Keeping perspective

When I was in college, I was taking a psych class, and our professor was interested in hostage situations and terrorist actions. One of the stories he told us about was a group of American soldiers who had been captured and held in a POW camp in Vietnam. Apparently during Vietnam there was a huge rate of brainwashing, as the American soldiers spent time every day being forced to confess all sorts of things they hadn't done, and eventually they started to believe it.

The prisoners at this camp were not all from the same unit, but there was a unit leader who had been captured who took charge of the situation as much as he could. After each POW was taken and forced to confess, he'd come back and the unit leader would force him to use Morse code to tap out the report of what he'd confessed to. By confessing what they'd confessed to, the POWs didn't have to keep it inside themselves and internalize it--they got it out and got reinforcement from the unit leader and the group that they'd been forced to confess but that didn't mean that what they'd said was the truth. When they got out of the camp, the guys who'd been in that particular camp were in far better shape emotionally and mentally than POWs at other camps, because they'd had the companionship and reinforcement of the group, even when they were being tortured and forced to confess.

I thought about that story a lot as I was reading the book I reviewed yesterday about Cynthia Cooper. And I think about that story whenever we end up with a thread in which you guys confess stuff that's making you feel horrible and immediately everyone else jumps in to give you perspective.

As I've said, this isolation thing messes with your head. Whether you're a SAHM alone in the house with her children, or a working mom who reenacts the forced march of home-work-home every day with little interaction with others in your situation, being a mother can be isolating. And without people to confess to who help give you a reality check and some reinforcement, how do we survive?

Can we talk about this? About how lonely this gig can be? And how we can combat that?

Comments

[Malaprop]

Thank you for including working moms in the discussion of isolation - even though I'm getting out of the house every day, I do feel isolated in my early morning wake up (when the rest of the house is sleeping), my trudge to work, and my trudge home. Often, when I get home, my DH goes into work, as he's trying to work and take care of our 6 month old. This means the evenings are just me and my girl. It can get pretty lonesome.

I find I rely heavily on online mom's forums, and have found many "friends" that I'll probably never meet through that . . . Realizing that having real people in my life would probably be a good thing, too, I'm making a special effort to connect with neighbors with young children. I'm also making a special effort to call friends that I've lost touch with in my daughter's newborn months. Having just 1 phone call a night has really helped me feel more connected to my friends, family, and my pre-mom life.

[Erika]

I have never posted here before but this post struck a nerve. We recently moved and I am a SAHM. I have never felt so lonely. I am trying to get involved at a church because our faith is important to us and I have found a gym with free childcare but I am still lonely. It is a hard thing to verbalize because I feel whiny. I swear some days I go to Target just to talk to the cashier. I have met people but it is all really superficial and I constanty feel judged. When I worked I had a pretty high stress job dealing with clients and I never felt judged. I was always confident and sure of my decisions and if I wasn't I could fake it. This being a mom stuff is really hard work. My daughter is 15 months old now and I keep waiting for the uncertainty to wear off but I get the feeling it never does. This site has been very helpful for me because no matter what I do in my parenting I do it out of love and this site makes me feel like that counts for something. Thanks.

[Geeks In Rome]

Mommy (and Daddy) blogs have been my town square where I go daily to look and listen to how others are dealing with the adventure of parenthood. I am surrounded by people, but feel very isolated when it comes to being a mom.
I live in a foreign country and have no family other than my husband's family here and they live out of town. I work full time so I can't benefit from the networking SAHMs around here are engaged in. Then I am very hesitant to talk about family at work for fear I will bore people to death. Many of my collegues either do not have kids or the kids are grown and who wants to hear me go on about teething and diapers.
I think blogging has revolutionized the way people can find out they are not alone in a safe and supportive arena. Your analogy to the Vietnam war vets is brilliant. While keeping journals and diaries was one way we used to sort out our dilemmas and doubts, blogging is like giving someone the key to your diary with the security of anonymity.
I love your blog and you are truly doing a HUGE public service to a lot of women out there. I love your book recommendations and they have helped make me a better mom, too!
Moxie for Prez!

[caramama]

I mentioned a while ago that I am planning to start a play group in my neighborhood. Well, the weather is finally started to get nice enough that I'm ready to venture out and knock on doors. I'm really excited, and yet nervous. I work out of the house during the day, but I've found that most playgroups and moms meet when they are home during the weekdays.

What if I start this group and they all keep meeting without me and then I end up feeling left out and excluded, even if it's unintentional? It's happened before...

But I have combated the loneliness by being part of an online buddy group of moms who all have babies that were born in the same month as mine, I come here just about everyday (and that REALLY helps!), and starting my blog and being part of the mommy blog universe has really helped. Also, I make a lot of phone calls on my cell when I'm driving to and from work to my friends who are also moms (both SAH and WOH), and just chatting with them keeps me feeling less lonely.

[Sarah Lena]

Geeks in Rome nailed a lot of it.. I have a very tight circle of bloggers, most of whom are parents. We all trade stories, confessions, and we sarcastically compete for the "Mother of the Year" title. Finding someone to commiserate with is SO important. And make no mistake, Moxie; a site like this serves as a blog circle for many, many parents.

[Bobbi]

That's the hardst part of this gig for me...the isolation. Especially this time of year when I've been stuck inside for months with an infant and a toddler and stuck to a nap schedule that makes it nearly impossible to get out. I can't wait until summer - my youngest is one now and if we break the routine, it's not such a huge deal anymore. My husband is so supportive, but he gets frustrated with my daily jealousy over his lunches out with his friends. It would be easier if had friends near me, but I live in the Chicago 'burbs, and even though all my friends do too, they are all over an hour drive from me, so everything is a huge production...

