Keeping perspective

When I was in college, I was taking a psych class, and our professor was interested in hostage situations and terrorist actions. One of the stories he told us about was a group of American soldiers who had been captured and held in a POW camp in Vietnam. Apparently during Vietnam there was a huge rate of brainwashing, as the American soldiers spent time every day being forced to confess all sorts of things they hadn't done, and eventually they started to believe it.

The prisoners at this camp were not all from the same unit, but there was a unit leader who had been captured who took charge of the situation as much as he could. After each POW was taken and forced to confess, he'd come back and the unit leader would force him to use Morse code to tap out the report of what he'd confessed to. By confessing what they'd confessed to, the POWs didn't have to keep it inside themselves and internalize it--they got it out and got reinforcement from the unit leader and the group that they'd been forced to confess but that didn't mean that what they'd said was the truth. When they got out of the camp, the guys who'd been in that particular camp were in far better shape emotionally and mentally than POWs at other camps, because they'd had the companionship and reinforcement of the group, even when they were being tortured and forced to confess.

I thought about that story a lot as I was reading the book I reviewed yesterday about Cynthia Cooper. And I think about that story whenever we end up with a thread in which you guys confess stuff that's making you feel horrible and immediately everyone else jumps in to give you perspective.

As I've said, this isolation thing messes with your head. Whether you're a SAHM alone in the house with her children, or a working mom who reenacts the forced march of home-work-home every day with little interaction with others in your situation, being a mother can be isolating. And without people to confess to who help give you a reality check and some reinforcement, how do we survive?

Can we talk about this? About how lonely this gig can be? And how we can combat that?

Comments

[Kel]

Oh yes, again, thank you Moxie for being here.

When you asked for everyone to list three things they would change and so many of the three things were so intimate and yet, seemingly, so common that made me feel like a part of a community.

When I asked for help in the comments last week about potty training twins and got great suggestions it made me feel so much a part of a community.

When I come here each day to see what the topic is, that makes me feel like part of a community - even when the topic isn't something I'm struggling with.

Back to the list of things we could all do - My list "should" include not spending as much time on line reading parenting blogs, but really I think its one of the ways I keep sane. I do miss my "brick and mortar" friends, but getting together just isn't in the cards right now (and probably for the next few years) so this place and these women (and men) make this journey so much easier.

Kel

[Jan]

Random thoughts this thread generates for me:

I joined a mom group when my first was a tiny baby and when the official group ran out (3 months), they all continued to meet and I wasn't invited. That felt really great. NOT.

I like and need time to myself more than many people, I think. I work at home one day a week just so I don't have to interact with anybody all day long.

I suck at making friends. I'm not exactly shy -- I have no trouble chatting up strangers at the playground or in line at the grocery store. I make acquaintances very easily. I haven't quite figured out how to make that jump from acquaintance to friend.

I think we get isolated partly because we're doing too much. If you're always having to run off to work/soccer practice/piano lessons/school drop-off/ballet/etc, there's not much time left for hanging around on your front porch while your kids eat popsicles in the yard with the neighbors. I know I have a friend at work that I'd like to spend more time with, but we can almost never seem to get our schedules aligned to even go out to lunch.

On a related note, I find myself in a place of simultaneously feeling too busy to fit anything else in, and longing for some more social contact. Day-to-day, the too-busy feeling usually wins out.

[meggiemoo]

Introverts unite! I'm an introvert masquerading as an extrovert, in that I literally force myself to talk to someone, anyone when I go anywhere. It's gotten a lot easier over the years...I chat up the cashier, the people in line around me, the teachers at daycare, the taxi driver when I'm on a trip.

This helps me from sinking into my self-imposed abyss of introvertedness.

Maternity leave was hell for me. Pure hell. Take PPD, jaw-achingly cold weather, a colicky baby, no family nearby, and stir well. Oh, and add in PPD for the introvert husband as well. Lovely!

Mom's groups were a complete disaster. Family was sympathetic but hundreds of miles away. Other friends with children? Working. Neighborhood? Empty.

Now my DS is 2 and I've been back at work for a year and a half. Life is great, but we're trying for baby #2 and I'll likely be a SAHM for that one. This terrifies me.

Can we also talk about the isolating effect on spouses? My DH is very sensitive, emotional, and prone to anxiety. He had PPD at least as badly as I did, if not worse.

[m]

When my first son was born, I had no feelings of isolation. We were lucky to live in a building where there were four other moms with babies/toddlers--two of whom I was close with. My best friend lived next door and I lived in an area of the city which had a vibrant and friendly street life.

But we moved to a new city in September where we don't know anyone. I was pregnant at the time and now have a one month old son (my first will be two at the end of the month). We don't have a car and this is a car dependant city (and no, we can't afford to get one right now, either). The winter was full of weeks of -20 to -30 weather so I didn't get out much. I've made one friend with children so far, and while she's great and I love her family, one friend isn't enough. Do I feel isolated? Hell yeah. Do I think it is self-imposed? Absolutely not.

I never thought of myself as an introvert, but perhaps I am. Spring is coming, and I hope with the snow this feeling of isolation and loneliness will melt away.

[meggiemoo]

Oh, and not to hijack the thread, but it seems there are a lot of us in the DC area...I'd love to meet up sometime. Anyone else game?

[hedra]

Gah, lost the post. Oy.

So, trying again.

1) I am looking at blogging (anyone have opinions about xanga?), but maybe after April... maybe. I am not promising anything. I found it hard enough to post a weekly update on the pregnancy journal at StorkNet, and that had an end point.

