The 2 1/2-3 year sleep regression

Can we just talk about this sleep regression?

I talk a lot here about the 4-month sleep regression (when you feel bewildered and bleak), the 8-9-month sleep regression (when you feel defeated and hopeless), and the 18-month sleep regression (when you feel insulted and irate). But I haven't talked much about the 3-year sleep regression. We're in the middle of it here (although he won't be 3 until May), so i thought maybe some of you would like to complain along with me.

The other sleep regressions seem to be characterized by frequent wakings throughout the night, but this 3-year one seems to be all about not going to sleep at bedtime. When he first goes into his bed at 8, and is still awake at 9:45, it starts to piss me off. There's only so much water a kid can drink, the monster-scarer is in full effect, the temperature is fine, and no you cannot come out and read with me. And, what's more, your brother needs to stay asleep so he won't be tired for school tomorrow.

Honestly, at this point I don't even care if the little one actually goes to sleep, I just want him to be quiet so he won't wake up his brother. (The progressive lowering of standards also seems to be characteristic of the 3-year sleep regression.)

What I've finally come to is that I can provide him the opportunity to sleep, but cannot make him do it. We have a temporary peace with his staying in his bed quietly (so he doesn't wake his brother) and my not caring if he's asleep or not. I definitely don't think it's something he's doing on purpose. I think it's the same thing that happens at the other sleep regressions--the kids are working on something mentally or developmentally, and their bodies and minds just simply can't sleep right then.

This too shall pass.

Anyone else want to complain about the 3-year sleep regression? (And, moms of older kids, is there one coming at 6 years?)

Comments

[paola]

I noticed around 2.5 years old my child ( he has just turned three)had trouble with sleep, but I put it down to a number of factors:

1. it was the middle of summer, so excruciatingly hot
2. we all slept with windows open and the sun and heat crept in earlier than usual
3. was getting to the point that he needed less sleep in general

He is back to sleeping well again, although complains whenever I put him to bed, whether it be at his usual time, later, whatever. He does fall asleep immediately thought, so obviously needs it.

I am still amazed that he sleeps so much at this age. He goes 12 hours at night and has a 3 hour nap at midday ( he sleeps even longer than his year old sister!). He has just started kindy and that definitely tires him out. Can anyone tell me when kids usually drop their naps?

[Jo Ann]

Wish I had something sunny and rosy to say, but we've been going through sleep issues with our 3-1/2yo for over a year. Mostly something akin to night terrors, but also many times not wanting to go to sleep. This is much worse on days when she has a nap (which is only 2x a week in daycare.) Most days we can get her in bed at approximately the right time, and usually she stays there, but it is still maddening. I could go into more detail, but it depresses me. I do think you're on the money with your current approach of he stays quiet and you don't care (much) if he's not actually asleep.

As for my 6yo daughter, she's been complaining of "headaches" and "stomachaches" and "sore throats" at bedtime (and only at bedtime) for at least 6 months. And sneaking around reading magazines next to her nightlight. (At 4 years old I caught her one night locked in the bathroom reading Highlights.) She sleeps through most of her sister's late-night ruckus, thank goodness, but the flip side of this is that she also sleeps through most attempts to wake her up to go potty.

Nighttime sucks.

[Today Wendy]

I think my daughter has hit this early. She's 14 months old and has been resisting going to bed at night for a while now (several months). Once asleep, she mostly sleeps through as long as she's snuggled up next to me.

I totally get what you mean about being able to provide an opportunity to sleep, but not being able to make them sleep. It is crazy frustrating though when you've got a really sleepy kid and they're just resisting sleep. I can't wait until she's old enough to tell me what's going on!

[hedra]

Yeah, six (maybe 5 1/2-6). And yeah, three (two of them, with different delaying tactics). Can I say I'm really tired right now? Having a cold doesn't help.

[Ally]

This was hell for us, because we could not come to a compromise. I tried because I didn't care if he was up all night, I just didn't want to be affected by it!

I had to get a little super nanny I'm afraid because he would not stay in bed, so we had a few nights of me picking him up and putting him back into bed, scream, run after me, pick up and return to bed, etc.

This was after a few months of working through fears of shadows, imaginary spiders, etc., so I was pretty certain it was sheer cussedness that was prompting the roaming about.

It stunk, but once we got past that power struggle, we are now back in a place where, if he needs me to come back for a few minutes once a week or so, I can do it and know it's not going to spiral into an out of control situation again, and it's nice to not have to second-guess myself. We still have nights where he refuses to settle down, but we work through them as they come.