Thanks for hosting this forum. Sometimes coming here and reading sage advice or "yeah, me too" from everyone here or getting answers from you and hedra and all the wise women here is what keeps me from running far and running fast. Because aside from the isolation, the worst part of this parenting gig is that it never gets easier. Each age brings unique challenges that are different for each kid. With 4 kids, and as a relatively new SAHM (just 2 years), every day is a learning experience. Just for a little while, it would be nice to feel like I know what I'm doing...

[MrsHaley]

When my daughter was about 7 months old, I was starting to feel isolated and lonely, 7 months into being a SAHM after 10 years at a very social, very interactive job.

I joined several playgroups and moms'groups, made the effort to reconnect with old friends and resolved to keep myself busy and productive. It worked.

I think the isolation and lonliness of mothering is often self-imposed. There are SO many opportunities online (meetup.com) and IRL (the library) to meet other people -- not just other moms -- that it seems self-indulgent to sit at home and feel forgotten. It takes initiative and a certain amount of gumption to put yourself out there to try and make friends, but if you're unwilling to at least try, then you're setting yourself up for lonliness.

I understand the exact nature of friend-making opportunities differs depending on situation and and location, but with an internet connection, a car or a stroller, it's possible. The other option is isolation and lonliness -- not much of a choice there.

[Eva]

I honestly feel more connected and involved now, being a mother, than I ever have before, especially when I was working and had no children. I have all kinds of mommy (and other) friends I talk to all the time, and I go out and see people more, and talk to others more easily. And then there is the blogging, and before that, for me, message boards. I mostly stay home, and I'm in a mothers' group (though haven't made any close connections through it), and I work a little (though I'm a teacher, and so never really interact with the other staff).

Anyway, I know you wanted to hear from people that do feel isolated, but I felt compelled to say that it's not inevitable for everyone, and that these are the ways that isolation seems to stay at bay for me.

[Chaosgirl]

I think the isolation and doubt are among the primary precipitants of PPD. We are social creatures and in few other times in our human history have women raised children in isolation; we were surrounded by sisters, aunts, grandparents, a community of women who passed along information and helped out.

I've been housebound for several weeks due to terrible weather (the snow seems interminable in Toronto this winter) and a terrible cold that has been passed around like a hot potato between myself, my 5 month old son, and my husband for the past 4 weeks. I am used to being out at least once a day for yoga, coffee dates with other moms, movies for mommies, walks, etc. And on desperate days, I go to the local grocery store, just for an excuse to get out and get some fresh air. But with the heaps of snow, icy sidewalks, parking wars (we park on the street so once you leave your spot which you probably spent a day digging out, it's up for grabs), illness, blah blah blah, I almost losing my mind. Seriously. I have felt the first black clouds of depression gathering over my head. Having dealt with SAD every winter, I knew how to combat it but with most of my typical coping mechanisms shut down (exercise, socializing, having a purposeful activity every day), I am losing it.

So I'm making up things to do at home. I've started some kid-oriented craft projects to keep the creative juices flowing, and to preserve a sense of humour. The good news is my little one no longer demands to be in my arms all the time and can enjoy his exersaucer while I'm glue-gunning, making baby food, or seeking solace on Moxie!

Once spring arrives, I know all this will pass. I just have to hang on until then...

Ah the wee one is up. I must go!

[rudyinparis]

Huge topic. This may be way off, but part of what I see contributing to the isolation is how polarized we've become, ideologically, as a culture. It's not just the House of Reps, you know? I think we have become in general less able to deal with people who make different choices than us. I'm certainly guilty of this, too. This community is one of those rare public spaces where there's an implicit agreement to leave that crap at the door. I don't know how you so successfully fostered that environment, Moxie, but you did. So, like, when Caramama talks about creating a playgroup I think about how risky that is because who knows what nutcases that would involve. I mean, it's a risky venture! So I think part of the isolation is caused by our inability to ease up on the judging. Our inability to say: You know what, she's doing it different than me and she votes different than me and I want to hang out with her because me and my kids will benefit from being around people different than us. And hopefully she'll think the same of me." (And I'm so proud of myself for including myself in the "too much judging" category because I definitely look around and think everyone is doing it EXCEPT ME (lol).)

Then there's the whole urban planning issue, and the rising cost of fuel. Hey--I said it was a big topic, didn't I? I'm lucky to live right in a city and to have easy access to public transport, but let's be honest, it's hard to get around these days no matter how you choose to do it. And then consider the fact that my parents, who I'm very close to, live on the other side of the country. My sister, who I'm very close to, lives halfway across the world.

Online sources are fantastic and I know they've changed who we are, how we communicate, and our whole idea of "community" but I worry that we close ourselves off from equally meaningful human interaction in real time if we start to believe that an online world can provide us with the human contact we need.

[Kelly]

I'm weirdly proud of the fact that I deal as well as I do with my situation. SAHM and we've only got one car so hubby takes that to work. I get out of the house, usually, once a week on errands on the weekend. We don't live near anybody (rural) and we can't go for walks (my kids and myself) since the road outside our house is a major road and has no sidewalks. Thank goodness for the internet. And books. I keep sane by keeping busy. Thank goodness, too, that I'm more of an introvert/loner than a social butterfly. Granted, being stuck at home certainly isn't easy, but it could be a lot worse.

