Q&A: Who do you trust with your child's well-being

Shandra writes:

"Short background: I was a victim of incest by an extended family member as a child; my parents failed to protect me and my mother's narcissism, in particular, was also a factor in being Somewhat Messed Up.

My son is two now and I got a pretty much dream job that's a perfect match for me - the kind of timing that doesn't happen very often. 

So I carefully visited a lot of daycares. I have a nanny who still watches my son once a week, but we could not afford her full-time, and also I generally have felt that if it's full-time care of a toddler, a centre may be safer because the staff get breaks and things. I chose this centre because they were open and friendly and warm, the physical space was good, and most importantly a toddler from our playgroup has been going there and thriving (on the surface) and her mom recommended it. It's a Montessori. My parents wanted to be my son's full-time caregivers, but, see background, above.

Flash forward to today, 4 weeks into the full time daycare thing. It was grandparents day and my parents went, and they are appalled at how miserable they perceive my son to be and want to have a huge family meeting and g-d knows what all else. I called the school and my son's teacher said that yes, he was upset when they were here, the way that he is upset when we drop him off and pick him up, but that he was fine the rest of the day, except at nap, because he often is a little teary at nap, so they had to rub his back for him. 

He does cry at dropoff and pick up, and he does tell us that he does not like school (although he also says he likes the blocks, painting, his friends, and his teacher).  I would say until today that I thought he was having adjustment issues but was generally fine - eats, sleeps, laughs, plays, etc., fine when he is at home. My mother spidey sense is horribly upset at walking away from my son every day, but is not going off that he is being damaged awfully or anything like that.

And yet I feel like I should take my parents' concerns seriously because I am kind of invested in the dream job and that may cloud my judgment. My husband, who does all the dropping off, thinks the school is fine and that our son is having some trouble adjusting (but not horrible all day crying or anything) and that it is really too early to tell any more than that,

So my core question is, how do you know if daycare is working or not working? How do you know whether to trust the staff when they say your child is okay? I am ambivalent because (see incest survivor, above) I have no trust in anyone really."

This one's a gut-punch, for sure. I'm so, so sorry for the incest and your damaged relationship with your mother. But I'm so happy for you for your job!

It sounds like you're in a huge conundrum: Trust yourself in this situation, and you're risking being a mother like your own mother was, who didn't protect her child from horrible emotional damage. Or trust your mother, and potentially protect your child, except that how can you trust your mother when you know she's not trustworthy?

Now I certainly don't have any idea whether things are going well at daycare. But I do think there are somethings you can tease out about motives of the various parties involved here:

Your husband: You know his main concern is for your son's well-being, with yours and your family unit's coming a close next. His opinion and judgment counts for a ton.

Your son: He's 2, and all he knows is that he wants to be with you, because that's the way it's always been. Transition times are tough for this age, so he cries and clings. (I actually think it's worse when they don't cry and cling. The other day I left my younger one with our new babysitter B--a friend from church who is 22, energetic, goofy, and thinks he poops rainbows just like I do--and he wouldn't look at me when I tried to kiss him goodbye. That about killed me. Even though I know he has tons of fun with B. Don't you love how I turn everyone else's problems into mine? Charming, I know.) But he's also adaptable and looking for a good time, and is probably loving hanging out with the other kids and all the new-to-him toys. In short, he's an unreliable witness about the daycare center, because he may love it while he's there but hate being dropped off and picked up. To a 2-year-old, that's completely logical.

The teachers at the center: IME, daycare providers and teachers will definitely tell you when your child is having problems. They want you to be able to help from your end working on the adjustment thing. And it doesn't help them one bit to have a miserable kid in their class, since it distracts them from the group as a whole. I just don't think they'd be telling you he's fine if he was miserable, because it goes against their best interests.

The other playgroup mom: Her only motive, it seems, is to tell you about a place she likes and her daughter is happy at. Presumably she's your friend (or at least friendly acquaintance), and she wanted to offer a good solid solution to your childcare problem.

You: You know you're only looking out for your son's best interest, but your own faith in your abilities to judge a situation is shaken because the story you tell yourself is that you don't trust anyone. The overwhelming feeling I get from reading your email, though, is that you don't trust your parents. So you're in this conundrum now in which not trusting your parents could potentially turn you into your mother. But trusting your parents could drag you under emotionally, because it means that a) you failed to protect your son initially, and b) you're still that same scared kid who couldn't do anything to help herself.

And finally, your parents: They wanted to be your son's full-time caregivers, and were hurt when you didn't ask them. They clearly have major lingering feelings (guilt, fear, denial, something else) about not having protected you when you were young. Maybe wanting to take care of your son is the way they think they can "make up for" what happened to you. Or maybe they are just in denial that anything that bad happened to you, and think they can do a better job with your son than anyone else can. At any rate, to me it sounds like they were predisposed to hate the daycare from the beginning, because his going to daycare instead of being with them reflects badly on them. Of everyone involved in the scenario, they're the ones with the cloudy motivations. But you knew that already.

I can't really come up with a way to summarize that this isn't going to tell Shandra what to do, and I'm not going to do that. I am going to say that she knows more about herself than her parents can afford to give her credit for. This is sort of a real-life version of Prisoner's Dilemma, only in this case, Shandra knows who the other prisoners are, and what their motivations are.

Other thoughts?

Comments

[enu]

This is really a heavy load for Shandra. My heart goes out to her - making childcare decisions is hard enough when your soul is not burdened by demons from the past.

I don't have much helpful to say except this: I think a surprise visit (or two) to son's school could give Shandra a much better idea about how things actually are for him there. It's so hard to tell from drop off/pick up time, and while I would definately give credence to son's self-reported status there, it is still only 4 weeks in to a very big transition.

Best wishes on a good outcome and peace in the very near future.

[michaela]

Enu's suggestion is brilliant. I would also second what Moxie said about the daycare staff's motivation being to have everything go as smoothly as it can with the little ones; if they are telling you about the times when he *is* upset and are not pulling you aside to talk about major adjustment issues AND you feel they're pretty reliable, then I would really trust that.

My daughter is 16 months; several new kids are transitioning into her daycare over the last couple weeks, and it's definitely the 2-year-olds who are having the hardest time simply because they know what they want at the moment you drop them off, and that's for Mom or Dad to stay. But then 3 minutes later, what they want is to play with that cool truck that other kid has.

All of which is a rambling, inarticulate way of saying that your intuition, and that of your husband, sounds pretty solid to me. Best of luck with the situation, and big congrats on the dream job -- you totally deserve it!

[G's Momma]

I have worked in numerous daycare centers and I definitely agree that the teachers would be telling you if your child was miserable all day.

A drop in is a nice way to check in, but only if they have an observation room where you child will not see you. If you child sees you, he is going to think it is time to go home. He'll be a wreck the rest of the day because he was dropped off twice. Also you will never get a clear picture of what he is like if he can see you because he will only want to play with you while you are there.

If an observation room is not a possibility, you may want to consider going back to the daycare with your son after the other kids have left (usually the teachers are around working on things but can give you a few minutes alone in the room). Have him walk you through his day. Sometimes a visual cue helps remind children of what they have done. This will give you a chance to see his excitement about the different parts of the day. If during his walk through of the room, he seems upset or anxious, then something may be up that you need to investigate further.

In the end, you have to go with your gut. Does the center seem reliable? Do the people there seem to have your child's well being at heart? Are the teachers willing to give you feedback on your child's day (do they even know what your child did that day)? If the answers are yes, then you probably picked a good place.

