Q&A: father not caring for baby

Kelly writes:

"First of all let me start with my sincere thanks for your site. As a first time mother living in fairly isolated circumstances (my husband and I are expats in Thailand which means access to very few family or professional support systems) I have found your site invaluable and have spent many hours scrolling through the archives. On particularly trying days I often find pieces of wisdom from you and your commentators popping into my mind and making me laugh or giving me new things to try with my 12 week old son.

I am writing to you about son’s relationship with my partner. I know you have written in previous posts that their relationship is not my responsibility and I agree with this and I am not trying to create or manage it for them, but here is the situation. My partner loves our son dearly. However, he seems to be at a bit of a loss as to what to do with him. As a result he tends to do very little. If I ask him to he will take him and play or hold him for 5 – 10 minutes but after that he puts him in his bouncy chair and continues with whatever he was doing without interacting with the baby at all. I try not to interfere but it breaks my heart to see our generally cheerful son’s face as he looks at his dad for some attention and smiles without getting any feedback and I usually end up taking him for playtime with me.

On a practical level I also need a break in terms of nappy changes and settling for sleep. I need to know that if I want to or have to go out for a couple of hours they will be OK together and my son will not be left crying because his dad doesn’t know how to comfort him and will give up on trying -- as happened on the one time I have left them together for more than 30 minutes when I had to go to a work meeting. As a result of this one time I have been reluctant since to leave them alone together and for my own sanity I need to get out more!

I really need some advice on how to help my husband understand that baby needs his dad to pay him attention, comfort him and really interact with him and ways in which I can help my husband to learn the skills necessary to manage the baby (without telling him how to do things as I am conscious he will have to learn his own way of doing things). Also any thoughts on activities they can do together bearing in mind that we live in a very polluted and “park-less” city which means going for a nice long walk with baby in the kangaroo pouch (which they both enjoyed when we were recently overseas) is not really possible.

I am concerned about the long term ramifications that the lack of interaction will have on their relationship and would really appreciate any advice you have on this."

I really love the internet. It makes me so happy that my dorky little site can help people connect with each other and help each other all over the world.

It sounds like one of two things is happening here. Either your husband just hasn't figured out that he's the dad yet (which I can understand, since while 12 weeks is an eternity in some ways, it's a blink of the eye in others), or he's feeling conflicted or stressed and is showing that externally as indifference.

It's entirely possible that he just hasn't figured out that he's the dad yet, and that he's got to be the one who actually takes care of the baby. At that stage in the game I can still vividly remember hearing my older son cry and thinking "When is this baby's mother going to come take care of him?" and then having that thunk of realization of "Oh. I'm the baby's mother." And that was after the whole pregnancy and labor and delivery and leaky boobs and all of that. So I'd imagine it's even harder for a man, who doesn't have that constant physical reminder that he's now in charge of caring for a teeny tiny person.

I also think some men just have problems connecting with their children when they're tiny and not so interactive yet. You hear stories over and over again about men who barely pay attention to their babies but can't be dragged away from the same children as toddlers. Once kids can talk and walk and play, it becomes easier for some fathers to connect with them. So a lack of bonding and interest in the baby stage doesn't mean a man will never interact with his kids ever.

I think it's also possible that he's feeling pressure and anxiety about being a new dad and being so responsible for your son and the family, and that it's making him curl back into himself. What seems like indifference could just be fear and stress. (If there are any dad readers who'd like to comment about this, please do!) I think for women, we take so much of the parenting hit physically, between the sleep deprivation and constant carrying and feeding and everything else, that it's hard to remember that the men are also in the middle of a huge change, and feel pressure and fear and can be as overwhelmed as we are.

Now clearly it doesn't help anyone for your husband not to be doing any care of the baby. Especially when he's the only one in charge. I don't know his personality of how best to approach him about it, but I generally think honesty is the best policy. Simply stating what you've observed and asking him how he's feeling may help get to the bottom of it. If he really just hasn't connected yet, you may have to lay out expectations (i.e. if the baby's crying, pick him up and go through the routine until he's settled again). If he's feeling stressed and is withdrawing because of that, then you have a bigger opportunity to grow closer by working through your stress and all these changes together.

That sounded really Pollyanna-ish, didn't it?

I do think that if you both can acknowledge how you're feeling at this super-stressful time of life, and work together to help each other out (which means he needs to learn how to care for the baby) you can grow together and be stronger. If you let things fester, it'll make everything worse. So you're going to have to have the crappy conversation.

Comments? Again, I'd especially love to hear the male point of view on this.

Comments

[cloud]

Clara- I had a bit of the problem your hubby has. I wasn't sure how to play with Pumpkin (who is 9.5 months and so wants to play). My Hubby, on the other hand, has no problem with this. Some things that helped me: We got an outdoor swing, which she loooooves. She particularly loves it when I pretend her little legs are going to hit me and jump out of her way. I also am reading "Playful Parenting", a book Moxie recommended elsewhere. It is mostly about older kids, but has given me some ideas. And I've just watched what works for Hubby and for the grandparents. You might try suggesting a few games. So Big, hide and seek/chase, Pat-A-Cake, and block tower toppling are big hits in our house right now. However, no matter who is playing with her, Pumpkin loses interest w/in 10 minutes or less and is on to the next thing, which may be playing with her toys on her own or taking all the books off our our shelves while we do our kitchen chores. Her attention span just isn't up to more yet.

[Julie]

Clara....oh yes. We still struggle with that too. Like I said earlier, DH does one day a week....but it's a full day with feeding him breakfast, snack, lunch, going to the park, running errands. Playing with a 10 month old is still hard work because they don't communicate much, BUT they understand tons AND they want what they want and can't tell you. They are interested in repetition, mind-numbing games that are often hard for adults to enjoy.

The trick for my husband really is to get into the meat of the day with him - surrendering his desires for what he wants to do completely over to Alex's desires. Once you hit that zen state of being....it's a lot easier to go with the flow. To accept the fact that it's not your agenda or what is fun for you...if scooping beans in and out of an egg carton is fun for the little one, you do it.

And complain about it later to your spouse. I think enjoyment from playing with small kids - even after the personality fairy has arrived - is individual. Some people love it because they can focus on the details. Some dads struggle with it b/c they are big picture people and can't for the love of Mike figure out what is so fascinating about a kid who wants to scoop beans all day long.

[Shelley]

I think one of the truths about babies and small children is that playing with them can be delightful, charming and cute. But like a lot of people are saying, it can also be excruciatingly dull.

I wonder if there's some sort of cultural issue at work in your dilemma, Kelly? Does your husband come from a culture or a family where gender roles are more rigid, and his expectation is that you do more? Maybe not, but it might be worth discussing what your expectations are of each other when you talk about this, as that might be playing some role here.

[m]

Like Alison, my husband takes care of most of the baths. In fact, this week I bathed my son for the first time in months and months and I really was at a loss! I didn't do it very well at all. I completely endorse the giving him a duty thing.

I agree with Moxie that a talk about this is a good thing, as well as perhaps he's just waiting until the kid is a bit older to interact. I know that's what happened with a friend of mine. I'm also a firm believer of just leaving the house for a few hours and let them figure it out. Do it regularly. Sign up for a yoga class or something, a weekly thing that makes sure you're out of the house for an hour or two and then he has to figure it out. It will work out.

