Setting the scene for potty training?

After I posted that my younger son went into underpants on my birthday, I got four emails from people asking how I set the stage for him to be able to make his own decision.

I don't actually know. I really really thought he'd be so different from his brother, who was doing all the potty-training stuff (always went on his own inside the house) but still wore a diaper when we went out. But, go figure, they both ended up doing the same thing, which was telling me at the last second that they weren't going to wear a diaper that day.

I honestly don't think it's anything I did, but rather that they're potty-training anomalies.

Now, if you'd asked me that question 3 years ago, I'd have said that I hopped on my oldest son's interested as soon as he expressed them (getting him a potty when he was 16 months, for instance, and stopping to watch every dog on the street do his business). But my younger son wasn't interested in underpants until I bought them, and, in fact, told me several times that he was going to wear a diaper "fow-evew, mom-mom."

Maybe it was because I took his claims seriously, while still giving him an out. Maybe it was all the talk about "big boys wear underpants."Maybe it was seeing his friend O wearing underpants and peeing in the potty.

At this point I have the luxury of not caring, because he even switched into underpants at night and has been getting up to pee on his own for three nights running.

But I'm betting there are some of you who have systematized ways of setting a relaxed-but-motivating environment for your kids to get out of diapers. I've said it before, but I think it's far easier to push a kid to train when they're closer to two than to three. By the time they turn three, they really dig in their heels. So bear that in mind, that when they're younger they may be less physically ready, but when they're older it's less about technique and more about mind games.

Any comments about creating the right environment for an older kid to decide to make the leap?

Comments

[hedra]

I suppose we have a setup, but the degree of success is really theirs, and the timing theirs.

As of now, at 3 1/2, we have one twin using the potty reliably, including getting up at night occasionally, and the other twin observing but mainly not using the potty at all.

M decided on her own, with some support from the preschool teachers, that she *could* do it. Someone here (pnuts mama?) had a similar experience - there was some self-doubt/anxiety over the ability to succeed, and that was suppressing desire to try. Her teachers set her up to succeed by scheduling her 'trying' trips reasonably frequently, picking up the pattern of successes, lots of praise, no disappointment for misses (though plenty of "I know you can do this").

So the first key was having people she trusts say they trusted her ability.

Second key for her was asking her to listen to her body, not to me. Sometimes you need to be in the quiet of the bathroom (sitting on the potty) to really listen well, but that's okay. It's still listening.

Third key for her was finding the motivation. She wants a bike. Um, okay! She's told me about the bike just about every day since I first asked her what she wanted as a treat when she's dry. I mentioned that G wanted a bike, and B wanted a rocking chair (I didn't even get that part out of my mouth before she said 'BIKE!'). She's also motivated by telling her teachers she met their expectations (success).

So, I guess the 'set up' is:

a) Frame the process as one they'll naturally succeed at, and trust them to do so.
b) Make it an internal process to them, not an interplay of me and them. (listen to your body, not listen to mommy)
c) Keep an eye out for what motivates them.

And be really really patient. Both in the short frame (it always takes M twice as long to start peeing when she's sitting there as I expect. If I start getting impatient that she's not peeing, she REALLY can't pee, and then she has an accident two minutes after I get her pants back on.), and in the long frame (R is 3 1/2, and she's not self-training, either. But G was 3 3/4, and trained in a day, so ... well, maybe she's more like G.).

M trained in about a week. There were plenty of accidents, but we spotted when they tended to happen, too. A) Sick. B) Ate wrong food (Fructose Malabsorption acts like IBS). C) While eating dinner. D) Any play involving water. So, we ask her regularly during dinner to listen to her body, and likewise with water play. She did have an accident yesterday (first in a while other than while sick), and she jumped up and said, 'MOMMY! I dinnent listen to my body! I peed! I need to clean up! Help me get my pants off?' - hard to be upset over that kind of thinking/response.

Setting them up in that general manner won't make them want to do it, but it seems to help remove any blocks that might hold them back otherwise.

Oh, we also had a 'hider' (B), and I found some research that said that kids who hide to pee or poop tend to not train until around 4 years old. I also found info that said that these kids tend to be very sensitive to fear and shame around potty training, and the first step is praising all poop/pee, no matter what, where, when, or how foul it is. In very short order, the hiding went down to almost never, and he potty trained himself at 3 1/2, so, rather earlier than expected (especially since he still essentially had IBS symptoms at that time).

[Linda]

Both of my boys went into underwear at 2 1/2 by their own volition, no pressure at all on my part.
People also ask me what I did, and I usually tell them I just didn't turn it into a big deal.
The one thing I did do was show them that I bought them underwear and put them in their drawer and told them when they think they're big enough they could wear it, and then we would joke around with them and say, 'you can't be ready yet, you're too little, no, no, no!'
They would both reply excitedly, I'm ready, I'm ready, please!

Although they trained in one day by determining they were ready, my older son still wears a 'goodnight' diaper to bed because he hasn't achieved bladder control at night- he's 5! The younger one did night and day all at once.

We also had conversations about EVERYONE goes to the bathroom, which is kind of gross but I could tell that they really 'got it' when I would say, everybody poops, and then go through our list of friends and relatives and the characters on Sesame Street.

[hedra]

Heh, Linda, we use that playful approach, too. A little resistance to them potty training means they drag me into it when they think they're ready. But it can't have that underlying hope that maybe resisting will make them want to (at least around here - they smell the goal/intention a mile away, and just play along!).

We spent a year and a half 'training' G, really. Uselessly. I now have a huge resistance to potty training, myself, because I remember (aka was-traumatized-by) the endless pulling over on the side of the road for him to get out and pee, and the accidents (even in pullups - he must pee too fast or something), and more accidents, and the resistance, frustration, dashed expectations, etc. It was only after I gave up and stopped trying to get him to train that he took ownership and trained. Granted, the 'reason' for him was that he disliked one of the teachers at his summer program - so much so that he didn't want her helping him with his pullup. So, day three at the summer program, he was in underwear, and never went back (though he was in goodnights overnight for ages - delayed senser, so he doesn't wake in time). Maybe two weeks of random accidents, but nothing major, and all his idea, based on a motivation I could never have figured out on my own (and wouldn't have set him up for, either).