Other things I like to check about daycare centers:
NAEYC accreditation - check the NAEYC site or just ask the center
Teacher breaks - how many per day and when?
Teacher vacation - how many and when?
(remember a well rested teacher will take better care of your child)
Teacher turnover - how long do teachers stay with the center?
Teacher education level
Funding - where do you tuition dollars go? - directly into your child's classroom or for other things that do not benefit your child?

This is a short list, obviously there is a lot more to check for, but these are things I think that most people do not check out.

I hope that this situation ends positively for you. I love Montessori programs for the little ones.

[Rosemary]

I feel for you. Why not have playgroup friend's mummy go and look for you when she picks up her own child. You could ask her to drop her daughter off 10-15 minutes after you leave and give you a report or maybe if she is picking her daughter up earlier, she could observe. That way your son won't get upset by seeing you.

That is how we handled it with my son's daycare. One of the other mums "spied" (with full knowledge of the daycare provider!) for me. Wonderful peace of mind.

My father told me that my son hates his daycare. Turns out my father hates my son's daycare....my father thinks I should be home with him all day. Son loves daycare so much that he cries if we drive past it and don't stop.

[rudyinparis]

I love Moxie's breakdown of the motivations of each person involved.

The only other advice I can think of--would the daycare providers supply you with some phone numbers of other parents? Maybe hearing their opnion, and, in particular, the transition stories of their children, could help add some useful information?

Even in an ideal situation, trusting our daycare heart and soul (which we must) can be difficult. Know that you'll do what's right for your child.

[Lisa]

Brilliant ideas as usual from Moxie and the commenters. I love this place.
I think breaking down the motivations of all parties is particularly insightful. I'm sorry that your parents betrayed you and suspect that Moxie's right on with respect to their motivation to hate day care. Gathering your own information with the other suggestions sounds like the way to go.

On a sort of related note, I just read Gavin de Becker's "Protecting the Gift" about how we protect our kids and it's really an insightful read. The most helpful thing was how he dismantled some of the myths around child safety (like the strange man at the playground luring a child into his car with a lollipop), and pointed out how our children are more likely to be abused by someone who knows them, and has gained their trust over time. Scary to re-frame it, because it's much easier to just say "don't talk to strangers" than it is to make sure that Uncle X is well intentioned and to defend your child if she doesn't want to kiss and hug every family member hello. We're so inconsistent in that regard, right? We say "don't talk to strangers" but we talk to them all the time, so really we should be teacing our kids how to assess a situation and how to choose which stranger to talk to. And we say "it's your body, no one should make you do anything that makes you uncomfortable" but when Great Aunt Melba comes over, we prompt little Jimmy to give her a kiss and are stern when he balks. De Becker's book is great about exposing these hypocrises. And for what it's worth, he has chapters on choosing child care (though I know that you're not specifically concerned about abusive behavior going on in the center you've chosen, they are still great chapters around building an alliance with other parents in your child care situation).

I think you have a lot of reassuring information already, from your husband and the care providers. And I do think you can trust your instincts.

[Nancy]

If your spidey sense says you feel awful leaving him there, and your son himself says he doesn't like it (a month is an incredibly long time from his perspective), I don't think you can discount the evidence of your parents, even though you also can't take it at face value. Even great daycare isn't for everyone.

[D]

I vary my hours for pickup, have other mums tell me what they see my son doing when they pick up their children, have chats with the daycare lady as often as I can, and while my son is too young to talk to me about what happens at daycare, I watch his moods, his demeanour etc when its daycare days. His screaming when he pulled into the driveway at our last daycare vs the smiles at approach to the new one....speak volumes.

[Alicia]

Dropping in is a great idea to put your mind at ease as to how things are for your son during the day. And depending how that goes, the decision as to where is best for your son to spend his days is for you and your husband to make. Your agendas are in sync, your son's well-being is first and foremost for the both of you.

And anyone else with an agenda? I would not feel any need to justify my decisions to them. I'm not raising my child in a democracy where all and sundry have a vote.

[Cat, Galloping]

All I can say is that grandparents' day sounds like a *terrible* idea!

Seriously, I'm not a survivor of any kind of abuse, and I can completely imagine my parents pulling the same thing in a similar situation. I think most people can't help question their own judgment when their parents start questioning it, especially if it's as serious an issue as child care.

My mom makes me crazy by first saying how terrible daycare is (because kids get sick), then blaming my son's shyness on the fact that he spent the first year in the house with the nanny, and saying he would have been better off in daycare after all.

[Kamilah]

I enrolled my daughter in full-time daycare at 13 months, and her transition took about 3 days. I moved her to another centre at 21 months, and the transition took about 6 weeks. I know that she is active, safe, and happy while she is there, but drop-off and pick-up can still sometimes be a bit reluctant, 8 weeks in.

At almost 2 L expects to have some control of her life but is acutely aware that in this regard she does not (something she only became aware of with the move, as she had always known the previous centre to be part of the routine). IMO this has shaken her confidence, thus the clingy goodbyes and hellos.

Four weeks may not be long enough for your child to accept that you are always coming back. I find that staying consistent with times, talking about where we're going, who will be there, and the sorts of activities she'll participate in really helped. I also had many conversations with her about how much she is loved (in our case by the caregivers and friends that she left behind). Don't underestimate how much you can communicate to your son about why he spends time at school and what you hope he will take from the experience.

[ikate]

Great response, Moxie! Very insightful.

I have to echo what the other commenters have said. It sounds like you have a good daycare but some drop-off issues. Suprise visits should be welcomed and encouraged by the staff so you should do a few of those. I also think you should stay out of site of your son.

I know my 11-month old (who has been at daycare since 14 weeks) throws a huge fit when I drop her off. By the time I get outside I can see her from the windows and she's happy as a clam.

During g-parents day he was probably off since they were there - off routine and not sure what to expect.

[AmyinMotown]

I like the suggestion of showing up at different times and doing the "drop-in." That made me feel a lot better about leaving my daughter at school. Seeing that she was happily playing made me feel good. I also like the idea of enlisting the help of your playgroup friend.Also, just the fact they react to this being teary at nap by rubbing his back is sweet to me--Maggie's teachers used to pick her up and rock with her when she had a rough time with my leaving. That sort of warm-hearted reaction, instead of forcing the chhild into an activity or to deal on their own, was very reassuring.

Also, what kind of kid is he? Some kids are more nervous, shy, and hate change (like me!). If he's normally easygoing and adaptable and his feelings about daycare are an anomaly, then that's a red flag. If he's normally a cautious kid, then this could be Just Him. Also, he may be reacting to the countless other changes in the routine around your house that come from you going back to work. At this age, they looovvvveee thir routines. Here's an example--Maggie, who loves her school, was extra weepy and sad there for a few days and I coud not figure out what was going on. We were painting the living room at the time so all her stuff was crowded into this eensy teesy area and she didn't have a lot of room to play. We finished the room, everything went back as it was, and voila, she was fine. It seemed so odd that someting so trivial and short term could rock her world, but it did! I mentioned it to the teachers and they thought it was likely the culprit. She'd just turned two at the time.

[hedra]

Okay, I'm skipping all the other replies (past Enu's), as I don't have much time today... will read later.

Ditto the drop-in and check out - Montessori is all over that. Just do not let them hear you or see you. If you habitually carry your keys in your hand, don't - mine recognize the jingle, and then it is no longer 'observation' but 'early pickup time'.

