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Comments

laura

Hmmm.... Yes, I would want to know because I think eventually the child would pick up on the nastiness she is modeling. But would I possibly shoot the messenger? Yeah, maybe, since we all need to admit that defensiveness of one's child care choices is a really tender hot spot!

Heather

Absolutely I would want to know. Our children learn through example. If my child's babysitter/caregiver was treating people in a manner I find mean or nasty... I do not want them watching my child.

In the case of nanny/babysitter/caregiver I think parents should find someone who has the same morals/values as the parents. They should be an extension of you.

My daughter is in a daycare center. So, no, I cannot verify that all the teachers she has will have the same values as mine. However they are held to the standard of the center which is respect, kindness, etc.

Shannon

Well, I think in the situation you presented, Moxie, the babysitter's demeanor is relevant because she is modeling rude and disrespectful behavior in front of her charge. I still don't know if I would tell the parent, though, unless she was a very close friend. A casual acquaintance might not take you seriously.

As a side note, I want to thank all of you for the support and advice you gave me yesterday. It really helps to know that the people of this online community are there for me when I need it.

Amanda

I would want to know. She's modeling, and if she's mean to other people, she is probably also going to be mean to my kids at some point.

Plus, I'm just nosy like that :-)

shirky

to me this is simple, i don't want jerks around.

Colleen

This story makes me sad for the sitter who doesn't known that everyone thinks she's nasty. Nobody wants to be rejected by their tribe.

m

I would want to know. If she's being mean to everyone else, why wouldn't she be mean to your child, too?

Maureen

I would want to know, because I disagree that this behavior would not harm my child. Children are little sponges, and if my child is spending any amount of time with someone who is routinely mean to others, he'll learn how to be mean to others.

But I also agree that I would probably shoot the messenger, because who wants to hear news like that?

Julie

This is a two-part dilemma.....morally, what do people think is appropriate behavior to model in front of children, but also a boundary issue for Moxie. Because unless this babysitter is working for a close friend of hers, where is the line for intervention? My husband and I argue about this a lot. He feels that it is his duty as a citizen to intervene when he sees a wrong regardless of whether he knows the participants or not. And I'm not talking about cases where someone is getting hurt, but really just anything. Having grown up in the midwest and now living in CA, he is appalled at some of the selfish behavior here in the LA area. Myself, having grown up in this area, I have more of a mind-your-own-business mentality unless there is a danger to another person. Or standing up for myself, which might involve my middle finger and/or inappropriate expletives. But only from the safety of my car, and only if the other person can't see me because I don't like confrontation. Hee hee.

So I guess it depends on a lot of factors. Morally I think this babysitter should not be in charge of children if she can't model appropriate behavior toward other people in her community. I think that is an integral part of any childcare/teaching job. The kid *will* pick up on it and have a hard time distinguishing between what is socially acceptable and what is not. The fact that the kid is demanding El C to hand over his toys shows he's already on his way to being confused about what is appropriate. That his babysitter is there backing him up with nasty behavior is not teaching him anything of value and is really leading him in the wrong direction. I feel sorry for this kid, who is a nice kid learning some really negative social behaviors. I also feel sorry for the babysitter. No one wakes up saying, "I'm going to have fun being a bitch to other adults and a bully to little kids today!!!" There are always other factors contributing to that kind of behavior, whether they are medical or circumstantial/stress-related or a combination. So really, it sucks to be her regarless of how wrong her behavior is.

My favorite saying is "Be kind. For everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." can't remember who said it.

But is it Moxie's job to tell the kid's parents? If it were me, I'd probably just avoid the situation. Though I'm not sure that's the right answer, sadly that's probably what I would do and I'm not proud of that. However I'm not sure I would be able to deliver the information to the parents in a way that was kind and patient and loving.

My advice would be to ask Hedra what to do or say and then do that.

:)

Michelle

I would definitely want to know and this possibility (someone being a bad example for my kids) is one of the hundreds of reasons I am uncomfortable hiring someone I really don't know to take care of my kids.

hedra

I would want to know.*

* But it would also help to a) know that the issue had been addressed with the individual by the witnessing party, and b) feel that I was being offered the observation without judgement, out of concern, and with consideration for the difficult position it would place me in. Especially if, say, the babysitter is a relative. Or if they're the only one my kid seems to tolerate. Or if they're an old friend of the family. Etc.

