Q&A: Online interactive video games?

Kelly writes:

"My five year old son has become smitten with Toontown, the Disney "Second Life" interactive web site.  He was turned on to it by friends at school and those smart Disney folks will allow anyone to register to go into "Toontown" but you can only participate in certain levels of activity by, you guessed it, subscribing.  He is now begging to spend way more time than he is allowed on the web site.   He gets to play for a maximum of an hour a day on the computer at this point.  He can go to Toontown or the other sites we have deemed okay for him to visit.

Because he was so enthralled, I spend an evening on the site myself to really check it out and I'm so torn about whether this is something I want him to have access to or not (we are considering subscribing as a birthday gift or banning entirely).  Once on the site, you create a character with name and you manipulate that character's actions in a 3-D Toontown.  There's a Goofy Race Track, Donald has a boat you can ride to other places, and an area where you can go to "destroy" Clogs - guys in suits with funny business names (not really violent, just pie throwing and water squirting and they get mad and explode if you hit them correctly).   The games you get to play to collect "jelly beans" are fun and at that great place of not too hard, but not too easy.  That is harmless enough.

But you can also interact with the other characters.   Kudos to the Disney folk for limiting the allowable conversations to already scripted remarks from a pull down menu (you can't ask anyone for any personal information, you can't respond to anyone except in also prescripted form) .  You can ask them to "be your friend" and that both helps you with some of the tasks you can achieve and alerts you to when you are in the same neighborhood as one of your "friends".  For instance, you can ask some one to help you find a location within Toontown or if they want to be your friend (again, if you are a subscriber, you can ask them to help "teleport" you to other fun areas).  When you team up with other players it helps everyone score more "jelly beans" when they complete a task together.

When he is playing and another Toon character comes up to him to ask to be his friend (our computer is in a common area and his reading skills often require some help to decipher the instructions for games or read what someone has asked), I get rather freaked out.  Yes, that may look like a happy duck in green shorts named "Snackelberry Happyface", but I'm convinced it is really a thirty-something freakoid who really wants to.... interact secretly with children on a web site.  Ugh. 

So, my questions:

1. Like TV, are interactive websites/computer games poison for our kid's minds?  Or are they an okay way to divert a child so I can get the laundry folded, dishes put away, checkbook balanced (okay, I'm giddy here) while his baby sisters sleep?

2. Can I use these limited interactions as the spring board into conversations about good communication on the web vs.. bad communication or is that too subtle for a five/six year old and encouraging him to "make friends" on the web is just a bad, bad, bad idea."

Holy crap, there are interactive sites for kids that age?

And here I was already wondering if I was doing something horribly imprudent by letting my older son (the same age as Kelly's son) play the games on PBS online. He also has a time limit, but will play happily for that entire time without paying attention to anything else that's going on in the room.

I'm going to start with question 2, because I know the answer to that one: Yes, you definitely use Toontown as the beginning of the "keeping yourself safe on the internet" conversation that's going to go on for the next 20 years. I think it's a lot like talking to kids about sex. You don't want to hit a 3-year-old with every detail, but you also don't want to wait until your kid is 15 to tell them anything, because by then it's too late. So you start with the small bites, and then by the time your kid is let loose outside of the prescripted world (or at a party) they'll have enough knowledge to be able to discern reality from fiction when it counts.

It seems that starting with the idea of avatars might be a good way to introduce the idea that you don't really know who's typing at the keyboard to a younger kid. "You made your 'guy' look like Goofy, but are you really Goofy?" and other questions that help them start to understand playing a character could be a way to help them develop that awareness that not everything is literal.

If you're a family that watches TV, I'm guessing you've already had some conversations about commercials, and how they're trying to get you to buy things, and they're not always telling the truth, and you don't always need everything on the ads (and even if you do need it, you might find it better, or for less money, etc.). You're eventually going to get to that point about the internet, too (no, you cannot cite Wikipedia as a source in an academic research paper), and it's kind of the kissing cousin to internet safety.

Now, to question 1. I, personally, don't think it's good for kids to watch any TV or be on the internet at all. I think they'd all be better off running around outside and digging in the dirt all day. But that's not realistic for many of the kids in the world, and probably most of the kids of people reading this blog right now. My own kids watch TV, and my older one plays computer games. Do I ever think about unplugging completely? Of course. Do I think about it a lot? Not really. It's just too--I'm looking for the right word here--sensible to let them watch a half-hour show while I'm making breakfast and getting their stuff ready in the morning. (I'm still trying to wrap my head around the computer games, although logically they seem like they should be better than passively watching TV.)

I'm sure it's not the best thing possible for their brains, but I also think they get some positive things out of their limited media time. So I'm spending my energy moderating what they watch and play and trying to keep in mind that it's just a small slice of what happens in their lives on a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly basis.

I would LOVE to hear from some people with older kids about how you deal with media, especially the internet, as kids get older. I feel like I'm slowly finding a balance now while he's in Kindergarten, but suspect that it's only going to get more complicated as my kids get older. What do you talk about with your kids and when? How do you create rules to keep your kids safe, while still allowing them their privacy?

Comments

[anastasiav]

Wow, great topic.

To Kelly, I would stay this:
1) Please always remember that your child is far, far, far, FAR more likely to be harmed by someone they already know in the real world than by some stranger on-line. Far, far, FAR more likely. Only 10% of abusers are strangers to those they abuse (6% for children under age 6). About 30-40% are family friends or trusted adults. Typical child sex abusers - 50-60% - are fathers, stepfathers, uncles, grandfathers, and brothers. (The percentage of women who sexually abuse children is extremely low.)
source (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/03/INGN4C224F1.DTL)

So I won't say that being on-line won't put your child at risk, but understand that the odds are very strongly that the "friend" online is another child (probably being monitored by another parent who is just as freaked out as you are) and not an adult pretending to be a child.