Anyway, that whole ordeal made me rather resistant to the potty thing, and ... well, reverse psychology doesn't work on some kids, and seems underhanded, but some honest and/or playful resistance to the idea that they'll be using the potty today hasn't hurt. Not dismissive (not 'I don't trust you, I don't believe you') but resistance nonetheless ('Are you big enough? I'm not sure you're big enough, let me check. NOPE, you're definitely still my baby, and babies aren't big enough to use the potty.' With a wink or a mock-seriousness approach.) I bet that's in Playful Parenting somewhere...

There are probably a half dozen other things we do to help this along, that I haven't realized I do (didn't even think about the creative resistance thing!), too.

[heather]

I'm not sure that there are any right or wrong ways. It seems like every child does it so differently. The people that I know that started with their kids at two seemed to still have kids with the occasional accident at three. I know some people who have major resisters at almost 4.

My own experience was my son (who was 3 in January) who seemed to have no interest whatsoever. During the past summer he used the potty infrequently and sometimes he "happened" to pee during the hours he sat on it. Then I had a baby and whoosh, out the window.

I was sure he would never potty train and any attempts at trying were met with a very stern, "no, when I'm a big boy." Well, two days before his third birthday he asked for underwear and he has worn them ever since. He has had zero accidents, poop or pee, and while he still wears a diaper at night, he hasn't used one during the day since then.

But, who knows what will work for anyone else.

[Simone]

After hearing all the horror stories from moms with kids older than mine, I was scared witless about starting the process. So I took a VERY laid-back approach (which freaked out the hubby--he thought we were being too lackadaisical about it and that we'd have a 10 year-old in diapers!). Basically, starting around 2, we put the potty chair in the bathroom to acclimate him to having it there. I peed with the door open, and after a while, I asked him if he wanted to go, too. If he said yes, then we'd try. He was always able to pee a little on command. If he said no, then I would say "OK, that's fine." A couple of times he would look at me as if to say,"really? you don't care?" I think he was actually testing me to see if we would make this a battle of wills. We also had him pee before baths (otherwise he'd pee IN the tub). I, too, had bought the underpants, and showed him. He liked the designs, but didn't really have an interest at first. Closer to 3, he started getting more interested, and I'd ask him if he wanted to wear them and he's always say no. Then I progressed to asking *when* he thought he'd like to wear them, and one day he arbitrarily said "Sunday." It happened to be Friday, so we made a big deal of the upcoming weekend. Saturday we talked up how "Tomorrow is Sunday, do you remember what happens?" He litterally woke up Sunday, put on underpants, and that was that. It was less than a month before his 3rd birthday. A little later than I would have wanted, but I wouldn't trade it at all because it felt SOOO easy to me. No camping in the bathroom, no frustration, and no accidents because he wasn't ready. Once he went into those underpants that day, he only peed once (we were outside and he didn't listen to the "cue" quickly enough) and pooped two times. A couple of of weeks later when the night-time pull-ups were consistently dry, we cut those out, too. It beat camping in the bathroom for 6 straight hours ending in a screaming match (I actually know someone who did this...) The funny thing is, I used his potty chair ONCE--hated it, so we switched to the seats that go on the big toilet.

[ABCD]

All three of mine have shown significant interest in the potty at 18 months, so I start training them to use it. They all been completely potty trained (day and night) by their second birthday as well. I start by have 1-2 hours of naked time each day where I watch them like a hawk. If they start to pee, I pop them onto the potty. Then we do a potty dance and they get an M & M. They love it. By about 21 months, they are naked whenever we are home and can usually get to the little potty by themselves as long as it is in the same room with them. By 24 months, we are in underwear full time. They simply night train themselves, there is nothing I do to help that other than being willing to take them to the potty at night when they wake up.

I have many friends that say their kids show interest in the potty at 18 months, but they just ignore them. My friends say it is too much work to take a child to the potty. They would rather wait unit the child is 3.5 and can pull down their pants on their own and basically do it themselves.

This is not my POV, I think it is easier to take a toddler to the potty than to change poopy diapers.

[rby]

I agree with comments about jumping on any early interest in using the potty. We also bought a potty when my son was 18 months, though it mostly sat around for a year. I encouraged him to use the potty sometimes, but he never did regularly, and I never pushed it (especially because he started holding in his poop for days and days, and I didn't want to freak him out and make the constipation worse.)

Then, one day, almost as an accident, he pooped in the potty after his bath (he was 2 and a half). The next morning he wanted to wear underpants, and we just ran with it. He had very few accidents at first, I think because of the novelty of using the potty. But once it became more of a regular thing, he did resist taking a break from playing to use the bathroom. He's been in underpants for a month now, and I am still asking him if he has to use the bathroom often, like once an hour. If he says No, I usually don't push it, though I do have him sit on the potty at transition times, like before dinner, before a trip to the store, etc. A friend of mine set a timer for every 15 minutes at first. Her boys were both potty trained before age 2. That was *way* too often for us, but I can understand how the timer might work well, especially for older kids who can be oppositional just for the sake of it (hello, 3!). Instead of a parent nagging, it's more neutral: when the timer goes off, it's time to sit on the potty again. My friend also said she made her piece with lots and lots and lots of accidents and just kept persevering, even if it seemed like it would be easier to stick the kid back in a diaper.

So, the next step for us is for me to stop asking him to sit on the potty quite so much--for him to listen to his body, and for me to trust that he's doing that. But overall it's been a really painless process. Mostly that's luck, but if we did anything to help the process along I think it was introducing the potty very early but letting the kid choose to use it or not. Now if we apply that same principle of not caring to what he eats for dinner...

[Tamara]

Great post, thanks! This is just what I needed right now. My son is 3 1/2 and is completely digging in his heels. You are SO right about the mind games at this age. We were going along pretty well, trying to get him trained before his little brother arrived. Yep, we weren't done and little brother arrived and we went sliding right back. It has been so frustrating for my husband and I. He knows when he has to go, can do the whole process on his own (sitting or standing, washing hands, etc.)he just refuses to do it. I have even resorted to bribes. Started with stickers, then chocolate, trips to the play place, etc. Those all worked for a few days and then it was as if he got wise to the plan and stopped again. He is so strong willed! This is seriously testing all my patience. I have now told him (gently) this is it, no more pull ups when these are gone and that they are too small now, which is true. My plan is just to put him in underwear and work with him from there. He just gives me a resigned look and says "ok, Momma". We'll see how it goes.

