. Thank you.

@caramama: I was nodding my head in agreement as I read your post. I am totally with you on the abandonment and anger. I tried CIO on my guy and it didn't work for either of us. I was a wreck and he wasn't sleeping. I'm trying now to comfort him while he's in the crib. Sitting next to him on the floor patting his back, then gradually moving away. I'm sure there's a name and a theory for it, but I'm just following my gut. He's learning how to go to sleep instead of just passing out from exhaustion, which is good for him. He's not screaming from abandonment, which is great for me. Good luck.

[Cynthia]

@ caramama - I was thinking of sending hedra's response by email to my mom if she doesn't respond to me. It was said so well!

[Lisa F.]

this is a huge topic for me, and I believe in parenting in general. I don't have time to read comments yet, but look forward to it.

the woman who couldn't hand her child's crying particularly resonated for me, my son's crying has always hit me super hard, I feel like my ears/head are going to explode & that I'm going to lose my mind. & like that women I would do anything to stop it. right now (age 2.75) if he has a nap, he has horrible wake ups & sometimes screams, cries, demands to be carried around for up to an hour. I lose it, I've ended up screaming at him, bawling uncontrollably, locking him in his room because I'm afraid I'll get rough w/him. he seems to be blowing off his naps & while it's rough to not have the break, it's a relief to not deal w/screaming.

Part of this is health stuff for me, it stresses me out horribly at the time my reserves are depressed in the afternoon, it's my most fatigued, non-creative, crappy feeling time of day. But it's more than that, WHY does it stress me so awfully? it's been this way since he was born, and I've wondered if it's my perfectionism, I've always received most of my self esteem from whatever job I've had, and it seems sometimes like the only feedback I get from this job is that I suck at it, and if I was doing things right he wouldn't be crying (HA!)

someone told me, well Lisa, that's what babies do, cry all the time! in this incredulous tone. and I was like, kill me now, I can't TAKE it.

I read a book, Parenting From the Inside Out, I think, which was really interesting, some really science-y parts, and reallife scenarios from lives of authors, an MD & RN. The MD had a weird experience when his first son was born, would freak out w/all these physical stress symtoms when his son cried. eventually he had a flashback to his residency in the NICU dealing w/very very sick little babies, and he'd have to draw blood & they'd scream & scream horribly. he & his colleagues never talked about it, or processed it in any way, and he'd never been around little babies until his son before so nothing had triggered it until he was re-exposed to crying infant.

Now, when I take that, and look back at my life, I can piece together some things that may have contributed. I was firstborn & heard recently from my mom that she had to leave the house when I would cry w/what doctor thought were night terrors, and they left me to cry it out.

AND when I was almost 3 (my son's age now) my little sister was born. was very ill for ages, sick on the cows milk formula, from what I gather constantly screaming.

When I was 16 or so, I babysat for an infant, and I remember him waking up screaming & being so full of rage at me, I tried everything & couldn't calm him down, it seemed like my presence made it worse, he probably just wanted his mom. I ended up putting him back in his crib & sitting outside his door bawling myself.

I knew that parenting would kick my ass because of these reasons. It does give me the oppportunity to heal myself, by giving my son what I didn't get but at the same time there's so much grief.

And I had heard/read that you as a parent will often have a difficult time with your child & with the stage at which YOU had the most difficult time as a child.
sigh.
so it's going to be a loonnnng road. transformative for sure, just daunting this week.