2) Even if, despite the odds, the person interacting with your child is an adult - well, you've already outlined the safeguards that the site itself has put into place. You, yourself, have also already instituted the most important safeguard: having the computer in a common area where you monitor its use.

3) These sorts of games can teach great skills, like teamwork, sharing, and even sometimes the idea that if you do something nice for someone without expecting anything in return, good things may come your way later on. Not to mention the media-savvy lessions that Moxie describes above.

[Katie B.]

This is going to be a very interesting question for my household, when my kids (mostly still speculative, #1 is 19 weeks in utero) are old enough. My husband and I both play MMORPGs, that is, online roleplaying games such as World of Warcraft, and in fact met and courted while (separately) playing one. There are quite a number of people I count as real friends whom I may never meet in person - I think of them as being something like pen pals. My experience as an adult is that it's not difficult at all to judge character online; people tend to reveal their true characters quite readily. I've also found that it's not very difficult (and extremely rewarding) to find the company of other mature players who are good people with lives. They also eat your time like nothing else!

But my experience as an adult is only vaguely useful when applied to the question of what to tell kids. I plan to do a sort of Waldorf program, which means no TV or computers anyway for a good long time, but not everyone wants to do that (or can). I also know very well that kids don't generally have the character-judging capabilities of adults, so someone that sets off my alarm bells might seen perfectly all right to a six-year-old. I think anastsiav above outlines the pros and cons very clearly. I think I would add to her points the idea of the friends you make online being like pen pals, which I think could be very valuable, especially for a child that is isolated for some reason. I do think it's very important to emphasize that behind the avatars are real people, who think and choose and can be hurt by your actions, just like in real life. I say this because I have known more than a few thoughtless teenagers online who don't really get that, and cause a great deal of pain in their wake.

[Katie]

I think playing the game is a great learning experience for kids, although 5 years old might still be a little young.

First, the kid learns about how the internet works in a safe environment. Like Moxie said, it's a great way to teach how about anonymity and things like that.

Second, the kid learns to stay within bounds. Yes, the game is really fun, but he can only play for an hour. So, when he is older he is used setting boundaries so those kind of things don't become a serious problem.

Third, computer skills are never a bad thing to have. Sometimes this kind of experience early on will lead to curiosity about computers and how stuff works, leading to productive hobbies and maybe even valuable skills in adult life. Then again, maybe not, but there is always the chance.

It's all about moderation. If it's totally banned, you miss out on the positive and just put off the same problems until they're older. If it's unregulated it takes over their life and rots their little brains.

[pnuts mama]

just wondering if i'm the only one whose text is much smaller from the first quote mark til just before the last paragraph.

i agree with moxie that this could be a great way to begin a discussion about internet safety. and while pp's make an excellent point that you or your children are far more likely to be harmed by someone you know, i don't know, there is still something so creepy and wrong about the idea of anyone approaching me and especially my child anonymously that makes my stomach turn.

maybe it's the hormones or my willingness to jump into the pool of irrational fear for my children's safety- but the thought of anyone getting perverse pleasure from my kids existence, i don't know, i just totally get that that would freak any parent out. i'm interested to read the comments on this one. good luck!

[m]

(The text on my screen has the same issues as pnuts mama.)

This is very difficult. My son isn't even 2 yet, so I'm hoping it's not an issue I'll have to deal with for some time. We have a tv, but only use it to watch movies, and the one time I tried to put my son in front of video so I could get things done it didn't work at all, so we're going to stick with the no-tv thing for as long as possible.

The problem with the online stuff is he already sees me on my computer a lot, so it's natural that he's curious and wants to do what his mom does. It will be much more difficult to say no for him when it's something I do regularly.

My first impulse when reading Kelly's question was to hop on the side of banning it completely. (I may be irrational, but the idea of kids so young playing games like that freaks the crap out of me.) However, I don't know how possible that will be. If he already picked it from friends, he's still going to play the game with them, and it will turn into something illicit and therefore even more cool--not a trend you want to begin so young.

I like Moxie's suggestion about making this a jumping off point for discussions about safety and whatnot. Also, I think I would leave it as the status quo and not buy him a subscription. I'd continue to monitor as much as possible and always ask how it went after he played.

I'm really looking forward to hearing what moms of older kids have to say about this.

[Sara]

Wow! Interesting stuff. I have a little boy about to turn three who has been playing games on the disney and nick jr sites for about 6 months. None of these games have interactions with others so I certainly haven't come across that issue yet, but the Bunnytown Friends area does seem like the beginnings. He is limited to an hour (mostly while his little brother is sleeping, so we can have some quiet) and is not allowed to play anywhere near bedtime - he did once and his little mind was spinning so hard it took an hour to get him to wind down and then sleep. The Bunnytown site does seem like a big step up from the other games he has been playing - you earn carrots from the games which you can then spend in the "shop" on clothes for your bunny avatar or things for your bunny home. This seems like training for a consumer to me: those carrots are going to be dollars far to soon. His play at the moment is not tuned to the carrot rewards so I'm letting him continue, but I can see a point coming at which I'm going to have to remove Bunnytown from the bookmarks. It really is a brave new world out there.