Also, ditto Moxie's 2-year-olds assessments. AND major ditto the read on whose issues/judgements are what.

So... here's my deal. My story is virtually the same as yours, except my mom at first wasn't all there (absolutely horrific situation for her, took her a while to start dealing), and then later thought she *was* successfully protecting me, strove to protect me, and *STILL FAILED* to keep me safe. The one abuser who she thought she was supervising strictly (her dad) managed to evade her and still assault me, and another who she never suspected ALSO managed to get to me (and I didn't tell her, because... well, I knew that my mom would make me deal, and heal, and handle it, and I absolutely knew I would physically die if I tried). Um, anyway, trust? Yeah, serious issue for me. I did a lot of therapy time, and I eventually discovered that yeah, my trust meter worked just fine. I just didn't trust my trust meter, and was hypervigilant about double-triple-quadruple checking everything until I couldn't even tell what my gut feeling WAS. No way to trust it then, and hey, then I get to not blame myself for messing up, too. Handy, that. Useless, but handy!

So... trusting. Even 'healed', it is hard to tell what is a good situation for a 2 year old. Even never hurt, it is hard to tell. I'll have to ask DH to recall how long it took for our oldest to adapt. I know he didn't start Montessori until he was nearly 3, and even then it was challenging at drop-off (involving DH staying for an hour each day for a while, IIRC, and then another year of bringing a lovie). And despite having adored his previous care situation, drop-off still was hell there regularly at the early-2 stage. DH really had the sucky part - he did drop off and got the tearful bawling leg-limpet, and I got pickups and got the gleeful joyful football tackle hugs. Meanwhile, I trusted the care provider (she was a superior communicator, which helped). More, I trusted the other kids in her care. They moved to her freely, cycling past her as they went about their tasks, touching down physically - brushing up against her with a hand, or climbing onto her lap, or just being nearby so she could reach out and touch their hair as they passed. As much as my radar for adults was "busted" from too much analysis and picking apart on my part, I could radar in on KIDS no problem. Radaring on my own kids, tricky... they are sending more than just 'comfort with the caregiver' signals, so it gets messy. They're also sending 'I love you and can't bear to be apart except when you're somewhere else' signals, and 'please don't forget how important I am to you' signals, and normal separation phase signals, and all the rest. Pack them into one package, and see if anyone can pick out the one that is about the caregiver... not easy. Watch the other kids, instead. They'll know if he's unhappy, as well.

IMHO, Montessori rocks, so I'm biased there. The wholeness of the child is so cherished... my incest history is one reason I chose it for me - I wanted a place where my child could grow up whole, in ways I never could, at least not then. So, even if that one center isn't right for you, I'll recommend you seek another Montessori program as a personal preference. Not that other programs don't also honor and cherish the child, just that Montessori is so well suited to the types of issues that we might come in with, given our history, as parents.

Learning to use the trust meter properly is tough. So be easy on yourself on that one. Learning to trust ANYONE with your child, regardless of history, also tough. Count the number of moms who never ever thought they'd stay home from their beloved careers until they first thought of someone else - ANYONE ELSE - being the caregiver for their child. You know this. You can trust that it is NORMAL to be paranoid about our kids, and it is not actually a symptom of your past. (I highly recommend the book 'An Adult CHild's Guide to What's Normal' for a reality check for how to be normal, what that actually looks like, etc - I was closer than I thought! It was a huge help for me to just have a picture of what normal function was, how much leeway normal allowed, etc.)

What else? Not sure if there's any other advice I can give you, except that there *is* such thing as being healed, done, and over it all. Healing is a long walk in the labyrinth, but there is only the one path, and if you keep going, you will find your way out. I'm so done that I don't even think about it unless I am prompted to, and it can be a shock to see it in writing, it is so not relevant to my life anymore. I know I'm done, my therapist said I'm done, my life says I'm done. It's nice. It's something I wish for everyone who's been where we've been. I'd love to be able to just grant it, magic wand-like.

Hang in there. I think you're doing okay. And that includes by asking here. You're doing what my mom called 'calibrating your intuition' - a useful process. :)

[Allison]

My first thought was that its only been 4 weeks! That's not all that long. Even if day care turns out to be a big failure, it seems that at least giving it a shot would take a bit longer than 4 weeks.

Shandra, you know best! Have faith in yourself!

[AmyinAustin]

We have been going through similar issues vis-a-vis crying/separation at daycare. We decided on a daycare setting instead of an in-home childcare for the trust reason, too. WAY more oversight in a classroom with other teachers and assistants coming and going all day. Anyway, he started almost exactly 2 months ago today and somehow manages to cry all day, except when he is being held OR is in the high chair watching all the other kids play (can anyone say coping mechanism?). My heart feels like it can't break any more. AND we have been feeling trapped because of a similar sitch with the husband (SAHD until last March) getting his dream job, and Grandma (caregiver since then) moving to CA for a year. The director of the school tried to calm my misgivings by saying that she once had a child who cried for 6 months! Which, of course, totally deepened them. Six months? In the life of a 18-month-old? Is the woman crazy insane? My husband has been sure it is a transitional malaise. The Nugget went from being home with Grandma (all day and not going anywhere or hanging out with other kids because, I think, Grandma isn't really a "people" person) to being thrust into an already formed community of children where, for the most part, chaos reigns. You know, 'cause they are all like almost 2 and junk. Things that have really helped me are: 1) I set a date for when we would start rethinking our childcare options (up to and including selling the nice car and one of us staying home); and 2) I happened upon this awesome book at the library called "Nothing but the Best: Making Day Care Work for You and Your Child" by Diane Lusk and Bruce McPherson. It really helped me figure out what was "normal" behaviour for a kid his age, how to talk to and ask questions of his teachers, and ALSO, it seems to have a little easier attitude toward developmental "should's" than most books I've read about kids. Which is nice. Also, through a combo of taking him to daycare early and rearranging my schedule a little, I have been able to spend 30-45 min. a day at daycare in the morning for the past 2 weeks. Easing his transition in and also actually showing him how to play with other kids by, well, playing with the other kids. (Sticky on the work clothes,though;) So anyways today!!! I was almost in tears when I left because he wasn't bawling his eyes out when I had to go!! He just held the teacher's hand and watched me leave. !!!!! I'm not saying that I expect this same thing tomorrow morning, but I have to say that I'm glad I listened to the old H and gave it some time. Oh yeah-- there were some reasons I married him. Trust was one of them. I guess what I am getting at is that I agree with the previous post by Lisa -- I mean, who do you trust in this situation? Also -yeah-- 4 weeks seems like forever, but maybe a little more time wouldn't hurt. Good luck, and remember You Are Doing A Good Job! Happy Mom + Happy Pop = Happy Child.

