Surviving Secondary Infertility?

Yesterday I found out that my friend B is going in today for a D&C. The baby stopped growing at 10 weeks. This is her fourth pregnancy, and she has one child.

I just feel so sad for her. I really thought the miscarriage/D&C/loathing-her-body/frozen-smile-when-other-people-announce-their-pregnancies stage of her life was over. She should have been able to relax as soon as she hit 8 weeks.

And my other friend's friend, C, just lost a baby at 10 weeks, too. She got pregnant easily with her 3-year-old, and had no complications. Then last year she lost a baby at 20 weeks. Genetic problems--a fluke. So why is she back on the roller coaster again with this fresh loss?

For those of you who have been there in secondary infertility hell, how did you make it through? For those of you still in it, what's the worst part? How do you maintain hope?

Comments

[SarcastiCarrie]

My flavor of infertility is not pregnancy loss, but I would say the hardest part about secondary infertility is knowing what you are missing.

With primary infertility, I had a vague sense of what I did not have. But, this second time around, I know what I don't have. And, I have my son around reminding me that he doesn't have a sibling (other than the cat) and that he is sweet and cuddly and scruptious and wonderful.

With primary infertility, it is pretty easy to avoid kids and babies and people with kids and babies. But, with secondary infertility, you are the person with the kid.

[Shelley]

Heavens, Moxie, your friend B and I are in the exact same boat. I've had four pregnancies too -- #1, very early m/c, "chemical"; #2, delightful, cherished, beautiful daughter, now 4-y-o; #3, D&C, child stopped growing at about 10 weeks, discovered ad 12 weeks, in 2005; finally got brave enough to try #4, which turned out to be an identical scenario to #3, D&C the day after Thanksgiving, 2007.

For me, I never really believed pregnancy #4 was going to work out -- was surprised every time I got good news (heartbeat! appropriate growth!) at the doc's. I don't know if this was remarkably prescient on my part, or just an attempt to protect myself. Probably some combination of both. So when the bad news came at the nuchal, I was shocked in the way that you are when you get life-trajectory-changing news, but not surprised. In a way I feel I've done a lot of my grieving about this in advance. (I have two blood clotting mutations, but the docs don't think this was at fault. Chromosomes on first apparently normal, don't yet have results on the second).

At this point, at almost-39, the idea of attempting another pregnancy holds NO appeal whatsoever. Medically I have no idea when I could feel confident in a new pregnancy, and emotionally I don't think I ever would. But for some women, trying again may be exactly what they want to do.

So. For anyone who's trying to support a friend through this, here's my experience. When I talk to friends about what's happened, what I want them to say to me is something along these lines: you've been through hell. This must have been horrible for you. I'm so sorry. Then, after they ask or I tell them how I feel about the future, I want them to say: I hear you. I understand that you don't want to try again. I don't blame you. You have a wonderful daughter -- she's beautiful, and if you only are going to get one she's a perfect one to get. In short, I want friends to say they're with me, they're sad with me, they love my daughter and me, and that they support my decision, and will support my decision if I change my mind. I would imagine any woman in my shoes would want to hear some variation on that, regardless of what their decision is on what to do next.

I do NOT want to hear anything negative about only children, that I should consider adoption, or that I should buck up and try again, that it was a fluke and won't happen again. (For the record, adoption is not off the table, but it is a huge undertaking emotionally, financially and in every other way, and I don't want to go into that without a lot of careful consideration -- wouldn't be fair to anyone involved.)

[Jennic]

I'm so sorry to hear about your friends Moxie. I hope they will find peace.. sometime...

I lost our 2nd baby at 8 weeks. It was not nearly as bad as so many other women out there, but the pain was still very real and raw. I'm even reluctant to post this because it's so not a big deal compared to some. It was a much wanted baby (which babies aren't!?) and we were devastated. It almost felt worse than when they told me about the Hodgkin's lymphoma 4 years prior.

The only way I got back some sanity and control of my feelings and emotions was when I gave birth to our daughter nearly a year later. (I had bright red bleeding for 3 months) I just never felt safe until I was holding her in my arms..

This emotional (and physical) roller coaster is one fucking bitch to be on. I'm so sorry.

[Suzanne]

I had primary infertility and actually probably will have secondary infertility too when we try to conceive child #2 next year. My daughter, born 6 months ago, was my third pregnancy: #1 was chemical, #2 was miscarriage at 7 weeks. My successful pregnancy was also my third IVF cycle. There were honestly times when I felt like I had no hope but one of the things that got me through was my mother. She cried with me when things went wrong but she never for one second gave up hope. Though I'm a lapsed Catholic, the novenas my mother started for every cycle were some comfort, I figured my mother going to church every day and praying for me and lighting a candle to the mother of perpetual hope couldn't hurt.

One of the worst parts of infertility is dealing with the insensitivity of even your closest friends and family. When I was having my miscarriage my BEST friend told me that her friend who wasn't quite divorced and accidentally got pregnant by her new boyfriend and had an abortion said the bleeding wasn't that bad. Like that was supposed to be some source of comfort???