[Slim]

"logically they seem like they should be better than passively watching TV"
I read a great line in the Zero to Three magazine once: "What is so interactive about pushing a button?"

That said, my kids watch TV, and my oldest (in elementary school) spends a little time on the computer. Not because I think there's any value to it -- he's not old enough to develop real computer skills yet, and the social stuff could surely be learned better through actual social interaction -- but because I don't spend every waking moment engaged in the best possible activities for social, intellectual, emotional, and moral growth, so it seems hypocritical to expect that from him.

We have not allowed him to sign in yet, and I don't know if we will. I'm not sure how much of our hesitation is due to a sense of actual danger and how much is due to a sense that once he does that, he's somehow entrenched (which is stupid way to feel, I know).

I have drunk deeply of The Plug-in Drug Kool-Aid, I guess.

[DadsDinner.com]

My eldest wanted a go with a computer the moment he saw one when he was one. He was playing educational games on PC at two and we moved onto Mario Kart on GameCube when he was three and a half. Mario Party taught him to count and do sums. Being able to play Paper Mario 2 was his incentive to learn to read. We've spent many hours playing and discussing games together.

Even normal games can be educational and help develop social skills (if you don't mind taking an interest and joining in occasionally). If online elements are a problem, try finding out whether that's what your children are actually interested in. If all they really want to do is race virtual cars and jump on platforms, then you should pick up a Wii or a second-hand GameCube and some Mario games. They'll be able to play and you won't have to worry.

[Michelle]

Great topic. Even though both of my kids are under 2 I have thought about this stuff for a while already - probably because the media (think "To Catch a Predator") has scared the beejeezus out of me about my kids ever being online.

I think Moxie, and many of the commenters, are correct in saying that computer time, like TV, probably isn't a great activity for kids, but it is simply not practical to ban them completely.

I think the Disney site is probably okay - although I wouldn't spring for a subscription. In addition to this being the perfect opportunity to start the Internet safety discussion I think this is also a great time to discuss the "but everybody else is doing it" discussion as well. Just because his friends at school have subscriptions to the site doesn't mean he has to...

I like this post because it has got me thinking about this issue in a different way - I have long worried about my kids being teens on MySpace (or whatever crazy social site they have in 12 years) but it helps to think of this as a problem I can start combatting in a few years...building up to their teenage years. Much like the sex ed stuff. Thanks Moxie!

[Sara]

I firmly believe a parent needs to do what is right for their family. Even if it means saying no to a particular website or TV show. It's a hard, because you don't want to seem strict. At the same time we do have a few more years of knowledge/experience than our children. I think as parents (mom's in particular) we should try and trust our judgement on what is appropriate for our kids.

[andrea from the fishbowl]

I think this is a great time to start talking about Internet safety. Although chances are very small that there is a 30-y.o. perv behind that over avatar, it is still important that the child knows "the rules."

There is a great (and free!) resource for parents and teachers on the issue, it's called Privacy Playground: The First Adventure of the Three CyberPigs.
(http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/games/privacy_playground/)

"In this game, designed for ages 8-10, the CyberPigs play on their favourite Web site and encounter marketing ploys, spam and a close encounter with a not-too-friendly wolf.

The purpose of the game is to teach kids how to spot online marketing strategies, protect their personal information and avoid online predators."

It covers the big issues re: the Internet. It's never too early for this kind of stuff.

[Shelley]

Wow. We're not there yet but I'm sure at some point we will get there -- so I'm reading with great interest.

We avoided TV as much as possible when my four-year-old was smaller, and the only kids' DVDs we own are in our family's second language. She watches a half-hour every other day, or something like that. Thus far we've been able to avoid computer games.

But clearly, I can only do so much limiting, and my days are numbered -- when her friends start telling her about stuff and she wants to explore, that's a whole new ballgame. So I imagine at some point she'll discover computer games. The interactivity element is a little frightening, although social networking sites (when they get older) even more so!

I don't think we'll ever buy a video game console, Game Cube or similar, though.

[Shandra]

Wow I have so much to say on this topic. I've been in online interactive environments since before the web, met my husband on an online RPG, and also have run online games where young teens have been at risk, including one case where a 14 yr old ran away to her online boyfriend's house - he was 28, and fortunately, while not smart, not really a pedophile - he'd been sucked in a bit by the online persona too.

And oh yes I have run online communities that included dating sites professionally. Of course all this makes me old and jaded too.

So, here's my verdict. On the topic of physical and what I'll call "high risk emotional safety" - being introduced to porn or something, I think Moxie is SO right about starting the conversation. But particularly the way this game is described I think it's pretty safe. Also, I agree entirely with comments above - it is SO MUCH easier for pedophile to prey on neighbours and local groups, and most of the danger comes from within one's circle of acquaintances anyway.

That's not to say we shouldn't teach our kids about it, because we should. But the risk factors are pretty low of actual harm at that age. As with a lot of these things, I think the danger probably starts to peak in the preteen/teen years. Developing literacy now is likely a good thing.

But I think there is a whole other layer of concern about kids being on the internet.

The 'net is, as we blog-commenters and bloggers all know, so EASY. It is way, way easier to pop online and get instant feedback from relative strangers than to foster real, local, in-person connections (at least for me). It's a huge allure of the web and I LIKE it, I'm not saying it's a great evil.

But I think it does become a balancing act.

For me, kids are still learning their social muscles and all the cues and things that we apply to learning about people and developing relationships (and I agree that one can learn to read these cues online) need to be practiced. And it's my personal belief that since 90% of information comes from body language, etc., that they need to be learned in person.