Back to the topic...

2) I am the last person to ask about making connections for oneself. I seem to make connections for other people. I'm in the middle of a web of people who are best friends with each other because they each knew me. We're all friends, but ... well, I suck at being a friend. My 'lonely' meter broke when I was a child (self-imposed isolation as a survival instinct... seemed useful then, way challenging now!). It might seem nice to rarely feel lonely or isolated, but what it means on the ground is that I don't notice when I'm not maintaining my relationships. I check out, and then I'm gone for months without contact. Not a good way to maintain a connection.

BUT,
2) I am all about creating common ground, even if it is just a moment of time in the produce aisle, a passing reassurance, a refusal to be seen as 'greater than' for surviving four kids (or whatever else that seems 'super-mommy'-ish at the moment). I'm not normal, but I'm also not better than anyone else. Some of my not normal is useful, some is crippling. Showing my process, my wounds, and my scars is part of making the world sane.

3) "Visible Parenting" - something my mom did, and something I try to do, is show the innards (without dumping the whole mess on everyone) - like those clear plastic toys with the insides all showing (Visible Human, Visible Woman, Visible Horse, etc.). I still love that my oldest son said, 'you really struggle with this parenting thing, don't you?' - LOVE that. Because that's a core goal for me, showing the innards. It's not easy, we're not supposed to know everything, it's that long ongoing conversation as Moxie said. Maybe it's the Quaker ancesters rearing up in resistance to the American Puritan culture ('hide all pain as long as possible', 'pretend all pain belongs to others', 'try to tell others THE way to get out of their pain')... I'm into just sharing - witnessing, if you will - the process of being a mother. To my kids, so they know it isn't easy but we continue to learn (as my mom showed me), to friends, to strangers. Moxie is all about witness - not preaching, not proselytizing, just witnessing the whole ugly and beautiful truth of parenthood.

And really, most everything I write is to myself, too. Saying it uncovers the wound, so I can see it. And saying it means others hear it, and can say it back to me later, when I need it. At least once a week, I find I've written something that I needed to hear, and sometimes I don't even realize it until my DH reads it and sees where it applies to something else that's going on with me and one child or another. Being a "Visible Parent" in this network is a way I keep myself from being isolated *FROM MYSELF*, as well - and that, for me, is a very very big deal.

(WOO! That was much shorter than the version I lost... :) )

[Cloud]

What a great conversation! I don't have much to add, except that I was talking to a soon to be mommy here at work, and we were lamenting how we could be decisive at work and so unbelievably indecisive about parenting issues. We both have jobs that require us to make lots of decisions every day, but we both struggle to make the simple parenting decisions, like what sort of car seat to buy. Just talking to someone else who had the same experience was so nice! I usually find this sort of support in blogs, because my old job was mostly men, and those with kids had much older kids. The new job has some other working mommies, and I'm loving that!

[hedra]

@DC Ranger and Heather... my second called me "That" for a loooooong time. Okay, so he has an articulation delay, but boy. Dada, Guh for G, even had a name for the cats, and I was 'that' (okay, technically 'dat' with pointing, but the same was used for anything else he wanted). I did miss it a little when he stopped, but it wasn't real encouraging while it was going on. And in China, it is 'baba' for father, IIRC. Another easy one, basically. Mother is still Ma.

[Julie]

You know.....this is an important topic. For me at least. I always hated making new friends before I had Alex because there was so much shit that goes on between women of a certain age. I have found that after kids, it gets a lot easier b/c it's really hard to be a bitch when you haven't showered, can't lose those last 10 (or 40) pounds, haven't slept for x months, and have baby crap and vomit on your shirt. At the same time. People suddenly become more real to me. That's not to say there are not those stepford moms out there who are totally put together and judging everyone because they do/don't do Ferber or do/don't do co-sleeping.....but for some reason to me they have big red arrows over their heads saying "AVOID ME....I'm a Judging bitch" and so I do for the most part. It is so much easier for me to strike up conversations with adults when we're both swinging our kids on the swings at the park than it ever was just saying something to someone without my prop. I mean, my kid.

It is extremely lonely though, despite it being easier for me to make new mom friends. I work full time during the school year, so play groups are out of the question because they always seem to meet on Tuesdays at 11 or something. And weekends are "family time" so it's hard setting up playdates with my like-minded friends because their husbands work all week (and the moms sometimes work too) so that time feels sacred to me. My husband works on weekends too.....so I get really lonely trying to come up with things to do. A lot of the time it feels like my husband and I tag-team parent....passing Alex between us so each of us can do the things we want/need to do. It's hard.

I actually feel like I have made some really good friends here on this site, even though we never directly talk to each other. It's a safe place to say what you think and you can feel yourself aligning yourself with regular posters based on what they say about whatever topic. When I talk about something discussed here IRL, I often find myself saying something like "Oh my friend Hedra was talking about that the other day and she said....." and it feels natural to me I guess in this new blogging world we live in.

I think it would be fun to have a moxie sticker/pin, hat/shirt whatever so we can identify ourselves in the real world.....because it is a likeminded group of people and why shouldn't we be friends IRL if we live near each other? As for others starting their own blogs...it's possible people have them but don't post them. I know I do, so I'll post it this time. Granted, it's not clever like Dooce, or wise like Moxie....but I actually have gotten so much pleasure reading amyinmotown's birth stories on her blog that it seems worth it.