For me maintaining hope was also selectively filtering success stories - I sought out stories of people who went to my clinic or people I knew who had been through infertility and had a happy ending.

To you "relax" comment, mothers who have been through infertility or loss don't relax until they are walking out of the hospital with a live child.

[Melissa]

My sister lost hers at 10 or 11 weeks and now I feel horribly guilty sending her pictures of her 16 month old niece (my daughter). I never thought I'd have to hesitate sending out photos but I just never know what is going to cause her pain.

I am glad this is a topic on Moxie today, I could use the advice on things to say or not to say. I want to offer comfort but I already know that saying "it will be okay" doesn't help and "you should just relax about it" should earn you a kick in the teeth.

My heart goes out to all parents who have lost one or who are having trouble conceiving.

[Megan]

Had my first miscarriage at 10 weeks, then my beautiful DS, now 2, then another miscarriage at 11 weeks. We're trying again now. Miscarriage the 2nd time around (both miscarriages I opted for a natural process rather than a D&C) was very difficult physically.

Advice for those close to someone whom has miscarried...do not say any of the following (all of which I heard at one point or another):

"You can try again!"
"You probably weren't attached to the baby yet."
"It happens to a lot of women."
"You wouldn't want a deformed baby...this is nature's way of preventing that."

DO say this:

"I'm so sorry. That must be very painful for you both. May I do anything?"

Hugs to all of you who go through this. It's very difficult and sad.

Megan

[caramama]

I'm so sorry to hear about your friends, Moxie.

I agree with Suzanne. Most women are able to relax once they are past the first 8 weeks or even first trimester, but I think most who have have infertility and/or miscarriage just can't ever really relax until they walk out of the hospital with their child.

I also agree with Shelley and Megan in what women want to hear. We had primary infertility and are hoping to not go through secondary infertility, but we are starting to prepare for it. What I do NOT want to hear is anything about just relaxing so it will happen or people "knowing" it will happen for us, especially since we were able to (finally) have our first. Just sympathy and support. "I'm so sorry. Is there anything I can do?" is ideal.

Also, people should assume they don't know the whole story about others who are trying to conceive and not try to convince someone about what they should do unless they are in the know, whether this is how many to have or the timing of having them.

A final thing I wanted to add was that having to have a D&C for the miscarriage was rough, and women deal with it in different ways. I suggest not mention pregnancies right around the time and also offer to do/get things for the person. It was hard for me physically and very tough emotionally, and I didn't want to talk to anyone for a few days. People gave me space, but also let me know they were there. It's a hard balance to find, but you can always ask the person what they need.

[BPE]

I just had my first miscarriage at 5 wks after a completely normal first pregnancy and healthy now one year old boy. I agree with what someone already said about knowing what you are missing. Add to that my sister's announcement that she was pregnant on the day the bleeding started and this has been the hardest experience of my life, without question. In my head I know that the odds are good that this was just a fluke, but I will not feel safe with another pregnancy until I deliver a healthy baby.

[Shelley]

Sorry, me again... can't seem to stay away from this topic today, as this is so much on my mind right now.

"Also, people should assume they don't know the whole story about others who are trying to conceive and not try to convince someone about what they should do unless they are in the know, whether this is how many to have or the timing of having them."

HEAR, HEAR, Caramama. People should NEVER assume anything about anyone else's reproductive situations -- you never know.

Also, I totally agree that these are NOT helpful things to say: "It was nature's way -- there was probably something terribly wrong with it." In my case, that may be true, but maybe not -- the chromosomes told a different story in my 2nd m/c, still waiting to hear about the 3rd. Regardless, this is not helpful to hear -- in many cases, yes, there was something wrong with the fetus. But regardless, this thought does not make the loss less painful.

"Miscarriage is really common." Well, after you've heard a heartbeat, it's actually NOT common, and that comment minimizes the loss and puts me in the position of having to explain the medical facts, which sucks. And even if the loss was earlier, before a heartbeat was established, the fact that early miscarriage is relatively common doesn't make it less heartbreaking.

[robin]

I miscarried my first pregnancy at 9 weeks. 4 months later we were pregnant again but I never felt I could enjoy the pregnancy, I was always so terrified something would go wrong. My son is almost 7 months now but it is hard to look back on pregnancy with any fondness since I remember it being so full of anxiety and a low-grade dread. I wonder if I will feel the same way the next time around.

Last week I learned my friend had lost her baby at 31 weeks in utero. I am struggling a lot with how to be there for her. They are in another state and she plans to wait out the delivery process until it happens naturally. They have a 2.5 yo little girl and I've wanted to send a package their way, but what to include is eluding me. My heart is just breaking for their family but I just don't know what to do.