[hedra]

Hmmm... I'd also like more info on the tearful pickups. If you could describe the pickup exactly? Because M had tearful pickup issues, not just whiney-uppie-now-must-have-mommy-hugs-NOW but rigid, wailing, panic-attack pickups. That was a red flag - NOT, however, for the care situation, but in her case, a symptom of a lovely case of clinical anxiety. Exacerbated by the fructose malabsorption thing (she improved vastly after three days of no fructose at all, to the point that she went from being silent at preschool for 4 months straight, to 'chatty kathy' on day four). Anyway, we didn't change situations, the situation ITSELF wasn't the issue, but my 'hate to leave' thing was relevant for her - she needed a very slow transition, and needed highly ritualized drop-off procedures, and takes longer to adapt. Plus, she 'breaks' easily - her attachment process actually disrupts more easily than most kids due to the extreme anxiety. What would be 'disruptive' for some kids is 'life and death' for her. Talking to a psychologist about how to help her develop skills and coping methods was a big help. My radar was correct on that point. So we worked on maintaining attachment as much as possible the rest of the day, and making sure she had attachments going with the care providers (yes, both), and we worked on the anxiety separately. It wasn't something that just staying home would 'fix', this was a much bigger issue. Staying home would 'prevent instances or events' but would not help beyond that at all. So, we carried on, she's still in school, she still has anxiety, but she's also developing more skills for managing. For her, verbal prep is essential - she needs to be able to make a picture in her head of what to expect. Once she has that, she's fine. If there are changes to it, she needs to know, or she locks up. As she gets older, we'll teach her how to use her imagination 'for Good', so she can picture alternate situations arising that are also not scary/bad, and that work out okay. Currently working on the Dentist, who is not actually evil and mean and trying to hurt her, but who is actually kind, and sad that her teeth are broken and will try to fix them, even though she knows that fixing them isn't comfortable. That plus a low dose of valium, and she even remembered to hold her mouth open for the dentist the whole time, and was proud of how well she did. And asked to never ever go back, too, but hey, how many people don't want to go back to the dentist?

Anyway, that's another angle I didn't see covered here. I have two kids with noticable anxiety issues. There's some suggestion that anxiety can be programmed somewhat in utero by the mom's chemical markers, so abused moms may be contributors unwittingly to their child's anxiety level ... or anxiety that was genetic may have played a part in the mother having become a victim as a child, either way, or both. Definitely, I was an anxious child in some ways, but whether that was cause or effect, or both... no way to know. But my kids are not abused (at least, as far as is at all possible to determine), but there we go, anxiety present. The oldest was mildly anxious (subclinical generalized anxiety), and needed loads of reassurance on transitions, advance warning of changes in schedule, and needed 'what if' training so he could teach his imagination to work for the Good side. M also will need that, fairly soon. Despite the definite anxiety issues for both of them, and the loooooong trajectory for adapting to new situations, they've both absolutely thrived in Montessori, in daycare, etc. They love it there, and they behave well (sometimes better) at home when they're there. It was the actual DROPOFF PROCESS that was the kicker for us, and the radar wasn't for the program, but for the child's own issues and needs, outside norm.

Again, good luck.

[K.]

Moxie, I'm kind of curious that you read into this that her parents have lingering feelings of guilt, etc. Perhaps you have more info in the original email, but according to this, I don't see it at all. I don't see any evidence that Shandra has ever discussed incest issues with her parents at all.

What I read is a narcissistic mother manipulating the situation and her daughter to get her own ends, caregiving role of the grandchild.

AISI (as I see it), Shandra should treat it like all well-meaning but asshat advice: tell her parents that daycare is a decision for ONLY her and her husband to make. There is no need for a family meeting. She appreciates their concern and has heard it and will take it into consideration when she and her husband ALONE are making family decision, but asks them to please keep it to themselves in the future. If they don't like the daycare, they are excused from future Grandparents' Days events. Period. Thank you. Love you mom. Hug.

[hedra]

K., I guessed that was from the fact that they wanted to be the full-time caregivers in the first place. A lot of grandparents are NOT interested in doing full-time care, unless there aren't other options. Willing to, one thing. WANTING to, another.

But there are some who are happy to, eager to, desperate to, without any lingering issues other than 'hey, get to play with babies that aren't mine but I get to love wholeheartedly and they get to love me, and I'm not responsible for all those freakin' DECISIONS but I get to nose in where I like without guilt because it is alll about the love, HA!' which is more 'personal issues' than 'lingering feelings', LOL!

That said, your read could also be 100% correct. And I like the boundry marking. Very important, that.

[Suz]

I haven't read all of the replies, so I'm sorry if this is a repeat, but I *highly* recommend Protecting the Gift by Gavin de Becker. It was (and is) a tremendous resource for me, especially as an abuse survivor, in figuring out how to find trusted caregivers and how to read my instincts and reactions. Very smart book, very reasonable and direct, and the author provides a very detailed list of questions to ask any provider plus a description of warning signs.

[Cathy]

My daughter has been going to a center for daycare since she was 20 months old and will be turning 5 next December.

Here's what I've seen:

1. It took several months for La to get into a routine of being dropped off where she wasn't upset by it.

2. In the first month or so, she was also upset by being picked up. Not sure why - I think it was the transition.

3. You can call from work and see how she's doing. Or you can have your husband wait 10 minutes after drop off and send someone in the front to go find out how your child is doing so they don't see you/him.

4. Even at the ripe old age of nearly 4, special programs like the Thanksgiving lunch really mess up a kid - it throws off their routine and it's hard to say good by twice in one day. I think that saying good by after "Grandparents Day" is not a good place to judge.

5. When my daughter was having trouble in school (a biter in her class, a teacher who was not warm and caring), I could tell - She was in the "little 3's" class, and she suddenly had way more ear aches. Which she felt were her ticket out of school - only at the pediatrician's Happy Hour, they didn't find anything wrong.

I really like the idea of having the playgroup mom do an independant report for you.

[Megan]

My 20-month-old son went from a in-home daycare we were having issues with to a lovely daycare center. He's been there about a month now and has just in the past day or so stopped sobbing uncontrollably when we drop off. Today he cried a bit but stopped almost immediately. I like that his teachers always pick him up to calm him down.

Does your center have a window in the door? Ours does, and it has helped my heart tremendously to wait outside the door when we pick up and watch him happily playing with the other children before he knows we're there.

I have also asked the teachers several times whether he cries during the day, and they say no. As someone else said, I think it's in their best interest to work out any issues with the parents. Our DS is very sensitive and doesn't do well in new situations, so I'm not surprised that he's taking this long to transition. I've accepted that he may never be one of those kids who runs off to school, yelling a "see ya!" over his shoulder to me. And that's OK, although I think it's making me age a bit faster than I would normally... :o)

[LisaS]

I have to chime in with a different thought about the daycare dropoffs. My daughter is now five-and-a-half years old and just started kindergarten. I went back to work full-time (hello, health insurance, great to see you again) and put her in daycare when she was 33 months. Anxious and clingy since birth, she cried every dang day for two and a half months. The first week she cried all day every day (although she did sleep at naptime), then it simmered down to mere hours, then "just" crying at the dropoffs and for a little while after. In my efforts to ease the transition, we wound up developing a lengthy dropoff process involving her sitting on my lap for a while and then kisses and hugs and I-love-yous at various points around the room. It wasn't really helping her, and the teacher and then the director both suggested a quick, clean getaway. I "blamed" the teachers and told E that I couldn't stay long. We cut down dropoff from 20-30 minutes to three, and even though she was sad, she recovered much quicker each day. She still has several anxieties (officially General Anxiety Disorder), but I really credit the program for helping her come out of her shell, and transition to kindergarten was an absolute breeze.

[Sj]

My 2.4 yr old has been in the same in home daycare since he was 3 months old - he loves it there, we talk about it, but the past few months, dropoffs have gotten more difficult and when we try to leave the house he says he doesn't want to go and wants to stay home. He almost never actually cries when we leave, but will sometimes. I am just posting this to point out that 2 is an age that can be particularly difficult, even when there isn't a big transition to someplace new (in this case, I think one of the issues may be that a new baby started recently, and he alternates between being excited to "help" and wanting more attention).