I am going to go knock on wood right now because every time I think we've accomplished something regarding sleep, it comes back to bite me in the butt. :)

[Shandra]

Oh wow! My 2.5 yr old has been a bear about waking up lately. It hasn't been long enough yet to be a true regression but maybe it is. Thank you for bringing it up. :)

[kelly jeanie]

I thought it was just us! Thank you so much for this timely post. My son is going to be 3 in March and lately he just does not want to go to bed. He wants another book (he has 6 in his bed), he wants water, he just wants to snuggle...and then when he's been quiet for an hour or two and I go up to check on him before I go to bed, he's still awake, "reading" a book. At least now we know it's a phase!

[Catherine]

My son is doing EX-ACT-LY the same thing as yours (he will be 3 in April). Up for 1-2 hours after bedtime, usually puttering around in his room. And I'm responding about how you are (no lights, no noise and fergod'ssake don't wake up your sister! but otherwise ... stay awake if you must).

Does this mean they should give up their naps? Mine still sleeps for 2 hours a day.

[rudyinparis]

Bedtime is a drag with Eldest. It's when my fuse is shortest (although I've worked hard, really hard, since last fall to get myself healthier so I can handle my temper better... Seriously, I've made major changes in my life (almost) all for the sole purpose of strengthening my ability to stay calm with her, as my anger was freaking us both out...I also have lately been trying to be what I laughingly call "a Surrendered Mom", meaning I throw up my hands and surrender my own will in the face of stupid power struggles with her...)

Um, yeah. Glad you didn't ask for advice, Moxie, as I don't have any. We have long since given up on the idea of her falling asleep promptly at bedtime, but we work so hard to enforce the "you don't have to sleep, but you must stay in bed" rule. We both go nearly crazy with frustration, though, as this rule we so consistently state and enforce (when she gets up, we state the rule and shoo her back to bed, or walk her back to bed with no fanfare)--I mean, it just doesn't bode well for her teenage years, frankly--DH and I look it each other with bafflement and say "She just doesn't do it, what more can we do?" I hope it's a phase, although it seems more like Just The Way She Is.

Moxie, you're just going through the ringer lately. Hope someone's taking care of the caregiver.

[pnuts mama]

holy crap! us too! and pnut won't be 3 til july...

lately we've been noticing that she goes down ok (relatively) but will stay awake for a looooong time in her crib, playing with her animals, reading her books, singing, whatever. MOSTLY she doesn't ask to get up (i guess since we say no) but it really sucks when we are ready to go to bed a few hours later (!!) and she is still up- then she chats with us as we are trying to go to sleep! then other nights she goes off to sleep normally. weird.

don't even get me started about her deciding to get up at some ungodly early hour after a late night. and then being a cranky hot mess all morning b/c of it. yippee.

i will tell you when she gives up her afternoon nap i will get myself committed. i may never be ready for that. never.

[Lisa V]

Most people aren't going to like this, but in my experience children have sleep issues until they become teenagers and then they want to sleep all the time.

It's not as bad as when they are young and it comes and goes, I couldn't give you specific ages, and I wouldn't call it regression. They get anxious about school or they do too much during the day and can't wind down until long after we would expect them to be asleep. It's happening on and off with my 10 year old and my 5 year old. The key is to make deals with them, like stay in your room, lights off, etc. I tell my kids that laying there with their eyes closed is actually beneficial and sometimes they will believe me.

Once in awhile I give them a Tums and tell them the calcium makes them sleepy. This is totally a placebo and it works for anxiety often. I don't do it often. I don't want to set them up for a lifetime of psychological dependance on sleep meds. But when it's close to midnight and they have to go to school the next day and they are desperate to go to sleep, I will do it.

Look at your kid's sleep times and see if you are using old standards for a kid that no longer needs that much sleep. Plus some kid's body clocks are different. I try to adjust for my night owls by having them get lunches,clothes, backpacks ready the night before so they can sleep a little later in the morning.

Oh and this too shall pass. WAAAAY too fast. I know people tell you that, and it seems cliched, but it's so true. I have a child looking at college. She is here only another two years, yet it seems like yesterday she was a preschooler or a baby. Don't lose your mind over the sleep stuff, it's over quick.