I am definelty getting the second one trained earlier! I hope seeing his brother do it will be an incentive.

[hedra]

ABCD - three of my kids showed interest at 18 months, too. We jumped on it joyfully and enthusiastically with the first, and ended up with that year and a half of hell (I think he smelled our excitement). I was cautiously optimistic with the twins when they showed interest. I strongly suspect that M would have trained at 2 or so if not for the twin thing... something about her sister trying to shut the lid of the potty on her every time she sat down (even though they both had potties), and then her sister deciding that potties were to be avoided (after being pushed off it after shutting her sister in the other one), which then lead to the monkey-see-monkey-do thing (both avoiding it). And that was WITH me standing right there blocking between the two of them. (Hint, maybe keep the two potties in different rooms... though we also had ownership torment at the same age, I'm sitting on your potty, that's MY potty, etc. There's a reason my car has a bumper sticker that reads: You can't scare me, I've got twins!)

Whee. My mom was very hopeful, as well - we were all trained at 2 or so (me at 22 months), but we were also all in So Cal, and could be naked all the time without getting cold. We tried anyway, but no go. (My mom followed ABCD's approach, easy and cheerful, grasp the interest and make it an opportunity, less bother to take them than to keep changing poopy pants... and even after doing that successfully with all of her own kids, couldn't with mine.)

So, definitely I agree that there can be a nice window there around 20-24 months, if you jump on it. With twins, it may make sense to have another body jumping on it, too (my mom had them for the entire summer, but had the same issue as me - they used the potty as a stick to beat EACH OTHER with, and parental/caregiver involvement was way low on their list). If ya miss that window, or if you don't consider it a good bet, or if they resist the idea and make it into a fight, or whatever, then we're on to the 'you train yourself' thing... which I think is what Moxie was talking about - it you are already at the 'late training' stage, how to proceed so they do it themselves?

[Michelle]

I think it depends on the kid. We have a very serious daughter who felt just awful when she had accidents- even though DH and I made an effort to be positive and encouraging. It was a bad idea to try to train her very early.

Turns out that about 2 1/2 was just right, with nightime potty training much later (a few months after her third birthday).

[rudyinparis]

This is a good conversation for me. We have the potty in the bathroom for Younger (she is 23 months) and it's been there since she first showed interest--at about 18 mos. She sits on it before bathtime but we haven't actually has success with it yet (which I'm not worried about.) I haven't given it much thought, to tell you the truth. I think as it gets warmer we'll have her be naked more and roll with it that way. I'm determined not to get worked up about it, and I suspect it will be a quicker process, as Eldest is around to help show her.

[hydrogeek]

My daughter is 15 months and we've recently bought a little potty for the bathroom because she was getting VERY interested in what mom and dad were doing on the potty. When she gets naked at night we've started a little game of 'sitting on the big girl potty', which basically involves her sitting on the edge of it, not even over the hole, and us clapping and YAY'ing. Just recently she came in while I was on the potty and I told her that mom was on the big girl potty, and she sat down on hers, then looked at me like 'Where are my claps?' I'm hoping for her to decide she wants to do this before age 4, because I REALLY do not want to 'train' after some of the horror stories I've heard. Also, it seems like 15 months is really early, but my mom says I was potty trained by then because I hated being wet or dirty. My daughter does not have that problem, and would happily sit in her own poop all day.

Yet another post I'll be stalking comments on...

[meggiemoo]

My DS (now 27 months) showed interest quite early, which led us to buy the potty and talk enthusiastically. He then proceeded to put his dolls in it and push it around the house. It's actually collected dust as he refuses to sit on it.

All of this, yet he HATES to sit in poop and tells you he's pooped and to "change it! change it!" even if he's trying to poop and hasn't actually done anything yet. We don't push the issue and just still ask him occasionally if he'd like to sit on his potty. He always refuses.

I'm scared of going through what my friend went through...she emphasized the potty training with her 3-year-old so much that her daughter started withholding and would only poop in her sleep. Yuck.

Does anyone have any anecdotal evidence whether the little potty is better/worse than the potty insert in the actual toilet? I had read that the little potty might be easier to use, but maybe my son would feel more like a big boy on the actual toilet. Sigh.

[hedra]

meggiemoo, I think it is kid-dependant. My kids have preferred a) the big potty with an insert, b) the little potty on the floor, and c) the big potty with no insert (but with a foot stool for balance enhancement). We were all set the second go-round to have the seat on the potty approach, but nope. Hmm. I wonder if bringing that back might help R. Huh. Something to consider, for us.

I'd say, if one ain't working, try something else. At this age, you can just ask if they want to try it, and provide the foot stool for getting up and down (and just leave the idea out there for them to explore).

[Meg]

I only have one kiddo so far, but my experience is this:

Cloth diapers! And not the stay-dry type, like FuzziBunz etc. Best are regular cotton diapers that allow the child to feel the sensation of peeing/having peed. The more frequent the changes, the better. We aimed for changing after every pee; obviously, this wasn't always possible when we weren't at home, but oh well.

Naked time! We have hardwood floors, so this was no big deal for us, but we pretty much took our kiddo's pants and diaper off, from around the time she could walk, whenever we were at home. We had a couple of potties available, but made no big deal about it. I think this accomplished two things: one, it made her all the more aware of her own body functions, and it wasn't long at all before she could sign "toilet" as she was peeing, and then pretty soon after that, right before she needed to pee. Two, it attuned us as parents to her body signals and her timing. This helped us get her to the potty at the right times a lot more successfully.

"Potty training" was never any sort of concerted effort in our house at all, but cloth diapering and naked time set the scene, I think. One day, at about 18 months old, it all just clicked for my daughter, and she began using the potty full-time, just like that. A month or so later, she didn't need a nighttime diaper anymore, either. The whole thing took us rather by surprise!

