Q&A: mediating between a 3-year-old and a 6-month-old

Kristen writes:

"I am having a sibling problem. I have read your posts on the topic, read Siblings Without Rivalry and Between Parent and Child and still can't seem to find a solutions.

I have 2 daughters, 3 yo and 6 months. The 3 year old has some jealously especially when I have to nurse the baby and lie down with her to get her to sleep. It is a tantrum every time the baby needs a nap no matter what measures I take to avoid it. It usually ends with her lying in the hall outside my room crying that she doesn't want to be left alone. Eventually she will go into her room to play. No go nursing the baby to sleep in a communal room, she's too distracted.

The other problem is that the 3 year old likes to wrestle with the baby. She thinks it is hugs and kisses but it's really pulling and grabbing. The 6 month old is really active, crawling and pulling to standing but not exactly steady on her feet, I don't feel that pulling and grabbing (sometimes picking her up) is a safe interaction. Right now I have to separate her from the baby and repeat that this is not a safe way to play, I usually get an "ok, ok, alright' and then she is back at it, until eventually she is in her room and we are all crying.

I am at my wits end trying to deal with these issues. (It would really help if I could get a good night's sleep, but that's a whole other battle) I do my best to give my oldest some special time when the baby is asleep. I am so mixed up and hugely afraid that I am causing problems instead of solving them."

This evening I'm going to put up a weekend review of the classic book Your Three-Year-Old: Friend or Enemy by Ames and Ilg. I think if Kristen gets a chance to read this book she'll see that this sounds like a 3-year-old problem, and not a sibling problem necessarily.

The dirty little secret that most parents of kids 3 years apart (like, oh, say, me) won't tell you is that 3-year-olds can be amazing little creatures, but at a certain point they become cranky little jerks. And it's kind of a crapshoot where in the cycle you'll end up when you have your baby. So you could have a newborn and a sweet loving 3-year-old angel, but then later a 6-month-old and a 3 1/2-year-old cranky jerk. Or you could have a newborn and a cranky jerk, and then 6 months later a 6-month-old and an angel.

In other words, this isn't your fault. And there's not really much you can do to make the older one suddenly become loving and not jealous. Because she is jealous, and that's appropriate, if not particularly adaptive. But she's also just at a tough age.

I can tell you what I did, with some success. No guarantees that my ideas will work, so I'm hoping we'll get great comments with other ideas.

For the nursing down for naps problem, use the TV. We had a Bob the Builder DVD that my older son was only allowed to watch while I was nursing the younger one down for naps. Because it was limited to that time, he'd get really excited to see it, so he actually started looking for ward to my leaving the room to get the other one to sleep so he could watch that DVD. Bonus: I never had to see the first part of the DVD because I was in the other room nursing. So if your child loves some video you can't stand, this could be the nursing-your-sister-to-sleep video (hello, Wiggles).

For the too-rough play, all I could do was just try to be on top of it as much as I could. It was excruciating to have to be there all the time (and I got nothing done), but there were a few months when that was all that worked. There were brief periods in which I could give the older one a job and he'd do it or help me do it, and that would distract him, but for the most part it was just constant vigilance.

From having read Siblings Without Rivalry I knew not to set up any situations in which I was getting angry or telling him he was bad for interacting with his brother (even when that interaction was covertly malicious). So I'd just praise him for the good interactions, and then kind of play dumb about the intent behind the bad ones and try to distract him the way you would a young toddler.

It sucked, but it got us through those evil months.

I'll have my review of the book up for this weekend, and it's a book I highly recommend. Three years is both the best of times and the worst of times, and the Ames and Ilg book really lays it all out and lets you know that you're not crazy for thinking your child is both Jekyll and Hyde, and it's also not anything you did to make them that way. So I think reading that book will help you get a little breathing room emotionally.

Can anyone else offer practical suggestions for dealing with the immediate problems?