Especially at the ages where we pretty much know that kids' brains are hardwired for exploration of the concrete world. I think a 5, 6, 8 year old - up to pre-teen at least - needs to SEE their friend react to comments, to watch them cry, scowl, laugh, jump for joy, etc. They need to really be there.

Also, I worry that if we pay a lot for these environments - and our kids don't see us paying to go visit friends and family, etc. - it gives a message about our priorities.

And actually I worry much more about how I model relationships, but that's like, a whole psychoanalytic thing right? :)

So basically, my feeling is that with young kids a little internet is okay - supervised, etc. - but only in the context of otherwise good social stuff. I actually think the model where a kid is playing with his schoolmates/friends is probably the very best one - it's an additional thing to do with people you know already.

If it's becoming a substitute for getting together with friends, or a way to avoid having to deal with the err... occasional cesspool of elementary school social experimentation - then I think it is a problem.

I would also caution against marvelling at the design of commercial sites for kids in terms of safety, interesting things to do, etc. Please remember (and this from an outskirts of the industry insider) that the more drawn in your child gets and the more safe you perceive it is the more likely you are to keep paying. And that is the goal - well that you pay, and also that you see the ads, and also that you like the brands, and buy related merchandise.

(World of Warcraft is like, the ultimate in this regard for adults and is a billion dollar industry and specifically allowed for players to set up guilds, etc., in order to use social pressure on players to continue to pay to play. And yes it's fun; my husband plays with our teen nephew. Not slagging it, just stating the reality.)

[Emily]

Just a resource for parents of kids 0-5 (so not as old as the one in this initial post) - a great book: Into the Minds of Babes: How screen time affects children from birth to age 5. Excellent - easy read, makes sense, doesn't make you feel guity, is realistic.

[rudyinparis]

Gasp! Slim, you don't spend every waking moment engaged in the best possible activities for social, intellectual, emotional, and moral growth??! I am sullied, sullied I tell you, by mere association.

Ha!

I definitely agree with the consensus that this is a good entry into "sometimes people aren't who they seem". (BTW, so is watching the Disney version of Pinocchio and commenting on the character of Stromboli-- "Hey! He was acting like he was Pinocchio's friend! But he wasn't! He's being mean!"). Before having children I think I would have argued that all tv and all internet Is Bad. Now faced with reality, I think that stance is a little too black and white for my taste. I'm not sure I'd be doing my kids any favors shielding them so completely from the world. I think "moderation in all things" is one of my parenting mantras. And, lordy, if it allows you to make a healthy dinner for your kids and you feel happier by doing so, then so be it.

Also, I think Slim's point--that SHE also uses the computer, watches tv--I think this is a good one. We should model what behavior we expect. So we should use these media sources the way we want our kids too--for healthy entertainment and with a critical eye. (I think of my schoolteacher mom's advice to anyone who asked her how to get their kids to read: "YOU pick up a book and read and be sure they see you doing it.")

Good for you, Kelly, fo asking these questions!

[katydid6]

We are right in the middle of this as well. My 5-year-old daughter has been playing games on Nick Jr., Noggin and Disney for about 2 years now. She was given a Webkinz for Christmas, but thankfully she hasn't been into that yet. I say thankfully not because I think the interactive aspect is a bad thing, but mostly because between having an infant and with the holiday hubub I haven't been able to check out the site myself and see how it really works.

Our big thing for her is moderation in the amount of time spent playing and quality of the games/website. There are lots of good websites, but frankly there's a lot of crap already being pushed on the elementary crowd. So we try to look into the site on our own time to see how we feel about it. I prefer the ones that aren't trying to hawk something extra. Our favorites right now are a European site called Up To Ten and the Peep website from Discovery Kids.

Since she's not doing interactive stuff yet, I haven't thought of having the talk about the people you might meet, but I'm so glad this post is pushing me to think about it and to see how others are handling it. What's really surprised me about the whole kids and computer things is how much earlier safety and exposure to inappropriate material becomes an issue in their lives. For example, after watching us enter phrases into Yahoo to look things up, our daughter figured it out. She was on the computer one day and when I checked in on her, she had figured out how to pull up Yahoo and had typed "Peep" in, trying to see if there were any Peep games. Thank God the first thing that comes up is really Peep, and not some link to a peep show! So after that we put the websites she can access on the desktop and require her to ask permission if she wants to look for anything different.

[Liza]

I think this is a great topic, and one that will generate different answers for different families and kids. I spent ~8 years working in the kids-and-the-internet field, and am now the mom of a toddler. I also spent way too much of about 18 months of my life playing online RPGs.

First, a few awesome resources for parents who want to learn more about these kinds of issues in a non "unplug it now! computers scary!" way:

NetFamilyNews, http://www.netfamilynews.org/ - Author Anne Collier has been publishing this awesome resource on family technology issues for ~10 years. (First as a listserv/newsletter, and now as a blog.)

GetNetWise, http://getnetwise.org/ - the parental controls tools section is probably badly out of date, but the advice for parents and kids is still timely. Full disclosure, I was part of the team that originally launched this site.

ConnectSafely, http://www.connectsafely.org/ - more focused on social networking safety issues.

To the actual question -- I think games that limit kids to preset phrases strike a great balance between interactivity and safety.

Of course it's creepy to think about some adult thinking inappropriately about your child and interacting with them -- but with such limited interaction, is your child in any actual danger? Personally, I think the pedophiles are more likely to go to less restrictive sites where they can have more open-ended and potentially manipulative conversations with young people.

