Potty training when you can't control all the variables

It seems like the parenting zeitgeist is all about potty training lately. I got three questions on the same day about potty training last week, and have been thinking about it a lot myself lately because my son will be three in May and isn't out of diapers. Then yesterday I spent the afternoon with my BFF and her husband and son, who is almost three and still not completely potty-trained.

As long-time readers know, my older son pretty much potty-trained himself. He started wanting to try it at 16 months and was just really into all things potty. He'd be our bathroom attendant and hand us the toilet paper, stop to observe dogs pooping and peeing on the street, and watch the Bear in the Big Blue House "Potty Time" DVD on a continuous loop. He was in underpants by 27 months during the day, and by 32 months at night.

So I've got nothing, because I didn't really do much of anything other than go with his interests.

The younger one is more of a challenge, though. His personality is completely different, and he really isn't convinced there are any benefits to being in underpants. Plus I'm at work all day now, so I don't have the same ability to control the situation on a micro level. And it's harder to just leave him in underpants all day and not worry about accidents, since we have to leave the house more to work around his older brother's school schedule.

We've talked here about potty training several times in the past few years, and as usual you guys have been a font of information and experience. I'd like to open up another discussion about it, but pick your brains for ideas about training a non-only child who is at the whim of an older child's schedule, and also for training a child (who isn't so sure about it) when there's a childcare issue involved.

Help?

Comments

[sexkitten]

You don't happen to have any tips on raising teenagers do you?

[Dawn]

My daughter just wasn't interested, didn't seem to see the point or any benefit to potty training. To her, being on the potty took away play time, and that was no good. However, she really wanted to go to school. She wanted to go to bible school for a week in the summer and she really wanted to go to preschool in the fall. We told her that people who go to school have to use the potty and so we needed her to use the potty so she could go to school. We also tried various rewards, stickers, toys, etc. etc. etc.

She was accident free during that week at bible school (during the time at bible school, at least). She then immediately went back to diapers/pullups. I just wanted to cry. The remainder of the summer was a constant struggle, with me trying to get her to use the potty and her not wanting to. I was panicked as the beginning of preschool approached (I just really didn't want to be the mom whose kid got thrown out of preschool for not being potty trained). She has never had an accident at school. Not one. She has had the occasional accident at home, but that's to be expected and she's working on nighttime training still (at 4+), but not one accident at school.

It's like she decided that she wouldn't use the potty until she went to school and she turned a switch that day. The whole thing made me batty (not that I had far to go...).

Sorry for the long comment. I guess the upshot is that maybe your younger son is like my daughter in that he just doesn't want to do it right now and when he does, it'll happen quickly. My only advice would be to try not to make yourself nutty the way I did, but I think that's really hard, especially when other kids his age are doing it.

[paola]

I didn't know the first thing about potty training last summer and was desperate to train my then 2.5 year old. He was starting pre-school on his 3rd birthday (a month ago) and that meant no nappies, and he showed no sign of wanting to get out of them. I read about your first son and thought it sounded like a long process and couldn't even imagine I would be started with it by 3, let alone finished with the matter. My ped kept on reminding me that until his nappies were dry, there was no way he would be ready. In fact, the times I did try, when his nappies were still soaking wet everytime I changed him, he went like a puppy everywhere. I remember cleaning up after him 6 times in one morning.
At 2 years 10 months he started waking up with dry nappies, not every morning but most, and I gave it a try. I was amazed to see how easy it was to train him. The occasional accident, but completely do-able. Number twos were a sinch. He always told me when he had to go, wees, took a bit longer. In the beginning, I would sit him on the toilet every half hour or so, then built up to every hour, every 2. Now he can hold on up to 4 hours in the afternoon and has started telling me himself when he wants to go. Certainly going to pre-school has helped him be more vocal about his needs, after a couple of accidents. He takes naps without nappies, we go out for walks, in the car, shopping, ditto. He loves the idea of peeing in public places, so if you have an exhibitionist on your hands, he'll love to pee in the park, up on posts, in shopping centre toilets.

[Priscilla]

My little bug is 8 months old so I am no way ready for this discussion.

Moxie, get your older son involved in potty training the little one. My SIL had her guys watch Ghostbusters. The older one (bossy by nature) would suggest to the younger one to "cross streams" if (at mom's prompting) he didn't want to go potty.

[Ewokmama]

I have not potty trained my son yet but I have heard that cloth diapers (particularly prefolds or fitteds that don't wick away the moisture) make it easier since they feel it more when they urinate.

[pnuts mama]

all i know is that pnut is sort of interested in potty training and so i bought her a seat to fit on the big potty- she "pretends" to use it (clothes on or bare booty) all the time but so far hasn't done anything *in* the potty...the other day she freaked herself out when she took a huge poo while playing- i don't thnk she realized it was happening til it was too late. so i don't know if she really *is* ready yet, physically at least? i made sure she knew it WAS NOT A BIG DEAL to have an accident (don't even think i called it that) and we remain in diapers.

we aren't rushing it. ordered a few potty books (for her and me) and will proceed slowly. would be great if she were trained by the time the beansprout comes, if not, we'll manage.

sorry that seems to have been of absolutely no help to you whatsoever, moxie. i think i'm in your boat needing the collective wisodm of the group on this one!!

[flea]

I love the idea of Cross the Streams!!