[SJ]

wow, I had no idea this was age-related.
my son is the same age as yours, Moxie, he will be three in May, and started sleeping in a bed in early December - we actually had to go back to the crib (now with a crib tent on it) to enforce the staying in bed. If he gets out of bed (and out of his room) more than a few times, we put him in the crib. And sometimes I think he honestly needs this because he is so tired but doesn't have the self-control to stay in his bed/room when there might be INTERESTING things going on in the living room. We had about two weeks of getting out of bed and being put back in for up to three hours before resorting to the crib tent, and it saved all three of us. Last week he went five nights a row in his bed, then several in the crib, and then last night he slept in his bed.
Other friends were able to use a gate to keep their kids in their room at least after bedtime, but it won't work for the layout of our apartment, and honestly he would probably figure out how to climb over in about a day.

Good luck - I hope he at least does stay quiet for you most nights!

[sue]

The whole year of two was about resisting sleep, for us. For the first half, she wouldn't go down for her nap (but clearly needed it). So I'd put her down and make her stay in her room (with potty breaks) for at least an hour. At 2.5, she started napping again, but then laying in bed talking to herself until almost 10-11 every night (and demanding potty breaks intermittently). We hit a sweet spot just after 3, when she outgrew her nap (one day I put her down and 10 miutes later she walked out of her room, cheerful as can be. I tried for a couple of weeks to keep the nap routine up, but it was clearly over). Now she goes to bed at 7 and wakes up at 7.

Of course, all my smugness bit me in the butt, because she suddenly became afraid of the dark, and monsters about 2 weeks ago, and now wakes up screaming several times a night.

Sigh. Parents of elementary schoolers - do we get a couple of years of good sleep before they become teenage night owls? Please say yes!

[Janet]

We also went through this with our 3.5 yr old about 6 months ago. SOOO annoying. At the same time, she was very sporadic taking afternoon naps so we thought perhaps she wasn't tired enough to go to sleep. We then decided to eliminate the nap all together (i.e. forcing her to stay awake!) so that she would be super tired by the time bedtime rolled around. It seemed to have worked. Maybe once a week she takes a nap but it doesn't affect her bedtime anymore. The other thing we do is after reading books (3 only), she can then pick a toy to play with in her bed by herself. It has to be something simple and not too elaborate -- she usually picks a leapfrog learning game which is perfect. She now just turns it off when she's done and/or we'll go in and say that it's time for bed. I'm sure we'll go through another phase when she's reading (I remember doing the same thing!) but I just reassure myself that's it's just a phase (isn't everything??)

[Erin]

I am so glad this post came today. We are dealing with the same problem with our son who is 2 and a half. We put him down after a full bedtime routine at 8:00 and sometimes he is awake until 9:30. Luckily for us he will stay in bed and play, sing, talk and "read" but he is awake nonetheless. The worst is the 6:00 am wake up after falling asleep late. I feel strongly that we are still dealing with that sleep begets sleep adage and he is waking up early because of falling asleep so late. This means days at daycare have also been trying with pushing, hitting and biting. His daytime naps are only an hour and a half long so I don't think they are the problem. I hope this truly is a sleep regression and we will be back on track in a while. I guess after reading the other comments our situation could be worse so I will hunker down and wait this one out.

[flea]

I guess my question is - is the child clearly tired but resisting sleep, or is the child not actually tired? If the former, you've got a sleep problem; if the latter, it's more of a household organizational problem. My daughter had mandated 2+ hour naps in daycare until she left it at almost 4. She slept for them, because the alternative was lying on a mat quietly in the dark (boring!). We didn't even try to start the bedtime routine until 9pm for the year she was three. She just was not tired. Pre-K started, no nap - she tumbled into bed at 8pm. If dropping the 2.5 year old's nap (or substituting 'quiet play time in your room') isn't an option, what you're doing now is the best solution, I think. Because no 5 year old is going to accept an earlier bedtime than his 2 year old brother, and clearly the 5 year old needs the sleep!

[hedra]

8-10 years seemed pretty sane. A bit of 'sneaking reading in' kind of stuff, but not too bad. We haven't got past that age, so far. Problem-solving has helped some, with making them aware of the reason they feel tired, and asking them BEFORE bedtime to come up with a solution for it. I think 'get to bed on time' has been on our daily goals list for at least two years. Because the slightest thing will set it off-kilter and then we're up later than we can deal with (any of us).

That said, we had one great night this week, where it only took a half-hour to get the kids all ready and in bed. And while the elder two stayed up chatting together for a half-hour after that, they settled down promptly when reminded. M fell asleep right after that, and R... well, she was up talking to herself juuuust enough to keep me awake for about another hour, off and on. But she was being 'quiet' (just not 'silent'). But that was pretty good, all in all. I do find the sundown clocks helped a lot, but I'm thinking about trying the blue-light ones, that re-set your body clock to make it easier to fall asleep. Even that takes about an hour of exposure for it to work, though.