Since she was so little, it was a little like a late-start EC. We definitely had to help her with the potty, as she couldn't reliably get her own pants down or that sort of thing. We didn't find it to be a hassle at all, though -- no more so, anyway, than diapering! By age 2-2.5, she became a lot more independent about it.

Also due to her being so young, there was absolutely no power-struggle element *at all*. She learned her body's signals, we learned her body's signals, we learned how to communicate with each other about them, and it was done. No bribery, rewards, discussion, cheerleading, etc. required.

I bought some training pants in a bit of a panic, wondering how on earth I was going to get a little kid to the toilet when we were out and about. But we really only used them for a week or two. She really surprised me with her ability to let me know, even in e.g. the grocery store, that she had to go... AND to give me time to get us to the restroom.

Anyway, that's my experience. As another commenter mentioned, I think a lot of toddlers show interest/ability at this age (14-18 months or so), but many parents overlook it, or write it off as being "too soon." For us, it really worked to go with it.

[meggiemoo]

Thanks Hedra! I'll try that.

[Jan]

We used the naked time approach with my daughter starting at about 20 months. She had a little potty and a new baby brother and for her it was ALL ABOUT the fact that she could handle the entire process herself and how much that helped Mommy. (Why oh why did I not get any video of her 2-year-old self using the potty, putting the tissue and dumping the pee into the big toilet, flushing, then climbing the sink to rinse out the little potty bowl and replacing it. So cute.)

I'm inclined to agree with ABCD on this one. I find it hard to believe that kids are less developmentally able to train now than they were 30 years ago, yet our generation was all trained at around 2. And ours is one of the only countries in the world that potty trains so late. In most places, the norm is more like a year.

Most kids like to be naked, so naked time is a pretty easy and appealing way to get started. I was home with a newborn anyway, so we just started then, first naked, then with just underpants, then undies under clothes at home, then short trips out and finally all the time (not while sleeping).

My daughter refused to poop on the potty until we used the 'present' trick (I got this from someone here: wrap up a bunch of little gifts and put them in the bathroom in a basket; poop on the potty earns a gift -- worked like a charm on my kid.).

[midlife mommy]

Honestly, we are members of the "whatever" school of potty training. We bought underwear when my daughter expressed an interest. We bought her two potties (one for each of the bathrooms) when she was around two. We told her what the rewards would be. We bought some potty training DVDs and let her watch them on demand. We suggested that some of her friends at day care were wearing underwear and using the potty and wasn't that great! And then, we just let her decide. She's 3-1/2, and she's pretty well trained herself over the last couple of months. We just maintained a belief that she would eventually want to be like everyone else. And, as it turned out, she did.

[KateW]

My parents bought our daughter a potty for Christmas this year - she just turned 1 in January. We were shocked that she peed and pooped in it successfully several times right away. It's a total game for her and we don't push the issue; just lots of talk and naked time. She loves sitting "in tandem" with mama, and has started telling me when she's going in her diaper. Every time we take the dog for a walk, she is very excited to label the poop and pee;) Great educational opportunity.

It occurs to me that if we had another child, I wouldn't have the patience to run after a naked toddler cleaning up puddles, but given that I have the time I'm hoping to take advantage of her interest and willingness. Besides, it's too cute when she sits her doll on the pot and tells her to "pooppoop"

[Beth]

My two older daughters were potty-trained by my mom and sister, so I really hadn't had any success. My youngest, however, started going poop in the potty before she was 2, but only if we didn't push the issue, and still wanted to wear a diaper. I tried to get her to wear panties, but she just had an all-day meltdown. Towards the end of December, we just kept telling her, "no more diapers after Christmas." So, a few days after C-Day, we decided it was time. She has been fairly successful. She does wear a diaper for naps/bed, but is often dry. She refuses to wear pull-ups, which is fine-they are expensive!

[Nicole]

Funny, I was considering writing an Ask Moxie email about just this topic. My 23-month old has always been entranced with the potty- same thing, got her one around 16 months. She sits on it every time I go to the bathroom (fully clothed). She can tell me when she has to 'poo-poo' and says 'potty'. I take her there, diaper off. She jumps around, plays games, sits on and off the potty for a good 15 minutes before I finally can't sit in the bathroom anymore and then give up, put a diaper on her, and she poops. So even though she makes the connection, she won't GO. She wants underwear- I have promised her underwear. I sort of think maybe she's not there developmentally, but she's certainly on the verge. Do I push it and sit in the bathroom for hours every day? Or just let it be and assume she'll start making that next step on her own?

[Cas]

I'll comment if only to serve as a warning beacon to others.
My daughter started showing a really keen interest in the potty around 16 months and I totally blew it off.
Lots of reasons. I wasn't ready to start training her. She seemed so little. I thought it would be less inconvenient to keep her in diapers for a while. I didn't mind changing her. I knew she was the only child we'd ever have and I didn't want her babyhood to be over. I didn't want to push.

And now she's going to be 3 next month and it truly is a battle of wills. The pee thing is coming along, though she still has an accident when she's deeply involved in play. The poop thing is a NIGHTMARE. She can do it but she won't. WON'T. Every single day I am washing poopy pants. EVERY DAY.
I've actually written to Moxie three times to beg for help. She didn't answer and I'm STILL clueless.
I've actually become one of those mothers who CRY over potty training. If that isn't pathetic I don't know what is.

I only comment to serve as a cautionary tale. If you blow off that early window you might wind up really regretting it. And if you truly actually want a kid who will just train themselves in one day, no training at all, be ready for it to happen way later than you imagined it would. This was the worst screwup I've made as a parent thus far.

[Kel]

Oh wow is this timely. My twin girls are 33 months old.

One, B, is very interested and if she were a singleton would be potty trained now. Her sister, L, is very resistent (but it didn't start out this way, L made poop in the toilet at 22 months, but it "hurt" and has refused since with lots of tears). So we are attempting the laid back approach, but I think 3 years old is going to be about control and want to get them both there before that.

Also adding drama to the situation is that once at 25 months, L, pooped in the bathtub. This is the only time this has ever happened and I must have reacted strongly (they were both in the bathtub with every single toy they owned so there was lots of hoisting out of the tub and cleaning up). L will now ONLY go into the bathtub with a washcloth that she can sit on so she feels protected (man, do I feel guilty). I think this was a great solution to make her feel better (it was her idea) and have told her so many times and make a big deal about getting her washcloth all ready at bath time.