I have some general thoughts about potty training with a child care situation. We worried a great deal about making sure the caregiver was on the same plan as us, but ultimately, it didn't seem to matter. Casper was in pull-ups at daycare and pretty much trained there long before she was the same at home, and now she never has accidents at school, not even I-was-too-busy-playing-to-notice accidents, though she certainly has them at least monthly at home (at 4.5). Just as with naps and food, kids seem to easily process that the scene is one way at day care and another way with mom/dad, and adjust accordingly.

I recommend the book The Princess and the Potty. Not for the child (though some children may love it), but for the parent. Because as the wise man tells the King and Queen, "The Princess will use the potty when the princess wants to use the potty." And one day, she does. I had to keep rereading it during our long slow slog to dryness.

[foodmomiac]

We had to potty train fast so that Max could start at our preferred preschool. I just decided to be a ninja about it.
We did this plan: http://babyzone.com/community/Posts.asp?brd=646&tpc=9128449&pg=1

We started on a Saturday morning, and he didn't leave the house for a week except for quick walks to pick up his sister from school with our au pair. I also had to miss a couple days of work to accommodate. Luckily, I had the au pair, but since it was just one walk of hardcore training, I think it would be worth it to pay for some extra babysitting.

[AmyinMotown]

Hey Moxie, we emailed about this awhile ago because it apeared we were going through the same thing. You know what worked the best? SHE TURNED THREE. Seriously, right around her birthday, BIG leap in being able to hold it, tell us when she needed to go, willingness to stop what she's doing to go, etc. She's still in pullups at night but I don't care.

here, in a nutshell, is what worked: Getting her on the potty every hour or so at first. Rewards: We started with stickers whenever she went on the potty and she got a new toy of her choice when she gotto like 30 stickers, and some lovely person on here (I don't remember who but you have my eternal gratitude) suggested a prize box with little wrapped dollar-store presents and WOW did that go over big (we did it at first for every dry morning or afternoon and then went to every dry day). But what worked better than anything was her being three.

[Kira]

My son is only a year, so I don't have much to say....but I do have a cute story about my SIL kids.

There are 3 of them under 5. The 3 year old sounds the same as Moxie's youngest. He refused to potty train. His thought was that it was just so much easier for mom to change is diaper then it was to go to the potty. He wouldn't even give it a chance to try on big boy underwear. They didn't know what to do.

One evening, the two older boys decided that they wanted to run around naked. Mom said that this was not appropriate with guests in the house - even though we were all family and none of us cared - so they compromised at wearing only their underwear. The 3 year old felt very out of place and protested loudly. His mom seeing an opportunity there, said that that the big boys were allowed to go only in their underwear, so he was more then welcome to be a big boy too and put on a pair. Well, that's all it took, he wanted to be like the big boys. The rest of the night he went around in big boy underwear and even (after all of us asking every five minutes!) went pee in the potty!!! I believe he was potty trained during the day within a week!

Obviously, that will not work with everyone and this was a pretty unique situation, but I thought it was pretty cute!

[AmyinMotown]

OH, also, a friend suggested putting underwear under pullups when we were out and about, so we had the security of pullups but she'd feel when she was wet. That helped a lot too to just get us out of the house.

[A]

My older child (son 2 years older than his sister) was instrumental in training my daughter. I would ask him to go check on her and he would actually sit by her on the floor and me by the door while she went and tell her it was okay (she was a bit nervous about BMs as the sensations were strange to her). So get your older child involved in the process. Also, talk to the older one that he/she is doing a big job because mom/dad did the same for him.

[A]

Oh and my daughter was trained by the time she was 2 and night trained by the time she was 2-1/2...without accidents. I also think her day care played a role too as they encouraged children to sit on the pooty at designated times even if they didn't have to go just to get them comfortable.

[Shandra]

My daycare has told me that they will train my son when they think he is ready, and that he isn't yet (almost 30 mos) and when he is they will tell me what to do in words of one syllable. (I understand it involves M&Ms / outright bribery.)

This is one of the reasons I love to write out those tuition cheques. This is one experience I am not sentimental about failing to drive.

[Shelley]

My daughter didn't potty train until she was over 3 1/2 -- I wanted her to participate in the process, but that so totally wasn't happening -- turns out she was a little afraid she couldn't do it! So we had to create a really clear system of rewards. She got a few M&Ms every time she produced on the potty, and as long as she was willing to try fun things kept happening -- we'd go to the playground, etc. If she didn't try, she wasn't punished, but we stayed home. (We tried the sticker chart idea first, but that did not ring her chimes loudly enough).

We also brought out the big guns -- trips to an amusement park on the weekend if she continued to do well. For her, it really took all that to make her confront her fear and go for it, and we phased out the candy slowly. She was completely accident-free within a month. Three months later she announced she didn't want Pull-Up*s at night anymore, and has had MINIMAL nighttime accidents.