[sue]

@Robin - what a horrifying situation! Your poor friend must be terrified to leave the house for fear of well-wishers. If you knit or sew, something warm and cuddly to wrap herself in (a shawl? a small quilt? heck, even mittens) and if you already had a gift for the baby (if it was a handmade heirloom type of thing, not just onesies or somethingpractical) I would go ahead and send it. I know I would want something to acknowledge my child as a person and member of the family, even if I just kept it in a drawer and looked at it on anniversaries.

My situation is #1 - miscarriage at 7 weeks, #2 miscarriage at 10 weeks, D&C (no known cause for either), #3 healthy beatiful daughter, now 3 yrs, #4 was told the baby had died at 11 weeks based on an erroneaous ultrasound - now have a gorgeous 9mo boy. Needless to say, it was very difficult to enjoy either pregnancy! I was SO incredibly blessed that my son was/is still alive, and that I didn't have a miscarriage with the 4th pregnancy, but I've hd a small taste of what secondary infertility would have been like. And it's not a fun place. no advice, just sympathy.

[CJ]

I had to chime in - I'm 11 weeks in. We'd been trying since my miscarriage 2 years ago, and everyone's comment about dread and near-paranoia, even after all this time, really resonates. After I had my miscarriage, I was emotionally and physically wrecked, and it took a lot of isolation to recover. What helped? Someone else said it and it was true for me too - my mom. She said nothing banal, she did nothing but be present and make hot meals and take the pressure off me and my partner, and I never once got the impression she had made any judgement call, which I really find remarkable.

The doctor says everything's fine, but it seems impossible to believe. We're worried, especially right now, since this is when the last miscarriage inexplicably occurred, and I feel like I'll always be this worried. It seems to be a very empty area - my OB doesn't really have any interest in my emotional state, and there's nothing physically to do but wait for the next ultrasound. We haven't even really told people, in case it all happens again, which makes the experience even more lonely. Many apologies if I'm slightly off-topic, but I'm glad other people are talking about it, at least.

[Shandra]

Well I'll be reading because one of my big hesitations about trying for another child is around the thought of dealing with more infertility issues.

It actually does seem harder with my live son than it did to go for it after my daughter died. (And although I grieved the miscarriages, /for me/ - not talking about anyone else - those sort of were softer and paler in comparison by a factor of quite a lot.)

I think it's not just because I would know what I was missing, but also because I feel like I only just barely made it through his pregnancy - buoyed a bit by the numbness of grief. I'm not really sure how I would manage another round of either bad things OR waiting for bad things AND maintain my equilibrium as a parent.

If I were to experience a loss with a child, I think babysitting would help me the most - a bit of space to go recover in my own adult way.

For solidarity my stats are: #1: miscarriage at 9 weeks; #2: chemical; #3: 7 weeks; #4 chemical, #5 chemical, #6: 7 weeks; #7: 9 weeks, D&C. 5 year gap here. #8: full time & cord accident at birth resulting in perinatal loss, #9: over 2 now... when does the relaxing start? Although somewhere around a year I started breathing again.

[Julie]

As someone who can sometimes say the wrong thing with the best of intentions....I have learned to say "I am so sorry. Here are some ways I have thought of to support you.... Which ones would help you the most?" Then I provide a laundry list of ways I can support from taking them out to lunch once a week to keeping my distance, and all the variations in between....and they are able to tell me which are most comfortable for them. Everyone deals with grief in their own way, and often it's hard for them to verbalize what they need or want - nor should they have to do that kind of thinking at a difficult time.

[Shelley]

Shandra, I'm so sorry for all you've been through -- stillbirth must be so very, very painful. My heart goes out to you.

Moxie, I've been thinking about this a lot -- in terms of pregnancy loss, what is the worst part of it. I wouldn't say this was the worst, but it was definitely unexpected and truly hard to deal with -- feeling anything remotely positive about no longer being pregnant. For example, enjoying relief from pregnancy-related nausea while grieving the loss, thinking of travel next summer that wouldn't have been possible with a newborn and grieving the loss -- the list goes on, and while these small positive things in no way made up for the losses, even noticing or thinking about them felt terrible, as though I was happy about the overall situation or would have wished for it to turn out that way. It really messed with my mind. After the first late first-trimester loss especially, these feelings resulted in a big steaming pile of guilt on top of the grief.

[ImpostorMom]

I have not personally lost a pregnancy but I know several people that have and my heart really goes out to your friends.

I listened to a podcast recently about a book that may be helpful. The book was called To Full Term. The book's site is http://tofullterm.com/ and the podcast was Manic Mommies.

[Jan]

I had two miscarriages (#1 blighted ovum, egg sac growth stopped at 5 weeks, #2 totally healthy hunky-dory at 8 weeks, no heartbeat at 10 weeks) before I had my kiddos (the second one turned out to be caused by a fixable uterine deformation which was fixed and I haven't had further problems ... knock wood) and I agree with SarcastiCarrie about knowing what you're missing. I remember when I was pregnant with my son (second kid, fourth pregnancy) thinking that I really didn't know if I would be able to cope with a loss, knowing what I would be missing out on. With the first losses, I was angry and afraid, but I didn't really know what I was losing.