It takes a lot of risk to put yourself and your ideas out there, to be your own authentic self. Blogs seem like a safe place to do that because they are anonymous as much as you want them to be. But I also think that communities like this are special and rare and should be celebrated for what they provide all of us in making this journey a little less lonely. Thanks, Moxie.

[meggiemoo]

I volunteer myself and my husband (we're both graphic designers) to design a graphic. We can upload it to Cafe Press and then ya'll can go there and stick it on a t-shirt, mug, whatever, if you want to. My vote for the tagline would be something like, "Do you Moxie?" with the URL underneath. Or "Just Ask Moxie". Something like that. Any other suggestions?

Moxie: any reservations about doing something like that?

[JB]

@ paola... Chinese children say "baba" for Daddy and "mama" for Mommy, but "da" is still usually their first syllable. We adopted our daughter from China, and one of her health reports said she could say "dada," "baba" and "wooo," which turned out to be exactly right! :)

[hedra]

OOH, I want a Moxie bumper sticker. Please oh please oh please oh please.

[meggiemoo]

or..."Got Moxie?"

[DC Ranger]

Jan's comment ("I find myself in a place of simultaneously feeling too busy to fit anything else in, and longing for some more social contact.") hit home, because that's certainly a big part of the problem. I feel I'm on this endless treadmill that makes up our daily routine. Very little personal time in there for me, and as geobrarian pointed out, introverted types tend to want/need more time alone - esp. in order to recharge their batteries and have energy for anything else, including, in my case, socializing! I *want* very badly to get out & meet more people or see my existing friends but with what time? And I see my son so little during the week that I feel wretchedly guilty about hiring a babysitter or taking him to grandma for a day. Unfortunately stepping off the treadmill won't be an option for another few years. I'm just trying to hold my head above water till then.

@Hedra & Paola - thanks for the encouraging comments about DS's use of "dada", and apologies, didn't mean to hijack the thread. For a long time "da da da" was just random babbling, but it's become clear in the last month from context that DS is asking for his daddy and no one else. Plus DS knows his daycare provider & grandma's names too. How's it possible for such a very small person to mess with my mind so much?

@meggiemoo - count me in if DC readers want to get in touch!

[caramama]

@Julie - "b/c it's really hard to be a bitch when you haven't showered, can't lose those last 10 (or 40) pounds, haven't slept for x months, and have baby crap and vomit on your shirt." LMAO!!! Now I'm off to visit your blog...

@meggiemoo and other DC area peeps - I would be happy to coordinate a get together... if you can give me a month (or maybe two) to do it. I've got a lot going on, but things should be easier for me in a month or so, since I have so much more energy starting in April. As Julie said, why shouldn't we be friends IRL?!?!

[Nikki]

I'm loving the conversation here... I work 40hrs a week from home, so I find it particularly challenging to get out and about with my two-year-old when I feel like I should be working. Technically, my schedule is "flexible", but if I take a few hours for story time or a play date in the morning, I find myself working 'til 11pm, leaving me little to no time for any sort of relaxation, let alone the basic maintenance required for the house. My daughter goes to a parent's time out once a week, and I feel like I should make overtures to the other moms, but i'm not sure how to approach them, or when I would find the time to hang out with them. Sigh. Thanks for letting me get this out. I, too would welcome the Moxie signal... :)

[caramama]

Oh, and I totally agree with Jan, too, about being so busy that it's hard to find time to connect.

One thing I did was made a point to do Water Babies and now a Little Gym class with my best friend who's baby is only 5 months older. We meet at the pool or Little Gym in the middle, so I could go somewhere closer, but this ensures we actually do something together regularly, and since it's for the kids, there is no excuse to not go (barring missing a week for sickness or something).

[Jill]

@Jan - I too find that I can't transition from acquaintance to friends. Now that my kids are in school, I need to call people and arrange to go out for coffee, etc. I may get up the courage to try once, but if I don't hear back from them I take it too personally. Maybe they just don't have spare time. Maybe I shouldn't.

Anyone else in Atlanta?

@Moxie - Yes! a "Got Moxie?" or "Just Ask Moxie" bumper sticker would be great!

[Mary]

Being a working mom IS so isolating. But at the same time, I have a taste of the SAHM isolation because I work from home often.
I don't know which is worse.
When home you don't see anyone except your children unless you venture out to the pediatrician, grocery store, or some other inane errand. And often, those are so frought with stress that it's easier to just hole up like a hermit (imagine a day spent driving with 2 dogs and a teething infant).
Going to an office you feel cut off from your child and distracted by thoughts of home. And you find yourself removed from the social scene of office life because every second you aren't actually working, you are doing stuff as "mom". Lunches are spent running errands. Breaks are spent pumping milk. After work "happy hours" are too ridiculous to even contemplate (your nursing and your daycare closes at 5). You become a "non team player" and are shut out.
I often wish I was a Dad, rather than a Mom. Somehow it just doesn't happen to them.

[Heather]

@Chaosgirl, I had a very similar experience with breastfeeding, except it happened in the span of 6 weeks instead of 4 1/2 months. I understand how terribly guilt-inducing and PPD-inducing the situation can be!! I had to constantly remind myself that I made every effort possible to feed my DD the way I had hoped (breastfeeding) but it just wasn't in the cards. Like you, I was down to pumping 1.5 or 2 oz per pump, while listening to my DD scream because she wanted me to hold her instead of pump and listening to my cousin tell me how she exclusively pumped with no problems except over-supply. Geez. It's enough to make you certifiable. Anyway, it's obvious that you certainly did everything humanly possible to provide your boy with breastmilk and that he simply has a mind of his own. I look back now with some pride that I pulled out all the stops to do as much as possible to prolong the breast express for my daughter. Soon you will too.