[epeepunk]

Hello - hedra's DH here, summoned to this thread.

I don't have the time or the brain to process and analyze and respond to the comments (which would be the engineer/architect/male part of me) so I will contain myself to providing the stay-at-home dad perspective.

I completely agree that before 12 weeks they are boring lumps, and after that for a bit too. So we watched TV together, and ran errands (like food shopping and auto parts) and I even took him out several times in his carrier. He'd sit on my lap while I did school work. And naps on the sofa - lots of naps on the sofa. But through that got to the point that I knew his cries better than hedra - much to her chagrin one day when I was able to say, while she's holding him, that he was hungry.

I developed an understanding of how much time I had available for errands before I had to feed him again. He soon developed a preference for warm milk, so it worked better to be home.

I will admit that my experience with my nieces helped me out since I wasn't clueless about how to hold them, or change them. But the finer points or burping and feeding and entertainment were new for me. And our parenting styles were different - I was more likely to wait and see if he could reach the toy he dropped rather than hand it to him.

The most valuable thing was that hedra allowed me to develop my own style and methods without judgement - and some of my ways worked better. Usually hedra will do the research, develop a plan, and then inform me of the process - and I prefer that for many things, like diets and healthcare. But not for playing and diapering - those are open.

Hope that helps.

[Kathy]

Re: dads get PPD, too.

One of the things I learned at my postpartum mood disorders support group is that a high percentage of the time, once a woman starts to recover from PPD, her partner crashes. The partner has had to shoulder so much extra emotional burden, living with a newborn and a depressed person, once they don't have to hold it all together anymore, it's their turn to fall apart. But, since this is usually a husband, and since men deal with depression so differently than women, and since they don't have the "excuse" of postpartum hormones, it largely goes unrecognized. Sad, but not uncommon.

[Kylie]

I remember feeling similarly about my husband in the beginning and my sister-in-law so kindly reassured me that it takes time for men to bond with this little helpless infant that can't laugh at any of their antics. I remember when my husband was first around newborns (before our own) and he thought he was going to break the child. Now at 9.5 months he is her biggest fan and many a days he comes home and you'd think I was dirt. We still have phases of mommy doing everything but now it's because the baby insists it be that way. The best advice is give them space to "just do it". Leave them alone together for short bits of time to gradually longer ones (even if it is just you in the shower and them in the rest of the house). Also, show your husband some fun things that make the baby happy and he'll likely mimic you when you're not watching. Example, hey honey isn't it cute this face baby makes when we play peek-a-boo. Or when he comes home from work and asks what you did today, say something like, oh I learned baby really likes to look in the mirror at herself.

[Dave]

Being a new dad is a scary business. The little creature your DP has just passed needs looking after big time and if you don’t know how to do it, I can imagine it being REALLY scary.

I agree with Moxie, when people are scared they go back to what they know, so if he puts the baby down and cracks on with what he was doing when the baby is crying, it may be that he is scared that he can’t help.

Women have got an advantage; they have been cooking the thing for 9 months so its more real for them and their hormones help their mothering instinct. They have had a longer mental preparation and time for research. The reality isn’t so obvious for men so IMO we are less well prepared and tend to be a bit crap.

Something for your Husband to try that helped us and that is really easy is the 5 S’s, urrr:

1. Put them on the Side;
2. Swing them;
3. Shake them (not too hard!);
4. Shush them and;
5. let them Suck something.

Get me! I didn’t even google that!

Maybe teach your husband this, its easy and works. Something that is really simple and effective. He’ll be a hero. A bit of hero worship and he’ll be much more confident and may start doing more.

Let’s face it a 12 weeks they are bundles of not very well coordinated organs that make loud noises and stop you from conducting your life as you have known it for the past n years. There’s not a lot of pay-off. When the smiles start and the laughing develops then the reward becomes bigger. I also think that men find girls sweeter than boys at this age, which makes father-daughter relations easier. But when they grow, men will play better with boys: football, soccer, cricket, ice hockey, pelota vasca, darts, wherever you are from… and this is when dads come into their own.

As for not doing his share of the nappy changes, put a dirty nappy in the end of his bed, godfather-style, see how he likes sleeping in poop all night. (Make him sleep somewhere else eh?)

I like epeepunks thing of doing research. Ask him to google stuff for you (maybe the 5 s’s). Maybe doing the research will help him to feel more included in raising baby and he’ll start to feel more confident that way. Yeah, reading that back, I think it is a confidence thing, help build his up and he’ll start doing more.

Good luck,

Sam’s DH.

[Simone]

First of all, congrats on the baby, and welcome to the wild and wonderful ride of motherhood!!

My husband often recounts, sometimes fondly and other times sadly, how hard it was for him in those early months with our first son. He has articulated that it was hard for him to interact with someone who a) didn't exhibit much of a personality (so that it was hard to "get to know" him), and b) didn't "give anything back." Both of those things, I found were critical for him to *like* the baby. Don't get me wrong, on all levels, he immediately and always LOVED the baby, but it took a while for him to "see how cool of a kid he was." This transition happened, I dunno, maybe around a year (perhaps sooner, can't recall). He was always a wonderful caregiver, and very loving, but simply at a loss at how to get to know this new person that didn't do much except have patterns of bahavior.

Now, fast-forward 4 years, and he and our first son have the most amazing relationship, and I see the same thing materializing with our second son, now 9 months old. Ironically, just today he told me that he sees B's "coolness" much sooner than he did with #1, and he figured it was because #2 is hitting those physicall, interactive (e.g. crawling on and wrestling with) milestones sooner. And he also realizes how FAST this time goes, so he's relishing it more rather than wishing onto the next stage. So I guess what I'm saying is that I think guys need a different kind of interaction with babies to form a "relationship" beyond love and nurturing.

As for how to spend time, what my husband did was what he did naturally, but just took the baby along and narrated. Take the dog for a walk, do dishes while baby's in the highchair, etc. Simply having him near, talking to him, etc. helped form that bond and easiness, while also honing those multi-tasking skills. (Which is a little different from putting him in an exersaucer while readin the paper.)

I think it will get better as he adjusts and baby grows. Hang in there!!

[hedra]

I had to pause about the 'don't remember stuff before 3' thing, because, well, I *do* remember stuff before then. WAY before then.

That said, it doesn't make a huge difference. The difference in cognition before 2 or 3 or so is HUGE - it's just alien to how we think 'now'. Do your best, and carry on, and don't fret about what they might remember, because they won't remember it the same as you would anyway. And they'll remember different stuff - my mom remembers about half the things I remember, but some of my other sibs have confirmed other memories, and some are just not possible to put together. :shrug:

I mean, my earliest memories don't even include understanding that I cried, or communicated anything outwardly. I felt, then something happened. Sometimes happened right away, sometimes happened with a delay. But I felt, and then the large warm one with the great physical mass would appear nearby and I would fly over that white horizontal boundary and rest against at that angle and then would fly around the room backwards for a while, my head bobbing up and down. Best I can tell, that was my dad coming in when I cried at night, picking me up and walking me around carried against his shoulder.