The 'being kind' thing applies to the parents involved, as well as the babysitter in question. It would be kind to address it with her before taking it to the parents. Maybe not USEFUL, but kind.

I don't stay out of stuff, but I stay very peripheral when I have to get into it. Light touch. Unless it is a safety issue directly, anyway.

JB

My daughter's day care teacher doesn't seem to like her job. She's never in the classroom, any time of day I arrive -- always hanging out in the hallway, chatting in the office, in the baby room getting her "baby fix." She doesn't seem to like the kids, except in a detached, slightly sarcastic way. And I am very, very uncomfortable with that, with what she's modeling, even though she is neither nasty (that I know of) nor unsafe. So if my kid's caregiver were nasty to others? Yes. I'd want to know, and to address the situation.

It is hard to know how to tell someone, though. No advice on that. I am pretty conflict-avoidant, except when it comes to my own kids.

pnuts mama

depending on how well i knew the kids mom, i'd probably say something. and i'd want to know if my sitter is a wacky biotch. but, as someone who isn't sleep walking through life, wouldn't i already have at least a clue?

*however* i would ALSO probably say something to the sitter myself if she was addressing my child (or telling her kid to tell my kid something) in a way that i felt was inappropriate- i don't want my kid to feel as though her mom rolls over when we're in a situation like that. oftentimes, people like that just need someone to stand up to them in a situation like that- bullying is not right, not by adults or by children, and most times bullies don't ever have anyone stand up to them and call their behavior into question.

which lends itself to the question of having a moral standard for employment- i'm seeing this also as more of a values question- what is important for me as an employer for a caretaker of my child? something like this (for me) is very important- i DO NOT want my child having a caretaker who is modeling such poor behavior for her. period. i really believe that as a society we have allowed too much for the individual at the expense of the community at large.

for me morals is more lifestyle choices (personal things that in this case would never cross my kids radar) and i would agree, in those cases, different strokes for different folks.

caramama

I do think it is harmful to the child, for the same reasons others have stated (bad role model and might be nasty to the child when others aren't around).

I would want to know, but as others have said I would want it stated carefully and objectively. I think the best way to do this is to give concrete examples and use a tone that is detached and careful.

I think it is important to be there for each other, since it takes a village and all that. Don't we all wonder what happens when we aren't around our kids? Don't we all wonder if the caregiver we have is treating them right and modeling good behavior themselves? How else are we ever going to know if no one tells us?

I'm feeling very strongly about communication now that I finally read How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk, which I HIGHLY HIGHLY SUPER HIGHLY recommend for everyone!!!

Amy

I don't really see this as any different than having a mean teacher. My kids were at a daycare that had a big bru-ha-ha and the other teachers told some fellow parents that the lead teacher frequently yelled at the kids. I asked my kids about it, and both denied ever being yelled at, and to see her with my kids you could tell she really loved them. But even if my own kids weren't being yelled at or being made uncomfortable, if there was nastiness going on, I'd want to know about it. I ended up taking them out of the school once I established that there did seem to be increasing negativity (even though, as I said, it was not directed at my children). On the flip side, I was told the next year by a fellow parent that my son's kindergarten teacher sometimes yelled at the kids. And this didn't phase my one bit b/c, you know, if I had to spend all day with 20+ 5-6 year olds, I'd yell some too! So, I guess the environment played a role in my reaction to it all... I expect a "care-giver" to be caring, but a "teacher" to be a disciplinarian. (And I'm not saying that a teacher can't be caring... so don't flame me... but a room full of kindergarteners need to accomplish different things during the day than a room full of three year olds, so I'll accept a different approach on the teacher's part.)

All of this is by way of saying... I'd want to know.

hush

Guess I am in the minority opinion here - I would not want to know. Ignorance is bliss, and my paranoid imagination would run wild unnecessarily. The math I'm working with goes something like this: mommy guilt for WOH + lack of meaningful childcare choices + lack of abuse/neglect towards my child = me feeling awful about situation but I won't actually do anything about it.