This has me redoubling my efforts to make the whole thing NO BIG DEAL. No shame, no problem, when you're ready, you'll be ready.

My issues now are how to we reward B for going and using and being so close without it turning into something that L is just not doing (and thus not being rewarded for).

Help?

Kel

[Slim]

"This was the worst screwup I've made as a parent thus far."

Then you are doing great! (This weekend marked a Very Special Milestone: swearing at my child. Thank you. I am so proud.)

I think the get-on-the-ball/let-it-happen schools work equally well for the child, but not so well for different sorts of parents. I do not want to spend loads of time encouraging trips to the potty, waiting for production on the potty, doing cleanup of what happens when items 1 & 2 don't work out. And I'm not taking a child out of diapers until that child is at least willing to poop on the potty. I don't love changing diapers, but I know this is the path I've chosen, and I'm handling it better than I would have an earlier attempt with a less-capable child.

[meggiemoo]

@Slim...I'm with you. I'm taking the lazy parent road here, which tends to work much better with my kid. His daycare teachers have made some attempts to have him sit on the toilet, with resulting tears. (I think they've also recognized that he's not ready.)

I'm pretty sure my son will be one of those who looks at me one day and tells me he's ready for underwear, and that'll be it.

He's inherited my stubborn streak, so nothing but heartache would have come from trying to force the issue when he was younger. He also seems to be totally immune to bribery.

I don't mind the diapers. Maybe in another year I will, but for now, we're cool.

[hedra]

Clearly there are multiple windows of opportunity. 18 months-24 months, 2 1/2, 3 1/2 (note that nobody has yet said 3... 3 is all about power, and the potty is a big ol stick with which to beat the parents...).

And likewise, various approaches that seem to work with each of those windows.

I think Slim hit the nail on the head. The ability comes early, and later, and later, as well, in cycles. Many windows of opportunity. All can work. Not all will be a good fit for your family/parenting/philosophy.

It's really basic Moxie: There's a wide range of normal, and you are the best parent for your child. If trying the early route looked like an insane assignment at the time - for whatever reason - then it DID, and you have not failed anything by missing that first window. You might find it either annoying or expensive or both to have made that choice, the choice may have been intentional or because something didn't click or fit or function as expected, but none of that matters at this point.

YES, try for the first window if you think it fits! Just like YES, try for hoping to get them to sleep through the night. But NO, don't violate your parenting instincts or principles or your understanding of their fundamental nature (or the intersection of those in the parent-child dyad) to do so.

Reward systems and daily habit-building work well for that early window. I'm viscerally opposed to external motivations - I use them, but I find them uncomfortable. I'd rather use a one-off (bike!) than a daily (m&m's) version. And I'm way too seat-of-the-pants (ENXP, remember) to do the daily reinforcements without wanting to climb out of my skin and go live somewhere else.

Instead, I find myself providing the opportunities, and letting them take them as they choose. Likely, my way feels totally wrong to plenty of people here. It just works perfectly for me. :shrug: "Whatever"

And since there are those multiple windows of opportunity, if your style and your child's style intersect at window A, then WOO! GO FOR IT. If your style and your childs style do not interesect there, then apply your effort elsewhere.

And personally, I know I've said things like 'he isn't ready' when I really deep down mean 'we've considered who he is, we've considered who we are, we have explored the process and found where it caused friction that wasn't worth the payoff, and we're waiting until our family's personal constellation is aligned with ability, intent, will, drive, and payoff. Then we'll proceed from there.' That's just way too long to say, so I say 'my kids weren't ready'. And okay, so the first time, I was still 'trying trying trying' for most of that time. Trying to make my own parenting fit in someone else's method. Bzzt. Not happening.

At this point, I trust that they're driven to autonomy as well as relationship/interdependence. Trying to force the autonomy in one area when they're trying to drive that area as interdependence causes friction. Trying to get them to choose the area I want them to be autonomous in as the area they'll focus on isn't working. Trust me, we're trying for the autonomy getting down the stairs without being carried thing, when R is into the interdepenence on that function... friction (oh, so inches from the swearing)!

At least with the potty thing, I don't mind letting them choose at what point they'll take the alternate path. I know they will. I know that they'll find other ways to be interdependant around self-care once they're autonomously able on this. I'm much more fretful about the carrying thing. If it was the potty, I'd be oh, sure, I'll help you, whatever. No, I have to get 'stuck' on them being autonomous getting down the stairs. Sigh.

So, yeah, put me in the "Whatever" school for potty training, too. And put yourselves in the school that is appropriate for your family. Just as we won't be rocking them to sleep in college, we also won't be helping them in the bathroom. They'll get there.

[hedra]

@Kel, We lean a lot on the 'you are not the same as your sister' in every aspect of life. That seems to have worked out to be just understood in the potty world. You don't have to do what she does. You don't have to do something different, either. You may be the same, you may be different, as you choose, and as you are. We don't address that specifically about the potty, we address it whenever one of them says something to the other, or someone says something to them. So if M says to R, 'you're not using the potty' I say 'R gets to choose what she does for herself.' or 'R is not M, R is R' or 'M is the best M I could ever have. R is the best R I could ever have.' or even just 'I'm talking about you, right now, not R'

Takes it back to the root - we choose for ourselves. When R uses the potty, R and I will determine what reaction works best for R, and what rewards, and those will not be like M's. They will be suited to R. It is in some ways very helpful that they are NOT potty training at the same time, because I then don't have to remember two sets of cues and responses, nor do I have to deal with direct comparisons between one and the other - if I misjudge and someone wants what the other got, it can get bad. Instead, I just deal with the 'to each, their own' and 'everyone does things in their own time and their own way - even if sometimes that's the same time and way as someone else, it's their choice' underlayers. It works.

[Nicole J.]

How timely! My 19 month old son has shown great interest in the toilet over the last few months. So I bought two potty chairs about two months ago. He'll move them around the house and sit on them with lots of encouragement for about 5 seconds. So I was going to just forget the whole idea for a few months.