[paola]

@geeks in rome

I really understand where you're coming from. I live on the outskirts of Milan, have only my husbands family( well his mother and some 3rd cousins of his) and don't have any non-Italian friends, and I've been here 8 years. All was pretty difficult in the pre-Noah days, but since he was born 3 years ago, things have slowly gotten better. It was pretty isolating at first but slowly you start to see the same old faces, stop to chat, and then some kind of regular interaction evolves over time. And now that he has started going to kinder, there are even more daily interactions, which makes life pleasant.

I love the regular contact with the few online buddies that I have 'met' thru Moxie. I can't believe that I have disclosed so many personal things like discussing my sex-life and details of my PPD that I have never ever told my closest friends. It is such a releif sometimes knowing that certain things are so 'normal', or at least that you are not the only one who feels that way. I am sooooo grateful to Moxie and this fantastic community of women for this.

[Moxie]

MrsHaley, I know you don't mean it this way, but your post sounds like it's judging people who aren't extroverts! I mean, saying it's "self-imposed" is kind of a different way of saying "Too bad if your innate personality makes it hard for you to put yourself out there day after day--it's your own fault."

I'm guessing you're a lot more like me, in that you just walk up to people and start talking. But there are a lot of people for whom doing that would be like learning a language with a completely different written system and tone system. So saying that they just have to make more of an effort, and that if they don't it's their own fault, well, that is another way of saying they're "not enough," you know?

Maybe there should be some sort of Extrovert Moms-Find-An-Introverted-Friend Day every year...

[ellen]

Holy cow, did I need this post. I'm not a regular commenter, but this one really struck a nerve. I was just in the midst of feeling as though I needed to get out of the blogosphere to form some more live connections, and then I read this, and I am reminded why I blog, why this community is so important.

Isolation has been the single most difficult obstacle in parenting I have faced. I'm a northerner living in the south, and this has presented some obstacles (not being baptist, for one). You have reminded me that I need to both get out of the house (and talk to people in real time) and reaffirm my connection to those I have found through the net.

As always, Moxie, thanks for reading my mind.

[JB]

Rudyinparis said it! I honestly think it's hard to connect with people who are different from us, partly because we judge and partly because we fear being judged. And in one way or another, EVERYONE is different from us: politics, religion, taste in books and films. I was at a baby shower recently, and all these moms were sitting around talking. Two of us co-sleep, two others couldn't imagine doing that. Two had weaned at seven months, two had nursed until their kids were three. Epidural, no meds, c-section. Solids at three months, five months, six months. Differences about vaccines. All I felt was relief! It was so refreshing to talk about those things, even if we weren't all nodding in unison. We were all doing what we did out of love for our kids! It was almost like reading Moxie. :)

[Michelle]

Erika- Hang in there. You aren't stuck with the loneliness and things are likely to get a lot better as you adjust. My advice is to 1) do a bunch of activities and see if talking to people and being less isolated WORKS and, 2) if you still feel bummed out even though you are getting more social contact, consider whether you are really missing something specific from work, and 3) if nothing works and you are starting to get more and more blue, consider whether you are depressed and should check in with a doctor.

So...here are my ideas for the first tier- activities that might reduce the isolation:

-Start or join a Mom's group. I did this by posting on DC Urban Moms (a parenting listserve) that I was looking for other new parents to go for an occasional health walk and out to coffee. I got one taker in my neighborhood, and it worked out really well. Since you belong to a church, that might be a place where you could start some kind of Mom's group.

-At your gym, focus on taking classes and doing group activities. Find one that you attend no-matter-what every week and befriend the other regulars.

-Use your kids! Go to a busy kid's place and chat up the other parents. The best places for this by me are the playground, the indoor playground at the mall, and the kid's room at the public library.

-Get away from your kid! Do whatever it takes to get somebody else to regularly watch your kid for a short amount of time and get out of the house. Preferably to meet a friend or do something other than, say, buying diapers.

-Get back to your roots- find some hobby or pass-time you enjoyed pre-kids and pick it back up again. If you don't have time, then let something else go to make time. I decided to learn how to make pasta. BONUS- if you can find something that is a group activity, even better.

-Invite people over for dinner. Make it simple and you'll be more likely to do it often- it could be frozen pizzas and beer. If dinner just won't work...then do a brunch.

-Dare I say it? If you are still REALLY lonely after a long time, then work one day a week. Even if that isn't a possibility for your old career, you could try working at the library or as a temp for a few hours a week. Consider co-ordinating this with a local nursery school program for two year olds (they often meet two mornings a week).

-Finally, take a deep breath and really consider what it will take to make you feel more confident about your parenting. IMHO the "uncertaintly" you mentioned is always a part of parenting- by the time you've figured something about your kid out, she evolves and you are back to wondering what to do. You have to get past that and know that nobody loves your kid more than you or is better equipped to meet each new challenge than you are. And try not to worry too much about whether you are doing the right thing.

Good luck!

[Carrie]

This is so true. I don't know how mothers did it before blogging. I am finally starting to find my niche in the real life local mothering community, but for the past two years blogging has been my life line. You mean I'm not the only mom who wanted to abandon her screaming baby in the dressing room at Target? I'm not the only one who has to go lock her self in the bathroom while the baby is screaming in the swing? It's normal to let your kids watch TV even though everyone says it is terrible? I'm so glad I live in a day and age where I can make this connection with virtual strangers and know that we are all more similiar than different.