[hedra]

@Amyinmotown, oh, yeah, the favoritism thing! My little (half) brother was the golden child. Worse, he actually was a gem of a child, sweet natured, open, lovely. DAMMIT. He also was granted insane amounts of power, including the ability to recind the punishments of his siblings just by pleading our case. I hated that. I let him do it, and I hated that I had to turn to someone else when my own argument should have been weight enough. It also crippled him in some subtle ways for a very long time, and caused immense damage to our relationship. He, like so many of us, only really dealt with that after he had a child, I think - or maybe he dealt with it sooner, but I only saw it in him after he had a child... or maybe it was healed by how I handled him as he was becoming a father, I don't know - I haven't asked. Too sore a point, and since it's not showing now... not bringing it up. (I'm snorting to myself because so many of everyone's issues here I'm going 'oh, me, too! yeah, that one! Oh, and that one, and that one and ...'.) Anyway, the non-favoritism thing is one of the things I've really struggled with, but seem to have acheived a healthy balance on. It helped that I realized and accepted that at some ages and stages, some of my kids are easier to be with than other ages and stages. And that there are different things that I related to, both positive and negative, with each child. The places that are most like me are the most challenging, even if they're good - I over-identify, and get in my own way as well as theirs. (Fortunately, a very good and very brutally honest teacher of G's point blank told me to stop getting my own issues in G's way. Um. Horrifying moment, but really really right.) I'm still always watchful to see if I'm favoring one over the other, and use the Siblings without Rivalry wording as much as I can. I think it will be a bigger issue with M and R, as twins, than with the others - especially as they are both gorgeous, smart, creative creatures, in totally different ways. Just the plain physical factors are so different - M looks stunning in classic-to-elegant styles, everything from mary janes and tights to ... well, burlap bags would look great on her, but classic is just shockingly attractive. And R, who is stocky and solid like her brothers (at least how they start), looks rather odd in the same attire. She's much better in some of the slightly conservative styles, or the very dramatic. Her coloring and hair is suited to drama (dark skin, dark eyes, dark curls), and her frame suited to different cuts - and unfortunately, for now, only some styles really suit her. I'm already hyper aware that M is always striking, and R is sometimes striking, and sometimes looks like a bullfrog in a tutu - a beautiful bullfrog, but still, out of place in some outfits. How do I deal with that? I always thought as a child that I was ugly, and my sisters beautiful. And yet I can't find myself happy about suppressing positive note of M's fashion sense, either - knowing what works for each of us is a help (IMHO) in establishing our own sense of style. At the same time, I can't shake the feeling that I'm setting up a trap for them somewhere there... I think I need to talk to my SIL about it, actually. Because her daughters have a similar issue (also very close in age), where one was always 'media-pretty', slim, and elegant in form and style, and the other 'striking', sturdy, and robust. They're both grown, now, and the more 'sturdy' of the two has developed a refined sense of her look that is just heart-stoppingly beautiful. And they don't have any issues with each other on looks (the other became a model for a while). I suspect she might have some observations and ideas for me... hmm.

Oy. Yammering. Anyway, another 'yep, me, too!' on that one.

@caramama, maybe I should send you the presentation we're doing on Montessori at Home (for the kids' montessori school). Warning, it's long! The general gist, though, is that the Montessori Method is about how you think about the situations, as well as the structure. You can read a lot of stuff on 'the prepared environment' online (basically, setting up the world so your child can be 'able' without assistance or lack of safety - but also so the spaces are beautiful, simple, stimulating but not overwhelming, not over-stuffed, etc.). But beyond that, there's a pattern in the Montessori method, starting from when Maria Montessori first began her Children's House project, that involves the scientific method (and a strong systems-orientation) applied to the environment of the child. So, identify expectations, observe for data, compare results to expectations, and problem-solve. Repeat. Repeat repeat repeat. Understand that the child is not a separate unit, but integrated in home, school, family, by age relationships (up, down, same age), by social function, ability, place, etc. Use those structures - allow for the interactions, set them up to understand how to lead, how (and when) to follow, how to observe and problem-solve themselves. Watch for when they're asking for a change without asking - when they put their hand on the wall going up the stairs, they're communicating a need. We put up a second hand-rail (lower) on the stairs so they could feel able (and I could feel less paranoid!). We're always aiming for being NOT needed - just like a Montessori teacher is always aiming to teach SO THAT the teacher is no longer necessary. How can I get my child to NOT need help with this? How do I find where they feel obstructed, prevented, less-able? How do I solve those issues?