But after reading these comments, I think we will institute naked time for at least a couple of hours a day and see where that takes us. I think he is capable and ready but doesn't really understand how to go about it. He will tell me if he has a dirty diaper. So maybe he just needs a little encouragement.

Thanks for the ideas!

[Lisa F.]

bean started letting us know he'd pooped at 12 months, so I got a potty chair just to have around. he was interested, and I'd get him up in a.m. & after nap & brought him in w/me when I was going & caught quite a few pees & poops. thought we were brilliant!

then, he started getting his molars & had recurrent ear infections, was up every.two.hours.every.night to 'nurse' i.e. teeth on me. I couldn't handle the potty on top of that so let it go until last summer at 24 months, did a lot of naked time w/potty in the room, at first it was like a fun game, and he peed every time he had the slightest inclination, and we ran to the bathroom to dump it & party. we had both the Gerber training pants & some train big boy pants, but did mostly naked.

But then he wasn't into it, and I didn't want to force it. before he turned 2.5 in jan, it seems everyone we know, same age & a month or so younger started pottying. he started noticing it. we had weaned in January, and I started talking about that in advance, so decided to try the same tactic w/pottying, ok on Valentine's day we're going to start pottying For Real. and we did!

used a calendar & stickers, at home it went great. took him out the next day to a playdate in undies & he had an accident. he Will Not Go in public restrooms. I bring his Baby Bjorn potty in the car next to his car seat. After he had his accident, just a little later he had a good pee in the car, and from then he's only had a tiny accident where he was then able to hold it & get to potty.

I've been amazed at his ability to hold it, esp since he won't go in public rr.

Pooping is another story. he's a 'hider' has his corner in his room where he goes w/a couple of toys for private time to poop in a diaper. he has tried to poop in the potty but nothing happens. for two days he didn't poop, and sat every time he felt he had too on my request, but couldn't let it happen. so I give him a diaper & say, you'll go when you can on the potty. one afternoon he had two little poops on the potty & was thrilled & really excited about having a big poop on there, but no go.

Today we're in an interesting spot, we ran out of diapers & now have a pullup. he had to poop & husband offered him the pullup but no. potty? nope. so I'm going to wait & see. I don't want to get him in a situation where he poops himself because he can't hold it.

oh, and he refuses a diaper for naps, and frequently is dry in the morning! but not always. it's been easier than I anticipated, and so far I feel pretty relaxed about the pooping because I've heard so many stories.

we've got a Baby Bjorn that he likes because he can hold onto it, and also a flip seat on the big potty that he's used on his request 2x so far.

[Moxie]

I should put a big disclaimer on my site: I virtually never answer potty-training questions because I have no idea how to potty-train a kid!

Cas, what would happen if you asked your daughter what would make her poop in the potty?

[pnuts mama]

haha, slim, you just made me lol- last week my husband said "wtf?" to something and pnut repeated "wtf" and we both looked at each other and he said to me- put that in the baby book "dropped first f-bomb." so nice.

oh potty training. pbbbbtht!! i think we're in the "whatever" camp, can we call it "child led training?"

i know we missed the early window (if it even existed for us) since pnut was a super late mover/walker and had pt for her gross motor skills. since christmas we've put a potty in the bathroom that she sits on clothed and reads books, and about a month ago we bought a seat that goes on the big potty that she moves her stool to, takes out of the cabinet, puts on, climbs up, sits down (clothed) and "practices" going potty on. i've purchased cloth training pants and most of her spring/summer stuff has elastic waistbands that will be way easier for her to remove- plus once it gets a little warmer i won't mind her having naked time.

i'm not going to lie to you- she's probably ready to be trained. i bought the pantley book and hope to read it this week. but i'm glad i didn't start this process a month ago- it is way easier for me to sit on the couch and change her diaper than try and jump up every 15 minutes to "try" or chase down a puddle or do 1700 loads of laundry while doing this 'partial bedrest' thing. i know she's turning the dreaded three this summer, i expect she'll regress once newbabybean arrives, but eventually, we'll figure out potty training. sigh. i'm adopting rudyinparis' surrendered mothering on this issue!

[Shelley]

Playful support did NOT work for mine. After an initial flurry of excitement about the new potty, she then wouldn't use it for almost a year (!) despite all my attempts to make it fun. At that point, I felt truly unequal to the task -- I felt really inadequate as a mom, and had no idea what to do.

Nearing 3 1/2, my mother came up and helped -- we made it clear to her that if she tried and made progress, we would go to the playground and even (gasp!) to the amusement park; but if she didn't try, she wouldn't be punished but nothing especially fun would happen. After that initial shove, she was on it right away. She got lots of positive support (and a couple of instances where we took her home from the playground or wherever after she crapped her Pull-Up), and candy every time she performed. The whole thing took about a week, and we phased out the candy. She was clearly ready but a bit afraid of failure, so we just had to lead her past that.

About three months after this, she informed me that she didn't want a Pull-Up at night, and has been night-dry with minimal accidents ever since.

[Jen H.]

@Cas - another warning beacon from me, as I had a similar experience with my son this past summer, when he was 3.5. I waited and waited to train him, figuring he'd show signs of readyness or willingness, or interest, or just train himself. Never happened. I waited too long, he was too independent and willful by then, and it was a nightmare all summer and into September. The peeing was fine, the poops were terrible. He'd end up holding them in for several days and then finally pooping his pants. So many pairs of underwear thrown away, let me tell you.

I mostly tried to not stress him out about it, encouraged potty use for poops and didn't get mad when he went in his underwear. He totally knew how, and could when he wanted to, or when I timed it *perfectly* and read to him while he sat so that he was distracted. There was a lot of bribery and rewarding for poops on the potty, and still accidents. Eventually one day he deliberately went and hid for a poop in his pants (not an uncommon scenario all along) and when I found him I freaked out and yelled (not my proudest moment) and got really mad and just went on and on about it for ten minutes. I think that was the last time he pooped his pants, and he's been fine ever since. He even made a sign for the wall in the playroom that says (in doodles, so he tells me) "No Pooping in your Pants" after that day. Our only lasting after-effect is that he still only poops every 3 or 4 days, and I am working on that now. He just turned four.