As far as what to say: I always tell people about my brother, who simply sent me an email that said, "I love you. I'm so sorry." And I'm here to tell you that five year and two babies later, I have a catch in my throat thinking of how exactly right was. There really is nothing else that needs to be said.

I felt like I got lots of nice support right after my miscarriages, but that people pretty quickly seemed to forget about it. With any kind of loss, really, it's especially wonderful if someone close asks how you're doing a couple of months down the road.

So here are my specific suggestions:

When you first hear: An email saying "I love you and I'm sorry." or a hug and "I'm so sorry".

A couple of weeks later: "How are things going?" If you can get the tone right, this is perfect, because if the person wants to talk about it, it gives her an opening. If she doesn't want to talk about it, she can talk about something else and it isn't awkward for her like she's ignoring your question.

Oh, and another thing: Please please don't offer to be available to talk if you're going to be awkward and uncomfortable and upset by talk about it. I needed to unload the details and even though she wanted to be that person for me, my Mom, for example, couldn't do it. If I hadn't had the internet to unload on, I don't know what I would have done.

Wait, I have more! Please don't forget the dad in all this. Nothing made me more angry than the people who kept telling my husband (who, hello, also lost a baby) to take extra care of me. I mean, yes, but also ... no. He was actually hit much harder by the first miscarriage than I was.

Just ... keep it simple, is all. Please don't say NOTHING, but there's no need to say any more than "I'm so sorry." If you've been there, saying, "I've been there, and it's awful" is plenty. If you're comfortable doing so, "If you need to talk ..." works.

Please for the love of God, avoid:

"Next time don't go running around on your horse!"
"I don't know whether to say congratulations, or I'm sorry! [since the pregnancy was unplanned]"
"Oh no! That was my grandbaby!" <-- not my mom, please note
"Oh. Well, then, are you going to be able to [xxx family obligation] after all, then?"

All real examples.

I'm so sorry for your friends, Moxie. I've been there and it sucks.

[Michelle]

I find one of the hardest things about secondary infertility (besides emotional) is bringing my 4 yr old daughter to my appts. I need bloodwork done everyother day before 9 am, and I need to bring her for those appts, and the looks I get in the waiting room!! OH MY! I don't bring her unless I really have to and some people need to realize that seconday infertility is just as hard as primary. So if you're in the RE's office, and there's a kid, please, please, no dirty looks!

[Jaime]

I know the looks. I also know the sad looks. They're even worse. I've had five pregnancies and have three children at home. We lost our second at 12 weeks. Our fourth died a few hours after she was born. Our fifth is currently playing with the computer speakers.

There's no magic. You just keep getting up every day for the ones you have. Hopefully that's enough.

[Slim]

How did I make it through? Awkwardly. Painfully. The best thing was people who let me be a total mess, and unfortunately most people tried to get me to see things differently.
I was eventually a treatment success, which helped me have a little forbearance when confronted with the various idiocies and insensitivities that were sent my way.
I don't have any advice on how to get through it gracefully, because I did not. But for all of you who are in the thick of it, or who have reached some sort of conclusion you still find painful, I am sorry. It just sucks.

[Karen]

I had 3 miscarriages before my son (now 2.5) was born, and have had 2 since then in an effort to have kid #2. With secondary infertility, the worst part for me is that everyone casually asks, "So, are you going to have another?" I just grit my teeth and say, "We're talking about it." The way my husband looks at it makes the most sense to me: Until someone tells me I *can't* have another baby, we keep trying. That's what gives me hope. How do you cope? You grieve, you take stock, you count your blessings, and you move on, like anything else.

[Michelle]

I don't have any advice - just wanted to say that my heart goes out to your friends Moxie and are suffering with infertility or loss.

It took a long time for me to get pregnant with my first child (we were actually undergoing the first round of infertility testing when I found out I was expecting). I have been so very blessed to have had two healthy pregnancies now though. But far too many of my friends have suffered repeated miscarriages or years of infertility. I have found that words are grossly inadequate in these situations and that the best thing I can do for them is listen, make some tea, and be there (physically, emotionally, etc) whenever they need me.

[AmyinMotown]

I went through primary infertility and not really secondary infertility--I mean, it took awhile and we were just gearing up to maybe do a little treatment again, but eight months of half-assed trying is NOTHING in infertility world so this really feels like a surprise pregnancy.

I feel really gratfeful to everybody for sharing their experiences, and validated too since my standard response to infertility, miscarriage etc. is "I am so sorry this is happening to you. That sucks, and it's totally unfair." With an added side dish of "we saw this RE and they SUCKED, and we did Resolve (the infertility support group) and it really helped" if it's infertility that the person is facing and they know what we went through. I also send them to the infertility blogosphere if I think they are sufficiently snarky.