[Carrie]

I should add that I have been heavily involved in local playgroups and moms clubs for the past two years. It helped immensely even when I felt that I had nothing but a baby in common with the other women in the group. Even when I was uncomfortable and anti-social, I put in face time. I was at every possible event. Finally two years of hard work is paying off and I've met three women in the past two months that I REALLY connect with.

Also, I go to the gym every day. I haven't made any connections there, but the free babysitting has been a major source of sanity. I'm sure the endorphins help as well. But I'm still fat *lo*.

[snickollet]

Excellent topic.

I think that isolation can come in a couple of forms. There is the physical isolation that parents can feel when they don't get a lot of opportunities to be out of the house and interact with other adults. This is not an issue for me, personally. I work out of the home and on weekends the twins and I do lots of playdates and go for walks and take trips to the library and museums and such. That's just the way I am--I'm a doer, so unless we have a snow day or something, I rarely feel that sense of physical isolation that some people do.

What I struggle with is the mental isolation that I think is particularly challenging for single parents. I am always on when I am with the twins. It's me and me alone making all of the decisions about discipline, meals, activities, you name it. Granted, I have a lot of IRL and online friends I use for support. But in the daily grind, in the head of the moment, it's just ME. I second-guess myself all the time and feel frustrated and alone as I make decisions that work one day and not the next. That unpredictability is a killer for me. I know that's just the way parenting is, but it's HARD. And it makes me feel terribly lonely and isolated not to have someone to share that burden with me.

Thank goodness for the online world. It's a big, big help. Without meaning to sound like a whiner, though, a spouse would be better.

[MorahLaura]

Thanks for this topic, Moxie; I read your blog every day but have never posted before.

I am a SAHM. I have a two daughters, a 5 yr old with whom I worked full time starting when she was about 10 months old (I was part time before that and my husband was unemployed so he stayed with her.. tough times, those) and a 1 yr old with whom I went back to my full-time job for exactly 1 week before I decided that it just wasn't going to work, emotionally or financially, for me to leave her in day care at 3 months old. I gave them notice and didn't look back, so since July 7, 2007 I have been a SAHM for the first time in my life, really.

And it's been the hardest thing, ever.

After I got over the guilt of no longer helping earn money, got past the PPD that hit like a ton of bricks when the baby turned 6 months, and recovered from the shock of finding out I had gotten pregnant again when the baby turned 8 months (intentional, but not expected so soon!), the boredom set in. Just in time for winter.

I spent 8+ weeks battling colds, flus, stomach bugs, morning sickness, both kids came down with Fifth Disease (yikes!), and I was so bored staying in the house I could scream. Honestly, if it hadn't been for this website, I think I would have gone completely stir crazy.

I agree with MrsHaley, in that to some extent my boredom and isolation are self-imposed, but in this climate (western Massachusetts) and with all the illnesses this year, I don't think I really had much choice. It was nice to get out of the house and chat with the pediatrician. I don't do so well in the "family center" type situations, but I think I have been able to make a friend via my own blog (she found me because she had moved to my town).

It's hard. I miss my work friends very much, but even so, I'll tolerate the boredom and the cabin fever because for me, staying home with these little ones is more important.

[giddy]

Thanks Moxie for your thoughts on MrsHaley's comments. I had the same reaction. No need to say more about that!

[Moxie]

OK, now I'm worried that my comment seemed judgmental to MrsHaley! I really just meant that it's not as easy as making the effort, because sometimes that's insurmountable if you're an introvert.

[onehappycow]

@ Sarah Lena - my BFF's and I have the same "Mom of the Year" Award! Funny how it is serious when we talk about our hubbys (look what he did, he's so wonderful), yet it became a sarcastic thing for us. Hmmm...

I really really felt this way over the last year. Luckily I had other groups (breastfeeding, etc). But even one day a week didn't seem like enough for me (I am a TOTAL extrovert/social butterfly). All of my family and friends were out of town. But I did okay by getting out.

Then we moved home with my family for a couple months, but even though I had company all the time; I still felt isolated as a relatively new mom. That was really hard.

We have moved yet again (my hubby is in the military) to a place where a lot of people are transient just like us. Here I got involved with playgroups, some new friends with kids, a gym class for her, and a gym with childcare for myself. Needless to say I have never been happier or feel more confident than I do right now.

This site has been a blessing to me, if only that I feel "normal". Sigh. Thanks so much!

@snickollett - I feel the same way a lot of times, and I do have a spouse! So keep up the good work and hang in there! I can't even imagine doing what you do!

[Jill]

My six yo asked why he has limits on "screen time" and I'm "always" on the computer. I couldn't answer him. It's my sanity. I NEED all the blogs. I NEED to read the news. I need something to connect me to the outer world. I feel claustrophobic. I feel lonely.

My kids are past the playgroup age. The playgroup friends didn't live close by and when preschool started we all went different ways. Now I have kids 4 & 7 and a new isolation has started. As soon as both kids are in school, many of my acquaintances have gone back to work. Not an issue to me, but a problem in that I need daytime company. And I still, after all these years, haven't quite figured out how to get it.

A man who worked at my grocery store just passed away suddenly. I found myself grieving out of proportion with what I would have expected. But really, I talked to him at least once a week and there aren't many other people about whom I can say that.

I'm promising myself that I will start to volunteer at the elementary school next fall. I can't think of other opportunities to get involved, but I think it'll be a good start.

Meanwhile, I've found that many bloggers don't post on Fridays. Thanks for being around when I need you, Moxie!