One of the fabo 'rethinks' for applying Montessori at home is actually from the book "Parent Effectiveness Training" - but it applies perfectly. Here's the scenario:

Picture a beloved elder relative (mom, aunt, grandfather, uncle, whatever)... you've just been informed that they've been in an accident, and have sustained injuries that affect both physical and cognitive function. Prognosis is good - they're expected to make a FULL recovery. BUT it will take a while, maybe even years. And to top it off, they're coming to live with you.

NOW: How do you address this? How do you change your home? Do you create a space just for them? Do you move things, add safety equipment, make it possible for them to get around without trouble in your house? Would you get them a chair that they could safely get into and out of, and that was comfortable for their particular disability? How would you change things in each room of the house?

And how would you treat them? If they were struggling to tie their shoes, newly unable to perform this task, and you had to get them to an appointment, how would you react? Would you yell, push their hands aside and tie the shoes for them, stand there and grouse under your breath? Would you encourage them so much that they felt humiliated by the help and observation? Would you, in essence, treat them as we commonly treat our children in this culture? What about disagreements - say it was both your parents in this situation, and they had a fight at the dinner table, their impaired function making them less aware of how distressing it was for you? Would you respond as you would to a sibling spat?

Looking through that lens helps a LOT for figuring out where the problem really is, and how to solve it. If I was always running late because I underestimated the injured adult's ability to do things at a certain rate, I'd adjust the schedule and expectations, problem-solve ways to streamline the process, get other things ready at other times so they were at hand when we could go, etc. And so... that's what we do. Assume they're only temporarily unable to function at an adult level, and knowing that they WILL (provided we're lucky) reach adulthood and that adult function... and then see what answers come up. They're usually more respectful and kind, IME. They place the problem outside the child, and into the space where we can deal with them separately as problems. The emotional reaction, crisis, or upset becomes only a sign post that something needs to be solved. Nothing personal, just an indicator that a problem exists.

Anyway, that's kind of the gist of the concept. There are a million ways to implement it, and they'll differ for different families and kids, different environments, preferences, etc.

Sorry, long again... Sigh.

[Shandra]

Thanks so much for this post and the site. Days like this make me so glad to be a part of this corner. I'm posting before I read anyone else's comments.

I have more issues than you can shake a stick at but a lot of them I knew about before I started parenting. The big one that I'm struggling with now though is the whole working mother gig. My mother stayed home with my sister and I and the results for her and the pressure on us was tremendous.

For myself I guess I thought that things would become clear. Now I've done SAHM, PT WAHM, and WOHM and I just haven't found that I feel good about it yet. I get in absolute panics that I am neglecting work, or neglecting my son. But when I was SAHM and WAHM I got into panics too, etc. etc. I always feel like I have made the wrong choice.

So, that's mine. :) Back in a bit to read and respond to others.

[anonThisTime]

This is an amazing topic. I haven't had time to read all of the posts, but I will definitely be back later to take a closer look!

I have a HUGE issue with asking anyone for help. I want to do everything on my own, and I always have. In high school, I was a straight-A student, but I almost failed an advanced math class because I couldn't ask anyone for help. As an adult I struggle daily with this issue. When I feel overwhelmed because of all the things I need to take care of (kids, job, husband, housework, grocery shopping, etc.), I get stressed out and grouchy instead of asking anyone to help me.

This issue came very close to costing me my marriage. When my first child was born, I felt the need to stay on top of everything. Looking back, I realize I had a touch of PPD. Add that to being overtired and feeling tremendous stress from trying to be the Super-Mom I thought I was supposed to be, and you have a recipe for disaster. I was not an easy person to live with -- I began resenting my husband for not seeing what needed to be done and just doing it, but I could not bring myself to ask him to do anything to help me. He finally sat me down and told me things needed to change. He felt I wasn't the same person he married, and we were in trouble. It was quite a wake-up call. We talked things out, came up with a plan for him to take on some of the household duties, and things got better.