Also, I think all of the teachable moment comments, time limit recommendations, and keeping the computer in a public part of your house are SPOT ON.

[Prehistoric Mama]

Frankly, this is an unnerving topic for me. My DH and I lean much farther to the "no TV/computers for our kid" end of the spectrum than the "TV/computers" end.

Of course, we watch TV and work on our computers once our 2-year-old is in bed, so the day will certainly come when this discrepancy will hit the fan.

We occasionally watch a kid's movie with him (which he enjoys for approximately 30 minutes and then gets bored), but he doesn't watch any other TV for now.

Someday soon we'll have to make the decision to get rid of the TV altogether (alas! no "Office"?? no "Lost"?? EEK.), or dance the great big ugly compromise dance.

[Joylynn]

I felt like it was appropriate for me to comment since this affects my family. I have two daughters, ages 10 & 11. Our computer is located in one corner of our kitchen at a desk area. That way, my husband & I can see what the girls are doing when they are online. They are not allowed to IM or to go to any chat rooms, or myspace, facebook etc. (some of their friends are allowed, apparently but we've said no to that-way too scary) They do have email addresses but they mostly get emails from relatives and I look at them all as they come in.

They both go online to sites like Webkinz, Club Penguin, and Millsbury, but I told them I would not pay for any subscriptions. They are only allowed to "talk" to others on the sites with the pre-scripted phrases. I don't feel like it's a problem to let them have "friends" on these sites. The "friends" cannot get any personal or contact info. about my children on the sites and the sites usually have a parents area that answers questions about security.

The games they play help them to be better at navigating on the computer and we put a limit on online time, and only after all homework is complete.

I've talked to them about online predators at length. I think that if your family has rules in place for these kinds of things (online games, etc.) and stays on top of what they are doing, it can be fun & educational. They use the computer search engines for research for projects and papers as well.

Also, I have wanted to ask other parents of older children their opinions on cell phones for tweens. We have not allowed our children to have them and have said that we will re-visit the issue when they are in high school and need to be picked up after sports practices, dances, etc. This seems to be an unpopular opinion in our area and several of our kids' friends have cell phones and are constantly texting/calling each other. Maybe Moxie can have a topic on this.

Hope this helps!

[sue]

While my daughter is only 3, so we haven't had to deal with this issue yet, the very prospect just chills me. When I was in high school and posting on boards on Prodigy I became "friends" with a predator posing as a fellow teen. Fortunately, the person chickened out and faked his own death before doign anything really terrible, but the potential for great harm was very real. Especially since in those days, since none of us had scanners or digital cameras, we would give each other our street addresses and mail photos to each other. So this guy had my address, since I'd mailed him a photo. (Which is how the parents of the other teens involved found out that he was a faker, because we all had his address and someone investigated. not the brightest criminal in the bunch, eh) So, from personal experience, I'm VERY wary of giving my kids any sort of independence online.

[Allison]

I think the very first poster [anastasiav] SO hit the nail on the head. I definitely think we ALL need to use more caution on the internet, but the VAST majority of people who are assaulted are assaulted by someone they know.

I know Jamie Lee Curtis is out there saying that blahblah percent of kids are sexually solicited online each day, but they fail to tell you that they include teenagers soliciting other teenagers in those statistics. Its not just adults soliciting kids.

I know what kind of trouble I got into online, and SO much of those problems could have been eliminated by having our computer in a common room, rather than in the small room on our basement with a lock on the door!!

My biggest concern about online use would be coming across porn, and it seems like limiting the websites kids can visit will nearly solve that problem.

This is the 2000s! We can’t avoid screen time! It’s life!

[MrsHaley]

@Joylynn -- re: cell phones for tweens: One of the things you may have to take into consideration now AND when your kids are high school age are the strict rules many schools have about cell phone use. It may not be worth it to give your kid a cell phone when their school does not allow the phones to be turned on or even in the child's posession during the school day. The disciplinary conseqeunces are often not worth the perceived convenience or increased safety. Neither of those arguments hold much water with a ticked-off administrator, anyway.

@PrehistoricMama -- I'm with you on the TV / internet issues. When computer literacy or online socialization becomes essential to her daily functioning (because of the demands of her education or cultural necessity), then I will teach her how to be discriminating and circumspect about her consumption. Until then, we'll stick with books and real people.

[Florabora]

My two cents - ask at your local library if they offer Internet safety classes for parents/kids. Librarians have been facing the safety issues with online games/chat rooms for kids forever. Most libraries should have a class, and if not, ask your local librarian in the children's section - they might be able to answer your questions.

[PrehistoricMama]

@Joylynn...I hear you about the cell phones. Considering my DH and I don't even have one (are we the last ones??), I absolutely cringe when I see tweeners chatting on cell phones. Maybe it's my aversion to cell phones in general, but do they REALLY need to have a cell phone at 12 years old? If so, how about one of the ones that only dials home, your cell, or 911. I think those exist, right?

BTW, I'm typing this response on my typewriter, at which time my carrier pigeon will clutch it in his little foot and deliver it straight to Moxie's door.

[Julie]

"We've spent many hours playing and discussing games together." I think this is the most important point. While tv/video games are a huge help to busy moms (and dads) who just need to get dinner on the table (or take a shower) without an extra appendage, the most important thing is to talk with your kids about what you're watching/playing TOGETHER and take the step from passive to evaluative participant.