[pnuts mama]

didn't have time to do more than skim the comments (on our way to library play group, where i really don't talk to anyone that much but it gets me out of the house)- but i just wanted to pipe in that for *me*, the worst isolation was the first year, 18 months of pnuts life- stuck in the house, no friends with babies willing to admit how difficult this was, and a kid who didn't move, so i couldn't really bring her to a playground, etc. and the irony of having moved back to the area where my whole family is and yet they are completely useless to me has been frustrating as well. since she started 'moving', it has given me the chance to at least try out opportunities to meet other moms in the area and talk/relate.

the thing i found most isolating (it's better now, with a toddler) is how DIFFICULT this gig is (maybe b/c toddlers are difficult as a rule? everyone can admit that their kid is crazy at times w/o feeling like the odd one?)- it is hard for me to find anyone to say "this is really hard and i wasn't expecting that"- most folks i know put on their stepford faces and tralala through. maybe it's where we live, maybe it's all the competition, the lack of trust to be vulnerable, i don't know.

i think having one IRL friend with a kid who is friends with my kid has made a huge difference for me, as well as finding *supportive* communities like this one online. i feel incredibly blessed to have *finally* found someone that i can relate to, and like a lot. it goes without saying how incredibly blessed i feel to have found all of you. thanks, moxie, for giving us the chance to be ourselves here.

[Kelly]

I honestly don't know what I would do without the handful of parent blogs that I read. I'm introverted to begin with and I made a few "mommy" friends but all of my pre-baby friends are still childless so it's hard to socialize when I get the inkling to do so. My isolation is compounded by my husband working long hours and taking the car with him. To combat these feelings, I buy too many things online, write and read blogs. I know that this one day will pass.

[robin]

This couldn't be more timely. I have been feeling so low for the past month, it is starting to worry me. I work full time in an office with just one other person and have a hefty commute (1 hr each way). Currently I'm the breadwinner of our family, my husband is an academic and just starting out, so his income & schedule fluctuate wildly from one semester to the next. He stays home with our 10 month old son during the day and when I get home I often feel that I'm intruding on their turf if that makes any sense. I am feeling estranged from my husband and even my son right now, not to mention from my pre-baby friends (none of whom have children) and other moms I've met (most of whom also work full time). I feel a level of bitterness that just can't be healthy, and I'm kind of at a loss for what to do about it. My son is nursing less and less and although I know it isn't right to take it personally, I do. It hurts my feelings. There's my confession.

This site is a lifeline for me. Just reading every day makes me feel a part of a community, even if I don't comment often.

[AmyinMotown]

I think rudyinparis hit the nail right on the head, that the judginess makes it very hard to make new friends. I rarely in my adult life have had a hard time making friends (I am a pretty friendly person) until I became a mom and now it feels all junior-high-ish again. I am overweight and we have no money so I don't dress trendy or even especially cute, and it seems like moms of little kids my own age all have money and don't like hanging with people who don't and the ones who are also struggling a little are like 10-15 years younger. And that leaves aside the parenting-issue judginess, which is brutal. Plus, I kind of have a foot in both the SAHM and WOHM camps since I work at home, so my most isolating times of day are afternoons but a) that's naptime, for (THANK GOD) both kids now, and b) my already existing friends with like one exception are all at work then!

That being said, it's gotten easier since Maggie was a baby. I'm more confident as a mom, and as she's gotten older it's been easier to hang with my friends who all have kids a year or so older than her--a 4.5 and a 3 y/o can play together lot better than a 2 y/o and a six month old. And, I've met some awesome local moms, and, I don't know, things have just fallen more into place, I guess.

I wish there was some, like, button or Tshirt we could wear that proclaims our lack of judgy assholeism so those of us who have some perspective about our parenting choices could know to approach each other on common ground, and new moms feeling a little shaky and insecure would know we'd welcome a chance to buck them up and tell them they are doing great. I know I sometimes take comments that are meant in a friendly way as judgement if I don't know the person, and even judge people myself if the person I am chatting with lines up with people I have found to be pains in the ass in the past, even if they seem so awesome. Moxie, wanna come up with a logo?

[Moxie]

AmyinMotown, that's funny! Today I was looking at a fair-trade catalog and saw a lapel pin shaped like an olive branch and thought I should wear it on the subway to remind myself not to get upset about the small stuff and give people the benefit of the doubt.

[Alison S]

I think that the sense of loneliness can continue to be a problem, in a different way, indefinitely. I am in a very different place from most of you, in that my children are now 13 and 9, and I am past the bonetired hands-on stage, but entering the teenage years means entering a whole different phase where you second guess your decisions the whole time and can't share things with all and sundry, although for different reasons. My 13 year old can behave like a complete bitch to her little sister and to me, sometimes, and can say or do things that are just completely impossible to justify or rationalise - such as arguing this morning that while she has no intention of buying her sister a birthday present this year, her sister is still obliged to buy her one - and it can be very lonely to arbitrate and deal with this day after day, with few people with whom one can share things, because they all know the daughter and I don't want to badmouth her with people she knows. Venting online really helps; so does talking to my mum, who is always on my side. I think the two big plusses of the online community are that one need never meet these people in person, so can be honest, and can usually find someone else in the same position as one is oneself (though there those with little kids have the advantage). But motherhood can be tough and lonely, and I think that carries on, intermittently, for a long time.

[MrsHaley]

Of course I didn't mean to imply that introverts are any "less" because it might be harder for them to solve this problem. They probably don't get in trouble for opening their big mouths as much as I do!