Although I wouldn't shoot the messenger, I'd probably avoid her socially in a kind of "bad mama moment"/total embarrassment that everyone must know/be judging me about how I made such a poor choice in babysitter.

Clearly, babysitter's behavior is far from the bourgeois ideal. No doubt she's a mean ol' beeyotch to most people, but unless I've missed something, on these facts it just does not constitute abuse or neglect. Maybe this falls in a grey area - I don't know. But I noticed Moxie didn't say she ever felt a need to call DCFS/help the child in the moment.

Sometimes things are not as they seem, and there could be class/behavioral norm differences at play between babysitters & their charges. And I really don't like getting involved in other peoples' affairs. Just a thought.

hush

Guess I am in the minority opinion here - I would not want to know. Ignorance is bliss, and my paranoid imagination would run wild unnecessarily. The math I'm working with goes something like this: mommy guilt for WOH + lack of meaningful childcare choices + lack of abuse/neglect towards my child = me feeling awful about situation but I won't actually do anything about it.

Although I wouldn't shoot the messenger, I'd probably avoid her socially in a kind of "bad mama moment"/total embarrassment that everyone must know/be judging me about how I made such a poor choice in babysitter.

Clearly, babysitter's behavior is far from the bourgeois ideal. No doubt she's a mean ol' beeyotch to most people, but unless I've missed something, on these facts it just does not constitute abuse or neglect. Maybe this falls in a grey area - I don't know. But I noticed Moxie didn't say she ever felt a need to call DCFS/help the child in the moment.

Sometimes things are not as they seem, and there could be class/behavioral norm differences at play between babysitters & their charges. And I really don't like getting involved in other peoples' affairs. Just a thought.

Melba

I'm going to have to disagree with part of what Moxie said - I think there SHOULD be a morals clause attached to ALL employment. As an employer, I've seen what happens when one employee is just not nice. The other employees don't like working wiht him/her. It creates animosity within a group that is supposed to work as a team. You don't get a cohesive team, you get people going back to their natural instinctive means of protecting themselves when faced with a mean person, which is to be defensive and looking out for themselves. "its not my problem, so-and-so was supposed to do it" instead of "so-and-so is really swamped so I was glad to help out".

When I'm hiring someone, I'd say I place about 70% of the weighting on behavior and 30% on skill. Skill can be taught (assuming education & experience requirements are met) but 99% of the time, appropriate behavior cannot be taught or changed (with adults). I am a manager of technical staff (mostly engineers) in which skill is very important but I still place more emphasis on behaviour when interviewing/hiring.

People are only human and there are very few of us out there who can be our best when we have a nasty person in our lives. So I'd fire my mean babysitter, I just don't want that kind of person anywhere in my life, whether its personal or professional. I don't want my kids seeing mean behaviour, I don't want people in my community associating a mean person with me, and I don't want to pay or employ a meanie.

hedra

THis discussion brings to mind an article about medical ethics I once read ... in it, they discussed the issues around 'things the patient doesn't need to know'. They talked about professional and unprofessional behavior, and they used as a measure the question, 'if a surgeon made insulting or degrading remarks about you WHILE YOU WERE UNDER ANESTHESIA, and even though it didn't affect the quality of the surgery, would you want to know?' - the answer was that about 90% of med students would want to know. Even though it affected nothing, it reflected on the professionalism of their care provider, and even if they did nothing about it, it was important to them to know. The other 10% fall where hush falls - I don't know enough about the situation or background of the individuals, if it isn't affecting my direct care experience I don't even want to know.

We're kind of falling in the same split, I think. Most people would want to know. Some would not. Hard to tell if the mom in question is one of the former or the latter!

IMHO, it is both a professionalism issue and a modeling issue. Kids are sponges, and they will do what we do to them and to others around them. Certainly I can spot when I've been more 'yelly' because my kids become more 'yelly'. So, for me, that still falls in the 'safe respectful kind' rules - I expect people I hire to hold those standards, and I'd want to know if they were not. But I'm also not terribly prone to mommy guilt. Regrets, sure, guilt, no. And I'm also naturally one of the 9 who say 'I'd want to know' as an ethics issue.