When I was going through it every damn person I know was having a baby and there was so much attention focused on that, so people who would just simply ASK how things were going meant a lot to me, like we mattered too even though we didn't have kids. What didn't was people who had An Opinion, about anything really, but about the causes and treatment of infertility especially (since I ALWAYS knoew more than they did about it in the first place). Or you know "I read this article/knew this person/had this vision about something and have you tried that???"

[CN]

My mom had a miscarriage right before conceiving me. I would not be here if things worked out differently for my sibling that never will be.

It was hard for my mother, but she and I are great friends. I'm her, "but if...then I wouldn't have..." She still (at 65) mourns the loss a little -- you never fully forget.

Hugs to everyone. I can't imagine, but I've seen the sadness. So hugs.

[julie.k]

It's hard. My first pregnancy was so easy - got pregnant in 2 tries, super perfect pregnancy and all-natural delivery, etc. Decided to try again when little boy turned two, got pregnant again almost as soon as started trying (we use NFP/FAM) and then miscarried (at home) around 9-10 weeks. This was a few months after a very close friend was expecting her 2nd baby and baby was stillborn at 38 weeks. She's been a good support for me but the feeling that I am flawed (or viewed that way by friends/family) it pretty awful.
Have been TTC for a couple months now with no luck yet.
No matter what, you still have to live your life. I like what Karen said, you greive, take stock, count blessings and move on.
Thanks to everyone for sharing their stories and good thoughts to everyone --

[Shandra]

Thanks Shelley. This is so small but I am so picky about it - actually my daughter wasn't stillborn; she lived for 4 days and we got to hold her and baptize her and things.

That's a correction but also a segue that I was thinking about this today and I think with miscarriages, someone just acknowledging the loss as a loss can go a long way. People are left without any record, and it's hard.

[Toni]

I had primary infertility. Then had a baby. Then got pregnant with help again - lost it early. Took some long, painful work with IVF - and had a second baby (but lost her twin early on). I STILL think about that 2nd pregnancy. I don't think that ever goes away.

But when you have a child, and you want another - it's just as hard to go through infertility. You wonder if your child will ever have a sibling - and especially feel useless as a parent after you have a miscarriage.

The guilt feels bad...and the pain is real. Sometimes, people are able to have a second (or third, etc). Sometimes it doesn't work. Either way, the best way to be a friend is to listen - to offer a ear when they are ready - and to be there to hug and a shoulder to cry on.

Good luck :

[jbeeky]

"I am so sorry. I wish there was something, anything I could do to take some pain away. Please let me know if there is anything I can do."

This is the only thing ever uttered that did not make me hostile and bitter. It sucks. And I am so, so sorry for all the ladies on this post that are in this awful "club".

[Susannah]

Oh, So much heartbreak and courage and love here! I am in awe. And I feel so lucky to have found all of you and this site!

re "waiting for something bad to happen", last year I went through my entire pregnancy fairly sure it wouldn't work out. First pregnancy, by surprise, at 42- my OB said I had a 25% chance of making it to 12 weeks. At 10 weeks I was told there was no heartbeat... but they were wrong. I bled and was in and out of the emergency room with hypotension, in (and blessedly out of) labor and delivery at 22 weeks, on morphine for fibroid pain at 26 weeks, bed rest for 3 months. He almost died at delivery (cord compression) then spent days in the ICU (severe neonatal hypoglycemia).

I loved him with utter abandon from the first little blip on the ultrasound. When I was pregnant, I never really thought he would make it, so I told only my closest friends, and I called him my "maybe baby". I wore menstrual pads and put plastic sheeting on my bed for the miscarriage that I was told to expect. I talked to him all the time, and thanked him for visiting with me for however long he was here. Each night as I went to bed I invited him to please consider sticking around in the World a bit longer. I knew that as much as I desperately wanted to have a baby, I would probably never be pregnant again, and I wanted to be a mom for as long and as fully as I was able. It was the strangest thing, but somehow, even with all the awfulness and pain, even thinking it would end any day, I enjoyed the pregnancy. I felt like I was in a dream and didn't want to wake up. I remember thinking that even if I lost him, whenever it was, I wouldn't give up this time for anything. Because I didn't "try" for him- every moment of being pregnant was serendipity.

Now, I still can't quite believe he is here. Maybe I even feel the anxiety more now that he actually made it- finally, coming up on a year since he was born, it is hitting me what a long hard road it was. I feel like his birthday will be a big milestone for me and maybe I can stop worrying so much. I don't (yet) know what it means to lose a child, but now I know what it means to have one, I doubt I could hold on to that zen the second time around... My heart goes out to each of you who have had the courage to try, and to keep going after such a loss.

[Shelley]

Shandra, thanks. I misunderstood. I went to your blog and read a little, and my heart broke a little more for you.

(I do understand why you'd want the record straight, I really do. I don't think that's a small thing at all.)

