So I was reading all the comments on my post from yesterday about the right way to parent, and it made me wonder about something that I actually think about often as I write posts for Ask Moxie:
Why are some of us able to toss off rules and expectations more easily than others are, and make up our own set of expectations for ourselves? Why do some of us respond more intensely to external criticism?
I've been trying to figure it out for years now (since I've been writing Ask Moxie), because I feel like knowing why something's making you feel bad is the first step to not having it make you feel bad anymore.
I love learning more things about myself, and part of that is that I really enjoy personality indicators. My dad gave me the Myers-Briggs indicator way back when I was in high school, and that was the beginning of a long quest to know more about myself as compared to other "types." (I'm an ENFP, in case anyone's wondering, but I'm not as strongly E as I was back in high school.) Taking the Birkman was a real revelation, as it showed me why my feelings got hurt when I didn't expect them to (green style but blue needs, in case anyone's familiar with the Birkman).
Recently I came across the KAI indicator, a measure of the way in which people are creative. The assumption of the indicator is that everyone is creative in some way, and the indicator doesn't measure the degree of creativity of a person at all. Instead, it places them on a spectrum of being an adaptor or an innovator. Adaptors are creative within a set of rules and boundaries, while innovators actively resist rules. Innovators are the people who not only "think outside the box," but resent the existence of the box to begin with. Adaptors are the people who not only accept the box, but get super-fast and super-fluent in getting things done the most efficient and clean way possible within the box.
I haven't figured out yet if there's a way for individuals to take the KAI to see where they lie (it looks like they've got practitioners who work with companies to help workers get along better), but just looking at some of the breakdowns gave me some lightbulb moments about myself.
And then reading the whole exchange in the comments between Maureen, who was having problems with the bedtime routine, and hedra and others who were giving concrete suggestions, made me think that this innovator/adaptor thing might be key to helping us understand how we interact and experience the "rules" of parenting.
If you're more toward the adaptor side, then you're going to accept and embrace the rules. Then, if they don't work for you, you'll feel like it's your flawed execution of the rules that's the problem. If you lean toward the innovator side, you're going to use the rules as cultural artifact, if at all, so everything will something you figure out on your own. If you're closer to the midline, you'll be able to start with the rules but then break free as needed. Obviously there's no better way to be, but understanding how you are can help give you a reality check about how you're experiencing a given situation.
So. Thinking in terms of the adaptor/innovator paradigm, Maureen sounds more adaptor-y, but once she was given concrete new guidelines she was freed to implement them with creativity.
Does that make any sense? Any comments? Anything this is triggering? Think I'm barking up the wrong tree?
Moxie - I think your theory might have something to do with why some people are comfortable "ignoring" the rules. But I think it's more complex than that. I think self confidence has a lot to do with it as well. I also think some people have a strong desire to please other people, and therefore tend to listen to advice more.
I also think that a child's temperment can also have an effect. If you have an easy baby you end up talking about "problems" less often, and therefore get fewer suggestions. However, if you have a high needs baby who is stressing you out, you tend to ask for more advice. You already feel liek you are doing something wrong, so hearing another way of doing things automatically makes you worry about what the "right" way is.
Posted by: Jojo | March 06, 2008 at 10:47 AM
I think that's a very effective way of looking at it. (I'm an ENXP, by the way - only two points different on T vs F, so I can translate my feelings into technical terms/rationality easily - makes me really ANNOYING, basically, because I can logically justify just about anything I feel, and when I was less self-aware, that meant that everything was someone else's fault. And I'm less E than I used to be, also.)
Anyway, there's also something of the S vs N thing there in the box vs no-box concept - people who intuit the world and then extract details (N) versus people who identify and build concrete models of the world going from the details to the concept (S).
My mom is a minister (retired), and this came up repeatedly in seminary. Most ministers are N's - they're drawn to the divine and to ministry in part because of the intuitive sense of the path, divinity, and wonder of the universe. But, 2/3 to 3/4 of their congregations are S's - preach intuition to those who thrive on concrete data and examples, and you're gonna get a lot of blank looks.
My mom said the same to me a while back, regarding comments/posts online various places - what works, what doesn't? I'm an N, and I'm WAAAAAY N. Leap of logic can go from one end of the planet to the other end of psychology in one go. And I know it's right, because it IS. My mom suggested that if I have a point to make, I try to include a story illustrating it. Because my conclusion will only make sense if I show what it means specifically, for those who go from data to conclusion, rather than from conclusion to data. Unfortunately, that means I always have endless comments. Sigh. Even when I'm just dumping inutitive stuff, they stay long, as I try to put concrete ideas/concepts/applications in alongside everything so I don't have the whole 'and then a miracle occurs' thing between problem and resolution.
I suspect that the 'the box works, I can use this, or maybe I'll get a new box if it doesn't!' vs 'box, how dare there be a box! We don't need no stinkin' boxes!' approaches is a related thing. And yeah, it is useful to know where we land. And very useful to realize that as odd as the other way may seem to us at times (at least for those of us on the ends of the spectrum), they both REALLY WORK. I'm married to someone on the other end of the spectrum, by the way. I had to get over the 'that's a weird way of being' thing a LOOOOONG time ago!
And I also agree that knowing where you land can help ease the distress when we can't break through to a new spot. And trust me, that's not limited to the more S-end folks. The N's have to learn how to deal in details as parents, too. My best friend is an S, also, and she said that becoming a teacher taught her that both sets of skills are needed - one comes naturally, and the other has to be constructed. One may never be really a huge skill set, but you will have kids who need one or the other, situations that need one or the other, and you don't get to pick when each is going to be called on. She is also a J (likes her time to be structured in discrete chunks with definite start and end points, not into 'go with the flow' or 'seat of the pants'), and boy howdy, can't try to get Kindergarteners to live by that on a daily basis! A little give at the edges is required.