So, um, reality from baby's perspective - kinda 'things is what they is'. Moment-to-moment, things are bright or they are dark, they are horizontal, or high, or close. My crib was the flat thing with the high horizontal thing over which I flew. No sense of relationships, though love was kind of ever-present in that deeper sense - it was ALL love. Love even in the uncomfortable feeling before something happened, less discomfort 'in the way' after something happened to make the discomfort go away, but still there.

Later on, the thinking was still so wildly self-centered that I can remember the rage attack when I realized that I didn't actually control the sunlight. And later, when I discovered to my terror that the world was shrinking slowly, and I was afraid it would all shrink away to nothing, poof, and so clung to everything precious with desperation... until I figured out (through my sister's patient older-child educating sibling) that it was ME that was getting bigger, and everything else was the same size as it had always been. HOLY COW. Revelations. (Funny, I worshipped that sister - she seemed to know everything!) Fussy stages, in and of themselves, were probably more life-altering than almost anything my parents did before I was three.

I do remember some other stuff that might have given my mom pause to think I would recall. My mom getting frustrated, I remember. My older brother was a major PAIN at 3 years old. But .. well, yeah, it was important, but it didn't affect me more than a few moments most of the time, even directed at me. After 3, more so - but before? Nah. Before what stuck was butterflies, and the light on dew, and the amazing expanse of carpet all the same textures over and over and over seemingly for miles and all the time in the world to explore it (even if my mom might disagree), and oh, that amazing sound, my mother's laughter. Probably the most 'scarring' event was getting very briefly separated from my mom and grabbing onto some other lady's skirt only to look up and realize that something major was wrong - and to my mind it was more that my mom had been taken by aliens and converted to another person, at least it seemed so for the moment it took my actual mom to turn around and rescue me... I'd turned away, and turned back not far enough. She was right there, but I was shaken really badly for quite a while. Not something you can control, that.

Oh, and I guess almost drowning was a bad moment, too. Walked across the deep end of a pool, full of water... that was bad. But the things that were traumatic in the long run were either things that there's NO way to spot coming, or they were things we'd know were HUGE no matter what. The almost drowning being an example. And I'm sure that each child filters differently, and experiences differently.

So, those of us who remember before 2 or 3 still give those early parental misfires a pass. What I remember *most* is the positive stuff from that time. I didn't bother to remember most of the scary stuff - and didn't remember anything of the near-drowning after my foot hit the water until I was well into adulthood, when it came back spontaneously at one point, complete with the kind of casual reaching out to see if I could touch the wall as I was sinking sinking sinking down, kind of 'hey, I wonder if I can' and not thinking much beyond that other than HEY, dangit, I thought that water that didn't move was ICE, and therefore I could walk on it! I was *wrong*! I hate being wrong!

Heh. Probably formative, there, too. ;)

Okay, M asks me to make lots of M's: (and she is making it impossible to go back and edit AT ALL, so ... sigh.) MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

There.

[Mommy-O]

I have to totally agree with Moxie. My husband took about 2 years to really realize that he was a father and was equally responsible for our now 3 year old. The early months were the worst but I also found it to be an issue when I returned to work after 10 months. He tended to forget that I had worked an 8 hour day too.

IME, a lot of men have no idea what to do with an infant, and to be honest, us moms sometimes find it hard to let go of the responsibility, especially if we are breastfeeding.

We now have an 8 week old and again it took my husband a bit to adjust and get used to interacting with an infant. I recently realized that my husband has been watching me as I interact with our son and sees baby smiling and cooing at me. I actually think that he was a bit jealous until he realized that he can get the same reaction.

We have had the challenge of having winter babies which can be isolating at times and limits outdoor activities. One of the best things that my husband did with our daughter and is now doing with our son is to read to them. He also likes to put on music and dance with them and sing. They are also enrolled in an infant massage class offered by our local community centre. This may not be available to you but infant massage/parent-baby exercise can be found on tape/DVD or there are plenty of books describing how to do it.

Something I have learned to do is to designate a certian task to my husband, e.g. diaper-changer. Aside from saving my back, this gives him designated times during the day when he has to interact with our son so he gradually develops his own rapport. If he isn't already, perhaps there is a regular task that your husband would be willing to take on, e.g. bath time, dressing baby for bed, even burping.

Good luck! I am sure he will come around but it can be very overwhelming and tiring in the meantime.

[lorraine]

Just chiming in as a mom who does NOT have that superpower of *knowing* what her baby's cries mean... it was easy when he was either hungry, wet or tired, but now that he's expanding his emotional range (and teething, and going through a growth spurt), it's harder than ever to figure out what's going on in that 8-month-old's head.

For the first four months, my husband was helpful but eager to hand the little guy off at the first sign of tears. Then, I went back to work... M has little guy at least one night a week (from 5 - 9) and every other Saturday. And that has made a world of difference. Because he didn't have breastfeeding to solve all woes, he learned a variety of tricks to soothe and entertain - and more importantly, he learned that sometimes little guy just needs to cry. He definitely has put little guy down and walked away when trying to soothe has just ramped up tension for both of them - he knows enough to step away and reconsider.

It's a skill I'm still working on - after all, I'm *supposed* to KNOW why little guy is crying, and how to fix it. When I don't or can't, I get very down about it. So I'm trying to learn some of M's tricks, and borrow his way more relaxed mindset too.

[Shandra]

I once again am skipping the comments to read tomorrow but I wanted to respond.

I think this is normal but I do think there are things you can do. Let your husband do what he's going to do, even if he is parking the baby in a bouncy chair. But in a little while when the baby is older see if you can get them into a class or routine - my DH took my son to parent-tot swimming starting around 7 (?) months old and it made a HUGE difference for them to have 'their' activity where I did not know what the routine was, wasn't there, etc.

My other practical advice is that the Ergo is kind of manly, and there is nothing sexier than a man going about his business with his baby nestled against his chest.

[sheSaid]

We have been dealing with our own issues over here (only sleeping 45 min at a time.... only wanting the boob) but after reading all the great stuff on here I have taken a differnt approach with my husband and baby. my DH loves our son and loves daddy time. But often we all fall apart at night and lately with the whole 45 min sleep and only wanting the boob thing... and it being cold so daddy walks are harder I had felt ALONE again. Alone because I was always looking for solution, I was always coming up with ideas, I was always trying everything.

So we are not cold turkey with mamma (or not for too long because will only take the boob!!) but I let my husband try and wait for him to ask me for help. By the way I told him I was going to do this. And this has been much better. Also totally the more time they get together the better they are together. Bath time is a blast! We also today played chase. Daddy held him and ran away from me as I 'chased' after. And sometimes you just need a break and they just need to deal. The more they do it, the better they get. Just let him know you don't judge him or think he's a bad dad cause he cries. I sometimes need to remind my DH that our son cries for me too, I don't always know what to do. And perhaps just say please I really want you to just focus on the baby for 15 min. he can sit in the bouncy chair, read to him, make funny faces, talk to him about his day (that was a great suggestion from above!)

[Christine]

I have no advice to add - you've gotten so much already! But we went through the same thing. My husband had never held a baby prior to our son's birth. He started wearing Max a lot and that helped, and now, with our son almost 3, they have the best relationship. My husband considers our daughter to be "my project" at the moment, which is fine, because I know how things are going to turn in a few months.

