Jessica writes:
"Since my daughter was born 9 months ago, I've dreaded dealing with this particular issue. My mother-in-law is a chain-smoker (one is lit at all times) and fills her house with cigarette smoke and scented candles, thinking that the candles mitigate the smell of the smoke. It does not in any way. I've dutifully visited her with my husband before I was pregnant and even during my pregnancy for short visits, but now that my baby is born, I feel so strongly that I do not want to expose my child to the secondhand smoke. My MIL would not smoke in the baby's presence, but the second-hand smoke is in the air regardless. It hangs in the air and is unavoidable.
There are many problems here. My husband thinks we should just bring the baby and visit her "to keep the peace." He is afraid of rocking the boat, of confronting her on this issue. (She is also an alcoholic and her family enables her bad habits. No one wants to confront her because she is irrational and makes her family members feel guilty for not taking care of her). My husband understands that secondhand smoke is terrible to be exposed to, but he sees little harm in short visits. It is causing lots of tension between us. I just want him to advocate for our child, and he says that by doing so, he would effectively end the relationship between us and his mother. He is so torn and I feel terribly for him because he feels he has to choose between his mother or me and our baby.
Part of me dies when I think of exposing my daughter's little body to a known carcinogen just to "keep the peace." I even talked with her pediatrician at her 6-month visit who said that my MIL should just visit us at our house and that we should not expose our baby to second-hand smoke. My MIL only lives one hour away but acts like we live across the country and does not want to make the drive to our house.
We have gotten away with not visiting her thus far because our baby vehemently hated car rides as a small infant and we just said we weren't traveling with her anywhere. But my MIL knows that the baby is getting better in the car and is pressuring us to bring her out for a visit.The other key issue is that my MIL and I do not have a good relationship and never have, and I am afraid that this is going to set us back even farther. For the sake of my husband and my daughter, I want to have a functional relationship with my MIL.
Am I being too over-protective? Is my mother bear instinct getting in the way of what's right in terms of family? Do I just suck it up and bring my baby over there? Or can I stand my ground and say that it is not right to expose our daughter to the second-hand smoke, even at her grandmother's expense? I truly want to foster a relationship between my daughter and her grandmother, but my daughter's health is (and should be!) my priority.
Please help."
This is definitely a rock and a hard place. If your daughter was 10, you could deal with the smoke for a very brief visit. But so many of her body systems are still developing. OTOH, this could be the final rift between your family and your husband's mother, and it sounds like your husband just isn't willing to stand up to his mother.
First off, when the dust settles on this, you might try to get your husband in to see a counselor with you about some of the issues with his mom. Or at the very least try to get him to go to an Al-Anon meeting or two. Growing up with an alcoholic is serious business, and is going to affect his instincts and parenting in so many ways that it'll be the best investment he could ever make in his daughter's well-being to get some clarity on how he's been hurt by his mom's addictions and how he can recover from that.
Now. There's got to be a weaselly way around this so you don't have to put the hammer down without support. Could you go see them but meet someplace else? "We really want to take you out for a special brunch because of everything you do for us." Or could you stall for a few more months until the weather is warm and then go but stay outside the entire time? "Our pediatrician says the fresh air is the best thing for her at this age."
You really can't go and put your daughter into the smokehouse. Your pediatrician advises against it. And, frankly, anything that makes you feel like part of you dies just thinking about it is something you shouldn't do, even if no one else backs you up.
Readers, any way around this one? She needs to keep the peace (at least at this point), but not expose her daughter to the house.
(Is anyone else thinking that this question is more difficult even than the one about the pot-smoking grandparents? What is it with flaming sticks and in-laws?)
Another option that might be annoying, but also workable, is to have your DH go pick up the grandma and bring her to your place (or a third location) for a weekend 'getaway' (staying at a hotel? even if it is 'at' your place). It means a long drive for him, but it also extracts the 'your house smells of smoke' issue.
I'm very serious about the second-hand smoke. My step-dad was not a chain-smoker, and his habit varied (he even quit a number of times) but I still ended up with asthma.
The other thing that concerns me especially with girls is that girls exposed to second-hand smoke in early childhood have a higher miscarriage rate as adults. That kind of complex and profound physiological implication hits home, especially as I've had six miscarriages. It may be something your DH can 'hear' better than 'exposure to carcinogen' - it's not just risk of cancer, here, it's risk of profoundly heartbreaking experiences as a woman and mother herself, possibly repeatedly. With a new baby himself, he may be able to 'hear' that more.
I very very very seriously ditto the Al-anon or counseling recommendation. If he's not ready for that, I'd go with the book 'An Adult Child's Guide to What's Normal' - that book was a huge help for me learning to set boundaries. My parents weren't alcoholics, but my dad was raised by and around them, my step-mom (who I didn't live with but visited) was an alcoholic, and it affected (and still affects) my siblings and myself even without the direct constant contact. Just stick it in the bathroom and remove all other reading materials. It's good reading for anyone whose parents were not entirely present - depression, other mental illness, alcohol or drugs, workaholics, etc., etc. (It's aimed at people already well into recovery, but IMHO it can be a stepping stone into recovery/counseling, as well.)
I hear the struggle there, Jessica, and I know it's hard. You want for your DH to be whole and able to be himself, not codependent. My mom wanted the same with my dad, and didn't get it. He did eventually get into counseling (two wives later), and it really made a difference with all his relationships, including the parent-child ones. So again, counseling is a good place to go - you can always do it now as a 'way to get into a good place to parent'.
(On codependency, 'Co-dependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself' by Melody Beattie is another good one, and it isn't just for those who 'control by action' but also those who evade action or retreat in order to keep the system at least 'the same' in the face of changes being usually catastrophic issues - though there are tons of books on codependency, it was GREAT for guilt and shame attacks, the paralysis of action stuff, and also rage and fear attacks... life altering for me, though I read it as a teen so I was in a receptive zone).
Um, anyway, that's another layer of action. For now, where he has no spine on this, you will have to. You can't rescue the relationship if it is a dangerous one. Get the books for yourself, and set the boundaries so your daughter learns how to maintain her own on your model. Use 'neutral territory' as much as possible while you're working through the ticklish stuff. Rely on 'the doctor says' to keep the boundaries neutral if you must, but consider where you need to say 'I'm the mommy, and these are the rules.'
I love my own IL's, and they're really very functional people. And yet I still had to say at one point, 'if you do not stop that, you'll find yourself seeing your grandkids less often.' I am the gatekeeper, here. I am the mommy. My rules apply. Period. (Granted, my DH is also on my team, which makes it much easier. It still has to be done, though.)
Posted by: hedra | March 27, 2008 at 06:36 AM
This is so hard. Jessica, I am so sorry you are having to go through this.
You might do some research on the effects of second-hand smoke, even in small amounts, and show what you find to your husband. I think your hesitation is exactly right -- you absolutely cannot bring your girl to your MIL's home, under any circumstances. Full stop. (And though I usually agree with Moxie, I have to disagree here -- even if your girl was 10, I still would think you should not bring her to MIL's house.)
You might find you have to have a heart-to-heart with your husband about the larger issue of his mom, too. He may really have to choose between his mother and you and your girl. That would be a terrible, painful choice, but it may come to that. I second the suggestions about counseling and Al-Anon. Unfortunately these issues don't go away on their own.
One last thing -- you might show your husband this Moxie post and the comments.
Good luck with all this.