And well, you also don't know what kind of kid you'll get. DH and I are both strong P's (seat of the pants, roll with it, go with the flow!), and ... well, G is not. He's a J, needs his order and structure, needs time to be defined clearly. If we say we're going now, we're actually WALKING OUT THE DOOR NOW, not forgetting this or that, picking up something else, still packing the bags. We're GOING. Period! It would freak him out to have us say 'time to go' and then still be packing the diaper bag. He'd stand at the door and scream until we got with the program.
It also may differentiate the 'by the checklist' from 'by the philosophy' challenge. Say, AP parenting. Since most of the world is S, there will be many people who natually follow the 'if you do these things, you are AP, and if you do not do these things, you are NOT AP'. And then there will be parents who go 'I believe in the philosophy and will choose how to implement it in my own life in my own way, regardless of the checklist'. What's hard is when the two clash, or when someone who runs the checklist realizes they don't fit in the box, but they are someone who functions best with the checklist. How to tell if something that isn't on the list is okay? How to know if you still fit in this box if you're not marking off all the items? Very frustrating.
And that's also one reason I like your 'checklist' from yesterday, because it blends the models a bit, allowing BOTH the concrete thinkers and the wander-around-without-borders folks to take it in. Really a fabo list, in so many ways. That ability to translate is something I really value in your postings.
Posted by: hedra | March 06, 2008 at 10:56 AM
Then, if they don't work for you, you'll feel like it's your flawed execution of the rules that's the problem...
This really fits with me. I can't thank you guys enough for all your comments and suggestions yesterday - ultimately helping me to stay within my comfort zone but still have some good solutions. I tried out the hide and seek thing in the crib last night and had really pretty good results. Such a better night. So thank you.
I think this post helps to explain some why yseterday's post was more difficult for me. I do definitely get hung up on the rules (rules I pick but still rules) and get frustrated when I can't find the means to implement them "correctly".
Posted by: Maureen | March 06, 2008 at 11:05 AM
I don't know if I'm somewhere in the middle of adaptor and innovator (although not when it comes to board games--they write rules for a reason!) or just an adaptor. So I don't know if what I'm going to say will help those who are super adaptors. I'll have to look into this--it's very intriguing to me.
For me, I like to learn about all the different boxes and sets of rules. And then pick and choose. If I feel like the current set of "rules" I'm using aren't working or I'm not comfortable with them, I research other boxes. I'm a research fanatic, but I like to research everything possible and then take away what will work for me and my situation. So to those who feel like they are doing something "wrong" when the current set of rules aren't working, I suggest looking into another box. Then you can still adapt within a set of rules. Does that make any sense?
The biggest way I've gotten over "it's not working so I must be doing it wrong" is with my therapist for PPD. But I found it pretty easy once she gave me a few tools to "re-frame" things and break out of the patterns I was thinking in. The second biggest way is reading this site and other mommybloggers who do things the same and I do and completely differently in order to see how many ways work and to try and figure out what works for me and my family, here and now.
BTW, I haven't taken the Myers-Briggs since high school, but I was also an ENFP (close to an XNFP). I have been wondering how things have shifter as I've gotten older, and reading hedra's post makes me realize I'm probably close to an S in my older days. I'll have to look into the Birkman and KAI indicator. I love this stuff!
Posted by: caramama | March 06, 2008 at 11:18 AM
hedra, I also read adaptor vs innovator as a sort of S vs N thing. I'm an INFX(leaning J) married to an ISFJ. Bear will have two very different models for problem-solving which I think will be a good thing.
Interesting -- discussing potty training this a.m. with DH (it's a ways off for us yet), he asked me, knowing that I'm the one armed with all the excessive reading of the parenting books and the parenting forums, what was the "by the book" approach to potty training. My answer was -- which book? Are you leaning AP or behaviorist? Led to a good conversation. He sees the reasoning of both camps. I definitely lean AP but got rubbed the wrong way early on by "checklist" AP folks, since by necessity I've made choices that don't "look" AP on paper. The checklist folk never did make me feel like I was somehow doing things wrong though -- I was pretty confident about my choices.
Posted by: clara | March 06, 2008 at 11:25 AM
Ah, Jojo also has a great point.
I'm going to be really scarce for about 8 1/2 weeks (change of tactics at work), so I'm going to indulge myself (as I did yesterday) with these repeat postings. Sorry if I'm hogging the comments!
I'm going to go back to the talk by Marian Pearl again. It really took root in me in many ways. And here it is again.
She said that as parents, we're required by the nature of parenthood to be agents of hope. We have to prove the case to our kids - if we just say the world has hope, they'll know we're lying. BUT, how many of us were raised in worlds that had hope for others, but not so much for ourselves? Where we were not trusted, or allowed to acheive, dream, or even sometimes THINK for ourselves? And not just the women, but the men as well?
I spent a good 20 years recovering from my childhood, actively working on it. Thankfully, my mom was doing the same work a few steps ahead of me, so I had a good resource, and I did a lot of self-help work, and I had a couple really good therapists, great support, etc. Very nice, and freaking shameful that it was necessary. Not blaming my parents, but blaming the entire family tree back to who knows when, who has passed on their pain down the generations. Family history is full of 'you cannot because you are a child' and 'you cannot because you are a girl' and 'you cannot because it threatens my authority and power' and 'you cannot because I am the only one entitled to have an opinion or power'. Really, to extremes not very far back in the family. And yet... not really angry at them, either. Pain is pain, and it gets passed on any time we don't deal with it. I'm sure I'll pass on some as well. My goal is to pass on less, and along with that, pass on the skills to heal and therefore pass less again. That's my hope.