For my husband, at least, the change happened when Max started interacting with his environment more. Paul likes seeing Max's perspective on things.

[amy]

My husband, though he didn't appear as distant as Kelly describes, told me that in the beginning it was exactly as hard as PP have talked about. He also found it a lot easier to get connected with our daughter when:
1. I told him "You are ON now" and "You are OFF now",
2. I told him what developmental milestones were coming, and then he'd work with her on those (probably this falls under the heading of "I gave him something concrete to work on"), and
3. the Personality Fairy showed up at six months, at the onset of meaningful language and at each physical milestone (walking, running, jumping, etc.), and as my daughter got through the stranger-danger phase, which sadly included Daddy.

Good luck, my dear. You're doing a great job in a tough situation!

[juliag]

Okay. I haven't read all the comments...so perhaps I'm repeating others. But a friend of mine told me (when I was pregnant and feeling unconnected to the baby) that "mom doesn't 'get it' until the baby is born, and dad doesn't 'get it' until the baby starts talking". That is totally true for us.

A few months ago my hubby started saying stuff like "isn't it weird that we have this third person living with us?" And I was like "DUDE! DS is 18 months old! Are you just noticing now?!?". Very funny to me actually. DH is definitely taking a more active role now that DS is able to demand his attention. He can't resist a "Daddy, daddy, daddy!" when they come home from work at night?

[lurkyloo]

I just had to de-lurk to share my experience. I was so, so disillusioned that my DH wasn't the dad I had imagined he would be (therin lies part of the problem, as a PP mentioned about preconceived ideas) when chickpea was born. I truly thought he would be a babywearing, diaper changing, up during feedings for moral support superdad. In reality, he did almost nothing for the first six months (literally--I could count the diaper changes on one hand). I had to basically have a blubbering breakdown before he would offer help. I now know that he was overwhelmed, tired, and feeling useless for most of that time. From my perspective at the time, he was being self-centered and ignoring both my needs and the baby's. I am so impressed that you don't sound resentful and sorry for yourself, Kelly, because that's where I was for those months, and it didn't help matters at all. Anyway, I think you'll communicate much better than I did. And, like PPs have said, now that chickpea is walkin' and talkin', she and Daddy are BFF.

[laura]

I'm also an ex-pat parent in Thailand, and if Kelly lives in the Bangkok area, it's isn't as support-less and park-less as it seems. There is a huge ex-pat parenting organization called BAMBI (yeah, I know, bad name, but it's an acronym). Their website is www.bambiweb.org and they have a support group for new moms, as well as playgroups for infants (ie. chat time for moms). Also, there are lovely walking paths in Lumphini Park and Queen Sirikit Park that *almost* allow a person to forget that they're surrounded by a few million motor vehicles. Bangkok is hard because you really have to seek places like this out - we ended up settling in the 'burbs to get a little peace and fresher air.

I am not 100% sure, but the BAMBI organization may have satellite branches in Pattaya or Chiang Mai ...

[Anon]

This is a really painful topic for me. I don't want to scare Kelly, but my husband has never: put the baby down for a nap or the night, given her a bottle, given her a bath, chosen or prepared her food, or dressed her. He has *once* undressed her and put her in pajamas (last week!) and has changed her diaper probably less than 20 times. And she's 15 months old. After months of my pushing/nagging/crying/etc. he finally saw a therapist and received - surprise! - a diagnosis of depression. While I am not happy with this situation, I've had to focus on accepting what he will do with our daughter at this point (walks, taking her to baby sing-a-longs, watching TV, grocery shopping). But on the positive side, our daughter adores her dad, knows he's the go-to guy for Sesame Street, and will fall asleep for him if I leave the house (although he then just sits very still instead of putting her in her bed until I get home to transfer her - aaargh!). I feel like this is not a very helpful post. But I guess I want to say that the most helpful thing for me has been to stop comparing my husband to fathers who do lots of babycare - it's just not going to happen and my resentment is not going to change anything.

[Emily]

Kelly, I am checking in a third time, just to say that we are all rooting for you here, and I hope you write back in a few months, or whenever, to let us know what worked and what didn't, and how things have progressed with your family!

[Mona]

My apologies if this has already been said but also having him go along for doctor's appointments can help because he then becomes a more active participant in baby care and can ask questions directly. And leave them alone to figure each other out. A 12 week old really doesn't need much and time in the bouncy seat near Dad is not that bad. In some ways it can be very beneficial for the child to not be constantly entertained and stimulated since that's impossible to maintain if you're going to have a second. I'm on my third and you just can't be everywhere at once. I am NOT advocating CIO just saying a little downtime is not so bad. But if he's willing, just leave them alone for periods of time and everyone will figure each other out.

[Shandra]

I came back and re-read the comments and it struck me that you had mentioned nighttime parenting. I had to learn to wake my husband up and say "I NEED you to take the baby" and walk away.

After about a month of doing that, my DH actually started waking up - not to the baby's cries, at that point, but to a particular note in my voice that said "mother about to start flipping out"

I guess the lesson there is don't give him options when you are at your breaking point. Just say "I'm at my breaking point, here is your son, I am going to go cry in the bathroom."

[Ellen]

I still remember the moment my husband realized that he had finally bonded with our first daughter. She was seven months old and had her first cold. He looked at me and said "I know how badly she feels, and I want to make it better. I think this means I'm fully bonded with her."

It took seven months, but it did happen. He suffered from the "not knowing he was actually a dad syndrome" for quite awhile (coinciding with completing his dissertation), but he did get it. Your partner will too.

Now we have two girls, and with the second he was super dad from the moment she entered the world. The difference is almost stunning.

[Melissa]

Really agree with Moxie: it probably hasn't sunk in yet, 12 weeks old is not terribly interactive if you aren't connecting just yet, and you're going to have to have the crappy conversation.
One additional thing, you mention that when your partner does not demonstrate a deep level of interaction with your son, you step in. I would advise to not step in unless your son is really wigging out. Even a little low-level fussing is going to be good to help your partner begin to understand that there is a place for him in this new relationship, too.
I guess what I'm saying is I saw my neighbors do this. When Baby Boy came home, Dad really wasn't always sure how to care for him and, being a first-time Mom, Mom really was very pro-active in meeting all of Baby Boy's needs. Ultimately this turned out to be that Baby Boy was several months old before he and Daddy would have groovy play time. Obviously, I'm an outsider, so there may have been other issues going on there, but this was my observation from interacting with them and conversations with them both.
Don't worry, though; he'll get it. There will come some moment when your son just becomes the center of the world. They'll bond; it may take time and opportunity, but they'll bond.
All the best; eat some lovely food for me.