Comments

[enu]

One thing I've found to be helpful in "modulating" the intensity of physical contact is to actively model it with the child. We did this a lot with other people's kitties and puppies. Hold the child's hand with yours as you very gently pat the kitty or baby or whatever, and explain this is how we pet kitty. And hopefully kitty will purr or baby will gurgle and smile and you can say "see how much kitty likes this, she's purring" or "look, Baby really gets happy when pat her head like that."

I know it sounds assinine, but it worked pretty well for us - that is to say, younger child survived ;-)

[Linda]

That's a good point, enu. We did the same thing with our 3 year old girls and our cats/dog so they understood the word "gentle" and how it felt. Now the only times they hurt the baby are unintentional~like swinging their feet over the couch and wacking her in the head or jumping off the coffee table and misjudging the distance. I'm still working on that stuff.

[Jill]

I did a couple of things. Mine were that age difference too. First, I often pointed out things that the baby couldn't do. "You can have an apple, but Baby sure can't have one. He's too young. Just big guys get apples!" Make sure you point out all the little things as the day goes on. "Being big is waaay better than being a baby-- Baby can't even do..." Really, your baby won't care if you insult her.

Second, (and mostly when Baby was a newborn) we sometimes "nursed" our babies together. My son pulled up his shirt and put his favorite teddy to his breast, curled up on his side facing me, with my baby at my breast. We had little special talks about our babies, about how he'd been when he was a baby, about our day's plans, etc. It was a quiet snuggling time together.

And then, there's the box of toys/books that are only available to Big Kids when the baby isn't around. Pull out the small pieces that are unsafe around a crawling baby. Let her have the pop-up books that babies tear. Again, push the fact that this is special stuff for Big Kids and Baby can't have any.
good luck!

[Charisse]

No sibbies, but I do have an intense 3 year old girl--and I so agree that they are such a source of charm and wonderment...and their meltdowns are SO awful. I mean, the force and the tenacity and the intentional hurting--I've experienced my first "I wish I had a different mommy, not you!" and "I wish you died right now" in the last few months--and then the reactive sobbing when she realizes how scary a thing she's said/felt. Ow. Lately she's settled on "you're mean and I'm not going to be your friend". I tell her it makes me sad to hear that, and I love her. Best I can think of.

A-ny-way. I love Moxie's TV concept. We use it for pre-bath--a particularly busy 20 minutes at our place--and sometimes for real rough nights too. Favorites of my girl being "My Neighbor Totoro" and "Kiki's Delivery Service", old Muppet Shows and Curious George and Thomas on TV. Whatever they like, really.

We got some nice books directly about emotions when Mouse was in her last rough stage and seeming to have a hard time. They were called "When I Feel Jealous" or "How I feel: Jealous!" or something like that, and they were great for giving her a way to start talking about stuff like that.

And the reinforcing the positive--it does sound like you're doing a lot of what you can, but is there a way to suggest great things that you would love to have her do with/for the baby, and praise her for them? Can she put on a show and sing songs in her fairy outfit (which the baby would probably love)? Or show the baby her big girl books or "teach" how to paint? I'm not sure exactly what, but if you can come up with something that will get the feedback going in a positive direction I would think that would help.

Last thought: preschool? Don't know your situation & perhaps she's already going, but I know the switch from daycare (I WOHM) to a real solid, active preschool program made a world of difference in terms of Mouse's state of mind at the end of the day.

Good luck & sympathy!

[Maura]

No advice, but Jill, your comment made me want to have another baby just so my son and I could have that special nursing-bonding time. It sounds wonderful!

[Jean]

I second the "big girls get to . . ." We did this a lot with M, who is about 2yrs 11 months older than C. And Moxie's video/TV idea is a great one. As an infant, C had reflux and hence was a lousy sleeper. Lots of nights where I got 2hrs of sleep, and that was in 30 min increments. There were times when Cinderella was my saving grace. Not proud of it, but sometimes survival is the best you've got.