All this makes me wonder if maybe not-sleeping is the normal, and the sleeping-well phases are the anomalies... scary thought.

[Bobbi]

Yes yes yes....I have the kid who slept through like a champ from the beginning. And now, at 2 and a half, I think it's just one more thing for her to fight with me about. I'm with you on the "don't care if you sleep, but will you please STOP YELLING" thing...so frustrating...

I never noticed anything specific with my 6 year old, but he's the one who never slept through until he was almost 5...he did go through a stretch of wetting the bed quite often around that age...maybe related? With him, you never know...

On an unrelated note, I could use some assisstance on the parenting without yelling thing. I know you've talked about it before, but I feel like I've lost all my patience lately and am yelling more than I'm not. Any suggestions would be extremely helpful. My 8 year old daughter is seriously kicking my ass, and it's bleeding over onto how I parent the 3 younger ones...

[Katie]

Jo Ann- I just thought of something while I was reading your post- could you daughter be having acid reflux? I'm nine months pregnant, and after I eat supper and then sit/lie down before bed, I get really bad heartburn and to a kid that could feel like a stomachache or sore throat or something.

I am still desperately trying to get my two stepkids (daughter is 6, son is 8) to sleep alone. My stepdaughter finally has her own room and she likes it that way- her brother still wants to sleep with her, except she can't sleep with him in her bed because he kicks and steals the covers and it pisses her off because it's HER room and he has his OWN room. Sigh. It never ends.

[Julie]

We are still in a crib thankfully....and I am hoping we will stay there for at least another 6 months (Alex is 2y3m). He still uses a sleep sack, so that has inhibited any vertical exploration. I have had friends who have warned me that at about 2 1/2 they fool you into thinking that they are done with their naps because of all this bedtime difficulty, but to just power through it. I have lots of sympathy for you, but not much else in the way of ideas.

I remember when I was young we were always allowed to read in bed after bedtime for as long as we wanted. Being tired the next day was a consequence of reading too late. But my mom, a teacher, always allowed reading when we were not allowed to do anything else.

If it makes you feel any better (along the lines of misery loves company) my sister's 2 1/2 year old has learned how to make himself puke when he doesn't get what he wants. Yesterday he did it in the car. Could be soooo much worse, huh?

[meg]

We went through a similar situation with our 3 year old. What seemed to help is to change her nap time to a rest time of reading books or watching a video. She was tired at bedtime and went to sleep within minutes of putting her head down. I was a little nervous getting rid of her nap because she just turned 3, but it turns out she sleeps more now because she doesn't struggle at bedtime and will sleep until the morning...most nights.

[Rebecca]

My son is just two and he does the same thing - lies awake in his crib for 30 - 90 minutes. He jumps up & down, talks to himself, rolls arounds, etc. We just let him be but it does worry me 'cause I know he isn't getting enough sleep. He is still an early riser (ugh!) whether he's asleep earlier or later. We have a very predictable, lengthy bedtime routine so he knows what to expect. I'm wondering if I should shorten his nap (1.5-2 hrs right now) and maybe that would help? He just clearly doesn't seem tired at his bedtime unless he's had a couple late nights and then he'll doze off early. We've definitely accepted the 'give him the opportunity and it's his decision to sleep or not' but it's hard when you know you're getting a cranky toddler the next day! He has always fallen on the lesser end of 'needed sleep' for his age range - oh, joy! I'm incredibly bitter towards my friends who have 12+ hr toddler sleepers! We are dreading the day he moves out of crib - at least now he's contained!

[hedra]

@Bobbi, the thing that has helped me the most on the yelling front is thinking of yelling as just a signpost that the kids are outgrowing my skills. Which means it's time to find resources to build new skills.

My best recommendation for 8 and up (and really, for younger, but it is FABULOUS for the mental skills of the 8+ crowd) is Parent Effectiveness Training. It's kind of a mind-warping read, because so much of what we assume is normal/right is kind of tossed out the window. But it's likewise affirming because what they say lines up more with what REALITY is like. P.E.T. is available on Amazon, etc. I read every blessed parenting book I can get my hands on - more tools, more things to try. This one is kind of like the master level, above How to Talk, and so many others. Highly detailed, loads of examples, a whole progression to getting through it. Read it cover to cover, straight through - this is not for dipping in. It was moving to that method (over time - it takes TIME and lots of returning to remind myself) that has made the most difference. The skills they help you learn work through adulthood (I use it at work as well - not that I was yelling at work, but identifying what the problem is, who it belongs to, and trying to work out the problem solution to win-win, etc.). It sounds simple, and is, except it is contrary to what we've been taught.