[pnuts mama]

@ hedra- i would imagine that your experience of memory and identifying of emotional and physical experiences from an early age is the exception and not the norm for the average person/parent. it's too bad in a way, because therapy is a great way to identify many experiences from your past that indicate issues in your present- i know that you've spent a great deal of time figuring stuff out (i'm not necessarily a big fan of the term self-actualized, but i think ykwim), and more of us probably could benefit from the same insight.

my own experience is that i certainly do remember things from before three- but more as snapshots or pictures, not at all as emotional reactions to experiences, or even in "video". for example, i can see the pattern of my dad's hospital curtain and the scale outside his room in the hallway right now if i close my eyes. but i can't remember *anything* about my biological mom, who died only months before that- that's not to say that her death didn't effect me even though i don't remember it- clearly it influences abandonment and trust issues, etc. but for my sister, who was 6 at the time of her death, and definitely remembers her, those issues are much more pronounced and influential.

i think the comment about "not remembering things before three" is more of a way as parents we can give ourselves a break- not beat ourselves up over every!little!thing! and decision- i'm sure most people would agree that major traumas during even infant hood probably effect us well into our adult years (and need to be identified in therapy), but minor incidents (unless they repeat and become a pattern/way of life) will leave the average individual unharmed.

for example, there's a difference between letting baby #3 cry for 10 minutes while you attend to #2's immediate crisis- (as a parent you give yourself a break and think "no permanent damage done to #3) and *never* attending to #3's cries immediately which could lead to detachment/abandonment issues. i think that sometimes parents need the assurance that the little things are just that, little, and aren't going to cause some un-fixable damage, or any damage at all.

[trope]

@Kathy and the male PPD: thank you for the warning, that's really good to know about in advance. I am just now on the upswing and we have both had issues with depression in the past, so it's good to be warned.

My hubby tried to work very hard to keep me from getting depressed in the first few months; it didn't really work. But the upside was that he formed a great bond with the Bug, even in the "lumpy" months, in an attempt to stave that off. So it's not typical how-to-bond-with-baby advice, but it's the thing that worked for my family.

Someone's comment about Dad often waiting to see if the baby will reach for a toy before picking it up for him really resonated. I developed a thing between 3 and 4 months about "we have to stimulate his little brain and keep him entertained ALL THE TIME!" when Bug was just reaching the age where he can play independently. It was hard for my husband to convince me that sometimes the baby can just chill, either in the room with us or in his crib. So, in moderation, that Dad's style of present-but-not-interacting might be reassuring and helpful to the baby. The trick is just knowing the balance of quiet and play that your particular baby needs.

[limboland la la]

Hi-- I don't have much experience about fathers...but I'm pregnant in Bangkok. So I've been looking into mother support groups-- there's Bambi at http://www.bambiweb.org/. They have mother groups for sure...but perhaps they would have something that's father oriented as well?

Also, although this doesn't address your problem directly there are lots of parks and big ones too! Lumpini park (Silom area) , Mochit Park (Mochit...near J.J market...just get off the sky train)... a fairly large one on Sukumvit across from the Emporium shopping mall (Phrom Pong sky train..I think) and Victory Monument area there's a smaller one on Soi Rang Nam. So conceivably a walk or two could be put in.... but yes, it's certainly dirty.

Shopping malls are usually chaotic here (as you may have noticed) but a few quieter ones include the Emporium (phrom pong skytrain), the Esplanade (Thailand Cultural Center subway) Central World/World Trade Center (chitlom sky train)...

Anyways, goodluck.

[Julie]

Something my husband has struggled with in his role as Dad is this: I am not an overly mushy, touchy-feeley, lovey-dovey person. So when Alex came along, it was a shock to him to see me cuddle endlessly, kiss, hug, snuggle, etc. in a way he's never seen before. And he got jealous. Especially since he never had that from his mom. Ever. He doesn't remember her ever picking him up or hugging him and telling him she loved him. Every time I jumped up to respond to Alex - no matter what time of day - with love and kisses and hugs, was another time he realized I did *not* do that for him. Ever. Because seriously, he's an adult. His needs can wait. A screaming infant...not so much. Right? Hm.

It manifested itself in some interesting ways (think jealous cat behavior - flushing the toilet when he knew I was trying to put Alex down). But consider how it might feel to constantly watch the woman you love *seem* to love someone else more deeply than you. It's taken a lot of therapy and talking about it - and some serious changes on my part (and some mental screaming: Jeez...you're an adult for pete's sake!!) but it's really helped him to get out of *his* head and realize that my responding to baby had nothing to do with him. This looked a lot different when Alex was a baby than it does now, but it's all a version of the same hurt.

Men are very strange creatures for sure.

[Carla Hinkle]

One that that will become clear as your baby grows is that Different Dads Are Different.

Remember when you were a kid? Some dads were the get-down-on-the-floor-and-play-Legos kind. Some were the coach of the baseball team kind. Some were the help with the homework kind. Some were the work a lot, read the paper on the couch kind. My husband's dad never played with him or his brothers a day in his life, I am sure, but as adults they have a great relationship. My dad was a doctor who worked *constantly* and was on call all the time. But when he was home he helped a lot with homework, played hide and seek, and when I was older and played sports he was the dad that was there at *every game*.

I often think back to a quote by Donald Rumsfeld (stay with me here!). "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have."

You parent your children with the partner you have. Just because your neighbor's husband changes 5 diapers a day and gives a bottle every night doesn't mean yours is going to. And that is not necessarily bad -- you two just need to figure out what he can help with.

My husband is not very hands on with small babies. (We have 2 kids, 1 and almost 4.) He is much, much better with toddlers and small children. To be honest, he never really did much when either was an infant. The small babies made him nervous and trying to get him to do stuff just led to fights. In the last month or so he has taken on much more with the 1 year old. (1 year seemed a tipping point for both kids with us.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm not such a big fan of the "Just MAKE him help you!" school of thought. That is not always helpful advice. If your partner really loves your son, which it seems like he does, just do your best to try and offer times/chances for them to be together and they will work it out.

*One idea: if your husband is at all susceptible to a financial argument, try this: "I need some breaks from the baby. You can either give me some breaks, or we can hire a babysitter for some periods of time so I can get out." Either choice on this is a win for you! :-)

[Jill]

For me, we renamed the days of the week: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday,... Daddy-day!

I started noticing this same problem after my husband went back to work (he'd stayed home for a week). I realized I went crazy letting him learn while I was around to listen in, jump in, correct him, etc., so I found a Saturday morning yoga class and I left. "Here's a bottle of breastmilk. He might want it in an hour or so. I just diapered him. I'll be home in a few hours. Love you, bye!"

I always came home to a mess, but he was always in control. Part of me felt left out, felt like I was missing something, but really I was giving them something special. Soon after, my husband became Chief Bathtime and now we alternate bedtime jobs and cleaning the kitchen jobs (and neither of us has decided which is harder!).

Now, six years later, my boys love Daddyday mornings. They go with Daddy to the library or hang out playing... and I leave or make myself scarce. Best thing I could have ever done for all of us.

[hedra]

@pnuts mama, I think I was trying to get to what you said. My spin is that I hesitate to say we should give ourselves a break BECAUSE they won't remember. Instead, I believe we should give ourselves a break because we're just SUPPOSED to give ourselves a break - and even the things that are remembered by the outliers (I know I'm highly unusual in the memory department, family trait there), aren't remembered in a way that are relevant much in the ways we'd think as parents. Whether they remember or not is entirely beside the point. We (IMHO) should be entitled to give ourselves a break just because parenting is hard work learned on the fly and by trial and error, and not 'because they won't remember'.