Posted by: Helen | March 27, 2008 at 07:04 AM
my mom always says, when you have a kid people should come to YOu as your the one with the kid/baby and its more a hassle for you to travel etc. Wish you could pull that rule on her and keep the smoking conversation underwraps. That doesnt help much I am sure, i do hope you find a solution! If i was you I most certainly would not take my child into that environment. I'm sorry your being pinned between what you know is best for your baby and what you know your husband wants, thats an awful place to be!
Posted by: pixie | March 27, 2008 at 07:08 AM
Hi Jessica, you've got a tough one here haven't you ?!
I have had a rather unusual idea that might help....(lying beside DD while she nurses to sleep usually does that to me!!)
What do you think about turning it around and taking the blame on yourselves in a way - could you say that your Paed has some small concerns that your DD is showing some signs of asthma/coughing/weak lungs (insert problem of choice here) and he told you she can't be near any smoke/fumes/etc at all. You could even take it a bit further and say that the 'problem' comes from your side of the family (she'll love that!) Then, you could be all - 'we'd love to come and visit but we have the problem of where to have our visit, we know how you love your candles and you shouldn't have to be without those .. yada yada yada.
I'm not phrasing this very well, I'm sorry.
Basically, make it that the problem is yours, and nothing to do with her at all. She will want to be more helpfull if she feels no-one is attacking her and her habits. You could even put her in charge of finding suitable venues - "where do you think we'd be safe to go, we're so new and hopeless at this and you're so fabulous and experienced" blah blah blah.
I know it would stick in my craw to do it, but this (or a variation of this that you are comfortable with) takes all the pressure of MIL and your DH and makes you, your DD and the Paed the bad guys !
Hope this makes sense, it's late here in Oz !
Posted by: Lisa | March 27, 2008 at 07:17 AM
I vote for putting it on the doctor. Any doctor would back you up on this.
Posted by: shirky | March 27, 2008 at 07:36 AM
Oh, I feel for you! My daughter is three months old, and in my situation, it's my mom who's the smoker. I started worrying about secondhand smoke when I was pregnant (I grew up in a smoking house but never realized how awful it smelled until I went away to college and came back for visits), but whenever someone was about to light up, I simply left the room for the opposite side of the house or the backyard. It wasn't long before my mom stopped smoking around me altogether.
Now that Kara is here, she's over the moon about being a grandma and has respected our wish that nobody smoke around the baby, so we feel comfortable visiting for a few hours when we're in town (every month or so). If she wouldn't have done that, we simply would have asked her to visit us at my sister's house, which is non-smoking.
It all depends on your comfort level. In our case, my mother is willing to do whatever it takes to have a relationship with her granndaughter (except quit, but what can you do?), and I want that for them. I admit that Kara's still getting some exposure, but it's very small, and it's the only time she's ever around it, so I can deal. Then again, my mother does most of her smoking in the kitchen, so we don't ever hang out with Kara in the kitchen because it always smells. The living room is pretty neutral, and they just put in new carpet, so at least I know there's not years of smoke blanketing the fabric.
Good luck with whatever you decide!
Posted by: Frema | March 27, 2008 at 07:57 AM
@hedra - I had no idea about the link between early childhood exposure to smoke and later miscarriages. This may explain a lot about my reproductive history.
We struggle with this issue as well. My father has smoked heavily his entire life, but was well trained by my mother to not smoke around us. He NEVER smoked in the house (ironically, a lot of my childhood exposure came from hanging out in my maternal uncle and grandmother's extrmemly smokey house). My stepmother has been a smoker forever, and refuses to comprehend any dangers to it. She has always smoked around her children, and still refuses to believe it had any impact even when her younger child is the poster child for a child who grew up around smokers - he's partially deaf, asthmatic, has severe allergies and learning disabilities. Oy.
They live 12 hours away by car, and are unable to visit us for several reasons (some of which are understandable). When my daughter was born, we were very clear with them that they could not smoke around the kids or in the house when we visited. My father complies with no problem. My stepmother, not so much. She lights up immediately after we've left the room, and if we come back before she finished her cigarette, she holds it away from the child (as if that's doing anything). When she does this, my husband picks up the kid(s) and says, "sorry, they can't play with you while you're smoking" There is one bedroom in their house that's a little isolated from the air circulation of the house, and we insist on sleeping in that one so that we aren't exposed to the smoke coming through the vents after we go to bed.
What we have tried to do is schedule most of our visits in the summer, because they'll naturally go and smoke on the patio if the weather is nice, so there's less smoke in the house.
I am so conflicted about this, and feel for both you and your husband. I am quite certain that I would not put up with this behavior from anyone other than my own family. It's difficult for me to say we won't visit at all, because I hate the idea of my children having no relationship wit their grandfather, and I hate punishing my father for my stepmother's behavior (he happily complies with our rules and scolds her when she smokes around the kids). We have ended up comprimising and visiting mostly in warmer months when we can spend time outside, and trying to choose times to visit when my stepmother will be out of town or otherwise busy. The kids do still end up being exposed to some smoke during the visits, but it is very minimal, and since they live otherwise smoke-free lives (we live in a no smoking in restaurants state, and our town is pretty antismoking), their exposure is verrry minimal.
That's how I justify it to myself, but I still feel horrible about the situation both about exposing my kids to ANY smoke, and about depriving them of a better relationship with my dad by limiting their visits to once or twice a year and only a weekend (as a child I would spend 2-3 days a week with one grandma, and weeks at a time with the other, so it feels awful that my kids barely know their grandfathers - and both grandmothers are dead)
I think it's much easier as an in-law to draw a line in the sand. My SIL (husband's side) forbade her kids from visiting her MIL for about 4 years, until the MIL agreed not to smoke around them. My husband has no qualms about correcting my stepmother's behavior and taking them away if she smokes in the house. I really struggle with these things, because I know how much I love my dad (smoking and crazy wife and all) and I want my kids to love him as much as I do.
Anyway, I know I'll be in the small, unpopular minority here in allowing my kids to have even minimal smoke exposure, but wanted to give a different perspective. I'm not saying that my choice is the correct one - in fact, I'm crying just writing this post - but that I understand why your husband is having a difficult time with this.
And I'm definitely going to tell my stepmother about the miscarriage link. Maybe that'll get her.
Posted by: SUE | March 27, 2008 at 08:05 AM
SUE: I thought *I'd* be the only one! We must've hit "Publish" at the same time.
It's so sad we have to worry about this. In this day and age, I honestly can't believe anybody still smokes. And Hedra's miscarriage statistic? Absolutely frightening!
Posted by: Frema | March 27, 2008 at 08:19 AM
One other thing to look up -- I believe I read a few years ago several studies showing that the dangerous chemicals in cigarette smoke cling to clothing and furniture. So simply not smoking around the kids may not be good enough for some parents.
I don't mean to scare anyone -- please do your own research to confirm. I throw this out there only to give more ammo to anyone who really wants to make the "you are hurting my kids" argument to someone who is a smoker and wants a relationship with your kids.
Posted by: Helen | March 27, 2008 at 08:33 AM
I know what it's like to have a 'sick' MIL to deal with. Mine suffers from various mental illnesses and so you really can not say anything to her or she just gets even more irrational. I live about 2 meters away ( she lives in her apartment under us)and so see her about oh, 7 times a day. Things have gotten better over time though and perhaps she has changed for the better for the sake of her grandchildren, but I got particularly clingy when my first child was born and didn't want her anywhere near him. In the end, I realised she had as much right to him as my own mother did (even if my mum lives on the other side of the world) and if she wasn't dangerous ( she isn't) she was no harm to him.
We are at the best we have ever been at the moment. We need each other. I would be stuck at home all day with two nightmare children with no one ever to leave them with. My kids just love her ( my daughter's second word was 'nonna')and she has definitely gotten better with the contact with the kids and the more harmonious living conditions.