Good luck Shandra - go with your gut, and some of the suggestions here to give you some data to work with. I agree with another poster - Grandparents' day sounds horrible - my parents are too judgmental in my house! I hate to imagine the comments I'd here about daycare.

[Cathy]

Oh, and I wanted to add that even with my relatively benign background, those early drop offs (leaving a very sad and upset kid at school) were completely counterintuitive to me as a mother. I would call my husband crying on the way to work to let him know(sharing the wealth).

[Shandra]

Wow this is great you guys. I am overwhelmed with your care and answers. I am at work so forgive me if I miss anything, I'm just answering questions right now:

I am confident this daycare meets all the provincial standards; we have a website here where you can look up infractions, etc. so on the basics we know it is fine. Turnover is very low - 2 teachers have changed out of the original 5 in the past 15 years; they are hiring two new ones this fall 'cause their numbers are going from 26 to 34. Age range is 18 mos - 6 yrs.

I'm kind of more concerned about his spirit and trust than anything more physical. As someone said, maybe daycare just is not right for him - that's my fear.

We have dropped in to pick him up early (to not upset him leaving again) but the set up is highly secured - you have be buzzed in, and the kids look up at the buzz, so we haven't really been able to sneak up on him. Love the idea of getting my friend to do it. I am calling her next.

I have been able to sneak up on the playground though, where he is sometimes after 4 pm, and mostly he has been sitting on his teacher's lap - not playing with the other kids or the trucks, which concerns me quite a bit. When he is with me and there are other kids, he is usually all over the other kids. And trucks! However, 4pm is not his best time on any day - he's usually cuddled then. But that's the worst sign I've seen, besides the tears at both ends of the day.

All the teachers seem very willing to hold him, at least when we are there. But if I am there I never see him make a move towards them, so I don't know if he finds that comforting.

His teachers report that he is doing fine and that he danced and sang yesterday. My parents said that when they were there on Monday, the day previously, he was "too terrified to cry" and that his teacher "didn't even understand that" and said he was fine. This is kind of exactly where my radar starts to break down on who to believe.

He is a really happy kid with us, but very strongly attached/high separation anxiety. Like if his dad goes down in the basement with the child gate closed, he stands at the top yelling until we are all On The Same Floor again.

He also is extremely sensitive - he seems to manage senory input okay, but he is a total emotional sponge and also has very, very good/sensitive hearing, which was one reason we chose the quiet small Montessori.

He manages transitions brilliantly if he is prepared for them for 10 minutes first, but if they are abrupt, he freaks. We told the school this and they said it really works, so we presume they have actually been doing it.

This transition was broadly abrupt 'cause we didn't really intend for me to go back to work, and we were on vacation the week before he started in the daycare so he was all over the place first, and the dates were all non-negotiable/refundable at that point.

His behaviour at home remains pretty much the same, although he seems 'more two' in the last month - he's very set on things going his way, and has been angry with me, which is new (I took this as a good sign that he was secure in my affection, but, dunno.)

I have read Protecting the Gift but didn't remember the daycare centre bits (I was obsessing on the nanny bits at the time) so I have ordered my own copy to arrive tomorrow.

Moxie is, I think, totally right about the guilt; my parents actually chose the morning of my daughter's funeral to apologize for having missed the incest, but that was the last time their facade of having been the perfect parents cracked. Also my son is about three weeks past the age that my medical records show an abuse incident likely took place, so it would be a trigger point for us all.

Thanks again everyone and I am reading avidly; you are wonderful.

[Amy]

I don't have time to read all the comments so hopefully this isn't too redundant:

IMHO- The surprise visit will only work if you can observe quietly for a few minutes without your son seeing you. The second he sees you-- it's pick up time in his mind.

My favorite data point- the parents of other children in my daughter's classroom (she is 16 months) who see her when I'm not around-- e.g. when she is not immediately thinking about my leaving her there or my taking her away from there. It is very helpful to know if she is engaged/content/etc when they are there picking up their children.

I concur with the others that your husband is a sound data point. He has the clearest view b/c he's not a part of your birth family nor invested in the success of the daycare center as a business.

Good luck!

[Charisse]

Shandra, first I want to say how much I appreciate all your comments and sharing about the difficult parts of your life. Your strength and openness are an inspiration.

Second, I like what lots of folks have said about unobtrusive check-ins by your friend.

Finally, to commiserate and back you up about the choice to decline your parents' offer. My FIL, the closes GP to us, has a tough history with my husband (no physical abuse, but some failure to protect from a nasty step-parent and some literal abandonment)...and he currently struggles with serious depression/anxiety and bipolar stuff. Despite all this, he really likes to see himself as helpful and desperately wants to babysit for Mouse. We've said no, pending his being stable for several months in a row, but it continues to be a difficult thing to explain to him and to everybody else in the world who's like "why not granddad--good grief, you've got free babysitting". Granddad himself manages to make Mr. C feel like he's being unsupportive and hurtful over this, constantly.

So, just to say, I understand and agree--we can't have Mouse spending long periods of time with somebody who doesn't manage emotions well and is susceptible to unexpected. debilitating panic attacks. You can't have your little one with somebody you don't trust to protect her. Your gut sounds really solid to me, and I think you'll be able to work out this transition just fine.

You don't owe your parents anything beyond respect on this, and that's true whether they recognize it or not. He's your kid, you're a wonderful mom, and you're doing great.

[wavybrains]

I'm sorry for your dilemma, but I wouldn't be too hasty to change schools and/or give in to your parents. Instead, I might ask the school if you could come in and quietly observe from the hall or a window w/o him seeing you. Also, he might have just been really struggling with seeing your parents out of context--especially if *everyones* grandparents were there, it might have just been an overwhelming day. Another thing might be to ask the school if there are any other parents of 2 year olds that you could speak to--or just do it yourself at pick up/drop off. Ask them how long their child took to adjust, and ask them how happy they are with the center.

[Ally]

"My parents said that when they were there on Monday, the day previously, he was "too terrified to cry" and that his teacher "didn't even understand that" and said he was fine."

In my honest opinion, this sounds manipulative. They're basically saying that they understand his emotional state and his teacher doesn't, and you can infer that, therefore, he should be with them. When everything else you've shared gives me the impression that the teachers DO understand his emotional state and his needs, and are doing their best to meet them, and the transition example suggests that they welcome your input and follow-up on it.

Having dealt with boundary issues with parents/caregivers myself, I'd trust the teachers over your parents.

That being said, we transitioned our son from a home daycare that he'd been at since 8 weeks to a center at 25 months. For 8 weeks he was known as "naked boy" because at some point during the day he'd strip and run screaming through the play area. We gaugued improvement by how long he lasted before the clothes came off. Eventually, he adjusted, but it was awful. Just awful. His teachers were wonderful, they rocked him to sleep for his nap, gave him cuddles, solicited input, shared all the little details with us, and yours sound very similar.

Even though he's happy now, he'd still be happier at home. With me. And frankly, I'd be happier at home with him. But those are the breaks.

I don't know if anyone has addressed this, but don't let yourself feel guilty for wanted to take advantage of this job opportunity. It's a double-edged sword, having a career that you love, yet half of you wanting to be with your child. I know all too well what it feels like. It's ok that he's at daycare. My advice is to give it more time, like another 4-8 weeks, and see where you are then.