It does get better. Now I watch them play together, he hugs her good-night, lots of sweet moments. Not every moment is sweet, but the ones that are make the rest worth it.

[Courtney]

Oh good, I just thought my kid was wacked:)

[flea]

We play the "big girls get to XXX" game sometimes, but for me it's important to keep it fairly neutral in tone. (I don't always succeed.) But I try to emphasize that big girls and babies are at different stages of life, and have different skills and needs, not just the super cool advantages and mad skilz that big girls have and babies don't. So it's, "Your brother nurses, because he is a baby, and when you are a baby you nursed too." And I can tell a cute story about when she nursed, or something like that. And on the other end, "Your brother can't have candy yet, because he is a baby, but when he is as big as you he will be able to have candy as a treat sometimes too." And we also talk about new accomplishments the baby has ("He can walk now! I remember when you learned to walk!"). She LOVES the stories about when she was that age, and telling them (or looking at pictures of her at the right age) are a great antidote to bouts of jealousy or stress over a new baby skill.

[O]

Wow, I wish I had a suggestion but I'm just another in the "me, too" pile, with tears from the relief that I'm not alone, either. Ours are now 4 & 2 and it drove me back to work! It was really putting on my oxygen mask first so I could remember that there was something I could do well since clearly keep my kids from killing each other wasn't one of them.
The only other thing that I can often not remember fast enough: our now-4 year old was a "high touch" baby when he was a baby--ie, an angel if he was being held or snuggling next to someone. So lots of the physicality with the new baby could be diverted if I would play with him--cuddles, tickles, tackles--physically. Which also wildly entertained the baby to watch. The trick was remembering that in time when I was tired and upset. Still is the trick, in fact.
Good luck. Hang in there.

[charissa]

Second (third? fourth?) the DVD/TV suggestion. Another option would be an activity that you/she could tolerate her doing alone. We used playing with soap bubbles and water in the kitchen sink. We also used Colorforms.

Also, I found the Ames/Ilg book infinitly helpful -- I thought I was loosing my mind with my three year old, until I realized that it's all pretty normal stuff. Didn't make it any more fun, but at least I could stop thinking that I was a failure as a mom.

[&BabyMakes75]

Moxie, as always, you rock. How is it that you know what stage I'm at?! I just hope you get a few pennies off my my Amazon purchase even though I bought it used off their site, (of course, using your click-though!) Charissa, thanks for the last sentence of your comment.

[julie]

Our son turns 2 today.....but I clicked on "3 - Friend or Enemy" and bought it anyways. Mostly b/c the title cracks me up. I also bought the "2 - tender or terrible" book by the same authors. Looking forward to earning Moxie some money and figuring out what we have in store for us. Good times. We're planning to try for #2 when A is about 3-3.5. Good lord.

[Jan]

Depends on how your kid is wired, but my older (3 now, but 19 months when the baby was born) was and is really motivated by being given a job. So I would ask her to bring me a burp cloth or get the baby some socks or get me a drink (pop in a can or water in a bottle) when my hands were tied up with nursing. And then made a huge deal out of how much easier it was for me to nurse the baby when I had my big girl there to help me. Later she 'helped' me sing lullabies and turn on the music/vibrate mode on the bouncy seat or swing.

Totally second, third, fourth the idea about teaching gentleness both by example and by practicing on animals (or if you don't have access to animals or think your kid isn't ready for that, be creative -- eggs have to be handled gently, finger jello, flowers, lots of stuff).

We loved Joanna Cole's "I'm a Big Sister" for opening lines of communication about life with a new baby.

If you can stand it, you might try letting your big girl have a 'turn' (pretending) nursing. My Munchkin went through a long time where she wanted me to hold her like a baby and she'd make little sucking noises and look up at me. Drove her slightly-more-conservative Daddy crazy, but seemed to help her a bit.

If you have a gliding rocker/ottoman set, you could let your big girl sit on the footstool between your feet while you rock -- the Munchkin still likes that one.