Posted by: paola | March 27, 2008 at 08:34 AM
Oh dear -- I posted my second comment without reading Sue's comments. Sue, I hope I did not make you feel worse. I did not intend to. I totally understand why you have made the choices you have.
My apologies if my second comment (or my first, for that matter), was upsetting to you.
Posted by: Helen | March 27, 2008 at 08:40 AM
Yikes, sticky situation! Here's something that's worked for us when my FIL visits (he's not a smoker but my daughter really doesn't care for him): time the visit with your MIL with your daughter's most active time of the day, then insist on going outside (" is just so energetic, we can't coop her up inside, let's go for a walk and show her the swings at the park"). Even bring along a new or special outdoor toy, something like a big ball that just doesn't work indoors. Then, when you're outside, your husband can visit with his mom while you entertain your daughter...and switch off responsibilities if you wish.
Another thing that's worked for us (a variation on the above) is to invite your MIL to do something with your family. We regularly take my daughter swimming and occasionally invite my FIL along. He doesn't go swimming but he watches from the sidelines and gets to see her 'in action'.
Hope this helps!
Posted by: heather | March 27, 2008 at 09:14 AM
Jessica, this is a really hard one for so many reasons. I'm sorry that you guys are going through this. Family issues are so exhausting. As you read here, you are going to find almost as many suggestions as posts on how to handle the situation. Ultimately, I think you and your husband need to step back and look at your big picture- decided what are your top priorities as a couple and as parents, your deal breakers etc. and then work back from there. If having a relationship with your MIL is tops then you need to find a way to make the visits work (lots of suggestions already given and many coming, I"m sure). If it's protecting your daughter from second hand smoke, then I would suggest giving yourself permission to upset other people and do what you think is best for your child.
We have dealt with a lot of family dysfunction over the years and it is super hard. For you, it's not just the smoking but also the alcoholism and a strained relationship. Once we had children, my husband and I found that we had to change the way we related to various family members. We could tolerate certain things as adults but not for our children. I like what Hedra said about being the gatekeeper. That's exactly how I feel: we decide who/what etc. reaches our children. I have found it easier to take a stand on certain issues when they are going to negatively impact our children or go against our family values. We feel like part of our job is to say no to family dysfunctions and to choose health for our children. Kind of like putting a stake in the ground that says addictions, guilt, enmeshment (whatever the issue) stops with us. It was really hard the first few times we had to say no or speak up etc. but it has gotten easier and I'm so happy to say there has been really positive change happening (in both us and our families).
These are tough problems to navigate. Blessings on you and your family.
Posted by: Rachel | March 27, 2008 at 09:47 AM
My first thought was the same as a pp... your husband should go pick up the MIL and bring her to your house. People tend to respect rules more when their in other people's space. Living an hour away is not that far.
I would be hesitant about driving to where they live and meeting up somewhere neutral. It would be so easy for the MIL to say.. "oh, just come over to my house for a few minutes" and it would be really hard to refuse. Before you know it your little baby has had 2 hours worth of smoke exposure.
I know relationships are so important, but so is health. People end friendships over things like drugs and alcohol. I know it is different when it is your own MOTHER/MIL, but if she can't respect your wishes on this extremely important issue, how can you ever truly have a productive relationship. You have a 9 month old baby to care for, and that comes with a lot of responsability. Your MIL was a mother - she knows that.
You can't help everyone. The only person you can really help is your daughter.
Posted by: Allison | March 27, 2008 at 09:48 AM
I think you shouldn't bring your kid into that house at all, but should make efforts to meet your MIL near her home. Is there a kid-friendly destination near her, like a children's museum or a zoo? Some areas have indoor playspaces and playgrounds are great if the weather is nice. Even a mall could work.
If she lives in a more remote area, perhaps you could find a nearby friend or relative to host your visits. Maybe your MIL has a friend who doesn't have grandchildren but who would love to have you guys all over once a month. You could keep a box of toys there or something and bring lunch for everyone.
Posted by: Treena | March 27, 2008 at 09:48 AM
We have some of the family issues, though not the smoking exactly (my MIL smoked cigars next to me while at my shower!). My husband has a strained relationship with his mother. Though he loves to rock the boat. What we do is to try and pick a nuetral territory and ask everyone to meet us there when we visit. It is a 4 hr drive and we have alot of family/friends in the area. Because it would be unfair for us to run to each place. But everyone is welcome at our home.
I love the idea of the previous poster to take the blame on your side, make it an exsisting medical issue.
I think you should give her options. Like we can come visit, can we meet up at x place (or go for longer, rent a hotel room and invite her there). Or say she can come visit you, or possibly your husband pick her up, and drive her back. All of those I think - keep the peace but wont break your heart as far as your daughter is concerned.
If as a seperate (but clearly related issue) you want your husband to make a stand about all of this and enabling his mom vs. your daughter's wellfare... then I would treat it as a different issue.
I think the advice posted above it all great!
Posted by: sheSaid | March 27, 2008 at 09:52 AM
My mom is a smoker and she simply smokes outside when we visit. I have never had to ask her to do this, she just knew that my sister and I would not want our kids around smoke.
Is it not an option for the MIL to smoke outside when she has visitors? Of course, she would need to smoke outside for a few hours before everyone visits to clear the air. I am also wondering if an air purifier would not be in order as well.
I disagree with all the comments about telling white lies - that just makes it more complicated! Why go to all that trouble when a simple statement to the effect that pediatrician said to keep the baby away from smoke would suffice? Regardless of what is said, the MIL is going to be upset and feel guilty. It is better to just keep it simple and stick to one's guns, rather than get all fancy with white lies.
I think all the other comments about Al-Anon are excellent. The smoking issue with the MIL is obviously just a small, teeny part of a much bigger problem. The reader's husband cannot change his mother, but kudos to him if he can change patterns in his life to ensure he does not repeat them for his daughter. I know for me, that has been one of the hardest aspects of being a parent - making sure I try to change emotional dances that I was a participating in.
Boy, having a kid is such a positive impetus for change!
Posted by: cagey | March 27, 2008 at 09:53 AM
My MIL quit smoking after 40 years, so there's a tiny hope there that if she can quit, anyone can.
She and my FIL are, however, alcoholics. He's pretty high-functioning, she's a mean drunk.
Luckily, my DH (despite his own issues growing up with an alcoholic) backs me up on my stance to not have them babysit our child. My DS loves them, and we see them often, but I would never leave him alone with them. (We'll also have to explain the drinking to him when he's old enough to notice.)
It's very difficult to deal with IL's like this. Like Paola, my family is thousands of miles away, so these are the only grandparents my DS will know well. OTOH, if my MIL was still a chain smoker, there is no way I would expose my DS to that. But I do know the delicate dance of sticking to your guns without offending them.
I'm sure there are fabulous MILs out there, right? I hope I can be one when my DS gets married. ;o)
Posted by: meggiemoo | March 27, 2008 at 10:02 AM
I have family history with many of these issues and I think the really important thing to remember when making decisions as a family (you and your husband) for everyone's well being is that it is not you who is making your husband choose between his mother and you - it's her. Offering alternatives is wonderful and I'm not trying to discourage you from trying to continue having some relationship, but ultimately she is making the choice if the only way a visit will happen is in her home. And I mean inside her home.
The other thing I thought of though is driving - if she is an alcoholic is it really possible for her to get to you? I am not advocating enabling, but rather a simple planning so that she is not encouraged to drive if she is an alcoholic. Just a thought.