[Lisa]

Just to throw it out there...my nephew turned 2 in August and has been going to daycare since he was about 13 months old. He used to have no problems with separation anxiety, to the point that he would cry when my sister picked him up because he didn't want to go home and was having so much fun. In just the past few weeks, he is having major separation anxiety, even though nothing has changed. Same teacher, same classmates, same schedule. This anxiety has been going on for several weeks and he's not sleeping well at night either.

My 19 month old daughter just started a preschool toddler program 3 mornings a week. Her classroom is 18 months to 3 years, and the teacher told me the 2 year olds are having a tough time with SA too.

From my limited experience, it doesn't seem unusual for kids this age to go through a phase like that. To jump the gun and think the school is wrong seems very premature to me. I would give it more time and reevaluate maybe a month from now.

[Ally]

I forgot to say that Jamie is almost 3. So this transition was almost a year ago.

[hedra]

Okay, you've got my radar beeping on the anxiety issue for him (emotional sensitivity), really. The 'too scared to cry' thing is what M was like, so that's well, hate to say it (due to the parental stuff, and will they go all power/arrogance if they find you think they're right about any of the details?), but worth examining. And no, if that happened, the teachers probably didn't recognize it. I had to show them with M, and explain what it meant, and how to read it. BUT, they did learn to read it, quickly. They had to hear the words 'clinical anxiety' for them to perk up completely - it is easy to over-read the drop-off anxiety when you are new to the school.

Learning to look for the rigid or softly zombied / glassy eyed / low-response / gaze avoidant physical state is tricky. My own mom missed it, and she's pretty darn astute. She thought 'shy' not 'paralyzed with terror'. Once the teachers 'got' that M would become paralyzed with terror at situations that might not even cause a blink in another child, they adjusted and aligned 100% with her needs.

So. Take that data point from your folks for ONLY what it is worth (that your parents noticed something that set off their radar, extra-tuned though it may be). And then talk to the care providers again, but more focussed on anxiety. If you look for info on Selective Mutism or childhood anxiety disorders, you may find some of the same symptoms/signs for them to identify accurately. Give them a checklist, so they have something simple to work against. They are not trained in psychology, so they need guidance. Write it out - don't just talk, they'll forget, they don't have a mental basket for it yet. Also, write out what signs he has at home for being emotionally overwhelmed. Mention that you don't expect him to be the same child at school as at home, but that you do note some patterns you want them to be aware of.

AND I'll also caution you on just avoiding the problem by dropping back out and staying home with him. That's called 'avoidance' which is a protective action that is normal for parents, and IS the usual first step in handling these issues. BUT, things cannot stay there, or there will be no progress. Avoidance is mainly what we did, for most issues until we met with the psychologist - we just ceased taking M to anything that would freak her out. School was working fairly well (she has an instant security blanket, in the form of her twin sister), but other events were not. It was AWFUL to have her paralyzed like that, too scared to cry. Heck, too scared to even reach for me. :(

Oh, and BTW, 'People looking at her' is a big one for her, and that can be sensory as well as emotional. Worth pursuing an evaluation on that, because interestingly, the EMOTIONAL sensitivity can be eased by some PHYSICAL stuff, such as large muscle group exercise. Honestly, I'd jump for an early intervention eval, because ANYTHING that helps will both ease his life and ease your heart. And missing it for a couple of years is not fun. Eval, and see what you get.

Plus side, it sounds like he's a peripheral learner, which makes Montessori an even better option for him. G, my oldest, is a peripheral learner - that is, he will pick up knowledge/information/context/etc. at a distance without being actively engaged in what is going on. SPONGELIKE is exactly spot on. Montessori is great for peripheral learners. :)

Good luck, still. I hear ya on the 'is this the right thing to do for him at this time?' thing... but, at the same time, there are about 2 million options between here and 'quit and stay home' that may make a world of difference. They include getting him assessed for anxiety and sensory integration (emotional counts!), having others who know him well (your DH, friends, anyone) observe him, changing drop-off/pick-up routines (I would arrive early for drop-off when we were doing the home care provider, so I could stay for longer, but still had a set leave time and ritual). Getting coaching for how to do drop-offs without cycling up anxiety is helpful - and yes, short ritual can be better than long elaborate ritual... long involved rituals may tell them that the thing that is about to happen is WORSE than they thought, otherwise, you would lose patience with their demands and shorten it! Buy in too much, and it provides the wrong message. Longer rituals may need to be less ritualized and specific. I recommend both "Your Anxious Child" and "Helping Your Anxious Child" as good resources, even if it is just for the understanding how to help with the significant separation anxiety.

[hedra]

Revising something here... if YOU have seen him be 'too scared to cry', then go with their data point as possible.

But unless *you* have seen him in that state at least a couple of times, they're probably manipulating their impressions for their ends.

I'd seen M be too scared to cry, reach for me, move, or speak. Literally rooted to the spot, rolling her eyes in terror just because someone looked at her, heart hammering when I picked her up. Unable to reach for or close her fingers around a toy because there were too many strangers in the room. Unable to reach for me, run to me, hide behind me, too scared to draw more attention. It was a banner day when we went to the doctor's office and she fled the play table and hid behind me when someone talked to her. The first time she EVER reached for me when she was emotionally upset (would do it for physical hurts, but not emotional ones) was when she was 15 months old. So, yeah, if you have seen the thing they say they saw, then they may be right. If not, far less likely.

[Ally]

"Revising something here... if YOU have seen him be 'too scared to cry', then go with their data point as possible.

But unless *you* have seen him in that state at least a couple of times, they're probably manipulating their impressions for their ends."

I'm glad you clarified that hedra, because I was wondering about it. Shandra hadn't mentioned anything like this, which is why I called it as manipulative bs. But perhaps your post will shake loose some recognition of behavior that she hasn't been able to put a finger on. If so, that's great. But if not, then I agree that it's likely to be manipulation.

[Amy]

Haven't read through all the comments (read first few... but hey, I'm *supposed* to be working) and want to chime in that "grandparents' day" is a horrible way to determine a child's comfort level. Even my 5 and 7 yr old get clingy at school when *anyone* in the family shows up for any reason. My 7 yr old, who LOVED kindergarten, used to beg me to take him home after lunchtime seasonal parties...

But what really bugs me about Shandra's question was the "family meeting" called to discuss the issue. I'm all for the village raising the child (my own parents and in-laws are VERY involved), but we are not a democracy. My children, my decisions. I frequently ask for advice and often even take it(!), but they are not raised by consensus. I guess that part irks me b/c I know my mother especially would like a larger "say" in decisions regarding my children... but our philosophies and capabilities don't always jive.

[me]

not enough time to read everything, sorry if this is repetitive.

you might be able to help the transition by taking pictures of the space, especially the teachers, and all the play areas. Reviewing these pics could help him feel more "ownership" of the space and the people/teachers. you could ask a teacher to help you and snap pics with your son painting, playing music, whatever the other activities are, and son with teachers. boys especially can lag behind with language, and having pics can really help them communicate. IMO, open communication between parents and children is *vital* in avoiding any abuse/unhappy situations, which it sounds like you're worried about.

If you or your husband can, take an afternoon off work and pop in. If you sneak in unannounced your son might not even notice you for a while. If he does... then you can just take him home early and not have to worry about a second separation.

I have "spied" on many daycares in my neighborhood - it's just that I'm SAH and happen to know a lot of the kids around. I have a friend who's 2yo (almost 3) daughter gives her holy h.e.l.l. at every dropoff - but I see her on the playground happy as a lark.