[Kate]

My son is like yours, in that he didn't seem to have any internal motivation to train. No interest in big boy underpants or any of the other accoutrements. Seemed to find peeing in his diaper and peeing in underwear to be six of one, half dozen of the other, although he did want to be changed immediately when he peed in his underwear (which he was, of course, so no skin off his back). I tried really hard to stay cool about it all and it seems I sort of succeeded since at one point, my mother asked me in an exasperated tone whether I couldn't act even a little bit disappointed when he peed in his pants :) Anyway, after he turned three (at the end of October) and had been in in pre-school for a few months and seemed well adjusted to it, we went for it. The pre-school was on board. They suggested that we go cold turkey on diapers at home for a weekend (we picked Thanksgiving weekend to give us a few extra days) and then bring him to school on Monday with lots of extra changes of clothes. We did that and while he has had lots of accidents at home, he's had only one or two at school. Initially, he peed as soon as he woke up before he went to school (achieved by allowing him to watch TV if he would sit on the potty while doing it) and as soon as he got home (nanny sat him on the potty while she made his lunch, unlike his parents, she can make him do anything without the aid of bribes). Then, his nanny would put him on the potty when he woke up from his nap. I would take over when I get home and could usually avoid accidents by letting him go naked for key stretches including right after dinner, etc. Things have gotten better and better on the potty front with more independent pottying at home over time, more willingness to pee in the various toilets we encounter while out and about, etc. Twice, he's even told me that he had to pee while we were out and about in time for us to make it to the potty -- I thought we'd never get there. With regard to both the childcare and the out and about in New York City issues, my advice from my experience would be to bite the bullet (once your sure your son is physically ready), accept that there will be a village potty training your son, and go for it. We still don't leave the house without two changes of clothes (including clean socks, gross) for my son, but that's just leftover from the early days -- he almost never has accidents when we're out and about anymore.

[rudyinparis]

We are approaching potty training with Younger... We have the potty in the bathroom and have been putting her on it before bathtime or when we see her making the signs that she's pooping. We also make sure that she sees us putting her poop into the toilet and flushing it.

My main take on the subject, the second time around, is I think I'm going to be able to be less uptight about it. I wasn't super-uptight with Eldest, it's more that I found the process to really be a drag and this time around I guess I'm more accepting of my fate. It's that "surrendered mothing" approach I've been trying. But my vague plan is to move her back into cloth (she grew out of her cloth diaper covers a few months back and we've been too lazy to replace them), and try at least once an hour to sit her on the potty. Our daycare (a home daycare) is great and on board, method-wise.

*****

I was out and about all day Friday and I kept thinking, "I wonder what's going on at Ask Moxie? Man, I hope I'm not missing out on some great conversation!" And indeed I was. Oh well--happy birthday, Moxie!

[liz]

For us, it took MM's favorite teacher leaving the country for 2 months. He knew that if he were potty-trained, he'd be moved out of her class into the next one up and he didn't want to leave her.

After she left and he knew it would be A. WHOLE. SUMMER. before she was back, he was in underwear in 2 days.

[Shelley]

PS I should add that she's in daycare three times a week, and I sent in a bag of M&Ms and asked the staff to stick with my reward program.

[Jo ANn]

This solution won't work for everyone, but I waited until our family vacation to get Younger potty-trained, just before she turned 3. And I did it by leaving the kids with my MIL for a week and letting her do it. Which she did by offering Younger a sucker every hour and continually taking her to the potty, all while also watching her other 4 grandkids. Camp Grandma rocks!

[Beth]

I have three daughters, and the older two were pottied trained by my mom and sis. So, with the youngest (26 mo), I was HOPING I could succeed! We knew she was getting ready, but it was Christmas time, and didn't want to have to deal with potty training and all that goes along with getting ready for the holidays. We told her, "no more diapers after Christmas". It wasn't the day after, but a few days, and we kept talking about it. We did pull-ups just to introduce the idea, for a few days. She quickly switched to training pants, and this past week, she was dry, day and night, for 4 straight days! Hooray!

I think going with the training pants really helps b/c it helps them feel when they are wet! Pull-ups feel too much like a diaper.

[Jan]

With the Munchkin, we started with naked time around the house and a potty she could sit on by herself. She is all about Doing.It.Herself, so the fact that she could handle it on her own was key. (And when I say handle it on her own, I mean it -- by the time she was 21 months she would go sit on the potty, pee in it, wipe, take the removable seat off, pour the pee and tp into the toilet, climb up onto the sink to rinse out the bucket and put the potty back together. I had a newborn at the time, what can I say?) Once she was reliable for a couple of naked hours, we had her wear just underpants for that same time, then progressed to pants at home, then pants on short trips out. For awhile she had to try out every potty everyplace we went but she was done with peeing in diapers (except night/nap) before 2.

Poop was another whole story. After a couple of initial successes, she began insisting on a diaper for poops. If I didn't give it to her, she just waited until I put one on for nap/night and did it then. Which screwed up our very hard-won sleeping routine and schedule. Eventually I took some advice from someone here and wrapped up a bunch of little gifties and put them in a basket in the bathroom and told her she could open one each time she pooped in the potty. Progress was extremely fast after that.

We're just about to tackle this again with our younger one. He's in a commercial daycare three days a week, so we'll probably use their method, for consistency. We'll just start him in the underpants and ask once/twice/a billion time an hour whether his pants are wet or dry, and whether he needs to use the potty. If he's wet, he is responsible for changing himself (with help as needed, I'm sure). This way he learns to be responsible for the process. At no point is there bribery or any sort of discipline -- he just experiences the natural consequences, and he figures out that it's a heckuva lot easier to pee on the potty than to have to change his clothes every time he needs to pee. They claim to have great success (a few days to a week). Pretty much every 3-year-old in the place is trained; the next classroom level requires it.