With my own difficult family, I personally have come to the conclusion that they are always welcome and that I will make certain efforts but that is it. If there is no contact, it is on their part and I can someday say to my children with a clear conscience that I did the best I could and their grandparents were always welcome.
Good luck - this won't be easy.
Posted by: anonymous | March 27, 2008 at 10:03 AM
I really don't think you should make something up about previous health issues on your side--something like that could end up biting you in the a** a few years down the line.
There have already been quite a few good ideas about how to meet up not in her home and I don't really have any new ones to add, but I do have something to say about your relationship with your MIL.
I've always had a rocky relationship with my MIL. It has improved drastically in the last few years, although it is nowhere near stellar and probably will never be. At the beginning, I wanted my husband to 'fix' things, to stand up for me, etc. I realized, after many years of it not working--partly because he wouldn't to the degree that I would have liked--I had to do something. It was *my* relationship with her and *her* relationship with me that was the problem. She and her son already had an established relationship that they were both happy with. I had to bite the bullet and confront her. We had a huge long conversation about it, with me basically saying 'we need to make this work for the sake of my husband and our future children--how can we do this?' (And then learned that her expectations of me were *way* too high--she wanted things I don't even do with my own mother.) Anyway, it was hard, but I realized that I had to stop hiding behind my husband's relationship with her and deal with her straight on.
I don't know if that is something you can do, but when it comes to your child's health, it might not hurt to be the bad guy. I would suggest talking with her, telling her yours and your doctor's concern and ask how the two of you can fix this together. You might not be up for it yet, but maybe consider it as an option anyway.
Good luck!
Posted by: m | March 27, 2008 at 10:08 AM
Oh. My. God.
Jessica's MIL and my own mother could be twins. Alcoholic, chain-smoking, guilt-inducing twins. I also have a terrible time standing up to my mother, so I know well where Jessica's husband is coming from. Even so, I think Jessica is in the right, and she shouldn't back down. Some sort of manageable compromise can be reached, there have already been a ton of great suggestions, and her husband has to find a way to come to terms with whatever guilt or bad feelings result. Again, I say this as someone who is in the very same position; it's hard, but the kid comes first.
Also, just to comment on "airing out the house" - when you have someone who chain smokes indoors day in and day out, especially if you're talking about a small apartment, there is no amount of "airing out" that does the job for tiny lungs. That cigarette stench still hovers in the air, coats the furniture, lingers in the carpet...
My mother is also polite enough to take her butts outside when we visit and she even opens the windows, but it hardly matters, because she smokes constantly indoors every other day of her life. I still get a headache the moment I walk in her door, so I really wonder what it does to my son.
As for a good solution, we really haven't come up with one yet, so I'll be following this with interest. My mother lives a thousand miles away from me, and in her alcoholic/selfish state, she refuses to travel. So we always have to go to her, which we do a couple of times a year. I'd rather not, but I'm trying to keep peace in the family. We stay in a hotel and take my mother out - out to eat, out on walks, out anywhere - as much as possible, to avoid the smoke. But we'll inevitably have 10 minutes here or there when we'll be at her house. I'm not comfortable with it, even in those short doses, but it's the best I've been able to do.
When I talk to Mom about her smoking and the baby, her response is to only dig in her heels harder. She tells me again and again, "I don't understand why you sleep in a hotel when you visit," even though I've talked about the smoke until I'm blue in the face. She wants me to feel bad, and she succeeds. I feel terrible that she never gets any sleepovers with her grandson. But she's been invited to my home a thousand times - I'll even pay for the tickets - and she won't come. At the end of the day, I have to let her take responsibility for her own lousy choices.
Before our last visit, an aunt of mine suggested that Mom smoke outside only for a week or two before we arrived. My mother's response? No way. She said, "I need to be comfortable when I have my cigarette."
Of course, she can do what she wants in her own living space. But I don't have to ask my child to pay the consequences.
Posted by: stacy | March 27, 2008 at 10:12 AM
I agree with whoever said it's ultimately your MIL's decision, not yours. If she's not willing to come to some sort of compromise (along the lines of ideas mentioned here) and put in a little bit of effort in order to see her granddaughter, then you don't want her in your daughter's life anyway. That sounds harsh, and I doubt it will come to that, but that's the bottom line as I see it...why would you want people in your daughter's life who care so little for her that they're willing to damage her health?
Posted by: Maggie | March 27, 2008 at 10:21 AM
just wanted to add my support to the chorus of folks who come from long lines of alcohol/drug abuse in their families as well as smokers. and my husband and i both used to smoke, so i'm not even judging how hard it is to quit (when you want to), or want to change your lifestyle if you see what you do as a personal choice.
we've been able to keep the pnut of of most homes with smoke in them, but it is hard to not insult someone and not bring her into a house where there are smokers sometimes. i don't know, i guess we just weigh the risk of her being exposed to second hand smoke for an hour or so every year to what it's like to live in an area with air pollution in general. i worry about the pesticides/chemicals in her food supply and water and soil quite a bit more, i'm afraid.
i wish i had better advice- we're off to see the babybean and see if he's any closer to coming to join us soon (please no), but i do have some experience with growing up in a family of addiction, and how that can effect you as an adult, so i'll post more this afternoon!
Posted by: pnuts mama | March 27, 2008 at 10:30 AM
@hedra, I never knew about the parental smoking-miscarriage connection. It might explain a lot about my fertility and my three miscarriages. Both my mother, father and stepfather were all chain smokers.
I agree with the pp'ers about the possibility of two compromises: 1. meeting her at a half-way point to do "something special" or 2. having your DH pick up his mother and bring her to your house where she could at least step outside to have her smoke.
I also second-third-fourth! the therapy/al-anon meeting recommendation. My father was a serious but high functioning alcoholic for 40 years until finally, finally getting and staying sober. My mother and stepdad weren't drinkers but did pot. Everyone generally didn't have a good sense of what boundaries were so 7 years of therapy and frequent al-anon meetings helped me realize that my childhood was not normal. I knew some of that when I would visit my friends homes were people were more conventional/normal/sane but it didn't take until I went through therapy.
I'm sorry you have to deal with this right now. The first 6 months of babyhood are hard enough without having to deal with family trauma and drama.
Posted by: jenniferh | March 27, 2008 at 10:51 AM
Stacy...make that triplets. My MIL was also an alcoholic, chain-smoking mentally ill woman as well. I think the advice above is great for dealing with her, but I also agree with Moxie that you should encourage your husband in a gentle way to deal with his own issues with growing up with a woman who put her needs and addictions before her children's needs and physical/mental health. Therapy has helped both my husband and myself better understand the many ways he was deeply hurt by her behavior and helped me understand better what he needs from me as his wife. It's not a normal relationship and we've had to make many adjustments over the years to repair damage done by her. I wish you luck and encourage you to stand firm in your decision that it's not good for your baby. It's a fine line you walk here, so try to do what you can to make sure she is able to save as much face as possible while at the same time making sure you do what you know is right for your child.
Posted by: Julie | March 27, 2008 at 10:53 AM
@helen
no, you didn't insult me or hurt my feelings. The funny thing is, with everyone in the world except my father, I react exactly the same as everyone else who says they would never let their child spend time in the smokey house. Ah, hypocrisy (on my part, I mean)...
Posted by: SUE | March 27, 2008 at 10:53 AM
@Sue --
Thanks for your response. I'm glad you were not hurt by what I said.
And I don't see your willingness to take your kids to your father's house as hypocrisy. You love your dad. You want there to be a relationship.
Life is very complicated, and never perfect. Good luck with this issue!
Posted by: Helen | March 27, 2008 at 11:01 AM
Mother of pearl, people like your MIL drive me crazy.