I think daycares are safer than a nanny situation - there are more eyes and ears at a daycare center than entrusting care to just one person... but I know many wonderful nannies too. It's all your own comfort level and gut.

Good luck!

[Maureen]

I was amazed how I really had to face my childhood issues when I became a mom to my twin boys. I really had to learn to stand up for my boys and my family and feel confident enough to be the parent. Input from others is fine and good but they are not part of the day to day and don't know the boys as well as my husband and I do. Also, parenting is such an open thing - so many ways to do it, some not so great, but many are great and still different. You and your husband get to decide your way.

Anyway, this is very rambly... I first have to say I completely agree with K's post. I had childhood issues with my divorced parents (both, but in very different ways). My mom and I have become closer after I had the boys - part of me thinks she sees this time around as an opportunity to do the parenting thing better (to me and also to my boys). But, at the same time, my boys are not a second-go-round parenting opportunity for her. So boundaries are important.

When I read Moxie's synopis of the problem, my first thought was that the mom and dad are trying to suck you back in (isn't incest partly a power thing?) to their drama. I'd second K's comments about telling your parents thanks for their input but no family meeting (that's not their right to call or demand and if you give in it will be harder to set boundaries in the future) is necessary. Your husband and you will discuss and decide what's best for your child.

You sound like a great, caring mom. I also second the support comments on your job - good for you for finding a dream position. Very hard to find and good for you for taking advantage of the opportunity.

[Toni]

With 38 comments, she definitely doesn't need mine...except that something similar happened to me this week.

My youngest, Bear, is 2. She had her grandparents visit her at school on Monday - and cried horribly when they came up to her - calmed down - and they cried again when they left. She's having similar issues when I drop her off - and occationally she cries when I come to pick her up.

I agree with Moxie in that this age is horrible for separation. I also think that sometimes, kids expect certain things are going to happen - and when someone comes in to a room that they weren't expecting...they get upset. So the grandparents coming upset your child - and that's also kind of too be expected. Not mentioned was how he is with them when it's a situation that he expects to see them. Does he shy away for awhile (my oldest is like that)?

Either way, I'd trust your gut. If you feel like he's better there - then keep him there. Grandparents (esp ones who think they are the world) tend to forget that their grandchildren are not their children.

Good luck!!!

[Eric]

I find it interesting that more people are commenting on the child issue than the grandparents issue, which is fine, but I think something more needs to be said about that. So this is my message to Shandra: DO NOT let your parents in any way influence your decisions on your child. They should have no say in how their grandchild is raised, they gave that up when they allowed what happened to you to happen. I don't know what that was, and probably don't want to know, but they are horrible, horrible people for allowing it. They should be given floppy clown shoes and rainbow wigs so they are easy to spot and easy to run over with my car.
Most people who were in your situation become abandoning or abusive fathers or marry abandoning or abusive fathers, and end up being a mess themselves. You don't seem like that, so kudos for being able to not be defined by your horrible past.
Clearly, they didn't make very good decisions raising you, so why should that have changed? If it was me, I wouldn't even let them into my life, let alone see him. I have no idea what they mean by "family meeting", but it sounds to me more like an opportunity to back you in a corner and manipulate you into giving them more control, just like before. It has earmarks of an intervention, which is essentially a form of de/re-programming. They're probably strong-willed individuals and are looking for a chance to gain control over you again. Do not let them do this. They are not part of the decision-making process. As Moxie is fond of saying, you are the mother, and you know your child better than any so-called child raising expert, including your own parents.
I hope this didn't sound too harsh, but I've seen a distinct problem in this country with people and government refusing to even acknowledge the _profound_ long-term effects that child abuse has.

[caramama]

Shandra,

I've been trying to figure out how to say this all day, and I'm still not sure it'll come out right. So please bare with me...

First, I wanted to thank you for all the great advice/comments you post on Moxie's site, especially the following comment in Moxie's Manifesto (philosophy): "My basic philosophy as a parent probably comes down to 'err on the side of kindness and love.'" I have made that my motto, and I've been known to chant it mantra-like in the middle of the night when my Pumpkin needs to be rocked back to sleep for the ump-tenth time.

Second, it sounds to me like you've picked a daycare that is in line with that philosophy. They rub his back to sleep, use your advice about transitioning him, and hold him on the playground when he doesn't want to play with others. Also, the general philosophy of the Montessori schools seems to align with your philosophy. So good job finding a great place for you son.

I'm not sure your parents/mother has the same philosophy, and I totally agree with Moxie's analysis of each person's perspective. I really think you should take their observations with a grain of salt, as it is colored by their own agendas, which may not mesh with yours.

All my other thoughts and ideas have been covered, but I would like to add my support for you finding your dream job and going back to work. Good for you, and therefore good for the family overall. The issue your son is having could be happening regardless of the change in routine, so try not to feel too guilty about getting to work at your dream job. And daycare might be good for your son overall, by giving him more chances to work on socialization skills and prepare for kindergarden.

Lastly, we moms are really great at feeling the guilt. It is especially tough if someone else is watching your kids, because they might not do things EXACTLY the way you want them done (my issue right now) and because we can't watch over them EVERY second of the day. I think that part of why you are questioning the daycare and your own instincts is simply born out of that guilt we moms feel when we go back to work. I wonder if you would give your parent's opinion on this as much credit if you were able to take the guilt factor out.

I hope that helps and that you are able to use some of the great ideas others have already posted!

[Foster]

I think dropping in is a great idea. I did not read more than one or two posts, so forgive me if I repeat anyone.

At the daycare where I work, the rooms all have doors with windows. This means that a parent could drop in and observe their child w/out the child knowing they were there simply by standing outside the room and looking in the window. I have had many parents do this on purpose at pick-up time b/c they wanted to see their child playing. I knew who did and did not want to be pointed out and it was rather cute.

Remember that YOU pay the daycare. They cannot keep you out and they WANT info from you about your son. Daycare providers LOVE talking with parents about their kids. The more we know from you, including some of the things you may fear for for your son, only help us to take better care of your child.

I agree w/ Moxies suggestion that this may be more about your parents being jealous of your son going to daycare rather than being w/ them. People can get VERY funny about things like that.

[O]

1) YES drop in and observe UNSEEN.
2) Transitions can be hard. Last year my then 3-y-o went 2x a week to what I thought was a great nursery school--fabulous teachers, nice kids, great playground, low-key. He cried Every Single Day getting out of the car. I was in agony but dropped in to see and you know what? He was fine when I looked in the window. Active, engaged, on task, interacting with the other kids. And I'd think we turned a corner, but the next drop off? Tantrum city.
I decided to find another nursery school. And then this week, right before next n.s. is about to start, I got a dream job. Boys, now 4 & 2, go together to the home of a 20+ year nursery school teacher where she has up to 5 kids at a time with the day structured like when she was at the nursery school. I thought it was smaller, in a house (=familiar environment), with his brother, fewer days than the nursery school would be...Still. Cries. Every. Dropoff.
I am now hoping he's over it by high school.
His 2 year old brother? No tears at all. Thrilled to go, thrilled to see me when I come. They are just their own little people.
So. That said, I echo the others saying, investigate, but trust your gut, and don't take visitors or drop off for normal times. I bent over backwards to find a place my son should, in theory, love--but it isn't home, and isn't me, so it isn't making him happy. But. I'm not homeschooling, so he needs to get used to it at some point.
And, final irony? As I am all but dragging him to the car this morning, he's crying miserably and wailing loud enough for our neighbors three doors down to hear, "Can't you just take me back to (last year's nursery) school? Please? I LOVED it there!"
Poor guy. It must be hard to be almost-4.