With my second child, I had to admit to myself that everyone needs help sometimes, and I forced myself to ask for what I needed. But even as I type this, I have a long list of things that need doing running through my head, and I know that I will probably try to do them all rather than ask my husband to help out.

Why is it SO HARD for me to ask for help? Am I insecure? Afraid that asking for help is a sign of weakness? I am the oldest of four children -- is this some typical first-born trait? Some of it may stem from communication issues in my family -- my parents, sisters, and I don't like to talk about our problems, and we all have trouble asking for help from each other. Growing up, I was afraid to go to my parents with problems, probably because I didn't want them to be disappointed in me. I can't figure out what they might have said or done that would make me so afraid to disappoint them.

I really hope that this is not something I pass on to my children. I want them to be able to come to me and their dad with problems. They are still young (a preschooler and a toddler), and right now they are not afraid to ask for help with anything. I hope that by being understanding and always ready to give them help now I can lay the groundwork that will keep us close as they get older.

One thing that really worries me is that my preschooler son already says, "Don't tell Daddy I [had an accident/spilled my drink/hit my sister...]." Is this normal preschooler behavior?

Sorry for the extra-long post! I guess this is something that weighs heavily on my mind.

[zenjen]

Thank you again Moxie for such a wonderful post.

I have lots of little moments in the past 16 months that have made me take a step back and reflect on my childhood, my growth, the things I learned in therapy, etc.

For me, one of the big "ah-ha" moments happened when my mother was visiting. She noted how calm I was with my baby son (though I certainly didn't *feel* calm, I was trying to *act* calm) amidst food tantrums and a big sleep/nap regression. My mom noted that many women in her generation would have spanked my son for a certain behavior or that my father (who was an alcoholic) would have spanked me. Hmmmmm. I just looked at my mom for a moment but didn't ask for specifics (I learned that asking usually just ended up hurting me more).

I guess that moment helped me realize that things can be different. I get so frustrated sometimes but I try to remember that I can be different and find a new way to let out my frustration (exercise, time alone, chatting with friends) than being physical with my child. I also finally started using the "I see you are angry/frustrated" conversation with my son. He's only 16 months old but I think he understands somewhat that I am trying to acknowledge the rough time he is having when he throws a frustration tantrum.

@hedra..wow, that "rethink" is fantastic and really affected me. I went through a little bit of that when my father went into rehab after suffering a blood clot in his liver due his alcoholism. I adjusted me attitude about how I should treat him and it was an eye opening exercise. thanks!

[Mar]

Caramama, thank you -- that does help. The talking it through with husband seems key to me.

[zenjen]

Hmmm..I walked away and then realized that I am currently going through an health issue right now that might be bothering me because of childhood stuff.

At my son's 15 month appt. I was told he was now "failure to thrive" when he had been the 50th, then 25th, then 5th percentile for weight. The doctor wants to do a load of bloodwork and refer us on to a pediatric GE. I even emailed Moxie about this.

I wonder if my sleepless nights right now have a lot to do with me processing this in light of my childhood. I was a skinny child and my mom was always trying to stuff me full of food I didn't want (especially meat, which I hated until I was an adult). My paternal grandmother was the same way with me and would offer foods I hadn't eaten a previous meal to me again and again (like liver for breakfast, yuck!). I am reluctant to do the bloodwork, reluctant to push the food hard because of my own experiences being forced to eat. I became quite the overeater as a teenager and still struggle with understanding when I am really hungry.

I have to figure out how to navigate this issue right now without it getting so tangled up with my own stuff. I do want what is best for my son and will do the bloodwork just to rule out the possibility of something metabolic...but still, pushing food is hard for me to do especially since I think he's a great eater to begin with.

[Amanda]

I see a lot of my personality and temper in my 19 month old son and frankly, it kinda scares me. If he can't get something on the first try he's screaming and throwing things. I have to work really hard with him to sit down, calm down, and try again and explain that it's okay to not be able to get things right on the first try. Why can I not take this advice myself?