[JH]

Coming out of lurking for this one. I have had six pregnancies and two live children. Been through the spectrum of miscarriages-- one chemical, one blighted ovum, one late first trimester and one mid second trimester. It is hell. The one mid second trimester in particular, as I had to have a D & E instead of a D & C to get it out (probably the worst experience I've ever been though). And, all of these losses occurred after easily getting pregnant with my first child. It turned out I had "bad" eggs for a not so young/but not so old 35 year old. So, I decided to go the IVF route (w/PGD) so that I might finally realize an embryo that did not have some kind of chromosomal abnormality. And, as luck would have it, I only produced three follicles after they pumped me full of medication. So, I had to cancel the IVF cycle and convert it to an insemination cycle-- which essentially left me back at where I started-- a person who easily got pregnant with chromosomally abnormal babies. But, by some miracle, the insemination worked and I ended up with a perfectly healthy baby who is now four months old. Had all of the tests under the sun along the way and was so fraught with anxiety that it was scary. But, would I do it again? You betcha. I'm gearing up to try for #3. Why would I want to put myself through this agony? B/c I've always wanted three children and to me, the hell is worth it. It's almost gotten to a point where I consider each loss as a stepping stone to get closer to my goal. I don't mean to sound inhuman, but emotionally, I've become increasingly stoic with each additional loss - and resolute. I will have baby #3, even if it takes me seven additional losses to get there. And, I can tell you that I don't ever want anyone to think that "I'm crazy," "I should be happy with what I've got" or "I should give myself a break" or "I was only meant to have two children." I agree with the other posters who have said that friends and family who just acknowledge the losses and are there for you have been the most comforting. Also, I've really learned from this experience not to ask women with children when/if they are having another child. B/c you never know if they have been actively trying for years and you've just essentially shot an arrow of pain through their heart by asking this question.

[pnuts mama]

we've not lost a wanted pregnancy nor have we had any real trouble conceiving- but i wanted to say that i have experienced loss- deep, pain-filled and agonizing loss, and for those of you who are suffering through infertility of any kind, or have lost a pregnancy at any stage, or a child, my heart goes out to you.

i honestly cannot imagine what that experience is like, and i wish i *could* take away even some of that pain. there really is so little that most of us have any right to say to those of you who have battled through this- thank you for being so courageous with your sharing, and i wish you the comfort of real peace.

[L.]

I am so sorry, everyone, for your losses.

I have not experienced infertility. But, on a sort of tangent, I wanted to echo jennic and Suzanne in regards to your "relax" comment. I lost my first pregnancy at 8 weeks (blighted ovum) and, even though at the time I was so nervous about having a child that I didn't think I was that upset, in retrospect it sucked a lot--and I have read enough IF blogs to know how minor this is in comparison to some experiences. But that's my point, that even this minor experience had such a deep effect. When I got pregnant two years later (waited a bit to try again) I truly did not really believe I was pregnant or that everything would be okay until I gave birth and had the healthy baby in the arms. I mean, intellectually I knew I was pregnant, but emotionally I could not believe it; and, more realistically, I feared some unknown problem. In my case it was a sort of weird dreamlike feeling, or detachment, but I imagine pregnancy would be many times more difficult or even strange for someone who had experienced recurrent, or later-term, loss.

I think many of those who haven't even experienced pregnancy loss are probably a little nervous until they get the results of the 12- or 14-week tests.

Or, maybe they really don't. I had no hesitation about telling everyone right away the first time around (which sucked when I found out, of course).

[laura]

We are trying to decide if we want to try again after two 11 week miscarriages, about 2 years apart. Not sure what the first one was (blighted ovum? progesterone issue?) and we are waiting to find out what was with the second one (happened about 9 days ago.)

For us, blessed with a happy, healthy 5 year old daughter, I wonder if it is worth it to go through this again. The first loss, well, she was 2. She didn't really know what was going on with Mommy. But this time-- she knows. I am her Daisy troop leader and some events had to be canceled, so her friends knew I was "sick"-- she has read Curious George and knows what a hospital is :) She has been upset by this disruption and, while I think a little upset in a sunny life isn't a terrible thing (they need to learn to be resilient) I also think it can be scary and I don't know if I need to put her through all that again. I don't know if *I* need to go through all that again. I'm 35. Maybe it wasn't meant to be, maybe I don't have good eggs left, maybe DH's 38 yr old sperm is not good,-- who knows? But is it fair to my daughter to put money and resources into finding these answers?

Those are the questions we are asking right now. I don't mean to judge anyone by asking them, if you have decided to do whatever it takes to have second or third or 6th child, then you have found the answer to these questions that feels right to you, and I am happy for you even as I am scared for you. Working to find these answers for our family is difficult.

Everything said by previous posters about how to help has been right on. My sister in law came over one day after my D&C and brought my favorite junk food and took my daughter out for a few hours to play. That was a big help. My mother brought us dinner every day for the first week, and did laundry and such while she was at my house. Also huge helps, because that gave my husband time to relax with my daughter. (He was willing and is able to handle all the chores when I am out of commission-- this just let him have some down time too.)

[hedra]

Three successful pregnancies (four kids), six pregnancy losses (including a set of twins). Fortunately (I guess) four of those were very early. I obviously don't have secondary infertility, but I wasn't sure at first that I didn't. Certainly repeated losses isn't reassuring.