First off, I'll echo the chorus of people suggesting Al-Anon for your husband (and you, too) and also counseling, if possible.
I really don't have any further suggestions for the logistics of navigating a visit with her. Everyone here has said useful things. I would like to say, though, that I sure hope that someday when I'm a grandmom that I remember that I serve at the pleasure of my daughters and their partners. I mean, my step-MIL is pretty evil and unbearable and I'm always baffled by her sense of entitlement when it comes to her "grandkids" (it's difficult for me to even refer to my children as her grandchildren. She doesn't have any children of her own and lives far away, thank God.)--DH and I have said to each other, grimly, "Doesn't she know we have no obligation to her?" I wouldn't cut my kids out of her life out of petty spite, but I do believe grandparents and in-laws are required to remember that parents are, as Hedra put it, the gatekeepers and that it may perhaps behoove them not to be utter assholes to said parents.
Anyway. Jessica, I don't think you're being over-protective. You're keeping an eye on your internal compass, as you should.
@ Stacy, my heart goes out to you. I hope you and your Mom have some breakthrough.
And, lastly, I should say that my actual MIL, not step-MIL, my actualy MIL is one of the most amazing, wonderful human beings I've ever known, and one of the best friends I'll ever have. So they are out there!
Posted by: rudyinparis | March 27, 2008 at 11:04 AM
Just wanted to add my voice to the people who suggest putting the burden on the pediatrician. I've known many doctors who have said, "blame me for whatever you have to say to keep you and your child healthy." Jessica, you are in the right about this.
I think the best solution (of many good ones) offered so far is the husband-pick-up solution - as long as MIL doesn't smoke in the car, even with the window open. And maybe even then, they can meet you and your daughter for brunch someplace neutral with a no-smoking policy.
Good luck. Your instincts are right on.
Posted by: Emily | March 27, 2008 at 11:30 AM
OK- your husband is NOT going to do anything that feels like giving up on his mother...even if that would be the right and healthy thing to do. Worse, if he views this issue as one of a long series of complaints you have about his mother, then you are in a rut where he is unlikely to take your concerns seriously.
There are five children of alcoholics in my family and I see that they each have serious problems with interpersonal things like feeling inappropriately guilty and needing to control other people.
I suggest that you find a way to try and remove the her-or-me element from this issue. Try to spark your husband's problem solving skills and assure him that you are not trying to cut your MIL out (even if you would like to cut your MIL out). Take baby steps and do not expect your husband to confront her drinking, her driving, her smoking, and 15 other things all at once.
Posted by: Michelle | March 27, 2008 at 11:33 AM
So many good comments here.
Ultimately, we all have to decide what are our 'hills to die on'. Smoking was one of them for me, as both my parents smoke. When we moved away we stayed at their house once for a visit. Never again as it felt like we were sleeping in a bar. They know they can't smoke in any of their kid's homes. And up until a month ago, started to only smoke in the basement if anyone was visiting (my mom, not at all). For the couple of a hours a year we had the Monster there that was an acceptable compromise for us.
Now, I would love it if they didn't ply my daughter with cookies when we were over, but that is not a hill to die on for us.
My father is awaiting a lung cancer diagnosis (expected later today), and surprisingly, neither he nor my mom have smoked in the last month since this possibilty emerged. No matter that the grandchildren tell them smoking is bad and will kill them (what a smart 5 year old my nephew is!). No matter that all 4 grandkids refused to be held by my dad or even be near him when he came back inside from a smoke during a visit (and he never got the connection). It is only when the inevitable pops up that they change. Better late than never?
Posted by: cheryl | March 27, 2008 at 11:34 AM
OK, I have to admit that I think there's a smoking conspiracy going on -- that americans are being made to freak out about smoking so they won't pay attention to all the other ills, like flame retardants in breastmilk, lead in all the toys, the worst newborn mortality rate of all the industrialized nations, etc. My aunt likes to joke that the moms, when she was little, would smoke while nursing and the ashes would fall on the kid's head, and they would lovingly brush them off . . .
So I've got a bias going on. That said, here's my thought:
Realistically, she's not smoking in the house with the baby, so it's exposure to leftover smoke dust for a couple of hours every 4-6 weeks or so? I don't think that's a big deal in the big scheme of things. I suspect babies in cities are being exposed to far worse all day, every day -- but we wouldn't think twice about taking the kid to Manhattan . . . The fact is that you're looking at this beautiful perfect little girl and you want (justifiably) for everything to be perfect for her all the time. And you feel like *this* is something you can control, whereas with so many other things we're just victims. But I feel like the benefits of having a relationship with her grandmother will far outweigh the risks of occasional secondhand smoke dust. I mean, it's very blithe of me to point out, but I can't help but think that if secondhand smoke dust were THAT dangerous, that so little exposure were really a risk -- virtually no children would have survived the 40 & 50's, but I believe those children now form the majority of our population today, and are living longer than ever.
Ok, ladies, have at it! ;o)
Posted by: Meira | March 27, 2008 at 11:41 AM
I would say, if your husband doesn't want to (or won't) rock the boat, take her out for the day. It would be nice for her too. Is there a children's museum you could all go to close by? Or a park? Any sort of activity that is family/child friendly would be nice.
Not knowing how her health is, probably not very good, but I know as we get older it is difficult to travel even an hour. Going to her and picking her up for an adventure once in a while may even help her.
Posted by: Jennifer | March 27, 2008 at 11:55 AM
Meira, I think you make a good point. But for whatever reason, this is something Jessica can't deal with. She can't bear to see her child in that environment. And since it IS something she can control, maybe she should follow her gut and do so. But, again, I think you have a valid point. And let's not even talk about those cows being loaded by forklift to the slaughter...
Posted by: rudyinparis | March 27, 2008 at 11:57 AM
When I was a baby, my mother asked my alcoholic, chain-smoking grandmother to not smoke and drink when we were visiting. My grandmother refused and she and my mother had no further contact for twenty years. When my grandmother died four years ago, my cousin wanted to create a memory book so she handed out cards at the funeral for people to record their memories. I handed in a blank card because I did not know my grandmother.
This is such a tough situation! I don't know if I could expose my DS to toxins, either, but you need to be prepared for the fall-out. Good luck to you. I hope it turns out better for you than it did for us.
Posted by: Julie | March 27, 2008 at 12:06 PM
I kind of agree with Meira, a little time in a smokey house every few months probably wouldn't be the worst thing for her baby. I suspect that Jessica is having a battle of wills with her MIL and the smoking thing is just a manifestation of this. I sort of despise my MIL too, and I find myself being very picky about her behavior towards my daughter when often if it had been my own mom I would have let the behavior slide. That's just my two cents.....
Posted by: lainey | March 27, 2008 at 12:07 PM
Oh, do I know where you are coming from. My husband's grandfather is a chain smiking alcholoic. His mother is mentally ill. These two people have casued me more stress than all of the other people I have met in my life combined. It's always so sad to me that they could have everything in the world they say they want, if they would just act like responsible adults for a few minutes. But, neither of them is capable of it.
As for the smoking. Grandfather will refrain from smoking when we visit. However, he spends all day laying around smoking. The house is so filled with smoke that the walls are discolored. When we leave, we always go straight home, strip out of our clothes and shower. It is disgusting.
Because of this, we have only visited 4 times in the past 2 years. It's best in warm weather, when we sit outside, but on 2 occasions, we did stay in the house. An hour each time.