I too, seem incapable of asking anyone for help (which leads to my getting angry because I'm trying to do everything perfectly the first time which is just impossible). I know it has a lot to do with my mom and my father and I have been working in therapy for years to break out of my pattern of depression.

I just hope my son won't grow into me and my personality, it's so self-destructive, and I wouldn't want that for him.

I think it's really hard to see him get so angry and frustrated, and know that he's so beautiful and smart (because you know, I'm his mama!) and he could do such amazing things - how do I break out of myself and my personality to foster his potential?

[ACJ]

Lord. It is so good to be thoughtful in this direction, isn't it? I have said several times to other parents, "We are parenting for our own issues" only to be met with blank stares from people who truly believe that they are parenting in response to their children's issues and needs. And of course we are if we are halfway healthy adults, but our entire lens through which we observe those needs and issues has been shaped through our own growing up, hasn't it?

There is some freedom for me in knowing deep in my heart that screwing up is not only inevitable, but probably necessary - who had the compost metaphor going? That said, one of my issues is not being good at things, so failing is ludicrously upsetting for me. As to how that will impact my mothering when T. isn't good at something, I guess we just get to wait and see. The poster who wrote about confessing this to your spouse and building solutions is right on - I don't know a higher purpose in marriage than partnering with your beloved to walk through the mucky parts together, carrying the other when it's just too much.

And there is a great book for men on this topic: "Becoming the Kind Father" that my husband, a non-reader, loved. It was about replacing the angry, critical dad's voice in his head with the kind father he craved. If he doesn't figure out how to do that, the father's voice he inherited could be the one he speaks to his own children with, and for some dads like SJ, that is really bad news and there is lots of motivation to figure it out.

I am pretty busy not taking a pregnancy test this week and I wonder now, what that's about. I didn't know I had sibling issues but maybe there is something there to explore. For this morning though, I'll stick with my "Always do well" issue, and maybe "Act like you're okay" brought on my amazing, very honest with her feelings mother. And you thought that was a good thing. Ha.

Oh, I love this thread, love the honesty, love the thinking, love the self-knowledge and mostly love the still figuring it out-ness of this group of parents.

Blessed.

[caramama]

I also relate to SO MANY of these. Maybe feeling screwed up is actually normal.

@hedra - THANKS! That was an awesome explanation! I would love if you sent me the presentation (caramamamia at gmail dot com). I just did a tour of a Montessorri school, and I'm completely in love with it. Too bad I have to wait until my little one is 2 to send her there, and also too bad it's so expensive!

@anonThisTime - I also have problems asking for help, even when I desparately need it. I have had to use the method I posted up (the numbered comment I made) for identifying the triggers and changing my response with the help from husband and therapist. It's just not easy. You make a good point, and for me it probably is that my mom has trouble asking for help or saying when things are wrong. I'm still working on this, as my husband will tell you.

@Mar - It's so hard to do alone. Having someone who you are close to help out is key, for me at least. Of course, you have to be able to ask for the help, and that's another issue. ;-)

@zenjen - That must be really rough to deal with. I really feel for you. Is/was your baby breastfed, and if so, is the doctor using the WHO growth charts which are more accurate for breastfed babies? Also, I recommend Child of Mine: Feeding with Care and Love (or something like that) by Elyn Slattery (I'm butchering her name, too, but I don't have time to look it up). I found that she helped me relax about the eating issues in so many ways. She says the more you push the issue, the bigger deal it becomes, and the worse the problem can get. I really think she's worth a read.

[hedra]

@Mar, what caramama described is how we work fairly automatically at this point. Years of working through triggers before we even had kids really set that up. And yes, I absolutely MUST have a partner helping spot me on this process. I still tend to get snappish when I've been caught (in the sense of 'saved from falling'), because it feels like I've been caught (in the sense of 'being bad'). Shame issue in there somewhere.