[midlife mommy]

We have an only child who attends daycare. she will be 3-1/2 on the 25th of this month. Our attitude really has been "whatever." We bought potties for her a year or so ago (one for each bathroom), and I took her to the store to choose underwear with great fanfare. We bought a copy of DVDs about potty training. She liked Skittles, and I had a box of 2500 stickers, so I told her that if she tried to poop, she would get one Skittle. If she was successful, she would get three Skittles and one sheet of stickers. She told us that she was NOT going to poop in the potty, that I should give the stickers away to some neighborhood kids, and she didn't care if she ever had Skittles again. So, we let it go. At her three year exam, her doctor told us that what was happening was perfectly normal.

At daycare, it became cool to wear underwear, so she started asking for it. Then, she started regularly peeing on the potty. She pooped at home several months ago, and we made a big deal out of it.

Now, she's pretty much going regularly at daycare and at home. We let her start the day with a pullup with underwear over it, but she takes the pullup off fairly soon, both at home and at school.

I guess I'm a big fan of "whatever." It wasn't worth fighting about, and she decided to do it when she was ready. I think the peer pressure of daycare (which is set up like a school) really helped a lot.

[TheLuckyGal]

The thing that surprised me about potty training was that it was not an all-or-nothing / binary thing ... It was incremental. She was trained for peeing at about 29 months ... then ... for pooping at 3 ... then ... at night at about 3.5. Between 2.5 and 3 she would wear undies all day until she would announce "gotta poop, needa dipah." We'd put a diaper on and she'd go for it - standing next to the tub, holding on to the edge in a little squat. I think that was the issue - she preferred standing. I finally bribed with a pony ride (it was July 3rd - so I knew I could deliver on the pony ride the next day) and she consented to sit, sans diaper. The overnight thing was totally developmental, I think. She woke up wet until she woke up dry then never needed a diaper at night again and has never had an accident.

[Elizabeth]

This is a FWIW comment as my baby is only 13 months. However, I have been taking some moves from the diaper free play book (I'm not a zealot) and for several months, bug has done a poopy in his potty every morning and only has wet diapers for the rest of the day. He will also go pee pee in the potty if I give him an opportunity to when he has anything at all in his bladder. But, my point is that I'm not at all consistent about it throughout the day -- I just made it part of his morning schedule.

So basically FWIW the take away I've learned from the diaper free people that I applied to my own thinking about the potty is to "learn the timing" and "give an opportunity." (and also, "they're never to young" to be given said opportunities as long as you are gentle and have NO expectations about what will happen, but that doesn't apply to Moxie's situation).

In other words, pick a more or less stable time where you can control all the variables and when you know he usually has to go potty and give him a long relaxed opportunity (by long I mean 5 - 10 minutes). That's basically what I've done with my bug, and it's more or less working. I suspect with an older child you have the opportunity to add in some child logic as well: as in Beth's "no diapers after Christmas", but there I"m treading in unknown waters, so I won't say anything else.

[&BabyMakes75]

My son is just at the same age as yours, Moxie, will be 3 in May. Over MLK weekend,(since I was off of work on the Monday), we did Underwear Boot Camp.
Supplies included the terrific idea you posted about a year or so ago about the Ger*br brand training underpants: basically they look just like a man's briefs and have a few extra layers of cotton. Also made sure to have a put-on-the-top of regular toilet seat one for kids and stepstools in both bathrooms so he could sit there by himself. He has never used a separate potty.

Day 1 = Loud kitchen timer every 15 minutes and kept repeating and reinforcing that wherever we are and whatever we're doing, we stop and go to the toilet. Tons and tons of praise and high-fives and happy, happy smiles. (No other bribes.) Diaper put on for nap but taken off again later. (Of course he only made a BM at nap in the diaper. It is what it is, right.) Most of the day spent in just underwear,no bottoms or socks. (I turned the heat up.) Afternoon we tried 20 minute intervals and that worked. Diaper on for bed.

Day 2 = Similar to day 1 except longer timer times. Again, lots of verbal praise, hugs, high-fives, calling friends and grandmas with the exciting news, etc. He had a few accidents and he helped me clean them up. Huge reinforcement when actually does something on the toilet.

Day 3 = Gotta say that at this point my husband and I were exhausted and felt as if we were prisoners in our own home and pottied-out. But we persevered! He had several accidents, but we took it in stride and continued with lots of praise etc.

Day 4 = Brought to daycare with 10 changes of clothes as per their request for the first week. He only used two of them, yippee! They "forgot" (not sure if intentional) to put him in diaper for nap but he stayed dry.

Just a plug that bribery isn't needed for all children. I may just be exceptionally lucky, though... we really heap on the praise!

Since then, he has had a few accidents at school and only one at home. He clearly showed his pride at waiting to flush "his snake" down the toilet this morning until after I'd finished showering so he could show me :-)

He still wears a diaper at night and, although he wakes up completely dry, I think I will combine taking away the diaper at night with being in the big-boy bed. Might seem like too much of a combination but I'm just not yet ready to give up on nighttime sleep for me, which I hear can happen with the transition to toddler bed!

PS: I should say that we'd had two "false starts" a few months prior, with wearing underwear for a day or a few hours but this time it was quite clear he was ready.