I stuck some comments at the end of the Check Yourselves post that cover this, really. Yelling is just the symptom. The real problem isn't the yelling. And the frustration that leads to yelling is also just a symptom. The fact that peoples needs are in conflict and are remaining in conflict is what is the real problem. Solve that, and the frustration and yelling just GOES AWAY. (Until the next problem shows up, but the more we do this, the easier it gets to spot the problem sooner, and dodge the frustration sooner, and maybe even skip the yelling entirely.)

Good luck!

[Sidney]

I am sooo glad to hear all this! I have been going thru what seems like a bad dream, every night for the last two months with my 2 year old (she just turned two). First she quit sleeping in her crib, we put her to bed in her sisters bed, then moved her to her crib and her sister from my bed to her bed, I got tired of that and after Christmas we took the crib down and brought the toddler bed out, hoping that all she really wanted was to sleep in a "big girl bed" I was so wrong! Now she won't go to bed at all, she concks out at 10:30, 11:00, 11:30.... My other issues which has pretty much been a nightmare since my second was born is that they share a room, no crying it out method, nothing. For a long time my eldest (5) would fall asleep with me reading to her while the little one (at that point was my sleep angel) would soothe herself to sleep. Now I read my 5 year old to sleep while my husband tries to settle the two year old down by reading books, from 9-11 we are both trying different tactics to get the 2 yr old to sleep, something different works every night. Last night she fell asleep next to me in my bed. My husband moves her to her bed, two hours later she waddles in to sleep with us, if we move her again (she must dream about karate because she sure kicks a lot) she will come into the bedroom again. Last night I was up at 12:00, 2:30, 4:30 and my alarm rang at 6:30 to get everyone up and off to work, school and grandma's. I felt like I was up with a 23lb 35" new born! She naps great, in her own bed for an hour (we cut her naptime already to see if that would help her sleep at night). We have tried to stick with routine, she gets a bath right before bedtime, same as since she was born! I just don't know what to do. This seems like a phase becoming permamnet. I don't mind the sleeping with me, I hate the refusing to go to bed at night, then the cranky over tired behavior kicks in and the parents are more tired then the two year old. If the two year old wakes the 5 year old, the 5 year old is crying from being awakened and is distraught and confused.

[hedra]

Oh, and P.E.T. lines up pretty nicely with my Safe/Respectful/Kind rules - so it isn't going to freak out anyone who leans 'AP' - though if you're way into power/control/obedience, it might be harder to grasp. I just figure I'm after results, and I get results with it. Remarkably fast, really. And ones that don't leave all the burden on me.

[hedra]

Oh, and I'm reminded that the HIGHEST cosleeping rate is between 2 and 5 years of age, worldwide. That's the age that even if they didn't sleep with you sometimes (or a lot) before, they sleep with you NOW.

B was actually better coming up towards 6 than he is now, but coming up towards 6 we also expected him to be struggling with it still, and now we expect him to handle it better, and funny, he can't yet. Sigh.

Anyone else remember their parents checking in on them late at night and pretending to have fallen asleep reading - because they weren't going to yell at me and wake me up if I'd finally fallen asleep, but if I'd still been 'awake' ...

[hedra]

Can I start any more comments with Oh, and...? Sheesh.

[Bobbi]

Thanks Hedra - I was hoping you'd offer suggestions. I will definitely check it out!

[HollyRhea]

Mine is three in May, too, and doing the same stuff. I had no idea this was a "thing". Wow, now I'll stop screaming at her (so much).

And yes, we've coped by letting her into our FULL-size bed. Now there's four of us - me, hubby, baby, toddler. Soooo annoying.

[JB]

My daughter will be 3 in March, and we've been doing this for two months: repeated getting out of bed, not falling asleep for hours. Just this week it's started to improve (maybe.) My husband wanted to cut out her naps and see if it helped. I resisted, and now that I know it's a phase, I may resist, or change nap to quiet time...

God, how I love this site.

[Aaron]

You guys are freaking me out :) N is 7 months old on Saturday and we are fighting to get her to sleep through the night right now. I'm not looking forward to fighting with her to get her to go to bed in a couple years.