@anonThisTime, there are phases where toddlers/preschoolers are particularly prone to shame issues. That's a normal developmental phase. However, there are better and worse ways of handling it. One of the things I had to learn (and still struggle with as a boundary issue sometimes) is to address issues as resolved if they're mentioned later. I *try* (and sometimes even succeed) at providing the information in a positive light, so that the incident in question can be praised for the resolution. So it ends up being, 'I was really proud of M today - she hit R, but then she was really sorry and worked with R to help her feel better.' (instead of 'M is still hitting R', or whatever) And there are times when it really isn't necessary to mention it at all. I have handled the 'I don't want you to tell them' issue with asking them before I report things to the other parent (or grandparent, etc.) - and this ends up being true for both positive and negative incidents. It's more of an issue a bit later (3+?) - I ask them if it is okay to tell DH about how well they handled this or that, etc. Often, it is okay, but they don't want to be right there while I say it. Or they want to say it themselves. And sometimes they don't want me to report at all.

I also learned after the oldest started school that there are limits on double-handling events - if it was handled by the teacher, I should not also handle it, then mention it to DH and have him handle it, etc. Even a raised eyebrow or a slight increase in tension around the eyes is read as HUGE by my kids. They care about whether they disappoint me. I can crush them more with a silent look than seems at all reasonable or fair.

As for asking for help, I'm seriously starting to sound like a broken record here - me too! I was in grad school, seriously struggling with how to do what I needed to do, and ... finally, when I was really feeling like I was going to fail (early thesis, at this point), I asked my advisor for help, and she said 'seriously, you should know how to do that stuff already!' and then didn't offer any ideas or help (later, when I totally screwed something up, she responded with the maddening, 'if you didn't understand, why didn't you ask for help?' ARGH!). I figured out a little of the issue with asking for help then - but only a little. I was afraid of feeling stupid or talentless. I was used to getting by on talent, not skill, so asking for help was an admission that I *was not smart* rather than an admission that I lacked a specific skill. It was personal, and scary. Later, I discovered that asking for help was layered with all sorts of issues, starting from when my parents divorced, followed by an abuser telling me that if I told (which I interpreted as 'asking for help') I'd never be able to get married and I'd be lonely my whole life, followed by realizing that if I asked my mom for help she would HELP - really genuinely help, and I was certain (being all of 7 or 8 or so at that point) that if I tried to face and deal with what I'd been through, I would die - it would shatter me beyond the capacity to live. So, no help. MUST do it myself, because getting help meant death, pretty much. Tuck in ANY instance of not being good enough for whatever situation, and I ended up believing that I could not ask, that I didn't deserve help, and (love this one), that if I got help, I could no longer claim pride in my accomplishment - it was not mine if ANY assistance was given. Add in a belief that if something was easy it wasn't worth doing, a bit of pride in my ability to pull my life out of a catastrophic hole (rescue myself, pretty much), and my need for praise for pulling off the near-impossible... um. Yeah. Help? I DON'T NEED HELP. Which meant that I cried through every blessed feeding for G for 5 1/2 weeks straight, because it hurt so bad. And I was supposed to do this myself. JUST me. I could scratch 'successful mom' off my list of accomplishments if I asked for help, after all. OY!

Therapy helped. And, well, having twins kicked the last of that out of me. Thankfully. It's much nicer being able to ask without having my insides lock up. It still feels strange, sometimes - and I probably don't ask as much as I should, even now. Better, though. And now I can model it a bit for the kids, too. It's easier for me to ask THEM for help, accomplishing my own goals. (Now, whether they're learning that as well as I'd like, I don't know! I suspect not. A work in progress...)

And an apology in general for having so many posts today. I feel like a Moxie hog, but really, this is helpful for me - I often don't know what is going on until I write it. So, I'm spotting some areas for intentional focus/mindfulness here... thanks!