[Christiana]

I have no experience training my own kids (my first is due in 21 days!), but I clearly remember what it took for me - plastic pants. I hated them because they were so uncomfortable. My mom took away diapers (well before pull-ups and it was probably because I was outgrowing them) and put me in underware, but until I was trained enough to go accident free more often than not, I had to wear "plastic pants" (like what you'd put over a cloth diaper to keep the leaks to a minimum). Don't know the availability of them now - I think I might have seen them at Babies R Us near the cloth diapers.

I remember being horrified when my best friend's kid was 3.5 and she hadn't even started potty training him, though she was planning to send him to 4-yr-old preschool where he would HAVE to be potty trained. Thankfully, once she started (she had tried to leave him without anything a couple of times to see how that worked, but he would get himself a pull-up out of the drawer - the kid hated to be naked) pushing it a little, it happened quickly.

[maureen]

Hi.. my twin boys are 2 3/4 year old, quickly approaching 3. We've been really laid back with the PT thing - more because I think we (my husband and I) aren't ready for it more than the fact that the boys aren't ready for it.

We have nudie time every evening after dinner for about 15 minutes or so before bath. Both boys will now regularly pee during this time (and one will typically poo, other only if he absolutely has too and even then you can tell he's uncomfortable with the whole thing but won't go on the floor so he has no choice as won't put diapers back on during this time). They will both also pee one last time after bath before we put them into PJs.

My issue is that neither will say anything about having to go pee if their diapers are on but will regularly go on the potty if they are nude. How does one get them to the "next phase" of wanting to go when their diaper is on? The training diapers where they feel an accident? I'm nervous to push them along to strongly where they push back.

Do I just have a couple days of all-day nudie time at home until they get used to the fact that they can pee/poo all day and don't need their diaper?

We've gone with the no bribes, no toys, treats, etc. approach as both boys are thriving right now on the extra praise. We typically call my mom or someone special if they poo so that they can tell that person to make it feel even more special.

To make this post even longer, I think the hardest thing for me so far is how much I've had to stop and slow down and adjust our schedule to accommodate the PT. When one boy wants to go poo, we all sit in the bathroom with him (including his twin) and read books. We typically go through about 5-10 books at the minimum! Meanwhile, the bath water is getting cold, bedtime is getting pushed out, etc.

[V]

I think the hardest thing for me is that it is such a looooooong process. My oldest was the type who could care less if her diaper/underpants were wet and no amount of praise/pleading/bribery/making her help clean it up could make her care. It just took time, and lots of it.

With my son, I planned to take the "whatever" approach. So, of course, he was *very* aware of when he needed his diaper changed, would tell us, would wake up dry, and enjoyed sitting on the potty. A weeklong visit to Grandma's after Thanksgiving at nearly 2.5 years old, and the boy was good to go in cloth training pants, minimal accidents, happy happy happy. So easy!

Right. This lasted through Christmas, including 2 10-hour car trips. Once back home after the holidays, though, he dug his heels in and refused to potty. And, even more, refused to tell us when he peed or pooped in his diaper and needed changed. It's like he lost all awareness of it and truly didn't care. I don't understand why this happened.

Fearing a repeat of what we went through with Kid #1, we've backed way the heck off since early January, and just yesterday he peed on the potty again a couple of times.

Such a long process, and completely inexplicable to me. I honestly think I jinxed myself by telling a couple of people he was potty trained. I swear, the next day, he stopped. Argh!

[Charisse]

Moxie, 13 months ago, early January 2007, we were right where you are now--a 2.9-yo, some success going (especially at daycare!) but no real progress staying dry, and major frustration. I was taking her to daycare on public transit at the time, so I had horrible visions of accidents in crowded cars. And we knew Mouse would no more put up with being directed to the potty every x minutes than fly to the moon. And she was in the beginnings of the lovely phase where if we reminded her of anything she'd scream at us. Well... :) she was fully daytime trained before MLK day--don't know if you've tried any of this, but here's what we did (definite overlap with other folks here!):

-we got really really fancy stickers, way better than the ones she usually got to play with, and let her actually stick one on the potty itself (like those tackle decals on football helments) every time she used it...and brought them along with us and let her stick them on public potties too (bad us).
-we had gotten her nice panties long ago and held them out as a longterm reward--one day, we just up and asked her if she'd like to wear them like a big girl instead of a diaper today. She agreed and never willingly put on a daytime diaper again.
-so, obviously there were some accidents. For the first 3 or 4 days, 2-3 accidents per day. She had a bunch of extra clothes at school, and we packed 2 sets in our bag, each in a ziploc bag that could then be turned into dirty clothes storage.
-ran into a problem where she was so into the process of changing panties that she'd squeeze out a few drops to get fresh ones. This made us realize that she was physically pretty darn capable, and we just instituted a rule that she could get clean panties any old time she wanted them, without them being wet. That was it for pee.
-she had, as we discovered, been hating to poop for a long time, and her "every 2-3 days" pattern that she'd had since about 18 mos was probably all withholding. We had about 2 weeks of pooping in pants. Enter the "bowl of presents" concept, which I heartily endorse!!! For us, it was key to not make a big issue of it, and let her ask what it was for, etc. About 3 days after the bowl appeared, she had her first potty poop and first present, and never pooped her pants again.
-there remained the issue of public bathrooms--not only finding them but the fact that she didn't like the crowds, noise, or smells. For several months, we'd do this thing where I'd sit (clothed) on the back of the seat and she'd sit in front of me over the hole while I wrapped my arms around her. That and a minor bribe worked until she could deal.