And of course, everything in moderation. We try to maintain the "business hours" rule, which means that if it's during business hours, everyone in the family must be "working" and for Alex, that means playing with his toys, playing/climbing/exploring outside. After business hours is a time to do some extra-curricular activities (ie: after dark or after mom or dad don't want to be outside anymore) like watching the Elmo Goes to the Potty dvd for the thousandth time, and someday (and I guess it sounds like it will be sooner rather than later - I had no idea all these sites were out there!!!) playing on the computer for a little bit.

[Luann]

Our little guy is just turning one next week so we haven't had to deal with this yet, but I know it will come, since his father is online about 16 hours a day, and he's already so fascinated with anything vaguely resembling an electronic device. I have to put in a plug for my friend Sue Shankle's book, What In The World Are Your Kids Doing Online.
http://www.whatintheworldareyourkidsdoingonline.com/sb/

[rudyinparis]

@Julie--I love the "business hours" idea! How cute is that?

[pnuts mama]

hee hee, the "business hours" line made me laugh and start humming the flight of the conchords "it's business time" refrain- which is a good change from the dunkin donuts "freezin at peewee hockey" refrain i suppose. oh jeez, now i've given away how much time i spend watching tv. yargh.

i think some excellent points have been made on using this as an opportunity for discussions, how computers should always be in common, well-used areas of the home, and especially how young kids have a much different understanding of social interaction in person vs. online.

i'm a big anti-video game person myself, such a mindless desensitizing time suck (and i'll admit the internet can be just as bad depending)that can be better spent doing so many other things. i debate in my head the rights of my kids to privacy vs. my responsibility to protect them as i consider having my tech guru brother in law install all sorts of safety programs and monitoring devices...sigh. maybe a move to a tropical island with no internet? but i'd miss all of you.

i often wonder how our society will change once we've truly crossed over into a virtual one- texting and myspace and rpgs, etc. i'll be the crotchety old lady on the porch saying "back in my day, when you had something to say to someone, you walked up to them and spoke with your mouth! crazy kids today!" sigh.

[Charisse]

I really struggle with this as someone whose parents were very anti-pop-culture. On the one hand, I don't want Mouse drinking in commercials and online ads...on the other, I know what it meant to have no idea what either Star Wars or Land of the Lost was in 1978, and to have heard my parents talk about that stuff in extremely derisive terms that we would naturally enough spout out when people laughed at us for being out of the loop. I was very far from popular in elementary school, suffice it to say.

And goodness knows, while neither of us are gamers, Mr. C and I are total nerds who spend much of our work and leisure time online (in fact, I do game research at work fairly often). And while gaming seems to be more of a special interest in our particular age group, it seems to be really one of the accepted media in folks 10 years younger.

And with the ad thing too, while I'm careful to protect her now--all of Mouse's TV is tivo'd and watched with a parent who can skip the commercials--I've also started talking with her about how ads work, especially if she's watching a sporting event with us, which she sometimes does, and we can't as easily delete the commercials.

On the computer, she likes to type letters and look at sites like flickr and Cute Overload, and she understands that we use it for looking things up and going shopping. I was really surprised to hear that some of her friends are playing computer games--she's 3 1/2--but they are. My instinct is not to start her now, but I don't want her to go through the kind of catch up I did when I finally had access to TV and music and spent a loooong time storing up the references I needed to know.

I like the idea of it being a conversation and revealing little bits at a time, and of computers (not to mention the TV) being in common areas only...and mom and dad following that rule too. The ToonTown set-up sounds quite safe to me.

[Suzie]

hi anastasia, your URL doesn't seem to work? Are you able to check the link or find it another way? Cheers

[DadsDinner.com]

Yep, playing computer games can be a 'mindless desensitising time suck' but so can reading books and newspapers, watching films or any number of other things. Moderation and some careful picking-and-choosing are required in everything.

Personally, I find computer games relax and rejuvenate me. Being able to get some occasional peace and quiet playing my Xbox in the evening has helped me cope with the challenges of looking after small children all day. I enjoy playing computer games so I'm happy for my kids to play them too. (I do keep a close eye on what they're up to, though).

[heather]

Although I'm an adult (most of the time, anyway), I play Club Penguin, mainly because I am a penguin collector and my husband got me a subscription as a gift. I play games to collect coins to "bling" out my iceberg, yadda, yadda, yadda. Every time I log on, I have no less than 3 other penguins asking to be my "friend." What I have noticed is that the kids (and yes, I'm assuming they are kids) get a thrill in just having a lot of "friends" on their friends list. In the 6 months I have played at Club Penguin, I have never had anyone ask/say/do anything inappropriate, nor have any of my "friends" even contacted me after the initial contact.

One of the things C.P. does is let other members be moderators. Have you seen what an 8 year old girl does when someone she is playing with breaks the rules?? Point being, there are so many kid-moderators running around (in addition to paid adult moderators) that the likelihood of someone saying/asking something inappropriate to anyone else is pretty slim. And if that were to happen, there are many, many tattletales there to let C.P. know. (Yes, I know if someone is hell-bent on abusing a child, being kicked off C.P. once or twice won't deter them, but I think the odds are pretty low.)

I haven't played Toontown, but C.P. is a Disney site as well, so I'm *assuming* a lot of the safety checks are the same.

I wouldn't hesitate to let my child play (when she's old enough to know what a computer is), but I would keep the communication open and look over her shoulder while folding the laundry.

[julie.]