I had a lot of work to do before I could trust my voice. Before I had any skill at releasing shame, guilt, fear, or anger. Before I even knew whose shame, guilt, fear, or anger I was carrying around! Some mighty wounds, and a long long lonely road to figuring it out, sometimes.
Have I got it figured out? No, certainly not. But (going back to Mariane Pearl) every time I grow one more step, thats one more step toward being an agent of hope TO my kids, and that is one more step toward them being able to be even greater agents of hope for themselves, their children, and the world they inherit.
Our kids drive us to grow, don't they? They make us wonder why we're so vulnerable to the opinions of others, and not able to turn off the voices of our parents, peers, teachers, or others from our weakest moments in the past. They strip off the armor, and remind us how much we don't know, even of our selves. They ask us to embrace fear as fully as love, and love more fully than life. It's scary, and it feels very alone in the scary. Easier to take in another wound like the others we've already got, sometimes, than to feel alone for a moment longer. Easier to relinquish our power and fold than make a mistake with someone so precious. Safer, more comfortable to live with the known pain than the unknown anguish of making a critical mistake. And hard to get enough perspective to see if that choice is in itself a critical mistake.
We aren't taught to trust ourselves, or our children. We aren't given skills to seek it out, and it doesn't feel entirely comfortable to even accept on faith that we can be trusted to do well enough as parents if we trust ourselves. Too much vague, not enough specifics. No measures, no skills, no guides. And likewise, we aren't given skills to recognize when we're repeating old pain, or to do anything with it when we find it.
All of which is more reason to love Moxie, and this community - it's a place to not be alone when we're floundering and trying to find our way without letting go of who we are, our strengths, and our little flickers of barely-there confidence that we really are the best parents for our kids. Trusting that means trusting ourselves, and trusting our kids, too. And sometimes, even for me, after 20 years (okay, now nearly 30 years) of working on knowing myself and knowing my path and trust and faith and kindness to my own being, the only thing I have to cling to is knowing that someone ELSE thinks I'm the best parent for my child, 'cause I'm not so sure right then.
Posted by: hedra | March 06, 2008 at 11:38 AM
I think Jojo makes a very good point. If I'd'a had my children in reverse order, I bet I would'a had one swollen head! Sleep? What's your problem you can't get a baby to sleep? Piece of cake! Crying? You must be insecure or something. MY baby never cries! My baby is happy all the time and I am such a good mom. I really don't know what all this whining is about! Grow up, ladies!
But that's NOT the order I had my children in. So instead of being perfect mom, I'm the one being investigated by the state because baby won't gain weight. I'm the one getting all the advice (that doesn't work) about constant wailing. I'm the one losing confidence by the minute and hanging my head in shame. It does a serious number on your head!
Almost 19 years later, I can finally look back and tell myself I was okay. I had a difficult baby. It was genuinely difficult. I didn't starve my baby. Nobodyes advice worked because... well, because it didn't work, that's all. Baby is totally awesome young woman, as is little sis. I really should have cut myself a little more slack.
Posted by: enu | March 06, 2008 at 11:49 AM
INTJ here, but I'm right on the line for all 4 categories, so take it with a grain of salt.
I'm always fascinated by these type of personality assessments and I think you're on to something, Moxie. Never would have thought of it. For me, yesterday's discussion and this concept of doing things right--for me this all stems from our parents. Yep, as usual, it's all their fault. (LOL) My sister and I, looking back, have come to the conclusion that we were both almost freakishly Stepford-childlike. My parents insist we never had tantrums. We never fought. We were docile and hardworking. (For me this ended at adolescence.) It is not entirely untrue. And my parents made a religion out of consistency. That if you--even once--don't follow through then the consequence is that the child is going straight to heck in a handbasket. So for me, dealing with my non-Stepford-childlike children (bulky phrase, that)--combined with the beliefs I inherited from my parents (i.e., that if you are not consistent that is WRONG WRONG WRONG--also note the J part of my personality, definitely inherited from my father)--well, it's taken some real soul searching for me to realize that unless I accept that sometimes I will/can be inconsistent, my unyielding nature could harm my child, psychologically, physically, you name it. The other night, DH was giving Younger her bath. Eldest was watching a Little Bear DVD. I told her it was time to turn it off. Struggle. Conflict. In my head, the voice is saying I MUST now follow through, the DVD MUST be turned off, even if it means physically wrestling with her to get to it, for if I do not follow through she'll end up smoking crack behing a dumpster somewhere at age 13. While simultaneously having unprotected sex. Deep breath. Realization that this is not necessarily true. And is this fight worth it? Help or harm? (Really wish I could remember whose phrase that is from this community, please chime in and let me know) And then I say to her: "Okay." And shrug. And then I say, "I'm an angry cat!" and I jump off the couch and pretend to be a cat, stalking away, complete with angry meows. She giggles. Wish I could say she ran to turn off the DVD, but it's never that clear cut. But it DID go off shortly after, with no conflict.
I guess what I'm getting at, is that I think Moxie gets at the core of the thing--that we are all pretty deeply programmed in our ideas of the--well, of the universe, really. Forces bigger than us, whether our personality type or our environment (nature AND nurture, as usual) are going to influence whether this idea of "right" is a hot button topic for us. Some people are able to shrug it off. For others, it's a concept that requires and deserves some concentrated reflection.
Posted by: rudyinparis | March 06, 2008 at 11:49 AM
@hedra - I'm reminded constantly of the poem by Philip Larkin "This Be the Verse" (here's a link to it: http://www.artofeurope.com/larkin/lar2.htm).