These days (3.9 now) she has maybe one accident a month--never at school--and it's usually a combination of tired + slightly constipated + has defined a project that she MUST FINISH.

[Charisse]

(Oh, that's 1 pee accident a month, btw--I've just observed that she has a harder time processing the sensations when she's a bit backed up or hasn't wanted to poop at school.)

[Charisse]

OK, hopefully nobody wants to shoot me for 3 in a row! I just fetched lunch and realized a posted a huge post that's missing the information you're really interested in, i.e. how did we keep up the "bowl of presents" thing with her in case...and what if you're out and about and there's no public bathroom?

So...it might be different with a nanny, but it Mouse's group daycare it wasn't appropriate for her to get little rewards during the school day when the other kids didn't have them. We worked out that if she pooped in the potty at school I would bring her "poopoo present" when I picked her up--I just made sure I stuck one in my bag each morning. That worked just fine--she'd run up and tell me if she had and open her present.

On the out and about, we'd try to get her to go before leaving the house, or before leaving school for the trip home, with mixed success...but here's the thing. I know SF's not NY, but still I have NEVER gotten a refusal, in any establishment from a liquor store to a snooty restaurant, when I've barged in with a sheepish smile and asked if there's by any chance a bathroom my little daughter could use. People are amazingly sympathetic.

Hope that helps, sorry for the multiple posts, and good luck!!

[Shelley]

I respect the POV of posters here who are trying to avoid the bribing aspect -- we had initially wanted to go that way, but it just wasn't working for us. And, after thinking about it for awhile, positive reinforcement is why we do a lot of the things we do -- you go to work, you get a paycheck, etc. etc.

Again, for us what worked was the combination of bribes and negative reinforcement - she got M&Ms when she produced on the potty, and if she cooperated (which we defined as obviously trying) we did fun things. If she didn't cooperate we didn't go anywhere, and we were very clear about this with her. Once during this we went to a playground, she ran up to me, smirked and crapped her diaper -- I picked her up and we went home while she wailed, but boy did she get the message.

I forgot to add that we started this when my mother was in town and she was out of daycare for a few days -- by the time my mom left she was almost there, and we carried on with the M&Ms until there weren't any left in the bowl.

[Jill]

I had three states of dress for my son.
(1)At home: butt nekid from the waist down (or in loose underpants if his playing with himself was too distracting!)
(2)At school or otherwise out of the house: "travel diapers" which consisted of all the diapers I had left but with his name on them in bright green Sharpie
(3)in bed: "sleep pants" which were Pull Ups, merely because they were interestingly new to him and because I don't go for wet beds.

When the home part started working, the rest just followed. But I really did strip him the minute we'd walk in the door from the car. He peed on the floor ONCE and pooped o it ONCE. For a while he'd wait until he got in the car and then poop, but he got over it after a while. He was 2y9m and the process took about a month.

[Lisa]

For the PP whose child "had it, then lost it":

We went through this too (actually are still in it), and luckily I'd heard from a friend that it's a common thing - happened with her kid too.

T. got interested in the whole bathroom thing around 15 months, so - why not? - we bought a potty and gave it to him - didn't even mention using it, but he liked to sit on it when I used the toilet, be read to on it, etc. A few months later, i started asking if he wanted to sit on the potty when he was naked/changing anyway - on waking, before and after bath, etc. - and he'd sometimes say yes. Eventually, he peed in the potty by sheer chance (looking down in surprise and delight: "More?"). Then around 21 months he was going every morning and some afternoons, with the occasional poop too. Even asking to use it. I figured I had it made, but wasn't ready to try diaper-free yet.

At 22 months or so, one day he stopped. Didn't want to use the thing at all. I figured it was a control thing - "do it mySELF!" - and so just said OK, though did keep offering every morning. Lately (24 months this week) he'll want to go sometimes, others not so much. I try to be as neutral as possible when offering, but show my happiness/support after he does go (he's always happy and proud about it).

Anyway, I do go on... but the point is that it helped a lot to know my friend's (equally stubborn) kid did the same thing, then one day at about 2 1/2 just decided it was time, and that was it. She was potty-trained.

Of course, I don't have a daycare-imposed deadline or anything like that, and T's still pretty young - but I'm taking heart in knowing that he's got the physical and mental stuff down. When he's emotionally ready it'll happen.

[Caroline]

Maureen, yes, more naked time at home. That was the key for us. Whenever we were home, C was naked from the waist down (easier with a girl, we could put her in a dress and even do this with company), after a while using the potty just becomes habit. Diapers for outings and sleep, then eventually you get brave enough to ditch those.

But she was Not ready until after her 3rd birthday, either. But once she was, the whole process was pretty slow and gradual, yet totally painless.

Oh, and there was bribery involved. Along the way gummy bears, Charisse's famous poop presents, and extra TV shows have been put to use, we managed to wean off of all of them pretty easily. Actually, she'll sometimes still ask for candy after pooping, but frankly I don't mind.

Every kid is so ridiculously different, though. C's a superstar potty master in some ways, like never a car accident, no matter how long the the trip, then running to the bathroom when we get home, or completely night training herself when we couldn't have cared less, but then she'll poop in her undies out of the blue and all smugness evaporates.