So I'm not saying it's not really hard to go out and make friends (online or IRL) -- much harder for some people than others. But in this case, relief takes some kind of action -- like the whole list of ideas Michelle had -- not with maintaining the status quo. That action can be whatever works for the individual ... it's hard weather it comes naturally or not (like Carrie said).

Of course, it's more complicated than just "making the effort" ... you make the effort and get disappointed by jerks like Rudyinparis & Amyinmotown said, or there's a huge cultural divide like Paola & geeks in Rome, or you're working against the SAHM/WOHM/whatever thing, or single parenting complicates the typical solutions ...

It's hard. For everybody. But change is possible.

[megan]

Wow, Moxie, your topic and timing are perfect, as usual. Erika's comment could have been written by me. And like Ellen, I'm not a regular commenter, but yeah, struck a nerve here too. I always imagined that becoming a mom would be like getting into the club, and the other moms would automatically accept and support me. You know, like we're all in this mom thing together. Ha. So it's nice that in this little corner of the internet, there is always, always, always someone who has been though it or is in it with me. Thank you for that.

[heather]

My husband is a stay-at-home-dad now that I am a WOHM and we both find our situations isolating. We live in a neighbourhood with many young kids so my goal for the spring is to start a Playground Group. I will put notices in many mailboxes inviting parents/caregivers and kids to meet daily at the nearby playground. No commitment, no money, no reservations required! I'm not normally an extrovert but I'm so excited about this idea. I can't wait for the winter to end!

[SLim]

Anyone remember those Car Talk T-shirts with the fake greasy fingerprints on it? I want a Mother of the Year shirt with fake wrinkles and jam smears. Although I suppose even at my business casual office, it would be too casual for work.

I have made most of my close mom friends through daycare. Now that I have a kid in school, I have met a few that way (the reason parents stay at older kids' parties? Not because we don't trust the host parents, but so we can chat). But there's a sort of solidarity in the trenches with the people who saw me through my early breakdowns and freakouts -- I know I'm not going to scare anyone by being my authentic, inadequate self.

And yes, thank you, Internet and blogs and especially Moxie, who have provided a lot of support.

Is it wrong that I want some of my favorite posters to start blogs? I know you're busy, but what about *my* needs, huh? Chickenpig, paola, flea, pnuts mama, rudyinparis, I'm not looking at you, demanding more, no I am not. (I was going to type "No no no," but then I heard Ducky's voice --Land Before Time, not Pretty in Pink, just to reveal what's in my head these days.)

[jules]

i deal w/ potential insanity by doing the afternoon nap (13 mo-old still takes 2) in the jogging stroller--rain, snow or shine. this is the luxury of having one i guess. we go for a 2 hour walk, whether she sleeps the whole time or not, and i find that helps heaps w/ feeling human and healthy. of course i have to go alone so that she'll sleep...but i also make room for one or two hikes a week w/ a friend, and have been since she was old enough to take outside.

i wrestle with feeling selfish and somehow remiss for not following a hardcore CIO napping approach--which i'm sure works eventually, i just don't have the stamina. on the flipside, i think that unrealistic expectations for regularity and predictability and control in our lives with kids is one of the main things that makes us get crazy.

i think the personal and emotional isolation is harder.

anyone else go to playgroup and still feel lonely???? which is to say that i know and interact w/ a number of moms but i don't necessarily feel all that comfortable with them...

[DC Ranger]

@Moxie - love your idea of "Extrovert Moms-Find-An-Introverted-Friend Day"!

I'm a suburban WOH mom whose husband travels a lot for work (8 months last year); I spend 2 hours commuting M-F into the city; and I've got a 19-month old son (in daycare) who is astonishly active, with a very intense and spirited personality. I've got a couple of dear girlfriends who live less than 20 miles away, yet I only see or talk to them 1-2x/month, because they also have long commutes & home issues, albeit with 4-6 yr old kids who now have lots of evening & weekend activities. My schedule, with a toddler who's in bed by 8 pm because we have to get moving so early, simply does not mesh with theirs.

Anyone read the book "Raising a Spirited Child"? The author discusses how introverts like me lose mental & physical energy by having to talk & "engage" constantly with others, whereas extroverts gain energy in the same situations. Reading that was a real light-bulb moment because I realized that being in charge of my very extroverted & energetic son for the AM & PM routines & weekends just drains me. Even the occasional outing with my girlfriends is stressful because I have to focus so much on keeping my son out of trouble that I can barely talk to my friends - my brain is just incapable of doing both things at once. I watch in wonder (and envy) as my outgoing friends manage to charm perfect strangers and practically become best friends in the space of 10 minutes (while they monitor their kids at the same time!), but I find that impossible. I never manage to get past basic small talk into something deeper, and while the small talk is better than nothing, it's not very sustaining. I am really feeling the lack of those close, heartfelt conversations that I used to have with my friends, pre-kids, and yet I can't seem to get past all of the daily logistical challenges of our lives to get back to that.

[Heather]

Yes, this is a timely post for me too. I recently transitioned from part-time to full-time work (we needed the $) but I am a one-woman department. It's me alone in an office all day. The kind of work I do does not involve interaction with other people so work feels really lonely. I am also home alone with my daughter before and after work because my husband has a sizeable commute. To put the nail in the coffin, we live in an extremely rural area with no family or friends nearby. I consider myself a fairly outgoing person but feel overwhelmed by all the isolation. I'm jealous of the people who mentioned gyms with free babysitting- that sounds so great! It's also been hard transitioning my daughter from part-time to full-time daycare. She is really struggling emotionally with full-time daycare which makes me feel so guilty and it seems to wear her down so much that she's been sick A LOT this winter so I have been missing a lot of work, which adds stress to isolation. And I really understand you, @robin, because my daughter has now decided that daddy is the coolest human being alive. So I'm greeted in the morning with her looking over my shoulder asking for daddy. That's enough to throw you into PPD at any point, especially when you don't feel overly connected to the rest of your life.