[Lisa]

Haven't had time to read all the comments, but:

We have one of those who showed a ton of interest at 15 months, led the way himself early on and throughout, was using the potty 3 or 4 times a day at 22 months... and then at 24 months, STOPPED entirely. (Two, anyone?)

Apparently this is quite common - several friends' kids had a similar pattern and just decided to do it one day at around 2 1/2. So I just said OK, and am still hoping for a free pass whenever he decides he's ready.

Although the hiding thing Hedra relates does give me some pause - he's a big hider (though he says "Mommy, hiding!" and always goes to the same place next to my desk... so it may be a different animal).

[Charisse]

@Lisa F. ymmv, but one thing that really worked when Mouse was scared of public potties was for me to sit on it with her--I'd sit (clothed of course) on the back of the seat and then she'd sit over the hole and I'd wrap my arms around her. It seemed to really help, though if you're fastidious it may not be your first choice, lol.

@ Cas-- seriously don't beat yourself up--you're doing awesome!! And B) your situation sounds tailor-made for the "presents" trick that Jan mentioned. We did it last year with a very similar situation (stubborn almost-3 kid, doing pretty well with pee, withholding but would NOT go back to diapers, takes any negativity at all really hard) and it worked like a total charm. The key elements are:

-bowl of *wrapped* presents on the bathroom counter (decide what $ it would be worth to you to have her trained and spread that out over 20 or 30 dimestore presents)
-don't announce it or offer it, wait for the kid to ask
-casually answer questions about it, a la "oh those are your poop presents" and then change the subject
-take yourself out of it if you need to--one of our friends told her daughter those presents came from the Poop Fairy
-once it's working, make sure you always have a "present" in your purse in case

Within 4 days of introducing the bowl, we had potty poopage, frequency increased from every 3 days to once a day, and never again a poop accident or a sleep poop. I found the idea in a Pantley book I think, and bless her for it--we didn't know what on earth to do before that.

[pnuts mama]

charisse!!! the poop fairy!!! I LOVE IT!!!

seriously, is it just me or am i the only one making the connection between holy week and potty training? anyone? no? right.

back to work...the poop fairy. that is awesome.

[Julie]

Another Lazy Parent checking in. Do we get a secret decoder ring with cool swear words we can shout at our kids? I thought Slim's post was freaking hysterical. If "dammit!" wasn't already one of Alex's favorite words, I know I'd be letting more slip out in moments of frustration. I'm actually relieved that's *all* he says.

That being said, I could totally do without potty training. Alex has been hit or miss (hee hee, not literally) wanting to wear underwear sometimes, diapers at others. I'm fine with it I guess, though I *was* thinking of doing another push (what is with the puns today?) over my spring break - 2 weeks of uninterrupted Mommy Time that I can control and keep relatively consistent. He wanted to wear underwear the other day and pooped on the potty all on his own, then the next day back to diapers again. I think he agrees with me.....for us they're just easier. If he's got a big crap in his pants and he's too busy playing, he's totally cool with it in there for a little while. He will say "My mom will change it yater." Um, thanks Bud.

But I do think he's ready so it's more of a question of if I want to dive off the deep end and try again. We had him pretty much pee trained for about 2 weeks.....but lots of poops in pants. Then he pooped in the potty and after that......I think he forgot that he needed to pee in there too. In his little head it was either one or the other. So I (happily) went back to diapers.....it gets old with Mommy chasing after you all over the house saying "Do you have to make a pee pee?" when you are trying to play. And from my point of view....having to follow him all over the house asking that questions?? It was seriously cutting into my Moxie time.

:)

[hedra]

Jen H, I feel for ya. But really, the studies I saw on 'hiders' fit in perfectly with your situation - they aren't EMOTIONALLY ready even when they're physically ready, and they tend to train much more spontaneously around 4 than earlier. So your son is actually very normal for a hider. You managed to convince him that his emotional reactions to pooping weren't as significant as yours, and his therefore could be redefined as non-drivers of his behavior. Not that I think you're recommending that exact method, but that's essentially what happened, yes? And after 3 1/2 is the normal time for hiders to poop-train.

Those others with hiders, it really helps if you deal with the hiding thing first. It was odd praising every poop, but it also helped me spot how subtle negatives (and some not subtle) were creeping into everything related to poop - mainly because B had really painful foul-smelling diarrhea a lot, hard to make that sound joyful. It hurt ME to see how badly he was getting burned sometimes, how could I praise that?? But I did, and he stopped hiding, and then he trained himself.

The poop presents and the poop fairy would probably play right in with that, too. SOMEONE likes your poops, even if you don't.

[hedra]

Julie, you're cracking me up.

[Cas]

@Moxie I have tried to ask Little Bird about the pooping on the potty thing. She resolutely ignores me when I bring it up. I try to sympathize or question or talk about rewards and she just turns away, gets quiet. Tried the bowl of presents thing and it did nothing. She got excited about them but that was it.
She's not a hider but a total "deny deny deny" kid. She will be in the process of pooping and still deny she needs to go. All I can think of that makes sense is that she has never pooped sitting down. I think maybe she thinks it can't be done.
I don't think she'll hit college in diapers but I do worry that she'll hit kindergarten not trained and will suffer socially for it. I have noticed that girls start with the cattiness pretty early (the 4 year old at the play centre hands out stars to wave for "Twinkle Twinkle" and she hyands them out in order....best dressed first.)

[Maria Wood]

A timely post for me, also. P (4.5 yo) has been wearing underwear for looong time (am I a bad mama if I don't remember when she started? A year ago, at least), but is still in a diaper at night. We did (cloth) pullups for a while at night, but basically it got to be a pain… when she peed it soaked through into the bed, but it didn't help her get up in the middle of the night, so we went back to diapers.

The problem is, she can't stand having a wet diaper on… even just a tiny bit damp. So a) we go through a lot of diapers because she demands a new one sometimes minutes after putting one on. Yes, I encourage her to pee in the toilet before putting on the diaper. She does it, but it doesn't seem to help.

And b) she takes off her diaper in the middle of the night, and sometimes (like last night) she then pees in the bed later. Like last night: at 4am she said "Oh MAN! The bed's all WET!" (it was pretty funny, really. I have no idea where she got the 'oh man' expression, as it's not one I use, but she says it pretty frequently). Somehow she managed to get EVERY article of bedclothes wet. And since we cosleep, it was my bed. Ugh.