[z]

~lisa, thanks for your comment. my panda is 16+ months old and hes very interested in when the toilet flushes and like moxie's son in handing us toilet paper. Reading your comment i realize maybe i should get him a potty to sit on while we are in the bathroom and try your method to see if he too eventually catches on to the potty training thing without too much stress.

question for those of you with multi-level homes do you have separate potties for each bathroom?

[Jen H.]

I won't regale you all with our potty training saga, but some other things that helped my son along:

The IKEA ballroom flat-out refuses non-trained kids (no diaper or pullup, must be potty trained and in underwear).

We let him get a glimpse of more tantalizing kids' shows ("big boy shows") on the slightly older channels, and as long as he'd go in the potty, he could watch one or two of these a day, rather than just Thomas/Dora/Blue's Clues stuff.

Naked time whenever possible.

Now that he's trained, it's such a relief. Wow, we went through some stressful stuff with it. Still now, he will only poop every three or more days. So my advice would be to watch for stress/withholding and back off if that's happening. Then pile on the fruit and fibre and water or juice and flax seed oil. We're still doing this. OK, this has nothing to do with the original question, so I'll sign off.

[pnuts mama]

can i ask the group how they were able to help their kid know when they had to go?

pnut is remarkably verbal for 2.5 and normal for being able to express herself (and normally letting us know why she feels the way she does about something) but we ask her frequently if she feels like she has to go pee or poop. and she always says no.

or she'll say "i have to go potty" but *never* does. sooo...still too soon?

i'm all for the bribery and poo presents. i want to know what *I* get as a gift once we're done with this process!!

[Julie]

pnuts mama... you crack me up. I have this great image of pnut being so surprised when the poo came out into the toilet. I laughed out loud.

The following is a mish-mash of thoughts b/c I'm tired:

Alex has been interested since about 18 months. A few weeks ago, when doing his nightly naked playing/lap running after bath, he announced he had to pee, went into the bathroom and did it. I was shocked and thought it was a fluke. Except he did it two more times that week, so I decided to go for it. I was bummed.....I think I've said before I'd happily send him off to kindergarten in diapers if I thought I could get away with it. I just don't want to deal.

The pee for us was easy. A couple accidents and he pretty much got it. But we struggle with the poo. He still does it in his pants. He TELLS us he's pooping, but by then it's too late. The first weekend we told him we'd buy him a Thomas the train if he pooped on the potty. He did it no problem, got his train, and hasn't done it again since. We talk about how cool it is to poop in the potty, how it makes a GREAT Plop sound, and then we can look at it for as long as we want (he wants to look at them in his diaper and I won't let him...I swear it's a guy thing) and I have also told him we could take pictures with a disposable camera of his poops in the potty. He seems really into this idea, so we need to buy one and see what happens. I'll keep you posted.

Some days I'm lazy and just put him in a diaper all day long (like Sundays when I don't even want to shower myself). It's more than I can bear to have both of my days off saying constantly "Do you have to make a pee pee???" I know I need to be more consistent. When offered a choice, he always chooses underwear. I'm of the belief that if you can get them *almost* there, or most of the way there, they do the rest once they start school....and more people fudge about being fully potty trained than schools care to admit.

We set the timer for about 45-60 minutes, and when the potty timer goes off, we go. If he doesn't make a pee pee, I set the timer again for about 15 minutes until he makes one, then it's back to every hour or so. Anything more than an hour and it becomes a battle. And really, no matter how long, it becomes a battle.

I have no advice for you Moxie other than what my cousin does (4 kids and counting God bless her)....give it a go, tell him what the plan is, and at the first accident throw him back in diapers again and tell him he's not ready and you'll try again in a few weeks. Wash, rinse, repeat until it sticks. He's old enough to know he's supposed to be peeing on the potty, so perhaps he's just being stubborn about it b/c he senses that you want it so badly.

[Charisse]

haha pnuts mama, you should get a massage and a box of chocolates for sure!!

my guess is the signs of needing to go are pretty individual, but the ones we identified in Mouse were grabbing on, sitting on her heels, and a certain kind of squirming. we'd then do what it took to get her there...she was not super amenable to suggestion at that age, so sometimes I'd say "it's mommy's (or daddy's) turn to go potty!!" and then she'd race to get ahead of us. once she did go and get her sticker I assume it reinforced the association.

[Julie]

Oh one other thing about being out and about....we bought a little potty seat that goes over the regular seat (like you use at home) and a nice tasteful totebag. In the bag goes the seat, two changes of clothes in ziplock baggies, diapers, wipes, and disinfectant wipes. That's sort of our "kit" and it works great. We've peed lots of times at St*rbucks, T*rget, and other public places, wiped the seat and the kid down and gone about our business.

[Tracy]

I know with the bear, it was all about her being ready. I thought at 2 1/2 she should be ready. So we bought the potty, did the naked, drink a lot, sit on the potty every 1/2 hour routine that I had read about. Problem was, bear hadn't read that book !

So after 2 days of my whole life revolving around the potty, I said Forget This.

Back into diapers. No mention of the potty.

Four mos later my neighbor gave us the DVD "Once Upon a Potty" Bear watched it about a hundred times. Then announced to me she wanted to go potty like Prudence. That was it. Potty trained ! Now, maybe that's a magic DVD or maybe she was just ready. Who knows. We kept her in pull ups for naps for a month or so. And at night for a couple of months.