I love the idea of talking to her about fond memories of when she was a baby. I think it'd be important to make sure it didn't sound like she'd been replaced by the baby. (One Big Sister book we got started out: "Ellie used to be Mommy and Daddy's little girl. But then Mommy had a new baby and now Ellie's a big sister!" WTF? Who wants to send that message? Ellie's not their little girl anymore? Sheesh.)

[hedra]

Subsitute '3-year-old twin sister' for 6-month-old baby, and you've got my house. Only, they both do it to each other. Roll on each other and say it is hugs. Insane jealousy of attention for the other. Extreme physicality prettied up a smidge enough to try to sneak it by under the guise of 'playful'.

Oy.

We had the same split (ish, the babies were newborns when older bro was 3), and the hugging and love was soooo physical. He'd 'steamroller' them if he could, or 'snowplow' (put his head down on the ground and crawl into their sides, pushing them across the floor if we didn't snatch them up out of reach.

We did use a LOT of the S.W.R. approach to frame the words (no blame, no guilt), and a lot of modeling how to do the touching well/kindly/etc. (and lots of Safe/Respectful/Kind - plenty of 'only the baby gets to decide if you're being gentle enough. You can decide for you how you like to be touched, gentle or firm, we respect the baby by allowing the baby to decide how THEY like to be touched. Here's how you can tell if she likes it! She smiles, or laughs, or coos, or reaches for you. Here's how to tell if she doesn't like it: She cries, she pushes away, she looks away from you, she stops laughing or cooing.' Etc. Repeat until they outgrow the age, LOL!

It took a LONG time to get better. This is also an age where I find that it is ABSOLUTELY impossible to be a sofa-mom. NO parenting from across the room. No repeating it in words if words are not immediately backed up by actions. They don't stop until you touch them. Hand on shoulder to get attention, getting down at their level even more than before (where a few months ago I could stop getting down at their level, now it is CRITICAL to do so), physically removing them from situations (gently), etc. Timeouts fail catastrophically around now, if they've ever worked before (ours seem to work around 2 if they're really short - a few seconds, but by 3, forget it).

They also need a LOT of physical loving on, and seem to desperately need to touch faces, caress, and be cuddled. Considering how touched out I was with newborn twins... that was painful. But it was also absolutely essential. This is another time to 'fill them up' so they don't demand their fill at bad times in bad ways. The mini-trampoline (to get large muscle/wrestling activity expressed), playing OT/PT games - dragging them on a blanket, swinging them on swings REALLY HIGH, firm hugs, massage, pulling them around by their feet, picking them up upside down and rotating them, lifting them HIGH, dancing with them, and lots of hugs and pets until THEY flee the contact. That keeps the physicality to a dull roar.

And all this is such a good reminder for me, because M just slid right into this (R had been here for a couple of weeks), and now I have two who need to be physically intervened with, touched, cuddled, comforted, lifted, swung, etc., etc., etc. I've been trying to suppress their responses instead of just solving their problem FIRST so my problem will go away. D'oh! You'd think I'd remember that every time, but no.

[mezzaluna]

we've got a 34 month old son and 6 month old daughter, so maybe a little less of a gap... and our son is a pretty gentle personality, but we've had a few challenges of the sort you describe!

we moved into a new house recently, and the first few days our son kept running out the front door whenever i went to nurse the little one down... but after a few incidents where i ran after him and told him how important it was that he stay in the house with me, he now stays!?? so some things like that we've been able to fix by just staying utterly consistent and talking to him respectfully about our expectations.

for the physicality, we've been doing what hedra said - telling the big one how to read the little one's cues, so he's not dependent on us the parents to mediate their interactions. if the baby's complaining but not in immediate danger, i try to say "listen to what she's telling you" instead of spelling it out for him. strangely, the one behavior that looks purposefully mean - hitting her on the head - gets very little reaction from her, and he also seems calm when he does it... so i just try to calmly ask him not to do that, and tell him i'm afraid it might hurt her even though she's not crying.