So I see pretty clearly, I should have a pile of clean diapers next to the bed so when she rips off the wet one in the middle of the night I can throw a new one on her. I don't think she's able to know she has to pee and wake up beforehand. Added to this problem is the fact that our only bathroom is down a twisty set of stairs from the bedroom, so it requires waking up fairly completely to navigate it safely. This brings up the spectre to me of her waking up to pee in the bathroom and then being Awake! Ready to hang out! Want to play cards or something!?

I have always been in the 'I'd rather change diapers than clean up or make an Issue of it' camp.

[hedra]

Cas, that sounds a bit like R. I think M did a bit of it as well, but definitely R. She'd be grunting and straining but if you asked if she was pooping, she'd shake her head no. I stopped asking, and just said, 'Pooping?' then made a 'yeah, I understand' face, and left her to it. She is also a stand (not squat) pooper, and up to about two weeks ago (when she was added to the list of Fructose Malaborbing kids in the house), heavily constipated almost always. Oh, and she's way into privacy. She wants privacy even in public, at times. The leaving her to it, not looking in her direction, kind of 'privacy in public' thing, seems to help.

R's not trained yet. She's the last one down. She's not emotionally ready, I suspect, maybe because she isn't happy *about* pooping. She doesn't want to have to poop, she'd rather pretend she isn't, hasn't, or won't have to later either. However, getting her more comfortable (physically, by diet change), and mentally (by doing more 'say bye' before flushing it type activities, asking her if she wants privacy, etc.), seems to be easing her mind slightly. I'm still not putting on any pressure, just trying to keep myself and her on one side of the line, and the problem on the other side, so we're in it together instead of at it against each other. It feels better that way, anyway.

Good luck!

[messy]

I bought a potty when little one was 10 months and stuck him on it in the mornings when i went to the bathroom and after naps. he's been pooping in ever since, 1st thing in the morning. He's 13 months. I haven't had a poopy diaper for months. Who knows what the heck is going on in his head but it sure is nice...

[Lisa]

Thanks, all - I think I'm going to address the hiding thing as you suggested. Even if I don't think it's a negative for T, it can't hurt to be more celebratory in general, right? Woo, poop!

And I do sense he's not yet emotionally ready - he's a bit of a perfectionist, and very inner-driven (um, like his mom). He wants to do it, do it when *he's* ready, and do it right - as he defines "right." I'm OK with that.

And a funny moment, for those with hiders:

You know that page in the Dr. Seuss book _There's a Wocket in My Pocket_ where "there's a JERTAIN (hiding) in the CURTAIN"? The other day T. pointed to it and said "He has a poopy diaper!"

[Renee]

Hi everybody, I'm a new reader. Love the blog.
My 18mo daughter decided on Friday that she wanted to use the potty and did it twice for the daycare ladies that day (thank heaven for the daycare ladies). I was at the store when they called to celebrate the first time, so I bought a potty seat for the big toilet for consistency with the way they do it at the daycare. She tinkled twice for us over the weekend and even pooped there Saturday. I read books and held her; she was obviously concerned about it. Much cheering, clapping, and "proud of you"s, then in celebration she got to flush her poo. Three times.
Her daddy and I take no credit for this whatsoever and felt completely unprepared for the situation, truth be told.
The bean has been in cloth diapers with wicking liners (they feel damp but not wet when she pees) since birth. Since the diapers are side snap with separate liners I am so far still using her diapers, but need to make a call how to phase through this. The daycare wanted pull-ups, but since her diapers are basically exactly like cloth training pants with waterproof outers and can be pulled down without unsnapping, I asked them to keep using those. We are putting them on already snapped like pull-ups, not lying down like diapering. We can drop the liner when she is getting better at asking to go, then transition to big girl underwear.
Since she is so young I get the impression that her goal is to be clean and dry, not to "be a big girl". We haven't tried naked time at all, but I figure we'll do diaper+babylegs and a shirt as the at-home uniform for now. Can any cloth diapering mamas comment as to what, if anything, was different for them?
We are really trying not to screw this up, since she initiated it herself.

[Charisse]

Cas, that is definitely frustrating--I'm sorry the "magic trick" that worked for us didn't work for you. I just wanted to post again with empathy--I too was brought to tears by the whole thing before we found the right trick at the right time. I was sure Mouse would never train, and I was sure it was my fault. Now (just a little over a year later), I really never think about it. You and your daughter will get there and you're doing great.

[Maria Wood]

Oh great. We have only ONE diaper in the house tonight, and I don't know what to do. P says she wants to wear underwear and she'll just wake up to pee, but I don't believe her. She says "I'm NOT taking a diaper, I'm NOT taking pullups, I'm ONLY wearing underwear". She swears she regularly wakes up, goes downstairs, and pees, and I just don't know it because I'm asleep. I don't want to disempower her, but it's just not true.

Yikes.

[Slim]

Maria --

Get her up in the middle of the night to use the potty.

Chances are, she won't remember in the morning.

[Cas]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and most of all the empathy. It's amazing how much more endurable it is when I know that someone else out there is pulling out their hair over their kid's poop. Not to be mean. Just saying it's nice to not feel alone.

Hedra, I will remember what you said about keeping both her and I one one side of the line and the problem on the other so that we're in it together. I just about cried when I read that. I think that as tired as I am of washing out poopy training pants, I'm more tired of feeling at odds with my daughter. So thank you. So. Much.

[paola]

Sorry that I'm late with this thread.

I'm with Slim too. I stupidly tried when he wasn't ready ( twice ) and it was disappointing (and messy) for the two of us.

I realised the moment he was though 'cos he was waking up with dry nappies and then I'd plonk him on the toilet and...voila. Only from them on did I bother taking his nappies off him while at home and that then progressed to when we went out etc etc.

We have had a little set back recently though ( he turned 3 in January). He started sleeping at kindergarten recently and sleeps much less than he does at home. If he isn't too tired he manages to hold on even if he has to go, but when extremely tired he just lets go when he sleeps and as he also has the childhood equivalent to Irritable Bowel Syndrome ( the ped gave it a specific name which I have forgotten unfortunately), it is often very sudden.