[Moxie]

OK, there is no way I would ever sanction "Got Moxie?" just because it's way too 1998, and also people would think it's about the soda.

But also, I've been holding out on you guys. I'm on the second pair of glasses since the ones on my banner. Which means that I really should get a new photo and a new banner and a new logo. And then put that logo on all kinds of crap on my Zazzle store (and re-investigate Cafe Press while I'm at it), thereby paying for T-ball for the older kid. (I've heard the games are at 8:30 Saturday mornings.)

Wait 'til you see the new glasses. They're black frames, with fake wood on the sides, like a woodie station wagon. They made me laugh, so I chose them.

Meggiemoo, would you design a graphic if I get you a photo?

[Linda]

I would love a Moxie t-shirt. And a onesie.

[debra]

gosh - what a timely, wonderful topic today. This is such a terrific group. I have two boys (5 and 18 months) and I quit my job about 6 months ago to stay home full-time. Overall, it is good -- I love that I no longer feel like I'm working three jobs, and can spend much better time with my sons. My family loves that I'm no longer irrationally angry at everything. We have routines, playgroups, activities, and try to get out everyday. Yet still, I feel like there is something missing for me - meaningful conversation? real connections? appreciation and recognition for my achievements? - and I start to doubt my worth and abilities to meet and get along with others. Life seems so busy and yet, not really.

If anyone is in Seattle and would like to get together, let me know....

[too fed up to put a name]

I'm lonely. I'm so lonely. In fact, my poor hubby had to drive back from work as I was sobbing uncontrollably down the phone to him that I was a lonely, tired, failed mother who wanted to run away and leave them to it as they would be so much better off without me.

Maybe it's the sleep deprivation (I only got a 2 + 2.5 hours last night, I used to nap these times!!), maybe I'm slightly PNDish?

I'm obsessed with sleep. My heart races everytime I hear her stirring. DH and I haven't slept in the same bed for nearly 7 months as he has to go to work and I deal with the nightwakings - I guess that adds to the lonlieness - I worry that our marriage is suffering.

I find it's an ever-decreasing circle. As I become more and more tired, I feel more and more out of control, my self esteem plummets, I become depressed, I avoid meeting with old friends and avoid situations where I could make new ones, I lose perspective, become obsessed with the sleeping issues which in turn makes me sleep less, I become more and more tired...

I really want to escape parenting at the minute, call in sick. Obviously, I can't. I'm here for the duration, I have more than myself to think about. A crushing realisation - perhaps I'm a selfish person by nature.

There are some amazing people in this community. Some have really reached out to me when I have described how low I am feeling. Caramama told me I could email her - but I didn't, I felt like I would just whinge on (pretty much like now). I'm ashamed of who I am.

It's my birthday tomorrow, I'll be 32. Maybe it will be a good time to break the cycle, to get back some perspective. I'm sure the lack of sleep is playing with my mind, I have found the first 30 weeks of parenting extremely hard. The perspective is in realising that there is a long way to go yet and things will get better (and then worse etc etc).

[sam]

Oh Moxie, can't believe you've changed the glasses. My DH always jokes about how much I look like you because we have similar glasses (and hair, and blue eyes). Does this mean I'm seriously behind the times with my specs? I'm not changing - not whilst grubby little hands keep ripping them off my face.

[Nut Mommy]

Thanks for posting this. Really interesting discussion. I am an introvert who works outside the home. I have a couple of really good Mom friends at work but we have limited interaction outside of the office (one lives about an hour away and the other one has older kids with different schedules). I do not feel at ease in many casual social situations and do not consider myself good at small talk. Since the Nut was born nine months ago, I feel like I've not done a very good job at all connecting with other local moms. He was born in the summer when many of the local moms groups were suspended because people were out of town and I haven't been able to get involved now that I'm back at work full-time.

I actually worry about my introversion/isolation more for the Nut than myself. There was an interesting article in the NY Times a couple of months back about how certain conditions such as attention deficit disorders and Asperger's may actually be passed on from parent to child. It got me thinking about social anxieties and whether these too are passed along, via either nature or nurture, or, at the very least, what kind of impact it has on a child when a parent suffers from some degree of social anxiety (not sure about the science behind this or endorsing the article, just saying it got me thinking).

I realize that at nine months interaction with other babies is not essential, but at some point it will be time to make playdates and I'm worried that I won't know how to do this for my son. I should note that he's home with a nanny during the day, so he doesn't have the opportunity to see other kids in daycare (and I have no interest in sending him to daycare just for that reason). I will eventually send him to preschool, but I'm still worried about how I'll navigate the social interactions, particularly if I am one of the few WOHM (many of the moms in my area stay home). My son is currently an incredibly happy and friendly baby and I want him to continue to be at ease with other people and not to feel anxious socially the way I do. I'm concerned I'm going to let my own anxieties perpetuate a vicious cycle.

I'm just wondering if any other shy or socially anxious moms out there had advice about how to build the social confidence in their children that they themselves may lack.

Also, anyone else out there in suburban Philly? :)

[sheSaid]

ok how do you guys make it to mom's groups? My little one is always in need of a nap, or napping when it would be time to go. Is he just that off schedule of everyone else? Morning mom groups? I need one that is around like 1:30 or 2:30 something like that...

getting out of the house helps, getting alone time helps.... but man i want just ONE mom to bond with.