The more I think about it, the more I realize I probably started from a different place than most new parents. I assume I'm going to screw my kids up in some way. We all do. (The opening line of Larkin's poem is "They f*** you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do.") I just want to do better than my parents did, which wasn't too bad considering. I just want them to not need TO much therapy. Life isn't perfect, people aren't perfect. But we strive for better. So that our kids will have it better than we did and be better off in many ways than we were.
My dad has said only two things about his father that I've ever heard (his father died before I was born). One of those things was "The only thing I ever learned from my father was what not to do." My dad wasn't perfect, and there are some issues from childhood I've worked on, but when I think about what he went through with his father, I realize how hard he tried to be better. And he was really a great father overall.
I will not be some perfect mother for the Pumpkin and future kids. But by God, I'll do the best I can. And they will learn from me both what to do and what not to do, and hopefully be even better to their children.
To bring my ramble back to Moxie's point, the rules our parents had and their parents had were not the best rules. Their boxes where not the boxes I choose in general. So whether we are innovators or adaptors or whatever our personalities, I think a key component of parenting is learning both the good and bad from our parents, and being willing to change the rules to create new boxes.
I hate the argument that "I was raised this way and I turned out fine, so it's good enough for my kid." Yes, children are able to overcome all sorts of things. But do we want our kids to turn out "fine" dispite what we do? Or do we want them to be even better?
I'm sorry I'm hijacking the comments, too. I have no excuse other than these posts got me thinking. :-)
Posted by: caramama | March 06, 2008 at 11:55 AM
Clapping for rudyinparis!
Yeah, that. (oh, and by the way, the 'okay, it's important to you, so I'll let you keep watching rather than fight you on it' also brings up the 'wait, was that the wrong choice? Did my reflexive adaptability to their needs set up an expectation that they'll always get their way and they'll be selfish lazy arrogant dreamers with no skills or discipline? ACK! Now what? ACK!)
So much we bring to this table, no? Useful insights.
Posted by: hedra | March 06, 2008 at 11:57 AM
caramama, my mom has said that directly to me - we're walking the family tree out of the pain it grew in, step by step, generation after generation.
And it was still helpful for me to have a complete and total stranger say to me when I was pregnant with my first: "you WILL screw this up. You can't not do so. Everyone does. The goal is for them to be able to afford their therapy, not avoid it entirely." Very freeing. He'd said his brother had told him that (brother had kids first) and it saved him years of self-doubt and misery, and made it easier for him to dust himself off and try again, because he didn't waste energy beating himself up first. :)
So, yeah, I started in an unusual place, too - but I still had a long way to go. Still do, always will. And that's okay.
Posted by: hedra | March 06, 2008 at 12:12 PM
INTP over here, although some days I really think I'm more J than I'd like to admit. That's an awesome suggestion Hedra about telling stories to get things across to S types. I'm a very extreme N, my mom is strongly S...and we had years of basic misunderstandings over that. Plus being female and T is really hard...people seem to expect girls to be all emotiony and I've never really been able to pull that off. This is the first I'd heard about the adaptor/innovator thing though and I think it sounds pretty neat. I suspect that I'm an innovator, but since I feel so incredibly inexperienced as a parent I'm trying to be an adaptor...my husband took all the parenting books away a while ago because they were making me crazy. Maybe I just have to work at giving myself permission to innovate, tell myself that it can be right even if it isn't what everyone else is doing.
I loved your post the other day Moxie. I'm feeling so desperate for someone to tell me that I'm doing the right thing now that it is drifting over into all the other areas of my life. I'm a grad student, and I've been obsessing for the past several months about whether this is the right thing, whether the job that may or may not be at the other end of the tunnel is really what I want, do I really want us to be poor for years in order to get somewhere I'm not 100% sure I want to go? I realized yesterday that what I really want to do is go ask someone for advice (older, father figure type) about whether or not I should keep with this program, and to have them tell me "Yes". I want to be absolved of the responsibility for this decision...or maybe I just want to make sure I'm doing it "right". Now after reading through all the comments on yesterday's post and this one, I think that maybe it is all stemming from the fact that I don't feel like I'm doing parenting right at all (we've had to switch to cry it out...it is the only way she will go to sleep...but there is screaming every night...only for 5 minutes...but it is still screaming and it breaks my heart).
So basically I can tell myself I'm doing it right all I like, and intellectually I think I am (and my husband tells me so too), but I don't *feel* right. Maybe I'll just have to print out that post and put it on my wall to read every day.
Posted by: Today Wendy | March 06, 2008 at 12:38 PM
This makes sense. Thanks for those lists. I'm definitely more of an innovator, which in that second link is cast in a very negative way but whatever.
This might also explain why my daughter goes to bed holding a piece of cheese every night.
(hey, whatever works, right?)
Now the interesting question is the dynamic between a parent and child where one is an adapter and one is an innovator?
Please, Adaptor parents, be NICE to your kids who find what might seem wacky ways of doing things. Just because it's different doesn't mean its wrong.
:)
Posted by: jessica | March 06, 2008 at 12:54 PM
ENTP here, though not superstrong on one of them, I think it was the P? but anyway, classic researcher; married to INTJ (classic product manager). I do think for me it's a confidence thing--I don't feel constrained by the rules up front, but if something goes wrong, the voices start with "uh-oh, what if they were right after all?--maybe you should have...whatever it was I didn't do"
It matters a great deal the kid's presonality as well as others have said--you work with the intersection of what you have.
Oy, no time today--I heart you guys, see you later!!