We are pressured to come more often, and we don't lie about why we don't come. When we do come, we hear "I'm not sure I'll be around for next Christmas" and "Oh, I wish I could see him more, but I can't get around." I'd feel guilty excpet that he's said the same things for the past 10 Christmases. And, he can't get around? He seems to have no problem getting out to buy his smokes and some beer.
I've been lucky, dh has found a way to stand up against his grandfather and mother for my son's sake. We have not been to his mother's house since I got pregnant and we found used kitty litter on the sofa. She has tried to play a lot of games, but she finally realzied that if she wants to see her grandson, she has to come to our house. We've made it clear that the door is always open.
I hope your husband can find the strength to stand up to his mother for his child's sake. But, if not, I think you still need to put your foot down.
Posted by: Jojo | March 27, 2008 at 12:07 PM
What about "The house is not babyproofed" Say one thing and mean many - I'm sure that as a 9 month old really gets cruising glass ashtrays on the coffee table are going to be really interesting. Plus any other miscellaneous that is not age appropriate in low-lying areas.
I'm all for meeting up at a park or a nonsmoking restaurant.
I certainly understand the tough decisions about who to have around your kids - I decided while I was pregnant that my MIL would not babysit for my daughter. She babysat my stepson (who was 8 years older than DD) and my niece (who is only 7 months older than my daughter). She just seemed too erratic. It turns out that she had early onset alzheimers and was diagnosed when my daugter was about 18 months old. My vote is for trusting your instincts. Maybe you can't protect your baby forever, but you can protect her while you can.
Posted by: Cathy | March 27, 2008 at 12:09 PM
Another little tidbit to add to what I"ve already said.....my MIL died of a very nasty and invasive throat cancer. It literally ate through her skin in a very slow, painful process. Until she was too weak to do so (a few days before she died) she smoked (and drank) all day long and maintained that her smoking did not contribute in *any* way to her form of cancer. Denial is a very powerful thing, and that's why - unless she wants to change - Jessica's MIL will probably not budge an inch. You can't make anyone stop smoking, move their smoking into another room, stop drinking....anything unless they are willing to do so. It sounds like a control issue stemming not from whether she agrees or disagrees about the science behind secondhad smoke, but rather her issues with her relationships with her son and Jessica. Try viewing the situation through a different lens and try to find ways for her to win some small battles so that she doesn't feel like she has no control and it is a power struggle between her and Jessica. It can be such a complicated relationship under the best of circumstances. And try to remember that despite all of her flaws, she is still the mother of your husband. I had a hard time feeling empathy for my MIL, my husband had an awful relationship with her and I used that as an excuse to keep my distance. It wasn't until she died that I realized that *no matter what*...she was his mother. He didn't hurt any less as a result of her death as he would have had he had a healthy relationship with her. So to summarize a long-winded point.....it's hard to show respect for someone you fundamentally disagree with and who seems to show so little regard for your decisions as a parent, but remember that she is your husband's mommy and try to give her as many opportunities to win while still keeping your little one safe.
Posted by: Julie | March 27, 2008 at 12:25 PM
So sorry Jessica you are having to deal with this. So hard. The whole trying to get the husband to deal and stand up can be so hard and sometimes impossible. I think sometimes they hope the strong lady in their life will just deal with it for them.
That said, I really have to second Annoymous' comments. The MIL is making the choice and if she chooses not to make the effort to visit (she could take the train, bus, or plane if driving isn't an option for her because of her drinking), then ultimately that's her call. Problem is typically alcohlics/addictive people (in my experiences with those folks in my family and life) have the tendency to always blame outward.
My thoughts are give the husband three choices you could live with (i.e., he could pick her up and drive her to your place - maybe even in a rental car so she can smoke during the drive and not contaminate your car, she could drive out to you guys, or perhaps arrange neutral trips together) and then let him decide with the MIL which they'd prefer.
Also, I completely agree with the poster about it being the norm for folks to come visit you when you have a young child. We've been fortunate enough the the ILs and my mom make the drive/flight to visit us once a month. We've made the effort a couple times to visit each side on their turf but it really is soo much more work. We visited the MIL at her house once (for my FIL's wake) and it was so rough just because of the lack of baby-proofing and running after a set of toddler twin boys going after the glass coffee table, jade flowers, cords all over the place, open slotted stairs and loft railing. I basically said we couldn't go back there until the boys were much older - just too hard and not fun for anyone.
My MIL got a long so much better pre-kids but we are doing much better now that the boys are no longer infants. I don't get nearly the comments/mumblings about how the swaddling was bad, scheduling them was bad, they hadn't eaten enough, etc. Now that the boys are preschoolers, they just have a fun time during her visits and I have learned to relax some and just let them have their time together when she's visiting.
Good luck. I really feel for you as I agree with the other posters that ultimately this is really bigger than just being exposed to the smoke.
Posted by: Maureen | March 27, 2008 at 12:26 PM
Lots of good comments here. When I take my baby out walking in Atlanta (almost every day), I wonder what I'm doing to her lungs. I hope it's okay.
I think what m said about a heart-to-heart talk is the direction I'd go. I'd start by admitting that the two of you don't have a good relationship, and I'd say that you want your baby to have a good relationship with her grandmother and you want to make your husband happy. And maybe even that your life would be enriched if you two had a better relationship. You can say that this smoking issue is killing you and it seems as if you are using it so that you won't have to visit, but that is truly, truly not the case. Then unless she is a downright jerk, maybe, maybe the two of you can work on some solutions.
Does that sound like I have on my rose-colored glasses?
Posted by: Sherry | March 27, 2008 at 12:37 PM
@ Cathy: "Maybe you can't protect your baby forever, but you can protect her while you can."
That's an EXCELLENT point. When I first told my chain-smoking-alcoholic mother that we wouldn't be staying at her home with the baby, her response was, "you can't protect him for the next 40 years!" (She used that number, specifically, because that's how long she intends to live. Another 40 years. I guess her point was, my son is going to be exposed to smoke as long as she's alive to interact with him, so I might as well just accept it now.)
Sure, she was right. I couldn't and wouldn't even want to try to protect my son for the next 40 years. That would be dysfunctional. But for the first year of his life? That's my #1 job! It's insane to think otherwise. It really helped, sometimes, to think of confronting her as "doing my job," rather than having a personal issue with my wacky mother.
Posted by: stacy | March 27, 2008 at 12:40 PM
Want to pipe in with the thought that (and this is definitely based on my own disfunctional relationships with my disfunctional family not even bringing the ILs into this) even though people are family they still need to earn the right to be a part of your/your children's lives. My sister has a history of drug use and exhibits the natural dishonest tendencies that accompanies it. Yes, she will always be my sister but we now have a "relationship" through emails. I don't trust her even though she has supposedly been clean for the last 2 years. I don't want that type of influence around my children. That said, they will definitely know about her and I'll use that as an opportunity to explain to them that there is definitely addiction on my side of the family and so they very well might have that gene too.
Yes, it is sad to think of a child not having a relationship with his/her grandma but at the same time that might be a better alternative than sucking that child into a very disfunctional relationship.
Harsh?? probably, but sadly I think that is how I've learn to protect/distance myself from my disfunctional family and now will protect my kids the same way. I know I differ so much from my husband in that he has a much more functional family and didn't have all the baggage growing up. He has a much stronger view on family than I do. So, I know I maybe way out there with this viewpoint.
Posted by: MO | March 27, 2008 at 12:47 PM
I hear what Meira (and others) are saying with, "But I feel like the benefits of having a relationship with her grandmother will far outweigh the risks of occasional secondhand smoke dust."
But it sounds like Jessica's husband already has this very same viewpoint. And, she is still wringing her hands and writing to Moxie.