also, like flea we don't use the "big kid" theme as a motivator. we do also talk about the ages and stages they're at and celebrate those. i'm just afraid the big kid idea would backfire, because when our son gets tired or hungry, his big-kidness goes right out the door, and i'm not sure he even *wants* to be big then.

finally, since we have to ask our son to wait a lot while we help the baby, we make sure sometimes when we need to help our son to talk to the baby about it and ask her patience while we help our son. who knows, it may mean something to the baby, but i'm sure it means something to our son to see his needs respected, and if i have to interrupt things with my son i try to be polite and say excuse me, and let him know when i will be able to give him my attention again. just trying to show them that everyone in the family is important and we're trying to meet everyone's needs and respect everyone.

[Amy]

#2 and #3 are FIVE years apart, and we have similar jealousy issues. Because #2 is 5, I can verbalize a lot of what I think she is feeling which seems to help. We also talk a lot about her babyhood and pull out pictures so she can see that she got similar attention. My latest trick is "girls only" activities (without older or baby brother along) like pedicures (funny, I always mocked moms who took little girls for pedicures... and now I am one!) or lunch with her grandmother and I. #3 is a high-needs, high-touch, titty baby (literally), so her jealousy is justified. But like Kristen, I don't want there to be lasting issues between them b/c #1 and #2 are quite close and #1 LOVES the baby. Oh, and I bought Sibs w/o Rivalry... but with 3 kids all grappling for my attention I haven't had time to read it!

[Kristin]

Thanks everyone!! These are some really good ideas. I try not to have to use the tv b/c 3 yo is a bit of an addict about it, the more she watches the more she wants to watch. The only solution is to not have it on at all, which never really works. I think the video idea will really work. We can borrow them from our local library and I can control the start time, which will be really helpful.
And the best news is that the baby has started to sleep again!! Moxie- you don't have anything about a 6 month sleep regression?!?

[Shandra]

This is kind of weirdly timely.

This is a tangent but it shows the usefulness of the books, really.

My son actually is in the dream phase of two right now where the whole world is so! great! and he must! share! I know this will not last. And this weekend we had one of those "not lasting" moments when he threw a huge huge fit because his bagel was not sufficient round (it was squished, and the last one).

My FIL started in on the "you must squash this behaviour now" thing and I said, fresh from reading the book on two year olds, "oh he's just in a PERIOD OF DISEQUILIBRIUM" and the, I don't know, groovy sound of the phrase stopped my FIL short.

So useful!
Ha ha.

[Stephanie]

Does your three year old still want to nurse? If you are interested, tandem nursing may be a big help with this problem.

[Marija]

Mine too! I especially love these shots using nuratal light. There is a softness about them that goes so well with little ones. Hope you'll keep visiting and leaving these wonderful comments. Love it!

[Bart]

I never timed. I would offer one when bub detached I'd burp them then recatath to the same. Bub detaches a 2nd time burp again then offer the 2nd breast. Next feed start on what was the 2nd breast last time.A small safety pin on your bra strap can help keep track of where youre upto.This method helps baby draw out the thicker more filling hind milk from the starting side then a little formilk from the 2nd tops them off helps alleviate any pressure from the 2nd. With #2 I always leaked of the 2nd anyway, with #3 I used to hold a bottle to the other store for backup what poured out. (yes I was blessed the 3rd time around, wish Id had the same for the 1st!)Still feed as often for as long as bub wants. His tummy is still little and breast milk is so quickly digested. Youre also still building your supply.I did it all by the book with #1 and it was hard, with the next 2 I lost the books ditched the clock looked at my babies. Count your 6-8 wet/soiled nappies a day to know hes hydrated, settles relatively well youre on the right track. Remember sleeping like a baby is a fallacy, babies wake up soiled hungry every couple of hrs!Besides bubs so much more enjoyable to look at than clocks or books!