I spent a lot of time researching embyronic development after the losses started, and found that 5 weeks (discovered between 5 and 8 weeks) and 8-10 weeks (discovered between 10 and 12 weeks) losses are the most common 'developmental break points' - that is, if things aren't working, they stop at those two points most often. For some reason, it was easier to know that the pattern was part of the normal developmental double-checks, for me.

Not that it made them necessarily easier overall. I did have to make peace with maybe never having more than one child, and liked finding information that said onlies have some benefits in their lives that sibs don't get - but we still wanted more, and it was worth it for us to keep trying. Hard, but worth it.

I have a SIL who also had secondary IF, but hers was never conceiving again after that first one. And a good friend who did IVF several cycles (with losses) before she finally had a second child (again all the pain in the process)... Each path is so different... and all of these paths suck.

As for what to say - the 'I'm so sorry for your loss, what can I do to help?' is the best response to all of them. For too many, the loss is almost secret - being able to talk about it is a huge deal. I refuse to keep quiet about my losses because I found it so isolating when I didn't know anyone who'd had a loss. Once I started talking about it, suddenly, there were all these women, some of them old friends, who had stories to share and comfort from having been there. I personally don't need any mementos, but I totally understand how important they can be. I tend to think in terms of angel ornaments for those who celebrate Christmas - it is a time when we tend to think of having the family together, including those we've lost. I probablky would include any such that I received, had I recieved any (but I'm not asking for any, either).

As for further pregnancies, ignorance is bliss... and having had a loss, trusting another pregnancy is *really* hard. In my preg journal for the twins (on StorkNet), I think I had about five entries where I said 'it's finally starting to feel real' - I'd get just a bit into it feeling like this one would stick, and then I'd fall back out of it again. I coined a new term for the site (MOB - miscarriage on the brain) - and MOB works, since it kind of takes over your life like a mob, and has as little logic or direction, not to mention a tendency to be violently unpleasant.

Moxie, I'm so sorry for your friends' losses. It is truly awful. There's no way to measure pain against pain, but I'm always struck by the depth of loss later in pregnancy - The layers of shock and pain are deep enough early on, losing a child late is ... well, there are no words that apply well enough.

For me, I found comfort in my firstborn, in part because he is ... well, 'fey' is about right. He knew when I was pregnant, and he knew when each child left, before I did (and told me so). He said he spoke to their souls. That he knew, and he was himself at peace with the losses helped me tremendously - I had only to grieve for my own loss, and not for the loss of a sibling - a loss he was 'too young' to understand... though he seemed to understand perfectly well, really. His theological position on the topic influenced mine more than the other way around. His knowing (including knowing both twins pregnancies were twins) made it just seem ... well, not fine, but okay enough, and like maybe it wasn't my fault after all (I can vividly remember the first m/c, just sobbing 'I'm sorry! I'm sorry!' over and over, knowing it was somehow my fault that this child was gone... it's so easy to feel that way, and so hard to break free of it).

I still had a huge struggle with that loss, did my marriage some serious damage (tip: don't stop talking about how you feel just because you grieve differently, or at different depths!). The others were a bit easier to bear, but each was really their own individual experience. The twins loss was one of the easier ones to bear, but it was partly due again to something G said to B, not for my hearing but for his brother's comfort - that he saw the second baby going, but they weren't both leaving for good, one of them meant to be back, and would be back soon (I think it was three cycles later that I conceived M and R). Overhearing him say that ... it just felt like things would be right, even if they weren't okay in the typical sense. I honestly don't know how people get through without something like that to hold onto, though. G is my faith, embodied. I'm in awe of people who can hold onto faith without something so blatantly in their face, countering the traumas. (I once told someone that I don't understand faith, because I have a burning bush.)

And despite that 'burining bush', I still had post-traumatic stress reactions in the subsequent pregnancy(ies). I'm always surprised that people don't just ASSUME that a pregnancy loss at any stage will set up PTSD. It should be a no-brainer.

Okay, sorry, rambling.

[LEB]

JH, my experience is almost the same as yours ... 7 pregnancies 2 children. Losses through the first & second trimesters, a long period of inability to conceive with IVF thrown in then an 'it shouldn't have worked' last try resulting my year old son.

I'm now trying to build up the courage to try again. Why? Most people think I'm mad ... some days I do too, but I want three children and I'm not ready to let that go yet.

Pregnancy is not an enjoyable experience for me (no kidding), beyond having a live baby I have no expectations but my OB likes to try an get me through it relatively intact emotionally.

[Jan]

I refuse to keep quiet about my losses because I found it so isolating when I didn't know anyone who'd had a loss. Once I started talking about it, suddenly, there were all these women, some of them old friends, who had stories to share and comfort from having been there. -- hedra

Hedra, yes, this is exactly my attitude. No, not everyone wants or needs details, but I won't be made to feel embarrassed about mentioning it.