Posted by: Charisse | March 06, 2008 at 12:58 PM
Today Wendy- I don't have much time to comment right now, but I have to send you some support. Everyone has those doubts in grad school. Really. I did, and I finished, and it was worth it. I don't know what field you're in, but if it is at all biosciency and you want to ask questions of someone who's been there, feel free to email me at wandsci AT gmail DOT com.
I can't imagine doing the mindf*** that is grad school at the same time as the mindf*** that is new parenthood. Cut yourself some slack. You're probably doing great at both, but neither is a job with a lot of positive feedback!
Posted by: Cloud | March 06, 2008 at 01:03 PM
@TodayWendy - I feel the same way. I am sooo decisive in my "real life", ie the life I lived before kids. I was armed as an obstetric nurse, research, and years of watching family make 'mistakes' and had a basket full of knowledge on how to raise my little one. AND then she was born. And everything I thought, or knew, or thought I knew, went completely out the window. Nothing in my life has ever turned me so upside down and inside out like she has. I have felt (for about 9 out of the 11 mos she has been alive) that I was genetically deformed, lacking the "mommy" instinct we are supposed to have. Why was I broken and why couldn't I make a decision. As mentioned on other posts, the books only make you crazier because you can find anything to back up what you feel and they all disagree, leading me to feel like I was damaging her. In the end, I ended up doing what felt "right" to us, but not without a lot of guilt (?, for not doing it the right way?) and defensiveness surrounding my beliefs and actions. Interestingly enough, I have a lot of self-confidence normally and don't really give a hoot what other people think, again, then along came baby, and for some reason that changed. Even being a nurse did me no good. I could tell my patient how to proceed, yet for some reason, that same wisdom and freedom never came to me (for me). Kind of nutty. Only at about the 10 month mark did I feel like we are both starting to get the hang of this (3 months, my ass!) and I can do this. I now am feeling more comfortable in my new role as mommy and the decisions that I make for her. Of course, she is about to turn 1 and I am sure this will all change again! Anyways, now I am just sorry that I spent so much of this first year feeling like a failure or trying to find the "right" way instead of just doing what I did and enjoying it. I have a high-needs baby and I did what worked. She does not compare to my friends babies and how they eat/sleep/interact. Now I think she is just smart and her brain doesn't want to shut off, this is becoming clear to me now, and through major trial and error we are starting to find our way together. I am reaping the benefits of her adorable little personality. Oh well, I guess you live and learn. Maybe for number 2 I won't be such a nutcase. I am trying to just let the "guilt" (for lack of a better term) go from my first and continue to enjoy this time of both of our lives...
Posted by: onehappycow | March 06, 2008 at 01:10 PM
I also finished grad school 3 months before she was born, or I think I would have had an aneurysm! Much luck to you!
Posted by: onehappycow | March 06, 2008 at 01:13 PM
I'm an ISTJ, and really, could not be more so if I tried very hard. I love rules and consistency and structure, and in work situations I always, always start with the process and look ways to improve it. New challenges are, well, challenging for me.
And then I had kids. Speaking of new challenges.
I haven't re-taken the MBTI, but I would doubt there would be any significant changes in my profile.
But somehow, with my kids, I'm more loose. I still like a structure, but it's more like we operate within a wide structure than that we have to follow a million different rules. That would NOT suit my 7 year old daughter at all, but would actually thrill the 2 year old boy to pieces. He seems to take after me a good bit, personality-wise.
I figure that I know my kids at least as well as I know myself, and better than anyone else in the world knows them, although my husband is a close second. I just really don't give much of a damn what other people think any more. That's very different for me, but it just is the way it has been since my daughter was born. I was also older when I became a mom, and more self-confident than I used to be by 712 miles. It seems to have shifted only about my family, though. I'm still a neurotic workaholic at the office. ;-)
I really like what caramama said above about finding new boxes if one isn't working for you. That fits me too.
Posted by: Jill | March 06, 2008 at 01:24 PM
ENFJ here. I couldn't remember what I was in high school, so I went back and took it again. I was slightly surprised to see the E, since I'm the one who brings a book to parties and hangs out with the coats, but it was only 1%.
I agree with whoever commented about birth orders affecting things. If I had had my son first, I would have had a much different opinion of myself as a parent. As it is, i had my daughter first, and she was a very difficult infant. By comparison, my son is SO EASY, though friends with even easier children think he's a spaz.
I'm fascinated by this - I'm going to go find the Birkman test now, and make my husband take both so we can do the Jung Marriage Test :-)
FWIW, I'm sort of a rule-bender - I take recipes and patterns as suggestions, but generally adhere to more serious rules by the letter (I'm mortified to say that I got my first ever speeding ticket yesterday. I was trying to calm down the baby and didn't slow down in time for the school zone) so I tend to take a little from many different parenting books/styles to find what works best for our family and each child. At the same time, I take it very personally when the kids or I am criticized, ro if I feel like things aren't going as they should. When my daughter had a rough adjustment period at the start of preschool, I was convinced I had done everything wrong - until, of course, she worked it out.
Posted by: sue | March 06, 2008 at 01:28 PM
I hadn't done a Myers-Briggs formally, so I found one online, and I am apparently ISFJ, for whatever that's worth. Not sure how that affects the price of coffee at Starbucks, but maybe I'll get DH to cough up his score later (I know he's done it...) and perhaps use that as a starting point for working out some of the strains in our relationship.
When I think about the adaptor/innovator spectrum, it makes soooo much sense to me. I think I must be one of the lucky people near the middle; I start with the rules, just to give me a sense of wtf I'm doing, and then I go my own way. If that way happens to coincide with a rule, so be it, it doesn't bother me. But I *always* start with the rules; I flounder badly otherwise, because I'm just not good at making things up off the bat. I need a foundation. Once I have that foundation, I'm quite happy improvising as I go, and taking suggestions and seeing if they fit me or not, and I love getting ideas off suggestions and trying them out... but I need that foundation, even if I completely discard it later.