[Charisse]

Oy, yes, hello! This started happening right around when Mouse was 2 1/2 and we were like "up until 11? what the...? I will say it's much better at almost 4 --we got past this, past 5 months of post-3 night-training/bedwetting/shrieking wakeups and now we just have little stretches of nightmares or worries. (Like this weekend she got 10 minutes of inadvertent exposure to violent professional wrestling on someone else's TV. Guess what time she wants to re-ask all the questions about whether it's pretend and why people pretend to hurt each other and why other people want to watch--which, anybody got a good answer, btw?--and whether wrestlers can get in our house?) But even when we do, there's just a lot less yelling than a year ago. On everybody's part.

In Mouse's case she's never needed a ton of sleep and the 2 1/2 stuff was much improved by limiting--eliminating when possible and shortening otherwise--the naps she took at daycare and making sure she gets plenty of exercise. Plenty for her is a lot--if it's a rainy day, she's not going to be down before 10--and if there's even a 15-minute nap it will be 11. If she takes an hour nap (which we put the kybosh on a year or more ago for this reason) she's fully capable of 1am. Yeah. In our house naps are considered the work of the devil, and I constantly negotiate with preschool to outright prevent them. Lately they happen maybe once a week, and they wake her after 20 mins, so it's dealable.

But...no nap, a couple miles of walking and a couple hours of playground? Out like a light at 9. (Our schedule runs late in general--she's just like that.) I do think this is an age when the need for exercise increases a lot along with physical strength. But it's tough in the winter.

I've kind of accepted that there are some nights she can't quiet her body and mind by herself, and our rule is that if she's actually trying to go to sleep, she can have a parent with her to help--i.e. if she's lying still and quiet on her bed, she can have one of us pat her back. We'll also quickly and quietly answer any burning questions and then tell her to be still again (if we don't answer them, 1am again). If she's not really trying, no company and no lights and no books and no music, because all of those will keep her up. (We had a sitter try to read her to sleep last week--got home at 11:30 to "hi mommy, hi daddy"...sitter was so puzzled that she didn't bonk out.) So a zero-stimulation at bedtime approach also helped, but it's kind of hard to get Mouse to accept it without the parent in there. Which is OK if we've all eaten together, but if Mr. C is coming home late and we're planning a 9pm couple dinner and Mouse is still needing help at 11:30, I get pretty dang hungry and cranky. Luckily as I said, keeping the naps low and the exercise high means this doesn't happen that often now, and she's just a more reasonable creature at almost-4 than at almost-3. She knows she doesn't want to be tired for school, etc. Good luck Moxie, hang in there!!

[Caroline]

The minute our daughter turned three bedtime changed. She had been a 1.5 hour napper, 8 pm to bed, then suddenly she Was Not Sleepy until 9:45 or 10, consistently and suddenly. She'd just hang out in her bed, talking, singing, counting her toes, not remotely ready to sleep. Then getting her up for school was a nightmare.

We cut out the nap, and lo and behold at 7:00 she would put her head down and close her eyes and go to sleep. Then wake up bright eyed at 6:30, exactly when we need her to. Bliss.

Losing the nap sucked for me, but I eventually got over it.

She's happy and healthy, I checked with her ped, who said that the 11 - 12 hours is fine (she also said that she went through the exact same change with her son at the exact same time.)

She'll go through brief phases of sleep disturbances, usually calling for her dad (yay) in the middle of the night, and he'll go lie with her (why we went straight from crib to twin bed), but these always pass within a week or so.

Now, after several months, she's back to stalling at bedtime, but she has a baby sister coming any day, so all bets are off.

And Bobbi, have you read "Between Parent and Child?" Most valuable Moxie suggestion, ever. Genius, genius stuff. Thanks, Moxie!

[Caroline]

Just read Charisse's comment and I second the bit about how ANY nap messes things up. 5 minutes in the car, her body thinks it's all rested up, that'll throw off bedtime by an hour ans a half. What is that about?

[MotherLawyer]

I had no idea that's what was going on! DS will be three in about 5 weeks.

Every.single.night DH and I say, practically in unison, "you don't have to got to sleep but you have to lay here and be quiet". It only sorta works.

Glad to know I'm not alone.

[Charisse]

@Caroline, my theory is that at least some kids can't re-cycle into sleep unless they have been up for a minimum number of hours. That number gets larger as they get bigger and older, and the amount of sleep it takes to trigger "I've slept" gets smaller. I remember the same thing happening with the 2 to 1 nap transition--bonk in the car for 10 minutes in the morning and nope, no nap at all for the day. But that's why I'm so anti-nap at this point in Mouse's life--the delay of bedtime is in no way balanced by the refreshment of the nap, so it basically steals night sleep. As long as you can go with it, you can work with it, you know?