[rudyinparis]

Hey, Too Fed Up, my heart goes out to you. Your post is perfect here, as it shows how a community like this can ease the isolation. FWIW, when you say you're ashamed of who you are, that makes me want to lie on the floor and cry. I don't even know you, and I know you have no reason to feel ashamed. You're human.

Do NOT underestimate the effect of the lack of sleep. I have a hunch you're not really able to see clearly right now. I got plenty of sleep last night and I know you are the best mom for your daughter and that you're doing the best you can. Some people are so damaged, they do horrible things to their children. A person that damaged would be too far gone to find this community and post here. But you posted here, didn't you?You are ok and you're doing the best you can and certainly this discussion today shows how damn hard it can be.

One day at a time, one minute at a time.

[hedra]

@Nut Mommy, not too far away, if you're on the west or southern side... :) And I'm married to an introvert (so I don't freak out about normal I stuff), and M has(had) clinically significant anxiety (socially oriented especially). So, yeah, know that world! Granted, I've already said I suck at the friend thing. Not a great mesh for anyone who isn't really assertive about pestering me, so you'd have to be really assertive about pestering me. :)

And don'tcha wonder if you'll encounter someone this way that you already know IRL and didn't connect with for whatever reason?

@ too fed up - not a touch PNDish, WAY WAY WAY PNDISH. Get thee to a doctor. It can be better than that. It's kinda where I'd end up, especially on the no-sleep thing. But it doesn't have to be. At all. Yes, sleep plays a big role, but if you can't fix the sleep right now, at least you can do something else about the other side of the baseline issue. Do. It's your birthday, give yourself a chance to be happy. Ask your DH to make the call if you can't - just write it down, hand it to him with your eyes shut and walk away so you don't even have to listen to him making the appointment.

@Moxie, R still wants your old glasses. Seriously, every time she sees the image, she asks me why I haven't got them for her yet. It's now getting to the aggreived tone of voice. "WHEN are you getting me those glasses, mommy? Soon? I *asked*."

[Julie]

I would like to have a shirt/mug/bumper sticker that just said "Moxie" and nothing else. Or a little logo or something. Nothing catchy or snazzy.....because this is so much more than just a gimmick. And to be driving around (in Santa Monica.....anyone?? anyone???) and to see another bumper sticker that said "Moxie" on it....I'd be honking and waving and basically making a fool of myself b/c I would know I've found a kindred spirit (to quote Anne Shirley)

something small - the size of a parking permit. Just large enough to see from the car behind me. Simple black letters on a white background. I'm torn on putting the url on there because while I want to shout Moxie from the rooftops for all the support and laugh and tears I've found here, this community has grown by word of mouth from like-minded people, passed on in person. I certainly don't want it to grow into another forum of bitching, judging and/or bragging that you can so easily find on other parenting sites.

[Jan]

I vote for a t-shirt that says 'MoxieMom'.

Definitely not "Got Moxie?" We don't want Moxie to be sued! Remember the 'The Other White Milk'
http://thelactivist.blogspot.com/2007/02/overzealous-big-pork-stomps-on.html
fiasco?

[hedra]

@too fed up (again), can I say that I didn't even fess up to any online forums that I had PPD until after I was doing something about it? I just vanished from sight for a while. And one, I never went back to, even though they were very supportive of PPD issues, just because I was online there when I realized that something was wrong. Shame issue? Um, yeah. So, anyway, you're still ahead of me on this.

You are still the very best parent for your child. I know my brain would snap right to 'well, it sucks to be her, then!' but it doesn't. It just sucks to be where you are right now. Get someone else to take the action that feels impossible to do - if your DH will drive home to cover for you, then he'll make the phone call, too. And if he knows how hard this is, then he'll likely drive you to the appointment, or find some way to get you there safely. You're that precious to them both.

[meggiemoo]

@Moxie...you got it. Email me the graphic and we can discuss details. I'm excited!

@Fed up...I was you a year and a half ago. Sleep deprivation is real, it's cumulative and it's crushing. Right now it's messing with your head. Your body is screaming at you to get some sleep, but your mind is telling you to focus on your child. There have been lots of discussions on here about ways to get help, but do get some relief from your husband/family/babysitter. You need some 4-hour chunks of sleep to feel better. I know it sucks the big one, but it does get better. My crappy sleeper does now sleep through the night...mostly.

@Nut Mommy...my husband has social anxiety. He's extremely sensitive. I'm extremely sensitive. We have psychological issues on both sides of the family. Had we lived in medieval times, no one in their right minds would have joined these two genetic pools together. Yet...I adore him.

Our son? He's, you guessed it, extremely sensitive. Too early to tell if he'll have anxiety issues, but we'll deal with that when/if it happens. In my case, a lot of times, I have to "fake it 'til I make it". Meaning, I push myself to be more out there socially.

I do this for my own good as well as my son's. Be easy with yourself...your own anxieties will probably allow you to be particularly sensitive to any that crop up in your son. I've found that focusing on my DS's needs allows me to "get out of my own head" for a change.

[Moxie]

@Too Fed Up: You need sleep. Sleep. I'm sorry your husband has to go to work, but YOU WORK TOO!

Email him the link to the 14 Tips to Prevent PPD over on the side of the screen, tell him you're losing your effing mind and will need to be hospitalized soon, and you need to sleep.

This is a serious health risk, and shouldn't be treated with anything but serious care on his part. He wouldn't let you go into a coma if you had diabetes. This is comparable.

If you need 5 nights sleeping in a hotel by yourself, or a babysitter all day for a week, that's what it's going to take.