[caramama]

Hmmm, I feel like I'm totally in everyone's business. I'm sorry if I'm being to butt-in-sky.

[Julie]

This plays out for me more in my marriage right now than it does in my parenting....parents divorced when I was 5, dad married a bitch (really, we all think now a mentally ill woman) mom married a great guy who had a midlife crisis and left for a time when I was in high school but came back later and all is well with them and has been for a long time. Lost my dad to the bitch for 15 years before he finally came to his senses and left her to marry a wonderful lady. Though they live in another state so it's more an aquaintance relationship than a parenting one.

Which basically translates to: divorce is always on the table. It is my go-to solution. I am constantly questioning whether I love my husband enough, whether I loved him at all, if I picked the right guy...even though really intellectually I think he is the best person for me to be married to. When we argue, I immediately start thinking "Okay, how are we going to split up our stuff, how will it work financially, will we be able to co-parent okay?" I think about logistics because *that is what I saw and learned from my parents*. On more than one occassion. Getting hard? Answer: take off. Arguing? Answer: I don't need this shit.

Only through therapy have I realized that hey...it's okay to want to take off sometimes, that doesn't mean I am going to, or even that I really want to. It's given me permission to not always be happy in my marriage but that it is *okay* to not be happy and that doesn't mean I will always be unhappy. But ya, I'm constantly hedging my bets....because in my experience, it doesn't really last. Despite wanting to work it out with my husband, wanting to be with him, have more children with him, thinking we created the most amazing kid that ever walked the face of the earth.....it's still always there in the back of my head. And I'm beginning to accept that and be okay with that and not see it as something scary but just something from my past, like a shard of glass embedded in my brain that is just there to live with and work around. That it has more to do with my family-of-origin than it does with my marriage. They are separate, and the outcomes both of my parents experienced do not necessarily make them my outcome.

I think the most important thing is being honest with myself in my mind and heart, but also being honest with others in my life. To not be afraid to say the truth out loud for fear of making it a reality. Saying it aloud only makes it *my truth*, not my future, and it actually lessens its power over me.

[stacy]

Totally. All of it. This feels like a really productive post.

My maternal grandmother was an alcoholic, and a raging bitch to boot. My mother tried so hard to break her unhealthy patterns - the situation she grew up in was truly chaotic and vile. She was pretty successful when I was young, but once I grew up, Mom fell into all the same bad habits at her own mother. She's now a raging bitch and an alcoholic, and has almost no relationship with her grandkids because of it.

I spend a lot of time freaking out over this. I don't want to follow the maternal line! But my own mother didn't want to, either, and it still caught up with her eventually. So many of my decisions go back to that. What would my Mom do? Because I've got to do ANYTHING except what she would do! I'm not even aware of it most of the time. Which is probably for the best, because when I do think of it, I get paralyzed. After all, it is legitimately, logically a good thing if I do manage to break from the family traditions here. But it is not a good thing to make all your decisions based on not-being-your-mother.

I don't know where to draw the line, so I freeze up and eat too much and see my face break out, like I'm devouring myself from the inside.

[Kellie]

Thank you, Moxie, for yet again posting just ahead of the curve of where I am with whatever issue is happening. I have read so much here, nodding along, finding relief that It's Not Only Me.

I'm a grad student, and once a week, on Peanut's day home from daycare, my MIL visits so I can go to the library. Hubby puts Peanut to bed, and I get home late. Last night, I went up for a mid-night diaper change, and discovered that MIL had painted Peanut's finger- and toenails a bright red! (Peanut is just over 21 months old!). I was furious, and couldn't believe she would put polish on such a young child without asking me first.

As part of the looooong conversation about all of this in the middle of the night, it becomes clear that a huge part of my reaction is a control issue, with a straight line back to my mother and how I was raised. Granted, I think the polish is atrocious for other reasons, but the *degree* of my outrage comes from my childhood.

A fun convo with MIL coming up, and I will definitely use some of the suggestions on "educating grandma" from above.