I was worried about a long car trip a couple of months after PT. Hint--Hotels are located near the highway, have clean bathrooms near the front door and nobody ever stops you.

The first time we used a public Auto Flush toilet, it flushed unexpectedly and she almost had a fit. Now I take stickers and place over the sensor until we are done.

Z-- yes, we had potties in each bathroom.

Now she loves her big girl panties so much, she needs a "clean" pair everytime she goes potty. Santa brought her a 10 pack and she had to try on every pair right then. Well, that's off topic, but I'm just amazed how totally goofy kids can be.

[Carla Hinkle]

My older daughter was never really interested. *I* was interested in being free of diapers. At 25 months, we did "3 Day Potty Training" (an e-brochure someone had sent me). It did require a few days of being home all day long ... really 3-4 was enough, so you could do it over a long weekend.

The basic method is just going straight to underwear, lots of trips to the bathroom, lots of accidents. Probably 10-15 the first day -- at least -- including a few poop accidents. But we never made a big deal out of it, just "that's OK, let's go sit on the potty." Only 4-5 accidnets the 2nd day. By the 3rd we could take quick trips out. Within a week we were basically done. (Naps we did a few months later, night time a few months after that, so all done by 2.5.)

It is a little painful in the short term, but soooo worth it in the long term.

[Caroline]

Z, in the beginning we brought a little potty into whatever room we were playing in. In my opinion, when they're just barely figuring it out, any distance, any clothing, can be too much of an obstacle. I figured a naked bottomed kid with a potty in sight has a better chance of making it. Then, as their bodies start making the connection, the obstacles can be added back in.

[Shandra]

Okay, this conversation is apparently sending strange vibes into the universe because when I picked my son up yesterday his teacher came out with him and said: "Noah went pee on the potty today."

!!!

Thanks! :-)

[Joy]

This is really funny because I just had my 15 month old in the bath yesterday and noticed her squatting and straining, so I sat her on the potty and held her there and she made a #2 into it!!

As a daycare provider who has seen many, many children go through this process, I
just want to say that they're all different. There is no magic age, or magic method. If the child isn't ready, too much emphasis (the ninja approach) can be really frustrating for them and counterproductive for you. Some of them just really want to go potty and train themselves. Sometimes just letting them run around the house au natural clues them in. Sometimes when their showing no signs of readiness, constant gentle reminders over a long period (even several months to a year) is what it takes.
My advice is:
Have patience.
Make it fun. Get some fabric paint and let the child paint their new underpants. Everywhere you go, make a game of finding the public restrooms and using them. Let them see you going. Keep books and toys by the potty. Get some fun wrapping paper and wrap up the toilet like a present. Take a potty chair outside and let them use it al fresco. Be as wacky and crazy fun as you can.
Lower your expectations ( or don't have any at all), and keep plenty of extra towels, carpet cleaner, M&M's, and Martinis on hand (which will also facilitate the wackiness.)

And as I seem to remember reading on this blog at one point, remember that they will eventually do it. You will not be sending them off to college with a case of Pampers. Have faith!! Good luck!!

[Jill]

z: Yes, I had potty seats that fit on top of the toilet for each bathroom in the house. They put it on, used it, took it off. I'm partial to the nice squishy ones for kids, but the most important potty seat quality is that it doesn't slip. One fall into the toilet water and you'll have a big setback.

P'nuts mama: If your child is naked (at least from the waist down) they will very quickly figure out what's going on! I think it is the quickest way for them to learn to understand what their body is telling them. They feel a familiar feeling and then there is pee or poop! On the floor! Horrors! Most kids don't like this to happen and very quickly start going to the toilet. I strongly suggest keeping them off carpets for a bit, but the method worked very fast for mine. One poop on the floor for each son and that was it.

[pnuts mama]

julie- i wish it was in the toilet! it was on the carpet in the living room! that's why she was so freaked out! and why i made sure she knew it was not a big deal. i myself was in the bathroom when it happened and my mommy radar went off when i heard her tone of voice/reaction to what had happened.

jill- i like the idea of leaving her bare-booty and figuring out that the feeling indicated what just happened.

i'm still wondering if it's still too early for her.we bought the training underwear and are in no big rush, maybe when it's a bit warmer and she's closer to three. i'm ok with waiting til she's ready. thanks!

[G's momma]

As a former day worker (and then grade school teacher), I have potty trained my fair share of other people's children. I found the following things were the most important:
1. Readiness of the child (and parent)

2. Talking frequently about going potty (read books, watch videos, let them see you go). Early conversations about wet and dry are very helpful. Children who have the words or sign language for wet and dry tend to be more successful.

3. Charting success. I used to chart if the child told me s/he had to go, if the child went in the potty, and if the child washed his or her hands afterwards. The kids were always very proud when they earned a three star potty (I used star stickers on the chart) BTW, if you aren't already, PLEASE make hand washing a part of the potty training - you wouldn't believe how many children do not know to wash their hands after using the bathroom. Also if you do chart it hand washing is almost an automatic sticker because they can wash hands after every attempt to use the potty.

4. Peer pressure. In the classroom if you are the only kid not using the potty, you quickly get on board.

I have a few books to recommend:

Have Your Seen My Potty by Mij Kelly

Potty by Mylo Freeman

Sara's Potty or Max's Potty (pick the one appropriate for the gender of your child) by DK Publishing

Click through Moxie to get them on Amazon.