[Maureen]

Moxie... as always you put things out there so nicely and on such relevent topics. I am a Full time Work Outside the Home Mom and I feel so isolated. I get human interaction at work but that doesn't mean those people are true friends - they are busy and after work everyone needs to get home to their family. Once I'm home, I feel I haven't spent any time with my boys so the idea of leaving them to have my own time seems extremely selfish to me. I'm in Southern California so most of my friends live not too many miles away but still a long drive away with traffic. The couple more local moms I've met are busy with their own families and so the ability to get together and connect face to face is really hard. My boys are still young so we need to plan any drives around nap time and don't want to be too far away so they won't fall asleep on the drive home and mess up their one nap.

I live for my Saturdays now... we have a nice routine where we go to music class, have befriended some nice families from class and we now all go get coffee (with the kids) and then a local park for a little while. I feel a connection to those people and I am sure that is one of the many reasons I love the routine so much. That said, those families are friends but not "deep" (not sure how to put that) friends. That takes time to develop.

I think the ironic thing is that it is my pre-baby friends that don't have kids that are the easier and more likely for me to see. And I truly love them and value that... but they don't completely understand some of what I'm going through.

I'm actually jealous of the SAHM that gets to go to the playgroups and do those types of things that are mostly geared to the SAHM (time wise) and then that same SAHM has "earned" the right to go out with her friends occasionally since she has spent a lot of quality time with her children during the day. That's what's interesting about Moxie - I get to hear from the SAHM on this same issue and see that she too feels isolated.

I'm an introvert/shy person by nature so the idea of putting myself out there is as Moxie put it a whole different language for me.

I so value the online community and love Moxie's site - but I also worry about myself in the same way that Rudyinparis put it in her last paragraph. I'm definitely at risk of using online connections as a substitute for human connection.

Sorry for the long post...

[Sherry]

@ Robin -- whoa -- I could have written your post. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Except I'm doing all right at the moment. And I have very good support from my Mom. But I hope you keep commenting. Our kids are the same age, our spouse/job situations are similar, and the breastfeeding thing sounds the same, except I know I don't have much milk. Good to hear from you!

I wanted to say to Welty recently that it's got to be normal for marriage to take a beating during this parenting gig. Mine sure has. But we're working on it.

Hugs to all who feel isolated. In some ways, I feel less so. People talk to me a lot more now that I am lugging around a cute baby. But having friends and coworkers without kids is the challenging thing to me. We can't go hop on a bicycle for a Sunday ride, for instance. Why do they keep asking us????

[DC Ranger]

@Heather - Yes! My son's doing that too! Since DH is away so much on travel, DS wakes up in the morning asking for Daddy and spends all evening once he's home from daycare asking about him. Meanwhile, DS still does not call me anything - haven't heard a single "mama" though DS is 19 months old. Talk about a confidence buster, and yes, PPD-instigator.

[caramama]

I love what Chaosgirl and rudyinparis said!

@robin - You are in such a difficult place! That must be really hard. Have you talked to your husband about how you feel? Maybe you can both work together to come up with a way for you to feel more connected to him and your baby. Maybe something like special time or activity for just you and the baby, like you do baths before bed or something? And then some special time for the two of you? And it is tough when the baby starts nursing less. I try not to take it personally, but I do feel a loss. Good luck!

@AmyinMotown - I love the idea of a non-judgy "assholeism" button or t-shirt! I think just wearing a Moxie t-shirt or button would do the trick!

@Moxie, are you still thinking about expanding your razzle site???

@Slim - I feel the same way about wanting certain people to start blogs!! Including you, you know! (And I'll add hedra to your list.) Blogger is free. I'm just saying.

@jules - Maybe you haven't found the right group of women? I don't really feel lonely, but I'v felt left out, even when it's not anyone's fault.

DC area people - I still think we should all meet up. :)

[Robin]

@ Sherry - any chance you live in Chicago? Want to hang out? :)

I like what @ Maureen's got going. Something consistent for the weekends. I'm making that my goal for the next few weeks. Now that winter is easing up I feel a little more adventuresome and can see starting something on Saturdays. I think having that to look forward to could make a big difference for me.

[Heather]

@DCRanger- I hear you!! My DD is 18 mos. and it was a LONG time before she said mama. 'Dada' was her first word, even though I was doing 99% of the caretaking. That is hard stuff, isn't it? Like you said, I think because our husbands are away so much, the little ones tend to think they are rock stars or something, you know? I'm normally a very confident person but this parenting thing has really messed with my head. Hang in there!

[Melissa]

@ Robin and Sherry - I am so feeling your pain! We have 10-month-old twins and my husband stays at home with them, while I am out of the house for 11.5 hours per day Mon-Fri. I cannot verbalize how I feel without sounding like a whiner, but I just don't fit with ANYBODY right now. Thank you both very much for sharing your situations - just knowing you are out there helps!

[SarcastiCarrie]

Chicago suburbs here too. And yes, I have friends, even friends with kids, but an hour to 1.5 hour drive to meet up with someone whose kid is on a different nap schedule than mine is not happening too often.