(BTW, that medical ethics discussion is used for explaining the many areas in which medical professionalism is expected - if the patient might want to know, then you'd better not do it at all.)

Julie

"morals" encompases a pretty wide range of behaviors......not only how you conduct yourself when others are around, but how you do so when no one else is around. We're not talking about a caregiver having unprotected sex, getting pregnant, and becoming a single mom - IMO, that is her business and she can conduct her personal life as she sees fit - but rather, her concept of professionalism, social behavior, and what are appropriate problem solving skills for both adults and children.

I agree with the pp who said that these type of morals *do* matter in the workplace. I used to work at a school where teachers badmouthed each other in the lounge, in the halls, wherever. There was a fundamental lack of common courtesy and professionalism that was simply not enforced due to weak leadership in this area. And you know what? This school also had terrible behavior problems, kids not showing empathy, respect, caring - you name it - to their peers. It absolutely impacts children when they see that kind of behavior day in and day out. And as a parent, I place a pretty high value on how the adults in my child's life talk to him when things are not going well. When we looked for a preschool for him, it was #1 on my list of things that was important to me - how they teach kids to problem solve, share and respect others' feelings, take turns.....the basic building blocks for a successful society.

It's possible we're using the wrong term here and that "morals" in the strict sense don't apply, but basic common courtesy - and this babysitter's limited skill in this area - are what is concerning. We really don't know what her "morals" are, so we really can't comment about them.

Melba

Julie, yes you are right... what I was talking about in my post was really behaviour towards others, not morals. They are different.

pnuts mama

@hush- ITA that the babysitter probably isn't doing any physical harm to her charge that would require CPS to get involved, but emotional harm can be just as damaging and more pervasive in the long run.

i was thinking about what bothers me the most about this- it's the idea that she is encouraging her charge to act in as nasty a way as she is- by bad mouthing the other kids at the playground (el C, etc.) and not encouraging the kids to share nicely, which, while that may not specifically be in her 'job description', i think is somewhat implied when you take your charge out in public to interact with other children.

unless the parents are total jerks, too. which, in that case, i guess there's just not much you can do at all...

Julie

don't get me wrong melba....I was agreeing with you about some kind of clause in any employment......nastiness ruins pretty much any barrel you find it in. And for some reason, holding adults accountable for their interpersonal behavior among colleagues becomes very difficult for supervisors to deal with. I'm not sure why. No one has a problem re-directing kids when they are off-track, but to do so with adults seems insurmountable in the workplace. Why is that? Has anyone ever seen it happen successfully? I wonder about this all the time - especially when I see colleagues behaving as if they're 10 years old.

Melba

@Julie, I've never seen anyone successfully change inappropriate behaviour in the workplace. The only times I've actually sat someone down and discussed their behaviour (twice), they both ended up quitting. One was because the inappropriate behaviour was related to surfing porn during work, and I suspect he was just too embarassed about being caught to continue to work for me. The other would apparently rather remain an a**hole and lose his job than try to change. His behaviour was borderline abusive towards his colleagues though so I was pretty clear about the need for change... maybe he thought I was overreacting and he didn't want to work for me any more. Don't know, don't care either, because the overall morale of the group improved immediately after the nasty one left and they soon became more efficient and effective as a result.

Kind of off topic here, didn't mean to hijack the post. I suppose it does relate to Moxie's babysitter example because if the mother did know she was a nasty and decided to talk to her about it, chances are she wouldn't change. I suspect that the mom would either have to just live with it, or eventually the babysitter would quit or be fired after several attempts at change.

Melba

ps: I am spelling it behaviour not behavior because I'm Canadian, eh? :)

melissa

I truly believe that out of the mouth, the heart speaks. I'm finding these days that, the truth is, people tell us who they are. We don't have to spend a lot of time figuring them out. And if they are being unkind in one place, chances are, they are that way every place.

caramama

Oh, melissa. That is so true, isn't it? Very good point. I'm going to think about that for a while.