[deezydubya]

I think it's the talking thing - they kick into this superverbal stage and their brains can't shut off...For an hour (or more!) it's all hushed whispers and endless yakking.

My son, at 2.5, can't open the slightly sticky door of his bedroom with ease(yay!) and has translated this to all bedrooms, so he stays in his room even when he's done sleeping and just yaks to himself, his toys, his light, his sound machine...Then when I go get him in the morning he says, "Go away mommy! I sleeping in!" even though he's been blabbing to himself for 30 minutes!

[Caroline]

Thanks, Charisse, that makes sense, as weird as it is when it happens.

Luckily our daughter doesn't ever want to nap, we just used to run into trouble with the occasional late-afternoon car trip. Discovered that the i-phone is the best toy ever for the stay-awake-at-all-costs occasion. YouTube videos of puppies and kittens will prevent any nap.

[jodifur]

I'm so glad this is happening to someone else. No offense or anything. I really thought it was just me. And then my almost 3 year old gets up in the middle of the night as well.

[Monica]

Oh, YES. My daughter is a little over 2.5 and she's been resisting going down AND staying asleep. It's not even that she wants to nurse anymore...she just wants me to pick her up and then rock her back down. Sigh. I am TIRED, people.

I'll be back to read the comments wisdom. :)

[Julie]

A couple thoughts based on things my friends with older kids have done:

One friend had her husband put a lock on the outside of older daughter's door. When I heard this (before kids BTW) I was SHOCKED. That sounded like it was bordering on child abuse. But when the alternative is parent/younger sibling abuse in the form of sleep deprivation, it started to make sense. She could basically do whatever she wanted to in her room, could not get out of it, so she was safe. They often found her asleep pressed up against her dresser with an assortment of puzzles around her (and puzzle pieces stuck to her forehead) but hey. Whatever works. Of course this would only work if kids were not sharing a bedroom.

Another friend built a special "nest" in mom and dad's room for little one to climb into in the middle of the night. The nest was some pillows, soft blankets, next to their bed so if she wanted to sleep "with" them, it wasn't WITH them. Seemed to be special enough to be good enough, but not so great that her own bed didn't feel just a little bit better.

My other friend has told me that it was much easier for her to drop her second child's nap than it was her first. It has actually made her life easier not to have to try to find a place/time to fit that into her already busy day. So if you have a younger kid who is having this sleep problem at bedtime and you already have an older kid who is no longer napping, maybe it might be okay (not great, but okay) to drop the nap? Just some thoughts. A bedtime anytime after 8 PM sounds like parent abuse to me.

[Sheila]

Our triplets are 7 1/2 now, and it seems that every night somebody appears half an hour after lights out, wanting something. They invent mysterious pains or tummy upsets, or they just can't get to sleep, or they have a strange question... It used to be just one child who always took a long time to go to sleep, but now it could be any one of the three. I've given up trying to predict who will "bounce" back up again, but somebody always does. Sometimes I think they are anxious about school or other issues, sometimes I think they are seeking attention, sometimes they are just not sleepy yet.

We try to be matter of fact, answer the specific concern, and get them headed back to bed. Don't "reward" the wakeful one with too much attention or interesting activity (turn the TV off), or they will start showing up every night, just for fun!

The problem is that our kids don't sleep in past 8:00 no matter how late they were up, so it takes days to catch up from one late night. We try to be very consistent with quiet reading in bed and a regular bedtime, so they don't get too tired. Can't think of anything else to try...

[Ellen]

Totally right there- in fact in got so bad a few weeks ago that I almost wrote in with a HELP ME question. My daughter just turned two and is superverbal, ahead of the curve for the crazy brain-development sleep regressions. This is what we're dealing with- the same can't shut my brain down until 10:00 thing. I hate it. We went from a 7:00 bedtime to a 9ish bedtime almost overnight.

Our strategy has been to push bedtime back a bit, and bring back the rocking chair. She was a co-sleeper for most of 2 years and even now crawls in with me at 3-4AM, so leaving her to fend for herself in the room proved impossible (we never did CIO b/c she winds herself up into a frenzy). I find that rocking helps her shut the crazy brain synapses off sooner and helps her body chill. With luck she's down by 9PM (in time for Lost tonight), and then she sleeps until past 8 (blessed sleep for me, being pregnant). It's not always fun to rock for close to an hour, but it beats lying there next to her, answering questions, until 10. I too thought of cutting naps out but do think it's too early, as she naps well. I think this is another sleep regression to add to the list, Moxie! The crazy verbal 2-3yr regression.