My little boy will be 3 next month and has not touched a computer...yet. He sees me using my laptop and begged me for a "kids macintosh" so I made him a little cardboard laptop and he happily taps away on it sometimes.
I am 35 and didn't even have email until I was in college so maybe technology just freaks me out. (My big high school graduation gift was an electric typewriter!) There was a REALLY GOOD editorial in the wall st. journal last weekend by the father of 3 boys - 2 of them early teens - and how he had MANY regrets about giving his sons too much access to computer and video games, how they now had a strong addiction and how much the family was stuggling with trying to restict or eliminate the kids use.

Also, I've never bought into the argument that it's good for little kids to learn computer skills early, don't want to miss out, get left behind, etc etc. I have four older brothers and brother #2 got his college degree in electrical engineering and did his senior project with PUNCH CARDS. He's currently a computer genius (electrical engineer in the FAA) and my go-to person for all tech questions. Brother #1 is a software engineer for GE! These are two guys who never even used a computer until they were in college or beyond, so obviously these skills can be learned later without too much difficulty

[Diane]

To Julie, I mean no disrespect by this at all, but when your brothers were children, they weren't expected to have that computer knowledge because it didn't exist. Your children probably won't get through Kindergarten without some exposure to a computer. I don't disagree with anything you are saying, but do keep that in mind.

As far as the rest of the discussion goes, I'm on the moderation boat.

[Julie]

As a teacher, it was very difficult when I would have a core of kids who had never used a computer before.....along with another core who were already extremely computer literate. It helps if kids have the basic skills such as how to turn it on and off, open and quit applications, and have some basic web skills.

That being said, I'm not sure I want Alex online anytime soon - he's only 2! But I also don't want to forbid it because then he'll find friends who are allowed to do it and then I'm not around to talk with him about it, monitor it, etc.

But if his future behavior is based even LOOSELY on his eating habits, all I have to do is act like I really REALLY want him to play online computer games and he probably won't go near them.

[hedra]

I hate when the 'gut feeling' is two entirely different ends of the spectrum. The skills are great, the issues are great. I like Moxie's basically 'balance and moderation' approach. Use some sense about how much time, use the concepts to start the conversations, and don't fret until you see an actual live reason to do so.

So, here's how we do it at my house. Personal experience anecdote, maybe or maybe not useful to others.

Whenever my children ask for a computer game or game system, we ask them what time in the day they will give up (and the activity with it) in order to play - they have to figure out in ADVANCE how it will fit into their lives. If there's a nice chunk of 'pestering mom' or 'hanging about doing nothin' they could do something else with, hey, no problem. But there isn't. The hanging out doing nothin is actually 'playing with brothers/sisters' or 'reading' or 'running around in the yard'. With 'just/perfectly' one child, there might well be, or back when the younger sib was a baby. In fact, G used to spend more time on the keyboard playing kid computer games before B was born. After B was born, it was mainly playing with his brother (once said brother was old enough to participate).

When I've asked G what time he'd use to play computer games, he absolutely could not find a time/activity (other than homework time, LOL!) that he'd give up. His sibling time, his outdoor time, his reading time, his (somewhat limited but definitely present) video/tv time... nothing was something he'd like to trim. It caused him quite an emotional mangle as he realized that there was something really YUMMY he'd like to add to his life, and there was nothing he'd trade to let it in. One of my crowning moments in parenthood, realizing that he regarded the things he already did as treasures (though I'm not taking credit, just really enjoying this fact). So I hugged him, and told him I'd love to do many things, too, and there's nothing in my life (other than work or housework, so we're even on that!) that I'd give up so I could do those things. He's very attuned to his leisure time, and would far rather be under-scheduled than over-scheduled, to the point of stopping tai qi lessons because the practice time required meant he had to cut too much from his free time and rush his homework time. Not fun for him, so ... well, free time is important to him, and it isn't spent saying 'mom, I'm bored!'

The other thing that came into our conversation is the one wee little problem with any kind of computer game. Mommy is a computer game addict in a very bad way. Not just getting distracted and losing time to it, but the bad form - letting important things drop, thinking about the game constantly, doing things just so I can get more game time, sacrificing sleep, food, health (never got to the hygiene level, but that might have been next). I can deal with having some of the older games 'around', and I can deal with solitaire and such, but the more real the world created, the more it sucks my brains. So I just stopped allowing them in my life (fortunately this wasn't a problem for DH), and I luckily did this before online gaming was a big deal (to tell you how long ago, Myst 2 was the last one I cycled on...). I can't even walk past arcade games without craning my neck and slowing down, so ... well, bad idea in my house. That information was also a help to G - he didn't even know someone COULD react like that to 'just a game', and he also recognized (with a bit of an eye-roll) that if he did get a game, mommy might be sucking up HIS game time, too...

This is not at all to imply that a child who gets 'lost' in a game is an addict or potential addict. No more than a child who loses themselves in a book, or an adult who loses themselves in a movie. I do those things, too. But they don't cause me to ruin my life (okay, I'll lose sleep over a good book, but that's also temporary!).

To keep my kids from being totally computer illiterate, and because they really wanted it (and not at all incidentally because it was within budget), they've all been in computer classes (starting at under 3 years old) at their after-school programs. They LOVE it. And yes, they see mommy and daddy on the computer (if they get up before 6 AM, anyway), so they do want to copy our model.

Good luck finding the balance point. Oh, and thanks VERY much anastasiav for the reminder about the stats. It's also probably relevant that internet pervs are more likely to go seriously looking for the 12 (maybe 10) - 16-year old set, as there's no way to get the younger-than-thats to get 'away' on their own for them to get their hands on (provided the basics of internet safety are not handed out). I'm less bothered by the people likely getting jollies from interacting with small children - that could be the grocery store clerk handing out stickers to the littles, too, for all I know. Maintain the safety rules, stay alert, and let the rest go.