Not to say it can't be useful for her to hear it from other parents, especially those who have been there. But it also sounds to me like to suck it up and deal is not an option for her. If this were the only physically possible way for MIL and the baby to ever, ever have a relationship, I might think that Jessica was being a little too stubborn. But since there are other options (meeting halfway, staying out of the house, etc.), Jessica doesn't have to accept "in the smokey house or nothing."
I guess it just sounds like MIL is asking Jessica to do all the compromising here. That's not really fair no matter what the issue is, but *especially* when it's a matter of health.
Posted by: stacy | March 27, 2008 at 12:51 PM
You're in a very tricky situation, and there have been a lot of good comments so far. Just to add my two cents, my mother is a smoker (the only one in the family). She smoked through both her pregnancies with me and my brother, and continues to smoke today. When I was pregnant, I tried to talk to her about quitting or at least trying to smoke less, and we ended up having quite a fight about it. It is a difficult topic for her to discuss, for some reason. She accused me of not wanting her to have a relationship with her grandson, and of overreacting to the dangers of secondhand smoke and of smoke chemicals in all the carpets/furniture, and of other things. We did not speak for a while.
Things are much better now, a few years later. She does not smoke at all, at our house or at hers, when we are visiting with the baby (with whom she now has a great relationship!). She changes her clothes if she has been smoking before we visit. Of course I (and her doctor and her friends and her family) would love for her to quit altogether, for her OWN health and longevity. But she refuses to talk about it or even consider the effects of smoking. Her own poor respiratory health and high blood pressure. My brother's respiratory problems. Even their dog's death a few years ago may have been exacerbated by her smoking! Luckily neither I nor my brother took up smoking, not that she ever said "Smoking is bad" or anything, I think we were both just so disgusted by it (especially after going away to college and living in a smoke-free environment for once...) that we never did it. And I had not heard the miscarriage statistic, and fortunately this has not yet been an issue for me, but I think it is yet one more thing that she will not put credence in.
You just cannot convince some people, you can only learn to live with them and their choices. And you definitely, definitely have to do that in a way that is best for your baby, above all. Best of luck.
Posted by: JenniferB | March 27, 2008 at 01:16 PM
My MIL is very difficult for me to deal with - when I was pregnant we went head-to-head over a bassinette that "every" child had slept in for the last 40 years and that I was sure was Death in White Wicker. I "won" that one and T. slept in her moses basket while MIL told me she would be sleeping better if she had more space, like in the family heirloom.
Looking back now, I realize that the debate was about who was going to be in charge of our family and I was determined to win because I see her having far too much sway over her kids' lives - all of them live in reaction to her, so she still controls all of them, including my husband.
I'm trying to get to a place where our decisions on these things reflect our family's values, including respect for our parents. I don't think it would be respectful to lie to your MIL about a health issue that doesn't exist. Especially since I don't think this is really so much about the smoke per se, but about who sets the terms of your time together. I don't have an awesome solution, but I would want to be able to say to T. that we love and respect grandma and have it be true. If Moms have a spidey sense, kids have a Liar, Liar Sense for these things.
Yeah, that was useless as far as practical help goes but it reminds me that this will be a life-long dialogue for our family. Let us know what you do.
Posted by: ACJ | March 27, 2008 at 01:25 PM
i have about one million thought swirling around my head on this issue (great comments, btw)- but first i was struck by what meira said- i guess that was my point, too- is a few hours every two or three months that big of a deal to be exposed to some second hand smoke? i think probably not, and i think often our (american born) generation tends to go overboard with the lengths we go to protect our kids from *everything* (this isn't to say i am not guilty of this as well- I AM!) vs. what we were exposed to/raised within our own environments, which we have mostly survived through.
now, understand that i am very much an adult child of an alcoholic when i say that i can completely understand where jessica's husband is coming from- when you grow up with the instability that abuse brings upon a developing psyche as a child, often times you do whatever you can to keep the peace *by any means necessary*- and often this doesn't change when you are an adult- mostly because when you do try to confront your parent as a rational, thoughtful, non-addicted adult it's like you are beating your head against the wall- there is no rational thought for people who are so brain damaged (after so many years of addiction) and it's like arguing in a foreign language to a baby martian, so you just don't even bother most of the time. so i can totally see it from jessica's husbands side- lets just go over there for a few hours every once in a while and keep the peace. because, honestly, unless the baby had a true health problem (asthma, etc.) a few hours in a room with a smoker probably isn't the worst- which is much different than it was for many of us who grew up with smokers around 24/7. maybe once the weather gets nicer it will be easier to sit outside and do this? or go with an outdoor-specific activity (baby pool/sprinkler/bubbles, etc) with you? and make it all about your kid- "oh she loves the sprinkler! we can't wait for you to see!"
the other thought i had is also probably going against the grain a bit- the grandmother is still your husband's mom, and trying to navigate that relationship is always going to be a tricky one for you. and you have to remember that from your child's eyes, her grandparents are *golden* and they deserve a chance to have some type of relationship with her. one protected by you, of course, and supervised especially if she's an alcoholic, but important nonetheless. it's similar in a way to divorced parents not badmouthing their exes to or in front of their kids- that can be damaging in deep and pervasive ways for a child who is in direct dna descent from that person.
i'll tell you from my observation of my husband's family how bad it can be to badmouth your parents to your kids- my husband, brothers and first cousins were all so close with their maternal grandparents, yet his parents generation has nothing but negative things to say about them- and this hurts the kids deeply, and they resent their parents for it. because when you're a kid you mostly have no clue about all the adult stuff going on, you just love that this lady is paying tons of wonderful attention to you and showering you with cookies. as the parent it is your job to protect your kids as much as you can. but it's a balancing act to be sure. good luck, jessica.
Posted by: pnuts mama | March 27, 2008 at 01:27 PM
So, thinking about the 'grandparent entitlement' issue here...
Picture the situation reversed - you're the grandma. Now, the first thing to know about being a grandmother is that for nearly every one I've encountered, the love they feel for the grandchild is as strong as the love of a mother for their own child. Ouch when you can't control access or decisions, there. Seriously, never being able to gatekeep 'back' is agonizing for many - she's not your child, it just hurts like she is.
Add in that as a grandma, your only experience is in being a mother. (If that.) Being a grandparent has a whole different set of rules, a whole different set of expectations, benefits, risks, concerns, pot-holes, etc. All unknown. Top that off by many not realizing that they're in a new role - they're still navigating one road, but driving another.
Most parents I know don't address this with the grandparents - that their role is as new, and as challenging, as the parents' role. Honestly, we're not taught to respect that - we're taught that WE are the central players, and nobody else feels the way we do. Only, many of them DO feel the same love, the same desperation to 'do it right' (and often 'to do it right for the first time now that I see what I messed up').
All the parenthood-equals-grandparenthood assumptions can either be carried forward (often creating friction) or they can be caught and changed. Waiting to change the assumptions or address the friction just makes it more painful, IMHO. And it's harder if the 'first grandkids' family didn't set the boundaries, and another child tries to do so for their own kids. The grandparents get used to riding roughshod over everyone, and here you are saying STOP, that HURTS! The choice is to either accept that your first-grandkids-family let you hurt them and said nothing, or to assume that the later-grandkids-family is just hypersensitive. Most people choose the latter... less painful, and 'not my fault'.
With my own mom, and my step-parents, and my IL's, we spotted the issue early. My ILs had already run the experiment, and the other families had drawn the lines clearly, and maybe even a bit too harshly. My own dad had kind of felt his way into the role with a lot of holding back and caution (he's hypersensitive about trespassing on anyone - now that he knows what that means! Yay al-anon and counseling!).