[hedra]

(sorry I keep going to the PPD end - the sleep salvage methods make a huge difference, too!)

[caramama]

@too fed up - You can still email me any time. caramamamia at gmail dot com. I'm finally coming out of my PPD and finally getting more sleep (minus the last week and a half), and let me tell you how much better it can be. But it's hard (so so hard) to do it alone. My husband and therapist and this site (plus some other sites) got me through it. And even this past week with a sleep regression, my outlook and ability to deal is SO much better because I don't have the PPD on top of it.

It's hard to get help. It's hard to reach out when you feel isolated. But (group)you will feel so much better if you do. (this last part was for everyone.)

@rudyinparis - Thank you for writing that last comment. I love it. :-)

[stacy]

AmyinMotown's comment made me smile. The thin, stylish moms are SO INTIMIDATING, aren't they? How do they find the money to buy those nice clothes? How do they manage not to have their shirt stained half a dozen times by 10am? How did they lose that baby weight so fast?

I've been lucky - I found a great group of moms here in Nebraska. In fact, while I'm thrilled to leave Nebraska this summer for a thousand reasons...I'm also REALLY NERVOUS about what moving will do to my social life and therefore my crucial support system. We didn't evolve to do this alone.

But at least I know I can still "talk" to my Nebraska mommy friends online once I move. We have a message board (and we do playdates and stuff in person, too). It's funny - the playdates are all lighthearted and pretty benign, but as soon as we go online we're all confessing our Bad Mommy Moments and frantically asking each other for advice. We're not really comfortable with talking about this stuff face-to-face, at least not in depth like we do online. I think it takes a long time to develop that kind of trust, but most women don't have that sort of time. Thank God for the internet making it easier...but then, of course, I have to battle my internet addiction...

[Missy]

Very interesting discussion. My best friend from college and I live about 45 minutes apart and both have small children. It's difficult to get together because of nap time, etc, so we have tried to get together for an overnight or weekend at one of our houses. Packing is easy because we don't need a lot of extras - the other person has spoons, bibs, wipes, pack n play, extra clothes and diapers. We spend the weekend doing the normal routines - making meals, cleaning up, etc., but can do all of it while chatting and catching up. Plus we really get to know one another's children. If we are lucky, the kids go to bed easily and we can spend the evening chatting without interruption, watch a movie or crack open a bottle of wine. So this is another idea for friends that live close but the visiting logistics are tricky!

[Charisse]

I would so wear a "moxie mom" pin every day. You know, one of those 3/4" ones, subtle. I had the nicest coffee a few months ago with another writer mom I met here. I'm moderately introverted by nature and I'm more of a "few close friends" than a "lots of acquaintances" person--I'd generally rather be alone than hang out with someone who's not a great match--but OTOH I find it easy to approach strangers. I saw a mom on the train last night with the telltale breastpump bag and just said, hey, I know what you've got in there--good for you and how are you doing? Turned out she had a 6-month-old, her job requires her to be in a different location every day and she never knows how exactly she's going to manage to pump...so she's kinda stressed. We had a really nice conversation, I mentioned this site.

I feel isolated at times, but much better than a couple years ago, probably because a (almost) 4-year-old is just more able to be part of the world than a younger kid. I think much of my own isolation has been self-imposed--I work at a small company where I'm the oldest person by 6 years, and nobody else is partnered or bechilded. My colleagues are actually really cool, open to when I need to bring Mouse to the office occasionally, etc. but I feel like I'm imposing on them if I talk about parenthood. I'm probably not--they mostly find it interesting in an anthropological sort of way--but when they're talking about the music festivals they went to on the weekend I just edit myself. And my best mommy friend, the one I connected with not just because we're parents (which is something) but because we would have become friends anyway, moved across the country a year and a half ago. Sigh. Meeting her & fam for a vacation in a couple weeks, it will be so nice to see them daily for a bit. In the interim, this site helps sooo much--and I do have fantasies of like talking to a friendly woman on an airplane and figuring out we know each other from here and havign an omg moment. Pins. Definitely.

[Katie B.]

I'm and introverted SAH, and have been struggling with this very question for 3 1/2 years - and I don't even have a kid yet! When I was in school and lived near people I'd been friends with for years (not to mention family), and had a job in the summer, I had just as much social contact as I wanted, and plenty of alone time. Then I moved to another state, where I don't have a job (although I've started a career, albeit one with exceedingly irregular work) and have spent most of the time since online, one way or another, and not only do I crave face to face contact, but I'm not used to it anymore, so I dread summer vacations when DH is home (he's a teacher) and have trouble with people visiting. It's horrible. As much as I want this baby, I dread not having alone time anymore as much as I dread being stuck alone with baby. My brother moved here recently, but he and his fiance have their own stuff going on, and can be expected to be sympathetic about baby woes, but not really "get" it. DH's family is nearby, but I have nothing in common with pretty much any of them, and the parenting style I expect to use is very different from what's more traditional in his family. I"m sure my MIL will be willing to work with the way I choose to parent, but I also expect to get pressure about things like "extended" nursing, and I just don't want to deal with it. I've made contact with a local AP mom's group, and have been working on making more real connections there, but with no kid yet I feel an outsider - and while the group in general is really good about making room for everyone's variations in style and choices, there are some very outspoken members who are very emphatic about certain issues that I don't necessarily agree with. So I keep quite when those topics come up (it's primarily an email list), but it's hard when I don't know anyone for sure nearby who's likely to agree with me on a majority of topics. My closest real friend (also an introvert) is 600 some miles away - definitely not close enough for casual visits - and we don't get to talk nearly enough, with her work schedule and her daughter's needs. I feel pretty confident that I can meet surface social needs with people in the area, but I already know that my deeper social needs aren't being met here. Maybe I should work harder on making contact with people on my mom's list that I already know I have a few more things in common with (at least one of whom I have seen posting here! Hi, Wavybrains!). It's just so hard to dig myself out of my shell and my routine isolation.