[Alison S]

My daughters are 13 and 9, and we are English, so there may be some minor cultural variation here, but here's my perspective on all this:
We have always rationed screentime. They get an hour a day, which they can use for TV or computer, on non-school days, 40 minutes on school days. We have Quality Time installed on the PC, which automatically limits the time to a pre-set level; we installed this when the older child was about 10 and we caught her getting up at 6 am to sneak extra screen time when we were in bed. They are reasonably good about sticking to this, although of course they always want more. In addition, they are allowed some extra TV if we are all watching it as a family together or on weekend mornings. They don't have any screens in their bedrooms (nor do we), which is very unusual here, with the exception that the older one has a laptop with no internet access, so she can use it to write in her room if she wants to.
The family PC is in the dining room, which adjcins the kitchen. Initially we restricted what sites they could go to, but found this didn't work because they just kept going to other sites anyway, often inadvertantly. We have no nanny software, but I walk through the dining room all the time while they are on the PC, so I know what they are doing. I would estimate that about half the time they are using software - usually the Sims - and the rest of the time they are online, either researching things they are currently interested in - clothes, dogs, whatever - or on online games or social networking sites. The 13 year old has recently joined Bebo, which is like Facebook; we have a rule that she is only allowed to be friends with someone whom she knows in real life. Those of you who have tiny children might be surprised by how worldly wise (at least my) 13 year old can be: she is almost keen to be approached by an online paedophile so she can demonstrate how much she would despise and resist him! I have never found her interacting with anyone she doesn't know in real life for more than five minutes casual role play, on any of these sites: most teens I know use these sites for mindless chat with the same people they have been seeing at school all day.
As for phones: my 13 year old does need hers, because she goes to school by train on her own and needs to be able to phone me if there is a problem. She uses it to chat to her friends, sure, but much less than I expected.
I think there is one major point that those of you with younger children might not yet have considered: how different from their peers do you want your children to be? It's hard enough being a teenager without facing ostracism because you don't fit with everyone else. If everyone has a phone, or goes on Facebook, or has their ears pierced, or whatever, is it really worth incurring your child's bitter resentment to hold fast to the principles you initially held, or is it better to compromise and keep a dialogue going? I parent by supervising and talking to them: other than the time limits, I am very permissive about where they go on line, under my eye: I reckon that they are going to explore anyway, and better they do so under my eye in circumstances where there's a good chance they'll talk to me about it, than in secrecy because they know I won't let them do something. But others will feel differently, of course.

[Jill]

I guess I'm a Prehistoric Mom being forced into the 21st century. My 1st grader has online homework! We don't have any tv watching other than the occasional family dvd until after kids are tucked in for the night (and he hasn't ever asked for it, assuming it is a grownup thing like beer or wine I guess) so the need for computer access for school really threw me. We've given him our old laptop and put it in a common room, but so far all we've shown him are the homework sites and Google Earth. I'm not ready for him to consider staring at a screen "playtime".

However... I'm thinking of letting him have his own email account to correspond with family members out of town. Seems like great spelling practice. Anyone have suggestions for how to do it safely? Moxie?

[Rbelle]

I'm not a mom yet, but I do have a suggestion for parents of older kids (still remembering much of that time myself, after all). Hedra mentioning Myst 2 reminded me ... the Myst games started coming out when I was in high school and my brother was still in elementary. After we all played the first one and enjoyed it independently, my parents realized that they could turn it into a fun family activity. They ordered the second one and we played the whole thing through as a family - all gathered around the computer for two or three hours each weekend, working together to solve the puzzles, each one of us getting a turn as the "driver." This kept any one of us from getting too wrapped up/wasting time on it, let us get quality "family" time, and was really challenging mentally. It also was an incentive for getting the weekend chores/homework done quickly :)

The best part was that no one in my family was so good they could solve everything - not even my dad, who's quite a "brain" - so at one point or another, we all contributed good ideas for solving problems, and it felt really good when we finally made it to the end.

Of course, now my brother is crazy about games, but I think that's just his inherent nerd. I play very few, and only as a social activity (my old roommate and I used to play PS2 games together), and my fiance hates them, but I do hope to get the Myst games so we can play them together, as a bonding experience. ;)

[Julie]

Oh the Myst games. And don't forget Riven! Loved those. But remember those are self-contained. I actually bought the Myst games recently online so I could play them again, but sadly I'm on Mac and OSX doesn't support them. So sad.

[moxywoxy]

Wow. With an 8 month old, these are all bridges I have yet to cross, though I know they'll come sooner than I think.

For what it's worth, though, here's my take.

I think a restricted forum such as described is good for all the reasons pointed out, and can be bad for all the reasons described. As a product of a household in which the television was tightly controlled, I'm changing my 'tv is the work of the devil' stance, because there are things that kids can see on TV that they won't see digging in the dirt all day--again, good and bad.

This is where you the parent get to decide how much is good--seeing tigers in their *actual* habitat, not in the zoo--and how much is bad--shall we say, primetime?

It seems that the same would hold true for the online games. Yes, you want them to learn what wonders the internet has to offer, but no, you probably don't want them to form more meaningful relationships with Happy Snacklepants than they do with you and the rest of the denizens of the flesh and blood world, nor do you want their primary life goal to be the mass accumulation of jellybeans.