Erica

I think the key point in your post, Moxie, is this: "I don't care from an employer's perspective about what my babysitter does when she's not with my kids." But sounds like the behavior you're talking about is behavior on the job, not off the job, and it's behavior that's interfering with the job--which is to care for the child in the parents' absence. I would absolutely want to know if someone that I hired to take care of my child was interfering with his social and moral development. This doesn't seem to be a matter of differing perspectives (eg religion, politics), but really a matter of interfering with what the child is supposed to be doing--playing, making friends, etc. That I wouldn't tolerate.

sue

I think Julie's right ni that we should all do what Hedra suggests. Maybe we should make wristbands that say WWHD...

I would want to know what my kids were exposed to every day, so I would definitely want someone to tell me. I would also tell. But I have a very loose verbal filter. There's only one time I've held back, and it was a doozy - an acquaintance's husband was soliciting sex from strangers through a freecycle group I moderate. I had to chastise him for his inappropriate behavior and threaten removal from the group. I knew it was him but he didn't know it was me. It was really hard to wrap my head around such bizarre behavior, and I finally decided it was none of my business.

hush

I hear ya & absolutely agree about how devastating emotional harm is long term to a child, pnuts mama. But what about the long term ill effects of losing a beloved caregiver, to whom a child has developed a healthy attachment, all over what may or may not amount to a playground misunderstanding?

I wonder if there are some nuances to this that folks may be overlooking in their knee-jerk reactions to a less-than-perfect babysitter.

Seriously, if you told, what is the reasonable mom going to do with that information? Based on the comments, 90% are either going to fire the babysitter straight away, or more problematically have a "talk" with her, which some commenters have said will result in her firing anyway sometime in the future when lo & behold she does not change. That, or babysitter may quit anyway because no one wants to feel unjustly accused, especially when they weren't given the opportunity to confront their accuser.

The other 10% are going to worry endlessly about it, lose sleep, lose confidence in babysitter, and keep on monitoring babysitter's behavior like they should have been doing all along. Maybe mom will see something she wouldn't have seen in babysitter before, because you told, but then again, if mom was looking for these kinds of things all along as she arguably should have been, she'd have found that out anyway. Maybe mom will decide to leave the workforce entirely when she discovers no one can care for her children as perfectly as she can; I hope not, but I really don't know.

So if the hope & the goal is to cause baybsitter to lose her job as quickly as possible, then tell. That would certainly solve your playground troubles.

pnuts mama

well, i was looking at this question from two different angles- one side as a mom of a kid who would be subjected to this strangers hostility in a public area and the other side as "what would i want someone to do if it was my babysitter that was acting this way."

from the side of being a mom and being in the environment of the woman in question, again, i really feel that unless i was good friends with the mom i wouldn't say anything. (i don't see myself approaching a stranger over something like this- unless i saw irrefutable proof of physical harm, ykwim?) depending on the situation (especially the way she is interacting with other kids in a public space that they have equal right to be in) i very well may say something directly to the babysitter- if someone is outright nasty to my kid, or encourages their charge to be nasty to my kid (or another kid), well, that to me is socially unacceptable as a member of society- you are basically allowing the woman to act poorly and teaching your child that that is ok. and i'm not really ok with that.

from the side of being a mom with a babysitter/nanny, i'm the type of person who would want to know if the person i hired to care for my child was acting in a way that wasn't on a similar wavelength as me in terms of the way they treat other people. lets say i heard from another mom that my sitter uses the n word around my kid- that to me would be unacceptable- i don't want my kid to have a relationship with a caregiver that is a hate-filled person. because as a mom, when you are caring for my child, you are in effect standing in for me and my values to a certain extent. and i don't want my kid having someone so important role-modeling hatred/nastiness.

i absolutely understand that as observers we are probably seeing only .001% of the overall person of the sitter. but even if she is caring and loving to her charge, she is still modeling poor behavior in public, and i would agree, it would depend on the extent of the behavior that would need to be weighed with how i would approach it. so i guess as a parent i feel as though as difficult as it may be for my child to end an (unhealthy) relationship with their caregiver (and i would respect their feelings of loss, and help them work through it, as loss is a big part of life), in the long run, it is in my kids best interest to give him or her healthy relationships with the caregivers that i choose for them. b/c at the end of the day, as harsh as it may sound, my number one priority is my child's best interest, not my sitters.

brooklynmama

Interesting discussion! I have one for everyone - what if the parent in the playground is the jerk? What to do then? Reminds me of the Brady Bunch episode with Peter and the bully, although I still have no idea what the answer should be. Moxie, I love your site and can't express enough gratitude!!