[Karen]

Shandra, I have to thank you for sharing your experience. The "who to trust" issue is constantly on my mind and I have huge guilt issues because I can't bring myself to leave my daughter with certain close family members. I am constantly going back and forth between, it's good for her to have a relationship with these people and she can still have a relationship with them if my husband or I are there. My in-laws have wanted to have my daughter over for an overnight for a while now and I just can't do it. She is only 3 years old, what is she going to get from an overnight?

Anyway, We also went with a daycare centre because we figured the more staff the merrier. My only worry about centre based care had been that my daughter wouldn't get the bonding she might get in a home care or with us. One of the things that struck me in your second post was that you said your son was sitting on a teacher's lap. IME I have found this quite comforting that the teachers take the time to hold my child and that my child is willing to be held. AG tends to be more comfortable with adults in general so this was her way of watching the other kids until she was ready to join in. She also tends to select certain teachers that she goes to for comfort. The end of the day seems to be difficult for a lot of the kids because the other parents are arriving for pick up and there almost seems to be an anxiety in waiting to see whose parent will arrive next. The anticipation can be quite distressing. AG has been in daycare since she was 10 months old and we still have moments of anxiety at drop off once in a while depending on what is going on in life, e.g. returning from vacation, expecting a new baby, different develomental stages. I also found at 2 that my very extroverted daughter started showing signs of social anxiety, particularly around other kids. I am not sure this is of any help but thanks again for initiating these great discussions.

[lydia]

All good comments, but I have a couple points to add:

I was lucky to have an uncomplicated and happy childhood -- yet I still have to struggle with this sometimes. In fact, right now we are looking for a part-time preschool for our 2.5 year old daughter and my mother (who I usually think is right on) is quite opposed. I guess I'm trying to say that I hope Shandra isn't feeling that having this issue indicates a problem with HER, i.e. a legacy from her abuse. I think any thoughtful mom will eventually face the question of "just how good is my radar anyway??" -- especially when her impressions differ from other people she's close to (happily or not).

Also, I think, for a toddler, a change from living with a SAHM to being in all day care is probably even bigger than getting a new sibling or moving. Not that any of those things need to be avoided, but there will probably be some pretty unhappy days. A child may be anywhere from a little "off their game" to downright miserable even in the best of care.

So I guess I'd do what most others are recommending: think about motives, do a little extra double-checking of the care and your son to see if it can silence your doubts, and also give it a little more time.

[Claudia]

Shandra,

I've just read this whole thread, and I have to say, holy cats. I don't know if your parents acknowledging their failure at protecting you at your *daughter's funeral* was good timing, or the most horrific thing they could have done, but just want to say I am so sorry for your loss.

A sick part of me thinks they were upstaging, but I don't know them.

I hope you are healing from that loss, as well as the loss of your innocence/childhood.

[Shandra]

Thanks again everyone. This has been so helpful I can't even express it. This will probably be a grossly long update.

Hearing about everyone's kids adjusting was really helpful. And the compliments are very kind, thank you.

As far as my parents are concerned, they are currently still in high drama mode (the phrase "Japanese mind cram" was thrown around yesterday by my father; of course none of the teachers or students happen to be Japanese...) but the basic information hasn't changed. I do think they really care about my son, I just think there is another something else going on, especially the more extreme they are getting.

My friend is checking up on my son today, but she frequently picks her daughter up earlier and said that she's surprised we're asking because my son has usually been pretty engaged when she picks her daughter up. So that was a relief. The pictures are a good idea too.

There are lots of windows, but there are bushes in front of them and as I said the school is fairly secure, so we really are limited in sneaking up sight unseen, which is a shame. But the directress suggested I try 10:30 when they are outside playing soccer tomorrow, so I will.

Yesterday's pickup went better, but he was a bit off his game at dinner/home, so it wasn't all good news... however, he's two.

My husband and I have decided to try at least one more week and then see where we think we are.

Hedra, I have never seen my son get totally frozen in fear for very long - once or twice, like when he went around the corner at the zoo and encountered a dinosaur exhibit that was roaring, and even that didn't last very long. Usually he wails... but then that is with me. I do think it's within the realm of his personality that he might get anxious like that. When he's been physically injured he tends not to make a huge fuss, for example. It was very helpful to hear about your experience.

So I talked to the directress and his teacher about it after school yesterday and they said that he does get quiet sometimes, and that they will watch for it now and see what they think today. The selective mutism was interesting because my son doesn't talk a lot when he is either very happy or upset, so I mentioned that too.

Eric, I didn't find your comments harsh but helpful. I do feel though that I should correct the perception that most abused kids become abusers. The reverse is true (most abusers were abused) but most abuse victims do not, in fact, go on to be full-blown abusers. (I don't have a reference for you here but you can look it up.) However my own experience from being active in the survivor community does suggest that yah, a lot of abused people do end up with "blind spots" that impact on their kids, like choosing bad partners or bad care providers, so that's one reason I am so freaky about trying to stay on top of mine. And yes, my parents gave up some say for sure (and will not be babysitting my son) but I don't want to blindly dismiss their concerns either.

[Maggie]

I think it should be pointed out (and maybe someone else already has) that whatever your parents saw that day has very little do with what your son thinks of school. He was in a room filled with strangers (the other kids' grandparents) and the routine of the day was probably completely off due to their presence. I taught preschool before my son was born and have seen many a kid freaked out by Grandparents' Day that would normally waltz into school without a care in the world. (Others react by becoming extremely hyper, some cry, some shut down, some cling to their gps.) How he behaved that day really gives no indication of what school is like for him on a regular day. It just tells you that he may be terrified of being in a room with a bunch of strange grown-ups (obviously something many kids don't handle well), and that he doesn't seem to draw a lot of comfort from his own grandparents (or he perhaps would not have been as scared as they say). So I would dismiss their observations on that day from your evaluation of the school.

[m]

This has been a really fantastic discussion and so many good points have already been raised. One thing that I wondered about was how familiar your parents are with Montessori and its philosophy? Is your son in a Montessori school where the children wear uniforms? If so, perhaps between that and some lack of knowledge about Montessori may have coloured their vision a bit. Many people my parents age (including my parents) are very skeptical about 'alternate' forms of schooling. Perhaps they heard some shoddy information before going and were ready to see terrible things like brainwashing.

I also completely agree with Maggie's comment above. It would freak me out if I was at work and everyone brought their parents/grandparents. Nothing would be normal and I wouldn't have a normal, peaceful day.

That, and it sounds like your parents have other issues, motives going on. I'd suggest telling them to back off, as nicely as possible (or not!).

[Eric]

Sorry, Shandra, I think I got my words up in a bunch while I was trying to be concise. There are children of abusers who become abusers, these are typically the men. The ones who end up with a "blind spot" are often the women. They seek out men who are abandoners or abusers, and then have kids, and that's what perpetuates the cycle (which is the point I was trying to get across). The abuse messes up their wiring, so they're compass is all spinning out of control. The reason is that sources of extreme trauma when they are kids turn into sources of attraction when they're adults. So they seek out what is familiar to them, they seek out a guy with the same personality type, and that personality type is an abuser. They reject the nice, boring guys, because they don't have the same level of arousal as those other men do.