I had been feeling like I was groping in the dark on parenting - I haven't the first clue what to do with a baby, and I'm going to be coping with one in three months?! My first instinct is to grab a bunch of parenting books and read them as a place to start figuring out what I want to do - and I'll probably still do it, just to have resources for ideas - but reading this blog has helped me figure out that parenting is all a shot in the dark anyway, so I may as well just roll with the punches and figure out what works for my family as we go. This realization was both empowering and terrifying! Fortunately for me, I'm pretty good at letting criticism of my personal style bounce off; I have the feeling my MIL is going to have plenty to say. Or maybe not, she's shown some amazing restraint in the past (and especially now that I'm pregnant); she may be willing to let me fumble out my own stuff until/unless I ask for help, much as she may pull a muscle from keeping quiet!
I'm all about knowing myself; I firmly believe that knowing yourself and how you work with things is the key to making life work, and that you have to keep up with what's going on inside your head. But I'm a depressive introvert, which may have influenced my views on the subject. ;P In any case, thanks for starting this discussion! It's brilliant and empowering.
Posted by: Katie B. | March 06, 2008 at 01:42 PM
@Katie B, if you want a single-source resource for many approaches/ideas, try the Ann Douglas books. She tosses it ALL into the hat, filters with substantial/quality research to weed out the utter bull, and then hands it to you laid out for you to pick through and apply as you choose. No guilt, no programming, no attitude, no putdowns.
Her series is the 'Mother of All ' series. She's one of very few parenting book authors who is IMHO on Moxie's personal planet (there are others who are great, but for style and approach, philosophy, attitude, respectfulness, and expectations that each of us has a brain and knows how to use it, she's spot on). Anyway, she'd probably fit with your style very well.
@Today Wendy, I thought I was insane for getting married in the middle of grad school. I was sooooooo glad that I didn't do that with a child, too. You rock for not just melting into a puddle of goo and seeping into the ground to excape the pressure! I'll add one to the rah-rah cheering section for finishing it up. I don't USE my degree at work (or not right now), but I'm still glad I finished it. Even where nobody here gives a rats rear what I got it in, it gives me a professional standing at the assumption level that I didn't have before. And it's easier to live up to the nice positive assumptions, I find, than to try to exceed the lower ones. So, go go go! Slog through. You might be glad you didn't bother, but you'll almost certainly be glad you did, and you won't ever wonder if it was worth it, you'll KNOW - even knowing for sure that it wasn't worth it, to me, is better than wondering if it would have been. (and all that is knowing you by way of a couple dozen words, so obviously apply with a couple pounds of salt!)
Posted by: hedra | March 06, 2008 at 02:13 PM
Wow.
That Calamity Jane thing just made me radically rethink a meeting I went to last night (and the way our synagogue board works, and doesn't).
Posted by: Tzipporah | March 06, 2008 at 02:22 PM
For some reason I think of the adapter / innovator thing as being influenced by birth order (our own, I mean). I think of the adapter type stuff as being typical oldest-child behavior, and of the youngest in a family as being more likely to innovate, make his/her own rules. Probably all stereotypes, but I wonder if there is some truth to it. And, weirdly, I think parents are more likely to go by the book with first children and innovate more with subsequent ones. So I wonder if there is some correlation.
Posted by: caro | March 06, 2008 at 03:37 PM
Having a child has made me realize something about my own childhood that I had never before had the strength to confront: my parents were very absent from me during my youth. If I didn't do a task for myself, it might not get done (like making dinner). It has made me very "strong" and very self-possessed, because I had to figure out how to be a human being on my own. If I didn't believe in the way I was doing things, then I didn't have anything else to believe in.
Not looking for pity here, just contributing a perspective from someone that gets told all the time, "How come you have it so together?" Answer: because I don't have any other way to be.
I'd love to do a Myers-Briggs or Birkman with my DH. Anyone know a workaround to the "hire a consultant" issue?
Posted by: attiton | March 06, 2008 at 03:55 PM
Caro, I think most definitely parents would become more innovative with the 2nd (and on) child since they have more confidence in their parenting, have no choice because the 1st would throw off some of the "rules" (napping to a specific schedule, etc).
As for birth order, I'm the baby (second) child but for some reason I took on more of the 1st child characteristics. Didn't have great parents (nice people on the most part but horrible parents which is probably one of the reasons I'm having such a hard time finding the right way - at this point I'm so scared of doing anything "their" way) and so my friends played a more important part in shaping me. That said, as a 2nd child, I'm definitely an adapter but I'm an adapter that wishes she were an inovator.
I also went and took a free on-line Myers Brigg test just now (I took one so many years back in HS when my family was in therapy and the therapist wanted us all to know our results to better deal with each other) as I couldn't remember my results. I'm an ISTJ (again an "I" wishing so bad she was an "E"). I guess the combo of these twos tests helps explain a lot about my parenting frustrations and being "stuck" to making certain rules fit.
Thanks again Moxie (as well as all the wonderful posters) for some interesting conversations and and an opportunity for some self analysis and understanding.
Posted by: Maureen | March 06, 2008 at 04:02 PM
Attiton, I did a quick Yahoo search for free Myers Briggs tests and found this one site: http://www.developandgrow.com/lifecoach/blog/free-on-line-myers-briggs-personality-tests/
Didn't have to fill anything out to register, give any person contact info, etc. Just took the test and the results were given at the end.
Posted by: Maureen | March 06, 2008 at 04:06 PM
I don't know about the high-needs baby making you feel like you are doing it wrong.