My motto for 2 years old is UN-friggin-predictable and I had to admit to myself that bedtime was to be no exception.

[pnuts mama]

charisse, so funny about the late night with the baby sitter, no one can ever understand that pnut doesn't conk out in the car on a ride home after a late night out- ever! too much interesting stuff to look at/talk about! to be fair, we are more nocturnal, and she stays up later than most kids her age (to spend time with her daddy, we have evening commitments, etc.) and makes up for it in the morning and during nap.

rudyinparis, if you don't mind sharing some of your coping methods for a short fuse i'd love to hear them. of course my fuse is shortest when i'm tired (oh, what a cruel joke that is) and that's no fun, but i too have been working really hard on my patience level, my anger management and being more kind. some days are better than others. glad to know i'm not alone.

[jessica]

oh my god this post is PERFECT TIMING.

[jessica]

and I just want to add.....they don't sleep during the day either.

My daughter is now (finally) falling into an exhaused post-screaming sleep a full 2 hours after her normal bedtime.

She wakes up once or twice a night...AGAIN.

And she wakes up an hour ealier each morning...6:45.

And she *does calisthenics all day* with no nap at the sitter's. (The kids there have a nexercize video. AND SHE IS STILL NOT SLEEPY AT NIGHT.

Can someone please borrow my kid for a few months?????

[GG]

I have a 2.5 year old daughter- we have just switched back to the crib after some frustrating weeks of sleep. She is still crying out at night and I want to let her CIO but she is potty trained and often resorts to - I have to go potty. Which means, I have to go get her. She ends up in our bed for the rest of the night. I usually consult - Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child and decide if I can commit to it or not. Right now, I can't, I'm too tired!

As for temper- I am really struggling with this too and don't like who I become- usually after lack of sleep and working full time. But, I am using 1 2 3 Magic- I'm not sure she gets it yet- but, it is supposed to help take the anger out of discipline. So, I'm willing to give it a shot.

For the 3+ ages- my friend swears by giving her daughter 3 flowers/stars/whatever each night- if she leaves her room she has to give up a flower/star/etc. If at the end of the week she has 12 or more left- she gets to pick out something special. I will do this once I think mine will get it...not sure she is ready.

I feel so normal reading all the posts! Thanks.

[Julie]

GG...brilliant. Way better than my "lock them in their room" idea. Thanks!!!

[Alyssa]

I am new to this post and have found this topic very resourceful. But my 2.5 year old son goes to bed fairly easy. The problem we have is that he wakes about 4/5 times a night. Everyone seems to be dealing with a going to bed issue. Has anyone dealt with a waking issue. He calls for me and wants me to fix his blanket, get him a tissue, fix his lovy. This happens over and over again throughout the night. I don't think he would go for the "you can stay awake but just don't scream." Because when I go in and fix the blanket he goes right back to sleep but then wakes in another hour and we go through the process again. He shares a room with his twin brother. Both boys are still in cribs, with tents. I saw the suggestion to get a night light that has colors or shapes on the ceiling to help calm them and I am going to try that. I was planning to convert their cribs into beds this weekend but now I am having second thoughts since I think he will just spend the night getting out of the bed. We let him sleep on the floor in our room once this week when he was screaming. And he slept the rest of the night but I don't want to start that as a habbit. Anyone go though this and what did they do.

[regiemino]

Moxie, you didn't actually say whether your 3 y.o. is still napping, but for many other commenters, that is the case, and I think that is your answer. People have differing opinions on when kids should give up napping, but my two older ones gave it up before 3. My older one went to bed fine, but started getting up at 5 am. My second one started staying awake in bed for ages, like other commenters' kids. I first cut the nap back to 1 hour (they are really cranky and hard to wake up, but it's necessary). Later, when the pattern started again, We cut the nap to once every second day, then out completely. My son, now 3.5, can nap up to 20 minutes in the car without messing his nighttime sleep, as long as it's not in the late afternoon!
I had friends whose kids slept way more than mine, but I think if your child is not cranky/tired during the day, you need to cut back on nap time for the sake of nighttime sleep (I'd rather have that, personally.) My third child is 13 months, so I'm back to being home in the afternoon for naptime, which is nice, so much better than the two nap schedule, but it does limit what I can get done!