Julie

Here is the thing that makes me think this is why Moxie was asking this hypothetical question.....this woman's behavior is enough to make Moxie physically shy away from her on the street and avoid playgrounds where this woman may be. Now I don't know Moxie IRL, but I think I know her well enough to know that she's no shrinking violet. And this woman "said some pretty vicious things about my older son to the child she cares for."...that's a big red flag to me as a parent. Again, Moxie is not a prude, so I'm pretty sure the woman did not call El C a big poo-poo head. And it's one thing to say something about El C *to another adult* who can process the information and come to their own conclusions....but to say something like that to the kid she is babysitting? That's unprofessional, and unless the parents themselves are total jerks, they would probably not be okay with that either.

Should Moxie say something to the woman and/or to the parents? I still don't have an answer to that, or any advice to offer. I just know what my own opinion is of this woman's behavior within the context of her job of caring for a young child and all that is involved in that job description. And knowing people like this woman IRL, I am very skeptical that she is able to completely compartmentalize this behavior to *other* people and not the kid she's in charge of. Especially since she is unable to filter her comments in front of the kid she watches. Losing a caregiver that is beloved is difficult, but it happens all the time when kids move from nanny to daycare, from daycare to kindergarten, and I guess I don't see it as traumatically as some others may see it. It's a natural transition in life - especially if it's handled properly. I certainly don't see it having the same kind of long-term damage as modeling in front of my child socially unacceptable behavior day in and day out.

hush

@pnuts mama, prioritizing your child's best interests over your babysitter's best interests is anything but "harsh" - that's the way it needs to be! Couldn't agree with you more. I'm all for giving babysitters the benefit of the doubt where they've earned your trust, but also monitoring them; in the "trust in God, but lock your doors" sense.

I didn't mean to suggest in any way, shape, or form that a babysitter's vaunted "rights" ought to in any way trump a child's health & welfare.

I can't help but keep going back to Michelle's earlier comment about "this possibility (someone being a bad example for my kids) is one of the hundreds of reasons I am uncomfortable hiring someone I really don't know to take care of my kids."

paola

I agree with Erica. If you have a good relationship with the mother of the child perhaps you can do some investigating yourself , see how satisfied she is with her nanny/babysitter and use her comments as a springboard to discuss what you have seen/know about the sitter. I'd want to know definitely. I don't want my kid associating with someone who will have a damaging influence on them if I can help it ( sometimes you don't have any choice, eg. nasty kids at school )

Shandra

As to what I would do or want - I would want to know about the specific behaviours or incidents. So if I knew the mum I would tell her what happened specifically (the names my son was called, the toys being taken away or whatever).

Where I draw the line is making this into a really broad black and white issues like "this person is nasty; do you want her around your kids." I mean she certainly does sound nasty, but that is the parents' decision to make.

And for all we know, the parents chose a caregiver that models the behaviour they believe in. That might sound weird but I remember when I was assistant teaching we had a child in the school who would absolutely fall apart if she was not first in line, etc. etc. When the parents were consulted their attitude was that she DID have a right to be first and if the school was not providing that at every opportunity, it was the school's problem. Kind of jaw-dropping, but there you go.

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  • My expertise is in helping people be who they want to be, with a specialty in how being a parent fits into everything else. I like people. I like parents. I think you're doing a fantastic job. The nitty-gritty of what you do with your kids is up to you, although I'm happy to post questions here to get data points of how you could try approaching different stages, because, let's face it, this shit is hard. As for me, I have two kids who sleep through the night and can tie their own shoes. I've been a married SAHM, a married freelance WAHM, a divorcing WOHM, a divorced WOHM, and now a WAHM again. I'm not buying the Mommy Wars and I'll come sit next to you no matter how you're feeding your kid. When in doubt, follow the money trail. And don't believe the hype.
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