I'm Definitely an innovator (though one of the things I enjoy most is doing things that need to be done in the most efficient way possible. ).
I knew that my kid was just high-needs and I knew that I was doing things the best way they could be done, but really nothing more could help him... and any time anyone offered suggestions I smiled and nodded and too suggestions in the spirit in which they were offered, but I secretly thought how CLUELESS They were about the fact that this kid is just this kid and their suggestions were pretty much useless, because they never had to live through this kid (or really anything quite so loud and demanding).
I think my child really did cry all the time (literally, no matter what we did, all day and night)... I got kind of zen about it. I mean... in the end I had no control of the situation.
I never really found myers-briggs too helpful, but I definitely see how the innovator-adapter thing fits in to my approach to things and my general sense that (especially with regard to parenting) other people's suggestions are interesting starting off points, perhaps, but never really mean that much to me, because I am always going to figure out my own way somewhere.
Posted by: nutmeg | March 06, 2008 at 04:59 PM
Hello,
Totally off topic but Moxie, my google reader feed for your site has mysteriously been taken over by this website!!
http://thelondonpaper.typepad.com/thelondonblog/2007/10/lewis-out-with-.html.
Imagine my surprise when I went for my daily dose of Ask Moxie and started reading about Amy Winehouse! There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the reader but I'll keep trying at my end.
Posted by: Ursula | March 06, 2008 at 09:10 PM
Hehe mine did too. Google Reader? I don't usually expect Moxie to comment on poor Britney's custody woes.
Posted by: carmie | March 06, 2008 at 09:35 PM
So I just made my husband take the Myers-Briggs, and it cracked me up. He was laughing out loud at the "ridiculousness" of many of the questins (the global thinking ones - "are you concerned about the destiny of the human race" and all that) and I had to laugh because I had answered YES to all of the ones he thought were so preposterous. Not too, surprising, he's an INTJ (to my ENFJ). The careers said he should be a natural sciences teacher - and he's a theoretical physics professor. Not too far off.
At least better than his highschool career profile that said he should write crossword puzzles for a living (is that even a real career?) I guess the scantron didn't know about his atrocious spelling. :-)
Posted by: sue | March 06, 2008 at 09:36 PM
Ummmmm. . HELP! I'm having the same google reader problem other people are having. I was so confuzzled! Not Ask Moxie topics at all.
Posted by: Carrie | March 06, 2008 at 10:04 PM
I am an INFJ. I'm also like caramama.....if the box I'm in isn't working, I look for a new box. I don't think I worry *too* much about "the rules" and/or breaking them with my child (but I will NOT make an illegal u-turn)....mostly because he makes it pretty clear when we need to go in a new direction, whether I'm ready to or not. At first I definitely did.....and I struggled a lot at the beginning with giving up nursing during the day and exclusively pumping and giving him bottles....that wasn't how it was *supposed* to be. But once I made my peace with that I was fine. That is generally my big refrain with my husband.....if you're gonna tell me something I'm not going to like, tell me, then let me be pissy about it for a while while my brain cooks up my new reality and I can accept it. It can take anywhere from 5 minutes to 5 hours to (I hear) 5 days. But then I'm really okay, and it becomes my new normal and the obvious right way for us.
I struggled a little bit with the rules again when my ped told me he had to be off the bottle by 1........and then that passed and so did 2......and he's still on the bottle just in the morning and night time (well for milk completely).....and you know what? It works for us. I don't feel guilty about it (anymore), it just IS. I have a gut feeling that we will make that transition soon, that it won't be too bad because we can talk a lot about it and he can tell me so much more now than he could at 1. It wasn't the right time for US. So screw the rules....I'll make sure I brush his teeth really really well and make sure in the next 10 years I suck up to any orthodontists whose kids come through my classroom.
I've learned a lot in the last couple years....certainly I expect to hit that wall where my perceived *right* way meets the *way it really is*.....but my mom has (so graciously and frequently) reminded me that Alex is exactly like I was......stubborn, not likely to do what you want him to do if he senses in the SLIGHTEST that it is what you would like him to do. Much more beyond what is typical for 2 year olds. And to just sit back and let him lead...he'll eventually get there. And yes, she's having a real good laugh at my expense.
Posted by: Julie | March 06, 2008 at 10:22 PM
That would be a big fat positive to the google feedreader psycho spin out... not sure what's going on!
Posted by: Claire | March 07, 2008 at 02:15 AM
While all this is fascinating, I can't help but wonder if we are seeing a cultural difference here. The American (Western?) culture emphasizes the individual, the personality, so I can see why Myers-Brigg and other tests will help figure out how one acts, reacts, feels, etc. But I come from the East - where we are encouraged to emphasize the family, the society, over our individual thought. So despite the fact that I am generally the trail-blazer, the one who causes change, the social dictums do carry a lot of weight with me. I do end up thinking a lot about the "right way" and why I can't do things right - and I don't think it's so much who I am as an individual, but who I am in the way I fit in to the world as well as *where* I am. Would it be easier to give myself some slack if I wasn't as tightly surrounded by my society? Maybe.
I think I am more of an innovator than an adaptor, looking quickly at that breakdown Moxie posted, and I am generally the first to break the rules - but only if it's for myself, and in a space that is not affected by my society. I am more of an innovator at work - since that's the "American" society, as well as with my friends - but less so when dealing with my family, with my parents, with myself in a family situation, etc.
I get a lot of comments from my surroundings that I am raising my child "their" (American) way - things like early bedtime, sleeping in his own room, having him walk instead of carrying him all the time, feeding himself, etc - instead of "our" way - which is a little bit more cuddly and less independent. The comments aren't criticisms, per se, but more of a "You aren't doing this right, but thankfully you haven't screwed him up yet."