I was trying (without an edit) to say, 'you don't need a brace/support/reason like that to cut yourselves a break as parents - just DO cut yourselves a break.' I think the 'at least they won't remember' is a bulwark against guilt, when guilt isn't even NECESSARY in the first place. It isn't relevant. We mess up. We do, and we will. Or we're just normal variations of normal. One parent bonds fast, another slower. Or both slower than average, or both faster than average, whatever. We have PPD or anxiety or no experience or not enough experience with this particular kind of person. We have issues with our relationships, we have issues with our support systems, we have issues with our identity and role. We're new at parenting, or new at parenting *this* child, and new at parenting this child at *this* age. They're always growing out from under our skills and we're always blowing it a few times on the way to catching up to where they are now.

And all of that is NORMAL. And normal, folks, is optimal. As much as we notice that our world has changed, some things have not. Two thousand years ago, women complained that they hated breastfeeding, or disliked being pregnant, or feared labor. They worried about what they should eat, whether they were a good enough mom, whether the dad would love the baby. The social structures we imagine are idealized golden ages, and they imagined the past in similar glowing tones. What they had is a lot like what we have now in some fundamental ways - 'those kids these days don't know how easy they have it, things aren't like when I grew up, and there's never (EVER) enough support for a new mom' (unless you are high in the power structure). It is always hard somewhere along the line, and while different kinds of things are different, feeling overwhelmed by motherhood and having it affect your relationship and your sense of self are nothing new at all.

And that's fine. And normal, and as I said, normal is optimal. Normal is how we develop as human beings best - with different people in our lives doing things in different ways, with parents who try but aren't superhuman, who love but get angry and frustrated, who make mistakes and try again.

It doesn't *matter* if they'll never remember it or if they will. It does matter that we recognize that these problems are so so so so so normal, and as normal, we needn't beat ourselves up. Try again, sure. Wish for better, seek out more resources, ask for support and help, yes. But no guilt because they might (if they're way on the odd end) remember, and no need to make bulwarks against guilt in hopes that they don't, either. Just let it go, because letting it go is healthy.

*that* is what I was trying to say.

Oh, and trust me, I've had plenty of therapy, and plenty of it has been because of things I didn't remember (I neglected to mention that I remember nothing about my parents getting divorced when I was 2, either). I LOVE therapy. Think therapy is a great thing. Expect my kids will probably need some, and my goal is that they only need some and not scads. ;)

Parenting is hard, and yeah, not remembering early childhood ourselves may be in part nature's way to encourage us to say 'I didn't remember it, they won't, either'. But I think it is more powerful to say 'I'm a parent, parenting is hard, and we don't get it right at the start of each stage, and GOOD HAIRY GOD there are a lot of new stages in the first three years!'

And at the same time, we learn a huge amount with each stage, too. It's hard to remember that, sometimes. And I find that sometimes parents say 'why do I need to really do X/Y/Z because they're not going to remember it, anyway?' And no, most of them won't remember it, except as odd snapshot moments or family stories. And yes, the stuff is still in there in our psyches somewhere, though not in the form we'd expect most of the time. Much like the negative stuff, it is processed differently than we imagine as adults looking back. Not bad, but just different.

I find myself watching my kids doing things I don't know if they'll remember (the eldest didn't inherit my long memory, it seems). So why do I work so hard at this stuff if it might not be remembered? I do it for the same reason I cut myself some slack, because it has to do with the moment, my sense of self, my understanding of my child, my ideals and goals as a parent, and probably somebody's research somewhere that I read at some point.

We have more permission to do things 'fun/nice' that they won't remember, at least. But in both cases, whether they remember or not is irrelevant. What's important is that we're being true to our goals, *and* true to the reality that parenting is really freaking challenging work being performed by normal people with normal resources and normal relationships, with all their history and baggage jammed in alongside. And that this is okay. It's really more of the 'you are the best parent for your child' - just down at the micro-level. You, warts and all, are the best parent for your child. Whether they remember those first three years or not.

[Cecily T]

Hmm...the comments on this are just about played out, but I have to say it's Clara's that resonated with me. We are in the same place, DD is only 6 months, but is *very* active and hands-on. I get so depressed every morning when I come down from showering and do morning chores to find the bean watching Sesame St while DH is on the computer. Then, she's cranky by the time I get to eat bfast and DH goes to work. At night he 'cares' for her while I clean up dinner (he cooks) but he hovers in the kitchen and just carries her around like a sack of flour, or watches TV (his shows, not hers). Meanwhile I'm playing airplane, bouncy, puppets, peek-a-boo. I'm so frustrated and resentful that I feel like she's not really being taken care of, but I sooo need a break from peek-a-boo sometimes!

[Cecily T]

Oops...didn't see the second page! Obviously, this is still an active discussion. I only meant that I thought people would be moving on to today's post, but I'm delighted that we are still talking here (I don't delurk very often.)

[Amy]

My husband got this book as a gift when our son was born:

http://www.amazon.com/Be-Prepared-Practical-Handbook-Dads/dp/0743251547/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201239733&sr=1-1

It's written like an old boy scout manual and is divided into chapters based on the baby's age, covering the basics of what to expect at each stage and ideas for games and activities to do. It's easy to read, not intimidating at all, lots of fun, and has great info. It's so incredibly cute to see DH trying the things he read about.

Definitely worth checking out for your partner to read!

[rebecca]

Since naptime is almost over I don't have time right now to finish reading everything, however, I second Hedra's comment about having a task. It doesn't mean that it will ALWAYS be necessary to have the task, but it helps grease the wheels to improvisation. My husband has always been the dinner guy. Since we started solids, he's been the one to feed the little man. We usually bathe the baby together (since an adult in the regular tub with the baby is easier than the mess from the baby tub). Daddy is also the king of getting the baby back to sleep when he wakes up. He can do it in seconds, where if it's mommy, that means nursing and play and who knows what else.

This means that daddy has learned that he has special skills, and also learned how to make up games, and is building the skills that are the daddy version of spidey sense (instead of being in the same room web surfing).

Good luck.

[Abigail]

"I don't have time to read all the other comments in depth as my DH is making me dinner (I know - I'm showing off!!) so apologies if I repeat what has already been said."

Why is it showing off? Own that shit. You married an adult. Why do people tell me I'm lucky that my husband is so involved with our son and has been since the day he was born, since before he was born? It's not luck. I chose an enlightened man.

I'm sorry but this thread is really pissing me off. Yeah it is hard for men. It is hard for women too! Having a uterus doesn't make us automatically have some secret magic connection with our children.

Why should men get cookies and special praise for what women have done forever, for no pay and little gratitude? Of course it is more fun when the baby has a personality, but we're talking about grown up men here who shouldn't require that their children be entertaining before they care for them.

[Anon, again]

@Abigail - while I *completely* agree with you in spirit, it was a brutal shock to me when the feminist guy I married seemed to fall down the rabbit hole to 1964 when our daughter was born. (As I said in my earlier post, I think his behavioral changes are due to depression, only partially related to the arrival of a new, helpless little person.) It's hard for any of us to predict how we're going to respond to a major life change - I could never have predicted the particular turn of events I find myself struggling with. I could see myself saying something along the lines of "you're so lucky" to another mother just out of my own envy and frustration that the division of childcare my husband and I agreed upon has yet to materialize.