Definitely enjoying the warmer weather, and hoping it dries up enough that I can work in my new garden soon!

[Robin]

@ Too Fed Up - Hugs to you. Like RudyinParis said, one minute at a time, one hour at a time. I know where you are, wanting to call in sick but knowing you can't. I know the avoidance issue all to well, and my heart is aching for you. Definitely see a doctor, as Hedra suggested. Also there was a great post here on Moxie a few months ago called Lack of Sleep Making Eyes Bleed or something like that which had some great suggestions.

[Katie B.]

Oh, yes, definitely a pin. I'd get enough to put on purse/knitting bag/diaper bag etc. Maybe do a tote option (does CafePress do that?) so I can have yet another knitting bag? ;)

[Robin]

I do like the idea of a onesie, "my mom asks Moxie" or something like that. I'd give it as a shower gift. In a way I feel like I'm giving a gift whenever I mention this site to another mom.

[pnuts mama]

i am totally blowing off my time to get some writing done to read all the comments and absorb...so much for my third goal (again!)

wow, i am never disappointed with the amount of collected wisdom here- i wish my graduate seminars were like this, people sharing their experiences and actually listening to each other and gleaning out new perspectives, instead of just filling the room with their own voices.

rudyinparis, your comments on substituting virtual communities for real life ones is so interesting to me- the research and writing i do on our generation's tendencies for this shows why the trend is growing (break down of the community, increase in work hours, distrust of institutions and organizations that formerly tied groups of people together being replaced with the 'safety' of online communities of anonymous people that you aren't really accountable to, that you can reveal only select, chosen parts of yourself to, etc etc) and there certainly is a lot of speculation as to how it will all play out. add all of our new ways to disconnect from face-to-face communication with technological forms, and the sociologist in me is fascinated.

it is hard to make (actual) friends in real life- for a variety of reasons for each individual. the breakdown of a living social network has certainly influenced the rising depression and anxiety rates for men and women our age, combined with (usually unseen) forces in advertising/the media that make money by categorizing and compartmentalizing us into individuals, constantly pitting us against each other in some ridiculous unwinable competition.

this is where so much of the judgment comes from- plus, i think that we spend so!much!time! making even the smallest decisions (i am so guilty of this) that everything becomes so vested- that we can't help but be critical that someone else has made a different decision. because even as a society that is increasingly tolerant of pluralism and diversity, we really are more comfortable with those concepts in the abstract, not in day-to-day situations. it is a constant cycle for me, personally, to remind myself "wtf do i care that her kid wears a princess shirt/eats whatever/does whatever?" in the long run, there are very few values that i can honestly draw a line in the sand with and say "i just won't ever be ok with." my faith also likes to pipe up and whisper in my ear "you're equal, not better than, you're equal, not worse than" to keep me honest. but that's not so easy to keep in my minds forefront, either.

i will say that this community has given me the strength and the confidence to trust my own mama-self. the idea of me being my child's best parent (an imperfect mama to an imperfect person) is one i never would have come up with on my own. so thank you.

***
for the record, i live in queens, which is like the forgotten (well, ok, staten island is the forgotten one, maybe we're just the out-of-the-house college student) step-sibling of manhattan, and it would be lovely to have face time with any of you if you're ever around or in town or flying through. i write a blog in my own head everyday (and it's fabulous! ha!)- but find it near impossible to get all the crap done that i need to to begin with, that i just haven't been able to justify actually doing it for real. but thanks, my advisor would also love to read what i write everyday. so i should get back to that. heh.

[Simone]

I joined a moms' group when my first son was 5 months. And looking back, I cannot even imagine life without it. Sure, I am not "friends" with everyone is the group. (Though I think that's good, too--just like at work every day, it's important to get along with people you don't necessarily like, or with whom you disagree.) But, the friends I HAVE made have created this "village" environment that provides everything from mundane chatter about "poopsplosions" to a shoulder to cry on during times of crisis and our other support systems (e.g. husbands) may not be available (working). Sometimes, when I'm just bone-weary from the drugery, or excited about milestones, it's so great to have a group of women--all very different, mind you--that GET IT, and HAVE BEEN THERE. It's amazing how much patience other people have for other people's children (when they are driving their own parents up a wall). Sure, I have "diversified" interests like the occasional freelance gig and other hobbies, but this business of parenting is a full-time job, and it's nice to have "coworkers" who, like you said, help me keep everything in perspective. They have talked me off my ledge many a times. And recently, having gotten more exposure to on-line resources (like Moxie and you all), I feel like I have a support system around me that I can tap into anytime...what a great feeling!

[pnuts mama]

@too fed up- you are not alone- in fact, most of us have been there.

i'll echo what everyone else has said to get some sleep, and now- do whatever you can, it will make a huge difference. there is a reason why sleep deprivation is considered torture- it will slowly but easily rip your sanity apart.

the fact that you had the courage to post confirms to me that you are an awesome mama and will do whatever it takes to make sure your baby and yourself will get the help you need. hugs to you!