[Simone]

I don't even know what to say, except that I'm so sorry that so many of you experience this kind of pain. I can't even imagine...

Hedra, the story about your son communicating with the babies is amazing; I think if we really took the time to listen and notice, we'd find that so many more children have this ability, simply because they haven't been "trained" to believe otherwise. I can relate to getting comfort from your firstborn...such a great power in their little spirits that they don't even know they have!

Lastly, I also agree that one of the worst comments is "it was nature's way of taking care of an unhealthy fetus." That's like saying babies actually born with health issues should not have made it, like didn't quite hear the announcement to get off the mommy train.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you who have experienced this!

To those of you who

[hedra]

Simone, the one that gets me is the simple but appalling 'It was for the best'. No it was f-ing NOT for the best! For the best would have been a healthy happy baby, dammit! Yes, I was personally comforted knowing that the timing was typical for these kinds of things, but not right when the wound was fresh... Imagine saying the same thing to someone whose spouse just died unexpectedly? Even if they weren't the best spouse in the world, we wouldn't dream of saying that. Maybe later, the survivor can mention it themselves and you can nod sympathetically, but you'd expect to be slapped for saying that in any other loss situation.

[vickey]

I am sorry for ALL of our losses. This post could not have come at a better time for me, personally. At 40 yrs old,with a triplet & two twin ivf pregnancies resulting in 5 losses after heartbeats, 1 in-utero demise at 20 wks & one awesome son, I am wondering if I am crazy to think I would do it all again for one more child.
Actually, it makes me bitter when someone reminds me how great my one child is - i.e. how lucky we are - because this is precisely the reason I want another one!
Thank you for bringing up this subject. My heart goes out to all of you.

[Shelley]

Vickey, I don't think you're crazy for wanting to try again, and I don't think Laura would be giving up too early if she decides not to try again. I think everybody has their own personal limits for what they're willing to go through in an effort to have (one or) more children, and there's no "right" answer for everyone.

Hedra, the story about your son was amazing. This doesn't compare to that, but my daughter once announced she had a brother and a sister, after my second m/c ... I asked her what she meant, and she smiled and continued about her business. It was spooky but reassuring somehow, and I've thought of that moment many times since.

I've also become a lot more open about my experiences with pregnancy loss, especially with friends -- initially I didn't want to talk about it with anyone but my closest friends and family, but that has changed. Also, at a quilt class recently, the topic turned to how awful it is to have an only child. After a few minutes of this I said, borrowing a line from this blog (I think--can't remember attribution--forgive me!), "Well, I think it's a tremendous luxury to be able to choose how many children you have," and conversation shut down for a little while. I don't go out of my way to make people feel like jerks (unless they richly deserve it and it seems worth it), but sometimes it's hard to find a way in a situation like that to say hey, that's a super-sensitive topic without going into excruciating details.

[kate]

Hi Vickey: I'm looking at your situation from the other side of the chasm. I'm 46 now, and I had my son at 39, after almost 5 years of infertility and trying with a surrogate mom. (None one of the 4 surrogate transfers worked; I carried him myself - a lightening strike) Only one son. After I had my son I never could muster the energy to put my happiness on a shelf and hop back onto the fertility train. But I meant to. Right up until I was 45 and my husband said that he was too old, and I've been mourning ever since.

When I was trying for my first one, I could never understand all of the moaning about a second one, but I sure do now. And mine's awesome too. What's more, he loves little kids.

If anyone mentions it to me, I just look at them and say "it is probably the biggest regret of my life." Certainly not "casual chat" material; shuts them down immediately!

[Jessica]

I have two kids. A 4yo and a 2yo. Then I miscarried TWICE in the second trimester. The first time it happened it wasn't that bad. The worst thing was paying over $1000 out of pocket for the D&E to go home w/out a baby. The next time around, the worst part was realizing this might be a pattern rather than extremely bad luck. A few months later, the "worst" part was getting nowhere with medical tests. Everything looked "normal." That WAS depressing because there's no treatment for the unexplained. Now, the worst part is joining up with other women for playgroups and outings and cooperative preschool type things, and having to DO more for them because they are so busy. You know, I am now expected to babysit because I don't have a baby keeping me busy. I'm expected to sign up to teach more of the lessons because the other moms have their babies. I think I'm going to stop going just to avoid it all.

[Elena k]

I feel for everyone on this site that has had a miscarriage or miscarriages it is a loss and one that can be so hard for both partners to fathom I have a wonderful 4year old that has brought me much joy and I have so wanted her to have a sibling but after a live birth and 4miscarriages to follow I never thought it would happen to me I get pregnant at a drop of a hat and then lose them at 6weeks to 10 weeks but I have not yet given up hope i need to believe that I could still have another child I need to believe that there is hope and if I does never happen then I need to believe that it was my fate and it was not meant to be but god still blessed me with my daughter the love of my life and gods blessing to me .so please don't stop wishing believing And hoping because miracles of life can happen to all of us