There is an awesome SAHM on my block who keeps organizing things and inviting us. I keep going but I never reciprocate. I feel like a user and a loser, but without her, I'd be nuts. She's having an egg hunt on Saturday. Am so jealous of her. Must figure out how to repay her. I never want to do play dates on the weekends because as a WOHM, I need to grocery shop and buy socks and cat food. Weeknights are a blur or dinner, bath, bed. What can I do to reciprocate?

[Lisa]

extrovert mom here, typing one-handed while nursing.

pnut's mama, i fear this will sound like i'm stalking you, but - aren't you in sf? i think our kids are around the same age. a friend and i started a small playgroup for the express purpose of inviting only non-stepford moms. parents in it are mellow and kind, and the kids are great. email me if you'd like - lisa at ampedit dot com.

[taylor]

Hi - great post & comments as usual. My daughter is 6 months old today and the loneliness & "routine" have started to make me a bit batty. I am also a bit introverted and haven't had much success in chatting up the other moms in the neighbourhood- I keep getting shot down (agree with the junior high vibe mentioned above!!)- maybe I am letting off a desperation vibe?? I do not have any friends with kids and having a kid has really shown me who my true friends are- lots of them are quite judgemental about the parenting choices I have made (i.e. staying home more and not dragging LV out to fancy restaurants every weekend, meanwhile being told that I need to be more social - grr) So I ventured out to find a playgroup and went to a local drop in group. I have gone a few times and I really do not like going but am forcing myself to. I have yet to connect with any moms - i need one of those "non-judgy assholeism" buttons. The group has been pretty cliquey so far and my daughter so far has cried the whole time, every time that we have gone. So i feel like the woman with the wild unbehaved child while all the other put together moms kinda look sideways at me. I don't want to give up but i may try to find a new group? It just seems like none of the people i have met have babies who cry or are fussy or are freaky with strangers or who need the stability of a routine to get through the day...that is why i heart this site so much. People are honest and funny and have crazy, normal babies like mine!! And I don't feel like I have to justify every decision i make when I read the posts/comments!!

So thanks for making me feel like i am part of a community of moms!!

[Chaosgirl]

What an amazing outpouring of support. I love this blog.

@Sherry & @Robin - I'm there with the breastfeeding woes. My son weaned himself at 4 1/2 months. After two nasty day-long breastfeeding strikes, a visit to a lactation consultant, and lots of tears, I realized he was just done. We were *so* careful with bottles etc. (one per night with breastmilk) but he decided he like the flow of the bottle best. I tried to keep up my milk supply for him but pumping alone would not keep it up(even though I've been using a top-of-the-line electric pump), so he's now on formula.

To add to the guilt - it's soy formula (me and DH are both lactose intolerant) so I worry about the feminizing effects of phytoestrogens. We're going to try him on cow's milk formula in the next few days and see how he does.

So my confession? I'm stopping pumping and letting my milk dry up. After pumping a sorry 2 ounces per go for weeks now (and having to dump most of that milk bc I was taking decongestants to deal with a nasty cold), torturing my nipples, and dealing with the guilt of not doing everything humanly possible to keep breastfeeding, I'm done. Done like dinner. And to add to the insult of having my breasts rejected, my son will no longer take a bottle of breastmilk only (I have a goodly stash of frozen milk from the plentiful days) -- I have to mix in some formula for him. Yeesh. He's started solids now and is very happy and healthy. And that's what matters, right?

I try not to take this transition personally and see the bright side (don't have to go through weaning) but I *really* wanted to bf until at least 9 mos. I guess the golden rule of parenting, if not life in general, is that not everything goes the way you planned, no matter how hard you try.

[geobrarian]

As my daughter approaches 2, one thing I've noticed, and this might be along the lines of introvert (which I am!) vs. extrovert, is that people who required less personal time pre-kids deal with this a little better. My husband and I share childcare pretty equally--we both work 4 days, stay home with the girl one day and then do family stuff on the weekends. For me, the isolation is more related to missing the things I used to do, like have an afternoon to myself to do crafty things or sit in a cafe, or to do one of my favorite things--be alone in an empty house with a cup of tea and the cat.

As a result, I have a babysitter come for a few hours on my day home (feel a little guilty about that) especially because my girl is not a reliable napper (feel a little guilty about that too) so there's no guaranteed break in the day, whereas my husband needs less time alone and is glad to take the girl on extended adventures, even views the babysitter's arrival as an imposition on his day.

I find playgroup/mom group situations a little oppressive--this might be a function of life in San Francisco or just my personality (or maybe I can say that because now I have a couple mom-friends and feel like I can opt out of the groups.) I more often end up meeting nannies at the playground than other moms and get easier bummed out by the endless management of sand toys and lines for the swings. That said, I will likely be hurting for some group interactions as we plan to move abroad this summer where we know no one and I'll be a work-less mom for the first time since my maternity leave. Will surely eat words then.

...Oh, and life online is a nice antidote for introverts. Would have revolutionized my high school experience.

[paola]

@DCRanger, Heather

I think the syllable 'da' is one of the very first comprehensible sounds babies make. My son called everyone 'dada', including me, and ducks and dogs until around 18 months when he started to pronounce the words more correctly, but then he was pretty slow linguistically. My daughter started with 'da' but then found a new favourite word (actually a little tiny cluster of syllables which sound like 'what's that'!). Our Italian friends have said that 'da' is also their kid's first sound too, and it doesn't corrispond to any of the usual first words in Italian (daddy is 'papa', for instance.)So I wouldn't be offended that your kiddies have taken to 'dada' and not mama'. I'd be curious to know what Chinese or Vietnamese children's first sounds are.