[Sherry]

@ Fed Up -- It's going to get better. Get help if you can. Antidepressants -- good.
@ Robin and Melissa -- I'm in Atlanta. But those words "bitterness" and "whiner" are sure in my vocab.
@ Chaosgirl -- Yes to the guilt. I stopped pumping a few weeks ago. A half ounce at a time was too demoralizing. So silly how worried we are about this. Must stop with the guilt!!!

[Cloud]

The pins idea is cracking me up. I visualize us as the Moxie Underground, recognizing other members and then giving a secret handshake and starting to vent about potty training or something.

But seriously, it is a good idea if it helps us find supportive real life communities, so don't let my overactive imagination ruin the fun!

@Fed Up- I'll second what Moxie said- you are doing a job, too. I now work outside the home, at a fairly high energy job. I find a day alone with my daughter far, far more tiring than a day at work. Hubby recognized that early on, and kept taking one of the nightfeedings even when he was back at work and I wasn't. Don't be a martyr. Tell your Hubby you need the help. If he balks (and I bet he doesn't), ask him if he wants a sleep -deprived zombie in charge of the welfare of his baby. You need to sleep! Everything is better with a little more sleep.

Get the help you need, get a sleep holiday at a hotel if you can, and then try to work out a schedule where you get at least 4 uninterrupted hours most nights. Trust me, it will make a big difference.

And you can email me, too- wandsci at gmail dot com. I didn't have PPD, but believe me, I know the effects of sleep deprivation.

Hang in there. It will get better. Especially if you get your Hubby to help!

[Lisa F.]

sooo many people wrote things that I could've. at home for the past 33 months, participating in loads of playgroups & stuff, I go through periods where I schedule us to do loads of things, then I get worn down by hustling to get everywhere, and back in time for napping & napping has been SUCH a bear for that whole entire time.

pnuts mama, I've got the same situation where it seems moms either are breezing through Stepford like, or don't want to be vulnerable, it's a horrible loop, noone wants to stick their neck up & be the only F-up. So I've been that person in the group that started w/folks from our childbirth class. My massage therapist & I talked about how hard it is to be vulnerable, and gave me a name, She Who Speaks Emotions, as a way to befriend the emotional me, labeled as Too Sensitive oh so many years ago. so then I'm brave enough to do it, and nobody can handle it. almost nobody, one mom was able to thank me & share some stuff, but she's hardly ever involved in the groups. No one's checked in since I was vulnerable.

my dh is also sensitive & anxiety prone. the isolation has been horrific for him as well. all he does is work & relieve me. he has no friends. I also discovered years ago that I was medicating w/alcohol for social anxiety & stopped, but didn't do anything to help the anxiety. it's gotten worse & worse.

I'm more active & more out & about than ever, but it wears on me, and the conversations at parks are fractured as we manage our kids. I'm 43 almost 44 w/a 2.5 year old (if anyone else calls me grandma I'm going to let them have it.) there's a lack of older moms too, and we live in a high end university town w/lots of monied folk, and while we're college educated & intellectual, we're kind of in limbo between working class background & yuppies or whatever you'd call them now. we don't fit in w/the wealthier younger folks, and we don't fit in w/the locals (we're New Englanders in the southeast.) my husband is a retail manager w/an ok(no nights & 2 days off in a row) but sometimes unpredictable schedule (we frequently don't know whether he'll have Sat/Sun or Sun/Mon as his days off until the week before, argh) so having routines as a family is difficult.

I also worry that my worries and how crappy I feel lately are going to scar my sensitive bright kid, and I get bogged down in that fear. Read recently that boredom is a risk factor for anxiety/depression, add that to the stresses of parenting w/family 7 states away, and no help.

The Raising Your Spirited Child book is great, I need to re-visit it, author is Mary Sheedy Kurcinka, who also wrote a brilliant book on sleep, Sleepless in America, lots of good information about sleep there, wish I'd had it from the start.

being online is a mixed bag for me, it's safer & easier to be vulnerable anonymously, yet is it replacing effort on IRL relationships, which I have difficulty getting beyond superficial 'friendships?'

ah, so many comments & I can't keep up. hugs to all lonely suffering moms.

thanks Moxie for this community! and PINS yes, Pins. (as someone who grew up in Maine w/Moxie the softdrink around, I agree w/avoiding anything that could sound like soda!)

[sheSaid]

@jan - I am with on the needing alot of alone time... perhaps more than most. Even if I spent and evening out and about with my extended family (who I LOVE) I need a 'break' when I get back.

I suck at making and keeping friends. I have a hard time calling people back, ect... but once I am there with a friend I chat it up! Eck my own issues

@fed up -
I have called my husband crying and made him come home too. I. JUST. COULDN"T. TAKE. ANY. MORE. I think mom's do need a sick card. We need to be like EH! THAT'S IT! today is a sick day and let someone else deal with it all. My husband came home, and the baby napped and then then went out together and I got some work done... and by the time they were back I missed him a little bit. I think I need to miss him a bit more often it was kinda a nice feeling!
email caramamia she is very nice, I emailed her cause she told me to and it made me feel better... and I didn't want to email her at first cause I hate being a 'whiner'

So I think first off all of us mom's need to get over the not wanting to whine or whatever... because that is exactly what we need to do. We need to get off our chest how much whatever it is sucks and band together and be like... yep it sucks we all think it sucks.

It helps to know others have been there and gone through it and are on the otherside (or still slogging through)

and hey you made it... what worked for you?

When I get out of the house daily it helps, when I manage to get something done that makes me feel good (like getting some work in) that helps... now I just need to work on the having/connecting to more friends bit :)