Posted by: Fahmi | March 07, 2008 at 10:26 AM
Fahmi, that is so interesting. My husband (ISFJ) is first generation in the US born of Asian parents. He's got lots of the sense of obligation and conformity to society's rules that you'd stereotypically expect, but he's usually quite grumpy about it -- there's this big internal tension for him with his competing need for his own independence. For me I resolve those tensions via placing a premium on interdependence. (It's a world view I developed over time as a person with physical limitations because it seemed the only way for me to stay sane and reconcile how I must live and let/help live in our Western society.) It's interesting to see the struggle play out in my husband and I've yet to discover a way to help him along with it. As for my MIL, oddly her view despite her eastern cultural background is that we are not pushing the bear to be independent ENOUGH (ie, we should let him cry more, teach him he is not the center of the universe, etc.) This is not at all to say she wants her grandchild to be Americanized -- far, far from it. She calls bear only by his middle name and speaks to him exclusively in native language, which is probably a good thing for him.
Posted by: clara | March 07, 2008 at 10:46 AM
Fahmi, that's really important, even within the US/Western culture. Local culture also probably plays a role - where were you raised? What were the values? How much was the CULTURE'S personality tied into your reactions?
I talked with one of the other grad students a lot about using Myers Briggs on culture, as well as individual. She was African-American married to a Ghanean. So she had an interesting perspective on West African culture and African-American culture. She said that she saw that White Western culture was extroverted - the expectations were for social openness (invite people into your home easily), few boundaries between personal and social space. Plus very J - time, order, sequence, not flow, movement, change. We never did agree on whether S/N or T/F had specific precedence, but I'd lean toward F (at least in the anti-intellectualism stuff in popular culture), and probably S.
She said that in her view, African-American culture was more I, and more P. If you ever get invited to her house for dinner, you know you are FAMILY. People congregate outside personal spaces to interact, display their wealth outside their homes rather than inside, because only those one is the very most comfortable with would be reasonable to invite inside. Some of the cultural-sensitivity training I got in grad school fell along the same lines - if your African-American employee is upset, do not come in and put your hand on his shoulder for comfort - that's way too far inside the personal space, think 'introvert' even if they're an extrovert, etc.
I have absolutely no idea how valid our discussions were, being two individuals dissecting our own cultures (kind of a bad perspective for doing so!), but it was interesting.
So, yeah, I agree that your culture plays a role in how you interpret and respond to other peoples' right ways, and whether you're comfortable accepting your own right way or feel pressured to accept theirs may be interwoven between culture-of-origin and our own issues, personality, etc.
And big wrist slaps for me not thinking of that and mentioning it sooner (since Human Geography is what my MA is in...). It would make a fascinating study... (which makes me wonder if it has been done, too... there's a lot out there on the culture of motherhood/parenthood.)
Posted by: hedra | March 07, 2008 at 11:52 AM
I also appreciate Fahmi's comment and have been thinking about this topic from a family of origin perspective, not quite the same as Fahmi's comment, but maybe similar. When I think of the adaptor vs. innovator styles, it is evident to me that, although we each have personal styles, those styles can be largely affected by familial experiences. For example, I come from a family where it was simply not safe, physically or emotionally, to be anything other than an adaptor. Although I would say that I have some natural innovator tendencies, my initial reaction when raising my children is to revert to what I knew to be the "safest" route from my childhood, which was to stay within the box. Obviously, I try to check this when I see that it is to the detriment of my parenting, but it has to be a conscious effort. I think that others who have grown up in alcoholic or otherwise "unsafe" homes may see this in themselves as well. Just a thought to add to the mix...
Posted by: Heather | March 07, 2008 at 12:42 PM
typing one-handed while nursing (t's teething 4 molars at once and has a head cold - oy)...
i was thinking of the cultural stuff too. (btw, i'm an xnfp - social, but need to retreat to recharge, which points up the hardest part of parenting for me - lack of alone time).
was recently talking to a friend, raised partly in the us and partly in japan, about us culture's fear of kids' dependence - which we both read largely as actual fear of feeling, interdependence, flow, messiness, etc./hyperfocus on independence and rules. in her view, there is much less of this particular stuff in japan... and yet the communal focus there is very rule-bound in other ways.
some other thoughts re microcultures: i used to write/edit for a graphic design magazine, and edited a fascinating piece on designer/client personalities and interaction that used meyers briggs. apparently 63% of designers are NJs, but only 16% of business clients. big disconnect there, no? and a big need for leveraging NJs' empathetic skills to work with The Other.
living for a while in that world, even as an editor - not to mention growing up a poet in a family of businesspeople - has made me even more resolute in making my own choices/rules, and f*** 'em if they don't like it. (or, in a more enlightened state, i try moxie's "flow over me like water" image, and just nod and smile.) A history that is definitely useful to me as a parent of a high-needs kid, too!
Posted by: Lisa | March 07, 2008 at 12:47 PM
and on hedra's comments way back:
though we had the classic high-needs kid in lots of ways, your example makes me realize how easy we've had it in one way: personality mesh. I felt so much less alone in the world when I found DH, and if possible even more so when we had T. We're all quite similar in being intense, empathetic, intuitive, opinionated, verbal, non-scheduled, goofy.
in contrast, my parents, while loving and wonderful in many ways, didn't quite know what to do with me - our personalities diverge from each other quite a bit, which was never really addressed.
i think one of my big fears of having a second child is about the difficulties - and imperatives for me to grow in new/uncomfortable directions - if he or she were
(hmm, like me) quite divergent from the rest of the family personality-wise.
Though I'm just now seeing we'd have *that* in common, no?
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