[Susannah]

@hedra: you made me really cry with your comment. Thank you so much for your wisdom and perspective, and the reminder that lovingkindness includes ourselves. I am going to print and keep that one for the rougher days.

In a funny way, many of your posts really come down to what Abigail just said: "own that shit". So empowering. Thank you.

[Amanda]

I'm coming to this late but THANK YOU ABIGAIL. I don't think we should congratulate men for doing things like cooking dinner and changing diapers. So much pressure is put on women to do it all--pressure from society, from within the family, and from within themselves--that treating normal helpful and marital behavior as "extra" or "special" reinforces that crappy double standard that we keep working so hard to change.

If my husband didn't cook, clean and share the child-raising with me 50/50 (some days might be 20/80, others 80/20), I would have divorced him. Period.

[L.]

I'm late with this, but if anyone's still reading I just wanted to throw one more thing in. In my postpartum support group (I didn't have PPD but felt I was at risk) I found that a lot of women had conflicted feelings or resentment about their husband's roles (or lack thereof) but, when they described the situation, it became apparent that they hadn't talked to the partner about these feelings. A lot of times it really didn't seem to occur to them. Partly, I think, because our societal roles as women teach us to NOT speak out about uncomfortable things, to NOT rock the boat, to NOT ask for what we need. A couple of them consciously started trying to state what they needed and, while it didn't solve the problem, it definitely helped.

So my thought is that the questioner may need to go into more depth with her husband about what she needs him to do. "Husband, you just played with the baby for five minutes, but I need you to play with him for thirty minutes." "I would like you to spend more time with the baby, at least an hour a day. Look at how much his face lights up when you are with him. And can you see that he is so sad when you put him down so quickly?" "I need you to take him and really interact with him for an hour. Here are some things I do with him that you can try." "I changed the last diaper. Please do the next one." "I really need to get of the house before I go stir crazy. Can you please take care of Baby until 3:00?" And so on. The idea is just to put it out there simply and clearly, with as little negativity as possible, in order to make sure you have said it--and then keep on saying it, as necessary. You could use this approach in tandem with many others suggested here, of course!

[Lynda]

Well, you girls all sound so lucky. And your solutions r great. All I can offer is understanding for your situation Kell.

Despite my encouragement and my 'i dont care how you do it - just do it' attitude, my man has not once bathed our 9 month old daughter, read her a story or put her to bed. I think he has changed 7 diapers and only this weekedn had to feed her lunch whilst I had my hair cut. He has limited patience or understanding to calm her and when she cries at 4 am his solution, if I allowed him to implement it, is to sternly tell her to 'cut it out and go back to sleep!! Yep, that works - NOT. And she is in the teething zone right now!!

When she was 6 mnths old we travelled to my family on the opposite side of the world, a 36 hour trip door to door - he refused to walk the aisle of the plane with her to entertain her and give me a break. I was so exhausted when we reached our desitnation that I was ill.

Having said that, in the last 2 months I can see that he has finally fallen in love with her and she with him. I just adore to see them spending time together. He never gives her much time, even on the weekend but believe me anythime, how ever they spend it, is good enough for me.

As far as any 'hands on' duties go, it seems I'm out of luck on that one. For 9 months I have been the caregiver 24/7, not even in the weekend does he think to get up early with her at 6am and let me sleep in or shower in peace. I do 99% of the chores required to keep the household running.

Yet apparently Dad feels like he is at the end of the list, working a 12 hour day and financially providing for the family is responsibility enough AND
presumably for his social purposes, I need to get my feet on the ground about this feeding and nap schedule thing (which actually, I operate 'on demand')

So, is it possible to ever enable a man like this to 'get it'?? I have spent some time on it and think it is their responsibility to step up to the plate and participate 100% as a Dad, not ours. You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink. I say just continue to be the fantastic mother you are and aspire to be.

[WholesaleShoescncn]

Dear Sir or Madam:
wholesaleshoescn Global Trade Co.,LTD.is top nike shoes wholesale company, As a big nike cheap shoes wholesale design company,We Sale and wholesale nike shoes from our nike factory to the global nike shop & nike store, We sale and wholesale nike shoes as following: nke air max, nike Shox, nike air jordans, nike air dunks, air jordans, nike air force 1, nike air dunkss,nike air force one, nike stocks shoes, nike air max shoes, nike trainers, nike sneakers, nike running shoes, nike basketball shoes, nike discount shoes, nike cheap shoes, footwear, sports shoes,nike walking shoes, nike training shoes, retro nike shoes, cheap nike shoes,wholesale nike shoes,nike air force 1s one xxv 25th,nike dunks,nike air jordans,nike Shox,nike shocks,nike Shox,nz,r4,ride,turbo,monster,nike air max,air max tn plus,360,rift,brand shoes,wholesale nike shoes,custom nike shoes,air force 1s,jordans,dunks,max,Shox,Jeans,cheap jordans,jordan sneakers,cheap nike sb,wholesale bags,Hoodies,adidas,puma,gucci,t-shirt,wholesale jordans,wholesale nikes,wholesale nike shoes,nike air force 1s one xxv 25th,nike dunks,jordan sneakers,nike wholesale,wholesale air force ones,wholesale air jordans,
wholesale nike air force 1s,wholesale af1,wholesale air force ones,cheap nike sb,
wholesale nike shoe dunk,wholesale dunk,wholesale dunks,wholesale nike air dunk,wholesale air dunk,wholesale air dunks,adidas shoes forum,nike adidas shoes,adidas-shoes china,adidas shoes in usa,sell adidas shoes,adidas y3 shoes,adidas kid shoes ,authentic jordan shoes,women jordan shoes,kids jordan shoes,custom jordan shoes,jordan shoes for sale,jordan release dates,foot locker,nice kicks, nike shoes,nike shoes forum,nike shoes b2b,buy nike shoes,nike shoes shop,prada shoes uk,prada sport shoes,prada trainers,gucci shoes,cheap jordans, nike dunks, wholesale jordans, shoes,prada footwear,jimmy choo, customize vans shoes,customize soccer shoes,customize jordan shoes,customize air force ones,customize shirts,customize kicks,adidas,cheap jordans,wholesale nikes,
air max 90,nike air max,nike air max 90,air max shoes forum,air max 360 ,
air max 1,nike air max 360,air max 180,nike air max 360,nike air max 180, nike dunks, wholesale air force ones,cheap sneakers,jordan sneakers,
china shoes brand,brand shoes forum,brand shoes,nike-brand-shoes,top brand shoes , name brand shoes,air max shoes,laptop bags,bags for men,beach bags,gym bags, nike dunks, wholesale air force ones,wholesale air jordans, cheap sneakers,
promotional bags,prada bags,diaper bags,cosmetic bags,nike dunks,wholesale nikes,
nike air force max,nike air force,nike air force 1,nike air force 25,nike air force xxv ,nike air force one,nike air force 90 ap,nike air force 90 , wholesale nike shoes air jordans,wholesale nike jordans,wholesale air jordans,wholesale air jordans 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 , wholesale nike shoes air max,wholesale nike air max,wholesale air max,wholesale max,wholesale max 90 180 95 360 tn ltd womens,wholesale nike air Shox,wholesale air Shox,wholesale nike air Shox r3,r4,r5,nz,womens,turob
wholesale nike air jordans,nike Shox,nike shocks,nike Shox ,nz,r4,ride,turbo,monster, nike air max,air max tn
wholesale nike Shox tl,nz,r4,ride,turbo,monster,nike air max,air max tn plus,360,rift,brand shoes,adidas,puma,prada,lv,gucci,bape,red monkey
wholesale,adidas,puma,prada,lv,gucci,bape,red monkey Jeans,children,timberland,brand Hoodies,bape,bbc,evisu,lrg,polo,ed hardy,bags,gucci,lv,chloe,juicy,coach,fedi,chanel,Jeans,redmonkey,bape,evisu,bbc,seven,D&g,antik,lrg,gunit,akademikes,women shoes,men shes,nike women shoes, nike Kids shoes,wholesale air force ones,wholesale air jordans,
nike Child shoes,nike girls shoes, nike boys shoes,nike dunk women low premium,air max 95 exclusive,china wholesale low af1 shoes sneakers,nike air force xxv high 07,lv nike europe
wholesale nike jordans,wholesale air jordans,wholesale jordans,wholesale air jordans,wholesale jordans, nike shoes, authentic nike shoes, clear nike shoes.Brand shoes wholesale nike, adidas, puma, prada, timberland, gucci,bape sta, baping ape sta.
we keep updating latest styles and stocks every day, if there are on the stocks,drop shipping business is also welcome; At the same time, we also accept small order to satisfy all cheapers. One pair or piece is the mini order for all our goods.
If you are interested in our products, dont hesitate to contact us:
pls link google search
http:// www.wholesaleshoescn.com
(http WWW wholesaleshoesCN COM )