My mom... my mom only knew how to be a mom. She knew a LOT about being a mom (seven kids!). She loved my firstborn so much it hurt, and she really wanted to make the world perfect for him. She would just then try to solve things her way, because, well, she knew how to do it! Obviously! I could see the physical visceral reactions she had, needing to hold him when he cried, needing to comfort, needing to be there... and he was MINE. MINE, dammit. Not yours. BACK OFF.
I snapped on her. Painfully, very harshly. I let her step over the line a few times, not sure how to handle it, and then she did it one more time and I snapped. She was pretty much holding a bleeding emotional stump when she came back to me a couple hours later and said, (literally with tears in her eyes), 'I don't know how to do this. I've never done it before. I only know how to be a mom. I don't know *anything* about being a grandmother. I thought it was going to be easy and simple and obvious, but clearly it's not. I'm going to need your help figuring this out.' (Okay, so she's also a retired minister, and knows how to handle herself in intense situations - major points for her still, and no expectation that the average person will get there easily!) ...
From there, we defined some rules, roles, and boundaries, and worked our way through them - discarded some, flexed on others, etc. But it was all about establishing new rules for a new set of roles, based on the understanding that neither of us knew what we were doing, and both of us loved G beyond life.
One of the things we did that really worked was to think up something she might be able to do as a 'grandparent job' that would fill in a gap I'd otherwise have. I asked her to be in charge of 'enchantment' - 'I'm the mom, I'm responsible for all the health, safety, development, skills, yadda yadda, and I'm afraid I'm not going to be as able as I'd like to provide enchantment on a daily basis.' It was a perfect solution - it gave her a frame for thinking of ideas, it allowed her a specific and valuable role, it created a space where she was free to pursue the relationship with HER grandkids (and that IS a unique relationship outside the parent-child one). AND it created limits that I could live with.
Other roles could be anything that they have energy for - pass on your love of the arts, or music, or the shore, or sailing, show them the outdoors, give them a sense of history - ours, the world's. Etc. My grandparents kind of floundered into those roles - My grandfather (a total disaster of a human and a true horror of a parent) managed to pass on his love of geology, my grandmother (a codependant flake and usually 1000 miles away) fed our passion for books (she once sent us a hundred books in one go, a classics library). They worked their way into those roles, as most grandparents do eventually - but when there's so much friction to start out, setting up those roles (though leaving them flexible for changing later if they're not fitting) can really help. (BTW, one of the main roles that most grandparents 'self-select' is 'spoiling the grankids' - hence the cookies and gifts ... BUT, that can be subverted if you discuss the role - spoil them in a certain DIRECTION, not just generically... spoil them with history, musuem trips, a library to envy, etc.).
And of course, there's the job of 'supporting the parents in any way possible so they have more energy, time, and resources to be the best parents they can be'. That's a good one, but not every grandparent is able to figure it out, or is able to do it even if they can.
Anyway, IMHO, the reaction of 'what's with the entitlement' is missing the point. Grandparents love without power, authority, or rights. That is going to go *somewhere*, and usually without a role or some other kind of basket to put it in, it's going to splat into someone else (usually the parents).
Sometimes the boundaries have to be really strict and firm and clear - safety is still your job. Mom and Dad are still the gatekeepers. And I've used that when I've had to. But without some positive guidelines, some 'here's what I hope my child gets from your relationship with each-other' and the correlary 'what do YOU hope for your relationship with your grandchild?' there's no light on the road, and no white lines to stay inside.
I guess my advice falls into the following:
1) Gatekeep on the important stuff - Safe, Respectful, Kind.
2) Find a way to be Safe, Respectful, and Kind back - reiterate the hope for a good relationship, reiterate the hope for a grandmother to remember.
3) Work out some roles you can live with, then offer those as opportunities and start talking about it.
4) Deal with the codependency as a separate issue. At the very least, dealing with it will become a modeling/example opportunity for building skills - boundary maintenance is a skill that everyone needs, and if the issues are within family, all the more reason to build those skills intentionally!
5) Deal with the MIL/DIL relationship separate from the rest.
6) Deal with the DH/DW issue separate from the rest - it WILL be hard for him to step back, and to recognize that she's setting him up to choose his family of origin over his family of choice. He'll probably need help to step away from that.
And really, still, the very best wishes for this. I know how hard it was and my family was all pretty sane by the time I had kids. We'd had our crises and the counseling and all that, and it was STILL hard to find a way to function as a parent while allowing my parents to function as grandparents, and to watch my child as my child, and to leave room for him/them to also be a grandchild. It was physically painful at times to create that space, even in pretty decent circumstances. I feel for you trying to navigate that without that freedom and comfort.
Posted by: hedra | March 27, 2008 at 01:34 PM
I've just had time to review a few of the comments, but I want to add to the "unpopular" posts that we do choose a grandparent relationship over not visiting because of smoking. My Dad smokes and we do all that we can to limit exposure. We mostly have my parents come to our house (where my Dad cannot smoke inside at all) and we try to insist (most of the time sucessfully) that my Dad not smoke around our little monkey. The warmer weather makes it much easier to visit them and we'll spend lots of time outside. We also keep our visits to a few hours. We talked to our doctor about the issue and he said that, while it would be best to have no exposure to second-hand smoke, what is most important is to make sure our child feels as much love as he can...by everyone in our family. And my Dad loves this little guy to pieces. I wouldn't trade those moments of watching them play together for the world. So, is it a trade off? You bet. Do I wish I didn't have to struggle with this issue? You bet. Does it make me feel bad, sad and angry. Yup. But, our little monkey knows how much he is loved by his grandparents and that helps me sleep at night...most nights. :)
Posted by: Karlark | March 27, 2008 at 01:47 PM
Such a tough issue! I am not sure of the universality of "But I feel like the benefits of having a relationship with her grandmother will far outweigh the risks of occasional secondhand smoke dust." Having a good relationship with an attentive grandparent would do so, in my opinion--but will this troubled and self-involved woman be able to be that grandparent? It's not that you should prejudge her abilities as a grandparent, but do be realistic about the possibilities. We have a couple different sides of this among Mouse's grandparents:
-my mother, who had a horrific abusive family and has resulting issues (we have a tough relationship but we're uneasily OK) is a wonderful, delightful grandparent and I'd leave Mouse with her any time.
-my FIL, who also had an awful childhood of a different sort and is bipolar (medicated but it's challenging keeping him balanced and he has pretty frequent episodes of serious depression and less serious mania) I believe truly loves Mouse but often isn't able to pay attention to her when he visits--he's focused on his own issues and it's very hard explaining to Mouse what's going on. She really likes him when he's fine, but sometimes he'll come over for several hours, ostensibly to see Mouse, but never look at her. While I'd never cut off contact in this situation, I can't bring myself to leave Mouse with him even though he wants to babysit and is hurt whenever we use anybody else. I just don't feel I can rely on him attending to her needs, and she's still (at almost 4) a little young to deal with that by herself.
-and, one interesting thing to consider, Mouse has one stepgrandparent who smokes--he's very housebroken, only smokes outside, etc. But Mouse won't go near him for a hug or kiss, or even sit next to him for reading. She hates the smell, even at that level. (And Mr. C and I hug him just like any other parent, so I don't think we're modeling anything there.)
That's just to say...no real advice, I do think it's worth trying and I think the ideas offered by pps are excellent, but don't set your expectations too high for the relationship--it may be fantastic, but it may be just neutral and certainly if it's negative you guys are well within your rights to mitigate its effect on your daughter.
Posted by: Charisse | March 27, 2008 at 01:48 PM