Dear Sir or Madam:
wholesaleshoescn Global Trade Co.,LTD.is top nike shoes wholesale company, As a big nike cheap shoes wholesale design company,We Sale and wholesale nike shoes from our nike factory to the global nike shop & nike store, We sale and wholesale nike shoes as following: nke air max, nike Shox, nike air jordans, nike air dunks, air jordans, nike air force 1, nike air dunkss,nike air force one, nike stocks shoes, nike air max shoes, nike trainers, nike sneakers, nike running shoes, nike basketball shoes, nike discount shoes, nike cheap shoes, footwear, sports shoes,nike walking shoes, nike training shoes, retro nike shoes, cheap nike shoes,wholesale nike shoes,nike air force 1s one xxv 25th,nike dunks,nike air jordans,nike Shox,nike shocks,nike Shox,nz,r4,ride,turbo,monster,nike air max,air max tn plus,360,rift,brand shoes,wholesale nike shoes,custom nike shoes,air force 1s,jordans,dunks,max,Shox,Jeans,cheap jordans,jordan sneakers,cheap nike sb,wholesale bags,Hoodies,adidas,puma,gucci,t-shirt,wholesale jordans,wholesale nikes,wholesale nike shoes,nike air force 1s one xxv 25th,nike dunks,jordan sneakers,nike wholesale,wholesale air force ones,wholesale air jordans,
wholesale nike air force 1s,wholesale af1,wholesale air force ones,cheap nike sb,
wholesale nike shoe dunk,wholesale dunk,wholesale dunks,wholesale nike air dunk,wholesale air dunk,wholesale air dunks,adidas shoes forum,nike adidas shoes,adidas-shoes china,adidas shoes in usa,sell adidas shoes,adidas y3 shoes,adidas kid shoes ,authentic jordan shoes,women jordan shoes,kids jordan shoes,custom jordan shoes,jordan shoes for sale,jordan release dates,foot locker,nice kicks, nike shoes,nike shoes forum,nike shoes b2b,buy nike shoes,nike shoes shop,prada shoes uk,prada sport shoes,prada trainers,gucci shoes,cheap jordans, nike dunks, wholesale jordans, shoes,prada footwear,jimmy choo, customize vans shoes,customize soccer shoes,customize jordan shoes,customize air force ones,customize shirts,customize kicks,adidas,cheap jordans,wholesale nikes,
air max 90,nike air max,nike air max 90,air max shoes forum,air max 360 ,
air max 1,nike air max 360,air max 180,nike air max 360,nike air max 180, nike dunks, wholesale air force ones,cheap sneakers,jordan sneakers,
china shoes brand,brand shoes forum,brand shoes,nike-brand-shoes,top brand shoes , name brand shoes,air max shoes,laptop bags,bags for men,beach bags,gym bags, nike dunks, wholesale air force ones,wholesale air jordans, cheap sneakers,
promotional bags,prada bags,diaper bags,cosmetic bags,nike dunks,wholesale nikes,
nike air force max,nike air force,nike air force 1,nike air force 25,nike air force xxv ,nike air force one,nike air force 90 ap,nike air force 90 , wholesale nike shoes air jordans,wholesale nike jordans,wholesale air jordans,wholesale air jordans 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 , wholesale nike shoes air max,wholesale nike air max,wholesale air max,wholesale max,wholesale max 90 180 95 360 tn ltd womens,wholesale nike air Shox,wholesale air Shox,wholesale nike air Shox r3,r4,r5,nz,womens,turob
wholesale nike air jordans,nike Shox,nike shocks,nike Shox ,nz,r4,ride,turbo,monster, nike air max,air max tn
wholesale nike Shox tl,nz,r4,ride,turbo,monster,nike air max,air max tn plus,360,rift,brand shoes,adidas,puma,prada,lv,gucci,bape,red monkey
wholesale,adidas,puma,prada,lv,gucci,bape,red monkey Jeans,children,timberland,brand Hoodies,bape,bbc,evisu,lrg,polo,ed hardy,bags,gucci,lv,chloe,juicy,coach,fedi,chanel,Jeans,redmonkey,bape,evisu,bbc,seven,D&g,antik,lrg,gunit,akademikes,women shoes,men shes,nike women shoes, nike Kids shoes,wholesale air force ones,wholesale air jordans,
nike Child shoes,nike girls shoes, nike boys shoes,nike dunk women low premium,air max 95 exclusive,china wholesale low af1 shoes sneakers,nike air force xxv high 07,lv nike europe
wholesale nike jordans,wholesale air jordans,wholesale jordans,wholesale air jordans,wholesale jordans, nike shoes, authentic nike shoes, clear nike shoes.Brand shoes wholesale nike, adidas, puma, prada, timberland, gucci,bape sta, baping ape sta.
we keep updating latest styles and stocks every day, if there are on the stocks,drop shipping business is also welcome; At the same time, we also accept small order to satisfy all cheapers. One pair or piece is the mini order for all our goods.
If you are interested in our products, dont hesitate to contact us:
pls link google search
http:// www.wholesaleshoescn.com
(http WWW wholesaleshoesCN COM )

[Test]

yo good stuff man, ur right these are the best LeBrons .i wasnt feelin the first 6 dont like zooms but now i got 6 pair of these .this pair u sheowd, the midnight navy, the Xmas edition, the white red, the red carpets, and the all black check out my vids if u dont know me, I also got 100+ Jordans crazy OG heat no 2009 shit all classics

[Karo]

What I love about your vids, is that you are always happy and in a good mood. My fariovte part of your reviews is when you actually wear them on your feet. That is where it really counts! Keep up the good work!